Second bill opens public school clubs, teams to outside students

So, can public school students take advantage of private schools teams and clubs? So, is it right that a private school student can take the place of a student currently enrolled at the public school?

Sounds like the recent Valedictorian issue in Cherokee.

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This is the flip side of vouchers–the argument will be made (just wait) that if a kid’s parents are to be legally denied the public school services paid for by their taxes then they should get those taxes back in the form of a voucher to fund the educational option they are pursuing.

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Wow, Maureen – where is this type of investigative reporting when it comes to the corrupt School Board and DCSS? How about getting your hands on the 2005 E&Y Personnel Audit that has magically disappeared and calculating how much taxpayer money is literally flushed down the drain when it is put into the hands of illiterate people making 6-figure salaries.

Based upon what we spend per student compared to the rest of the country, each child should have access to these types of programs that should be funded and more. Teachers should not be “volunteering” their time, but the schools can help build the community by including those children who are homeschooled and in private schools because their parents are still paying the property taxes funding the schools yet not reaping any return (can’t say BENEFIT in DeKalb CSS). Reward the parents who give a damn about their children’s education and decide to keep them out of the corrupt and poorly managed APS and DCSS. They will take their money and make community clubs for the kids.

The bills are a sign that metro Atlantans are paying more and more in taxes, the lion’s share still goes to the school system and the parents are sick of it. More money and our scores go down yet adminstrators have earned on average 20% more during the recession as teachers got pay reductions (you know, those furloughs)? Where is that article?

One of the things that private schools cannot provide to their students are the vast array of organizations that the public system has because of its size. The School System should be thanking the taxpayers for only asking for this if they are not “educating” the students.

I am saddened that the AJC are not screaming from the rooftops as to how broken the APS and DCSS and that in grand ol’ Southern fashion we are going to pass on a “Bless Their Hearts” because they are “trying” as we watch taxpayer dollars wasted and stolen and our children not given access to viable public school systems.

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I guess the PUBLIC SCHOOL PRINCIPAL could charge the PRIVATE school children a fee for entrance to the school’s playground. Donations to the Principal’s fund could allow you other favors, too.
The APS system does not have a proven record of ethical standards to show how this could possibly work without corruption. In the wrong hands…this is another money, making under the table favor for those willing to play the PRINCIPAL’S game.

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The public school teachers have too many mandates, bosses, obligations, and duties as it is. If you belong to the YMCA, do you automatically gain entrance to the local country club? I don’t think so. When parents make choices, they should have to honor their own decisions. The Bill of Rights does not mean everybody gets to do everything they want because that would be “fair” for them. I, too, want the best for all students in Georgia, but we have to have structures and guidelines in place for it to work.I should not be held responsible for students who have no obligations to my school and it’s authority. My own children went to a private school because we chose that for them. We paid above and beyond and extra for our decision. We never expected the public schools to do anything for our children because we chose a different education for them. Public schools are not in their totality an inalienable right; they are a privilege!

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Since the legislature seems by all accounts to be driving the bus, metaphorically speaking, to charter schools/vouchers anyway, what difference will it make in five years? For now, if you choose to remove your child from the public school setting, you get what you get. If your private school only offers soccer and you want football, you shouldn’t have chosen that school. If you want a club, volunteer to start and maintain it.

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@Ann – Taxpayer cost does not cover equipment, janitorial services, or insurance. We pay a fee for the use of facilities. Let the outsiders that want a similar program either join our school or start their own.

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@Warrior Woman/HStchr…I understand the argument…

but I am somewhat interested in this…my son attends a private school (because middle school in my area is VERY shaky)…he worked hard to get good grades and was very involved in extra-curriculars in public school.

granted, he may have left the building…but he is still part of the community. he maintains his friends, etc. I would gladly pay a fee so that he continue his involvement/membership as a junior Beta Club, etc.

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Anyone on this blog, who is interested in maintaining public education, be on watch. School vouchers, are likely to be voted on this session, in the guise of charter schools and the “trigger option”

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It is not YOUR school – it is a PUBLIC school that is paid for by local, state, and federal tax dollars. You may be employed by the school system or your child may attend the school, but it does not belong solely to you to decide who gets to use the facilities. I won’t even bother debating this again because it was covered in the previous blog.

Times have changed and trying to stay the same just makes the school system obsolete. I think it is a big mistake to just keep holding on to an old model that doesn’t work and then to threaten and bully people who make other choices.

Oh, and leave the poor Valedictorian of that school alone. She did NOTHING wrong. I know you want to take her award away from her and give it to the more popular student, but making her a villain doesn’t help the cause.

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I live in the APS school district, and we have already been able to do this, so evidently some school districts already have some sort of policy. My private school kid attended an APS summer program years ago. There was a fee paid, but I think everyone had to pay it. The program was an APS program housed at an APS school and staffed with APS teachers. I have also been able to participate in APS parent workshops.

I don’t see the problem. My tax dollars are still going to APS. If they get my money but don’t have to educate my kids, it seems to me they are still coming out ahead. It would behoove local public schools to have genial and mutually appreciative relationships with private school parents. We still live in a neighborhood that supports the local schools by supporting their events. That support comes from people in the neighborhoods, whether they have children in public schools or not.

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I find it ridiculous that teachers would be so against this. As a coach, it’d be awesome to get a great player to help my team. As a former club sponsor, it’d be awesome to get kids in your club that care enough about it to pursue it when they don’t even attend the school. My bet would be that they would be more involved than most of the other club members and actually make the club they participate in better. It’s never really the number of kids that makes sponsoring hard, it’s just the quality.

Now, I don’t know exactly how this works, but don’t these kids’ parents pay taxes that support the school? If they choose to pay extra money to attend other schools, that’s their decision. But if they pay the same amount to the school system in taxes, why don’t they have equal claim to what it offers?

Stop whining about everything, teachers, and just be happy you still have a job. I am.

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Perhaps the virtual, charter, private, and homeschooled children interested could be banded together into one team/club, led by their “teachers” who volunteer to do so?

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So, does this mean Student X attending HS A canplay for the football team at HS B within the same district?

Maybe this bill will encourage some schools to just abandon all extracurricular activities and let teachers focus on teaching their classes.

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@Oh Well – I understand your interest. When my children were in private school, we paid dearly to keep extracurriculars available to them through private clubs, parks and recreation, etc. We also worked with the school to add clubs and team where there was interest, so I can testify that it is a HUGE pain to get new clubs and sports off the ground.

However, not all activities have unlimited enrollment capabilities. If a team can only have 20 student-athletes, is it fair to have students from outside the school take any of those spots? If a club can only send 10 kids to a competition or activity, is it fair to have even more competition for those slots? What about scholarships? If a club offers a scholarship to it’s top student, should that be available to someone that doesn’t attend the school in question? Why should existing structures at schools be expected to absorb children that aren’t students at those schools instead of expecting those children and their parents to establish suitable programs where they attend?

@Private School Parent – Summer programs are different. They are open to all that pay the fee, regardless of normal attendance zone or school enrollment, and often make a profit for the school system. They are not staffed by volunteers.

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This is to make way for vouchers. Just go to vouchers and skip this nonsense.

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Dunwoody Mom and catlady have got to use better reasoning in their arguments. They make no sense whatsoever.

I have to admite, I’ve started scanning comments on each board looking for the rantings and ravings of Top School. Talk about an axe to grind! I don’t know whatever happened to you at Jackson Elementary, but Lawd almighty, it is entertaining to hear you go on… and on… and on… about it.

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@Teacher and Coach-Exactly!
When I sponsored a club there were a few students that were not assests for the group. I didn’t get to pick the best for my club, it was open to all who qualified. I would have welcomed any student passionate about the same cause or organization for which I was volunteering my time.

I am concerned about any club or sport sponsor who is so overwhelmed they can’t handle a few more students.

The arguement that it’s not fair to parent volunteers makes no sense. We all know about 20% of parents do 80% of the work. The parent volunteers are already accustomed to lack of parental involvement. Home school families would most certainly help. These families would send their children to school if they were just looking for free childcare.

From my experience with scouts and 4-H, the parents of homeschooled students are much more involved than those of brick and mortar students. It may shock some, but I have seen children from all types of schools work well together and compete in both orgaizations.

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@Charter schools are PUBLIC schools-Many small communities do not have private or rec sport leagues after elementary school. Also, many private schools allow home school and charter students to participate in their programs.

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@ Private School parent
I am sure this was an APS Northside School where you were ALLOWED to attend.
And what account was your check deposited?
General Fund? Miscellaneous Account? Re-Organization Account? or Principal’s Fund?

http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com

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@FBT

Agreed. That’s why I’m all for local BOEs and communities deciding for themselves instead of being mandated.

However, choosing to home-school or private-school is a choice, and those choices have consequences. If sports/clubs/activities are very important for a family’s students, then that should be given appropriate weight when making the schooling decision.

That may very well change which schooling option is chosen or even the community where a family decides to live while they are raising students.

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@ Teacher and Coach,

Isn’t APS (for example) a district? There are many zones (or whatever they call it) within each district. So, are we talking about a “district” or a “zone”? If we are talking about a “district”, a student living in Atlanta can play for any HS in APS, according to the language of this bill, right?

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Please, just say no to this crazy idea. In addition to working with students after school, we help look after their grades and conduct. How is that possible with students who do not attend class in the building. Please say no. We just do not need recruiting wars to get any worse.

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Hear, hear to the Dunwoody and Warrior Moms!

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“[C]hoosing to home-school or private-school is a choice, and those choices have consequences.”

Um, yeah.

(One of those consequences, currently, is that you have to pay (or work) to educate your child AND you have to pay to educate everyone else’s children, which is all by itself a pretty darn big consequence. I have friends who have made very large sacrifices, including, possibly, spending their child’s college money or their retirement fund on private school, despite being strongly in favor of public school education, because they felt after giving it a try that the public school was harmful for their particular child. Not everyone whose child is in private school is there because they just like the cachet of private school, and not everyone who could potentially bring a lawsuit against a school under the the civil rights and disability laws does so.)

But what we’re discussing is what consequences those choices *should* have. You can’t answer *that* question by repeatedly saying that “choices have consequences”. It’s not as if the Eleventh Commandment is “thou shalt not attend after-school activities at the public school if thou merely wishes to pay taxes for the public schools rather than also send thy child there five days a week from 7 a.m. – 3:30 p.m.”

“If you want to be part of a school community, be part of it. If not, do your own thing or use Parks and Rec.”

And presumably those who send their kids to public school can’t use Parks and Rec, since they’re not part of that community? (There’s an argument here parallel to the private-schools-siphoning-off-parental-energy argument – if public schools weren’t allowed to have / sponsor / subsidize extracurricular activities, maybe more tax money would go to Parks and Rec or other community activities, or maybe more parents would put their energies there.)

Actually, though, while I strongly disagree with Warrior Woman about which way the fairness issue cuts, I do see the point about school camaraderie / school spirit kind of thing. I mean, you could make the same arguments to allow public/private/homeschooled kids to go to extracurricular activities at schools other than their “local” or “home” schools too – why not anywhere in the district? Presumably the answer to that has something to do with the importance of building and preserving a sense of community.

So one basic question, which is hinted at in many of the posts, is: what do you want the “community” to be? Do you want it to be public school students versus private/home school students? Or do you want the community to be more inclusive? (I would love it if my child’s private school friends could join her in activities at her school. Maybe competitive sports are different, and I don’t really have an opinion on that … so long as my tax dollars aren’t going to subsidize them, as so many knowledgeable posters here seem to be saying is the case.)

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Georgia education is so screwed up…… The republican politicans are and have been leading us down this warped path for too long. When will the people and voters wake up?

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Top School
Nope. It wasn’t.

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High School Coach makes a good point. If students need someone to monitor conduct and grades, it is easily done when the student attends the school. Coaches can talk with teachers, counselors, or administrators quickly and easily. How would you be able to manage this for unenrolled students? Also, as a coach or teacher who supervises a club or activity, you often work with students during the school day (at lunch, for example) or before school. If the club is doing a fundraiser at lunch, students are needed to do that work. The liability for the school of having unenrolled students on campus at lunch time brings to mind all kinds of nightmares. The logistics are going to be unbelievable!

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@privateschoolparent…DITTO!

I have always been in favor of public education…and it really pained me when I came to the realization that for my child – it was slim pickings regarding what was available to us.

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HS Public Teacher complains that this law will spread school funds too thin. Another poster mentioned that the clubs pay their own fees through fund-raising and that school funds are not used. There seems to be different opinions regarding the funding, so it must vary from school to school or program to program.

@Dunwoodian – Why would you have such strong negative feelings about home schoolers? There are many homeschoolers that choose to do so for reasons other than religion. In many cases, it is based on the type of education the child needs, frustrations with large classes and the ever increasing emphasis on standardized testing rather than real learning and creativity

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The extra-curricular activities are an extension of the daytime school community. The school community is made up of the students who attend, the teachers who teach and the parents of the students who attend. There is often a pep rally last period on a Friday for the school community to get ready to cheer on their school mates involved in an athletic event after school.Would you expect to be included in that? Or often football players have a role in homecoming activities? Would you expect to be included in that? Choosing to homeschool or attend private school means you are choosing NOT to be apart of the public school community. Make up your mind; I don’t think you should be able to cherrypick.

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This is in part about the definition of the public school community. Families who are a part of the public school system are immersed in a system where “community” is, by structure, quite narrow. Kids are separated by age, geography, and oftentimes ability into various classes. Aside from exposure to “teachers”, within school time, they have almost no contact with elders in the community at large, and spend most of their time only with kids their own age. How does this prepare kids for the adult, work world, where they must interact and work with people of all ages and generations. John Taylor Gatto, in his book “Dumbing Us Down: the Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling”, writes about the underlying reasons for all this “separation” by age and ability. It is interesting reading.

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We know of many after school programs (for which the parents pay extra) offered at local elementary and charter schools. Many of the programs fill gaps in regular ASP programming, and are things like art, music, foreign languages, yoga, martial arts, etc. I’d like to see these programs opened up to the community as well, as I have heard parents saying “I wish we could have that program at our school”. If done right, perhaps we can.

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It is hard for me to picture public school athletes welcoming private and homeschool students onto their school teams when these same students have rejected the school that the team represents. I think they would be met with hostility. These parents are naive; they may get the law changed, but they will not be welcome.

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It seems to me that there are enough private/homeschool/virtual school students, that they need to form up their own leagues, as previously stated on this blog. What’s the problem with that?

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I’m just happy to hear that there will be a principal taking responsibility for the students’ behaviors and health records. So students spending six months a year in third world countries visiting their grandparents, with all the accompanying third world diseases, will be deemed healthy enough to mix with the general population – shot records up to date etc. Also that students whose parents have had issues with the discipline being too “harsh” (for example – the student was required to behave?) will understand that their little darling can be removed if they act out in extracurricular programs too. And yes, not everyone who chooses home schooling has “perfect” children which is how it seems to be portrayed in this blog. Some of those home school folks are simply trying to escape the responsibilities and discipline that schools require – both parents and children.

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Also, I’m noticing that many of the comments above use pretty loaded language to talk about families who choose to primarily do their educating outside of a school. That these families have “rejected” schools, that they are “cherrypicking” in some unfair way, etc.

I don’t send my kids to school for academics, for the simple reason that they like to do their learning in a less structured environment than our school offers. We have nothing against the school. In fact, my son participated in the middle school band for two years, and loved every minute of it. He enriched the band, and the band enriched him. There are lots more people like me out here. As for cherry-picking, the accusation strikes me as strange. It assumes that School clubs and sports teams are somehow the best thing about what a school offers, and the reward for enduring the other stuff, and therefore its unfair to just make use of the “fun” stuff. I don’t feel that way. I certainly hope families who send their kids to school full-time don’t don’t feel that way, either.

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Please read the posts about FTE again. Homeschool and private school parents are paying state taxes, but the local school gets money from the state based on the number full time enrolled (FTE) students it has. The school only gets money for students who are enrolled full time. You have every right and will be welcomed to enroll your child in your local public school where he may take advantage of all sorts of opportunities he will not have outside of public school. It is also your right to choose to educate your child yourself or in a private school, where he will have different opportunities that he would not have in public school. It is not fair to the FTE students for your unenrolled child to come and go as he pleases.

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Most school clubs and sports teams are set up as tax exempt 501(c)(3,4) organizations. Here’s what the LAW says:

§ 501. Exemption from tax on corporations, certain trusts, etc.

(a) Exemption from taxation
An organization described in subsection (c) or (d) or section 401 (a) shall be exempt from taxation under this subtitle unless such exemption is denied under section 502 or 503.

(c) List of exempt organizations
The following organizations are referred to in subsection (a):
(3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.
(4)
(A) Civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit but operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare, or local associations of employees, the membership of which is limited to the employees of a designated person or persons in a particular municipality, and the net earnings of which are devoted exclusively to charitable, educational, or recreational purposes.
(B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to an entity unless no part of the net earnings of such entity inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/usc_sec_26_00000501—-000-.html

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Several important points:
1. If you read both bills, they only apply to public school students. Charter school students are public school students. That is who the legislators are attempting to serve here, not homeschool or private school students.
2. Charter schools are underfunded since they receive only a portion of the local funding from the district in which they are chartered. They are not able to tap into SPLOST funding for buildings. In many cases charters are located in facilities that lack the typical track, fields, and gyms that traditional public schools possess. APS can spend millions on new school facilities, yet the charter schools in this city have to survive on hand-outs in the form of facilities grants from the state.
3. The limitation that the activity must take place entirely outside of the regular school day will prevent charter school students from joining many activities such as band, drama, or yearbook because in most cases those activities occur during school. Charter schools have yearbooks and BETA clubs, so why would students even be interested in leaving their charter school to go to a traditional HS to participate in something that is already offered in their home school? This proposal would in practicality only apply to sports. Charter schools cannot offer the variety traditional schools do (unless funding models change) and it’s not such a big deal to allow charter school students, if they make the team, to participate. (This might actually make it fair since the school district withholds a portion of the FTE for each charter school student for the “services” the district provides to the charter school.)
4. The law appears to me to go both ways. Traditional public school students would be able to participate in extracurricular activities that occur at charter schools as well. The charter school in my neighborhood offers great after-school clubs and activities (for a fee). Sounds like local children not enrolled at the school could participate too.

Sounds like the idea is for traditional and charter schools to share their resources; isn’t that the first thing we learn in school? How to share?

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there=their, yes, I know the difference:)

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@Ann, I’m not “assuming these students bring in more money and volunteers, opportunities will naturally expand and increase.” I’m not assuming anything. I just know what I see in the attendance zone around the middle school where I teach. Therefore, I know that the money, volunteers, opportunities, expansion, will not happen. Probably the opposite will occur. The number of extracurricular activites offered will decrease.

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I’m originally from a Canadian province where public school teachers are highly unionized and the academics are good (Canada does much better than the US on international comparisons) but teacher-sponsored after school clubs are essentially non-existent. They existed, like here, a generation or two ago, but the rules around them became onerous and since teachers can’t be required to volunteer in this way, they stopped.

Therefore I take quite seriously the comments of some teachers on this blog and the preceding one, that if they have to accept outside students into the clubs they sponsor, they’ll quit sponsoring. It’s perfectly possible for public schools to continue to exist and fulfill their mandate of providing classes, without extracurricular activities, and since this has happened in other places, it could happen here.

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Okay typed a comment and it vanished so will try again. For ES I don’t see the issues. Most clubs are run by outside organizations. Our neighborhood school has KidChess, Club Scientific, Science Olympiads, Art, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts and Acting. Outside of Science Olympiads there are no teachers sponsoring. While there is a teacher sponsor for Science Olympiads it is the parents that are doing the work. If a child misbehaves then the organization, such as Club Scientific, makes the call whether or not a child may continue to participate. Everyone is paying the same fee and the foundation receives a percentage to use for the school.
Our public Middle School has a similar setup. There maybe more named teacher sponsors however most of the work is done by the parents. If there are meetings during the day, I’ve never known about them (although my daughter only attended for 6th grade).
Sports for both ES and MS are handled outside the schools. So those children are used to playing with kids from different school situations.
High School seems to be the rub. I don’t have a child in high school so perhaps the clubs meet during the school day, but I would think that would interfere with seat time. Practice for sports occurs outside of the school day. I did check into the states that allow students, not attending the school, to participate in sports. All must show proof of grades and abide by the same rules as other participants. The students must try out for the sport, they are not guaranteed a spot on the team. I’ve read the blogs that state that the home school students you know of are behind, no problem, they would not score sufficiently on a standardized test to participate, and certainly would not make the debate team.
I think people are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Most people would not take advantage of this.
Now I do have to direct a comment or two at those teachers that have stated they would never sponsor a club or coach if students outside of the school are allowed to participate. Why do you do it in the first place? It certainly isn’t for the children. My husband has coached in a nonpaying position for five years. While the team is an East Cobb team, there are parents bringing their kids from Cherokee, Private Schools, Virtual Schools, and Charter Schools for him to coach. He has helped several obtain goals that allowed them to receive athletic scholarships. In some cases the schools or current team did not allow the same opportunities. Yes, he is employed and often works 13 hour days. He coaches for the kids, no other reason. He doesn’t care where they attend school, come out and do your best and he is happy.

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I read the article with great interest as I’m a homeschooling mom from a state with allows all homeschoolers full and equal access to ALL extracurricular activities, including sports. And you know what? It works just fine! There are safeguards about keeping grades up and safeguards about eligibility within districts, but it’s been a rousing success. Invariably, the homeschool parents are helpful and involved in their children’s sports and clubs, and the schools have been welcoming. I’d write more, but I need to go pick up the team t-shirts, finish the spirit bags and haul the swim team off to State!

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The story is told of an ice cream company executive who was speaking to a gathering of retired educators in Nebraska. He proudly acclaimed the growth of the local company from a small business, started on a dime, to a thriving nationally known brand and how Time Magazine had recently published the company’s successes as one of its cover stories. After the executive completed his speech, he opened the floor to questions from the audience. Several of the retired educators walked to the pre-positioned microphones and asked questions on how the speaker felt his education had helped him in his rise to the top of the business world. He answered these questions with ease. As he prepared to close his presentation, he took the opportunity to address personal concerns he had about the current state of education in America. He spoke of how educators need to work harder to meet the challenges of competing in a rapidly expanding world economy; of how every student must be pushed to score well on standardized tests. He encouraged each person listening to contact an educator and let them know how corporate America is looking to them to produce the next great crop of business leaders. The audience applauded these last comments and everyone was feeling motivated to accept his challenge; or so it seemed.

Near the back of the auditorium, a lone elderly lady rose slowly to her feet. After she steadied herself on the chair in front of her, she began speaking. Her voice was strong and her diction flawless. She asked permission to address the speaker. With a nod, the executive granted her request. Once the audience quieted, she asked, “What type of ingredients do you use in your ice cream?” He answered by saying his company uses only the choicest ingredients. Teams travel the world seeking the finest vanilla beans, cocoa beans, dairy products, sugars, and other ingredients. Then scientists and nutritionists spend months and sometimes years developing each flavor of ice cream until just the right formula is achieved. Only then, are the products sent to market. The aging educator stood tall and responded, “Public school teachers don’t get to choose which ingredients we use. They use whatever children are brought through their doors; ripe and unripe, bruised, battered, diseased, tattered, and torn. Yet they are expected to produce the same quality results your ice cream company does.” The speaker stood quietly, allowing the words to sink in. He was trying to formulate a disarming response, but the realization of the truth in the lady’s words left him speechless. He finally understood how difficult the challenges our public school teachers face.

Most private and charter schools have a selection process through which they filter students that do not fit their school’s mold. Ask most private schools to provide services for a quadriplegic or a child with severe emotional problems and the great majority will turn them away. The only alternative for these students will be public schools. Public schools must discover ways to keep students with behavior problems from being suspended, expelled or dropping out altogether. When they fail to do this, it shows in the “Annual Yearly Progress” (AYP) report. Drop one student below the designated line in one single school and the entire system fails to meet AYP. I do not oppose private or charter schools. In fact, I applaud their successes. My point is simply; don’t compare the results of traditional public schools to them.

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@iamshell
You have intuitively pointed out the UNCONSTITUTIONAL nature of public schools. If you read the history of the passage of state compulsory attendance laws, you will find that many opposed it on those grounds. By comparison, home schooling IS Constituitonally based, AS IT EXISTED FIRST!
If you replaced “public school” in your scenario with the word “public parks”, the answer would be an obvious YES! Why? What is the difference?

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@ East Cobb Parent. You mention: “I’ve read the blogs that state that the home school students you know of are behind, no problem, they would not score sufficiently on a standardized test to participate, and certainly would not make the debate team.” I wouldn’t generalize about home-schoolers achievements based on a few blog comments about individual children and assume few would qualify. They are getting into college at pretty high rates. Numerous research studies conducted the last couple of decades show that the homeschooled scored, on average, at the 65th to 80th percentile on standardized academic achievement tests in the United States and Canada, compared to the public school average of the 50th percentile. There was a higher percentage of literacy before formal schooling was established, when everyone was home schooled.

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As a volunteer leader of an elementary school afterschool sports program, I worry about the safety aspect of this issue. It is hard enough keeping up with 30-40 kids you barely know. Adding a few that the kids don’t even know would make my job even harder. I would allow outside kids to participate IF I get the OK from school folks AND the parent agrees to stick around to help. I welcome community support, I just don’t want to be the babysitter for parents who otherwise are doing nothing for my school.

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@Toto – 501(c)(3) organizations are not required to take all comers. The American Cancer Society is not required to serve Alzheimer’s patients. Further, the organizations are not required to provide more services than their capabilities permit. These organizations can be formed for very specific purposes, such as “to serve the female student-athletes of XYZ High School” or “to support leadership, sportsmanship, and learning through ABC sport at XYZ High School.” These are quoted, with names changed, from currently valid 501(c)(3) filings in the state of Georgia. They are specific, and one could argue that serving populations other than those in their 501(c)(3) filings would be improper. Further, public schools are not GIVING anything to clubs. Clubs are renting facilities and teachers and parents are volunteering their time as sponsors.

@Ann and JenDowney – The language used with respect to homeschoolers and private schoolers is no less kind than has been used to discuss public schoolers in the past, including some of your allegations. Pot, meet Kettle.

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Sorry went to say “in your school behave and others do not”

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@East Cobb Parent – Thanks for clarifying. I understand your point now (with the sarcasm you intended) and it is a good one.

@Warrior Woman – I have not made any derogatory comments about public school students. I am a product of public school myself. My past comments were about the frustrations and resentment of “some” parents regarding families who make other choices, the expansion of opportunities with a wider participation pool in activities, and comments about the “school system structure” and it’s limitations, such as the disconnect between what employers need and how students are prepared for the world.

I believe there are many paths to becoming “educated” and that there is not one right or wrong way that applies to everyone. Maybe one day we will have meaningful reform in public schooling. The answer cannot be found in throwing money or time (such as extended hours) at the problem. I think most people would agree that there is much room for improvement.

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@Atlanta mom
This website indicates that at the time of the Revolution, the literacy rate was nearly 100%.
I doubt that 100% of the children were home schooled, but most began their education (reading and writing) at home. There were few quality public schools at the time.

“While Webster’s adult life was documented in his diary, not much is known about his childhood. However, it is very likely that Noah Webster had little formal schooling and was largely self-educated. He would have attended school for only a few months out of the year (from December to March) when his labor wasn’t required on the farm.

In fact, the majority of education in early America was done by the parents, church, tutors, and apprenticeships. Such training produced in our Founding Fathers the greatest group of men in character and reasoning of all time. Noah Webster was a contemporary of George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton – all of whom were self-educated.

At the time of the Revolution, the literacy level in America was the highest that it’s ever been – virtually 100%! John Adams said that to find someone who could not read was as rare as finding a comet. And yet by the end of the American Revolution, many towns still had no public schools and few people went to college. Those students who did go to college were instructed by tutors – most often ministers – and we do know that Noah Webster’s parents hired a tutor so that he could enter Yale College at age 16.

After he graduated in 1778, Noah wanted to study law (at the first law school in America) but he could not afford it. By this time more schoolhouses were being built, so Noah became a teacher to support his own studies. He did not like the American common (public) schools, however, saying: “The general institution of schools in this country is full proof that …people never misapply their economy so much, as when they make a provision for the education of children.”

http://www.famoushomeschoolers.net/bio_noah.html

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your should be you’re
Guess I’m a little illiterate myself tonight.

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@Atlanta mom – The literacy rate has been quite high in the past even among minority or disadvantaged populations. In the late 1800’s, early 1900’s in the U.S., a majority of African Americans were literate. There are, of course, variations in percentages depending on what research you look at, but 80% is often reported, although higher and lower figures are out there, too. The Armed Forces is now concerned about the significant drop in literacy since those times. Soldiers must have a minimum competency in reading (4th grade proficiency to read road signs, safety instructions, etc.). In World War II, the rate of literacy among applicants/draftees was 96%. By the Korean War, it had dropped to 81% and by the end of the Vietnam War, it had dropped to 73%. This was despite an increase of funds and more professionally trained personnel. The point being made is that literacy rates have dropped as more schooling has been formalized and more time and money is placed into the public school structure. This applies across racial and economic groups. So, why are the desired outcomes dropping? For more information on the Armed Forces illiteracy issue, see http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/3b.htm

In the initial article of this blog, Maureen asks why we should expect schools to do “more, with less” by accepting other kids into the extracurricular programs. In regards to the literacy discussion, the claim is that schools did “more, with less” in the past. They can do “more, with less” now if they are free to “mix things up”. It is not the fault of teachers, students or parents. The problem is the overall structure of schools, the length of time spent in that structure (long days over many, many years). It takes less than 100 hours to actually learn to read. Long ago, people learned to read and write in a short time, then were out in the community or work world applying that skill and they could see the application and direct benefit of that knowledge. Now, because of the length of school time, that application is far removed, and boredom sets in and a lack of desire to learn.

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@Ann,

Re literacy rates, I prefer sources such as this: http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp#illiteracy

Note that the table gives illiteracy rates, not literacy rates. So according to self-reported data on the 1870 census, for example, 20% of the population was illiterate, including almost 80% of African Americans. By 1900 this had fallen to 44.5%. These numbers hardly fit with your claims.

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[...] clear which kids each of these similar bills was representing. (See earlier blogs for background. This one is about 55. This one is about [...]

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