HOPE Lite versus Full HOPE: Less filling but more lasting?
I am sharing the governor’s full statement on his proposed changes to HOPE and pre-k.
His changes apply to students now in college and receiving HOPE, which means that some students will have to come up with another $1,000 next year if they don’t make the grade to be Zell Miller Scholars, which brings full tuition. (You began school as a HOPE Scholar, and now you may be a Miller Scholar as well if you meet the criteria.)
No students are grandfathered in under the current HOPE rules, according to the governor’s spokesman, whom I called for clarification of a couple of points.
I asked how many times a Full Hope/3.7 student can lose the Zell Miller Scholarship, revert to HOPE Lite, and then regain Full HOPE. Once.
However, as long as those students maintain a 3.0, they will always get some HOPE. And the governor’s office said that students can upgrade to the Zell Miller level at the stated check points.
However, students now in college can only qualify for the Zell Miller Scholarship, the full HOPE ride, if they had a 3.7 GPA in high school and met the SAT/ACT score cutoffs.
So to be clear: That means that even juniors now at UGA with a 4.0 GPA all three years can never get full tuition if they did not graduate high school with a 3.7 GPA.
That means many students now in Georgia colleges have lost full HOPE for good, regardless of stellar achievement in college. They will only qualify for HOPE Lite.
I have already heard from parents who think the 3.7 GPA is too steep. They also think the 3.5 to keep FULL HOPE is too high especially for students at Tech in math and engineering. (My son has a merit-based presidential scholarship at a private college and has to maintain a 3.25 GPA to hold onto it. What do other colleges require to keep academic scholarships?)
(Please see prior blog to get more details on the GPAs required for Full HOPE versus HOPE Lite.)
To folks in the field: Are there any concerns that the higher GPA requirement to both earn and keep Full HOPE will dissuade students from tougher majors, such as engineering or economics?
Here is the full statement from the governor:
Gov. Nathan Deal today introduced bipartisan legislation that preserves Georgia’s cherished HOPE scholarship and Pre-K programs – among the most generous benefits in the nation — even as it stabilizes lottery-funded programs for future generations. Deal, along with Republican and Democratic legislative leaders, unveiled the plan on the campus of Georgia State University.
“Facing bankruptcy of the lottery program in 2013, I worked closely with members of the General Assembly to save Georgia’s prized jewel, the HOPE scholarship, for the next generation of Georgians,” Deal said. “With this plan we are going to maintain one of the most generous scholarship programs the United States has ever seen or will ever see. Even in the tough economic times we are facing, HOPE is going to endure, it’s going to thrive.”
Deal revealed legislation that will create the Zell Miller Scholarship program; the program, named for the governor who created HOPE, will maintain full tuition coverage for Georgia’s highest-achieving students.
“Zell Miller’s HOPE scholarship is a distinctly Georgian program that serves as a point of pride for every resident of our great state,” he said. “This plan today is endorsed by Zell Miller, and I’m honored to announce the creation of the Zell Miller Scholarship, which will serve as a reward to Georgia’s best and brightest students and will encourage them to remain in Georgia.”
Under the new legislation, Zell Miller Scholars will include the top 10 percent of HOPE scholars under the present system based on both a 3.7 GPA and a 1200 SAT or 26 ACT score. These scholars attending any public college or university in the state will be awarded full tuition scholarships, while those attending private institutions will receive the full private HOPE award.
Deal assured all of Georgia’s HOPE partners that all three of the lottery-funded programs — Pre-K, HOPE Scholarship and HOPE Grant — have been protected and current funding ratios for these programs will remain the same.
Beginning this fall, students with a 3.0 GPA attending Georgia public colleges and universities will receive 90 percent of the FY ‘11 standard tuition rate. To ensure that limited resources are used to best honor the original intent of the HOPE program the legislation will: Eliminate funds for books and fees, eliminate funding for remedial classes, cap eligible hours at 127 and ensure that HOPE scholars are prepared for college-level work by requiring these students to take a certain number of high school rigorous courses.
When discussing Georgia’s youngest scholars, Deal said Pre-K will continue to receive one-third of all lottery-funded expenditures and will remain a voluntary, universal, free program serving 4-year-olds across the state regardless of a family’s economic status.
In order to make several programmatic changes to Pre-K, Deal announced that the state will move from a six-and-a-half hour day to a four-hour day.
“By removing rest time and creating new efficiencies, we can minimize the decrease in instructional time and bring our program more in line with other states and many private preschools,” he said.
Deal closed by citing a verse from one of his favorite hymns: “Strength for today and bright HOPE for tomorrow.”
“We are taking the appropriate steps today to strengthen the HOPE balance sheet, ensuring that future Georgians are afforded the same great opportunities as today’s college and university students. Make no mistake, even after these needed reforms are implemented, Georgia’s invaluable HOPE will endure and continue to set Georgia apart.”
Other changes to of note:
Pre-K
Georgia remains one of only four states to provide a universal Pre-K program
Adds 5,000 slots to address the Pre-K waiting list in the state. Currently there are around 9,000 on the waiting list in Georgia.
Increase of transportation funds.
Increases extended day funds by 4.5 million, tripling the amount currently paid for these slots for at-risk studentsHOPE Grant
Requires students to earn a 3.0 GPA by the first HOPE check point, once enrolled in technical college courses
Provides that students who already possess a postsecondary degree are ineligible to receive the HOPE Grant
Establishes a firm cap of 95 quarter hours or 63 semester hours for all students.The Georgia Lottery Corporation
Limits bonuses awarded to Georgia Lottery Corporation employees to no more than 25 percent of their base compensation and conditions bonuses on an increase in net proceeds from the prior year transferred to the Lottery for Education Account.
Lowers the commission paid to lottery retailers from an average of 7 percent to not more than 5 percent on gross sales.Need-Based Aid
HOPE Scholarship funds will be paid in full without taking Pell eligibility into account. Pell-eligible students will then be able to use these federal funds to cover the costs of college-going expenses beyond tuition costs.
$20M will be appropriated to the one percent loan program and Georgia Student Finance Commission will work to raise private matching funds for $10M of this investment. These student loans can also be forgiven altogether if loan recipients become certified and teach in a public K-12 school in the STEM field. Each year of service in the classroom will forgive one year of the student loan.–By Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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177 comments Add your comment
karen
February 22nd, 2011
12:57 pm
I understand the need for changes to the way Hope is disbursed but as a Kindergarten teacher and a parent of a college student, I would much rather Pre-K be abolished than to take money from the college student. Since Pre-K isn’t mandatory, we see a huge disparity in students when they enroll in August. The ones who went to Pre-K are more prepared for school where the ones who didn’t are far behind academically.
karen
February 22nd, 2011
12:59 pm
Just saying that if Pre-K isn’t mandatory then it’s not really preparing all 4 year olds anyway.
SUSAN
February 22nd, 2011
1:07 pm
i AGREE…GET RID OF 4 YEAR OLD SO CALLED PRE-K! IT SHOULD BE CALLED FREE DAYCARE!
DekalbGuy
February 22nd, 2011
1:09 pm
What do the changes to HOPE mean for summer school? Will eligible students still receive HOPE to cover the cost of summer tuition (either at 100% or 90%, depending on the criteria that have been set)?
Karen G
February 22nd, 2011
1:15 pm
I am outraged that Gov. Deal cut the 2 hours off of the pre k day. Of course that limits learning time, but actually cuts teacher salaries by $10,000 (TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS) less. The Pre K program requires teachers have Bachelor degrees and teach by the Georgia Performance Standards. The program will lose it’s best and brightest teachers to other professions thereby creating an unfortunate ripple throughout the Pre K system. This decision will collapse Pre-K’s who depend on lottery money to stay in business, it will affect parents who will now have either pay for aftercare or quit their jobs so they can stay home with the children. I know Kindergarten teachers know the difference between a child who has been to Pre K and one who hasn’t. College kids can work to pay for some of their tuition. Four year olds can not work to help pay for their education. Stop the maddness
Gary
February 22nd, 2011
1:16 pm
Susan….I disagree. My 4 year old is currently in Pre-K and it is much more than free daycare. He is able to write his name, say the alphabet, count to 50, and tell me about shapes, animals, stories read to him, and upcoming field trips and what he learns from them. This is far more than what he could in August and he is excited about going to kindergarten and learning more.
I know not everyone agrees and there are some who use it as free daycare. However, the majority of the parents at the school we attend are really focused on the education of their child and GA Pre-K helps with that.
Karen G
February 22nd, 2011
1:18 pm
SUSAN Have you had a child go through Pre-K?
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
February 22nd, 2011
1:26 pm
What are the rigorous high school courses HOPE scholars will be required to “take?”
Will the GPA-criterion subsume a minimum GPA in these rigorous courses?
Shivam Kumar
February 22nd, 2011
1:33 pm
The number one cut should be from community colleges. They pay less tuition, and yet get full hope. Take example Georgia perimter. Students recieving hope there now, recieve 4120 in HOPE, but pay 2300 in tuition, and receive the remainder as a refund check to do as they please. WIth this new plan, students at GPC who have higher than a 3.7 receive even MORE money even though their tuition is paid for already. So basically Nathan deal is telling me to go to GPC instead of UGA. smart move.
MannyT
February 22nd, 2011
1:34 pm
I can live with the basics of this plan, but two things stand out. First, the grade inflation pressures will remain and are likely to increase as students lobby for a 3.7 gpa. Second, the students that are being steered toward teaching the hardest subjects are those who have falling achievement. Not sure that is a good way to attract teachers.
Aquagirl
February 22nd, 2011
1:35 pm
@ Doc Spinks, the “rigorous” courses are laid out around p 22, or line 778 of the document Maureen linked in the first sentence.
Atlanta Mom
February 22nd, 2011
1:46 pm
Shivam Kumar
I have never heard that everyone gets the same amount under “HOPE”. If that’s the case, clearly, that’s where the funds need to be cut.
Anonymous2
February 22nd, 2011
1:47 pm
So the bottom line question is how do we fight this legislation? Afterall, this is “proposed” legislation, not a final decree…
Atlanta Mom
February 22nd, 2011
1:50 pm
Maureen,
Your concern about engineers passing on that major due to less HOPE? No way. People who want to be engineers are in a class by themselves. I know, I have one. Also, many of the students at GT lose their HOPE after freshman year as currently administered. That’s because GT has many many classes with an average GPA of 2.0.
Shivam Kumar
February 22nd, 2011
1:50 pm
I know about 5 people currently at GPC and GGC who are recieving the same amount I am at uga. It’s because they base the amount of hope on the standard tuition rate that tech, southern, state, uga etc. charge, but the community colleges charge less than that standard rate.
Local girl
February 22nd, 2011
2:04 pm
I certainly understand the need for these changes and would support most of them. However, I do think it is unfair not to grandfather current college students in for the HOPE full vs. HOPE lite. College students who have managed to maintain a 3.5 or 3.7 GPA in college should get their full HOPE, regardless of their grades in HS. This aspect seems particularly unfair to me and only serves to punish the hardest-working students. We know that sometimes HS grades are inflated because of HOPE, but I don’t think colleges have ever been accused of this. These students have definitely earned their grades and should be rewarded for it.
catlady
February 22nd, 2011
2:11 pm
What about that $20Million that will be in very low intest rate loans? Where will they cut that from? I am assuming it is taxpayer money, with an additional 10 m they hope to get donated (probably for some sweetheart Deal like taking it off your taxes) And how will they pay the salaries of those required to process it, and collect it? And what about defaults? Who will pay for those? Get ready, boys, the hand is heading for YOUR pocket!
We all know. It will be the taxpayers. Folks, you are being had. We know this is a poor Deal for the taxpayers.
$400 in cut to the private colleges! Are you kidding?
Much of this ranks right up there with the stupid pet tricks. Ill conceived, to say the nicest.
Nicely Done
February 22nd, 2011
2:12 pm
@ Local Girl, if you are not happy with any HOPE funds you get, you can always decline them.
Tech Student
February 22nd, 2011
2:14 pm
If what Shivam is saying is true, it is ridiculous that we should face the same cuts as people who are receiving a rebate on their HOPE scholarship! Their refunds should be eliminated and used to fund the tuition of students who need the assistance. While this doesn’t affect me, the fact that a student who now makes a 4.0 in college will have no chance at the full HOPE because of the 3.5 they made in high school is terrible. What are these students supposed to do about this?? It doesn’t seem fair.
FBT
February 22nd, 2011
2:17 pm
Pre-K needs to go and especially the free after school daycare. I believe Karen made a valid point that kindergarten students are still entering the classroom at different levels because all students are attending pre-K.
Double Zero Eight
February 22nd, 2011
2:32 pm
Maintaining a 3.7 at Tech or UGA is tougher than
maintining a 3.7 at the smaller universities.
Some majors are tougher than others. There are
built in disparaties that most choose to ignore.
Pre-K is a waste of money. In most instances,
it is subsidized day care. There is no data to
support that Pre-K has favorably impacted the
high school graduation rate, or the number of
participants that have successfully completed
college. I doubt if the state has even tracked
this data.
Aquagirl
February 22nd, 2011
2:34 pm
No, Karen’s point was that kids who attend pre-K are better prepared for school. This means it’s not just daycare, it provides actual academic advancement. Duh.
But when you match that up with middle class welfare in the form of HOPE scholarships, guess which program people will discount?
East Cobb Parent
February 22nd, 2011
2:35 pm
I’ve never been a fan of the Pre-K. My daughter never went to pre-k but knew her letters, colors, shapes etc at 3. Our youngest attending a private Pre-K program which was only 4 hours. Both kids were well prepared for K. I think our son was over prepared as many of the kids did not know their letters or numbers. And my son was reading simple books. I realize that I may be in the minority regarding pre-k, I just have never seen the benefit.
redweather
February 22nd, 2011
2:35 pm
The money provided to HOPE Scholars varies and depends on the type of institution you are attending and your specific enrollment.
Interested Participant
February 22nd, 2011
2:38 pm
@Double Zero Eight….the state does track that data. Now, what they do with it, I am not sure. But in our Student Information system every student has to be classified as having attended Ga Pre-K or not. So the DOE has this information on every student in the system. Not sure if they doing any analysis yet or not.
future teacher
February 22nd, 2011
2:42 pm
If Pre-K teachers are going to have their salaries cut by 10K then those teachers are going to want to find K-5 teaching jobs which is going to further enhance the problems with the oversaturated job market. On the other hand, something has to be done to save HOPE. I think that college freshman should get reimbursed tuition if they mantain a 3.0 after their freshman year. That would save a lot of money from all the freshman that either do poorly or drop out.
Shivam
February 22nd, 2011
2:45 pm
future teacher
Some students cant afford to pay tuition from the beginning, alternate of your plan, if you dont obtain a 3.0 or better freshman year, you have to repay the money you recieved from hope, if you obtain that 3.0, you dont have to repay hope.
GSU Student
February 22nd, 2011
2:49 pm
I do not even remember what I made in high school. I have succeed and worked so hard for three years, and I might be getting punished for some grade I made 7 years ago!! That is totally flawed. There should be some type of grandfather clause for this scholarship (at least for the high school clause).
Shar
February 22nd, 2011
2:51 pm
As could have been expected, this Administration’s proposals are moronic. They absolutely fail to address two of the most egregious side effects of the HOPE program: High school grade inflation and the failure of many, perhaps most, students at UGA and Tech to maintain their HOPE eligibility after the first year. The GPA requirement should remain as it is (since it is relatively toothless due to grade inflation) but should be coupled with a national norm, such as the SAT, the ACT or the AP exam, to promote actual learning and mastery instead of grade manipulation at the high school level. Changing the college-earned GPA is also ill-advised, as it effectively discourages bright students from taking courses outside of their comfort zones, and instead steers them toward the easiest courses and the easiest graders. The award should also be made a reimbursement rather than an upfront payment, so that parents and students have some skin in the game, and there is a strong disincentive for students to spend their first year playing Beer Pong and then disappearing from the university, having wasted $8,000 partying.
It is manifestly unfair to yank full HOPE from those students who did not achieve a 3.7 in high school and are current students. Those students fulfilled their part of the HOPE bargain and have no means of addressing these changes now; they should not be penalized for failing to meet retroactive requirements any more than current high school students should be ineligible for failing to take whatever “rigorous” classes are mandated for entering freshmen.
Finally, Deal and his dopes have decoupled HOPE from tuition without setting any limits on tuition increases. This way, they can continue to take money away from the education budget and redirect it elsewhere (which has been the root cause of the UGA System’s massive tuition increases in the last few years) leaving students to make up the difference. Tuition and fee limits would at least temper the many hands in the Legislature that grab education dollars for personal projects. Go Fish in Oaky Woods, anyone?
Pat
February 22nd, 2011
2:59 pm
I understand the need to make changes in the HOPE program but cutting money from the students attending college will only hurt our state. The future of Georgia are these students in college and if they cannot get HOPE many will not attend. The money will not be available and having to pay loans back will not be an option. Governor Deal needs to find other ways to help HOPE. There is so much money wasted in our state that could be applied to this program.
Public & Private Parent
February 22nd, 2011
3:05 pm
Wow, everyone does realize that free/subsidized college by a state is rare…right?
HOPE
February 22nd, 2011
3:07 pm
Public and private parent
You also realize that a majority of the students choose to stay in georgia is because of hope right?
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
3:14 pm
Folks, the issue has a lot to do with the fact that the USG unilaterally acted in regard to tuition increases. The USG did this without considering OR ignoring the fact that these increases would have negative consequences in regard to subsidizing student tuition with HOPE dollars. Deal inherited this mess and, as I’ve said on the other blogs today, while I was initially upset by this, the reality is that this is the best method.
I know some of the people working on this proposal – they are all smart individuals. They are representative of some of the best minds in this state – many homegrown and graduates of Tech, UGA, State, Emory and others. The Governor’s office and the legislative leaders looked at all of the proposals, ran the models and this solution is the one that makes the most sense. If you want to blame someone, blame the University and College Presidents and the USG for enacting the tuition hikes.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
3:17 pm
@Shar – The governor will be tackling the USG problem soon enough. He’s not just going to let the same practices continue.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
3:18 pm
@Shar – also, the SAT requirement addresses, in part, the grade inflation issue.
the prof
February 22nd, 2011
3:20 pm
I see it from both ends as I have multiple children in Pre-K (currently) and instruct college students. I’d much rather we invest in getting 4-5 year olds off to a solid foundation that what I see on the other end…
Public & Private Parent
February 22nd, 2011
3:21 pm
@HOPE of course I realize that. But do your really think a good student who NEEDS the scholarship will turn it down because it pays 90 percent instead of 100%? Not many will. UGA tuition is $8700. 10 percent cut means parents/students have to come out of pocket $870. Over a years time that’s an additional $20 a week that parents or students will have to make to cover the additional cost. Still sounds like one heck of a deal to me. Unfortunately my kids are in elementary school and HOPE will be long gone by the time they get to college – thus I’ll have to do it the old fashioned way…and pay.
Concerned Student
February 22nd, 2011
3:22 pm
I believe that it is completely unfair to take HOPE away from students who didn’t get a 3.7 in high school, but have such grades now in college. I finished high with a 2.97, worked hard my first year in college and currently have a 3.84. It seems unfair that although I have excellent grades in college, I will be punished for high school errors. There needs to be a grandfather clause for students already enrolled in college. Also, taking away fee money is a big thing. The fees at Georgia State are currently more than $800.00 a semester.
Tech Student
February 22nd, 2011
3:25 pm
I don’t think the 3.7 high school GPA requirement should be enacted for students currently in college or the students graduating high school this year. There isn’t anything those students can do to work for that GPA at this point. Students who come into high school once this act is in effect can know what they are working for to achieve it. Letting these high school seniors think “Hey! I’ve got a 3.5, my college tuition will be paid for! Great!” Then telling them “No, just kidding, you have fallen just short!” is just cruel.
Tweets that mention HOPE Lite versus Full HOPE: Less filling but more lasting? | Get Schooled -- Topsy.com
February 22nd, 2011
3:26 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Samantha Davis, Maureen Downey. Maureen Downey said: HOPE Lite versus Full HOPE: Less filling but more lasting? http://bit.ly/fLLXN9 [...]
Local girl
February 22nd, 2011
3:31 pm
@Nicely done – I am not sure I understand your comment, however, I will say that I do not receive any HOPE funds, and thus have nothing to accept or decline. This does not affect me personally, but I am an educator and it certainly affects students that I know. While I do not have any complaint with changing the rules for upcoming students, I do feel that it is unfair to change things midstream for students who have worked hard in college. Of course students know how lucky they are to receive ANY money from their state for college, but this is also something they were promised and have been working hard to continue receiving. I don’t have a problem with asking them to maintain a higher GPA, but if they have done so, I don’t think they should be punished for not having a 3.7 in high school when that was not the requirement that was expected of them at the time. This is impacting only the best and the brightest students, who are the ones that the HOPE scholarship was meant to help (and retain in GA schools).
Tweets that mention HOPE Lite versus Full HOPE: Less filling but more lasting? | Get Schooled -- Topsy.com
February 22nd, 2011
3:34 pm
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JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
3:36 pm
I’ll admit the “midstream” change is hard, but that should tell you how dire the situation is. Again, this is what you get for electing Sonny (two terms) and Cox. Together they managed to really screw education in this state. Throw in the fact that Sonny never really addressed the USG issue and you have a recipe for disaster. This is the disaster.
D
February 22nd, 2011
3:41 pm
@Karen- You want to cut pre-k because it isn’t mandatory. Since when is college mandatory? Cut it all and give it to K-12 schools.
Top School
February 22nd, 2011
3:52 pm
Not worth my time. I don’t have any children.
Double Zero Eight
February 22nd, 2011
3:56 pm
I bet the Georgia World Congress Center Authority will
end of wasting several hundred million dollars to help build
a new open air stadium for the Falcons.
We have our priorities screwed up in this state!
MPrice
February 22nd, 2011
4:05 pm
I do think that the Pre-K program should be eliminated in full. It is a day-care. I do think the remedial college classes should be eliminated in full. If you cannot pass a college class then you should be in high school taking a class to get you ready for the college classes. I do not agree with the other changes. I think doing just the 2 changes would make HOPE balance out.
blackbird13
February 22nd, 2011
4:08 pm
@shivam
Not true. Hope pays full tuition at public colleges, but students do not keep the difference at cheaper schools. The only possible “refund” is if the book fee isn’t spent on books. You may have acquaintances who get additional grants–not HOPE– related to low income, or other scholarships, and thus they would get money back after tuition and fees are paid. I have seen account statements from GPC and GSU and HOPE currently pays the respective tuitions in full–but not any more. Check your facts.
blackbird13
February 22nd, 2011
4:31 pm
I read the bill, but I’m not clear on whether students already in college would continue to receive full tuition if they have a 3.5 or above. Surely this is the case. It would not make sense to go back to high school qualifications for those already in college.
blackbird13
February 22nd, 2011
4:40 pm
The language in the bill that would eliminate current college students with a 3.7 or above from ever being a “Zell Miller scholar” is poorly thought out. It leaves in place a system whereby high school students can come in on full HOPE, drunk and flunk out of college after a semester or two, while the very highest performing COLLEGE students get HOPE lite, as Maureen termed it. Where is the logic or fairness in that?
Dan
February 22nd, 2011
4:45 pm
So am I reading this correctly the difference between the full HOPE and HOPE light is $1,000 a year?
Shivam
February 22nd, 2011
4:45 pm
@blackbird
I did check my facts.
I have also seen my own account statement at uga, and my friends at georgia perimiter, he is low income, but he recieved 4120 from HOPE. I, also, Recieved 4120 from HOPE.
Dan
February 22nd, 2011
4:50 pm
While the 3.7 is a bit steep, for a $1K a year, kids could save that by switching to kroger cola instead of Coke, (or more likely PBR instead of Bud light). Fact is a little belt tightening is a learning experience as well, and if $4k of student loans is too much of a burden upon graduation, well the whole thing really isn’t worth it anyway
highschooler
February 22nd, 2011
4:50 pm
I do not agree with this plan AT ALL! I feel that if they were going to implement something like this there should have been like a 4 year warning or something. They can’t all of a sudden spring this upon seniors who are about to graduate and have NO opportunity to do anything about it. I personally am a high school senior with a 3.3 GPA and I have only taken AP and Honors courses. All throughout high school our entire class has been promised that HOPE would cover full-tuition, so what in the world am I supposed to do about my GPA in 3 months before I graduate! It’s not fair that a peer of mine who has only taken taken a couple of Honors Courses, has a higher GPA and just so happened to do well on the SAT gets full HOPE and I get partial.
And in response to the 3.7 stuff… picture this…
You and your best friend Johnny go to the same high-school.
You have a 3.6 and Johnny has a 3.7.
Nathan Deal decides inform you of this plan like practically 2 days before you graduate (moral: you can’t change your GPA)
You and Johnny go to UGA… matter of fact you are roomates.
Johnny maintains a 3.5 and you bust your butt to maintain a 4.0.
Yet…Johnny still gets full-HOPE by doing the minimum while you get partial…
messed up huh.. :/
cut spending elsewhere…..idk where…but not to the kids of YOUR future…
TeachFirst
February 22nd, 2011
4:52 pm
@Susan
Can a kindergarten teacher tell which students in his/her class attended pre-k? Probably.
Can a third grade teacher tell? Absolutely not. There is no evidence that pre-k makes a long term impact on a child’s academic success.
MiffedMom
February 22nd, 2011
4:59 pm
@ highschooler
Your passionate words say it all!!! As the mother of a similar student I could not agree with you more…
Dan
February 22nd, 2011
5:00 pm
Highschooler, life is not fair, perhaps Johnny is a Chem E major and you are taking Recreation Management, in which case Johnny could probably help you with your homework. There is no reason to complain about FAIR when you are given something, if you receive $0.25, it is more than you had before, not so impactful but more than you had. Kids that would be adequate caretakers of the future, understand that and accept the challenge.
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
5:02 pm
I understand the poor economy has a large role in the state of finances, but the bottom line is that unless colleges start living within their means, the students and parents will continue to be hit with outrageous bills. Why, pray tell, is anyone talking about tuition increases? To pay the fat salaries at our colleges while the rest of the country is hemorrhaging today, with a few exceptions. Most of a college’s expense is salary. Period, paragraph. They and the medical community seem to be the only ones who think they can have huge and continuing increases. Their sense of entitlement is truly amazing. Roll back these exorbitant salaries and get rid of pre-K (society has fared fine before the advent of pre-K), problem solved. Too, the 3.0 GPA was always a joke. That’s basically a C that has been inflated to a B just to get in the door. The minimum should be 3.5. Further, it should be need based. There is no excuse for some rich kid whose parents are fully capable of paying to get a free ride.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
5:18 pm
@ Weating me out – No, you’re wrong. Faculty haven’t had yearly raises in over five years. The costs are things like apartment-suite dorms, high-end furnishings for those dorms, flat screen televisions for the student centers and common areas, video-game consoles, rock walls, fitness centers, etc., etc., etc.
blackbird13
February 22nd, 2011
5:24 pm
@Shivam
Taking someone’s word for it is not checking the facts. You are spreading misinformation based on hearsay. HOPE does not refund money to those who have cheaper tuition bills because of the school they attend. GSU tuition for 12 hours: $2248. Amount HOPE paid: $2248. Now, if they have a Pell grant, they may be getting a refund. Otherwise, your friend is fibbing or you are misunderstanding him or her.
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
5:28 pm
Beg to differ. Check my facts. A typical college, whether UGA or other large school, compensation (including salary, wages and benefits) is 2/3 of the total college expense. This is nothing new. Colleges and the medical community has been gouging the American people for at least 30 years.
Old School
February 22nd, 2011
5:31 pm
HOPE really has become welfare for the middle class. Everyone is complaining about the amount of money they get even though they don’t do anything to earn any of it. HOPE is not the reason for making good grades; kids were expected to make good grades before HOPE. Considering the economy, you should be thrilled to get anything. And for those of you current college students complaining about not retroactively getting the extra “Zell Scholarship” money, my son graduated from high school in the early 90’s, had over a 4.0 gpa, and got no HOPE. Should I be able to go back and retroactively get some money for him?
David Hoffman
February 22nd, 2011
5:32 pm
Bad Pre-K decision. As others have noted the college students can go to work full time for a few years and save up money for the expenses HOPE will not now cover. 4 year old children need full support to learn. 4 hours a day is too short and will create increased expenses for parents, and less prepared kindergartners. The Pre-K program was underfunded as it was. Not enough to properly cover construction expansion expenses for high quality facilities.
I do like the SAT/ACT requirement. That kills the grade inflation problem. The ACT and SAT administrators cannot be pressured to increase scores.
The reduction of the bonuses paid to retailers for winning tickets is short sighted. The expenses to run the lottery and the lost opportunity costs may be enough to get some to reduce support for all those scratch off games that take up space if the overall compensation is reduced for the owner
The reduction in lottery bonuses for the GLC employees is mean, envious, spiteful, and short sighted. The bonuses helped reward employees for achieving greater overall levels of revenue for the lottery funded education programs. Enthusiasm for creating new revenue generators such as the KENO system will be less. The KENO game was a complex system that required long hours of negotiation with bar owners, frequent in person visits during all bar operating hours, and in person demonstrations for customers during bar operating hours. How much enthusiasm will there be for a new program like that if the incentive is reduced?
Mary
February 22nd, 2011
5:33 pm
Jacob Locke – seems like these ultra-’smart people’ are lacking common sense. What happened to means testing? – the Hope had it to begin with and disolved it when it generated a surplus. No surplus now – bring it back. Raise it to 150,000 for BOTH Hope and Pre-K. I know many professional folks who take advantage of the program who could and would afford to pay for pre-k childcare. The children who need the pre-k most are the ones that won’t come anywhere close to an income cap. RIDICULOUS to make it cover only 4 hours/day. Bad for faculty and bad for working parents. EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS is to make current recipients ineligible for full Hope if they didn’t get a 3.75 in high school. Seems like eliminating fees/books should generate enough to make it solvent. That will cost my UGA sophomore another $2,000/year. Not forcing a cap on tuition rates when you are so wishy washy about what will be covered in the future is also bad.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
5:38 pm
@Mary: Unfortunately, we’re beyond that now. Trust that every scenario was analyzed and modeled. Drastic times.
Boatfoot
February 22nd, 2011
5:39 pm
Is that a weighted or unweighted GPA for High School. Every schools system, county and city, sets their own +5 points for honors, +10 for AP, then you have home schooled and dual enrolled (kids actually taking college classes). On the college side, a 3.5 for engineering at Ga Tech is a little harder than a History degree from Valdosta State. The you have students in honors colleges vs non-honors colleges.
Why not divide the money up from a large pool and give to each institution of higher learning based on tuition costs and enrollment. Then each college can determine their requirmments to get the scholarships and they can institute additional levels. They already admit by GPA, SAT/ACT, rigor, and other items. They also have standards for honors college entrance.
Maybe Ga Tech may want to set the in college GPA to 3.25 for full tuition, maybe UGA would want to give honors college recipients true full -rides including room & roard or varying levels. As they do now, students would apply to the schools they can get in based on the schools requirements, or maybe one college would come up with unique programs. Maybe Georgia Gwinnett wants to give full-rides to national merit finalists to attract more non-local students and build the new university.
Trying to set a one-size fits all set of rules across public, private, dual enrolled, home schoolers and then across the gambit of different level of colleges and universities is just going to cause problems and constant changing of the rules to appease one faction or another or the disparities as they arise.
Thank goodness my daughter has a true full-ride (tuition, room & board) at an out-of-state school so we don’t have to worry about this mess. (Of course, I do have a 9th grader).
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
5:42 pm
@Wearingmeout: Those salaries also include grounds and facility staff, OIT folks, police, etc. Faculty in Georgia already make less than the national average. If you’re ready to run off the better academics from this state, go on ahead and lower those salaries further. Faculty benefits were also cut recently – we pay more for less healthcare than we did just two years ago.
Erica McCoy
February 22nd, 2011
5:52 pm
” And the governor’s office said that students can upgrade to the Zell Miller level at the stated check points.”
So let me get this right:
Current/future high school students can “upgrade” to the Zel Miller Scholarship at checkpoints after entering college. So would they have to get a 3.5 (since that is the “maintaining” GPA for Zel Miller Scholars) in college or a 3.7 to initially qualify at the checkpoints after being in college?
And if current/future high schoolers can “upgrade” to the higher status once in college( should this plan be implemented), why can’t current college students (entered before May 2011) as well? That doesn’t seem right. This will affect me for one semester at most, but I’m graduating early.
Erica McCoy
February 22nd, 2011
5:59 pm
To clarify, I mean that I had a 3.5 in high school, making me “Lite” eligible…but now I have a 3.66 in college, making or close to making the requirements for a Zel Miller Scholarship. If they are saying younger college students will be able to upgrade, why couldn’t the junior at UGA who is making a 4.0 in college as well?
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
5:59 pm
@JacobLocke
Can only assume you are on staff. No sympathy from me. The history of double digit increases in tuition over this many years was and is completely unwarranted. If the median salary in society is $40,000 and someone working at an educational institution whines about me questioning their $100,000+ salary, then I have no pity. Again, compensation is 2/3 of a college’s total expense. Period. As far as your comment about the costs being tied to fancy dorms, tv’s, etc., funny, but I pay $7,000 a year out of “my” pocket for that dorm. I believe the students/parents have paid for these amenities, not the colleges nor Hope (which doesn’t cover room and board). Me worry about staff leaving to other states for greener pastures, once Georgia moves from near the bottom of the country to the near the top in education, I might give it some thought. Otherwise, I get sick every time I hear our institutions of higher learning require another tuition increase.
Maureen Downey
February 22nd, 2011
6:00 pm
@Erica, High schoolers can only upgrade if they had the Miller and lost it. They still have to have had the 3.7 and the required test scores.
So, they would have to enter UGA, lose the Miller and then upgrade to it once they boosted their GPA. No one will get the Miller without the 3.7 in high school and the test scores.
Maureen
Erica McCoy
February 22nd, 2011
6:03 pm
Ok that makes more sense. Sorry I misunderstood. Thank you for clearing that up for me. =D
blackbird13
February 22nd, 2011
6:07 pm
@Erica
That seems to be what the bill is saying. Those who didn’t qualify in high school, no matter how long ago high school was, can never qualify for full tuition, even if they made an “A” in every single class in college. Meanwhile, someone can qualify in high school for full tuition, make straight F’s their first semester, and that semester’s tuition will be fully paid for. Huh!?
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
6:10 pm
@WearingMeOut: Well, you’re wrong again and, I see, another example of another know-it-all college kid. Parents and students pay for the power bills, the cable, the internet and other upkeep. Building the facilities led to the tuition increases. Adding classrooms, laboratories, computers, etc. led to the tuition increases. Institutions have been building and preparing for the increased enrollments that have been ongoing for the last 15 years or so. HOPE was ill-conceived from the start – it needed to be better regulated years ago, but it wasn’t and now this is the bed we have to sleep in. It has nothing to do with faculty salaries (mine is at $45,000 – most are in the $40-60K range, and that’s with a PhD, so you’ve shown your ignorance again).
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
6:14 pm
… and everything to do with the USG and the College and University presidents not thinking about what they were doing.
catlady
February 22nd, 2011
6:19 pm
I guess some MORE of the families of the Georgia leadership need jobs so we will open up some new bureacracy positions to administer these changes and the new loan program.
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
6:26 pm
@JacobLocke
Guess I got the staff part right. No, not a college kid. Just a struggling parent. I do pay $7,000 out of pocket for a dorm room not much larger than a prison cell. I can pretty much well scrutinize the UGA budget and prove my point. Facilities at UGA are old. Not much capital expenditure there. While not authoritative, I did a quick Wiki search and average earnings for a college professor at a public institution is $98,000 and at a private institution $127,000. I am pointing the finger at institutions of higher learning in general. They have been milking parents for 30 years.
oldtimer
February 22nd, 2011
6:30 pm
Two things here….Highschooler has a great point. The new requirements ought to begin for next years incoming freshmen. To those discussing college costs. Yes, professors have not had a lot of raises…but many had high salaries to begin with. A professor only actually teaches 12-15 hours a week, which requires more professors. College personnel also receive benefits and retirement benefits far far far better than other state employees…..including dental insurance in retirement and very very low cost health insurance. Colleges must do much more to contain their costs.
highschooler
February 22nd, 2011
6:37 pm
@dan. yea… that’s a special case. What if they are BOTH a Chem major???? and I hate to burst your bubble but NO ONE can raise their GPA up to a 3.7 in 3 months…obviously you have no children in high school because if you did then you would sympathize… and what do you mean life isn’t fair??!!?? I was promised full tuition a week ago and now I don’t have full tuition…yea that’s fair…what are you talking about ??? P.S. why in the world would Johnny help me with my homework if he was a chem major and i was recreation??? idk just wondering… #that is all
teacher&mom
February 22nd, 2011
6:41 pm
@Maureen – any word from the Board of Regents or college presidents about the proposals? I can’t help but think many are dismayed because this has the potential to empty out their classrooms next fall. While I understand the frustration that many professors have expressed about students who are not prepared for college, the flip side of the coin is large freshmen classes = more teaching positions and jobs at the colleges and universities.
Boatfoot
February 22nd, 2011
6:42 pm
Of course the Georgia Teacher’s Retirment fund somewhere between $40-$50 billion dollars with all lifetime benefits guaranteed by state law could be used to lower college costs. They only pay out $ 2.5 billion per year… Maybe they can share the pain.
collegebound2011
February 22nd, 2011
6:45 pm
@ Dan no disrespect but are you in college or have you gone to college because the scenario that you just described does not make since. how can someone with a Chem E major help someone who has Recreation Management homework…they have two different majors. And you are absolutely right life isn’t fair! it isn’t fair that we have to suffer from others mistakes. There are many people like myself who have worked hard for my entire high school career and have challenged myself academically. But because I have lower than a 3.7, which is it just me or does it seem like they just pulled this GPA out of a hat, I can’t get the full hope. Georgia needs to focus on putting all their money into education so they can replace the idiots that have put us in this mess. Thanks a lot Georgia guess for letting me know whats going on with my future 4 months before i graduate
woofydawg
February 22nd, 2011
6:45 pm
Maintaining a 3.5 in college can be demanding, especially in tougher majors and at tougher schools. UGA Honors requires its students to maintain only a 3.3 GPA to be considered in good standing with Honors.
breezy53
February 22nd, 2011
6:53 pm
I didn’t start college until age 50 and have no clue what my high school gpa was in 1975. I have worked hard to maintain a 4.0 gpa while working a full-time as well as a part-time job during all this. Current HOPE scholars should be grandfathered in. This should only affect incoming freshman. Like others have said “How can you expect a 2011 high school graduate with a 3.5 gpa to get a 3.7 gpa in the last 3 months of their senior year.
I didn’t go to pre-k or even kindergarten and I learned to read and write before I went to 1st grade. That is called parent involvement. Parents today think educating their children is totally on the shoulders of our public and private schools. Get involved with your children’s lives and they won’t need pre-k.
senior
February 22nd, 2011
7:00 pm
As a high school senior, I think this is ridiculous. The last thing that needs to be cut is education. The hope has always kept many Georgia highschool students in georgia for college. I go to a private school and many kids who get into awesome schools decide to stay in state for the hope. Some of them might be changing their minds. An extra 4,000 in loans is a lot, especially if you go to a private georgia college. When us college and future college students aren’t even sure that we will have a job getting out of college, IT MAKES 4,000 IN LOANS A LOT OF MONEY.
Also this proposal doesn’t take the variance in education into consideration. I have most of the time 4 hours of homework a night. And many of my teacher don’t give above a A-. College of Charleston adds 3 points onto GPAs from my school. Not only does hope not take that into consideration, but it also alters my GPA and makes it lower!!
Brian
February 22nd, 2011
7:04 pm
As a first year engineering student at Georgia Tech, I find this proposal an absurd attack on bright students who pursue difficult curricula. I took almost every AP course offered at my high school, so as a result, my HS GPA was only about 3.5, but as a National Merit Scholarship finalist, I was offered full rides (generally including housing, a computer, and/or a cash stipend) at several universities in other states, but turned them down in favor of Tech, because it’s a better university and the HOPE scholarship made it fairly affordable. Under the new proposal, I am permanently ineligible for full HOPE benefits, and since the terms of any full rides I was offered required me to accept them by last April, I can’t get them back. I know this will initially only amount to about $1,000/year extra, but tuition keeps rising while scholarships don’t and if I had known this was going to happen, I would certainly not have remained in this state. The least they could have done was grandfathered existing students in.
highschooler
February 22nd, 2011
7:06 pm
@senior I AGREE!!! The state doesn’t consider stuff like that… And why in the world would people say “ooo they will just work it off when they get out” that’s soo stupid THAT’S THE WHOLE REASON YOU GET SCHOLARSHIPS!! is so when you get out you are debt-free… duh!!
MackTheKnife
February 22nd, 2011
7:08 pm
Hope should be preserved and directed towards students who come from working class and lower middle class families. Considering these kids who come from upper middle class and wealthy parents don’t really need hope, compared to the people who actually buy the lottery tickets which funds the scholarship (working class folk), it only seems logical that the dollars be redirected to people who pay for the scholarship.
highschooler
February 22nd, 2011
7:09 pm
@ Brian see…situations like that are ridiculous… Georgia is letting its college student down…BIG TIME… and yea it may only be 1000 per year but that 1000 dollars i wouldn’t have had to pay otherwise…money is money.. hope everything works out!!!
PRE-K TEACHER
February 22nd, 2011
7:33 pm
@Karen….So, as a kindergarten teacher you observed how far ahead the children who attended Pre-k vs. the children who did not attend….correct? Now, you propose to cut the entire program because it is not mandatory and not all children attend anyway? I am trying to find the logic here….
Pre-K teacher/hope recipient
February 22nd, 2011
8:04 pm
I understand the need to make cuts in order to keep both programs alive. I received the full hope scholarship when I was in school but still ended up paying student loans for years because I went to a private school. That being said, I think it is foolish to consider cutting the Pre-K day or even think of getting rid of it. I teach in a lottery funded Pre-K and let me assure you, it is not just daycare. We follow the schedule of the rest of the elementary school we are housed in. We are the ones who identify children who may have special needs and get them connected with the services they need. BEFORE KINDERGARTEN. We are visited multiple times a year by the state to make sure we adhere to the mountainous guidelines we are asked to follow. Plenty of research has shown that getting a good foundation in school early is important for a students k through college. College students can accept some responsibility for their own education. Four year olds cannot.
Lee
February 22nd, 2011
8:11 pm
SWING!!! and a miss.
Deal put the best minds Ga had to offer on this problem and they screwed the pooch.
This solution:
1. Will do nothing to alleviate grade inflation at the high school level and will probably make it worse.
2. Will do nothing about the “go for a year, lose HOPE and drop out of college” student. Granted, now they only recieve 90% of tuition and no book allowance, but they still waste a year’s worth of tuition.
They could have made it a reimbursement program, you know, like the programs that many Fortune 500 companies offer their employees. Simple, direct, easy to administer. Alleviates grade inflation pressure at the high school level.
But no. We get a convoluted mess that will be a nightmare to administer.
northern neighbor
February 22nd, 2011
8:13 pm
Something had to be done, and this proposal is something. See how it flies and adapt it in a year. HOPE wasn’t perfect before, it won’t be perfect now. Again, something had to be done. If you don’t like it, run for governor.
Shar
February 22nd, 2011
8:15 pm
Brian, my daughter is in precisely the same situation. Worse, every student in the Georgia University System, and particularly at UGA and Tech, will immediately see this problem and switch away from more difficult courses into ones in which they can achieve an A and thus protect their scholarships. Consider the new Professional Science Masters that UGA has won stimulus funds to develop – the Georgia business community lobbied heavily for it as it will graduate students with technical, scientific, math, communications and language skills, but the diversity of disciplines required is unique and will be very, very challenging to achieve within the 3.7 requirement, which will discourage students from taking the prereqs and entering the program. Where is the sense in that?
Jacob, you have got to be kidding me. “Trust” that these are the best options for saving money, from an administration led by a dunderhead who can’t handle his own finances and who crept out of the Congressional cesspool literally minutes before public exposure and disgrace? While I wouldn’t argue with the notion that colleges and universities are both profligate and irresponsible with the money they receive, the primary cause of the sky-high tuition increases within the USG is the slash and burn that the same legislators you want to “trust” have inflicted upon the education budgets. They assumed that the difference would be made up with HOPE dollars in perpetuity (or until they retired from the Gold Dome, which to them is the same thing), so they yanked lots and lots and lots of money away from education and stuck it into stupid pet projects. Suddenly the HOPE well is drying up and these same legislators are looking to blame, and bill, anyone and everyone but themselves. I wouldn’t “trust” them to clean out a sewer.
Boatfoot, good suggestion on allocating dollars statewide but leaving the individual campuses to assign levels of scholarship support. I hadn’t heard that suggestion yet and it makes sense, given the wide disparity among the USG schools.
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
8:17 pm
This isn’t just a question of a 10% differential in tuition (90% as opposed to 100%). Also factor in that it will be based on revenue and not tuition increases (rate of increase has been nuts over the years). So any increases in tuition will come out of your pocket. Also, it will no longer pick up fees (which as of my last accounting amounted to $830 a semester). Further, doesn’t include annual parking permit of $360. Also, book award will be phased out. Books cost $300-$750 a semester. So once you add everything up, parents better be prepared to cough up at least $4,000, plus room and board. Numbers are rough, but should be close.
Get rid of pre-K. It’s no more than nursery.
Get rid of anything other than need based
Increase GPA to something better than 3.0, but not as harsh as 3.70.
Grandfather the current graduating class.
Start REDUCING expenses at institutions of higher learning. Let’s see, I believe Mr. Richt makes $3.5 million a year. This is what’s wrong with the system.
To those who espouse that HOPE is a free ride so we should stop complaining, if you’ve got no skin in the game (and you don’t since funds comes from the lottery and not your paycheck), shut up.
PRE-K TEACHER
February 22nd, 2011
8:20 pm
@wearing me out….What knowledge do you have of the pre-k program? Have you taught pre-k or have you actually done any kind of research?
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
8:25 pm
I have no doubt that any Pre-K teacher would be an advocate of the program. On the other hand, society had fared reasonably well before Pre-K came into existence. If anything, education has gone downhill for a long time, even with Pre-K. The problem is rooted solely with the parents.
Pre-K teacher/hope recipient
February 22nd, 2011
8:27 pm
wearing me out- You obviously have never set foot inside a lottery funded Pre-K classroom. A third of the students in my class are reading and doing addition problems. Others are still working on more basic skills. All are learning valuable social skills and life skills. I’ve read that some states choose how many beds to have ready in their correctional facilities based on first grade failure rates in reading. Early intervention can prevent more of those failures.
Shar
February 22nd, 2011
8:30 pm
Pre-K teacher/HOPE recipient, college students may have greater earning potential than four year olds, but they are also not the legal responbility of their parents, having achieved the age of 18. Four year olds are. Six hours of pre-K, five days per week may well be far better preparation for kindergarten than some of the alternatives at home, but 30 hours of school per week is excessive for a four year old and does indeed verge on daycare. Now, I am a supporter of quality daycare that permits parents to work, but I don’t think that it should be universally state funded. Means-testing for the Pre-K, which has far more affordable private alternatives than does college, should be instituted as well as cutting out nap time and sending such tiny kids home to sleep.
PRE-K TEACHER
February 22nd, 2011
8:34 pm
I advocate because I know the results. You have no idea what goes on inside of Pre-K classroom if you compare it to “nursery school”. Shall we also say that students needing HOPE is a “problem rooted solely with parents” as well? With that frame of thought, the parents should make sure their children earn a high enough GPA to ensure a scholarship. With that they will not need HOPE.
yea
February 22nd, 2011
8:41 pm
Pre-K Teacher
do you realize many scholarships are more limited than the hope is? and scholarships, pick any college you want to go to. so basically, if you want every college kid to leave georgia, yea, your plan would work. And with PRE-K, everything you do, can just be learned in kidnergarten. It’s a better idea to just have kids start at kindergarten at 4 years old instead of ever going to pre-k
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
8:43 pm
No point in trying to engage you about Pre-K. You have your views. There are studies that dispel in whole or in part the positive effects of Pre-K. As far as comparing Pre-K to college, my kid had a 4.0 and this doesn’t ensure scholarship money. It doesn’t even come close, I assure you. Parents who devote a great deal of their time to the development of their young children is the key.
Interesting Reality
February 22nd, 2011
8:47 pm
Everyone knew that a change would come. And common sense (which unfortunately is not that common) should have told us that everyone WOULD NOT be happy. People made mistakes in the past and it is unfortunate that “you” feel “you” are the only ones who must pay for the mistakes of others, but EVERYONE is in the same boat one way or another. If it isn’t education then it’s something else somewhere else being cut….but people only “care” about that which changes their lives. And the world’s smallest violin continues to play.
Ohhhh the “best and the brightest” wouldn’t have stayed otherwise….if you had the money to pay OUT OF STATE tuitions (or the qualifications to attend), you would have gone where you wanted to ANYWAY, HOPE didn’t change that fact for many that could AFFORD the IVY LEAGUE education. And if you ONLY chose to stay to save the tuition money so that you could AFFORD a better car, shut up and go sit in the corner, you are no longer allowed to complain.
I went to UGA with HOPE and maintained. I still worked 3 jobs to take care of all that I wanted because I NEVER expected a free handout. And I still don’t. I think appreciation has been replaced with expectation. “They promised” is a phrase used all too often. Recently plenty of people were “promised” paychecks. People were “promised” jobs. They “promised” to end layoffs, but EVERYONE had to deal. And of course, there were those who were not affected whom didn’t care…that is until they were.
I have a daughter ready to enter Pre-K and regardless of the change I appreciate the opportunity for her to gain the educational experience and foundation through the Pre-K program. And if it is cut, I will do all that needs to be done to ensure she receives the foundation anyway. It is NOT ideal, but it is our current reality. So either we can continue to scream into the wind or bear down against it.
PRE-K TEACHER
February 22nd, 2011
8:50 pm
Yea….um it’s called sarcasm..look it up! Let’s think your “start kindergarten at 4 instead of 5″ solution through. So, at 4 you start Kindergarten….then 5 go to First Grade…..6 Second Grade….7 Third…get my point? Wouldn’t we have to add a grade after 12th? What an economical solution! I think it just might solve the problem!
Interesting Reality
February 22nd, 2011
8:55 pm
@yeah – so that I understand are you saying that school should being a year earlier for children? So instead of going to kindergarten at 5 you will be there at 4? And “every college kid to leave Georgia” are you serious? If scholarships are “more limited” how could every college kid qualify and thereby leave Georgia? Also, many scholarships are not full scholarships, but rather PARTIAL!
The entire situation is horrible and it would be so mature if the people in charge would just STOP giving themselves pats on the backs with bonuses but rather keep the money where it was initially intended…with the children. However, when was the last time ANYONE in POWER sacrificed themselves or their comfy living for the good of our future?
PRE-K TEACHER
February 22nd, 2011
8:59 pm
Again people SARCASM…..I was not comparing Pre-K to college….I was simply using sarcasm at how ridiculous wearing me out’s comment was. You said that the root of the problem is parents….well, using your thought process then getting college tuition is solely the parents problem as well…..
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
9:00 pm
@Wearing me out – go to the state of Georgia website. You can see the salaries of every employee in the USG system. When you review those numbers, get back to me about the average salary of a USG faculty member.
And no, I’m not staff. I’m faculty.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
9:01 pm
@Pre-K: Being 18 isn’t a prerequisite for college. You wouldn’t have to add a grade.
Pre-K teacher/hope recipient
February 22nd, 2011
9:03 pm
Interesting reality- thank you for the clear views.
I know when I was in college I worked my butt off taking 20 hours of classes and working three jobs because I knew it was the only way for me to better myself. I was the one footing the bill for the difference because HOPE has never paid for 100% of college. I worked much harder to keep the scholarships (HOPE and other merit based scholarships) I did have and appreciated them because I would not be in school without them. I was never told growing up that I was “promised” a college education. I was told to work hard and do my best. My parents didn’t have money for me to go to college so I knew it was up to me. I’m sad that HOPE can no longer pay for as much as it once did, but let’s be honest…its time for people to start taking some personal responsibility for what goes on in their lives. If you have to pay for some of it so much the better. You will probably work harder and appreciate the help you did get all the more.
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
9:24 pm
@Pre K Teacher.
Sarcasm. Sorry, I read it as a irrational comparison. Seems a couple of others did as well. I started school at 5 (first grade). They had no kindergarten back then. I, and my generation, did pretty well. I can’t say the same for the past couple of generations (much of the time when Pre-K has been in existence.
@JacobLocke
Staff (4. a specific group of workers or employees) (the body of teachers and administrators at a school). You’re a PHD? Pass the poupon, okay? As far as salaries, I just went to a USG site that had a sheet showing average salaries at each state school for 2007: professor $102,000, assoc professor $72,000, asst professor $62,000, instructor/lecturer $46,000. Average all teaching $73,000. Again, these are 2007 numbers.
The only proponents I’ve seen of this deal (no pun intended) are the educators.
PRE-K TEACHER
February 22nd, 2011
9:27 pm
@Jacob Locke….I know it’s not a prerequisite. I’m simply trying to understand the logic of starting Kindergarten at 4….how is that going to solve the problem… economically? You will have 4 and 5 year olds starting Kindergarten with huge gaps in their developmental readiness. Seriously am I missing something?
USG Facuty
February 22nd, 2011
9:35 pm
@Wearing me out: Your ignorance is showing again. How many full professors do you think are in the USG system v/s the amount of Instructors and Assistant Professors? How much do you think a PhD is worth? Do you know how many hours we work, the amount of debt we incur earning our degrees to teach your precious snowflakes? Do you know how much more we would earn in the private sector?
Lastly, we have three classifications of employees: Administration, Faculty and Staff. It’ s a fairly simple classification system. Try to wrap your head around it.
PRE-K TEACHER
February 22nd, 2011
9:35 pm
@wearing me out…in all seriousness, Kindergarten standards today are what First Grade standards were back in the day. Kindergarten students are expected to know how to read when entering Kindergarten. Thus making Pre-k important for teaching letter recognition as well as phonemic awareness.
Jake
February 22nd, 2011
9:38 pm
Have any of you tried to keep a 3.7 gpa? or even a 3.0 in highschool? in PUBLIC highschool? in PUBLIC GEORGIA highschool? No? Also, how are we supposed to “save up money” tuition costs 1 to 2 grand easy not to mention books, meal plans, and room and board when we are bagging groceries?. As a college student i make good grades, but high school is a different atmosphere. there are distractions in which college does not have. I say get rid of pre k, you can teach your own kids to read and write. Your’e affecting my future and making me pay money i dont have. You all know that you have to have a college degree to get a decent job.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
9:38 pm
@Pre-K – there are plenty of kids who enter college at 16. I don’t know about putting four-year-olds into kindergarten, but we could do without having 12 grades. Students in England enter “colleges” at 16.
PRE-K TEACHER
February 22nd, 2011
9:44 pm
@Jacob Locke…Dude, I was not being serious about adding a freaking grade or the age of the student entering college. I was making a sarcastic observation/comment to another commenter who thought the pre-k solution would be to just not have pre-k and go straight to kindergarten at 4. Which would not really be a solution.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
9:44 pm
@Jake – stop overreacting. Get the 3.0, get 90% covered. Apply for other scholarships and grants. Pell is still available. HOPE has only been around for 20 years. People were paying for their own education for decades before HOPE was even a glint in Miller’s eye. Be grateful you’re getting the 90%.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
9:46 pm
@Pre-K: Dude, you said you were being sarcastic about comparing Pre-K to College. So, are all of your posts sarcastic?
Pre-K teacher/hope recipient
February 22nd, 2011
9:50 pm
Jake- to answer your question, yes. I did maintain a 3.7 gpa in a georgia public highschool and I graduated with a 3.9 gpa in college IN GEORGIA. You are being asked to pay money you don’t have to better yourself with an education? POOR BABY! College is not a right! You have to WORK for it. I didn’t have money for college either. I paid my student loans for 10 years! Its an investment in yourself. A college education is not a God given right nor a government sanctioned right. Welcome to being an adult. You have to work for things. They aren’t just given to you because you exist. Societies are out there like that. It’s called socialism!
PRE-K TEACHER
February 22nd, 2011
9:50 pm
Kinda! I was being sarcastic with Pre-K college comparison, as well as the starting Kindergarten at 5 being a really super duper solution!!! People are irritating me!
PRE-K TEACHER
February 22nd, 2011
9:52 pm
oops I meant to say Kindergarten at 4…
Top School
February 22nd, 2011
9:52 pm
Should we not careless about this, too?
Honestly, I am tired of hearing about it…
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
9:55 pm
@Top School: Just for you …
http://incompetech.com/gallimaufry/care_less.html
Boatfoot
February 22nd, 2011
10:07 pm
I can agree with JacobLocke on the part of not needing 12 grades or put it all together, we shouldn’t need 16-17 years from 1st to college degree. Our educational system, aside from access, technology and costs, hasn’t changed much since the 1800’s.
My eldest D started college at age 15, my youngest scored a 26 on the ACT in the 7th grade. Yet my eldest will have two years of college before she is allowed to be a high school graduate and though she made a 34 on the ACT and two years of college, she had to take numerous EOCT tests, Georgia writing tests, Georgia graduation tests which is just a waste of time and money. My youngest is bored and refuses to do homework (she makes 100’s on exams and gets mediocre grades on homework, if she turns it in at all.
Education should be set to where students can precede at their pace without pidgeon holed into things by age. The last two years of High School and first two years of college could probably be merged into 2 years. There is no reason for a engineer to take two semesters of a language if they don’t want or a Business major taking two semesters of World History and Intro to Psychology or some of the things many GA colleges have built into their “core”. Many times students don’t even know what is involved with their chosen major until the 3rd year of college and then Uh-oh, I don’t think I like this.
There are students in certain grades for which they aren’t ready, there are studentss in college that don’t need to be there. The reverse is true also. With today’s technology and broadband capabilities, the entire structure of the educational experience can be changed from it’s current 1800’s format. If a student can make an ‘A’ on a final without taking a class, give them credit, and let them move on so they can concentrate and focus on more important areas of need. If a 10th grade student is ready for college, send the buses to GGC, GPC or wherever.. those long distance use broadband. Leave more resources in high school for those that need more time. If students could graduate college in 3 years instead of 4 or 5, think how much HOPE money would be saved. Our best and brightest should be getting Master’s in 4 years.
Dr. M
February 22nd, 2011
10:08 pm
Those students currently in college with a 3.7 or higher GPA should also be eligible for the Zell Miller scholarship, don’t you think?
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
10:21 pm
@USG Facuty.
Wow. You’re teaching my kids and you are the “facuty”. Guess not in the English Department.
As far as your definition of staff, I don’t believe most dictionaries recognize your definition as most recognize that staff includes administration and faculty. But because you say your institution says it is so, then it must be so.
Regarding professors, I went back to the USG site and looked at those 2007 records again for all schools in the system. I’ll use UGA since they are the largest in the system: professors 604, assoc professors 484, asst professors 383, instructor/lecturers 95. Professors do indeed outnumber assistants and lecturers. Therefore, the compensation is very high at that school. I stand by my comment.
Regarding the time you spent earning a PHD, so what? How much debt you incurred to teach our precious snowflakes? Is that what you think about students? Sounds like you have some issues. If you can earn more in the private sector, as you suggest, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
@Pre-K
Believe it or not, this country did survive quite nicely before Pre-K. Probably much better than our system today. For whatever reason, but I bet the parents are the root of all the problems with kids and the state in which we find our educational system. Is that an oxymoron? Not quite, but close.
I do know one thing, I now understand what the right wing is talking about when they talk about the elitist pass the poupon crowd. I’ve gotten somewhat of a taste of this today.
it's a great deal but...
February 22nd, 2011
10:27 pm
Hope is a wonderful scholarship and preK program. It is the best thing to happen to education in Georgia ever. But…my concerns are the rate of college tuition increases and when the scholarship is not tied to increases; sooner rather than later these monies may not amount to enough to allow many to go to college (even with 1% loans). UGA tuition is $8700, but total cost for in-state for a year is around $18,000. As the tuition rates goes up Hope will become less and less a part of the piece that helps college costs become affordable. It’s a shame.
Chris
February 22nd, 2011
10:34 pm
For some odd reason I was able to graduate from Tech without the benefit of HOPE. I did it old school, I worked for the money to pay for school.
Josh Delaney, president of UGA SGA whines about the cuts, ‘There is only so much we can take. What’s next?’. Um, 90% if you don’t keep up your grades.
Pre-K needs to be dropped, doesn’t belong.
Equitas
February 22nd, 2011
10:34 pm
Maybe the HOPE Scholarship needs to award students a nominal amount
in a state college savings plan over a period of years as an incentive for
people to save more money. If the state is focusing on students with over
a 3.7 grade point average , it is duplicating the numerous scholarships
that already exist for the targeted students.
yea
February 22nd, 2011
10:37 pm
Pre-K teacher,
at sending them to kindergarted at 4 instead of 5, send kids to college a year earlier, have them graduate a year earlier, and into the work force a year earlier. I dont see anything wrong with that.
Interesting Reality
February 22nd, 2011
10:47 pm
@Jake- yes I graduated from a public school in Georgia (while working) with a 3.8 and that included your “distractions”, AP classes, sports, and various other excuses people like to give. I also graduated from the University of Georgia a semester early, while working 3 jobs, taking over 18 hours worth of classes (including Independent Study), so to answer your question, NO I didn’t TRY, I DID IT!!! I didn’t wait for others to give me because I deserved it more than that guy or because it was promised. I did it because I WANTED IT! “Educate your own kids…” wow aren’t you an entitled something. I guess the people didn’t think of YOU and YOUR future…they were too busy trying to do something to help more than ONE….
And once again, the entire situation is horrible and would be better served if those over it would honestly think and consider others, but hey…such is the reality (until we WORK to change rather than wait for someone else to do it)
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
10:48 pm
@Wearing Me Out: You’ve not shown your ignorance, you’ve shown your absolute disregard for what professors do for your child(ren). If you’re sick, do you want the cheapest doctor or the brightest one? USG Faculty’s point may have been poorly articulated, but he or she is right about your misconceptions about faculty salaries. Using UGA as a model is not representative of the USG as a whole. As a research institution, UGA would have more full professors – that’s correct. However, there are only a handful of Research I institutions in this state (UGA, GT and, I believe, GSU). The other 33 institutions have much lower pay grades and far fewer full professors; specifically, far fewer earning in the $100,000 range.
Pre-K teacher/hope recipient
February 22nd, 2011
10:51 pm
Believe it or not…Kindergarten’s curriculum used to be what Pre-K’s is now. The standards have changed. Are you saying that kindergarten is no longer necessary? Understand that what we did in first grade is expected to be MASTERED in kindergarten..not just introduced. Pre-K is needed. As for college, Pell grants and the like still exist for need based scholarships as well as merit based scholarships. Perhaps the HOPE scholarship should be aimed at the ones in the middle. Good students who don’t qualify for need based aid but aren’t’ in the top 10% of the class. If you have a super high GPA you should be able to get a scholarship of some kind. Again… not a full scholarship. It’s not a right. You do have to pay for your education. Stop the whining. It’s not parent’s responsibility to pay for a college education. It is their responsibility to prepare their kids for college. The kids are the one’s that benefit from the life experience of going to college. They are they ones that should pay for it.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
10:58 pm
@Wearing me out: Yep. I was right:
2008 numbers:
Professors = 2248
Associate = 2615
Assistant = 3542
Ins/Lect = 1167
Since Math is a popular subject on the blogs today, I do a little bit here:
3542
+1167 =
4719
4719 > 2248 (more than double, actually)
Nice try, though.
yea
February 22nd, 2011
10:58 pm
It should be a parent’s responsibility to pay for there childrens Pre-k then. If you really want pre-k, pay for it
Oh yes, I'm the great pretender......
February 22nd, 2011
10:59 pm
@Maureen – I have already heard from parents who think the 3.7 GPA is too steep. They also think the 3.5 to keep FULL HOPE is too high especially for students at Tech in math and engineering.
If it’s lowered, guess what?…..students will meet the expectation.
Really?
February 22nd, 2011
10:59 pm
Over half the kids in GA qualify for the Federally funded Head Start program- move them into that- and save GA’s money for HOPE- since we’re stuck with the federal dept- use it!
Fred
February 22nd, 2011
11:00 pm
@Shivam Kumar – Did you bother to read the proposed bill? It specifically states that HOPE will not pay more than the actual tuition if said tuition less than the HOPE funding.
I don’t know if this is the answer to HOPE funding issues or not but let’s at least use facts to make our decisions. I know my daughter is concerned about the GPA requirements for entry. She is concerned that by taking AP classes, she might not be able to maintain a 3.7 GPA. I told her until we know the exact requirements, we can’t know what the impact is. If some credit is not granted for AP classes, I know more students will take less rigorous courses to ensure their average is high enough. That will be counter productive.
Shivam Kumar
February 22nd, 2011
11:09 pm
@Fred
No i didnt read the Proprosed bill, i only read the article on AJC who didnt mention that at all. I’m glad that this is definately included in the bill, because they should have done that a LONG time ago
Pre-K teacher/hope recipient
February 22nd, 2011
11:10 pm
People who can afford to pay for Pre-K do. Its the majority that can’t pay that benefit from the program. Parent’s responsibility? Yes. Actual ability to get the job done? Not so much. Many families with young children struggle to make end meet. Ignoring young children and families in need is not helpful. Giving college students a leg up from having to pay full tuition to college on their own? Yes. That’s helpful. I think something can be found in the middle for both.
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
11:10 pm
@JacobLocke
Don’t really want to engage in a tit for tat. There are a number of issues with the situation. Is the system bloated? Yep. So are the federal and state governments. The problem isn’t just isolated to educational institutions. My disregard for professors? You don’t get paid to care what I do or don’t think. If you need affirmation, I’m not the person. I’ve already formed my elitist pass the poupon view based upon some of the comments (from educators) that I have been reading today.
Would I want the cheapest or brightest doctor? Well, since I’m uninsured, I guess I would go with the cheapest. When my kid was deciding whether Harvard or Stanford were possible financially, an in-state choice was made because of HOPE. To those who say they’ve put themselves through school and worked 10 jobs, blah, blah, blah. Life and realities are a lot different today. Tuition has doubled in 5 years. I can assure you income has not doubled during that time, but has gone down. Well, just get scholarships you say. Much easier said than done. Competition for limited funds is intense.
I understand HOPE was not guaranteed and I have no issues with changes, but to pull the rug out with no notice is just not right. If I knew now what I know today, I would have tried to swing a better deal with an out-of-state school.
Confused
February 22nd, 2011
11:16 pm
I see that there are a lot of heated discussions going on here….if someone could take the time and answer a couple of questions? I have read (or at least tried to) the actual bill. However, I still do not completely understand all of the effects that it would have (it just seems like a lot of “lawyer” talk, no offense but as a young college student who has had little or no interest in politics until now, it’s a little difficult to understand). I understand why people might think that some might see us (HOPE recipients) as “spoiled” for EXPECTING a full ride to a public college. However, it is a concept/idea that we grew up with, went to high school with, and for some of us are attending college with. It is similar to expecting some sort of health insurance for a job position because it has been that way for years and you grew up seeing it, then having it suddenly cut out. It isn’t easy to completely change everything from right under us in a matter of a couple of months. The one thing that I think I do understand is the whole grandfather clause (or lack of). I graduated from high school with a 3.5 GPA after taking all honors/AP classes. I now currently have a college GPA of 3.98. So, this new bill is basically telling me that because I did not have a 3.7GPA in high school I will receive the HOPE light? 90% for ONLY tuition? I know that some people will say that 90% is better than nothing, and it is, but compared to what we grew up seeing/expecting (I can’t help it that I grew up expecting it), it is a huge change and disappointment. How does HOPE expect me to try and receive the Miller scholarship if I’ve already graduated from high school not expecting this change to occur a year later?
Is this the final draft for the bill? I mean, can there still be changes made to it (ex. adding a grandfather clause)? Also, what is the likelihood that it will include a grandfather clause?
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
11:18 pm
@Wearing Me Out:
I agree the tit for tat is tiresome. I also agree that times have changed. However, plenty of other students in other states find ways to pay tuition, I’m sure you and your child will as well. And, yes, income has gone down, including the income of the faculty teaching your students. Many of us have endured furlough days, increased class sizes and overloads. All of this being put upon us WITH tuition increases. So where is the money going? I assure you it’s not going to us dijon-consuming faculty members.
Pre-K teacher/hope recipient
February 22nd, 2011
11:18 pm
If you were deciding in between Harvard and Stanford, Hope shouldn’t have mattered for much compared to the cost of those schools. I understand getting the best deal for the money, but Hope is really only a drop in the bucket when you talk about going to out of state private schools. My sister went to Rice and Yale under the days of Hope and it didn’t sway her decision one way or the other. BTW, my parents paid none of her tuition for either school. She paid her loans dilligently for about 8 years.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
11:21 pm
@Confused:
First, at your age you SHOULD be interested in politics. These things affect you – I hope you see that now.
Secondly, no this is not the “final” draft, but the eventual changes will not differ too much from what you’ve seen in the papers today. My advice to you and your peers is to make your voice heard and fight for a grandfather clause. Don’t wait around and hope. There is a chance that a change such as that can be included (and it should be).
Confused
February 22nd, 2011
11:33 pm
@JacobLocke:
first, thanks for clearing some stuff up.
second, I understand that people at “my age” are the group that are voting the least, but honestly that’s not something I feel that you should be reprimanding me of. I feel like I just got called out by a teacher in class. I can’t help not being interested in politics. I just turned 18 a couple of months ago- my interests are not politics at this moment (and I don’t feel like I should feel shamed for it either). And no, my interests are not in parties, alcohol, and drugs either. Darn stereotypes.
to stop future talks about maturity and how young kids don’t care nowadays…I’ll just thank you for some answers and be done. Thanks.
legalize
February 22nd, 2011
11:40 pm
marijuana can fund both Pre-k and HOPE
td
February 22nd, 2011
11:40 pm
I see we have a great deal of young people on this blog that do not have a clue as to what life is all about. Hope is totally funded by lottery sales. If you want to have more money then tell your friends and family to give up a six pack per week, a pint or a bottle of wine and play the lottery. If you are attending college full time and not working a part time job then you are lazy and are not really getting what college is suppose to teach you (preparing to WORK). If capable students are going to take lessor classes to save $1000 per year for 4 years and then in return get a $30,000 per year job instead of a $70,000 job then you really do not deserve to get a college education.
Wearing Me Out
February 22nd, 2011
11:51 pm
@Confused
Seems they’re getting vicious now in their comments. Wow. To answer your question, it appears the 3.70/1200/26 requirement will apply to both current college students who graduated high school with those numbers and to future college attendees who have those high school numbers. HOPE is better than nothing, but you really need to be prepared because the 10% differential, out-of-pocket for tuition increases that HOPE won’t cover, the $6,000-10,000 for room and board, the $360 for parking, the $1,700 for student fees, the $500-$1,500 for books add up to a substantial amount. You or some other scholarship or maybe Pell will have to help pay for that yourself. Federal Work Study. I believe 5000 applied for FWS jobs at one large school and only 400 were able to secure a job. Off campus work. Unemployment rate highest in many moons for young people. Not a death knell to your future educational plans, but a definite crimp.
teacher&mom
February 23rd, 2011
6:45 am
The previous legislators and Governor were warned that HOPE was running into the red. Their refusal to address the issue is a major problem. Instead of drastic cuts and overnight GPA increases, wouldn’t it have been better to phase in the changes?
Any one still believe Sonny was an effective Governor?
The university my oldest attends has posted on their web site that 62% of their student body will be impacted by the proposal.
Hope Mom
February 23rd, 2011
7:39 am
Can someone tell me…. if my daughter had a 3.7 in high school, got Hope for her freshman year at UGA, but then lost it because she had a 2.97 so she had to get a loan for her sophmore year. And now will probably end up with at least a 3.0 (or higher) this year, will she be still be able to get Hope assistance for her junior year?
Wearing Me Out
February 23rd, 2011
8:24 am
@Hope Mom
My understanding is that if the 3.0 or better is achieved at the 30/60/90 attempted hours checkpoint, then you would then again qualify. It would be the Hope Lite, though, since the GPA during college wasn’t at least 3.50. Changes to HOPE are not yet law and are fluid at this point. What is being proposed is the first attempt to resolve the problem.
Tech Student
February 23rd, 2011
8:41 am
As I think about these proposed changes more and more, I’m very thankful for the 90%, but to me, two things stand out as needing attention. 1) Not all schools are equal. Students shouldn’t be punished for persuing education at higher difficulty schools or higher difficulty majors. At Tech, a 3.0 is Dean’s List, 3.15 is graduating with honors, and 3.35 is graduating with high honors (http://www.registrar.gatech.edu/students/degcandfaq.php) While at other schools, a 3.5 is what you need to graduate with honors. How can we say that all schools in the University System of GA are equal? 2) As many others have said, some sort of grandfather clause should be put in place. Students who are about to graduate or have already graduated cannot change their high school GPA, they should not be punished for that now.
College Mom
February 23rd, 2011
8:58 am
I agree with those calling for grandfathering in current college students. What hasn’t been brought out was that starting with the hs class of 2010, Georgia dropped the tuition lock. It was very difficult to compare college costs apples to apples when we didn’t know how much tuition would increase and couldn’t count on the Hope (both the uncertainty and for a prospective engineering major at Georgia Tech). For those of you that say, get scholarships — good luck with that. Most of the Georgia schools offered Hope, and that was it (for a National Merit Finalist at that). Books, fees, and room and board are another entire category that are way more than out of state in our experience.
My daughter made the decision to go out of state and I’m glad we aren’t facing these increases. And that’s what they are increases. I can tell you first hand that books and fees at her university are much lower than Georgia Tech and room and board as well although we didn’t have those costs when she was at GT. Her university was also named to the Top 50 most affordable. Funny, there weren’t any Georgia colleges on that list when I looked.
I feel for those in the hs class of 2011 trying to make a college decision. I hope that you have some out of state options, because the way this is going, those colleges may be more affordable.
Toto: Exposing naked body scanners...
February 23rd, 2011
1:14 pm
Let’s just call it HOPE-full vs. HOPE-less.
Carol
February 23rd, 2011
1:19 pm
As a Mother of 2 college students and a preschool librarian, I would rather see Pre-K funds cut since it is not mandatory and does not reach all 4 yrs olds. Do 4 yr olds really need to be in school rather than daycare or learning from home!!! College kids, better yet, University students need to be in school!!! I am a single Mom with a Freshman & Junior attending UGA , who strive to make high grades and work and take care of themselves……WHY SHOULD WE BE PUNISHED by this budget cut !!!!
Toto: Exposing naked body scanners...
February 23rd, 2011
1:38 pm
“Facing bankruptcy of the lottery program in 2013,…”
There are a few issues the Governor did not address. First, why don’t we fire the current Lottery contract winner. THEY FAILED! Why don’t we hire another company like IntraLot and see how they do. WHY DO THEY THINK BANKRUPTCY IS INEVITABLE? Where is the outside AUDIT? Are the current funds accounted for? Were bonuses, perhaps, too LARGE? On the other side, the state’s economy continues to deteriorate. Is this why lottery sales are down? If so, HOW IS THIS NEW FIX GOING TO LAST? Why not just shut it down and save taxpayers money? Hope money was just inflating tuition.
Eric
February 23rd, 2011
2:32 pm
Will the Zell Miller Scholarship cover full tuition AND fees, or just full tuition? (A.K.A. Will the Zell Miller Scholarship be identical to the current HOPE funding)
Tech Student
February 23rd, 2011
2:56 pm
@ Eric
No, no one will have a fee or book stipend.
Anna
February 23rd, 2011
6:44 pm
First all, all you people who think that Pre-K is a waste of money and are calling it a daycare have obliviously NEVER stepped foot in a Pre-K room! There is so much more going on in these rooms then playing or WHATEVER you think happens there. We (yes I am a Pre-K teacher so I KNOW) are getting children ready cognitively but socially too! So many kids come in with no “raising” and they don’t know how to handle themselves in sticky situations. We teach so much more than colors, shapes, counting and writing names. I really can’t believe that some of you are so against such a great institution. While it might help to cut out something like naptime in our day, I think that cutting our day in half is going to have us rushed to get all the things that need to be covered. If ya’ll haven’t noticed all the things that you covered when you were a kid, are done at a much younger age….Kindergarteners are doing 1st grade work, 1st is doing 2nd grade work, so on and so fourth.
Secondly, while I think that helping people better themselves by getting a degree is GREAT, people are abusing the system. If you are going to the tech school, and getting the HOPE grant to help you pay, you should only be able to use that grant for ONE degree. People are going to school for free to draw unemployment because they are “working on a degree”, this is the kind of stuff that should be re-examined for flaws. I am working on a Master’s degree and I am unable to get any kind of HOPE to help pay for this degree. I have a job in the profession that the degree would be paying for, so why am I getting screwed out of money?
There are many things that some have managed to over look. It is natural for you to side with the part of this proposal that applys to you, but think about everyone that would be effected by this. Children do not have a voice unless we speak for them!
S.B.
February 23rd, 2011
7:08 pm
I will be graduating in December of 2011, so this change won’t affect me…mostly. My problem isn’t with HOPE covering only 90% of my tuition…that means I’ll have to shell out about $350, which I can handle. What I can’t handle is the fact that I also have to come up with $1000 worth of fees with no explanation of what half of the money goes to (those suspicious $200 mandatory fees, anyone?)
concerned parent
February 23rd, 2011
9:24 pm
Some of you do not have your facts correct about the current hope. There is a maximum amount paid for tuition for hope but NO ONE gets more than what is charged for tuition for their perspective college. I have a daughter a UGA who gets the full amount of her tuition paid by hope, no more no less. However, I have a niece at Kennesaw State who also gets her tuition paid in full by hope, however she receives $4500 less than my daughter because of the difference in what the colleges charge for tuition! No one receives a refund check from hope. Hope does not give a student more money than what is charged by their school for tuition, one poster said his friends at community colleges get the same amount that he gets at UGA, this is simply not true! Now private colleges do not get their full amount paid because hope does have a cap and most private college tuitions exceed the cap.
concerned parent
February 23rd, 2011
9:56 pm
@wearing me out
You need to get off wiki search and get your facts straight! Why not check the actual salaries of the colleges here in Georgia. They range is from $45,000 to $70,000, many make much less than educators in our pulblic schools including kindergarten teachers. It is people like you who spew false information that creates the hysteria! Let’s stick to facts!
Wearing Me Out
February 24th, 2011
6:24 am
@concerned parent
I did get my facts straight. If you had read all the posts between Jacob Locke/USG and me, you would have seen we both went straight to the USG official site and not Wiki. Assuming you can read the official figures from USG’s own site, here is the link to 2007 salaries in 2007. The average salary at UGA, for instance, was $83,204. How about you getting YOUR facts straight.
http://www.usg.edu/research/faculty/salary/fac-sal-usg07.pdf
redweather
February 24th, 2011
6:36 am
A couple of points.
1. Many of us in higher education work for incredibly low wages. In my case, that was a choice I made. I used to make more than twice as much as I do now, but that money came with all kinds of strings attached. I got tired of the strings.
2. That part of the proposed legislation that ties HOPE to even higher GPAs will serve in large part to exacerbate the already significant problem of high school grade inflation. I’ve had quite a few HOPE “scholars” in my classes who are at best C students. They lose HOPE very quickly, as they should.
3. HOPE has become an entitlement in the minds of many. It is supposed to be a scholarship. Big difference.
4. I also paid my way through college. No scholarships, no grants, no nothing. It took me a little longer, and it was a drag having to hold down a full-time job while attending night classes at GSU year round. But I managed.
5. It looks like my daughter, who is scheduled to graduate from high school this year, will at least be eligible for a 90% HOPE. I hope she treasures every penny of it.
redweather
February 24th, 2011
6:38 am
Well, I intended to make only a couple of points.
Albert Bodamer
February 24th, 2011
8:13 am
I posted this case against the 3.7 GPA requirement for the Zell Miller Scholarship in my blog: http://wp.me/p1j2to-54 Please visit and comment.
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I understand and appreciate the challenges facing the ongoing viability of the HOPE Scholarship program, and I appreciate the legislature’s efforts to remedy the pending budget shortfalls. I do not disagree with the majority of the proposed changes to the HOPE program. However, the pending requirement to attain a 3.7 High School GPA to qualify for the prospective Zell Miller Scholarship is problematic for the following reasons:
A student already enrolled in a Georgia College who has previously failed to achieve a 3.7 High School GPA would never be eligible for the Zell Miller Scholarship, even if—in the extreme case—they scored a perfect 1600 on the SAT and held a 4.0 GPA in college.
How grades are awarded vary widely from school to school, so GPA is an unreliable indicator of ability. Most universities focus on aptitude tests such as the SAT and ACT for this reason. Georgia Tech, for instance, requires that the student self-report their grades. The state’s premier technical university realizes the problem with GPA and focuses on aptitude tests and extra-curricular excellence.
The 3.7 GPA requirement penalizes high school students who take honors and AP courses. Weighting points are removed and if a student gets an A in an AP class, they are unable to get the 0.5 point bump and achieve a 4.5 score. So the highest weight a student can obtain is 4.0. Without weighting, there is no distinguishing between Honors and remedial classes. So, perversely, students are motivated to take the easiest possible core curricula to maximize their potential to achieve a 3.7 GPA.
Finally, the 3.7 requirement to maintain the scholarship is completely unreasonable. The average GPA at Georgia Tech is approximately 3.08 (see chart). To graduate with an engineering degree from Georgia Tech requires a 2.0, and the average GPA of Tech Presidential Scholars (the top 150 in each class) is 3.68 (source: http://www.me.gatech.edu/docs/ME%20low%20res%20proof.pdf, page 9 ). Student’s in Georgia Tech’s Honors Program have average GPAs of less than 3.5 (see chart. Source: http://www.me.gatech.edu/docs/ME%20low%20res%20proof.pdf, p 21). Given these statistics, the bulk of Georgia Tech’s students, including its Presidential and Honors awardees, would fail to qualify for the proposed Zell Miller Scholarship.
These facts relating to the GPA requirement are in conflict with the stated intent of the Zell Miller Scholarship. We should not be penalizing students who pursue the most challenging curricula in our high schools and universities. And we should not be creating perverse incentives to take easier classes or attend less challenging Universities.
I hope the Georgia legistature will consider these arguments persuasive and work to eliminate the GPA requirement from the Zell Miller Scholarship and focus instead on the SAT/ACT requirement.
Ninya
February 24th, 2011
9:31 am
@ Shivam Komar – I received my associates from Georgia Perimeter last spring on HOPE. I never received an excess as you mention. I won’t say that doesn’t happen, but it certainly never happened to me.
Shivam Kumar
February 24th, 2011
10:17 am
@Ninya
Apparently it didn’t happen to you and a lot of other people, but it definitely happened to the person i was referring too, I guess he just got lucky or somehow tricked the system.
blackbird13
February 24th, 2011
7:06 pm
@confused
“my interests are not politics at this moment (and I don’t feel like I should feel shamed for it either)”
Not ashamed, but negligent. Not being interested does not justify not paying attention. Lots of things in life will require your attention that are tedious (or seem so now). But I commend you for at least looking at the bill and asking questions.
The bill could change; in fact, already the hit retailers would have taken has been reduced (no surprise there). Find out who your state rep. is and write him or her, keep track of how they vote on the issue, and tell your friends about it.
UGA Sophomore
February 24th, 2011
7:29 pm
I can’t express how discouraging it is to know that even though I currently have a 3.72 GPA, I will never again have the full hope scholarship because I graduated high school with a 3.6. All our lives, we have been told that a 3.0 minimum will get us a full scholarship. Now I’m losing 10% of it because I didn’t live up to standards that didn’t even exist 3 years ago? This really isn’t fair.
Steven
February 24th, 2011
8:13 pm
Just fund HOPE, the state is still spending money anyway. The fact that more people are going to college is a testiment to its success not a problem. Just cut in another area or raise taxes on the richer Georgians
Scott
February 24th, 2011
11:03 pm
Why are HOPE changes moving so mysteriously quickly through GA government when we typically take our good ol’ southern time to make adjustments? While everyone across the state fusses over the problems the proposed HOPE changes cause us personally there are some even larger issues in this that are being overlooked. Follow the money on the Lottery Corp end of this issue, and the supposed funding problems of HOPE don’t seem nearly as dire as the governor or legislators suggest. Until Lottery Corp abides by the law, and our GA government enforces that, there should be few changes to HOPE.
While it makes perfect sense to only spend what you have there is much more to the story. Lottery Corp does not send the legal percentage of proceeds to HOPE, nor are they held accountable. I wonder why the governor and legislature are resistant to this? Usually to balance an equation, or a ledger, you need to work both sides of the formula!
“Georgia statute states that ‘as nearly as practical,’ net proceeds should equal 35 percent of lottery proceeds. At the end of each quarter, all net proceeds should be deposited by the Georgia Lottery into the Lottery for Education account established by the Treasury. The statute also says ‘as nearly as practical’ 45 percent of actual lottery sales should be made available as prize money. But since the lottery first began selling tickets in 1994, it has only deposited more than 35 percent of lottery proceeds in FY95, one of the two years it was only required to deposit 30 percent. Since then, the Georgia Lottery has not met the 35 percent mandate established by the legislature. While the actual amount deposited into the Lottery for Education account has increased every year except FY98, the percent deposited compared to total proceeds has steadily declined. At the same time, the percent spent on prize money has steadily increased.”
http://www1.legis.ga.gov/legis/2011_12/senate/columns_10022009.htm
Wearing Me Out
February 25th, 2011
9:46 am
Decided to do some more research based upon the comments on this thread. Clear to me this is a state of the Bubbas, by the Bubbas, and for the Bubbas. But you people keep electing them. They are the sheep dogs who keep herding you and you silently submit.
As far as USG expenses, yeah the system is bloated. Probably no more or less than any other system. But two wrongs rarely make a right. So Peter robs Paul and reduces funding to you. Then you find a way to make it work and live within your means. Paul shouldn’t in turn rob Mary (the students/families) and continually raise tuition. In case you haven’t heard, inflation in this country has been dead for many, many years. Except for medical and educational institutions, both of whom feel a warped sense of entitlement. Tuition was raised $1,000 last year. This was covered by HOPE. Institutional fees are now up to $200 per semester. This is nothing more than an amount to be thrown into the tuition bucket. Call it what you want. So if they decide to increase it again (which they will), this will now be unfunded by HOPE. People. They could easily say they need an extra $5,000 a year and this will come out of your pockets. There are absolutely no checks and balances. There would be no recourse by students and parents being held hostage.
I checked the USG salaries of faculty. Yeah, they do make a good living. Less than the private sector? Who knows, but that was their choice. More or less than other systems, probably, but cost of living, etc., factors into this as well. Comparatively speaking, you reside in lower cost of living areas than many parts of the country with similar institutions.
Some have complained about furlough days and changes to the health plan. Have to say the hit for the furlough days is really an insignificant amount compared to what you would get standing in the unemployment line. .38 of 1% for each of up to 6 days max. As far as your benefits, they probably still far exceed what the private sector has done to their employees the past few years. I’ve read your 2011 plan offerings and would not complain about it for a second.
http://www.usg.edu/research/faculty/salary/fac-sal-usg08.pdf
http://www.usg.edu/hr/documents/furlough_fy2010.pdf
http://www.hr.uga.edu/benefits/bensumm/health_summ.html#ppo
As far a Pre-K, yes it is nursery. That is what is was called before the advent of the term Pre-K. No point in getting beat up by the Pre-K teachers who don’t want to feel threatened about their choice of profession, but will link a position paper on the subject. It caught my interest because there are some observations made by Ed Zigler, co-founder of Head Start and part of the Yale faculty when the article was published. A portion of his observations from the link below:
http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/2005/nov05/542.pdf
“Zigler describes the danger in assuming benefits for middle-class children: There is a large body of evidence indicating that there is little if anything to be gained by exposing middle class children to early education… Those who argue in favor of universal preschool education ignore evidence that
indicates early schooling is inappropriate for many four-year olds and that it may even be harmful to their development. Zigler cites research showing that conversations children have at home with parents, siblings, and family may be the richest source of linguistic and cognitive enrichment for children from all but the most deprived backgrounds. He also cites research showing that premature schooling can slow or reduce a child’s overall development by replacing valuable playtime.”
Funny, but Georgia is still testing near the bottom of the nation in many areas on education, including National Assessment of Education Progress tests given in the 4th grade. Georgia ranks in the bottom 10, yet none of the states in the top 10 have universal preschool programs. We have dumped $4 billion from lottery proceeds into Pre-K and we still rank at the bottom. People. This is a parent problem. Period. Without our having spent $4 billion for Pre-K on 4 years olds, Georgia could likely have given full rides (including room and board) to the students. It just doesn’t make sense. If a low income parent needs nursery, then you have Head Start or other programs. If you are middle to upper income, then there are many private facilities to provide a nursery/Pre-K service at “your” expense.
Lastly, I’ve just read the Georgia Lottery financial report from November 1992 thru June 2010. This is a joke. Only 13.9 cents of every dollar went to HOPE. Of this, 1.8 cents for books and 2.0 cents for fees is being eliminated. So, appears now about only 10 cents per dollar is going to HOPE.
You got what you voted for Bubbas. One of the highest foreclosure rates in the country. One of the highest bank failure rates in the country. One of the highest unemployment rates in the country. Near the bottom in education. A shadow over some of your elected officials.
Jessica
February 25th, 2011
7:05 pm
I teach Pre-K and for those who “THINK” you know what we Pre-K teachers do all day…I invite you to come to my or any other Georgia Pre-K classroom…it is NOT a GLORIFIED DAYCARE CENTER…with children running around and teachers playing all day!
We are preparing the children not only for Kindergarten…but for the rest of their educational career and LIFE…
Ask any kindergarten teacher of the children they have in their classrooms that have gone to Pre-K and see what they think about the Pre-K children…
If some of their children had not attended Pre-K…I can not imagine them being able to stay afloat and make sure they are able to teach all the standards that they are required by the state for them to teach.
Also…if you move Pre-K to a 4 hour day…think of all the parents that may have to quit their jobs because they will not be able to PAY for someone to keep their child while at work IF they can find somewhere for them to go…causing more families to stop working and become dependant on WELFARE…causing MORE PROBLEMS!!!
I agree that there needs to be some changes in education and HOPE and other areas…but why do you START with our most precious possession at the age of 4…
There is data and studies that show what Pre-K has and will continue to do for GEORGIA if it is left alone…
Pre-k
February 26th, 2011
11:52 am
Anybody else notice that the only people that care at all about Pre-K are it’s teachers?
Karen G
February 27th, 2011
8:21 am
The reduction in the lottery funded pre K hours will result in:
4200 Bachelor’s degree or higher Teachers losing $10,000 income plunging them from $30,000 to $20,000 per year.
4200 Para Professional pay reduces from approx. $14,000 down to $8,000.00
The Teachers and Para-professionals who have health benefits will now be considered part time and lose all health benefits.
The Nutritional component of the pre k program will be lost. No Breakfast or lunch.
We will have a Pre K “Latch Key” epidemic where parents can not quit their jobs but are willing to run home at lunch and take the child home telling them to “Be good” while alone until a sibling arrives home from school a few hours later or until the parent arrives home in the evening.
And then there are all the Special Needs Children who are in inclusion Pre K classes. They need the extended learning day. Their IEPs are based on a full day pre K .
The ramifications in the reduction of the PreK program are so far reaching. I think it’s time we say “NO DEAL!”