DeKalb: Protecting teachers by outsourcing other jobs?

d

December 30th, 2010
11:00 pm

Maureen,
I see the interactions every day between our custodians and students – these people are educators just the same. Now, the question I have is did we really need to replace Gloria Talley? Do we need to spend who knows how much money on SchoolNet to do benchmarks that students aren’t taking seriously? Do we really need to have 25% of our payroll going to administrative functions at Mountain Industrial? Can’t the instructional coach and ICE coach be better off in a classroom rather than making us jump through hoops just to do our job? How many people do we need with the word “superintendent” in his or her job title? Let’s fix that bloat first and then we’ll look at what positions at the school house are unnecessary.

Swamp_rat

December 30th, 2010
11:03 pm

Outsource the teachers as well. Why should we give them large salaries and pensions ? Make them contractors. Let the teachers bargain for raises with the third party. We do not need teachers unions.
Teachers unions will love me. You the citizen are paying for ther ineptness. Simplifies the entire process of determines who to keep and who to reject each school year or what ever.

Toto: speakin' the truth to power

December 30th, 2010
11:04 pm

Why pick on the lowest wage earners whose job loss might put them on the street? An across the board cut for ALL state government workers and elected officials is the only moral thing to do. Eliminate all but ITBS testing. Encourage home schooling and private schooling for those with means. This will free up seats and money for the truly needy. The only long -term solution is to repeal the compulsory school attendance law and start over with private and home schools. No state or Federal taxes should be used to educate our children. It should be funded solely by the parents and benevolent 501c3 societies. This is the only way to release our schools from the clutches of centralized corruption. Georgia has had compulsory school attendance laws in effect since 1912! There has always been a strata of society that defies being educated and our state and national debt has increased exponentially. This is what happens when parents turn over their God-given responsibilities to others.

ScienceTeacher671

December 30th, 2010
11:15 pm

I’m not in Dekalb, but in our system, one unnecessary central office position could pay for 4-5 custodial jobs. FGS, some departments at the central office have 2-4 secretaries!

My spouse works in private industry. When the departmental secretary retired, they were told they could not replace her: “You all have voice mail. You all have computers with word processors. You do not need a secretary.”

Why does one department at the school board need multiple secretaries? Why do departments need superintendents, deputy superintendents, and assistant superintendents?

Leave the custodians and maintenance workers alone! If Dekalb is like our county, they are barely making a living wage as it is!

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December 30th, 2010
11:20 pm

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oldtimer

December 30th, 2010
11:22 pm

I have been in a system where many positions outsourced….Far superior..complaints = eleminations….

TW

December 30th, 2010
11:24 pm

GA really ought drop the facade that it cares at all about educating it’s kids.

Anne

December 30th, 2010
11:36 pm

Great idea. Let’s let 400 more teacher positions go and keep the custodians. Maybe they can teach our children. This conversation is ridiculous. If we can reduce money we spend on custodians or MIS or any other non-teaching group, I say let’s do it. Move on. We need teachers more than we need any other employee in the county. Getting rid of any more teachers will finally make us a NON-educational system.

Harold

December 30th, 2010
11:36 pm

Ms. Tyson said she was going to do this last spring. Did you think she would forget about it and just get rid of more teacher positions and pack even more kids into the classrooms. Do we want kids sitting on the floors so custodians can have their jobs? Thank you Ms. Tyson for making some hard decisions in favor of students.

DeKalb Teacher

December 30th, 2010
11:37 pm

Children are more vulnerable than custodians. Custodians need to be outsourced if possible. DCSS is an educational institution – not a jobs program. However, the Central Office needs to be rightsized, salaries of non-teaching employees need to be cut (DO NOT cut teachers salaries or we will not be competitive with other metro systems), non-teaching high paying jobs like the Parent Centers ($4,000,000), 90 Instructional Coaches ($9,000,000), ineffectual learning programs like America’s Choice (($8,000,000) need to be cut as well.

Henry County Mom

December 30th, 2010
11:42 pm

Undo the super’s $75K raise.

Dekalbite

December 30th, 2010
11:43 pm

You need to save your compassion for our students who are getting shortchanged on their education. They only get one shot at an education. Where is your compassion as these kids are packed into classrooms with 33 other students? You do realize that many of them are in classrooms where they have no more than 2 feet to move in any direction. I don’t have any skin in this game. But packing students into classrooms where they can’t move and can’t get any help seems pretty callous to me. Kids are the most vulnerable members of our society. Who is their advocate?

The classroom (teachers and students) have given enough blood. Something has to give or we will not have anyone wanting to teach our kids. Where was the outcry when Lewis cut 275 teaching positions last year and Tyson cut 100 teaching positions for this year? Students come before adults. I’m sorry for the people who will lose their jobs, but I’m sorrier for the students who are are losing their opportunity for a good education.

I think Ms. Tyson will be cutting many non-teaching positions. We have 8,000+ non-teaching admin and support personnel and only 6,500 teachers. We need to rightsize that number so we have more teachers than non-teachers. This is a start.

ScienceTeacher671

December 30th, 2010
11:44 pm

100 years ago they didn’t need no stinkin’ custodians! Teachers cleaned up their own rooms! It was part of the job, if you couldn’t give a student detention and make him/her do it instead!

Dekalbite@Swamp rat

December 30th, 2010
11:47 pm

“Outsource the teachers as well. Why should we give them large salaries and pensions ? ”

Yes. And while we’re at it let’s just get rid of those pesky students. Just collect the taxes for kids and then spend it all on admin and support – oh – I’m sorry – I thought that’s the way we’re moving now. How ridiculous. Teachers and students are the only members of the classroom. Without them we have no reason to pay 70% of our property taxes.

@Science Teacher

December 30th, 2010
11:49 pm

No one wants to get rid of the custodial staff. But you obviously don’t work for DCSS. Sometimes they’re great – sometimes teachers end up sweeping their rooms and wiping down the cafeteria tables. Who’s to say that the service will not be better?

@ @Science Teacher

December 30th, 2010
11:51 pm

I agree. I worked for the DeKalb Schools for 7 years and then went to work for BellSouth. I remember that some custodians were good and some not so good in DeKalb Schools. Whatever – we were stuck with what we had.

When I went to BellSouth, I remember that my department moved to a different building and the custodial care was okay, but not stellar. This went on for a few months and then all of a sudden the building was noticeably immaculate. I mentioned this to someone, and they said there had been some complaints about the custodial service so the building owners contracted with a new custodial service. I’ll never forget that I marveled that you could get a new custodial group if the first one didn’t work out. I was used to the being stuck with “the luck of the draw”. What an eye opener.

DCSS has to make decisions

December 30th, 2010
11:55 pm

Everyone wants to cut admin and support, but when it comes to cutting personnel they shrink from the task. It’s so easy to just not replace teachers when they leave (aka cut teacher positions). Of course, it does hurt someone very badly – students. This conversation is not about students. It’s about grown-ups. Is that what our educational system has become – a conversation about the grown-ups and not about the students. They don’t have a voice and they don’t vote. I guess they don’t count. How do you think they feel being packed into classrooms all day with 30+ other kids – not able to do any hands-on activities and bumping into other kids every time they turn around? They are who we need to feel sorry for.

It's about time

December 31st, 2010
12:03 am

It’s about time Ms. Tyson and the BOE cut somewhere besides the classroom. At least these people will be replaced. The almost 400 teacher positions they cut were not replaced. I hope the BOE doesn’t get cold feet and decide they can just do without more teachers and cram more students into classrooms.

say what?

December 31st, 2010
12:13 am

There are too many unanswered questions for the entire county to be outsourced. At least one DCSS employee(plant engineer) at each school to monitor this new group. Currently, custodians DO not get paid overtime for coming to work early to open a building, remaining late for school functions, using their own vehicles to pick up landscape materials for the school, etc. I hope that DCSS has included those expenses in the expectations- your employees will be expected to work without pay and/or comp time.
I doubt that leadership had enough sense to add a requirement that potential placements go through 2 background checks- one with the employer and one with DCSS, as DCSS is ultimately financially responsible for the criminal activities of these outsourced employees.
They should also be required to meet code of ethics and sexual harrasment training with the rest of the employees.

How does a prinicpal fire these outsourced people? When a parent has a complaint where will it go? If we are going to go on a new trajectory, may as well correct as much as possible in the contract.

We may save $500K overall going ahead with this plan, but the tax revenue will decrease because the new jobs pay $8.50-$10 per hour. In order to get around paying for benefits most, if not all 900 positions will be part-time. I understand outsourcing service center jobs, but not those who are in the building with access to DCSS resources- teachers and students as well as physical resources. I see the theft rate increasing.

Cut central staff- are chief of staff, deputy super., assistant super, coordinators,area supers., area coordinators, really necessary? These are highly paid customer service representatives who do not need a Ph.D/Ed.D to get the job done.

Ask them

December 31st, 2010
12:15 am

Why don’t you ask the teachers if they want even more kids in their classroom or do they want outsourcing? Why not ask the students if they want to rub elbows with a even more students and get even less attention from their teacher because they’re in larger classes? These were the ones affected when Lewis and Tyson cut hundreds of teaching positions. I guess custodians are more important than students being in a decent sized classroom.

Now Ms. Tyson needs to take on the bloated MIS and Central Office. That should prove interesting.

@ Say what

December 31st, 2010
12:20 am

Many government agencies and private industry have been successfully outsourcing custodial services for many years. Often the service is better. And if it isn’t then DCSS is not stuck. They can change contractors. I don’t think there is any room left to cut in the classroom. Students and teachers have born all the burden of cuts these last two years, and students cannot bear any more. Ever wonder why we have such attrition in the teaching end, but little attrition in the admin and support end. We have made it miserable to be a teacher. What a sad state of affairs.

HS Public Teacher

December 31st, 2010
12:40 am

News Flash….

DeKalb County already outsources its teachers. There are many teachers from other Countries that teach in DeKalb under “contract”. They are not fully certified. They are paid very very little and most are forced to live in shared apartments.

The joy of paying taxes and living in DeKalb!

Fire Bad Teachers

December 31st, 2010
1:03 am

The fact Dekalb County is looking to outsource speaks volumes. If the current workers were being paid the going market wage, this would not even be an option. Maybe Dekalb could get some bids from private companies and then allow the current employees to keep their jobs at the going market rate or maybe a little under that rate since the private companies would be making a profit.

It’s simple, pay the market rate for the work or call it an entitlement program.

I wonder if any of these employees end up drawing unemployment during the summer?

say what?

December 31st, 2010
1:04 am

@@ Dec 31st- What recent outsourcing that has occurred in new governments is that there was little savings/more expenses ( Sandy Springs, Milton,etc).If DCSS is netting a savings of less than $3Million, then the process needs to be re-evaluated. With these jobs paying less than $10/hour and no benefits, turn over will be high, and how safe is that for our students.

Other government and private sector entities are not responsible for the daily safety and care of so many minors. something must be done, and teachers have taken a hard hit with the expectation to create miracles with fewer and fewer resources.
I remember when a principal at columbia HS felt that he should have been promoted to some big titled job, and threatened to leave DCSS. A job was created- Leadership Development program Liaison, or something worthless, so that he would stay with the county instead of going to APS. The Leadership “training” was a bunch of fluff fluff stuff only for those who were selected by the powers that be with the blessings of your administrator. Well he has gone to APS as first planned, so why is this nonsense still in place. Shouldn”t all professional developement occur in the professional development unit? There are 2 administrators for the program at over $120K annual salary and benefits for each of them. Save that money and put it back in the classroom.

Peggy

December 31st, 2010
1:26 am

It doesn’t matter what county or state you live in the school systems are a disgrace. With all the tax money we take in it’s a damn shame our urban school districts across the country are failing. 20yrs ago when I was deciding on a career I was constantly told there will always be a need for teachers and nurses. When I see headlines about corporate CEO leaving their positions with 100 mil or more it just makes me sick. We spend too much on the military. We spend too much on elections. When I hear that a billionaire spent 100 mil of their own money only to lose an election I privately wish they would burn in hell. I stop giving to my church when they started taking in 200k a week but the only thing the church was offering was financial classes on how to get out of debt so you can give more to the church. Homelessness & ignorance run rampant through out the city while mega church pasters drive 350k Bentley’s and fly in private jets. The easiest people in this world to control are the poor, the stupid or both. That’s the real reason politicians (ON BOTH SIDES) could care less about our educational system.

@ Say what

December 31st, 2010
1:27 am

Then let’s see how other school systems have done and avoid some of the pitfalls. Also, it could be done in phases to see how well DCSS manages it. I’ve had good custodians and bad custodians. I know what it’s like to have to sweep your own room.

Personally, I think there are many non-teaching areas that need to be outsourced and many more need to be reformed or have personnel cut from them.

Keep Jobs

December 31st, 2010
2:30 am

I am not in favor of outsourcing the custodial jobs.
The budget deficit should be bridged with cuts
to salary, and benefit concessions instead of
laying off staff, and hiring a firm to provide
custodians. Part of the reason why school
districts maintain a maintenance staff is
to ensure the safety of students by controlling
the labor pool with legitimate and uncompromised
background checks-the bottom line should be safety
over
cost.

Feds Need to Take Over

December 31st, 2010
4:55 am

The governance and administration of Georgia’s schools is corrupt, dishonest, and self-serving for the lawyers and politicians. No one at DeKalb, or APS, or Clayton, or many other system is interested in the kids or parents. All they want to do is control the money and put it in their pockets. They skim the money and throw the kids out on the street. If the feds would step in, they could stop this disgraceful rout. Not by running the systems, but exposing Glenn Brock, SACS, and their co-conspirators.

TW

December 31st, 2010
6:02 am

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Write Your Board Members

December 31st, 2010
6:32 am

DeKalb won’t get this right. They certainly won’t ask other school systems what they have done in terms of outsourcing. The powers that be won’t ask the right questions.

There is a fair amount of corruption in processes like this. Why do you think DCSS officials won’t get caught again?

ScienceTeacher671

December 31st, 2010
6:34 am

@ Science Teacher & @@ Science Teacher: I already said I wasn’t in Dekalb. I’m down south in “the other Georgia,” but I went to http://www.open.georgia.gov to see how you do things up there.

Wow! Down here, our custodians are lucky to make over $20K/year! Some of your custodians make as much as our beginning teachers! And the bus drivers! Not that I would drive a school bus down here, much less in Atlanta, but the bus drivers make as much as beginning teachers, too! Bus drivers down this way are more likely to make in the $10-15K range, although there are a few paid over $20K.

One can only imagine what they pay the bloated central office staff! (Actually, one doesn’t have to imagine, but I got tired of looking…)

Write Your Board Members

December 31st, 2010
6:34 am

A major problem with this discussion is that bloggers both here and on DeKalb School Watch Blog presume that DCSS will actually use the savings for anything related to the classroom.

The state is coming with big cuts. DCSS will have to cut lots. This time next year, how different will the personnel and salaries be at the central office?

Seen it all before

December 31st, 2010
6:47 am

Recipe for failure – cut workers at the bottom of the pay scale, who perform actual, visible, tangible services for students and educators, and who work far away from the central offices. Recipe for success, cut workers at the top of the pay scale, who perform services for administrators, and who work at the central offices.

Bill

December 31st, 2010
7:08 am

Swamp-rat,

It is not clear to me what state you live in. There are NO teachers unions in Georgia, and teachers certainly do not receive big salaries.

Bill

December 31st, 2010
7:14 am

How can outsourcing like this save money? The only difference is you are adding a layer of management, and a layer of profit. If it works, it is because no one was managing the process in the first place. If the custodial process is inefficient, improve it. If those managing the process won’t or can’t improve it, replace them.

Road Scholar

December 31st, 2010
7:34 am

Let the students clean the schools! With the lack of education they seem to be getting (GA 49-50th in the country), it will be on the job trainning for their future occupation!

geprgiadawg70

December 31st, 2010
7:46 am

Lay off the teachers and let the janitors teach the kids. They are not not learning anyway and it will be a whole let cheaper. I am sick of paying the high property taxes and getting nothing in return.

jmcathome

December 31st, 2010
7:48 am

Will the BOE use the savings to give another bonus to the teachers and not realize that money wont be there a the end of the year to keep teachers

destin dawg

December 31st, 2010
7:52 am

Don’t need UNIONS for any gov’t job…. they’re working for their city, State, or Fed…. they should be proud to serve their neighbors and their country.. like the military….. Unions have an immense negative effect on productivity… I never had tenure on any job…. pay for performance … no body needs that many days off, holidays with pay, etc.

destin dawg

December 31st, 2010
7:55 am

Look at Greece and Southern Europe… . look at California… where Demos and Unions have sold their kids futures !!!

geprgiadawg70

December 31st, 2010
7:56 am

TW, You should give proper credit to whomever coined the phrase. I first say it as a little boy under the glass on my father’s desk. It refered to the Nazi’s. This is not Berlin and it is not the thirties. This is DeKalb Co. and it is 2010. No comparison.

destin dawg

December 31st, 2010
7:58 am

Pay kids over 16 who need part time jobs to janitor jobs ??? as a parent would be better than fast food/retail !!??!!

Teacher for Life

December 31st, 2010
8:06 am

APS outsources. I still clean my room everyday because the non speakers of English just move the desks and do nothing. If I don’t clean up, ants and other insects will come.

Do they understand what a broom is? That big push crap they have leaves black marks and gets up nothing. I use a dustpan too. I clean and wipe my board down daily and wipe down the desks. I just am amazed that parents don’t realize that maid is part of my job description.

Tom Teacher

December 31st, 2010
8:14 am

The salaries of the custodians are not the expensive part; it’s the benefits. That is where the savings is. Until we cut the fat at the central offices of all the metro counties, we won’t make a difference in the budgets. The waste at the various central offices is disgusting.

Ronin

December 31st, 2010
8:21 am

Interesting topic… This is the first step to cut costs, next it will be the teaching assistants, then the teachers. Last, the boated administration will come under scrutiny.

The school system is another government jobs program. Sure, there are some wonderful teachers and there are some hacks, but most full time staff are eligible for health care and pension benefits.
There simply is not enough money to keep funding long term pension benefits for school support staff, which will include teachers. Privatizing custodial staff will save money, a lot. The same argument will be applied to the teaching staff. The only people that will remain safe, in the short term, are the fat cat administrative staff. Within the next ten years, the days of a teacher retiring at age 52 and spending 35 plus years in retirement will be over. The cost of maintain the long term pension and medical plans is staggering. Next on the list will be fire departments and yes, even police services.
Current state policy rewards teachers for “advanced” degrees, many of which were on line diploma mills. Until there are major changes made in the government education program, you can expect the same abysmal results.

Peter Smagorinsky

December 31st, 2010
8:33 am

Bill’s comment is worth repeating for anyone who believes that there are teacher unions in Georgia, and that unions are raising wages, protecting bad teachers, etc.:

Swamp-rat,

It is not clear to me what state you live in. There are NO teachers unions in Georgia, and teachers certainly do not receive big salaries.

tradebait

December 31st, 2010
8:42 am

more concerning as reported by the AJC is the 25% failure rate of our students coming out of our school system who cannot pass a simple military test exam. do whatever is necessary to educate the young people better so they can contribute to society

lonnie

December 31st, 2010
8:45 am

About 35% of black kids don’t pass the AVSAB. Would be interesting to see stats for Dekalb. Many of the grads from the south Dekalb schools are close to illiterate.

An American Patriot

December 31st, 2010
8:54 am

@Maureen – Shouldn’t those jobs be outside the classroom?

Well, of course, Maureen, but I’ve come to the conclusion that nothing short of a revolution is gonna solve this mess that we’ve let our politicians and self serving public servants get us into. You parents with children in the system need to march, in mass, to your county or city offices and demand that your school system be fixed……talking and writing is not gonna get it done. To relieve the budget crisis I’m gonna throw this out one more time…..”The student transportation system (school buses) needs to either be 1) eliminated, or 2) start charging for the priviledge of using the system……our local school systems can no longer afford to provide this service for free.

Well, Maureen and everyone else (particularly you, DPBM) I am signing off. I, An American Patriot will no longer comment on these blogs. They have become a useless waste of my time and energy. I have served my time participating with my three sons in school and sports activities in DeKalb County Schools in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s when they were actually worth attending and a good education could be received. I have sympathy for those of you who have to suffer through these tough times……but, take heart, if you instill in your children the need to get the most out of their educational opportunities, they will succeed…..but, you need to actively participate in the process. I’m 10/10 and on the side

oldtimer

December 31st, 2010
8:58 am

After leaving Ga, I taught in a union state…I made only 2/3 of what I made in Ga and the state contributes nothing to benefits. If I had needed it insurance for a fmaily is $1000 a month. Custodial staff, bus drivers etc also get NO benefits while working or upon retiring. But, the school was the most well cared for school I ever worked in.

Clean "out" Hedquarters

December 31st, 2010
9:02 am

I suggest “cleaning out” the Headquarters positions first – beginning with legal and public relations – Just how much does the district spendd on PR and legal vs the savings for outsourcing custodians ?
Does the new superintendent have a new mouthpiece – at what price ?

Lee

December 31st, 2010
9:05 am

Over the years, I have observed several instances of outsourcing and rarely do they provide the LONG-TERM cost savings / benefits that were presented.

That said, custodial is frequently one of the low hanging fruits that is outsourced simply because of the price differential between keeping a full time employee with benefits vs outsourcing to a company who will hire minimum wage, temporary employees. In the case of Dekalb, you have numerous custodians making over $40k / yr. What has happened is that the wage scale has gotten way overpriced.

Maintenance is a little more difficult. If you want a licensed electrician or heating/air guy, you are going to have to pay for it. $50k is not unrealistic for this skill set.

If you peruse through Dekalb’s salary report, there are some interesting tidbits. Example, there are about ten employees with “Clerk” in their title who make over $70k. How the hell did that happen?

catlady

December 31st, 2010
9:06 am

I don’t know what janitors make in Atlanta. Here it is about minimum wage. They DO work in the summer, preparing the school for the next year (so no unemployment). I don’t think any of the “classified” workers do it for the money; they do it for the health care.
Start the cuts at the top. Not only do you stand to see the most benefit (in every kind of way) but it sets a good example for the rest of us upon whose back the budget has been balanced the last couple of years.

Our system has made a small cut in the CO–4 half-time positions. We need many, many more. Do a functional audit of all who do not work directly with children. Cut three fourths. Then look at those who serve few children–cut them in half. Then look at teachers. See if any areas are “overstocked.”

In our system we have too many who are not pulling a full load, but are getting full-time pay. Not surprisingly, they tend to be family members of the BOE, or coaches’ wives, etc.

Cut auxillary personnel. We can get by without half of them. Yes, it is NICe and HELPful to have them, but not at the expense of the classroom.

Cut planning times. The high school just dropped the block scheduling–teachers were getting 2 hours per day to plan. Next they need to do the same with the middle school. Teachers of the younger children already get only 30 minutes. Even that out. If you cut the lengthy planning time, you won’t need several of the teachers.

catlady

December 31st, 2010
9:09 am

One more thing: Cut door to door bus service. Designate central dropoff/pickup points. Kids who don’t make it on time have to be brought by their parents. Kids whose parents don’t show up on time in the afternoon are taken to the police station for possible referral to DFACS. Let’s get real–spread the inconvenience to all so all will appreciate the problem.

Lynn43

December 31st, 2010
9:16 am

Twice my county in the far past tried outsourcing some of these services. It was a total failure. No money was saved and the buildings were left in a horrible condition. Maybe some management companies are better now, but don’t bet on it.

Nikole

December 31st, 2010
10:09 am

It is necessary for a custodian to be on duty all day in an elementary school. Our bathrooms need constant cleaning, kids tend to throw up, and students are no longer allowed to clean off the cafeteria tables in Dekalb. The BOE should first address central office staff and salaries. Not low-level staff or CTSS (that’s who they let go last year and counted them as central office, even though they work in buildings w/ teachers). They should look at cutting MIS (they already contract out the heavy work, so contract them out completely), they should look at people like Marcus Turk, who’s in charge of the money during our biggest budget crisis and advocates for cutting teacher pay while his pay has increased by $50,000 in just a few short years. Custodians should be one of the last items we look at and only after we have examined the central office.

Double Zero Eight

December 31st, 2010
10:13 am

Outsource the administrators including the central office.

Teacher for Life

December 31st, 2010
10:17 am

Worst case scenario… And what will all of those laid off custodians and bus drivers do when they are no longer gainfully employed? Self-esteem still intact? Their own families, homes at risk? What jobs will they take? Where will they go?

Oh I know, they’ll all become entrepreneurs…right!

GNGS

December 31st, 2010
10:41 am

Bill has the most sensible post here, IMHO. The only way for an outside company to make money is to reduce pay and benefit of current employees. Must the budget be balanced on the back of the least able?

One interesting suggestion is to have a fee-based bus service. Perhaps higher income families can pay a transportation fee if they want to use school bus.

em

December 31st, 2010
11:06 am

Outsourcing is not a bad idea for non-teaching support personnel. However, other avenues need to be pursued as well. I have yet to see a school system cut back on athletics. Coaching supplements and the costs to maintain and operate athletic facilities are significant. Graduation coach positions need to be eliminated both at the high and junior high level. Cut testing. Put administrators back into the classroom and/or give teachers supervisory/administrative responsibilities in addition to teaching. Public education needs less bureaucracy; it needs to be flatter and more emphasis on education because it is evident that the current model is not working.

Wandless

December 31st, 2010
11:25 am

It is tough for anyone to lose their job, but sometimes tough decisions have to be made. I just hope that more thought and planning was put into this decision than the previous fiasco when trying to decide which schools to close. I have seen some diligent custodians and engineers, and I have quite honestly seen some that take advantage of their jobs: extending time to complete a task, not doing the job adequately, socializing with each other as well as school staff, commenting on how hard teachers have to work as they meander along, etc. Maybe a compromise can be made; maybe half of the projected number can be laid off, using seniority as the deciding factor (To prevent favoritism and nepotism from ruling). We have to be mindful of the county we are referring to. The remaining workers will then be required to work to their full capacity, with the looming possibility that their jobs could be in jeopardy. It seems like a win-win situation for all. Some get to keep their job and the county still saves money. Just a thought, we are still allowed to think, aren’t we?

Nikole

December 31st, 2010
11:35 am

@ Wandless–I agree with your assessment, but I think that DeKalb continues to allow for non-essential positions and bloated salaries at the highest levels. Those positions should be cut before cutting ANY other positions.

You've got to be kidding!

December 31st, 2010
11:36 am

Not the custodians… That won’t help. The only solution is to cut bureacratic waste at the CO.

TopPublicSchool

December 31st, 2010
11:43 am

Sounds like another deal for the top Administration to negotiate with their buddies in the janitorial businesses in local area.

Let the KICK-BACKS AND DONATIONS begin!

It’s all about moving the money around in a way that keeps your eye off of who has both hands in the POT…

Reorganization Account, Miscellaneous Fund, Discretionary Money, Beverly Hall’s BLOW money…

If they can move those salaries into smaller accounts…they have more flexibility to mismanage the money into kick backs for the individuals sitting pretty at the Administrative Office.

ASK REICH HOW THEY DO IT…AND SHE WILL SHARE IT WITH HER COLLEAGUES…

A “FAKE” Reorganization Plan —The BIG LIE “Reorganization Plan”
http://www.youtube.com/user/TopSchoolAtlanta#p/a/u/2/jbf-BeZsqas

http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com

TopPublicSchool

December 31st, 2010
11:49 am

aND THEN TELL ME WHAT THE PATH OF due process is…when someone discovers the sleazy top administration …is skimming off the tax payers money…

WHo will step up to the plate and tell…and who will protect those that tell?

These are the corrupt issues that need to have serious consideration. How does the Public School Systems protect a whistle-blower in the event test scores or public funds are misused.

Because those of us that have been on the inside of all of this …WE KNOWS WHAT IS GOING ON…
aND THE MASTER will whip us bloody raw fors a tellin.

http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com

Dundevil

December 31st, 2010
11:53 am

The outsourcing is not really to protect teachers. It is to protect DCSS administration jobs, paychecks and pensions

TopPublicSchool

December 31st, 2010
11:54 am

They’za still tryin to pull the wool over your eyes…

makin it look like thay’za try’in to do the right thing…while’sa they are filling thir pockets in handfuls in the back room.

Ya’ll sa not very smart. They still’in right in front of your eyes and mak’in foolishness out of everyone.
and the gubner knows it too.

TopPublicSchool

December 31st, 2010
11:59 am

they’za dum…and they’za thankin you’za and I’za really dum…

And they’za just gonna resign and smile pretty when the walk out the door within the pockets full.

Bye bye now…

catlady

December 31st, 2010
12:02 pm

By auxilliary personnel, I don’t mean janitors or lunchladies. I mean counselors, social workers, football field mowers, consultants, and those on 49% time who are not in the classroom. Yes, what they do is important, but NO we cannot afford them. We need boots on the ground, not camp followers.

catlady

December 31st, 2010
12:18 pm

BTW, I can remember in Alabama in the 60s the free lunch kids and sped kids did most of the cleaning, including scraping plates in the lunchroom. Guess most of you are too young to remember stuff like that.

TopPublicSchool

December 31st, 2010
12:18 pm

Maureen…Do you think the media has anything to to with this spin?

TopPublicSchool

December 31st, 2010
12:29 pm

Catlady…@ …An now that the minority leadership is on TOP in our public schools…seems like they would be sensitive to making sure those days don’t repeat themselves…AGAIN.

Only they turn a blind eye to all of it when it comes to addressing segregation of the Hispanic Community …and providing the same quality education and resources to the POVERTY areas of ATLANTA.

The BLACK minority leadership does not seem to SEE the differences in the north and south schools…when it is brought to their attention…they turn a blind eye…because they are catering to those WHITE FOLK that put them in the positions of leadership…and the paybacks are their own personal BLACK hell. Secrets in Atlanta Public Schools…that most know…but won’t discuss.

TopPublicSchool

December 31st, 2010
12:33 pm

You have to be careful when you polish silver plate…
too much polishing will take that shiny finish right off.

And when the master’s not lookin …i’m gonna take a brillo pad to that fancy piece and give it a good cleanin.

TopPublicSchool

December 31st, 2010
12:38 pm

I think Bill Campbell is in jail for the same thing the white man’s been doin…for a long time.
He sold out…but then decided he would screw them over in the process. I don’t think he was White man slick enough to get away with his crime.

Now, Beverly Hall is in Campbell’s shoes….hope she’s got enough ammunition or they’sa gonna use her as a scapegoat, too.

TopPublicSchool

December 31st, 2010
12:40 pm

And yes…it is all about RACE…And the BLACK FOLK …are selling out their own RACE in the outsourcing of the jobs in Dekalb County Schools.

EnoughAlready

December 31st, 2010
12:47 pm

The so-called cuts by outsourcing will only be good for about 2 to 5 years; by then the companies performing the jobs will be earning the same and more likely more than the custodians do today.

I truly do not see the benefits of outsourcing in the long run, because the companies bidding on these cleaning countracts are in business to make money. If the school system do not renew outsourced business contracts; it will become a revolving door of new vendors every two years.

ScienceTeacher671

December 31st, 2010
1:52 pm

The military decided to save money by outsourcing, and now they’re paying contractors for doing what privates used to do.

Paying them a whole lot more than privates make.

Just sayin’….

mommamonster

December 31st, 2010
2:04 pm

@catlady: OMG! Free lunch and SPED kids cleaning up after “normal” and “rich” kids…PRICELESS
Folks in ‘Bama used to hang the brown folks, too! But I’m too young to remember the “good old days”

mommamonster

December 31st, 2010
2:09 pm

Look, until parents and teachers (I am both in Cobb) get mad and get loud NOTHING will happen. I am not afraid to speak my mind and speak truth to power BUT I have been warned numerous times that I could be “targeted”if I do…That’s kinda scary but if anyone else is willing I’m in…where to start, though?

Dekalbite

December 31st, 2010
2:23 pm

Let’s look at the actual numbers.
DCSS has a little over 700 custodians and their salary is $17,400,000. They average around $25,000 per employee or $2,000 a month in salary. Benefits percentages are much higher for this group since they receive the same health benefits everyone else does. $10,000 is a conservative estimate. So each custodian costs around $35,000 in salary and benefits. And there are 700 of them. Can you see why Ms. Tyson is looking at outsourcing. Is $35,000 such low pay for a worker?

Ms. Tyson needs to address parts of MIS and Security next as well as the Central office. DCSS has become a giant jobs program from the top to the bottom.

BTW – my source on number of custodians and their average pay is the 2010 state salary and travel audit:
http://www.open.georgia.gov/

Dekalbite@catlady

December 31st, 2010
2:47 pm

So true.
We have 326 counselors in DCSS. Their combined salary and benefits are $27,500,000 so the average pay and benefits for each counselor is over $84,000 ($20,000 more a year than the average teacher). While Dr. Lewis and Ms. Tyson were busy these last two years cutting almost 400 teaching positions, these individuals were not impacted. They are not fulltime (i.e. 12 month employees). They get their summers off just like teachers.

Why let hundreds of teacher positions go and not touch this highly paid group that does not teach math, science, social studies, or language arts to students?

If we want our kids to be able to do math, read, write, understand basic science concepts, and participate in the democratic process, we need teachers. Without them, our kids are lost and so are we.

Write Your Board Members

December 31st, 2010
3:52 pm

DeKalbite

My children’s school, until this year, didn’t have enough counselors. I suspect we only got one additional one after several parents had nightmarish experiences with college applications and deadlines and such.

However, we need schools like DSA and the small elementary schools to start sharing counselors. It is time.

Dekalbite@Write Your Board Members

December 31st, 2010
4:36 pm

As schools are consolidated, we need to trim the counselors. But that can’t be all there is to it. State salary and travel audit figures tell us we overpay them and that we have too many.

Ms. Tyson needs to take a look at the DCSS cost for counselors. This is one of most expensive groups in DCSS. I just looked at Gwinnet’s counselors. Gwinnett has 150,000 students to our 96,000 students.
DCSS has 326 counselors costing $27,500,000 in salary and benefits
Gwinnett has 200 counselors costing $13,7000,000 in salary and benefits

Each DCSS counselor averages $84,000 a year in salary and benefits (average teacher $65,000)
Each Gwinnett counselor averages $68,500 a year in salary and benefits (average teacher $65,000)

I did notice Gwinnett has 28 Counseling Paraprofessionals which cost around $900,000 in salary and benefits.

Custodial savings pale by comparison with our overpriced counselor group.

And notice how in line counselors salaries are with teachers.

Dekalbite@Write Your Board Members

December 31st, 2010
4:56 pm

Look at Cobb County Counselors. Cobb County has around 107,000 students to DCSS’s 96,000 students. So they have more students than we d by about 10,000.

DCSS has 326 counselors costing $27,500,000 in salary and benefits
Cobb has 320 counselors costing $21,000,000 in salary and benefits

Each DCSS counselor averages $84,000 a year in salary and benefits (average teacher $65,000)
Each Cobb Co. counselor averages $65,000 a year in salary and benefits (average teacher $65,000)

And notice that counselors make exactly what teachers make in Cobb.

What gives with this group? I certainly hope Ms. Tyson us comparing our counselor cost with other school systems.

(source: state Salary and Travel audit – http://www.open.georgia.gov/)

Write Your Board Members

December 31st, 2010
5:23 pm

Cobb has about half as many poor students as DCSS. In addition, Cobb has fewer schools.

Cobb’s poverty rate is growing at a pretty quick pace as is Gwinnett’s. Only time will tell what their schools and staffing will look like in the future.

No idea why DCSS counselor’s are paid so much.

administrator

December 31st, 2010
5:39 pm

They did this in Cobb years ago. It was a failure. The company who took on the custodial work did a terrible job–the schools were filthy–because they had no stake in it, no connection to the schools. They went back to the old way after just a year or two–locally based custodial staff. They also tried it with technology services–that one lasted longer, but eventually, they found that it simply wasn’t meeting the needs of the district. So they flipped on that one as well. It will be interesting to see if this works in another district.

Give it a test

December 31st, 2010
5:51 pm

Why not look at outsourcing all the facilities outside the schoolhouse and see if the contractor does a good job? I would never dismiss any cost saving measure so fast without the data to prove it will not work. This is fairly easy to do. Or give some principals who volunteer to try it out the money that goes for custodial seervices. Let a few of them try it out and then see how that works. My understanding is at Arabia Mtn. HS in DCSS (that great big new beautiful facility) contracts out some of their custodial services. Does anyone know of complaints from them? Does it save DCSS money? Surely Ms. Tyson has looked at Arabia HS to see if the same quality of service is there and if it saves DCSS money. We need to be looking at every option. Increasing class sizes is not really an option this time – sorry to people who want to pack more kids into classes.

other areas to cut as well

December 31st, 2010
6:40 pm

DCSS is already paying $4,500,000 for 73 Parent Resource Center specialists (Ms. Zepora Robert’s daughter is one – almost slugged a reporter over that question) to do what the counselors should be doing (and were doing before the BOE hired 73 more people and set up these Parent Centers). Their average pay is $61,000 in salary and benefits (they are not certified in counseling and very few are certified in teaching).

So now we have $27,500,000 for counselors and $4,500,000 (average pay of for the Parent Centers. That’s $32,000,000 we’re spending for 399 people.

Has Ms. Tyson or the BOE even looked at these groups?

just watching

December 31st, 2010
7:19 pm

The district is thinking like a business and considering outsourcing. Good. As long as all those contractors must submit to background checks like all other school employees, then it works.

As for those of you mentioning unions….we don’t really have teacher UNIONS in Georgia. We have “associations.” They do not have the collective bargaining power of unions in other states. I’m glad they don’t.

Joyous

December 31st, 2010
7:45 pm

Start with the service employees, foremen, coordinators, managers, supervisors, etc. at the Service Center. They are less needed that the custodians. I was say 90 percent of these emplyees do not even know what they are doing!!! They are paid high salaries for their positions, and they are not even trained or licensed in their positions. The administrators were just placed there because they were not capable of doing their jobs in the schools. Clear out the Service Center and outsource these jobs!!! A lot of wasted money will be saved for our teachers and students.

Ima

December 31st, 2010
7:46 pm

Enter your comments here

Dekalbite@ administrator

December 31st, 2010
7:50 pm

I think you may be incorrect on the technical people. The state Salary and Travel audit shows $4,000,000 (no benefits – only salary) was paid to Enterprise ASP for 650 part time technology specialist. They pay a Tech Coordinator $89,000.

Days of Heaven

December 31st, 2010
7:57 pm

Take a look back @ the 2/4/2010 AJC article “DeKalb school employees at Hollywood conference”. That’s right, they sent 180 school system employees to Hollywood, CA for “training” at a cost of $380,000. Then when someone questioned the cost the (then) superintendent justified it on the basis that it was federal money and not DeKalb taxpayer money. I recall wondering to myself if DeKalb taxpayers aren’t also federal taxpayers. Anyway whenever the DeKalb schools claim to have a budget shortfall I think about the Hollywood trip.

d

December 31st, 2010
10:55 pm

Interesting note to someone who said parents and teachers need to rise up and let your voices be heard – DCSS is considering a proposal to radically change how they have public comments at the BOE meetings. Most notably, they will reduce the amount of time by 1/2 from an hour to 30 minutes and also limit what topics people can be heard on.

Teacher Reader

December 31st, 2010
11:07 pm

The shortfall that DeKalb and many other school systems are facing are due to not using the money that they have in the most efficient way. When one looks at the salaries of many working in the Palace, one just scratches his/her head. How does the secretary for the superintendent make more than a teacher? Why are the coaches who are paid with Title 1 funds, not helping to teach the children and giving the children a better education? Why do we have more people working in administration, than we do teachers teaching the children?

I am all for outsourcing if our schools will be cleaner and proper background checks are done on the workers.

What happens in Japanese schools wouldn’t fly here. First, people don’t have respect for each other let alone themselves. Second, the first child to get hurt in any of those situations would win a huge law suit for negligence. People in the USA are too quick to blame others and don’t take responsibility for their own actions. We also don’t have the personal discipline to handle these types of situations-wish we did, as then our schools would have better outcomes. Teachers wouldn’t have to spend so much time disciplining the children.

Reality Check

December 31st, 2010
11:11 pm

The employer portion of State Health benefits is less for custodial staff and all other classified positions than for certified positions. They charge a flat rate for all classified positions, but employers are charged a percentage of certified personnel’s salary.
I haven’t heard any success stories regarding outsourcing custodial staff. Normally your custodial staff live in the area and have a vested interest in the community. That is huge when you are talking about lower wage earners.
People seem to take this as either custodians or teachers have to go and it shouldn’t be like that. It takes all of usworking together to make the system work.
Yes, we all know that some custodians don’t pull their weight–but I haven’t seen a job yet that didn’t have it’s share of slackers.
Bottom line is if you put 700 people in your community out of work, it will take that much longer for economic recovery.

Dekalbite@reality check

January 1st, 2011
1:06 am

“Yes, we all know that some custodians don’t pull their weight–but I haven’t seen a job yet that didn’t have it’s share of slackers.
Bottom line is if you put 700 people in your community out of work, it will take that much longer for economic recovery.”

The educational system cannot be a jobs program. Every nickel we cut means more teachers in the classroom. And yes. …DCSS needs to cut Central Office employees, the Parent Resource Centers ($4,5,00,000), Instructional Coaches need to be pared back (90 of them at $9,000,000 a year), America’s Choice needs to be cut (it has shown no improvement in student achievement for DCSS students ($8,000,000 a year), MIS needs rightsizing and outsourcing ($20,000,000 a year for 290 employees but scan access and mostly non-working technology for students and teachers (not to mention the $11,000,000 SchoolNet and eSis systems they put in place in 2007 which still do not deliver the results they promised).

The Ernst and Young 2004 Compensation study did. After it was shown that 2,500 non-teaching employees were over paid by $15,000,000 a year, it was quickly buried by Dr. Lewis and no one has been able to bring it to light.

This study only took 4 months from start to finish and was extremely comprehensive (ask anyone who filled out the survey for the independent Ernst and Young consultants).

If Ms. Tyson and the BOE has commissioned such a study in July, we should have had the results by now and decisions could have been made with empirical data. Maybe we would not be having such a debate about outsourcing custodians. $15,000,000 x 6 years = $90,000,000.

cricket

January 1st, 2011
2:44 am

Someone said the teachers could just clean their rooms themselves. FYI… we already do! Most custodians I have known do very little. I’ve worked in 3 different systems over the years and I can assure you that if a teacher’s room was clean it’s because she cleaned it herself AFTER HOURS. Custodians at my school don’t do much more than move an old useless vacuum around the room for 30 seconds about every third day. (-that’s only IF the chairs are picked up.) If I ever wanted the floor properly swept or vacuumed I had to do bring my own vacuum and do it myself.

cricket

January 1st, 2011
2:50 am

“BOE hired 73 more people and set up these Parent Centers). Their average pay is $61,000 in salary and benefits (they are not certified in counseling and very few are certified in teaching).”

not a jobs program? Ha! God help us.

catlady

January 1st, 2011
9:25 am

How many parents use these parent centers? We have one in each school but the librarian runs it, at no extra pay. I don’t think a single parent has gone in, despite signs all over and other publicity for it. That is an easy savings.

My experience with custodians: excellent. We used to have a few elderly folks who wanted to ride the job to retirement but they are gone now, and the middle aged folks doing it now work hard. They make 17,000-23,000 per year working full time year round.

My experience with the IT techs hasn’t been so good. We bought sub-standard hard and software (wonder why) and don’t do such a good job keeping it running. The system crashes every day, and there are “patches” on top of patches. I think some of the folks got the job because of family connections rather than expertise.

Work from the TOP DOWN to save real money. Get rid of 2/3 of those with no direct teaching duties. (excluding lunchroom workers and custodians). The rest can do what teachers are having to do: double up, take on extra duties for less pay, wear many hats, etc.

Run bus routes to and from central locations rather than door to door.

Oh, and for the next 4 years (until Nathan Deal gets it all straightened out) get rid of all high school and middle school extracurriculars for the whole state. THAT will get parents fired up and anxious to solve this problem.

You don’t solve a problem until it becomes important to YOU. That is called “involving all the stakeholders.”

Principal

January 1st, 2011
10:06 am

I am principal in a school that uses a private custodial service. They come in at 10:00 at night and are gone by 5:00 the next morning. For the first time in 14 years as a principal I don’t have to worry about the cleanliness of the building or custodial absenteeism which is a never ending nightmare. The crew is managed by the contracting company and if there is a problem the company makes it right. There has been no theft since the private company started. I can focus on other things rather than the lack of paper in the bathrooms and trash being removed from the classrooms each evening. You think it is difficult to terminate a nonperforming teacher? Try termminating a nonperforming custodian. 10 times more difficult. They just move the nonperforming custodians from school to school

Ima

January 1st, 2011
10:11 am

Lee, 50K is UNREALISTIC for an electrician or HAVC worker, if they can’t do the job. This is the case with most of those in these positions. Why do you think an electrical HELPER lost his life not so long ago? The ELECTRICIAN should have been doing the job; however, do you think maybe HE didn’t know what he was doing either?!!! I have observed these individuals in my school. They do not have a clue what they are doing…WHEN THEY TRY TO DO SOMETHING!!! I was told that their supervisors and foremen do not know the jobs to give them advice or assistance. Money is just flying out the window!!!

The Columbia HS principal who was promoted to a big salary position is the one who started all of the corruptions at the Service Center. He needs to be headed for court also!!!

Child Advocate

January 1st, 2011
10:39 am

destin dawg – idiot! What classroom teacher is given paid holidays and day off? If kids are not in the clasroom, teachers don’t get paid (except for pre and post planning days). Teachers are forced to sign contracts with no salary guarantees for a set number of work days. Parents insist on thanksgiving, Christmas, fall and spring breaks. Teachers are not paid when not in the classroom.

catlady

January 1st, 2011
10:48 am

Principal: What happens when you need services during the day? Our custodians are continuously cleaning up vomit, blood, or spills, replenishing TP, etc. You just leave it till the night crew comes in?

Principal

January 1st, 2011
12:11 pm

There is one person on duty during the day to take care of issues that come up. Works just fine

Lee

January 1st, 2011
12:21 pm

@Catlady, my wife’s school contracted out the “cleaning” services a few years ago. However, they kept one custodian/maintenance man at each school to take care of the day-to-day stuff that you described as well as small maintenance items such as changing light bulbs, unstopping toilets, etc.

@IMA, I agree, if someone cannot do the job, then they certainly are not worth the money you pay. Usually, a LICENSED electrician/HVAC/plumber, etc, etc, implies a certain degree of competence [keyword; USUALLY].

bootney farnsworth

January 1st, 2011
12:45 pm

ah yes, the game of Surivior has begun.
we’ve already been playing it at GPC for some time, so y’all have fun.

please, go ahead and terminate as many of us non faculty types as you can. custodians, library workers, secretaries, tech support types, all of us who do all the things necessary for the annointed holy faculty to
brighten young minds by their mere presence.

hell, most faculty can’t manage to turn on a video projector or manage not to write on a screen clearly labeled do not write on.

please, be that stupid. watching you turn on each other will be fun.
once you find out for all your Ph.D.s you can’t function without us, you’ll turn even further on each other.

you’ve got us flunkies down to next to none making even less than we do now, even less committed to serving the kids, and less trusting of faculty than we already are -if that’s even possible. now the fun really begins.

math will be safe.
so will most sciences.
after that …

does English really matter all that much?
Foriegn Language?
Humanities in general?
PE – certainly not.
Social Studies?
God help the Arts.

you faculty fools will form a circular firing squad and start taking yourselfs out. if will look like some pathetic epsiode of dork Survivor.

and nothing gets done about the real source of the problem.
out of control spending by our of control administrators.

but at least we’ll have a new spin on an old joke: how do you
get a former teacher off your portch (spelling intentional, look it up)

pay for the pizza.

go ahead, be idiots faculty like you often are. endorse this idiotic plan. reap your whirlwind.

Dekalbite@rcatlady

January 1st, 2011
1:13 pm

DCSS has 11 Parent Resource Centers. Within those centers are 63 employees. Their salary and benefits are $4,000,000. Adding to the cost there are two Parent Liaison Specialists in the Central Office – Office of School Improvement – one makes $84,000 in salary and benefits and the other makes $78,000. NEITHER one of these coordinators in the Office of School Improvement have any teaching certificates – not even SUPPORT PERSONNEL LICENSE many of our non-teaching, have no education degree managers got in order to supervise certified personnel.

The Parent Center group has long been a favorite place to employ friends and family members. Ms. Roberts (who threatened to slug the TV reporter if further questions were asked about her daughter) has a daughter as a coordinator of one of the centers. She started there around 5 years ago. 2005 her salary was $11,384 in the Parent Center. 2008 her salary jumped to $53,292.17 & Travel Expenses $107.19 as a Family Services Coordinator. In 2009 her salary jumped to $59,895.57 still as a Family Services Coordinator. As of 2010, it stands at $61,196 ($76,500 with benefits) -while at the same time teachers took a pay cut . She does not have a teaching degree and makes more than a DCSS Masters level physics teacher with 18 years of teaching experience. Now you can see why this is a favorite place to tuck friends and family into.

I do not know how much the Parent Centers are utilized. I do know that the counselors and social workers used to perform the functions of the Parent Center employees. They should assume those functions again. Counselors and Social Workers positions were not cut these past 2 years, while almost 400 teacher positions were cut and class sizes increased. I would suggest that the $4,000,000 goes back into providing math, science, social studies and science teachers for our students and let the counselors and social workers take on the responsibilities they relinquished to the parent center group.

catlady

January 1st, 2011
3:16 pm

I really doubt that we can get custodians for less than the $17,000 plus bennies (our local pay). That is about $8.50 per hour. Once you pay for the “middleman,” can privatizing beat that? We have 4 at our school–620 students.

Let’s contract out our CO staff. I am SURE we can save money there. Almost anyone will work for less than $10,000 per month.

Concerned Parent

January 1st, 2011
3:24 pm

My 14 year old grand dauther said PaPa why don”t they just layoff the janitors at night and keep DCSS janitors for the day shift so we will feel safe and outsource the night shift with a DCSS head janitor to oversee the security and night maintenance.

APS Teacher

January 1st, 2011
3:36 pm

there is corruption everything.

NWGA Teacher

January 1st, 2011
5:34 pm

My system outsourced custodial services. In many cases, we were able to keep “our” people, particularly during the day. It has worked very well in some schools. In other schools, there was rampant theft, particularly during summer. My information comes from my own knowledge (theft of many items, paid for out of pocket) and discussions with teachers at other schools.

Ol' Roy

January 1st, 2011
6:51 pm

Same old same old. Protect the teachers at all costs – even the grossly inept and barely literate teachers. Continue producing “graduates” who are unqualified for anything other than manual labor.

catlady

January 1st, 2011
7:46 pm

“School staff are now reviewing those bids to determine if the move is cost-effective”–or, how much can the decision-makers profit off this?

Really amazed

January 1st, 2011
7:52 pm

I still don’t see why speech ther, audiologist, hearing and eye check ups can’t be the one’s outsourced!! These positions can be done via doctor visits!! Why are our tax dollars paying for medical services? If not outsourced than why not, at least be part time positions? Also, for the parents that care about their children going to college, they can hire their own graduation coach. What a bunch of waste going on in the central office. Could also cut back on so many vice princ. and administrative positions too.

Sam

January 1st, 2011
7:57 pm

Maybe the kids in ISS can clean the school for free. Might eliminate some of the behavior problems.

Really amazed

January 1st, 2011
8:04 pm

Every kid I know is already in the gifted program, making straight A’s any way so, why do they need anymore education???

Ernest

January 1st, 2011
8:24 pm

Really amazed said, I still don’t see why speech ther, audiologist, hearing and eye check ups can’t be the one’s outsourced!! These positions can be done via doctor visits!! Why are our tax dollars paying for medical services?

You do realize this is already happening. Demand for services exceeds the supply of specialist on staff hence a LOT of outsourcing is occurring in this area. Parents knowledgeable about federal and state laws can really get the services they want for their children.

Quite a bit of central office staffing is there for compliance. Remove those people and you could be creating an environment where your tax dollars are going more for lawsuits than instruction.

creative thinker

January 1st, 2011
10:57 pm

how about they took a long hard look at consolidation and incorporate specialty programs into existing schools. this would eliminate millions of expenditures from duplication of administrative staff. then they could eliminate millions more by not providing the optional transportation for magnet programs. if an employee is not doing his or her job then do what the private sector would do and enforce accountability of a job description. come on, there are many ways to look at the budget and start cuts without cutting more school staff.

another comment.

January 1st, 2011
11:03 pm

Someone better make sure that all bidders and RFP’s go through e-verify. Otherwise the contractors with really outsource these jobs to illegals. Why isn’t everyone pointing out, this is DeKalb someone at the top will be looking to line their pockets with a piece of the Contractor’s Overhead and Profit. There needs to be a requirement in all government outsourcing contracts that the new contractor provide health insurance and pension benefits that are equal, otherwise it will always look cheaper on paper to outsource. In the long run, the government gets stuck with the health insurance cost of the lowerer paid contractor workers who don’t have health insurance or a pension. They end up going to Grady or taking their kids to Children’s Healthcare, so who ends up paying? The taxpayer, at a much higher amount by having employees with no health insurance and pensions using emergency rooms. There will also be all the laid off employees drawing unemployment for the next 13 months or so, at a cost to all of the tax payers. So this is a stupid political idea.

Look at how the new Fulton County cities have seen the Contractor running the Cities has taken them to the cleaners. Their is also no employee loyalty as soon as the economy recovers, that is when the public sector salaries will once again pale to the private sector and loose employees at an all time high rate.

Concerned Grandparent

January 1st, 2011
11:31 pm

I am horrified that DeKalb wishes to cut custodians, the people who are the most in need of a job and make so little. I would be surprised if they made over $18,000 a year. If I were on the Board of Education, I would cut Central Office administrator (professional staff that rose up from principal ranks via cronyism or otherwise) costs by 50% by either firing some of these gluttons or halving their fat salaries (believe me, these jobs are GREAT whether they are being paid $100,000 or $50,000). Do NOT touch teachers or parapros, as these people are on the frontlines dealing with many at-risk children in DeKalb. These are the most crucial jobs, especially given our many at-risk kids here. Principals and APs should not be cut either, because the discipline and safety issues alone can(and should) eat up all their time. Here is one idea: if custodians retire, offer teachers these jobs on a part-time basis to supplement their teaching incomes. I know many teachers who would be willing to do these duties from 4-8 after school or weekends. That way, the system would save on benefits costs, and teachers could make another $5000 or so. OR, the kids could do it via a community service or other class, or the chronic disruptors could do it instead of sleeping in ISS.

Toto: speakin' the truth to power

January 2nd, 2011
1:11 am

Compulsory school attendance law run amok!
A cautionary tale…Help Domenic!
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=245685

catlady

January 2nd, 2011
8:40 am

“We strongly believe that the most important thing in a student’s education is the quality of the teacher in the classroom,”

Evidence of how much you can learn in 3 years in the classroom.

Ms. Downey, how about investigating the demographics of the school/classes in which Ms. Hanes taught, and anything else you can about her 3 long years in education in North Carolina.

Gina

January 2nd, 2011
9:21 am

Contracting out for cleaning services while the building is closed is okay, but daytime custodians should be school system employees. These staff members have access to all of the valuable equipment in the schools, interact regularly with students and other staff, receive and secure deliveries, are responsible for locking and unlocking the building, move furniture, move teachers’ items for classroom relocations, do minor repairs, identify problems and create work orders for the maintenance department, etc. etc. The head custodian acts as a building manager in many cases. Contracted custodians frequently have high turnover and limited English skills. School system labor has great flexibility as they are always subject to “other duties as assigned.” If custodians are not performing up to par, it is a management problem and the principal should be held accountable for it. That is not a good argument for outsourcing the whole function. If you contract out cleaning, which staff members will have to pick up all of the other duties that were being performed by the custodians?

Dekalbite@Concerned Grandparent

January 2nd, 2011
11:00 am

“Here is one idea: if custodians retire, offer teachers these jobs on a part-time basis to supplement their teaching incomes. I know many teachers who would be willing to do these duties from 4-8 after school or weekends.”

LOL. That’s a terrific way to attract high quality math, physics and chemistry teachers. Pay them low and tell them they can clean schools to make up the money. The 10 chemistry teachers a year that are certified in Georgia will really want to come to DeKalb with that job offer.

EdDawg

January 2nd, 2011
11:17 am

Fascinating link Toto. Is that for real?!

Principal

January 2nd, 2011
11:45 am

The school district custodians (the ones with the keys) were the ones stealing from the teachers and the classrooms. We have had zero theft in the year private custodians have taken over all the cleaning.

d

January 2nd, 2011
12:01 pm

Well, I guess it doesn’t matter. There won’t be any teachers left in DeKalb after the RTTT requirements prevent us from being recertified.

common sense

January 2nd, 2011
1:16 pm

First and far most, Dekalb needs to be totally aware where every cent is used in their system. Why pay the salaries of two supt., at one time? Based on Tyson pending contract(if approved), she will continue to be paid the same amount upon hiring a new supt., until the end of her contract afterwhich, her salary will return to her normal pay before the increase. Why not re-word her new contract properly to stipulate once a new hire supt., is put in place, her pay will steadily decrease immediately as her advisory role decreases? Secondly, there are way too many secretaries getting enormous pay for little work. Third, there are too many administrators who, in the good ole boy network, pay scale were maxed out just because they could and knew in time the cuts were coming so they helped themselves out by sticking their fingers into the very bottom of the pot resulting in maxed pay outs.. Fourth, why are the landscapers at Fernbank Science Center cleaning and landscaping at Fernbank Musuem? The Musuem has no affiliation with the school system. These are two separate entities. Does the Musuem pay for their services provided by the Science Center staff? Why has this been allowed for years? What happened to all of the new office furniture that was originally brought to the Mountain Industrial site that was removed by Pat Pope? What happened to all of the office furniture and equipment left at the N. Decatur Rd., complex?It is understood that every thing is still locked up in the complex..Why? Abundant waste is still occurring in DCSS and only a few areas have been accountable but not all. How can job performance be rated fairly when so many people and positions are interconnected? There is nothing fair about DCSS, because those in charge are so very crooked. Cleaning, repairing and cutting MUST began at the top in order to be effective. Otherwise, nothing will make any sense.

common sense

January 2nd, 2011
1:24 pm

Dekalb School System slogan is the school cannot live apart from the community. If this is to be believed, most of the positions to be outsourced are community members. Let’s hope the outsurcing positions will employ a good number of the already employed custodians. If not, the school will certainly live apart from the whole entire institution.

TopSchool

January 2nd, 2011
2:00 pm

Maybe they can move all these salaries into different accounts and hire some family members…

http://www.youtube.com/user/TopSchoolAtlanta#p/u/38/tHyr95P7JF0

“Reorganization Money” Diverted to Principal’s daughter on Atlanta Public School’s PAYROLL

Principal hires immediate family members to benefit from the additional money she has acquired as a result of “thinking out of the box”. ( another play on Reich’s Rhetoric..Reorganization Plan, AKA-3 Year Plan, Miscellaneous Pay, One Time Payment Form… Too many names to juggle all the accounts you can make with all this money!)

http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com

Teacher for Life

January 2nd, 2011
3:42 pm

So 50% of our evaluations will now be linked to students test scores…it figures. I guess education and teachers are the easiest targets for the publicans. Lots of Demon-crats in the classrooms…can’t let those prissy liberals control our kids. We got to put them in their place.
Here’s the plan…get them so caught in fighting each other for the best kids and ratting on each other that they don’t notice their loss of decent benefits. Also, get rid of all those janitors and bus drivers. Poor people don’t deserve govenment healthcare and vacation pay. Get in them contract workers with the fake id’s; you know the ones that work for cash.
And when no one wants to teach anymo, don’t you worry. We can get them people overseas to work. Just like with the RN’s. Save us some money.

Student achievement? This ain’t about student achievement.

by the way

January 2nd, 2011
4:25 pm

Where does the interest that accrued on the recent furlough reimbursement given back to the DCSS employees. Who gets that money? Shouldn’t it too be equally distributed to the same people? This is the right thing to do…. However, we are dealing with unscrupulous administrators who in the name of $$$ steals and take at every opportunity. AGAIN,NO ACCOUNTABILITY!

by the way

January 2nd, 2011
4:41 pm

Too many people paid under various and phoney job titles. Check out
openga.gov and question what these titles are and why so many are paid under” instructional other” yet many have no certification whatsoever. This matter should have been taken care of in the last layoff. This is why whatever measure the system is using does not work. Why does Fernbank Science Center have so many “maintenance” classified positions within it’s facility. Seems like a design has been put in place in order to make those schools that the administrators would like to close will and has been made to look like low enrollment meant to make certain these schools will indeed close. Removing teachers and keeping enrollment under par will definitely close a door!

tellthetruth

January 2nd, 2011
5:38 pm

I just don’t understand how anyone can believe for one second that cutting/outsourcing these 700 positions will put any money into the classrooms or improve the level of education the students will receive.

What is the going rate for a failing leader that’s making over $100,000 a year with no proven track record of success…not one of them has a productive level of success..why are parents and teachers allowing Tyson to snow everyone with this easy decision and not make her tow the line with the sorry bunch who she is surrounded with daily and not doing a darn thing to help in student success.

No one really wants to lose his/her job. But you know what, it’s going to happen and sadly it will happen to a teacher, custodian, printer, painter, or a paraprofessional before it will happen to a Central Office employee believe that.

You proud parents should be urging the BOE and Tyson to cut that central office staff at the top and only at the top..there is no one competing for those jobs. The Central Office jobs should be outsourced.
Leaders who have not produced enough successful results from the underperforming schools should have them removed. All of those Central Office positions should be listed accurately so that you, the tax paying public, can see where your money is being spent. It’s not in the clasroom. It hasn’t been since CLewis took the reigns and Tyson is continuing in his giant footsteps or should I say missteps…

Tyson had better watch where she places her feet because the rug may slip from under her when this trial begins…I think Pope is going to bring a lot of fire power to her defensive strategy and this will affect the cabinet and the BOE. Pope has the attitude that if I go down You all are going with me.

Dr. Craig Spinks /Augusta

January 2nd, 2011
6:09 pm

Maureen,

On 6/9/10 at 4:38 AM, you published on your blog a letter from a reader. Your reader’s first point involved the necessity of a forensic audit of the DCSS? Has such an audit been conducted recently? With a prospective $50M revenue shortfall, if a forensic audit of the DCSS has not been completed by a competent, disinterested, out-of-state auditing firm and its results disseminated to the people of DeKalb County, the members of the DCBOE should be sued by concerned parents and other taxpayers for misfeasance.

TopSchool

January 2nd, 2011
6:48 pm

and Maureen …Do you think the media helps to put their spin on all of this?
It appears that as long as the issues were dealing with the SOUTHSIDE Atlanta Public Schools…The Atlanta Journal was willing to peel back the layers of corruption…

Now, that it looks nasty on the NORTHSIDE of APS Atlanta…the media has spun these issues SO the real issues can be swept under the rug…

Oh My!…. I THINK I GET IT!

@Dr. Craig Spinks…I’ve tried to educate you on this topic…These are MOCK INVESTIGATIONS…I’ve been through several…They are designed to keep your head spinning…

http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com

RBN

January 2nd, 2011
6:59 pm

My school system privatized custodial services several years ago to save money. Our school is filthy. The custodial service can’t keep employees, even with 13% unemployment because of low pay and no benefits. The pride our custodian showed each day in keeping a very old schoolk neat and clean is long gone. How will they make a profit? Low pay and no benefits is the only way. Just a small part of the slide to the bottom taking place in our schools. I do munderstand why privatizing is a tempting path to take, but the results are not good for our schools. Lesser of two evils? Perhaps, but evil none the less.

Ernest

January 2nd, 2011
7:17 pm

@Dekalbite 11:00am, I thought the exact same thing as I read your post. Maybe that’s the way things were done long ago but today’s teachers has far too much on their plate to also add custodian to their responsibilities.

Dekalbite@Dr. Craig Spinks

January 2nd, 2011
7:35 pm

Below is a link to DeKalb Schools Watch regarding the 2004 Compensation and Classification audit that was paid for by DCSS taxpayers and conducted under Dr. Johnny Brown’s tenure by the independent consulting firm Ernst and Young. According to the AJC, the Ernst and Young consultant said that 2,500 non-teaching employees were being over paid by around $15,000,000 a year. Shortly after the consultant presented his findings, Dr. Brown was out and Dr. Lewis was in. He told the BOE that the consultants were not correct per the DCSS Human Resources employees – it was ONLY $2,000,000 a year in over payments, and he was not going to lower salaries (see BOE notes in this article). The BOE meeting with any minutes and attachments (i.e. the actual audit summary) disappeared from the BOE website. We know the meeting was held though because we can read the AJC article citing the meeting and the meeting date is referenced in other BOE minutes.

Lewis went on to add many more non-teaching positions while he cut teaching positions, so DCSS is so much worse off.

http://dekalbschoolwatch.blogspot.com/2010/04/how-much-have-non-teaching-salary.html

AJC article:
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=AT&p_theme=at&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&s_hidethis=no&p_field_label-0=Author&p_field_label-1=title&p_bool_label-1=AND&p_text_label-1=Study:%20DeKalb%20schools%20overpay%20workers&s_dispstring=headl

I have not read that Ms. Tyson has proposed a forensic audit nor has the BOE pushed her to do so. This should have been the first thing done. The audit that Johnny Brown had done was finished and presented to the BOE within 6 months. The decisions she is making now regarding the budget and personnel would have the necessary data.

If DCSS parents and the two new BOE members do push for an audit, they really need to ask that an independent auditor:
1. Compares the number of employees in departments and functional groups to other school systems in metro Atlanta
2. Compares the salaries of non-teaching and teaching personnel performing the same functions to other school systems in metro Atlanta as well as to businesses who employ personnel who perform these functions
3. Compares the Teacher Turnover rate in DCSS to comparable systems in the Atlanta metro area

Facts and data from outside auditors of the caliber of Ernst and Young (no one that has any connection to anyone in DCSS or the BOE) should drive the process. That’s the fiscally prudent and transparent way to look at all expense centers, particularly ones funded by taxpayers. Most businesses, state, and county offices (including the GSU audit for DeKalb County Commissioners) have been pursuing outside audits during this recession. Perhaps looking at the 2004 audit and its summary would shed some light on exactly what happened to the savings that are reported in the AJC article, alert taxpayers to what an audit is, how a professional audit should be conducted, and how the results and and actions subsequent to the audit are shared with the public.

At this time, DCSS BOE minutes are not being made public since July, 2010 for the first time since 2002. But that’s a whole other issue.

Georgia Teacher

January 2nd, 2011
7:50 pm

Sad though it may be on an individual basis, letting support staff go is a better choice than letting teachers go IF the system also tries to improve teaching quality. A bad teacher is not as valuable, perhaps, as a good custodian in helping a school be a place where students want to be. But overall, families make their choices about where to live based on the result of good teaching, not good custodian-ship. Often, though, I’ve noticed that the cleanest schools are also the most effective schools. Could it, perhaps, all come back to leadership? And just where is leadership in DCSS–please remind me?

ScienceTeacher671

January 2nd, 2011
9:17 pm

@catlady: According to her bio, Erin Hames spent three years teaching at Wakefield Middle School in Raleigh, NC (http://www.greatschools.org/cgi-bin/nc/other/2878#finance) before deciding that education was not her calling and enrolling in law school.

irisheyes

January 2nd, 2011
9:48 pm

Here’s the demographics for the entire school system that Ms. Hames taught for. I searched for a school by school breakdown, but I couldn’t find anything.
http://www.wcpss.net/demographics/

Here it is in a nutshell:
White – 49.5%
Black – 24.8%
Hispanic – 14.6%
F&R Lunch – 32.4%
LEP – 7.9%
ESL – 4.3%

ScienceTeacher671

January 2nd, 2011
10:39 pm

The demographics for Wakefield Middle School (according to the link I posted earlier) are
White – 66%
Black – 22%
Hispanic – 7%
Asian/Pacific Islander – 5%

Another site, http://www.schooldatadirect.org/?gclid=CMT-wfiKnaYCFYXu7QodHzv5aQ gives the demographics as 69.2% White, 17.3% Black, 5.7% Hispanic, 4.1% Asian/Pacific Islander, and 0.3% Native American/Alaskan Native. It says 15.1% of the students are disadvantaged.

The school report card is here:
http://www.ncreportcards.org/src/schDetails.jsp?pSchCode=594&pLEACode=920&pYear=2009-2010
The school appears to exceed district and statewide averages for test scores. Also has smaller class sizes than other schools in the district.

According to this site, it is one of the highest-rated middle schools in the state:
http://www.greatschools.org/north-carolina/raleigh/2878-Wakefield-Middle-School/

Dekalbite

January 3rd, 2011
12:15 pm

Why do we still have Fernbank Science Center which consumes $7,000,000 in the DCSS budget and teaches children one science lesson a year. Transporting 30+ children to a science center for the teacher to teach them for 1.5 to 2 hours once a year is not only ineffective from a science content aspect but it is an ecological nightmare to put thousands of buses on the road and spew pollutants into the air (is that oxymoronic for an ecology lesson?).

See the DeKalb School Watch for an article on the financial particulars:
http://dekalbschoolwatch.blogspot.com/2010/03/are-proposed-dcss-budget-cuts-going-to.html

creative thinker

January 3rd, 2011
3:26 pm

@ Dekalbite, agreed, but as with the magnet parents, the parents that are in that district will not go quietly to any changes to their system. Seems like the Fernbank issue was hotly debated last year. Dekalb has many obvious areas to review for ways to not only decrease expenditures but increase efficiency. Problem is = we don’t have leadership to make that happen from a comprehensive standpoint.

Bloodbike

January 5th, 2011
3:29 pm

Soon and very soon you this country is going to get what it is asking for. A teaching force lacking any real teachers. Do you actually believe that custodians are equal to teachers or administration level professionals? That they are needed more than the people who are trying to educate your children??? Sad, sad day in America.

Can’t wait until we reach the point where everyone who wanted to be a teacher take their talent to other professions and we have a teacher shortage. These things run in cycles.

DeKalb: Protecting teachers by outsourcing other jobs?

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DeKalb: Protecting teachers by outsourcing other jobs?

148 comments Add your comment

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