Teacher grades. Should they be made public?
Teachers in LA protested publication of effectiveness ratings based on student performance.
Should parents know how well their children’s teachers score on effectiveness scales?
Using its federal Race to the Top grant, Georgia will start grading teachers in part on how much “value” they have added to a student’s learning, based on progress reflected in test scores.
“For teacher effectiveness measure, 50 percent will be based on the academic growth of students,” said Erin Hames, chief of staff at the Georgia Department of Education and the coordinator of the state’s Race to the Top efforts.
But while parents will be able get the average teacher effectiveness scores for a school, they will not be privy to individual job ratings, says Hames.
At a meeting with Atlanta Journal-Constitution education reporters and editors last week, Hames; Brad Bryant, state school superintendent; Martha Reichrath, deputy state superintendent for standards, instruction and assessment; and Bob Swiggum, DOE chief information officer, presented an update on the reforms that Georgia will fund with its $400 million Race to the Top grant.
Twelve applicants, including Georgia, won grants this year. A key criterion to winning was adoption of policies to measure the effectiveness of individual teachers and leaders. But it is also the most controversial aspect of Race to the Top, the $4.35 billion federal incentive program designed to spur innovation by awarding grants to the states with the most progressive and well-developed plans to improve k-12 education.
Teacher evaluations that hinge on student test scores are so controversial that they are often kept confidential. The Los Angeles Times sparked a national uproar this summer when it used the California Public Records Act to obtain elementary school test data and then analyzed how effective teachers were at improving their students’ performance on standardized tests in math and reading.
The Times created a searchable database that allows parents to obtain information on specific teachers, setting off teacher protests in the streets and a furious debate on the fairness of releasing teacher ratings.
In justifying its analysis, the Times said in a statement, “The Los Angeles Unified School District has had the underlying data in hand for years but has not used them to inform parents — or teachers themselves — about how instructors are doing. The Times made the decision to release the information because it bears on the performance of public employees who provide an important service, and in the belief that parents and the public have a right to judge it for themselves.”
Urging his 40,000 outraged union members to boycott the Times, A.J. Duffy, president of United Teachers Los Angeles, said: “You’re leading people in a dangerous direction, making it seem like you can judge the quality of a teacher by … a test.”
A similar battle is under way in New York where the teachers union is challenging the decision by the New York public schools to release ratings for nearly 12,000 teachers based on student test scores.
New York uses a nuanced rating system that categorizes teachers “high,” “above average,” “average,” “below average” or “low” based on how their students fared on the state tests compared to other students with similar demographic characteristics.
The teachers union argues that the data is flawed and that the resulting negative labels and trumpeted news stories — “The 100 worst teachers in the Big Apple” — could haunt teachers forever.
In a Manhattan courtroom this month, United Federation of Teachers attorney Charles G. Moerdler told the judge: “The information has no critical basis other than to facilitate a libel. … Just because it’s a number, it doesn’t mean it’s suddenly objective.”
\But the attorney for media organizations who support a public airing of the data said New York’s open records law mandates release of the teacher information. In addition, the attorney said teachers work for the taxpayers of New York who deserve to know the quality of service they are getting for their money.
“People who are doing work at taxpayer expense recognize they have a diminished expectation of privacy with respect to their jobs” said attorney David Schulz in court.
Hames said that the DOE intends to use effectiveness data to help improve classroom instruction by identifying which teachers need help and in what areas.
Now, parents in Georgia receive little formal information about how teachers perform, relying on word of mouth to scope out the best teachers.
The Georgia DOE doesn’t intend to delve into the debate over whether parents deserve to see individual teacher data, says Hames, explaining that it will fall to the General Assembly to decide whether individual teacher ratings should be released to the public.
– By Maureen Downey for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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158 comments Add your comment
Stlee
December 20th, 2010
4:34 pm
I’ve read all these comments and as a parent, I fully believe in publishing these results. I read all the excuses on why not to publish but this is nothing that isn’t done in the “real world” of free enterprise business. Over the course of many years, the education system has not had to be accountable because the teacher’s union has protected bad teachers. Educating our children as well as every other government service needs to be held accountable and run efficiently. Why not have a grading system that rewards those who excel and those that do can command a higher performance pay. We as parents and tax payers pay the salaries and we have a right to know how effectively that money is being spent. Just like any other business, if you don’t cut the muster, you take the penalty.
No one said that a job is fair. My job in logistics and health care is constantly being bombarded with rules and regulations. We adapt and find ways to incorporate them and persevere. It’s time for everyone to quit living in a status quo scenario and treat your means to make a living as a business. It’s absurd to take a job working for a governmental agency and enjoy the benefits of it’s patrons and then complain when it asked for it’s employees to become responsible.
I read all the remarks and excuses about having to working late and can’t control parental aspects. Well, there aren’t anymore 9 to 5 jobs anymore. I don’t know many people that don’t bring their work home. Not only do I have to work at home, but the teachers at my kid’s schools send us notes telling us to finish their lessons with our kids. Like it’s our job to finish theirs. No books to explain the lesson or anything to give examples. Just an web page to go on and get questions or problems.
So the frustration from a lot of parents I talk to, at least in Forsyth County, is what are we getting for our tax dollars when we have to do their job for them.
teacher
December 20th, 2010
4:42 pm
I thought Hames and her stupid ideas were gone…..I guess she is waiting until they change the locks to the door. Her ‘bright’ ideas cost her a promising career. It is always funny how a former teacher for three whole years has such a great mastery of education. Please take Tom Wilson with you when you go.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming.
December 20th, 2010
5:34 pm
Stlee,
Only one problem… Children are not “products” and educating them is not a “business.” If you want schools to run like a “business” then give them the ability to toss out the substandard “materials” they are being asked to deal work with – the children who don’t speak English, or who have IQs under 80, or come without any intention of trying to learn and are only intent on disrupting the classroom. Allow them to “write up” underperforming students, and put unsupportive parents on probation. Allow them to “fire” student “workers” if they show up late to class too many times, or miss too many days of school, or refuse to “work”. (And before anyone tars and feathers me, I am using a metaphor here … I don’t think of any child as “substandard”, but businesses are given the option of the materials they use in their products and/or the workers they hire/fire.)
***
In my opinion, one of the biggest problems with education today is that we have too many people at the top who insist on trying to mold the “art” of education into a business model – who have business background and have spent no time in a classroom – thus we get paint by the numbers curriculum and standardized tests and lessons, which sap all the creativity out of teaching and treat children like clones.
Children thrive when their individual strengths are recognized, and their individual weaknesses supported. The more education gets buried under the “business” rhetoric, the more one-size fits-all the approach becomes, the less individuality is allowed, the more children get thrown under the bus.
A teacher “grading system” tied to pay will have results easily predictable to anyone who is actually in the trenches.
1. Cheating on standardized testing will skyrocket – so districts will have to start paying special proctors to give the tests. More money out of classrooms and into the pockets of test makers. (Follow the money behind a lot of these proposals.)
2. Schools from poorer districts will find it even harder to attract and keep decent teachers.
3. Education in general will find it hard to attract anyone! How may people want to apply for a job where your pay is determined by how well someone else (over who’s innate skills and motivation you have no control) decides to do on a standardized test?
4. Special education and gifted teachers will flee back to regular Ed. No one will want to teach anyone who cannot show “growth” – either at the top or the bottom.
5. Resentment will grow among teachers as they compare their scores to colleagues who got “better” students for the year, or who teach subjects like ART or PE which can’t be measured so easily on a standardized test.
6. Teachers will bail from high stakes grade levels – the ones with CRCT testing, or tougher curriculum transitions.
7. Teachers will stop sharing ideas and support. No one will want to collaborate and risk giving other teachers an edge that just might make you look worse in comparison.
8. There will be general confusion about pay scales. Teachers won’t be able to reply on a steady income as class make-up and ability could vary a great deal from year to year.
9. Parents will demand their children be placed with the better teachers, and will get angry when they can’t all be accommodated. There are too many other factors that go into balancing classroom student make-up.
This is just a sample.
I have no trust in the validity of standardized tests. I have seen students use bubble sheets to bubble pictures and gang signs, with absolutely no concern about their score. You are going to evaluate me based upon their scores? I have seen gifted students bomb tests because they were, “bored and didn’t want to bother reading the questions.” You are going to evaluate me based upon their scores? I have seen children who spent all night hiding under a bed due to neighborhood gun battles come to school and sleep through the tests. You are going to evaluate me based upon their scores? I have seen ADHD children who couldn’t sit still for the test bubble in all D’s just to get it done. You are going to evaluate me based upon their scores? I have had children who missed 50 days of school due to medical issues. You are going to evaluate me based upon their scores?
Really.
Dr. Craig Spinks /Augusta
December 20th, 2010
5:36 pm
Not only should parents know the effectiveness scores of the teachers who instruct their children, but parents should also know how well their kids’ reading, math and writing skills compare to those of their peers throughout the state, the nation AND the world.
sloboffthestreet
December 20th, 2010
5:38 pm
Really? Seriously? A quick update. The museum trip was great. Sorry I didn’t get out as quickly as you would have liked. If you could do as good of a job in the classroom as you can telling time and minding someone elses business the world would be a much better place. My forth grader was having trouble with his expanded form double digit multiplication. You know, what is 80 x 90. All those 0’s are confusing. Rationaled, The museum cost $75.00 a year per family. Quite the bargain. No my children have not been on a field trip this year. But the Horizon, {Teachers} kids have. If only my children were as smart as the Horizon, {Teachers} kids. They could also go on field trips. Our year is 175 days this year. We get 3 weeks off for the Christmas break. I’m sure they will all go back with a head full of what they learned before the break. That is also what I love about fall break. They just get in the habit of getting up early without a word and they have a week off. Oh, I understand. The hard working teachers are tired and need a week off. I already told you I will do a year and stand up next to any highly trained professional, and give me your weak and weary. I will make sure they meet the standard for the grade level. You may even see a smile on their faces at the end of the year asking when they get to come back. Let me know where and when, and if it is a success you move one of your friends out and me in for median pay with full benefits. People aren’t running from teaching, their running to it. It’s a dream job if you are the right person. Some people like kids, some don’t. I haven’t heard a peep about Charlotte Danielson???
Maureen Downey
December 20th, 2010
5:41 pm
@Teacher, For the sake on continuity on Race to the Top, I think there is an effort under way within DOE to keep Erin Hames involved in some capacity. Officially, she is out of her DOE job come Janury when Dr. Barge has his own people coming aboard.
But she is the most informed on the grant and the process, and it seems odd to me to get rid of the person who oversaw the process just when we won the grant.
Maureen
Tony
December 20th, 2010
5:45 pm
Stlee – I suppose your rating sheet is posted on your office door? I have yet to see a person in the business world post any kind of rating sheet. Doctors do not release their negative information. Lawyers and bankers don’t either. Please tell me where I can go to get the ratings of my banker, lawyer and doctor. Since they are in the real world and educators are just hiding behind excuses, I’m sure you’ll be able to point me in the right direction.
veteran teacher
December 20th, 2010
6:08 pm
@sloboffthestreet Sorry bud. You wold get beginning teacher’s pay just like the rest of us. Oh, and please do not teach your own children grammar and spelling. Allow your child’s teacher to do that.
@stlee The teacher does not want you to finish the teacher’s work. The teacher wants YOUR CHILD to finish the work not completed during class time or work your child needs additional practice to gain mastery. ALL education does not happen on the classroom. Get on board with us! (Talk about making excuses.) This is another PIAHMP.
veteran teacher
December 20th, 2010
6:09 pm
would
Cobb Teacher
December 20th, 2010
6:41 pm
Slob Off the Street: Do you have a full understanding of AR? It is not a “reading program” as you suggest. All the child does is read books and take tests to meet a goal set by the teacher. The questions are very basic and do not require the student to infer, predict, or analyze anything about the story. It is simply a reading practice program. It does not teach phonics, spelling, or any other reading concept.
Why are we not spending our breaks planning lessons? Because we have families and want to spend time with them in the same way you do.
catlady
December 20th, 2010
6:53 pm
Put mine up as soon as my students’, their parents’, the principal’s, school board members’, superintendent’s, state BOE members’, state superintendent’s, state legislators’, governor’s, and those at the federal level, including the federal legislators’ are available and widely published. I will be HAPPY to help devise the methods of evaluation.
Cobb Teacher
December 20th, 2010
7:29 pm
If they want to publish my test scores, great! I’m proud of them.
Echo
December 20th, 2010
7:33 pm
Some corrections are in order:
@Stlee – there are no unions in GA “protecting bad teachers”…there is no protection for ANY teachers.
@slob – we get 1.25 days per month, only 3 of which may be used as “personal days”. And you should apply for a job in any of the numerous title 1 schools in the area…you wouldn’t last a month. I have seen retired military men walk out of classrooms shaking their heads, never to return! Teachers spend far more of their “working” hours doing the parents job than parents spend doing ours.
TopPublicSchool
December 20th, 2010
7:54 pm
@ Dr. Craig Spinks /Augusta
December 20th, 2010
5:36 pm
Evaluate this…
http://www.youtube.com/user/TopSchoolAtlanta
Reich’s been given every TOP Award you can receive…
And so has Beverly Hall…
This youtube channel does not embarrass a sociopath.
They love it.
The real test that needs to be given is a complete psychological of every teacher and administrator employed. There are some crazies out there with a PHD.
TopPublicSchool
December 20th, 2010
7:57 pm
Maureen …I think it should be renamed….DISGRACE to the TOP…
You seem like you have a little hope left for a brighter day in education…
I think it is a long time a comin.
Hide and Watch what the governor does with APS.
TopPublicSchool
December 20th, 2010
7:59 pm
We are all watching… I hope he won’t disappoint us again.
http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com
Joe Schmoe
December 20th, 2010
8:05 pm
@ sloboffthestreet
“Nothing. As for you doing my job for 180 again extremely ARROGANT. Please explain why I have to do your job daily after my children have attended your classrooms??? Oh, I thought it was 175 this year. And aren’t there 12.5 sick days and 5 personal days associated with you very demanding job??? I’m just asking!! Get over yourself!! P.S. Everyday is a nice day!!”
As your everyday citizen here’s my observation.
If you give a carpenter crooked lumber he builds a crooked house, if you give a mason inferior bricks he builds and inferior wall, and if you give a teacher….. well you get the picture.
Happy Teacher
December 20th, 2010
8:15 pm
@joe – But what if you give solid lumber to a terrible carpenter?
TopPublicSchool
December 20th, 2010
8:28 pm
And if you are the TOP rated public school in Atlanta Georgia…
And this is your leader…
http://www.youtube.com/user/TopSchoolAtlanta
What do you think?
http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com
ScienceTeacher671
December 20th, 2010
9:49 pm
Can I publish the average IQ of my students, or the percentage who have been socially promoted even though they are reading and doing math well below grade level? Can I publish the number of students who don’t do their homework, or the percentage of missing assignments in each class? How about the average attendance? Maybe also some stats on the number of students who show up each day without something to write with, or paper to write on, or without bringing their textbooks? The number of students who were up past midnight for one reason or another?
Because all of these factors affect how students will ultimately perform on the EOCT, they are out of my control, and they vary from class to class.
Rationaled
December 20th, 2010
10:05 pm
@slob – as for the calendar issues you are bringing up, if you don’t like the long breaks, do something about it and confront your boe, as they are the ones that set the calendar for your school district, not the teachers. If your boe thought it was worthwhile to go year round, I’m sure they would look into it.
Can we give the RTTT money back? It seems to me that it is going to create a monster of a testing program and reporting initiative that will be here long after the money dries up. It’s a grant, right? So…once it’s gone, it’s gone. Give it back. Get rid of Arne. Get rid of all standardized testing in the state. If there is something we can’t afford right now, it’s the tests. It would be nice to actually be able to stretch out some time in my classroom when the kids need to review material, rather than trying to plow ahead and keep up with our “curriculum map”. Speaking of which, we have 5 weeks after CRCT…5…weeks. Sigh.
For the record. I love teaching. I love my job and I love my students. I do not, however, love being held to some arbitrary teaching standards based on the results of a test created by psychometricians to be analyzed as if the kids existed in some testing vacuum, away from any other external or internal stimuli. Kids are human beings and are not “products” that can pass an 18 point inspection and be deemed “valid”. They are human, they are all valid, with all of their imperfections and idiosyncrasies. The more we treat them as if they are products, which is what this testing culture is doing, the more we are destroying their souls. I can’t tell you how ashamed I feel each year when I have to deal with parent phone calls about children with ulcers, anxiety disorders, and insomnia related to ONE FREAKING TEST.
It’s as if a CRCT/EOCT has all of the sudden become the bar exam or medical boards. It is absolutely ridiculous and it needs to stop. Teachers should be fostering an environment of learning, of loving to read, of taking chances and never fearing failure. Instead, we are about to tell them that because the feds want to hand us some more money, they will have to take MORE tests. And now, if they don’t do a good job, it won’t just be that they don’t go to the next grade, but their teacher will also lose their job, their house, and their car.
YAY, STRESS FOR ALL! Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
Career Switcher
December 21st, 2010
12:28 am
As I have previously stated on this blog, I teach middle school math, and I choose to work with students who have average/below average CRCT scores. This year and in previous years, many of my students come from supportive homes. Others don’t. Over the last several years, I have had pregnant students, children dealing with the imprisonment or death of a parent, students in foster care or who move around every other month, students on drugs or probation. Less than half of my students in any given year come from homes with one or two involved parents. While I do try my best to motivate and reach my students, I am not always successful. No one is.
Why then, when the parents, mentors, doctors, social workers, case managers, and sometimes judges and probation officers haven’t been successful with these children am I to be held solely accountable? They are trained for intervention, I am trained to teach equations! Again, this is a group of students that I choose to work with and have had some successes with, but some things are bigger than me!
And, I continue to read with amazement those on this blog who either place the entire burden of student achievement on either the teacher or the parent. Most children will not reach their potential if they don’t have both a supportive home and a good teacher/learning environment. For those of you who continually repeat that teachers are whiners for saying that some things are not in our control…you really do have your head in the clouds. My children have attended schools like the ones your children probably attend…low levels of FRL and high levels of parental support. The kinds of schools where you have to fight to get a good parking spot at a PTA meeting or other school event. The schools that I have worked in typically have more teachers than parents to show up for such events, and occasionally we don’t have a single parent show up. I have seen both sides, and unless you can fathom what some of us deal with, you should not pass judgment on those of us who do deal with such circumstances. Rest assured, if you are working with your child at home, it isn’t you that we are referring to when we say we are concerned with score reports.
Furthermore, to the parent who states that the teacher isn’t doing her job and that he must reinforce or re-teach at home…you need to know that sometimes our hands are tied. If your 8th graders come to me and can’t add, subtract, multiply, or divide, I can’t back those students up and teach them what they need to know because Georgia now says that all students must learn the same math at the same time whether they are ready or not (even the ones with severe LD). I can’t give the students who require higher levels of repetition and practice what they need, because heaven help if I am caught doing any “drill and kill” or worksheets. If your child is one of the ones who really struggle with math, I am still expected to give them open ended discovery tasks on a regular basis so that they may develop their “higher order thinking skills” (even if they have not yet developed the lower ones). If your child is one of the ones who learns math more easily, rest assured, they will be helping the lower students who do not understand or will be working pretty much on an independent basis while I focus on the struggling students. These are models that we are forced to use, and we frequently have walk-throughs to ensure that we are using them. I sneak in things when and where I can, but if I am ever observed doing so by admin. or central office, that will quickly come to an end.
That said, I would be more than happy for my GROWTH scores to be published, IF the following were included in a comprehensive report:
1. The socio-economic make-up of the group (because we all know that SES status is the great predictor of test scores)
2. The number of students who receive (or have received) special ed., ESOL, or EIP services, and those who have ever been RTI’d, retained or socially promoted (accurately comparing one classroom to another cannot be done without these numbers)
3. The results of some type of survey where I am allowed to score/rank overall parental involvement, administrative support (for both academics and discipline), level of preparedness of my students, etc. (Some would say that teachers with poor test scores might skew the survey results purposefully, but I believe there would be trends noticed from one school/grade to another)
If I am to be scored and ranked, it is only fair to level the playing field by reporting facts that will assist stakeholders in making accurate comparisons from one teacher to the next.
sadly, i do believe in publishing teacher effectiveness scores
December 21st, 2010
8:40 am
@rationaled (and others) it would be wonderful if all the students wanted to be in band. i would say that out of the 205 students in band (not including the 43 in general music classes) roughly half want to be there. another 20-30% are in band because they have friends in the class; the rest are made to stay in by their parents. i have no argument for any teacher who believes my subject is not relevant because i don’t have a high-stakes test – although the 5+ public concerts i give every year are stressful enough – but i do think the request that i grade other subject areas’ tests is silly. i do plenty during my before and after school programs (again, not always with students who “want to be there”) and mixed ability classes (gifted thru self-contained EBD). teaching to the test? ABSOLUTELY! i know what the expectation is and i believe the assessment is an accurate measure of what students should know and do; why wouldn’t i teach to the test? is there a teacher who doesn’t align their instruction with testing materials? maybe we should all “teach to the test” for a while and see if student achievement results can silence the roar of public scrutiny. then again, i’m only a band teacher, so what do i know…
Happy Teacher
December 21st, 2010
9:07 am
@CS – all the reasons you give for the scores of your students are valid. No one could dispute that. But, there are plenty of teachers who are able to make substantive, consistent gains no matter the hand they’re dealt. Shouldn’t parents know who those teachers are so that they can make the best possible choice for their children’s education?
Cobb History Teacher
December 21st, 2010
9:15 am
Having read the comments here I’ve made the following observations.
1. Some teachers here are merely expressing concern about using test scores as a measure of teacher effectiveness without balance, student interest, IQ, retention, social promotion, etc. 2. Some teachers believe they can work miracles (and I do believe some can). 3. Some parents are very supportive. 4. Some parents think teachers are to blame for everything from the calendar, to the curriculum, to the capability of their child. 5. The solution to this problem is cooperation on all parts teachers need to do their best with all students, and parents need to understand we don’t deal with just their child and that children come from all types of backgrounds, some value education and work hard, and some don’t some have financial resources and some don’t.
I teach middle school and have a middle school student myself. I know my sons teachers do the best with the resources they have at their disposal. Two years ago when my son began struggling in math I did what any responsible parent would do; I got him help. I didn’t blame the system. I started by helping at home at night and when the math became even more complex I began taking him to Mathnasium. I didn’t sit and play the blame game I did something. I realized first and foremost that my son was not the teachers only student, I also realized that my son had issues with math and that at times he was off task and try hard enough. Sure I could have blamed the system for adopting a curriculum that was too difficult; I could have blamed the teacher for not working hard enough or being incompetent, and I could have blamed my son for not focusing and working hard enough, but I didn’t I sought help. Is he a mathematical genius today? No, but he is doing much better than if I had just sat back and played the blame game.
Happy Teacher
December 21st, 2010
9:39 am
Great points CHT. Your son is lucky to have such a strong advocate. What should we do about students that have no one advocating for them? I think that is the question we need to answer to improve the current state of education.
TopPublicSchool
December 21st, 2010
10:30 am
All that glitters is not gold…
If you call a quality education …making enough money to buy your way out of everything.
If you consider this SUCCESS… keep looking at the neighbor’s mansion and feeling like you can’t compete.
The drive for learning comes from within.
Teach your child Honesty, Integrity and Ethics. If they don’t have these qualities as a human being …any amount of formal education is a waste of time.
Look at the adult population right now. The mentality—take all you can get…at any cost to others—know that you are doing something wrong—tell everyone to prove it—show no guilt—walk away with the money in your pocket and smile on your face. It does not take much to teach this.
Protect your family from the ELITE and the over educated…they are mostly corrupt.
Look for ‘REAL HUMAN QUALITIES IN TEACHERS”
http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/TopSchoolAtlanta
HS Math Teacher
December 21st, 2010
10:52 am
I like what you wrote, Cobb History Teacher. I will have to say that for the most part, my kids’ Parents are just as reasonable as you are. I am blessed in that regard.
Rationaled
December 21st, 2010
10:54 am
@ sadly – congrats on having kids that stay after school in your program, whether their parents make them or not…it’s more than what we see at my school. About 1% of our student population stays after school (if that) on a weekly basis for academic reasons. 1%.
As far as your subject area’s validity, it is extremely valid and treasured within my heart. I was in both band and chorus growing up and I have a special bond with the music program in our school. However, I find it funny when people who are not tasked with the same accountability as academic content teachers say “bring it on” as if they have any idea what stresses and/or issues we face.
You can’t know, just as I can’t know what it is to take 100+ kids alone with loud, often off-key, instruments at once. You don’t hear me screaming for your accountability, making sure that you are taking children who “can’t (or won’t) do”and turning them into future members of the ASO.
Hear me: your program is valid, important, and necessary, sometimes more so than the academic courses that are forced upon students. More tests, however, do not fix anything, and certainly not the effectiveness of teachers.
@Happy Teacher – what good is it going to do you to know about the “effectiveness” of your child’s teachers? You don’t make the schedule of classes for your child’s school. Even if you moved into Miracle, Georgia (pop. 0), you might not get the school with those highly effective teachers! It certainly gives parents “ammo” against their child’s current teacher should their precious snowflake ever make a mistake or miss a question on a test though. Certainly it’s not their child’s fault, but it MUST be because the teacher is 0.654% less effective than the one next door or down the street!
Stlee
December 21st, 2010
11:03 am
Tony- you bet your rear end it is and has been for 20 years since I graduated and entered the real world. Production reports rated by every superintendent, project manager, area manager and regional manager. My accounting dept is rated on their budget reports. Customer surveys dictate our quality report. Every week mind you, not once a year. We monitor our performance “live” so we can make adjustments on the fly. My personal report is posted quarterly. It’s called a stockholders report. You know that thing called Dow Jones and NASDAQ, guess what, that’s a report. If we don’t perform, we lose money.
Echo- Get your head out of the sand! Show me another job in the private sector where a worker is safe from dismissal just because he has TENURE! Read the following…
According to the Sept. 21 Investors Business Daily, estimates of the number of incompetent teachers range from a low of 5% to as many as 18% of the 2.6 million total, or between 135,000 and 468,000 bad teachers. Last spring, prospective teachers in Massachusetts made headlines when 59% failed a basic skills test (See Education Reporter, Sept. 1998). Teacher testing produced similar results in Nevada.
( I haven’t heard of 135,000-468,000 teachers being fired )
Kansas state Rep. Kay O’Connor, who heads the Kansas City-based organization, Parents In Control, says tenure is an issue state legislatures don’t want to touch. Quoted in Investors Business Daily, O’Connor says: “Tenure is a very hot issue. If a legislator brings it up, it’s a battle royal. Unless you’re molesting children or robbing banks, you can’t be fired.” She adds that allowing poor teachers to remain in the classroom means more remedial teachers will be needed, which puts more dues money in union coffers.
Look, bottom line, we as parents and tax payers know you have a job to do. All anyone wants who pays for a service is accountability. I hear all the excuses on why you can’t do this and that. My suggestion is listen to the masses and figure out a way to make it work. It’s not going away. By screaming “it’s not fair” makes it sound like you’re trying to hide from responsibility. I agree that the administration should be graded as well. And the kids. If a kid doesn’t perform, flunk him. I never hear of a kid being held back anymore. Work towards a plan that does work and show that you aren’t afraid to be graded. All the excuses I’ve read could be manipulated by the students as reasons they shouldn’t take standardized tests but they still have to.
Career Switcher
December 21st, 2010
11:15 am
@Happy Teacher…
I have made strong gains with many of these students. BUT, show me a teacher who can make substantial and consistent gains with EVERY ONE of those students EVERY YEAR, because I would love to know what they are doing! Make sure that the teacher’s class is made up of 50-60% of those types of students, and not just 2-3 of them! In any given year, if there are even 5 or 10 that I can’t reach, then are we saying that I have failed at my job? When I have done nothing different this year than I did last year (when my balance of students might have been more favorable)? When I volunteered to work with these students instead of taking the honors, accelerated, upper average and gifted students? Show me a class in the state of Georgia with a makeup similar to this with a 100% pass rate on the 6th or 8th grade CRCT (make sure they didn’t cheat first, please!).
It is ridiculous to think that you can compare one teacher to another without factoring in all of the things that I listed in my last post. Otherwise, you will have a sharp reduction in the numbers of teachers who are willing to take on classes such as the ones I teach. If teacher results are to be published (and pay is to eventually be tied to performance), you will see one of two things happen. First, new and inexperienced teachers will be given the classes that they are least prepared to teach. If you are the parent of a child in special ed. (as I am), this should concern you. Second, instead of giving all of these students to the teachers most qualified to teach them, they will be divided up among all teachers. Again, if you have ever worked in education or have a struggling/SPED child, you know that some people have absolutely no business teaching students with disabilities. There are still teachers out there who think that students with Asperger’s just need to learn how to behave and that a child with severe ADD just needs to get organized and pay attention. Wait until even higher numbers of SWD are foisted on these folks! To use the previous poster’s lumber analogy, reporting scores without other information would be like giving every teacher in Georgia a different load of lumber. Some teachers will get a full truckload of boards with little or no imperfections, and some will get a truckload of lumber in which nearly every piece doesn’t meet quality control standards. Of course there will be every combination in between. And, some teachers will be provided all of the necessary tools and management support needed to work with their lumber, while others will be forced to go out and buy their own hammer and nails and will be on their own. Some teachers will have to spend tons of extra hours shaping the boards into a usable form, while the teacher with the load of good boards gets to walk in and start buliding. At the end, we will measure output. Of course, now, we are only concerned with the final product, and will pretend that it didn’t matter that everyone received different raw materials! Absurd, and no one in the business world would stand for it, either.
Rationaled
December 21st, 2010
11:18 am
@Stlee – talk about get your head out of the sand…teachers in Georgia don’t have tenure, we have fair dismissal rights. After 3 years of “successful” teaching, we get fair dismissal rights so we can’t be removed for…disagreeing with the principal on how to deal with a discipline issue, for example.
Too many people use this excuse as if you can’t get rid of teachers. If that is what you are mad at, point the finger at ineffective administration. There are steps they can take to get rid of teachers, and it’s actually not all that hard.
I’m glad people are still trying to equate education with business, it shows their complete lack of understanding of how to run a school and/or how to deal with the human condition.
Congratulations on being able to work on the “fly”…I’ve never heard of teachers EVER changing their daily plans to deal with students who might not get it…EVER!
(sarcasm…)
Stlee
December 21st, 2010
11:20 am
Tony- to further help you out buddy, your lawyer- Georgia State Bar Association. Your doctor- Georgia State Medical Board. Your bank- Georgia Department of Banking and Finance. Even that fast food restaurant you go to, look at the certificate behind the cashier with the number on it- it’s a test score! The majority of private businesses have boards or associations that rate their performance. The ones that don’t can be analyzed by the fact that if they don’t perform, they close!
Rationaled
December 21st, 2010
11:33 am
Stlee – i’ve passed all of my certifications tests as well. thanks. the state already feels I am competent to teach…and all of those certifications, they can be taken away, just like teacher certifications. It’s not as if you just made some grand causal relationship about between taking a test and being effective…did you? I mean…there are plenty of doctors out there who have passed their boards (and I’m not sure what they scored…) that are awful doctors. Yet you still aren’t quite getting it. My doctor doesn’t get downgraded on their boards because I choose not to follow his advice or to take the medicine he prescribed…likewise my lawyer doesnt get disbarred if I don’t follow his advice and plead differently than what he suggests…nice try
Echo
December 21st, 2010
11:47 am
@Stlee, someone else already responded about the “tenure” and “union” issue you brought up. Consider yourself informed, can’t plead ignorance… now it would be just plain stupid for you to claim that teachers are any more protected than workers in private industry.
Those entities you listed (Bar assoc., Med Board, etc) just keep records of degrees earned, major complaints, and disciplinary actions taken; none of them tell you anything about the actual performance of Dr’s, lawyers, etc. You can get more information about a teacher from going to the board and pulling an open records request.
Fast food restaurants have their health department inspection; however, it isn’t a rating on individual employees. I can’t walk in and see a cashier has a 74% “rating” and the cashier next register over has an 86%. Your examples are not helping you make a point, just showing how little you know about what teachers do for a living.
Stlee
December 21st, 2010
11:48 am
Rationaled read my post, I said the administration should be held accountable as well. Again you have a provision that is not found in the real world of accountability.
I deal with the human condition every day. I have over 1400 employees and a large percentage of them are Latino so those using the language barrier and social handicaps need not use that excuse as well. I’ve even set up free clinics to help those families that couldn’t get their medical needs attended to. Those citing having to use substandard criteria or measures dictated by the states and federal mandates, I deal with that as well. My industry in logistics and health care is the most regulated in the nation next to nuclear energy.
My family has been involved with several charter schools in North Carolina and we developed performance measures and all have been successful with a 98% graduation rate.
I do view education as a business because that’s what we’re investing our future in. That kid in your classroom will some day be an effective “asset” in the working world. He/she will be expected to go out and “produce” for himself/herself as well as create a tax base that pays for the same education system that provided for his/her education. The disturbing part about the national education system is that we’re losing our edge on a global scale. The U.S. doesn’t even rank in the top 10…
Rank Country Education Index
1= Australia ▬ 0.993
1= Denmark ▬ 0.993
1= Finland ▬ 0.993
1= New Zealand ▬ 0.993
5 Canada ▬ 0.991
6 Norway ▼ 0.989
7 South Korea ▲ 0.988
8= Ireland ▼ 0.985
8= Netherlands ▼ 0.985
10= Greece ▲ 0.980
10= Iceland ▲ 0.980
12 France ▲ 0.978
13 Cuba ▲ 0.976
14 Luxembourg ▲ 0.975
15= Belgium ▲ 0.974
15= Sweden ▲ 0.974
17 Spain ▼ 0.971
18 Slovenia ▼ 0.969
19= Lithuania ▲ 0.968
19= United States ▼ 0.968
21 Kazakhstan ▼ 0.966
22 Italy ▲ 0.965
23 Estonia ▼ 0.964
24 Austria ▼ 0.962
Rationaled
December 21st, 2010
12:04 pm
Hey look, I can copy and paste stuff too!
“They have high entrance requirements and cater to a much larger area. Entrance to selective schools is often highly competitive.” That was a quote discussing “public” education in Australia…the TOP of your list. That’s right, the best gov’t schools have ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS….
nice try, again…
Stlee
December 21st, 2010
12:11 pm
Echo- you’re right, I don’t know what it’s like to be a teacher. Although my wife’s an administrator and I coached middle school football for 7 years, I probably have a greater insight than most. You’re also right on the individual grading of employees but they don’t have a grievance board they can go to debate the stance on their poor performance.
But here’s the bottom line. When you choose your service administrator. You have a choice. If you don’t like your bank, lawyer, doctor, restaurant, cable provider, dry cleaner or phone service, you can switch. You’re not captive to stick it out. Students are.
Look, it’s been fun discussing these issues and the major factor is the system is deficient and I hope you guys can fix it because it will benefit all involved. Work through your Union to find a compromise. I’ve got to catch a flight so I can pay the gov’t 50% of my salary to fund the 19th best education system.
Stlee
December 21st, 2010
12:29 pm
Rationaled- I didn’t write the rules, I just live in them. What about the the other 18. I’ll give you Australia. So we’re number 18. Feel better? Institute entrance exams, that’s a great idea. I thought that’s what end of the year exams were for. Entrance into the next grade. I said previously to hold everyone accountable!
In order for us to compete in the future global market, we have to raise standards. What got you here won’t get you there. Like I said, the fact that we want to know who is performing will not go away. Figure out a way through your Union to make it fair. Apparently you have a fair dismissal policy, so even if it make your administrators mad, you won’t be fired.
northatlantateacher
December 21st, 2010
12:34 pm
Stlee:
Why all the vitrol? It’s really disheartening to see this from a former teacher whose wife works in a school system.
1. There is no union in Georgia. Surely you know this?
2. Teachers are fired routinely for lack of performance. There were three fired from my school last year.
3. I’m not arguing that the system we have is broken. It is. How I wish we had a system like that in some European countries! It would be WONDERFUL if tracking based on abilities returned. If we had more options for students in high school other than the college track. If we could have realistic discussions about what the jobs of the schools are versus the responsibilities of the communties. If half the amount of money and time spent on special ed services was spent on the general ed population. I could go on…
My point is there is no need to be openly hostile. I don’t know your children’s teachers, but it is likely they assign all of that work for you to do at home with your child to increase those standardized test scores. I would expect much more of that if our scores are published.
Look – I would love it if there was a way to accurately assign a number of effectiveness to a teacher. There is no such thing…and what our education system needs is so very much more complicated than teacher grading.
northatlantateacher
December 21st, 2010
12:42 pm
Stlee:
Just read more of your comments…your misunderstanding of public school is staggering considering your wife works in one…RARELY are children retained based on CRCT scores. In high school kids can fail the EOCT (which almost never happens – it’s very heavily curved so most students outside of metro ATL can pass it – whole separate issue for another day) but pass the course and continue on.
And making admins mad should have nothing to do with getting fired – it should be about job performance. Like I said earlier, three teachers in just my school were fired last year. It was because they did a poor job, not because they made anyone “mad”. Fair dismissal just means you have to provide a reason; it doesn’t mean you can’t fire someone.
Rationaled
December 21st, 2010
1:25 pm
Look, I WANT accountability for teachers. I HATE teaching in the same school as teachers who sit on their tush, playing with their iPhone, passing out worksheets, while some of us are working as hard as we can to bring some of these kids along and move them forward before they graduate.
I’m not against teacher accountability…I AM against an arbitrary test created by people who have no knowledge of public education. Business is easy apparently…you can just look at the bottom line and go from there…what you, and others on this blog, have failed to grasp is that the bottom line in education is not some static monetary point. It’s not, and should not, be a quantitative measure of a child’s worth in society.
This is just another example of how some people want to create another target at which schools can throw money…another test. Instead of using what has been proven as effective time and time again (lowering class sizes to 12-20 students)…what? does that matter?
Taking your list above…just look at Greece, Luxembourg, and Norway (from 2003 data) – 9-10 pupils:teacher ratio…So even if the kids were “9th” graders by the time your data was collected from your listed Ed Index, they clearly had some benefit from having a small group of students in one class…but of course, I’m generalizing…
You want more? Secondary education in Finland, another one above us up there, is VOLUNTARY…in Sweden, only 63% of the population continues education after 9th grade…and we outnumber them in the percentage of adults with post secondary degrees….
So, what is YOUR measure of effective education Stlee? Creating workers? It’s funny that you think we will EVER compete in the global market when the policy makers and CEO’s want to keep costs down…you think educated workers want to work for a few pennies an hour?
I’m astonished at lack of understanding of public schools in this state (not really) that people perpetuate on this blog.
Hey Maureen – I think its time that you do a myth busting post about teachers in Georgia and how our unions are so incredibly strong that none of us are ever going to lose our jobs!
Cobb Teacher
December 21st, 2010
1:36 pm
North Atlanta Teacher: I’m afraid you have a misunderstanding as well. I’m glad you have a fair administrator and that you have confidence in the dismissal process. Not every teacher is as fortunate as you.
I now teach in a great school with a wonderful administration. This has not always been the case. I left another Cobb school four years ago after seeing a number of good teachers literally harrassed by mentally unstable principal. There was nothing wrong with their teaching, attendance, or grading practices. For some unknown reason, they found themselves on the wrong side of this principal and she made every moment in that school miserable. I was pregnant at the time and it was a very difficult experience. It was an at risk school and not growing at all under her leadership. She thankfully retired last year.
THAT is why we have a fair dismissal process.
Cobb History Teacher
December 21st, 2010
2:34 pm
@Happy Teacher
“Great points CHT. Your son is lucky to have such a strong advocate. What should we do about students that have no one advocating for them? I think that is the question we need to answer to improve the current state of education.”
I agree that is a problem, and what to do about it is difficult. I think for starters the public needs to realize that for too long parents have abdicated many roles to school systems, sex ed, breakfast, ASP care etc. Schools were designed to teach but now do so much more which is both a strain on finances and resources. I also believe that just like the best doctors we can’t save everyone. The problem is that average adult knows that even the best doctors lose patients and we concede that they are only human, however we hold educators to a higher standard: everyone must survive.
In fact the doctor patient relationship is a great metaphor for teaching. If a patient goes to the doctor with a condition the doctor diagnosis it, prescribes a treatment regime, and then the patient goes to the drug store gets their prescription filled, takes their medicine and hopefully recovers fully. Now if the patient fails to get the prescription filled, or fails to take the medicine either because they forget or it tastes bad if they get worse or die do we blame the physician?
In education patients (students) come to us we diagnose their condition (lack of education or experience) we then prescribe treatment which we administer our selves this and may not include home work. However if a student doesn’t take to this prescription / treatment regime we always blame the teacher first.
I’ve also noticed when students do well we are often quick to say how smart they are not what good teachers they have, where as if a student fails we tend to blame the teacher first rather than a students lack of ability or lack of trying.
TopSchool
December 21st, 2010
2:48 pm
@Cobb Teacher—Atlanta Public Schools does not have anything fair in the process of Due Process.
They make up the process during the process and will do “ANYTHING” in their attempts to COVER-UP the process.
APS is a disgrace to ALL Public Education Systems in the NATION.
Their acts are criminal…
http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com
There are statistics and there then there are statistics
December 21st, 2010
3:48 pm
Had a student that didn’t who scored extremely low on the Pre-test for the semester. Did not pass a single test all semester long; same with HW and classwork. Made a 95 on the Final Exam (I believe that she cheated but can’t prove it).
Based on the beginning and ending test scores I am a stellar teacher. But I know that when this student takes the GHSGT she will fail it and not graduate. Is this Valued-Added Education? Did any learning take place?
There are statistics and there then there are statistics
December 21st, 2010
3:49 pm
Sorry for the typos.
northatlantateacher
December 21st, 2010
4:14 pm
Cobb Teacher:
I’ve worked for supervisors like that as well; both in teaching and in the “real world” (don’t you love that?). It’s ugly, but you encounter crazy bosses in any line of work. My point was that stlee made the point that it’s impossible to fire bad teachers and who gets fired is arbitrary – based on what teacher makes which admin mad. That’s not true in most cases.
northatlantateacher
December 21st, 2010
4:21 pm
Great points, Cobb History Teacher. And I second the call for a post about the basics of how public education is run in this state. It’s astonishing how many people are completely misinformed. It’s very difficult to have an intelligent debate with someone who believes we have teacher unions and only work 190 days a year.
uga admissions requirements
December 22nd, 2010
1:52 pm
[...] Teacher grades. Should they be made public? – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) Should parents know how well their childrenâ??s teachers score on effectiveness scales? Using its federal Race to the Top grant, Georgia will start grading teachers in part on how much â??valueâ? they have added to a studentâ??s learning, based on … Dec 20, 2010 11:09pm [...]