Should non students be able to join school clubs, teams?
Many school clubs depend on fund raising rather than taxes. (AJC file)
Take a look at Senate Bill 55 and Senate Bill 34, both of which require public schools to allow children who are not enrolled to participate in extracurricular activities.
I understand the impetus and the impulse, but at some point, don’t schools have the right to ask: How much more can we do?
Schools can barely meet the needs of their own students, and now Sen. Chip Rogers and the Georgia Senate want them to open their doors to non students?
These bills would mandate access to all after-school clubs, sports and programs to students outside of the school. (Neither bill speaks to private school students yet, but that is probably soon to come.)
Consider that many after-school activities are financed by parent fund-raising and staffed by the parents themselves. Some after-school clubs depend on teacher volunteers. There is little taxpayer money going into most after-school activities.
How can the Senate mandate that these volunteer parents and teachers accept kids from outside the school community?
It is one thing to allow homeschoolers or students from other schools to come into programs that are underwritten by fees, as long as there’s room. But these bills speak to all extracurriculars, many of which are purely powered by volunteers.
SB 34 states: A public school shall allow any nonenrolled student to participate in any extracurricular activity offered or conducted by such public school outside of regular school hours in the same manner as any student currently enrolled at such public school. ‘Nonenrolled student’ means a student enrolled in a charter school or a virtual school
who resides within the attendance zone of a public school but who is not enrolled in such school.
SB 55 just dropped this afternoon and is not yet posted on the state web site. It also deals with extracurriculars, but addresses homeschoolers rather than students from charters or virtual schools.
Beyond the financial implications, these bills raise safety and logistical concerns. An influx of kids from outside the building into clubs, sports or after-school jazz bands or strings groups requires someone to manage both arrival and departure and the communications. My own twins learn most updates on their club meetings and sports via the school announcements.
I am sure that homeschooling parents will argue that they are paying taxes and thus should be able to treat public school offerings as a buffet line, picking the activities that suit their kids. In some cases, that may be a good idea. For example, there’s a growing trend of homeschooled students attending one or two courses a day at their local schools. I understand and endorse that concept because tax dollars are paying for those courses.
But very little tax money goes into most after-school program. It takes silent auctions, bake sales and wrapping paper sales to support many of them.
Should the Senate be able to mandate that schools open all their extracurricular activities to non students?
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog.
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136 comments Add your comment
Monica
February 7th, 2011
5:58 pm
On this subject — I homeschooled exclusively for 8 years before enrolling my daughter in a Gwinnett high school last year. For 8 years about 65% of my property taxes went to GCPS that I didn’t have any benefits from — I paid for all books and standardized testing and got paid nothing for any of it. I’m not sure I would have put my kids in school activities anyway, but it would be nice to have the choice, or to get that 8 years of money back. That money would have paid for my school books and testing supplies.
Kawla
February 7th, 2011
6:02 pm
I homeschool and have no interest in my child attending sports or clubs at her home school for 2 reasons: 1) I don’t really think she would really enjoy a club where everyone else but her already knew each other and spent lots of time together 2) There are a multitude of homeschool clubs, classes and co-ops that are available to us, where her peers are also homeschooled so everyone is on equal footing socially, so to speak. (and we take advantage of many of these! )
However, I would support inclusion for those who wanted it, and think you guys are really underestimating homeschool parents in the areas of fundraising and volunteering. Remember that we have to be involved and present for ALL areas of our kids education and the myriad of outside homeschool opportunities available ARE available because of us, the parents who run them. We are USED to fundraising, organizing, co-teaching and just being involved, in general!!
So I really don’t think doing so at the local school would be a problem for most homeschool parents….
Also, as others stated, I pay taxes but my child does not use any of that $ by attending public school…so we are enlarging the community resource pot but choosing in addition to use our individual resources to educate our child, instead of her using public resources. More for the other kids that way – so we are actually doing yall a favor!
tim
February 7th, 2011
6:05 pm
ANYTHING that has Chip Rogers named attached to it HAS to be a BAD IDEA.
EastCobb parent
February 7th, 2011
6:11 pm
GHSA needs to move into this century. Many states allow home schooled children to attend sports at the school they are zoned for. In Tim Tebow’s case not only did he play, when he wanted a more competitive team he moved. The home school sports that I know of are all run by parent volunteers. So I think the thought that the parents would not contribute time and money is inaccurate. I would think that the individual that involved with their child’s education would be just as involved with an extra curricular activity. To the blogger that mentioned Christians would want a prayer before everything, perhaps, but not everyone that elects to home school does so because of religious beliefs. I’ve know parents that did so because their child was in a car accident, under going treatments for cancer etc. It was easier to navigate school and the numerous Dr. appts by home schooling the child. For those students attending virtual and charter schools; the state does not fund those students the same making it difficult to offer some of the clubs and sports options. The school could make it mandatory that the children have an adult stay during the program, volunteer a certain amount of time. I know for HS sports such as Track and XC, parents pay a nice fee to cover uniforms and such and then write a hefty check to the booster club. I would expect the parents of any child participating to do the same. The earlier blogger that mentioned field trips and such is accurate. I often found I could take my child to the destination much cheaper myself, but we needed to cover the costs of those that didn’t pay. And sometimes those parents were in the McMansions. So whether you volunteer, pay to the foundation, booster etc. there are the 20% that do 80%.
I also think the time is quickly approaching when we must decide what is the function of the school to educate or enrich? Maybe we should all pay for education beyond 10th grade. Before all the art and music lovers crucify me, I understand they are important, I’m just not sure that we continue to expect the public school to address every need and desire.
Tony
February 7th, 2011
6:13 pm
A couple of misconceptions about FTE and funding have crept into the discussions.
First, state funding through QBE and FTE does include fine arts. Students who attend classes during the day are counted for all state funded courses. This includes band, chorus, drama, art and other fine arts classes.
Second, state funding does not pay for athletics and extracurricular clubs. Local funding from property taxes allows school boards to provide these opportunities. School based fundraising accounts for much of the money needed to operate athletics, too. I think any of the homeschooled families that wanted to participate would be more than happy to help with those efforts.
This bill would present some challenges to schools. Verification of residence is one. It would be easy for schools to get in trouble with GHSA if another school wanted to contest the residency status of participants. Trouble could also occur over recruiting concerns.
Techmom
February 7th, 2011
6:15 pm
@CDC I was a cheerleader in HS and most of the time, I couldn’t tell you who was a football player or who just scored for that matter. Most of the time the cheerleaders are trying to get the crowd fired up to cheer for the players and aren’t even looking at the field (I honestly didn’t have a clue about the rules for football until my son started playing as a little guy).
Oh and the big HS I attended was NOT in the metro area, actually it was one of the south GA football power houses. AND I was so bored with HS classes that by the time I was a senior, I was going to college full time and ONLY came to school to particpate in extra-curriculars.
Only Fair
February 7th, 2011
6:16 pm
I good with it if we change the wording to read “all schools public or private must let non-enrolled students attend”.
BehindEnemyLines
February 7th, 2011
6:21 pm
After how raped, robbed, and pillaged taxpayers have been by the schools for years — regardless of whether they’ve utilized those “services” — whining like this would comical if it didn’t border so close to insulting. Given my druthers however, I’d happily opt out of throwing any more money down the increasingly dry hole of public “education”, but then the whining would be a threat to our hearing.
Techmom
February 7th, 2011
6:25 pm
@Only Fair- I’d be ok with that if private schools received my tax dollars. But since they don’t, how exactly is that fair?
justin
February 7th, 2011
6:29 pm
ALL extracurricular activities should become community-based activities – like those soccer/football/baseball leagues for younger kids. Those leagues should be able to lease public school facilities for free or for the actual cost of maintaining the facility. Parents of children who want to participate should be made to pay – in some ways, including payment in kind.
Glad I Am Retired Teacher
February 7th, 2011
6:30 pm
@catlady. I was a Head Coach of a major sport for over 30 years in Ga, BUT I have to agree with you on this for a variety of reasons. This will NEVER happen in Ga for one reason—FOOTBALL (and I love the game). The politicos in Ga would let all the other sports go club (as in Europe), but not the MOST important thing in Ga high schools. The state sen. and reps in Ga would never admit this, but if you simply honestly evaluate what they value the most, you will see it is not academics. They give lip service to this but do not back it up with their votes. Selah.
Former Middle School Teacher
February 7th, 2011
6:33 pm
Another non-issue to distract us while they continue to eliminate all funding for public education. I don’t really care if people want to home school (I am glad all your children are so well adjusted, the “home-schooler’s” I’ve taught were not) but why would you want your darlings corrupted anyway.
flipper
February 7th, 2011
6:33 pm
Kst… your attitude would be precisely why your kid would get the least possible role in the club I’m involved with…. as would you. No, we have far better ideas than wrapping paper for fundraising. Of course, I wouldn’t share them with you since you would surely find them lacking in creativity since they only raised $6000.
You child’s scores are impressive. Congratulations. I’m sure that the entire 650 was earned thanks to the one year you homeschooled.
I have a son at GA tech who scored 675 verbal, 680 essay and 740 math.
Find your own private source for activities. There are tons out there.
intownparent
February 7th, 2011
6:40 pm
We have two home schoolers (twins) who started in my son’s class in middle school this year. They are both in remedial classes, (no disabilities), but their parents are quite well educated. I don’t get it. My son says that they are both also very, very weird.
I guess if these parents want to get their kids into sports and school clubs they’ll need to home school again because the kids’ grades are two low for clubs and sports so long as they are in our school system. They are both failing math.
There’s the ticket… Little Johnny’s failing out of school but wants to play football. Pull him to “home school.” Then he can lay around playing XBox all day, and get back on the football team.
Oh! This is brilliant legislation. One of the sponsors must have some caveman son who can’t pass at the local high school and got kicked of the football team.
oppose HB 109
February 7th, 2011
6:43 pm
Please read Maureen’s blog post before this one. The lawmakers want to silence the teacher this legislative session. They do not want to hear from you at all on your position on proposed laws like the home school piece. More importantly, they do not want teachers to fill up their in-boxes and voice mail accounts over the changes to our pay scale that are on the way. You will see and hear after the Michelle Rhee luncheon.
Georgetown
February 7th, 2011
6:50 pm
I think it is time to face that times have changed and we have the technology and resources to improve education IF we choose to embrace it. Listen folks, the same old same old isn’t working and hasn’t worked for a long time. I had virtual classes for my masters program and I liked it. I did my classes at my own pace and didn’t have to worry about other students or their behavior problems in the process (a room full of other people can be distracting especially when the pace of learning is different). Virtual classes work well for many types of students as the ones who are quicker can get through the material faster and further their education past the curriculum without sitting around bored all day and the students who need more time can have that time to really learn without the pressures of being embarrassed in front of classmates etc. We had to go to campus once a week for tests etc, but that was easy enough to do.
If virtual school had been available when I was in school I would have done it for multiple reasons. In math and science I am faster than most and it was hard to sit through those classes. Also, I was picked on in Junior High so it would have made my life a lot easier not to be tortured on a daily basis (Character building? Yes, but nobody needs that much character). I think some people may not realize that for many kids school can be torture and I know it is even worse now than in my day. Just because regular school works for your kids doesn’t mean it is a good fit for everyone. In high school I did debate, which was a class, but my parents would have made sure I had transportation to my activities and I would have just attended the class and club. And they would have paid and participated as much if not more than the “regular kids” parents.
These are good options for improving education and we should try to get ahead and not do things one way only because it’s our comfort zone. It seems like people who are against this are against change of any kind. As for liability etc, there is as much of a chance that a “regular kid” will sue as there is for someone doing alternate education.
Lynn43
February 7th, 2011
7:46 pm
East Cobb Parent, There are some of us with careers in the arts that got our “beginnings” in public school. These courses and the ability to develop these talents and interests are not “fluff” to students who plan to make these areas their life’s work. They are just as important to students with artistic talents as science and math are to students with talents in these areas. It takes people in all areas to make a great place to live, and our schools need to do OUR part to see that all talents are addressed. Don’t get me started. By the way, I have the sung the National Anthem at a televised professional sporting event, and I didn’t forget the words.
hut one, hut two...
February 7th, 2011
7:47 pm
If this passes it’ll be a bonanza for high school athletic coaches. They’ll be able to recruit any kid from the “attendance zone”. As someone previosly pointed out that’s how Tim Tebow was discovered.
Coach D
February 7th, 2011
8:05 pm
Although I believe Chip is well intentioned in his bill, I wish he had asked a few coaches and/or principals. Students can have consequences for their behavior on the field but if a homeschooler does not follow the rules or act out he just quits. It is not a level playing field and would cause a huge problem.
sorry, as much as I would like to have the next NFL star who is homeschooled just not worth it for the whole student body.
Does Chip Rogers homeschool his children?????
northern neighbor
February 7th, 2011
8:07 pm
Public school classes are geared toward Georgia Performance Standards. Students are also tested against these standards.
How is the performance of non-public schools students evaluated?
How will schools determine if a student is academically eligible for extra-curricular activities.
I am all in favor of home-schooling, though all my children attended public school. However, when families make decisions, they must understand the trade-offs and the consequences, and be willing to accept them. I don’t like them changing the rules to their benefit.
I’m not sure why a family would choose their own educational methods, but then willingly submit to public school administration in extra curricular activities.
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February 7th, 2011
8:14 pm
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Marcie
February 7th, 2011
8:14 pm
Certainly homeschoolers should have the right to participate in our schools – the schools are for the children in our community! I think we should wonder at the defensiveness of those of us who work in schools who would withhold a service from any child who could benefit. There could be equitable ways to work out the financial commitment; from what I’ve seen of homeschoolers, the parents would probably be the leaders in fund raising and participation as volunteers. They don’t seem apt to drop their kids and not be involved as some of the parents we have. Very funny to me that people will complain about homeschoolers as isolationist (a stereotype I’ve not seen born out) and then advocate *we* keep separate from *them.* What is so threatening? People are very quick to circle the wagons and keep people out. The homeschooling families I know would be nice additions to the clubs I sponsor, tho’ frankly they are so busy, I don’t think that opening it to homeschoolers would result in many takers.
I’m not scared of ‘em – we can work out the details! I say let’s have our schools be a real source of community — welcoming and inclusive of children whose families are anxious for them to participate.
Just Me, the Teacher
February 7th, 2011
8:14 pm
Oh, hell, no! Public schools take any student into their midst who is qualified to attend their schools. That is responsibility enough on a good day! Why should we have to take care of the ones who don’t attend our schools when we are already over-committed to those who have every right to our attention? No. I just don’t see it.l
Marcie
February 7th, 2011
8:26 pm
Just wanted to say from the person who thought homeschoolers might mock the Muslims in schools — two of the families I know who homeschool are moderate muslims! I think you have “bought” the image “sold” that homeschoolers are monolithically Christian fundamentalists. True, while they had a large mouthpiece in the gov’t there for a while (Moral Majority, Jerry Falwell, etc.), homeschooling among them did grow. But the homeschoolers I know best are NOT evangelical Christians. A number of the families volunteer in various orgs I’m in and at a museum I frequent, and they are diverse — religiously, politically, and so on.
Again, I think this is another example of people going straight into “us vs. them” mode. I am sorry to think that this attitude springs from those who have children in school or are teaching in school. Not very tolerant of *us* while *we* accuse *them* of possibly not being tolerant. I think we have a little more work to do…
And why should we take care of ones who don’t attend our schools? Because serving the community’s children is our mandate. Without that, we don’t have a mission; without the mission, we don’t even have jobs.
SSTeacher
February 7th, 2011
8:27 pm
This even tells you the point of the bill.
To allow Charter School students the ability to intrude public schools who offer more than the Charter will want to handle. The reason many kids and their parents don’t send their kids to private/charter/or home school is the “I wanna play sports” whine.
Now parents can have their cake and eat it too…at the expense of the children and families who are not giving up on the public education system that is better equipped to teach to the whole child, rather than segregate and piece-meal a child’s life.
grady parent
February 7th, 2011
8:47 pm
Folks, remember that these families do pay into the system with the local school portion on their property taxes. This is significant money considering no additional teachers or staff are hired. That is a lot of money.
Marcie
February 7th, 2011
8:51 pm
SSTeacher, I’ve been sad to see students leave our school because we were NOT equipped to teach the whole child. I think that parents doing what works for their child should be applauded. I don’t think they’ve given up on education, I think they have taken personal responsibility for it. If we can get some of these parents and children back in the schools for an extracurricular or sport, then we are at least providing some level of service to them. Again, I find it ironic that you accuse a homeschooling parent of segregating a child’s life but resent their efforts to integrate them into the school in any way. I’m so puzzled about this thought. Are we against them because they make themselves separate, or are we against them because they want to be with us?
grady parent
February 7th, 2011
8:58 pm
What about 8th graders being allowed to play JV sports at the matriculating high school, taking away slots from Fresh and Sophs that actually attend the school?
Druid Hills, Decatur High and others do this.
The majority of the Decatur High School JV soccer team is made up of Renfroe 8th graders. JV parents are not happy.
EastCobb parent
February 7th, 2011
9:04 pm
There is a simple reason that many would like for their children to be involved in high school sports and clubs – scholarships. Of course there are other reasons as well. Often the local school is much closer than any of the smaller organizations for clubs, sports etc. Schools today deal with the task of verifying all are in their attendance zone so I don’t see that it would be more difficult to do so with charter/virtual/home schooled students.
@Lynn43, there are wonderful art and music programs. Still we simply cannot afford to provide everything to every child. You want to keep the arts, another group insists that we cannot do without nurses – schools have multiple guidance and assistant principals, everyone wants bus service even if they are ten blocks away. At some point we’ve got to think outside the age old box. What would you have cut or do you want education to represent 75% of the budget in order to fund everyone’s desires? I never called the arts fluff and I don’t feel they are.
My suggestion is perhaps it is time to decide what is truly needed to educate the child? Is it learning to read, write, math to a consumer level? Is it learning to be a global citizen? Is is potty-training the child with an EIP that requests such? Is it the appreciation of the arts? Sports? We cannot afford all so something at some point has to go.
ScienceTeacher671
February 7th, 2011
9:51 pm
I think the rec dept ought to handle sports, and the schools ought to handle academics. Period.
Not that it’s going to happen in Georgia.
Kawla
February 7th, 2011
10:48 pm
You know, I read this blog almost daily, and all I ever read about is how terrible the GA schools are and how awful it is that parents are so un-involved in their kids lives, and how the schools are failing because of this…but let homeschoolers be mentioned, who are by definition involved parents, and who are trying to make sure they have a say in the education their kids receive, and the hate springs forth! I don’t get it – homeschooling is not a personal insult to those that don’t choose to do so, or to the teachers in public schools. It is a personal choice each family makes, often entailing a large sacrifice on the part of that family, and the reasons they might choose to homeschool are as varied as the families that do so. Homeschoolers are trying to be part of the education solution!
In all honestly, this blog and all the depressing stories I read in the comments contributed to my decision to homeschool!
Fire Bad Teachers
February 7th, 2011
11:52 pm
My children who learn at home are involved in 4-H, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, band, and Duke TIP. I am involved in all the programs with the exception of Duke TIP. I wanted my children to have these experiences and I sought them out or started the groups for my children and other homeschooled children. I would like to add that the other parents are very involved in the groups as well.
Catherine
February 8th, 2011
12:13 am
I think it would be interesting to hear comments from public school kids who are already on the teams, or trying out for the teams/clubs. How do they feel about homeschoolees coming in? Whatever happened to the guy who would have been the QB had Tim Tebow not been allowed to play on the public school team? Doesn’t that kid feel a little bit cheated by some “outsider” coming in to steal the show?
Jen
February 8th, 2011
12:15 am
1) My kids are in private school.
2) I pay for them to attend private school because I believe it’s easier for them to learn in a disciplined environment. (During the time I spent teaching, the public schools didn’t facilitate that type of environment–several factors involved, few of which had to do with the teachers & administrators themselves.)
3) I would prefer for my children to attend school in their local district. I believe it’s important for them to socialize with children from a broader mix of socio-economic & racial groups than make up their current school population. I will not, however, sacrifice the learning environment to meet their social needs.
4) Allowing children who live in the school district to participate in the extra-curricular activities is not only fair, but it builds a sense of community. It shouldn’t be an us vs. them mentality. We all live here. Our children play together in the neighborhood. Why can’t they play together in marching band?
5) Arguments re: funding are ridiculous. I know quite a few other parents whose children are enrolled in private school, charter schools, & home/virtual schools. When it’s required, they tend to either a) be hyper-involved in fundraising & volunteer efforts or b) opt to buy their way out of fund-raising & volunteer time. I can’t imagine they’d suddenly stop that behavior, especially if they understood that there’s a parental “cost” to extra-curricular activities. It’s like any bureaucracy…you only have to create the forms & figure out the rules once; after that, it’s maintenance.
EC Mom
February 8th, 2011
1:02 am
@Kawla…you are right, public school parents should not be offended that some choose other options. On the other hand, some homeschoolers and private schoolers comment about wanting to protect their kids from the monsters who attend public schools. It goes both ways.
I really don’t have a problem with this if the kids participating live in the school district. I can see how it could create some problems and be an added burden to teachers who are already being asked to do more for less, though. I also think parents or teachers who are volunteering their time running an after school activity should have some discretion about whether they can take on non-enrolled students. It really depends on just how many kids are being added to the activities, I suppose.
With regard to sports, yes, of course there will be whining when someone’s child loses a starting position to a homeschooled child. But that homeschooled child could be a student at that particular school, earning the starting position. I believe in Tim Tebow’s case he and his mother actually moved to an apartment in the district where he played, but still they had a right to do so (lying about where you live is very different). People choose to live somewhere for the school district all the time.
My children attend one of the best performing elementary schools in Cobb Cty. We have a small percentage of students who transferred in using the school choice bill that passed a couple of years ago. The parents of these kids who I know personally are fairly involved. They volunteer time and contribute financially to PTA and the foundation. There are some in district parents who do much less. I would guess that most homeschool parents willing to get their children to extra curricular activities will contribute their time and money in a fair way.
Cobb History Teacher
February 8th, 2011
5:47 am
Gee Chip what’s your occupation? Let me throw an extra 100 or so clients at you and meanwhile I’ll inform you your salary is being cut….again? If you want to be involved in the activities of a public school then go to public school. Enough of the schools aren’t good enough for my children, but I want to play on your team and be part of your club. It should be all or nothing.
Elizabeth
February 8th, 2011
6:39 am
The liability and discipline issues alone would be a nightmare. I sponsor Beta club, which is for academically achieivng students. Am I supposed to allow those whose grades I cannot check to join? And take these kids on service field trips or to 6 Flags? I don’t think so. I will no longer sponsor a club if this happens.
As for taxes– I agree with the one who said that you don’t get to pick and choose which part of your taxes you agree/disagree with.
Why pay school taxes when you don’t have kids? Would you rather pay increased welfare/unemployment or pay school taxes? I have NO ONE in my family in the military or in prison. Should I be allowed to stop paying that portion of my taxes?
If you want to particfipate in school sponsored activities, come to public school and submit to our authority. If you don’t, then find your own activities for you kids to do, just as you found your alternative source for “educating” your kids.
Hey Teacher
February 8th, 2011
7:37 am
I’m with Elizabeth. It’s hard enough to find teachers to take clubs these days (there’s NO extra pay for most of it) without having the added burden of students that don’t go to the school. IF they funded clubs and activities with huge stipends, then the “we pay taxes and should be able to participate ” argument would apply, but with the exception of a few sports (football et al), the other activities are largely voluntary.
Fire Bad Teachers
February 8th, 2011
8:02 am
When I taught, I was expected to operate a club with no additional compensation. I understood this before I signed my contract.
Charter and virtual school students have grades and take the CRCT. One could question the validity of grades in some traditional schools. Why do HOPE scholarship recipients need remedial college courses if this isn’t the case?
@Elizabeth-” come to public school and submit to our authority”
Wow, I’m speechless.
East Cobb Parent
February 8th, 2011
8:24 am
To the poster asking how the would be quarterback felt regarding Tim Tebow taking his spot. I know of similar incidents and it was a team and no one voiced that they felt slightly. The coach did a wonderful job; the coach did not recruit someone outside the attendance zone. As for sports, this type of thing happens regularly hence GHSA’s rules to attempt for it not to happen. Coaches encourage, locate apartments etc for possible upcoming football stars.
IF GA ever follows Texas’ lead and the money follows the child, many of you may think differently about the club/sports. I’ve seen more hate for this than other blogs. If you want that community feeling seems to me you would open up and allow this. Discipline nightmare, I see it each time I walk into a public school and the teachers state how their hands are tied; they can do nothing about it. So either you can or you can’t but it can’t be both ways.
RJ
February 8th, 2011
8:35 am
“Before all the art and music lovers crucify me, I understand they are important, I’m just not sure that we continue to expect the public school to address every need and desire.”
So your belief is that the arts are more of a “desire” than a “need” for children. All they “need” is reading, writing and arithmetic, right?
The benefits of an arts education has been PROVEN to increase skills in math, reading and critical thinking. Students involved in the arts more motivated and confident. I’ll say now like I’ve said 100 times before, I’ve never done a geometric proof outside of class. I’ve never dissected a frog or mixed chemicals. However, I understand the benefits of these courses. They help me to become better at problem-solving and improve critical thinking skills.
As for the question at hand, I really don’t see a problem with it. Unless it’s a community where there are a great number of students being homeschooled, it really won’t add that many students to the after school activities.
Atlanta Mom
February 8th, 2011
8:37 am
Of course as a charter school parent, I applaud this idea! The parents of children who are homeschooled or attend charter or virtual high schools, all pay local and state taxes. They are just as willing and able to volunteer as any other parent in a traditional school. I’m surprised Maureen jumped to the conclusion that they wouldn’t man the gate at a sporting event or contribute to the bake sale.
Maureen Downey
February 8th, 2011
8:59 am
@Atlanta Mom, I am not suggesting they would not do that. But much of the activity is embedded in the school day. Beta Club sells snacks during lunch. Another club sells school supplies to raise money. I have no doubt that the parents who are motivated to sign their kids up for clubs and sports at another school would be go-getters. But that does not diminish the extra work put on the parent volunteers and teachers who run these clubs. I think there would be logistical challenges to kids outside the building being included in after-school based programs. I think one major challenge would be communications as I have found that my kids get the info on their after-school programs at school. I get very few e-mails alerting me to changes in practice times or places or canceled meetings. (That is another issue as I do wish more communications would come to parents via e-mail.)
Maureen
Random Thought
February 8th, 2011
9:42 am
@Fire Bad Teachers
““@Elizabeth-” come to public school and submit to our authority”
Wow, I’m speechless.”"
Why are you speechless? If a public school student misbehaves while participating in the public school activity/club that student can be suspended or banned from that activity due to behavior. If the incident is serious enough, the public school student can also be suspended from school. However, if a non-student misbehaves while participating in the public school activity/club and is suspended or banned from that activity due to bad behavior, the non-student parent can uses that law to prevent their child from being suspended or banned from an activity. Club activities are after school hours. Who is responsible for the non-student if he/she misbehaves?
Scenario: A non-student gets a late drop-off at the school to attend a club meeting. On the stairs she takes a misstep, falls and sprains her ankle. No one knows she is coming because she does not attend the school, neither students nor faculty is able to say that they saw her that day to even go search for her. No one finds her until the end of the club meeting. Who is responsible for the non-student injuries while on the public school campus?
The main issue is liability. Who is responsible for the non-student when incidents happen on school grounds?
AJinCobb
February 8th, 2011
9:46 am
Ultimately, this is about people wanting to cherry-pick services provided by the public schools. Public schools have a very challenging mandate already, given that they have to serve all children enrolled from their attendance zone, with limited budget and a lot of government regulations to satisfy. Inevitably, given all the laws and expectations placed on them, and the fact that they are dealing with children, not adults, they are quite regimented communities. Elizabeth wrote “come to public school and submit to our authority” and some seem to have found this statement obnoxious, but in truth it’s simply realistic, not sugar-coated.
Private and home schooling parents have decided for reasons of their own that the public school environment is not what they want for their child. They are completely free to make that choice, of course. However, the fact that they are taxpayers doesn’t, in my opinion, entitle them to cherry-pick services from the public schools, any more than childless individuals are entitled to, say, go borrow books from the school library since they’re paying school taxes. Taxes just don’t work that way.
I don’t see any more reason why a home-school child should be entitled to join their local school sports team or after-school club than that they should be entitled to drop by for Chemistry class (because the school has a nicely equipped lab and a good teacher, and their home-schooling mom isn’t too strong on Chemistry). In fact, I’m suspicious that if the Rogers crowd get their way, the next step will be access to whatever classes a home-school parent deems suitable for their child. We all know what these people want, really – the dissolution of the public school system. I’m strongly opposed to that, and I think that where public school services are concerned, you’re either in or you’re out. No picking and choosing!
Maureen Downey
February 8th, 2011
10:11 am
@AJinCobb, I did an interview a while back with a college professor who homeschooled her child for a year in Virginia. There, kids can go to school for only a few courses, blending homeschooling with traditional school. I suspect that we will see that movement here, although I am not sure it is impossible now. Anyone know of any rule that would prevent a system from allowing homeschooled kids to come in for math or Spanish I?
Maureen
Batgirl
February 8th, 2011
10:31 am
I think that legally homeschooled kids have a right to participate in public school activities even though it kind of irks me. There are already kids who don’t attend public schools who receive physical/occupational/speech therapy services. This is probably a bigger drain on funding than participation in extracurricular activities. I know that for awhile we didn’t have enough speech therapists for our own students, but we had some homeschoolers who demanded services for their children. After all, they pay their taxes.
Principal
February 8th, 2011
10:40 am
This is a real concern as far as supervision and liability. Last year we had homeschooled students who live in our school district wanting to attend the 8th grade end of year dance. We also had students who attend private school but live in our district wanting to participate in sports or activities that their private school doesn’t offer. This is just one more burden and reponsibility the public schools shouldn’t have to bear
AJinCobb
February 8th, 2011
12:27 pm
Responding to Maureen’s comment, I can see the appeal of blending homeschooling and traditional school, but it seems like it could be an administrative nightmare. Would homeschoolers get more ability to select their teachers than full-time enrolled students? I imagine a scenario in which Samantha Student doesn’t like Language Arts teacher Ms Mean. If she gets assigned Ms Mean, maybe Sam’s parents would just declare her a homeschooler and pull her out for homeschooling in that course only. That sort of thing might be attractive to families, but how would the unlucky school administration cope?
At my child’s Cobb County high school, students are not allowed to leave the building at any time during the school day, except by specific permission arranged via a note from a parent. I can’t imagine how this would play with partially-homeschooled students streaming on and off campus between classes. If a partially-homeschooled student comes in for two classes with a free period in between, I suppose they could take themselves to lunch off campus in between classes, if their parent permitted, although a regular full-time enrolled student could not.
East Cobb Parent
February 8th, 2011
12:34 pm
Maureen,
I had not heard that any of the states allowed the blended approach you described. I would be curious as to the outcome.
@RJ – I listed several items as desires, not just the arts. I took the stance from inside the box, meaning school provides the three R’s, then the stance that at what point do we say the school can’t be everything so how do you decide. To someone each item is important and they will cite the phrase “research proves”.