Should non students be able to join school clubs, teams?
Many school clubs depend on fund raising rather than taxes. (AJC file)
Take a look at Senate Bill 55 and Senate Bill 34, both of which require public schools to allow children who are not enrolled to participate in extracurricular activities.
I understand the impetus and the impulse, but at some point, don’t schools have the right to ask: How much more can we do?
Schools can barely meet the needs of their own students, and now Sen. Chip Rogers and the Georgia Senate want them to open their doors to non students?
These bills would mandate access to all after-school clubs, sports and programs to students outside of the school. (Neither bill speaks to private school students yet, but that is probably soon to come.)
Consider that many after-school activities are financed by parent fund-raising and staffed by the parents themselves. Some after-school clubs depend on teacher volunteers. There is little taxpayer money going into most after-school activities.
How can the Senate mandate that these volunteer parents and teachers accept kids from outside the school community?
It is one thing to allow homeschoolers or students from other schools to come into programs that are underwritten by fees, as long as there’s room. But these bills speak to all extracurriculars, many of which are purely powered by volunteers.
SB 34 states: A public school shall allow any nonenrolled student to participate in any extracurricular activity offered or conducted by such public school outside of regular school hours in the same manner as any student currently enrolled at such public school. ‘Nonenrolled student’ means a student enrolled in a charter school or a virtual school
who resides within the attendance zone of a public school but who is not enrolled in such school.
SB 55 just dropped this afternoon and is not yet posted on the state web site. It also deals with extracurriculars, but addresses homeschoolers rather than students from charters or virtual schools.
Beyond the financial implications, these bills raise safety and logistical concerns. An influx of kids from outside the building into clubs, sports or after-school jazz bands or strings groups requires someone to manage both arrival and departure and the communications. My own twins learn most updates on their club meetings and sports via the school announcements.
I am sure that homeschooling parents will argue that they are paying taxes and thus should be able to treat public school offerings as a buffet line, picking the activities that suit their kids. In some cases, that may be a good idea. For example, there’s a growing trend of homeschooled students attending one or two courses a day at their local schools. I understand and endorse that concept because tax dollars are paying for those courses.
But very little tax money goes into most after-school program. It takes silent auctions, bake sales and wrapping paper sales to support many of them.
Should the Senate be able to mandate that schools open all their extracurricular activities to non students?
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog.
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136 comments Add your comment
HS Public Teacher
February 8th, 2011
12:51 pm
Here is the REALITY….
I sponsor clubs because I already know the kids and have a personal and vested interest in their success. I enjoy helping these kids. I get NO MONEY for sponsoring clubs – it is on my own time.
If I am forced to accept anyone outside of the school into my clubs, that will end it for me. I will no longer be a sponsor for anything.
If parents of homeschooled kids want their kids to be in a club, let them start their own club. Let them sponsor it, arrange for field trips, and do all of the work this includes. I will not do it for them.
Marcie
February 8th, 2011
12:59 pm
“submit to our authority” — chilling.
Perhaps that is why we should rethink government coerced compulsory attendance. If as a society we helped people do what is right for them rather that trying to pretend everyone is the same in their learning styles and interests, we’d welcome those who choose to study at home as well as those who take advantage of tax supported options. Not being able to see this is a failure of imagination. It doesn’t surprise me that families who want to take responsibility for their children’s education may have trouble getting enough folks together for a big club-type experience, and they may have to hire out expertise to teach chemistry. Why would we not want our schools to serve them as one of the options?
Cherry picking should teach us what we are doing well; not make us hang on to it to punish people who don’t take the parts of our system that don’t work. That just doesn’t make any sense.
Failure. Of. Imagination.
TelllinItLikeItIs
February 8th, 2011
1:23 pm
There is not a good reason why they should not. They pay the taxes to support it just like the other homeowners – and probably contribute more financially than those in apartments.
Warrior Woman
February 8th, 2011
1:33 pm
I can speak to funding of band and sports in Cobb County. These activities are predominately funded by student fees and fundraisers. Some of these fundraisers occur during the school day and some occur outside of it. If kids from outside our school want to participate, they should have to be academically eligible, geographically eligible, and financially eligible. This means they should have to pay fees at least equal to what the students of the school pay and the parents meet the same support requirements as the parents of students (in other words, spend the required number of hours in volunteer activities that support the team or club). Otherwise, it would be unfair to the students that are funding the program.
Of course, given the nature of grading at some home and charter schools, proving academic eligibility could be problematic. So could participating in fundraisers, since some occur during school.
And before I take a beating for my comments, I am school choice supporter – home schools, charter schools, and vouchers. However, when you choose a particular education option, you should recognize that you are giving up other options. These proposals smack of having your cake and eating it too.
Booklover
February 8th, 2011
2:32 pm
As a teacher, I would not sponsor or work with any club or sport that had non-students involved. I don’t care if those students are homeschooled, private school students, or whatever. The fact of the matter is that activities are an extension of school and there will be behavior and liability issues if non-students are allowed to participate.
My school makes it very clear that students enrolled at alternative school (Ombudsman) are NOT allowed to attend Prom. Students from other schools must bring a discipline record to attend Prom. Those not enrolled in a regular GA public high school must also be finger-printed at the local police office and have a background check performed. This policy exists because of behavior and conduct issues on behalf of previous Prom attendees. Ask yourself, would you want your child to attend Prom, play a sport, or be on a club with a non-student who had a criminal conviction?
AJinCobb
February 8th, 2011
2:56 pm
@Marcie,
“Cherry picking should teach us what we are doing well; not make us hang on to it to punish people who don’t take the parts of our system that don’t work. That just doesn’t make any sense.
Failure. Of. Imagination.”
Back in the real world, many administrators, teachers and parents already know quite well what parts of the system aren’t working well. Of course we should always be striving for improvement, but there are real limitations due to funding, human frailties and the requirements of justice.
As the parent of a student at a public high school, I’d love to be able to not take the parts of the system that aren’t working well for my child. Where do I sign up? There’s one teacher I’d like to dump from my kid’s schedule, pronto. I’d also like to excuse my kid from certain requirements that I think are just busy work or poorly chosen, oh and allow him to come for lunch, while we’re at it. Some of the draconian disciplinary regulations are just over the top for my responsible and well behaved child. I’d like to pick and choose those to which he should be subjected.
Well, it’s a nice fantasy. However, the fact that we can’t easily get from here to there is not, in my opinion, “Failure. Of. Imagination.” It’s just the practical reality of the requirement to serve a full cross-section of society in a safe, equitable and cost-effective manner as the taxpayers seem to require.
Marcie
February 8th, 2011
3:24 pm
@AJinCobb – homeschool. And encourage rather than discourage school reform that helps families identify their real needs rather than presuming that all needs are the same. What’s been historical practice has not proven practical OR cost-effective — I’m not sure why we are hanging on to it. We have some systems spending upward of $15,000 per year per kid for this scattershot approach with fully 1/3 of students failing to graduate. Hardly cost effective – or effective in general. We need to pressure our politicians to get away from this fruitless standardization and allow EVERYONE to cherry pick. Inviting homeschooling in and allowing us to serve them might lead to innovations that would benefit students across the board.
I admit that it’s a far cry from the direction we are going. That is why I call it failure of imagination. We simply can NOT think of what it would be like to provide education for people on a basis that allows them the flexibility to get what they are interested in and when they are developmentally ready for it. This seems to me to be the whole key to the success of a homeschooling approach. But right now we are stuck on compelling children to try to do things regardless or readiness. We see ed as a necessarily adversarial thing. I see homeschoolers with a whole ‘nother approach – where people are learning together and doing activities that interest and fulfill them. But we have let the institution and institutionalized givens become more important than the young people we hope to assist in their development.
I think you SHOULD pick and choose AJinCobb. I think you should. But please note, those who say you must submit to “our authority” will fight you all the way. Frankly I think that is reason enough to either get out or work to make changes.
Allen
February 8th, 2011
3:49 pm
By some of the logic I’ve seen here, since my kids go to a charter school we can’t use the school playground up the street (that my tax dollars pay for) and if my kid wanted to join–paying all fees–the Boy Scout troop that meets at a church that would be wrong since we’re not parishioners.
AJinCobb
February 8th, 2011
4:10 pm
@Allen,
Of course, since charter schools are public schools, you’re equally open to other children who aren’t enrolled using your kids’ school facilities and joining their clubs and programs, too, since everyone’s tax dollars are paying for the school.
long time educator
February 8th, 2011
4:10 pm
I agree with the feelings of AJinCobb. I am not sure what the legal answer is, but to allow the homeschooler to “cherrypick” the public school experience will have a huge impact on regular ed students wanting to do the same, especially those who drive. It also fits in with the idea of dual enrollment I mentioned on another topic that we ought to consider doing away with compulsory attendance in order to solve some discipline problems, but this idea may do away with it from another angle. Effectively, home school parents only have to register their children with the local district and keep attendance and that is the extent of regulation. Parents already seem to want a junior college model with kids coming and going at will. This may be the beginning of the end of high schools as we knew them.
Allen
February 8th, 2011
4:17 pm
Actually charter schools are only partially supported by tax dollars, but our outdoor facilities are completely open and the indoors open when the building is open, just like any other school. The only difference is you’d need permission from the school and the landlord rather than the school and whatever the governing authority is. And we make a point of advertising the programs we can afford to the broader community.
long time educator
February 8th, 2011
4:21 pm
My last post needs a period after enrollment in the fifth line. Sorry.
AJinCobb
February 8th, 2011
4:28 pm
@Marcie,
Your idealism is impressive but you mistake where I’m coming from. I’m very satisfied with the public school education my child is receiving and couldn’t begin to equal it at home. My child is a junior in mostly AP courses and while I have a master’s degree in a scientific field, I have a job to go to and couldn’t be sitting at home studying up to stay ahead in Calculus B/C and the like, then doing the teaching and grading. I know little of home schooling but to be honest, I am skeptical that the typical stay-at-home Mom can provide a complete, quality high school education at the kitchen table, and as for working parents who purport to home school, well, I can’t begin to imagine how that could be accomplished.
I’m a skeptic about the notion that an adequate education can be provided by just having people do “activities that interest and fulfill them” when they feel like it. Memorizing times tables is neither interesting nor very fulfilling, frankly, but it has to be done. Adult life involves a lot of participating in or dealing with institutions and bureaucracies, and I actually consider one of the benefits of traditional school (public or private) to be the experience it provides in coping with institutional life.
When I choose a physician, I want them to be a board-certified graduate of a well renowned medical school, not a person who completed a personally fulfilling course of self-directed study. I think standards and credentials are important, and that means there has to be authority somewhere. I don’t find that “chilling”.
I thought Booklover provided a valuable point too, that when we talk about opening school activities to unenrolled kids from the community, we can’t assume that only well behaved offspring of wonderful, devoted parents will turn up.
Marcie
February 8th, 2011
5:53 pm
AJinCobb, your child is doing fine. But 1/3 fail to graduate our schools. That’s huge. I fail to see how a homeschooler’s odds are much worse than what happens in my school to 1 in 3 kids.
HS Public Teacher
February 8th, 2011
7:04 pm
@Marcie -
It is BECAUSE you ‘fail to see’ is why I feel bad for your kids.
Marcie
February 8th, 2011
7:06 pm
One more thing that I’m thinking. Homeschoolers don’t seem to me to be teaching calculus at the kitchen table all the time. They seem to be enrolling in university classes for those as high schoolers, taking those classes at community college, or getting tutors. Why would public schools not also want to be a resource for them?
As it turns out, some googling shows me that homeschoolers get accepted to college very well – Stanford says at higher rates than public schoolers, so they are covering that hard math/science pretty thoroughly if they want to go that direction. It looks also to me that homeschool moms are college grads at a higher rate than nonhomeschoolers and also a lot have advanced degrees. The families I know do outsource subjects that parents don’t want to teach, including trading with one another. Again, our schools could be a resource for them, possibly broadening the idea of school as a true community resource rather than as a lock-step closed off institution that is so separate from the real world. I think that it would enhance schools – but they would have to change to make it work.
But THAT is what we’re afraid of. Idealism is only idealism until someone makes it happen. If we don’t do it from within our schools, someone will do it outside of schools. However, I agree that government making school compulsory and then mandating standardization makes it hard to overcome the resistance to meaningful change.
Marcie
February 8th, 2011
7:16 pm
Standards and credentials are important for some jobs, but we’re not getting anywhere near credentials with so many of our students who never graduate – much less to medical school!
We’ve got a little leap in logic going on if we are comparing parents getting their kids through high school to medical school, which is obviously much more specialized. I may have overlooked something when I saw all the great colleges and universities that homeschoolers are attending and doing well in when I googled, but I did not see any evidence of anyone trying to homeschool med school.
Perhaps those of us who work in schools would like to think our jobs can’t be done by anyone else, but I don’t think it’s true, and I think it causes us to miss ways that we could enhance our profession and advance public education in meaningful ways.
Marcie
February 8th, 2011
7:32 pm
HS Public Teacher – LOL – you don’t have to worry about my kids. They already survived public schools and are doing fine. I might have homeschooled then but not many people had heard of it. Though we at times considered private school, homeschooling wasn’t really on my radar. As a teacher myself, I’m now opening my eyes to the innovation that homeschooling represents. I do all I can do in the classroom but am fascinated by the potential of school changing with the times to truly be innovative and meet individuals’ and society’s needs.
long time educator
February 8th, 2011
8:05 pm
Home schooling in Georgia is very unregulated; it can be almost anything. The way it is being portrayed on this particular topic sounds great: very involved, educated parents who want to give their children the best education possible. It is not always that way. We set up an attendance review for a fourth grader because she had missed so many days. She was staying home to watch after a toddler while her mother seemed to stay in bed (maybe depression, mental illness…) We weren’t sure. Her father, who is the only parent we ever saw, worked a regular job. When contacted about the meeting with the Attendance Team, he contacted the district office to register her for home school. Case closed.
Marcie
February 8th, 2011
8:42 pm
long time educator, it sounds like the school attendance rules didn’t help. I’m not sure why homeschool regs would help. That would just make it more difficult for all homeschooling parents in general rather than help the little girl who missed school to stay home with her toddler sibling. It would be great if regs could solve everything, but alas, we only have to look at our highly regulated public schools to know that is not the case!
long time educator
February 8th, 2011
9:05 pm
I think most people would be surprised to find that there is almost no accountability in home schooling in Georgia. It does not mean that the child is getting any education at all, only that the parent registered to home school at the district office and some parents use home schooling to get around compulsory attendance laws. I am not necessarily advocating more regulation, just providing another point of view.
Jen
February 8th, 2011
9:48 pm
States with low regulations are considered the best states to homeschool in because this gives people the most complete freedom not to do things the school way. Homeschoolers aren’t too interested in being regulated according to the methods of public education. Homeschoolers are learning in families, and schooled thoughts on accountability aren’t relevant. Some homeschooled boys might not read until 8 or 9 but be reading far above level by age 11. However, school-type accountability might have presumed that education was not taking place when the child was 6 or 7 and forced a school-type intervention – when really more time is needed developmentally. A parent may see rich pre-reading skills being built in the one-on-one situation and not be worried a bit but then have to do something that interferes with the natural progression of literacy because the school *sees* a late reader. Not to mention the fact that schools have legions of late readers and non-readers and that the same interventions don’t do magic for all students there either; thus, we end up with kids in middle school and high school who are not truly literate.
If school accountability were so great, then it would work for schools. To misapply it to families would just be taking school methods that don’t work and extending them into people’s homes.
Parents are already responsible for their children, unless they have outsourced their ed to public or private schools. Homeschooled children do not belong to the government and aren’t being homeschooled with tax dollars; the government needs to show accountability for school performance because it is using tax dollars to attempt to do its job. Just because government is accountable to tax payers does not make homeschooled children accountable to government.
Fire Bad Teachers
February 8th, 2011
10:12 pm
The homes school rules in Georgia are a little flimsy in my opinion, but how do you improve the laws? Require home schooled students to pass the CRCT? They don’t pass, close the homeschool, and they return to public school? Students in public schools don’t pass the CRCT, schools fail to make annual progress, but they aren’t closed.
From my personal experience, the homeschool moms I know have at least a bachelor’s degree, many have advanced degrees, and are or are married to university faculty. Also, many of us are certified teachers. We pool our resources and share in teaching responsiblities. My middle schooler takes a science class taught by a leading renewable energy researcher, is in a band taught by three advanced degree holding directors, and takes writing classes from an acclaimed author. The annual expense for this high quality education is a whopping $500 per year plus the opportunity cost of my foregone career.
I really don’t understand the us verses them attitude between some homeschoolers and those who choose public school. Why can’t we appreciate parents are choosing the best education for their child? No two children are the same and what is best for one may not be best for another. I know families with children in public school, private school, and homeschool. They choose what is best for each child.
AJinCobb
February 8th, 2011
10:49 pm
@Fire Bad Teachers,
Well said about the needlessly adversarial attitudes (although I do wish you had a less inflammatory moniker).
Speaking for myself, I’m just a parent with a child at public school, and I’ve been riled by some of the anti-public-school rhetoric that crops up on this blog. After reading a lot of disdain and hostility towards public schools, which has probably caused me to unfairly stereotype anti-public-school parents, I feel irked when this same population now seems to want to cherry-pick activities and programs for their child, from that same school whose staff, curriculum and students they’ve roundly denigrated. In reality, I suppose the homeschoolers who express disdain and hostility towards public schools are likely not the same population as those who are wanting to take advantage of public school offerings!
Although I have no objection to responsible parents making whatever choices they consider best for their child, I remain concerned that this proposal has overtones of wanting to have one’s cake and eat it too, as somebody else wrote.
FBT
February 8th, 2011
11:45 pm
@AJinCobb-You are right. How about FBT?
I think the homeschooling parents who are anti-public school would most likely not allow their children to participate in public school activities. I know there are some public school families who would choose something else for their children if finances allowed.
How would this change if ALL parents had many options for educating their children?
AJinCobb
February 9th, 2011
7:18 am
@FBT,
Very nice
Options for all would be great, of course, but cost is likely a problem.
lisa
February 9th, 2011
7:21 am
FTE money is actually paid by taxpayers. I think students should be allowed to participate if they are held to the same standards. For example, no pass no play. It is easy for the school to determine who is passing because they have the grades on hand. For a non-attending student it would be difficult if not impossible to determine. This would increase paperwork for the activity sponsor.
Another issue is disciplinary action. Again, it would be almost impossible to enforce if the student does not attend the school.
Further, it is erroneous to state that a school activity does not receive any support from the school and county taxpayers. If the facility, grounds, water, electric is being used, support is received.
This is a good idea, but it sounds to me like more policies and paperwork.
Marcie
February 9th, 2011
10:35 am
AJinCobb – I think you have hit the nail on the head. It is a different group that is anti-school than those who seek the ability to interact with school kids thru after-school activities or even part-time enrollment. It could be that the “anti” group has had the most media play or the loudest mouths, but that does not mean that they represent all homeschoolers.
That said, given how badly our schools have done sometimes, I’m not surprised that there is a lot of “anti” out there.
It all just gives me pause to think how can we work together rather than how can I keep them out.
John
February 9th, 2011
10:52 am
Absolutely not. It is a school team. If the parent wants the child to be on the team, enroll the child in the school. It’s that simple. If the parent doesn’t think enough of the school to want their child to take classes there, then the parent forfeits the privilege for the child to play on the team. How can a coach possibly discipline a child who doesn’t go to school there.
Second bill opens public school clubs, teams to outside students | Get Schooled
February 9th, 2011
12:05 pm
[...] I have read all the posts on the first blog on this issue, and understand the desire of homeschooling and private school parents to take advantage of the clubs and activities at their local public schools. I remain concerned about the burden on the public schools to sort out this law, if it is passed. [...]
Excellence
February 9th, 2011
2:51 pm
The owner of a $200,000.00 home in Cobb County pays about $2000 a year in property taxes. Approx. 60% goes to education. So most folks are getting a really good deal on education. Find a private that will educate your child for about $1500 a yr. Got more than one child in school? Your taxes do not change:)
Online Teacher
February 9th, 2011
3:54 pm
@Maureen: You asked about public school options open to homeschool students in Georgia that allow students to participate in some of the activities without actually enrolling. The Georgia Virtual School allows homeschool school students to enroll. There is a limit to the number of state-funded spots available to them and public school students have first crack at registration. As a virtual school teacher, I don’t have a problem with that. These families pay taxes in Georgia, so they should not be excluded from a state program.
Most of the comments here have focused on homeschool students, but what about virtual school students? Gwinnett has just now allowed students to take their full course load online through their online campus. Would you exclude those students from participating in the athletic programs at their local attendance zone?
I’d love to see the AJC highlight some of the success of GAVS.
CharterStarter
February 9th, 2011
11:02 pm
What a great discussion! I support this bill. I also observe that for all the handwringing about the nonexistent accountability of homeschool students, those very same students are seen as prize recruits by colleges and universities because of their work ethic, self-discipline and academic abilities. Perhaps accountability is not all it’s cracked up to be.
Also, if we’re serious about money following students and providing choice, extracurricular activities should be part of that choice discussion. I don’t see public schools being harmed by this bill. I see all public school students (which includes homeschool and charter school students – all of whom are ALSO public school students by law) benefiting equally.
Maureen Downey
February 9th, 2011
11:03 pm
@CharterStarter, ScienceTeacher asked if you were going to the Rhee meeting tomorrow with Michell Rhee. Are you?
Maureen
Value in letting non students join public school teams, clubs? | Get Schooled
February 13th, 2011
8:10 am
[...] SB 55 is one of two bills — SB 34 is the other – that open public school after-school extracurriculars to children who don’t attend the school. However, I wasn’t clear which kids each of these similar bills was representing. (See earlier blogs for background. This one is about 55. This one is about 34.) [...]
krissy
July 19th, 2012
8:50 pm
I’m hearing a lot of , “can’t have your cake and eat it too,” “If I could include my kids in what I wanted and still HS them, I would, but I agree it’s wrong.” etc…
It honestly sounds like jealousy for the homeschooler more than any REAL reason to exclude them. I mean, we all pay taxes.
Taxes, by the way, which I completely 100% support and agree with. Do I wish I could get tax credit toward my kids curriculum and school needs??? shoot yeah, but I still don’t believe in withdrawing all taxes from the PS just because my kids don’t go. I mean, it’s part of living in this society just like paying for road care (even if I don’t drive a car)…
But now, all of you that are opposed to this are saying… “Ok, you home-schoolers… pay us your tax money and then there’s the door… go away!”