White flight: Are parents running to less successful schools?

This assertion doesn’t even make sense…the average SAT scores for many suburban schools are 1500 to 1700. I would guess that the white sub group makes up the majority of these high scores. However, when you compare subgroup to subgroup in urban vs. suburban schools, there is not that much of a difference. Let’s focus on the real issue of the effects of poverty on education, not trying to convince white families to stay urban.

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SAT scores means nothing, Yea they passed a test, but can they think and reason something our schools do not teach anymore. Running to less successful schools? The state of Georgia ranks 48th or 49th out of 50, give me a break. Then you have to throw the race card in, who cares where white people or matter of fact anyone lives?

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The first issue with this post is it assumes the government data hasn’t been fudged!

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Like others noticed, the scores referred to do not compare with known SAT data. How were these numbers produced?

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What the data do suggest, however, is that middle class parents (white or minority) who conclude – based only on a school’s or a system’s overall test scores – that they should buy their houses in another district or send their kids to private schools rather than APS (or DeKalb or Decatur) may only be fooling themselves about the perceived benefits for their own children.

In Atlanta or DeKalb, almost no family buys the system, the generally buy an elementary school, and much more rarely a high school. For many of these families, it is about location and they buy knowing that they may move or use private school for the upper grades.

This differs tremendously from Cobb, N. Fulton and Gwinnett, where most buyers seem to be buying by the high school if you look at real estate ads.

This is why redistricting is going to be a nightmare in DeKalb.

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You don’t need to be white to do everything you can to get your child a decent education. If the public schools in Atlanta were as decent as everyone here claims, why are they in the news constantly? The school system here is a big mess and an even bigger cover up. But an even bigger problem is parents who want the school to teach their children discipline and control rather than the simple basic – reading, writing, etc. They want them to monitor attitudes, weapons, bullies. Perhaps we need to start holding parents accountable for their childrens’ actions.

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PBM ?

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Would you lump your kids into an environment with free range kids who have and are raising themselves ? No manners or regard for each other. Clear choice to me private urban schools or non-urban public.

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Sister, you are speaking the truth! That is perhaps the most articulate explaination of the urban school issue I’ve ever read. There are a lot of similarities between schools and the overall race issue. Most people just don’t want to speak bluntly about the sources of our problems. The culture of accepting or even celebrating crime and the gangster lifestyle in much of black society is holding it back much more than the Klan ever could. Moreover, no billion dollar federal program is going to change that. Not PC, but it’s the truth.

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Neil Boortz is right. Sending your kids to government run schools is a form of child abuse. Private schools are the only way to go any more.

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BG, Boortz is a candidate for the Freud factory. Tell that to the parents of kids at most of the Gwinnett schools (there’s a reason for the Broad prize) – The kids who come in to the high schools from your privates (because their parents know full well their kids won’t get into a decent college from the privates) are typically a year or two BEHIND the kids who have come up through the Gwinnett system. Sadly, even Gwinnett can’t make up for eight years of substandard private education. Indeed there ARE good privates out there – but the only kids who can afford them are the ivy league types.

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I’m horrible at statistics, so someone tell me if my logic is wrong here, but wouldn’t the fact that the white populations in APS, Decatur and probably Marietta are much smaller, in terms of sample size, creating numbers that are skewed?

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buh bye

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This is not a valid study. Even within the same school district results vary WILDLY among its school. No way you can convince me that Walton High’s SAT scores come even close to the scores of any school in an urban setting. BS.

In fact, I read year after year IN THIS VERY BLOG how Walton High’s results are way higher then anyone’s. As a matter of fact also, YOU have actually called Walton High the “power house of metro Atlanta”

So going district wide means nothing. When you compare a predominantly while school in the suburbs with a predominantly black school in the city, THEN we can talk.

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Most white families with children who live intown are upper middle class professionals who live in Buckhead or the Highlands or Candler Park. I don’t see working class white families in town. In the suburbs (and further out like in Cumming), there are many working class and lower middle class whites, whose test scores are likely lower than those of the upper middle class.

I work for APS; I’d never send my kids to APS.

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Dr. Tim, it is a special irony that you have 2 typos:
“The actual fact is that most white STUIDENTS [DO] well wherever they go to school. ”
while claiming racial superiority.
HaHa!

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Important issue – key data that was missing in analysis: what percentage of students in each district actually took the SAT test?
Suburban high schools have a much higher rate of participation which creates a larger pool for the average score. Urban high schools tend to have participation from the college bound students which creates a smaller (high achieving) pool for the average score.

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Maureen,

Why rely on a reader to do that kind of research?
Isn’t that the AJC’s job? Or yours?
What data sets is this person using? What methodologies? Who is this person?
There are a lot of questions here.

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Both of my kids have attended Grady High school in APS. This was a deliberated decision we made over suburban schools. As many of you point out, including Ms. Downey, SAT scores present a limited view. We began with the assumption that a good education may be had by a motivated student at many if not most public schools. We also factored in the benefits of a multicultural experience (increasingly available in the suburbs as well). Grady is about 63% black. My kids have never attended a majority white school, and we are extremely pleased with the education they have received (accomplished would be a better word, since you don’t really receive education).

I does appear that many of the posters here did not read the article carefully. Ms. Downey acknowledges the limitations of the study, and of SAT scores. She also acknowledges the importance of socioeconomic status. She was simply trying to get a glimpse of whether white students can get a decent education in an urban school, and the answer comes back yes. Although her approach ranks several urban schools ahead of prominent suburban schools on the SAT scores of white students, she did not do analysis, not make any claims as to whether these differences were statistically significant.
I believe her point is that white students can do just fine in urban schools, not to argue the superiority of either urban or suburban schools.

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I have to take issue with the notion of “white flight”. This was the case from the 1960’s through the 1980’s. In the 1990’s, things began to change. In the last decade, Atlanta has seen more growth in white residents, and many suburbs have seen more growth in minorities. The notion that the city is black and the suburbs are white is increasingly outdated. We all live in the same metropolitan area, and mostly face the same problems. It is a shame we cannot work together to solve them.

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Folks, you can make statistics say anything you want them to say and someone else, using the same data will probably come up with a different result than the one cited above. Be that as it may, there is a reason families with children are moving to Decatur, and the biggest reason is the School System…….you know why? because the citizens of the City of Decatur care about our children and the kind of schools where they will be educated. We have a Board of Education that cares, we have administrators, teachers, coaches and support personnel that care and we don’t have controversies that aren’t solved to the advantage of our children. We have the greatest little city in the state because of people who take pride in what we have and refuse to be dragged down to the level of say, the DCSS and the APS. In the CSD, emphasis is placed on education…..period.

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Well I won’t be PC either, but we are not just speculating here, we actually lived it. I was an army brat, raised all over the world, Native American, and did not know about racism (of the black variety-definitely knew it of the Native American type) till as a teen we landed in SC and the busing issue had hit. I have good friends of all ethnic/races. We attend a very diverse church as well. We associate with like-minded folks, so ours was a small group that lived in Dekalb from 1983-1999, trying our best to hold our ground, not do “white” flight. We could not even begin to concern ourselves with the quality of the education when safety was truly THE number one factor. My three oldest went to a high school in what used to be a good school. My oldest first year, he lost a dozen friends b/c parents moved. He was left with one friend who stayed in the area but even his folks put him in a private school. Even as things changed we were thrilled with the diversity offered because our high school was the one that the deaf kids from the deaf school were mainstreamed….those older kids learned sign language, and the refuge kids were mainstreamed through this school, my kids learned a lot about other cultures and as they were paired to escort these kids even learned some of their languages, so we thought it was great. But my third oldest, a girl pulled out in the spring of her senior year, she had enough. Both my girls had long hair, when they would enter the school in the morning certain girls would come up behind them and jerk them by their hair, sometimes bringing them down to the floor. No matter how my girls tried to avoid it it happened. My oldest, a son told me after graduation that getting through those four years was like entering a dark tunnel every day. It was not till a younger brother was getting ready to enter that all the older kids came and begged us to not let him go to that school, he would not make it, he was too sweet and kind and they feared for him. Now we knew it was rough, we kept a hands on as far as we could, but teachers and admin would not could not help. The kids feared for retribution if we got involved. So we set up rules that the kids lived by: some of which were: never go to the bathroom and never be caught in the halls after school is out. The daughter that dropped out finally told us the story of what pushed her to the edge: she was kept after the last class by a teacher to discuss a project. She still needed to run to her locker which was downstairs, she knew the rule but she had to have her books, so she took the chance, ran downstairs, everything deserted, and had almost made it, she heard voices and as she closed her locker there was a group of boys who saw her and headed her direction, and encircled her. They began telling her very graphically what they were going to do to her. She kept her calm and wits and prayed and the thought came to her that she needed to find the boy with the softest eyes she looked through and found the one, she locked her eyes on his and after a few minutes he is the one that said, “Come on lets leave her alone.” And she never went back. We did not know this for a couple of years. As soon as she told us this story I pulled my kids out and homeschooled for a short time, but my kids wanted the high school experience so I went to the county, hoping to use MtoM to let it work for us since we are Native American, I thought surely it can work for us too. We sat in the school district administrators office of one of the most diverse counties in the country and was told by a fine black gentleman in charge of the program, “I’m sorry M’am and Sir, but M to M is for the black kids, it was written specifically for them, but your kids deserve better, lets move them to ____school.” And he made it happen. We bought some time with that move, and then was able to within a year move to Cobb. Even at the new school where they stayed that last year in Dekalb, my kids were exposed to drugs, weapons threats (one son had hot coffee thrown on him, one son had a pencil stabbed in his hand). So at the new Cobb school on the 10th grader’s first day of school at lunch as he tried to juggle his tray of food and books, he sees a Black kid coming towards him, he prepared himself for the tray of food to end up all over him, and then surprised that this dude was coming to help him!!! I cried that my kids had to move to a different part of town to learn that there are good Black people. Our group of friends all got out about a year ahead of us, one had put their kids in the Decatur school system, but found so much trouble in every way they finally moved to Cobb. Another friend whose kids were in school near us pulled out after their son was falsely accused of something another kid did and as they went through all the proper steps and channels it was going to be pinned on him even though he had witnesses that said he did not do it. They pulled out and moved all the way out west. Up till this incident they were always overly giving in and seeing it from the “downtrodden’s” perspective. Other families made similar moves either out of state or out of county. So those parents who are involved and care it is almost like the system does not want you there. Even out of school, the community went from a safe place to be at night and weekends to one of having to be constantly vigilant. In our last year there it was interesting how many times me or my husband were awaken, and there was a sense that we needed to just walk through the house, check on things, turn on lights, look out windows, we would see strange cars drive by (we were in a culdesac) at 2, 3, 4 in the morning, actually had a car broken into and the radio taken, the police helicopter flew over almost every night with the search light on. If you were to ride around anywhere in a 10 + mile radius through the night you would see people out partying, playing, out making trouble, causing commotion, etc. any night of the week into wee hours. We had forgotten what normal life was…when we moved to Cobb, imagine the huge difference as we could go out and feel safe. If we were making a late run to the grocery store or drug store, after midnight: no traffic, empty streets and yards, people in their houses lights off, in bed. Imagine the differences of being able to go out in day light and conduct business at stores etc. and be treated with respect. I have since apologized to our kids who had it so rough, that we did not pull out sooner. They are very generous and tell us that they gained the kind of education that only comes from living in tough places and that they feel they could go anywhere in the world and be ok because of the smarts they learned to survive. That, people, is what kids learn in these schools. Teachers are afraid, so they can’t do anything, kids who are not in gangs are afraid. Through the years my kids have opened up and told me more and more stories of the things they saw and experienced down there….it makes me cry to think my kids were subjected to so much and then they could not even come home and tell us b/c they knew we would take it first to the teachers then to admin, and they had been well schooled in the what happens to the kids (and their family) if you cross those in charge.

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This is typical flawed logic by another guilty white liberal. Why did youcompare urban blacks against suburban blacks? You can’t compare whites against whites to prove this point. That simply makes no sense because everyone knows that education success is based largely upon the individual student and parental involvement. Suburban students are more likely to come from a 2 parent family with strong parental support and involvement as compared to urban students. If you’re trying to argue that perception does not match reality, you’re out of your mind.

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@ APS Teacher -

If you taught in schools serving Buckhead, VaHI, or Candler Park would you still say you wouldn’t send your kids there?

I say this as a Candler Park resident with a child in APS (Mary Lin ES). As you mentioned, most of the white people, most of ALL the people, who live in these areas are upper middle class professionals. Most of us also send our children to APS. So, it stands to reason these schools are very good. Anytime a school is populated by relatively affluent educated families it will do well. And you’re a lucky teacher to teach at Mary Lin because of PTA involvement. They give tons of grants to teachers for programs. Heck, they bought Promethean boards for EVERY single classroom.

Anyway, I understand the mindset of the suburbanites. In some cases it’s justified. But with everything, put away your broad brush. A few others on here have it right…it’s not the fate of middle and upper middle class whites in urban schools that need attention. They will do well wherever they are because they’re the product of an upper middle class home. It’s the fate of poor kids of all races that needs attention.

Don’t believe me? Then why is it the Mary Lin ES and Morningside ES grew so large they had to build Springdale Park ES (ie, SPARK)? And why is it that Mary Lin had to bring in trailers to house the 4th and 5th grade and are now planning to renovate the entire school to add new classrooms? It’s certainly NOT because of white flight.

Put the paint brush down.

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This is typical flawed logic by another guilty white liberal. Why did you not compare urban blacks against suburban blacks? You can’t compare whites against whites to prove this point. That simply makes no sense because everyone knows that education success is based largely upon the individual student and parental involvement. Suburban students are more likely to come from a 2 parent family with strong parental support and involvement as compared to urban students. If you’re trying to argue that perception does not match reality, you’re out of your mind.

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InHonestTerms…..The media and record labels have destroyed and entire culture???? Uh, no, the culture itself did that. Lack of parenting skills did that. I agree with MidGATeacher. It is the culture itself that I don’t like my son to be around, but it isn’t just the kids. Its the parents. I spent a short time teaching in Clayton County. I was disgusted. The students were disrespectful, loud and vulgar. Everything in my classroom that wasn’t locked up or glued down was stolen. When you called home to the parents to discuss their kids behavior, all you got were excuses. Even the principal himself (who was Black) actually told me when I was hired “These are minority students and they can’t be expected to behave as well as non-minority students”. WHAAAA??? I don’t care who or what you are, all kids are born with a clean slate. They CAN behave if they are taught to behave. But they didn’t because their whole culture allows it.

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As a rural high school teacher who lives intown, I agree 100% with midGA teacher. This post eloquently identifies the problems with urban schools that have ghetto culture, and also correctly identifies the difference between how suburban versus urban schools deal with problem students. By sending students to the local alternative schools, suburban schools not only improve the classroom environment for all students, but also improve the high school graduation rate. Our faculty was actually TOLD by a GA DOE representative that this was the best method to improve high school graduation rates and reduce the risk of not making AYP. A huge problem with urban high schools is that the problem students are not dealt with and these students prevent others from the benefit of a productive learning environment. The issue has absolutely NOTHING to do with black versus white but has everything to do with the GHETTO CULTURE. Those who embrace and propagate the ghetto culture drag the standards down for all. Some of the best students I have had the pleasure to teach are black, and yes, their parents moved out of DeKalb in order to remove their kids from the ghetto culture. They ended up graduating at the top of their class in an 85% white school.

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i get it now. its the media and corporate greed that is the problem

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My wife and I are both native Atlantans. Happily living in Cobb. I have to say that the very idea of trying to portray Atlanta city schools as better for “white” students, indicates that somebody, evidently, thinks that the metro area is predominately “white”. It is not. Question should be, what schools are best for all of our children. The results are clear, and have been for years. 1. Private 2: Cobb and North Fulton/Alpharetta. Get a life.

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My fellow citizens! If the parents or the kids do not want a great harvard education sobeit. We need mud makers, brick toters, ditch diggers, and material handlers. You need to stop telling your children it is bad to work in the fields or on a construction crew.

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White flight huh? Years ago during the Boston busing crisis the local station was interviewing the local “townies” about their feelings. One man pretty much summed it up for the rest of the “decent white folk” surrounding him; “we don’t want to live near Ni@@ers.” Myself personally I don’t feel that black children need to be sitting next to white children to receive a quality education. However TOO MANY of MY brothers and sisters have been HOODWINKED to believe differently.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Lies-White-Truth-According/dp/0688151310

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@ APS Teacher -

You’re in for a big let down. ALL the schools are like that. All of them everywhere, not just Georgia. And not just public. I say that as a product of private schools (thought I graduated back in the very early 90s).

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@rural hs teacher

“By sending students to the local alternative schools, suburban schools not only improve the classroom environment for all students, but also improve the high school graduation rate. Our faculty was actually TOLD by a GA DOE representative that this was the best method to improve high school graduation rates and reduce the risk of not making AYP”

I have been trying to call attention to this unethical practice for quite awhile. I would really like to email with you off line if possible. Perhaps Maureen could give you my email address if you were to contact her.

This cheating mess needs to stop!

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Interesting case study:

I met a woman who works for Paideia. She would receive discounted fees to send her children there. She lived in City of Decatur. She and her husband were (are) fairly affluent and could afford Paideia with or without the discount, according to her. But instead she sent them to City of Decatur because (1) her high property taxes were going to be paid no matter what, and (2) her children would receive an excellent education at City of Decatur schools, and (3) she and her husband felt they could put the money they’d spend on private school tuition towards a 529 or other savings for college.

Very few Candler Park residents send their children to private schools. Mary Lin is literally 2 streets south of Paideia but we don’t send our kids there (some may, but most don’t). Because it’s just not necessary. There is no added benefit for the cost.

And I am not, by any means, knocking Paideia. It’s a very fine school. But so is Mary Lin.

As for “teaching to the test”, I said before that all the schools do it. I stand by that. We all may feel that our child’s particular teacher takes interest in his/her class. That might be true while also teaching to the test. Teachers are people and they respond positively or negatively to their classroom depending on the people in it. It stands to reason, in any good school the teacher will respond to your child if you put forth action. For instance, my child is in the 4th grade. Part of his homework is to read for 30 minutes every night. They are required to read at least 2 books a month and they take Accelerated Reader tests on the books they read. The AR scores aren’t used for anything other than gauging how much the student is reading and how advanced the reading material is (the more advanced the book the more points it’s worth). The kids themselves have responded by trying to outdo each other in points. My very own son read “Watership Down” for 25 AR points. Now he’s set out to read the entire Harry Potter series, then he wants to read Lord of the Rings.

I won’t sit here and tell you my own son’s reading accomplishments are because of Mary Lin and their 30 minute reading requirement. It’s because my husband and I have fostered reading in our household. There is zero television during the school week and on the weekends it’s limited to after dark.

But I will sit here and tell you that my neighborhood is filled with parents like us, so the neighborhood is filled with kids like my son, so is the school.

As I said, put down the broad brush and choke down your fear. And certainly don’t worry about the fate of my son, if you were so inclined.

I won’t say more because people who disagree will always disagree. You never change minds on a blog. Minds only change as a result of repeated exposure to reality. And a blog ain’t it.

But I’m willing to bet everyone on here are decent people who want the best for their kids. That alone assures they will receive it. There’s no need to defend your actions.

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John, Yes, comparing urban and suburban blacks would be informative as well. However, beyond that I think it is your logic that is flawed. You argue that you cannot compare white suburban students with white urban students to make this point. However that comparison is exactly the point. The article does not try to do anything more than that.

This discussion of urban, suburban and rural schools in Georgia to determine which is best (or worst) is widely off the mark. Is the goal really to be the best school in the worst state? Wouldn’t we do better if we made a concerted effort to improve ALL the schools? I would prefer that my children go to an average school in a great educational state, than a good school in a lousy educational state.

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Patriot,
Nothing astounding about it (it is a great school).
1) Great inputs – as many here have pointed out, the economic and educational level of parents is the best predictor of student success. Woodward, as well as Westminster and others, get to select from the best of these, with a handful of high performing lower income students on scholarship. They are not required to take any students they don’t want.
2) Last I knew, they typically charge $20,000 – $30,000 per student per year, while public schools spend about $12,000. Visit Westminster, and you will see classrooms the size of you living room. That is all you need for a class size of 7.
3) What is amazing is that public schools do as well as they do after having many of the best students siphoned off, and half the money to spend. Think about the positive effect that these private school students could have on the public school systems. It would improve the educational environment, and perhaps create a critical mass for improvement.

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We all want what is best for our kids. Many parents choose private schools for this reason, and I respect that. However, I think it is a narrow view. Yes your student will get all the resources they need to succeed. But, there are other lessons they may not learn there. On the other hand, think about the benefits to your child if we have a more educated society, and the positive effect your child could have on public schools.

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“Less successful” as defined by what? Test scores? Test scores do not measure how effective a school is– not by themselves. When I taught in my first inner city school , I would have taken my child there without hesitation. We had superb teachers and an administration that did not tolerate disruption and “ghetto” behavior by ANY race. My second inner city school– I would never have sent my child there.Not because of the teachers or the test scores– but because “cultural diversity” meant tolerating rude, disrespectful kids who who had no respect for authority and did not care about doing work or behaving in school. I would never have exposed my daughter to a school in which learning was continually interrupted by students who chose to disrupt and an administration who did not support the teachers. This is not a racial issue, it is a cultural/ behavioral issue. No one’s “culture” is so important that can be allowed to disrupt the school and /or classroom. If you do not believe it, do a study on how many upper/middle class Blacks also fled the “ghetto” schools for the same reasons. I have African American friends who did the same as I did.

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It cracks me up – OTP folks don’t know what they don’t know.

Once upon a time, schools only reported their overall average test scores. Affluent, majority white schools consistently reported higher scores than majority black inner city schools. I’m not trying to play the race card, but pretty much across the board (CRCT, EOCT, SAT, etc) white kids score higher on tests than black kids. Then, George W. Bush’s “No Child Left Behind” forced all schools to “disaggregate” information by race, among other things.

My kids attended Morningside Elementary School (MES) in APS. One day I was talking schools with an OTP colleague, and he said in effect – “well yes, that’s fine, but what about middle school”?
I made a sucker bet with him that the disaggregated CRCT scores for white students at Inman Middle School (where my kids would go) were higher than where his kids went to middle school. I was correct.

I make the same assertion to all the readers of this blog. If you look at Inman’s scores for white kids for the 8th grade CRCT, they are likely higher than the scores for your neighborhood middle school’s scores.

http://reportcard2009.gaosa.org/(S(htsfim45tqvpu3v1jrdm1b55))/k12/reports.aspx?ID=761:1563&TestKey=c*8&TestType=qcc&CompareType=Parent

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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@Really amazed:
Your sarcasm contains an element of truth. “They” say (don’t ask me who “they” are) that your high-achieving kid will have a much better chance of being admitted to a top-tier college from a ‘gritty, inner-city’ high school like Grady than from an elite private school.

Just don’t count on him being top 2% – the competition at Grady might be a lot tougher than you imagine.

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A smart kid is going to be a smart kid wherever they go to school. Maybe “white flight” has more to do with safety than anything else. Have you walked down the hall of an urban high school recently?

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PC,
As a matter of fact, I am at Grady HS almost daily. I have never felt unsafe there, nor have my kids. I think that all of us judge our schools by what we know, and when our kids go there, we know a lot. We judge other schools by what we hear on the news, which means we don’t know so much (or we don’t pay attention to the right stuff).

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Wow, this topic touched a nerve, didn’t it, Maureen? Kudos to MidGA Teacher (6:22 am) for speaking the truth–you are today’s Blog Hero!– and to InHonestTerms (8:04) for being the man Dr. PBM should be.

We, too, chose to live where we live for a specific elementary school and never intended for our children to attend an APS middle or high school. We decided long ago that even our generally well-regarded middle school (Inman) has too many thugs-in-training, and Grady HS? Forget about it. My children are not going to walk through metal detectors and past armed, uniformed police officers to get to their classrooms.

But we figured a good public elementary school would be a way to save 6 years’ worth of private school tuition per child (before exiting the system after 5th grade), and we still may try that route with our second child. I’m guessing a lot of other parents in our neighborhood may be following the same strategy…

There are oases of good in the scorched-earth desert that is APS (like Morningside Elementary and the wonderful principal there) but they are rare.

John Trotter comes off as way over the top on this blog a lot of times, but just about every post here validates what he’s always saying about disruptive kids in class. So long as those thugs-in-training remain a serious threat in APS middle and high schools, our children will never set foot in those buildings.

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Bill

November 19th, 2010
10:03 am
PC,
As a matter of fact, I am at Grady HS almost daily. I have never felt unsafe there, nor have my kids. I think that all of us judge our schools by what we know, and when our kids go there, we know a lot. We judge other schools by what we hear on the news, which means we don’t know so much (or we don’t pay attention to the right stuff).

Bill, you’re absolutely correct……Grady High School is probably the finest HS in the APS System and has always been that way even when it was “Boys High School” from it’s inception till the late forties when it combined with Tech High and changed it’s name to Grady High School. And you know what else, the entire Atlanta System, up until thirty five years ago, was a great, great school system. Bill, don’t let your guard down……Beverly is looking your way and wants to drag your school down to the level of the southside schools…..don’t let her, please

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Springdale,

I would suggest you spend some time at Grady high school before you make your decision. It is too bad this blog was not last week, because Grady just hosted a huge debate tournament last weekend (over 400 students from 43 schools in three sates, plus over 200 coaches and judges). The tournament was so large, that we had to use all of the available space at both Grady and Inman. I was a good opportunity to see the best that this school has to offer.

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@ Bill:
I have visited Grady four times in the course of my regular work, and gotten a very good look at (in particular) the behavior of the students on campus and right under the noses of the teachers and cops…

Should I be grateful there are so many uniformed officers around, or appalled that they’re necessary?

We need to get something straight. There’s “good by APS standards,” which means good enough for one of the statistically worst-performing districts in one of the worst-performing states in the country –and then there’s Really, Truly Good. This is a distinction many of us who have lived and worked elsewhere understand.

I respect the decision of any parent who sends their children to Inman and Grady. God bless you for fighting the good fight, and I mean that.

But these schools do not come close to meeting the standard I set for my own children. Academically, socially, school leadership, school discipline–on all these points and more, these schools fail–but especially on the issue of discipline.

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Maureen, I beg to differ……all school have a certain amount of discipline and other types of problems….even CSD however, in my opinion, the educational opportunities in the top private schools in Georgia far exceed anything you could expect in any public school in Georgia. Now, there are public school systems in the northeast part of our country that are exceptional and rival the private schools opportunities……snow anyone?

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Former Springdale Park Parent, do you actually know anything about the culture of Grady? The metal protectors are there as a standard so you may want to refrain from making assumptions before you do the actual research. For those of you using the term “ghetto”, it’s an elitist term and doesn’t reflect all members of a community. It’s so easy to abandon a system rather than getting involved to support it. Plain and simple, the detractors are the real failures for abandoning the members of their community with their elitist and bigoted philosophies by categorizing all students from the inner city based upon the sensationalized stories from our media. Go to the school, find out that there are forty students to a classroom. Discover that we don’t have the luxury to pick and choose our students based upon performance, behavior, and monetary income as compared to private schools. Having a class of fifteen students is optimal for teaching, having forty becomes more about overall management. Most of you wouldn’t survive in a real teaching environment so either return to fantasy land or start standing up for your local communities. At least I can cross many of you off of my potential friend list.

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White Flight is very real and I think it is due to a combination of the notion that more blacks and perhaps hispanics in a school automatically suggests that the ghetto culture will not be far behind. Whether this is simply flawed perception or reality seems to be irrelevant to some whites. If you look at the racial makeup of some of the schools in the “middle” as far as socioeconomics is concerned, and in Cobb in particular, there are many schools where the population of white students is underrepresented when you look at the ethnic breakdown of the community that surrounds the school. Here are a few that come to mind
CAMPBELL MIDDLE SCHOOL: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129002070/school.aspx, (scroll to the bottom and note how the racial stats between black whites and hispanics (which are the larget subgroups, trend over the years.) Now look at the neighborhood breakdown: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129002070/school.aspx?entity=18
FLOYD MIDDLE SCHOOL: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000553/school.aspx, http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000553/school.aspx?entity=18; GARRETT MIDDLE SCHOOL: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000534/school.aspx, http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000534/school.aspx?entity=18, and perhaps surprising to some of you who do not live in Cobb, even EAST COBB MIDDLE SCHOOL has seen the same white flight effect, The underrepresentation of white students at this school is significant. 88% white in the community that is in the same zip code as the school (and i do realize this is not snonymous with the school attendance zone but there is definitely overlap) vs 31% white students attending the school.Blacks are 43% and hispanics are 15% of the school population. http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000536/school.aspx, http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000536/school.aspx?entity=18

Makes you wonder what’s really driving the whites out. Is it predominately the ghetto culture that has been suggested on this blog, or is it simply the color of the skin of the students. If there is anyone on this blog from the East Cobb area, i’d love to hear your thougths about East Cobb Middle. In particular, has there been a growing ghetto culture/mentality at this school over the years to justify the decline in white student enrollment? If we want to add socioeconomics to the mix, I can see that the % of free and reduced lunch students has also been increasing over the years. in 2009 the % free and reduced was 59%. The general flight of races seems to be that whites move forst, then black come later (as far as the masses are concerned) and arguably, the first blacks that arrive are probably the sort that have the same family values, high expectations for their kids, etc.. as the whit parents. I am not white so i do not know, but maybe there is some threshold of comfort in racial makes up at which whites may feel a little “uncomfortable” and that is when the “flight” starts to occur? Thoughts from others?? Personally, I think that we should all feel free to choose to live in whatever environment we are most comfortable in. If you are white and that means your preference is to be in predominately white schools and neighborhoods, that is your prerogative, as there are Blacks who prefer an HBCU to a traditional college of all races. In my opinion, I think we should all seek out more racially balanced environments especially when you consider the world that we live in and the one that our children will inherit, but that’s just the choice that my wife and I have made for our family.

Here’s a hypothetical… let’s assume there’s a Walton equivalent high school interms of academic achnevement, enrichment activities, facilities, reputation, parental involvement etc.. in a predominately black community where white enrollment hovers around 5% (right now Blacks make up 4.8% of the walton population) , and there isn’t another high performing school of that caliber in the district, would white parents be clamoring for their kids to attend this school (In a school like this I’d be hard pressed to think that the ghetto mentality would be the law of the land in such a school.)? Hmmm… I am not so sure that they would. However, that said, should it matter? I dont know to what extent it should matter, but what i do know is that if you are white and your main interest is academic achievement then it should not matter. So it saddens me a bit to think that in this case race might trump school achievement. I know that in this case, for many African American households, race may not matter as much as it would for that of a white person. If you agree with this notion, why do you think that is the case?

At the end of the day, I too feel as most posters do, that the success of a child is highly dependent on the parents and the value that is placed on high levels of academic achievement in the home.

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@ Springdale Park -

I’m not sure re being appalled at the reality of any inner city school. Certainly Grady is inner city. Certainly there are measures taken for security that you see there and not at suburban schools.

Do I worry for my own son’s safety? No. The probability of him getting harmed, physically, at Grady is low. That sort of crime is by and large done among people who know each other. I doubt my son will be hanging out with those children pre-disposed to violence. In fact, I am 100% sure it won’t be a problem.

A better question is: Do I want to shield my son from the reality of inner city life? The answer to that is: No.

I like to think my son will leave my household with a shine of sophistication that only comes from life experience. Better than the lily white pureness and naivety I left my parents house with…that others took advantage. You can’t teach that, only learn it.

I’m just glad I have the ability to choose. Most don’t.

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Honestly, the dynamic at work here is this: “We feel so lucky to be at (our intown Atlanta public school), because it could be so much worse!”

Many APS schools benefit from this “guilty white liberal” groupthink. “Not as bad as it could be” –that’s where you want to set the bar?

Why don’t we try to OBJECTIVELY evaluate Grady, with its inadequate gifted students program, its overcrowded AP classes (and no coherent plan for expansion) and ask yourself these questions: is this the launching pad I imagined for my college-bound child? Is there ANY WAY a private school wouldn’t be a better option, if we could afford it? Do I really believe we wouldn’t be better off in Gwinnett?

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(M)ad_(R)ussian, keep up your great work. As a retired public school teacher, I can empathize with you.

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Mo: You must have hit a nerve on this topic. I am just sitting here in my deer stand near Union Springs, trying to figure out in my head how that Mark Elgart could slam Clayton County and not do a thing to his home county of Fulton where the micromanagement of the school system was so egregious under Superintendent John Haro that he only stayed five or six months before resigning in disgust. Just trying to figure this out…in my head. You don’t think that Elgart just picks and chooses who he wants to pick on, do you? That Ericka Davis in Clayton County must have had some quixotic spell on Mark Elgart. From Ericka, it was like…One call…that’s all! Boom! Elgart was on Clayco like white on rice! Just about destroyed that county! Hundreds and hundreds of millions in property value was lost. One call…that’s all! And to think that we were just about going to invite him to join the East Alabama Hunting Club. We like to integrate our club with one arrogant Yankee per year. We have to have someone to pick on over the camp fire, you know.

I am trying to keep up with these posts but they’re coming at me too fast! I think that I might miss a deer — and Thanksgiving Dinner is right around the corner, you know! I’m reading all that I can on my Blackberry Curve, but I think that I’m gonna have to upgrade to one of them Druids. A devil of a phone, it sure is! It can even take pictures!

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One thing that attracted me to Mary Lin was it’s connection to the community around it. The surrounding businesses, festivals, parks, etc, all seem to be involved in school activities. The kindergarteners tour the Flying Biscuit, older kids walk to The Carter Center, the various festivals in Candler Park have a kids play area where proceeds go to Mary Lin, etc. From what I’ve seen, it’s the same for Morningside. Community involvement is very, very visible and prominent.

I suppose that community feel is also what largely had us choose Mary Lin over Paideia. This isn’t easily translated/communicated, though, to people who don’t live here.

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Lil Skeeter, after you bag your deer, buy a Druid(if it takes videos); take it with you as you visit the schools your kids and other relatives attend; make pictoral records of what you observe there; and place the videos on YouTube. Your video-posting might encourage others to the same. Such videography might provide us the evidence of the good and the bad occurring daily in specific tax-supported schools.

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Craig: Cousin Booger and I have thought about this, but that there FERFA (is this how to say it?) law is a real booger.

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Response to the “Larry” comment…

“Hell,my black friends dont’t educate their kids in town.They live in Kennesaw,Cummings,Roswell,Alpharetta,and they don’t intend on sending them to college at Morehouse,Morris Brown or any other segregated all black sub standard environment.”

Larry…….your comment is dripping with a lack on knowledge. The fact that you would put Morehouse College and Morris Brown College in the same sentence is utterly ridiculous. So “all black” = “sub standard”??? I would do a tad bit of research on the history and reputation of Morehouse College if I were you. In fact, do you realize that just a couple of years ago that Morehouse had a white valedictorian who went on to work on Wall Street? I certainly hope that you don’t make hiring decisions at your place of employment!!

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I am sick and tired of all the excuses as to why one group of kids out perform another. This divisiveness carried on by the parents, teachers and school system is the very reason why all kids are not exposed to adequate schooling. I grew up in a single parent household in the inner city up North. I graduated college on a Full Academic scholarship and will be attending law school. My husband is college educated as well. We have a daughter in the Dekalb School system in middle school. We have always been heavily involved in her schooling and will continue to do so. I am in the PTA and volunteer. Our family is not white! We are the African American family that so you often want to ignore exist. We expect no less than any other group of parents who want their children to succeed. We’ve dealt with teachers of all ethnicities that did not want to teach but collect a paycheck. When my daughter received a “notoriously ‘bad’ teacher” we had her assigned to different class. You have children of all races that fail becuase of the lack of interest from parents, teachers and the community as a whole. If your school and/or child is failing what are you doing to improve it? If your child comes home with behavior unacceptable to you, then change it. Stop blaming other groups and look at yourself.

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@AlreadySheared at 9:41 am, Thank you for sharing that Georgia DOE website.

What the facts show for the 2008-2009 Report Card in the Personnel & Fiscal category is that in Decatur schools 22% of teachers are black.

In Atlanta Public Schools, black teachers make up 75%. Care to guess where the high percentage of white teachers teach? Yup, Buckhead elementary and middle schools, followed by a good majority at Morningside and Mary Lin.

Data from the Georgia DOE website, http://goo.gl/Sl17x

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@Bill, sounds like your kid is in the Grady Communications magnet or SLC. Is he not in the good track? If Grady is excelling academically as you state, why did it not make AYP last year? Is it because of those other students your kid will not have too deal with after high school?

For all those talking about redistricting. Do you think APS is going to mess with the Grady lines being a Title I school? Grady ia at 42% free or reduced lunch. The thresh hold is 40%, so you will still have those Ghetto kids. The federal money is too significant to lose for APS.

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@ Dr. Tim….RE “The actual fact is that most white students well wherever they go to school”….:Let everyone say AMEN…..after “most Asian students” is added.
It is not the color of the skin that is the variable, however. It is the culture of the group.

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So, this writer cherry picks some data and concludes that all the whites who move out of Atlanta are wrong.??

ROFLMAO

There are a lot of reasons to move away from an over-crowded, crime-ridden city. Just because you found a few pockets of security gate utopia doesn’t mean I want to live there.

Let’s look at your #1 – City of Decatur schools. One high school, in close proximity to three colleges, a major teaching hospital, and the demographics include a population where over 56% have a Bachelors degree or higher and over 27% have a Graduate degree or higher.

Not quite your run-of-the-mill big city high school, I submit.

Quite frankly, most of us outside the metro Atlanta area think suburbia as only a small step up from in-town Atlanta living. Not much difference between the two, imho.

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I felt the need to make a comment regarding public versus private schools. Sometimes, yes, private schools do produce students who have high achievements. However, keep in mind that private schools can select who attends and who gets kicked out. Public schools are required to provide an education to all students who attend. Therefore, often it is the high achieving students who attend private school in the first place.

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“The fact that you would put Morehouse College and Morris Brown College in the same sentence is utterly ridiculous.”

@Kevin, again, someone making broad statements about schools in which they know very little about. My father is a proud Morris Brown graduate. He was valedictorian of his high school class and finished in the top 10 of his class at Morris Brown. He has told me of many well known attorneys and business people in the Atlanta area that went to school with him. This was in the 60’s, but I’m sure if they hadn’t had so many financial issues the school would still be successful today. MLK, Jr went to Morehouse, but Mama King went to Morris Brown. All of these schools have a wonderful history that need not be distorted by inaccurate information. We are all hopeful that the school will regain accreditation because it served many students in a unique environment. It’s interesting how people want to assume that if you go to college “a” instead of college “b” you’re somehow better off. I’ve found that it’s personal drive and ambition that garners success. Oprah Winfrey is a prime example. She didn’t attend Harvard or any other Ivy League, she graduated from Tennessee State.

“The thresh hold is 40%, so you will still have those Ghetto kids. ”

@Can a school system be too black? are you saying that white kids don’t receive free or reduced lunch? Wow! It doesn’t get any more ignorant than that.

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@ Springdale Park,

OK, let’s not start being nasty. No need to tell Bill he must be smoking crack.

It’s obvious you can’t be persuaded. I already mentioned nobody changes anybody’s mind on a blog. It’s ESPECIALLY true for you who does NOT have high school aged kids, despite hearing testimony from Grady parents.

Fine. But that doesn’t mean those of us who do send our kids to Grady aren’t doing so with our eyes wide open.

Think about it. You live in the Morningside/VaHi/Poncy-Hi area, correct? Are you going to sit there in your affluent neighborhood and tell us, who live over here in the other affluent neighborhood that all your neighbors are stupid crack smokers?

No, you won’t.

So, lighten up. Cause in a few years your wallet will, no matter what. And you will at least have your peace of mind.

But so will we. And that’s all there is to it.

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Are these SAT scores from the same Atlanta where the mass cheating on the CRCT scores occurred? Hmmm? and the same Atlanta where the school board is currently under investigation by the same outfit that stripped Clayton County of accredation? Hmmm? Sounds like Maureen has an ax to grind. White parents move their kids to predominantly white schools because of safety just as much for anything else. So far, the most recent shootings at schools have been in Dekalb County. Hmmm?

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@Atlanta Mom, You said “Anyone who understands NCLB understands what I just said.” You breathing the air in L5P too?

Just because Grady got NCLB students does not mean that those students were low performing. On the contrary, those families chose to excercise their NCLB option to transfer. You implying those kids are bringing Grady down is ludacrous. It is obviously not your child in the Communication Magnet that is dragging Grady down. You know darn well there are two Gradys. Those thugsters living in the Old Fourth Ward, Kirkwood, Eastlake and near the Fulton County jail are the ones you don’t want your kid in school with.

Why does APS get rid of our Grady Magnet program and then create magnet like schools at Carver with minimum academic requirements? How is that not a magnet? Those schools will always make AYP because the dumb one are in the school of technology.

You are so concerned about having 40 kids in your kid’s AP class. Ask him how many kids he knows that are lying to attend Grady. outofzone@atlanta.k12.ga.us

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“White Flight” is as old as water. Let’s get back to the issue at hand. Black educational leaders and board members in Clayton, Dekalb, and Atlanta are “stupid” and “corrupt” like white led systems were historically. For example, APS superintendent has continuously violated rules of porofessional ethics and possibly committed crimes of misrepresentation against the feds and state. Yet, she continues to evade prosecution and maintains her job. Most recently, she, Dr. Hall convinced the ex chair to start the process of extending her contract in violation of obvious “open meeting” laws to say the least. Then, SACS… it’s shocking.

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@Grady Parent,
I have no problem with 40 students in an AP class. It’s the remedial math and english classes that should not have 40 students in them

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@Atlanta Mom, Sorry. I think I mixed you up with another Grady parent. I guess 40 smart AP students are still going to get the job done. How many kids do you or your kid know that are lying to attend Grady? 5? 10? more? Probably RJ’s friends.

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If APS and Decatur City Schools are doing such a great job, why are no schools from either district among the top 20 schools in GA by average SAT scores? That list is limited to schools in Fulton, Cobb, and Gwinnett, plus 1 school in Dekalb County, according to the College Board and the AJC. http://www.ajc.com/news/georgias-average-sat-scores-612437.html.

When you rank the GA school systems by average SAT and ACT scores, neither APS nor Dekalb County is anywhere near the top.

Decatur City does well for SAT scores and reasonably well for ACT scores, but ACT scores are lower than Forsyth County, Fayette County, Cobb County , Fulton County, Gwinnett County, and Cherokee County. Marietta City ranks below all these counties as well on ACT and SAT scores. This is using the same data your reader used to attack white flight, but tells a much different story.

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Grady Parent
As a black middle class parent in SW Atlanta, I definitely wanted to send my children to Grady. It’s a good school, regardless of what some on this blog think. The ghetto culture is seeping into the SW schools more and more. And unless someone does something to stop it, there will be more parents fleeing. I did my part, but there’s only so much a small minority of parents can do. There were more parents at PTA in the small elementary school on the north side than a high school with six times as many students.

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@Warrior Woman:
The author use DISAGGREGATED scores to compare the scores of white students.
For example, in 2008 – 2009 school year (”recent sat/ verbal + math”):

Northview (listed as #1 in the link you posted)
286 white students posted an average SAT score of 1141. The school’s overall average was increased by 184 asian students’ scores averaging 1234

http://reportcard2009.gaosa.org/(S(mmpikm45xor0t3rveu4qbz45))/k12/reports.aspX?ID=660:203&TestKey=SAT&TestType=st9

At Atlanta Public Schools’ Grady High School, 57 white students posted an average score of 1161 – 20 points higher than Northview. The school’s overall average was decreased by 99 black students’ scores averaging 880.

http://reportcard2009.gaosa.org/(S(swwyin55vwi5hv55opz32mfm))/k12/reports.aspX?ID=761:4560&TestKey=SAT&TestType=st9

Repeating my previous Senator Moynihan quote:
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”

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@Grady Parent, I know of no such thing. Perhaps parents send their kid to Grady because of the programs it offers students. Perhaps the school in their district doesn’t offer that same program. You don’t have to lie about your address if your zone school didn’t make AYP. You are legally allowed to attend an out of zone school. Also, you can apply to attend school within your district by a given date in July. So you see, there are many ways around attending your zone school.

I can agree about some of the schools in SW though. There has been Black Flight of middle class blacks in the city of Atlanta. This is due to the negative culture of the schools. Many have moved to South Fulton where there are schools that aren’t nearly as bad. Personally, I prefer for my kids to experience diversity.

Regarding central office staff and their choice of schools, wouldn’t you do the same? Every job has perks. I have no problem with it.

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Genetics. Period.

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Grady Parent
Actually, I am all for vouchers. My son has an SB10 scholarship. I never thought I’d say I was glad he has a disability, but it has helped his educational opportunities immensely. Aren’t those ladies at APS central office too old to have school-aged children? When Beverly Hall came to my daughter’s high school for one of those Town Halls/Fireside Chats or whatever, I asked about all the emphasis being placed on the new schools at Carver (this was several years ago). What I got was a condescending smirk about how parents at the so called good schools always complain about resources going to the poorer schools and parents at the poorer schools complaining that the so called good schools get all the resources. I took that as a “shut up and quit complaining” comment which I did not appreciate. Also, at all the school meetings I attended during that time where district representatives spoke, they just seemed to be giving lip service and unwilling to address any real questions.

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There are a number of comments posted here expressing a wide variety of opinions. It seems to me, however, that there are two main issues at play: 1.) the perception of inner city culture and 2.) addressing underperformance by NON-white students in urban public schools. Given the data presented by Ms. Downey, it seems apparent to me, as several people on both sides of the issue have noted, that white students from a supportive middle-class background can and will perform well in either environment. Given this knowledge, it seems that the only possible reason that parents might have for uprooting and leaving for another school system then would be motivated by grossly exaggerated and, to be perfectly frank, racist perceptions of a majority-black educational environment. Several of you have pointed out, quite legitimately, that all this squabbling over the performance of white public school students seems to brush over the major problem we have in this state, and particularly in our urban public schools, of underperformance by minority students. However, in searching for a solution to this problem, these two are undeniably linked. As white middle-class families move out of the district, so do their tax dollars and resources, and it’s no secret that school funding is directly related to student success. How could we possibly expect urban school districts to improve while at the same time decreasing the resources available to them? If we accept the findings (and the opinions expressed by most commenters on this blog) that middle-class white students are likely to succeed regardless, why would any parent that was truly concerned about the education problem in Atlanta’s inner city schools remove their valuable resources that could be used for the betterment of their entire community from the equation? This isn’t simply about convincing white families to stay urban, but rather it is about convincing everyone that we all have a responsibility to our community. Why selfishly run away from our problems when we have the resources at our disposal to benefit everyone?

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[...] [...]

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@Henry W. Grady, The premise that white kids will do well and therefore should not bail on the inner city is solely based on these SAT scores. That’s bunk and you know it. There’s more to the school experience than a test. Even black families don’t want their kids in all black schools. Hmm, why is it OK for them
to say that, like @RJ, but white’s can’t? Who’s going to raise the bar with all those white clubs and teams? Lacrosse, ultimate, chess, robotics, mock trial, etc. And whose PTSA is going to raise the money for it?
We know who. Your kid won’t and you did not attend all non-white schools. Please stop your preaching and passing judgement on people who are not guilted by your rhetoric. Besides, APS is about to lose it’s accreditation anyways. Who will be left at your school?

Another flaw in your example is that when people move the tax money leaves too. It doesn’t. The next owner of the property pays the taxes regardless if they have kids.

Now, it’s true those supportive resources are gone, but who can blame them for losing faith and any trust with APS? This is just the tip of the iceberg with the messes at APS. The new Republican Governor with his Libertarian transition team is going to clean house at APS. That will be some serious reform!

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“White flight: Are parents running to less successful schools?”

Those fleeing majority Asian schools in California are running from successful schools to mediocre schools. In Georgia it may be a different story.

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White flight: Are parents running to less successful schools?

A: This data is so skewed, so the answer is no. This is a parenting, media, and culture issue.

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@ Henry Grady: I appreciate your well-thought out post. As a parent at a school in North Fulton that is experiencing white flight due to a significant influx of non-white, impoverished students, your observation that supported, middle class students do well academically regardless of environment is helpful. I am debating the merits of leaving my own child at her public school. The one area that I would argue with your post is over why most white families leave. For most, I don’t think it’s blatant racism due to becoming the minority race in a school. I think its the impact that poverty brings to a school – the ghetto language, discipline problems, the widening spectrum of academic levels in one classroom.

I feel compelled to support my local community school by keeping my child in the school, along with the resources I can offer of volunteer time and money. But, I have a limit. At what point does my responsibility to shield my 8 year-old daughter from obsence language and classroom disruptions trump the idealism of supporting your local school.

My daughter is a big fish in a little pond, flourishing academically and developing leadership skills. She stands out in her school. But, she’s swimming with needy, hungry, tired, undisciplined sharks.

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I’m looking at private schools for my kids after 1 1/2 years in public school. While there are many things I like about our school I think it’s time to more on. My son needs to be at a school with a smaller teacher/student ratio. Our school also does not have art and the kids don’t go outside enough. I also think there is too much testing. I was very discouraged wth 3 out of 5 board members (DeKalb) getting re-elected. We may return to public for high school.

I do agree that Decatur schools are some of the best. I have friends that pay tutition to send their son to a Decatur school.

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I was educated at predominately white schools, black people, you are not missing anything. Instead of teenage pregnancies, their insurance pays for abortions (yes Republicans too), they can’t misbehave because the students are high off their ADHD meds or stolen prescriptions from grandma. They cottle their children and wonder why they return home with that degree from Emory, unemployed and lazy. We always think what the white man has is so much better, they are just people and have their own set of problems like anyone else. It is not about race but parenting…people should not feel guilty about choosing a better school just don’t choose a certain demographic because you may still lose the battle. White people started this racial structure, benefit from it, and then refuse to talk about.LOL If you like your own people, honestly I don’t have a problem with that, just don’t put any other race down because you prefer your own race or culture. I prefer my race but not because its better, but because its only human to identify with your kind. This PC stuff has got to stop because as long we are divided, then the real enemy goes untouched.

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Atlanta Forward / Another View: Atlanta schools can’t afford to lose Hall……me thinks the reason “John Rice” has come out with this stance is…..”he doesn’t want to admit that GE Technology has thrown their money ($22M) down the toilet”.

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**In response to those that think Georgia is truly at the bottom in terms of SAT/ACT scores.**
People, please consult your local library for “The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2010.” If you can’t find this particular one then look for previous years. Reference the stats for those standardized tests. There is a column that reports a percentage of students who actually took the ACT/SAT for all the states.

What do you see? For those that can’t stand the suspense, you will notice that not all students take the ACT/SAT. Iowa, for example, has a small percentage of students taking these tests. This small percentage of students score very well and are obviously college bound. How does that compare to Georgia? Well at least 70% of more of our students take the ACT/SAT and they aren’t all college bound in the traditional sense. Perhaps they will do better in vocational education. I think that vocational education is an honest way to go. How many people with doctorate degrees can fix your car, or your plumbing, or drive thousands of miles to deliver goods?

For the record, ALL kids have issues. So what makes the difference? The answer…involved parents.

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@Jeff, thanks for sharing. You call is underlying racism. It’s not just the white people. Many black people will not send their kids to a school that is too black and they use the same arguement of seeking diversity. On the surface it sound pretty valid, but it really comes down to culture and conduct. Not African American culture, thug culture. Many black parents have made that clear on this blog. Look at your AP classes and ask yourself if that is not a track for mostly white students. Would you please and report back to us?

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Poverty probably isn’t significant as a factor in a student’s SAT score. My childhood family was among the poorest in Brantley County, GA, but in 1978 I scored 1240 (out of a possible 1600) on the SAT. That was BEFORE recentering. Recentering would have added another 100 points. Additionally renormalizing to a 2400-possible-points scoring system would have brought my score up to 2010 (points, not the year).

Legend: Ranking in district. School name, 2009 average SAT score, White, Asian, Hispanic, Black.
The latter four numbers are percentages of the total student enrollment.

The ATLANTA high schools don’t have much to brag about. Here are its top-scoring three high schools.

1. Grady, 1498, 27, 1, 3, 69.
2. North Atlanta, 1375, 15, 3, 15, 67.
3. Benjamin Mays, 1342, 0, 0, 2, 98.

The rest of the Atlanta high schools are stuck around the 1100s and 1200s.

DEKALB COUNTY.

1. Chamblee, 1662, 26, 10, 8, 56.
2. Lakeside, 1598, 43, 9, 13, 36.
3. DeKalb School of the Arts, 1589, 27, 3, 3, 67.
4. Dunwoody, 1533, 42, 6, 14, 37.
5. Druid Hills, 1522, 29, 10, 7, 54.

COBB COUNTY has 7 high schools having an average score on the 2009 SAT higher than Atlanta’s Grady High.

1. Walton, 1722, 77, 15, 3, 5.
2. Lassiter, 1658, 84, 4, 4, 8.
3. Pope, 1656, 84, 6, 3, 7.
4. Wheeler, 1640, 41, 9, 10, 40.
5. Harrison, 1596, 88, 2, 2, 8.
6. Kennesaw Mountain, 1551, 67, 4, 8, 20.
7. Kell, 1500, 70, 4, 8, 18.

FULTON COUNTY has 9 high schools having an average score on the 2009 SAT higher than Atlanta’s Grady High.

1. Northview, 1722, 57, 34, 3, 7.
2. Riverwood, 1688, 55, 3, 20, 22.
3. Alpharetta, 1686, 60, 15, 6, 18.
4. Chattahoochee, 1678, 63, 19, 6, 12.
5. Roswell, 1671, 65, 5, 13,17.
6. Milton, 1657, 84, 4, 4, 7.
7. Centennial, 1614, 59, 5, 13, 23.
8. Connected Academy, 1563, 72, 0, 0, 28 (a very small school)
9. North Springs, 1545, 34, 3, 11, 51.

FORSYTH COUNTY. Apparently, every high school in Forsyth County had an average score on the 2009 SAT than did Grady High in Atlanta. Yes, all four of them.

1. South Forsyth, 1622, 80, 7, 8, 4.
2. North Forsyth, 1542, 91, 0, 7, 0.
3. West Forsyth, 1528, 88, 2, 7, 3.
4. Forsyth Central, 1503, 82, 1, 15, 2.

As far as I know, neither Cobb County nor Fulton County has “dumped” a third of its high school enrollment through the “Alternative School→Dropout Misreported as Transfer” mechanism, as Atlanta did between 2003 and 2005.

Certainly, I’ve picked out the best schools in each of the four districts. But I have no idea where you are coming up with the Atlanta schools whose SAT scores show that they educate better than schools in any of these other counties.

Of course, I ~do~ have an idea why your informant did not report the Georgia average SAT score for black students alongside the Georgia average SAT score for white students. If you’re going to talk about race, then you should never neglect comparisons such as that one.

Furthermore, I find that statewide average for white students to be suspiciously low, and therefore possibly erroneous, if I assume your source used the new SAT scoring system that has a perfect test score of 2400 points, rather than the one that was in place when I took the SAT, which had a perfect score of 1600 points.

Your source should have been more clear which she was using when she said, “The statewide SAT average for all white students was 1042 in 2008-09 and 1040 in 2007-08.”

The average SAT score for Whites was right around 1040 in the 1600-possible-points system. I can’t imagine why it would remain at that level when the switch came to the 2400-possible-points system. The system in place for rating these high schools for average SAT score was 2400-possible-points, and your informant would be misbehaving if she were intentionally swapping them around in a statistical shell game.

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@David Sims:

Check the links I posted November 19th, 2010. 4:19 pm. The verbal + math average of Grady’s white students is 20 points higher than Northview’s white students. Black students lower Grady’s overall average; asian students raise Northview’s overall average.

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Jeff, do you think that “thug culture” adversely impacts the academic achievement of any students at GHS?

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@Dr. Spinks, I do not think that the “thug culture” at my school hinders anyone’s academic progress, mainly because the entire thing is exaggerated. There are people who may negatively influence other students, even academically, with this culture, but there seems to be a misconception that thugs are running the public schools here. Beyond flat-brimmed caps and saggy jeans, most of what outsiders associate it with is virtually nonexistent. People don’t bring guns to school or make drug deals in the hallway like some concerned parents may think; for the most part, it’s just students going about their daily academic business. So yes, the culture may inhibit some students’ academic achievement, but those are only the students who go actively looking for it, and go out of their way to become a part of it. And to the parents, if your child manages to get caught up in that, then the fault wouldn’t be on the school system, it would be on the lack of supervision that the children got from their own parents.

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@Jeff, thank you for sharing and being honest. Especially about the AP classes not being very diverse.
@Henry W. Grady, You are missing reality. Decatur does not compare to any urban school for obvious reasons. The white students at Dekalb are found at Lakeside, Dunwoody, Chamblee and Druid Hills, all which have strong parental involvement and accountability. Most white kids in APS are at Grady or North Atlanta, only. Those schools have super PTA groups that advocate that raise money and advocate directly to the school system. Where does that leave the rest of intown Atlanta? Lie on your address, private, move, or get a job at APS so you can send your kids to Inman and Grady. How about that reality check? Are you still drinking the Kumbaya Kool Aid?

This is not really black versus white. Black people do not want to attend their community school and work getting their kid to Grady or North Atlanta.

Jeff, how many class mates do you know that are lying to attend Grady? My daughter knows many.

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That’s exactly my point! These schools are exactly where they are because of the resources that their community puts into them. And these are largely the schools that white parents are running away from. Plus, don’t you think it says something that so many kids are trying to attend these schools? These schools are a testament to the fact that urban public education can work.

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Don’t hate on white families leaving Grady. Many are leaving because of the dysfunctional board at APS. Those leaving Grady to go to private schools are white and also black. Hate on the APS board and the cheating administration. Governor elect Deal, please dissolve APS and get us those vouchers you promised. That way I can afford to take my daughter to Woodward to join her other ex-Grady friends. Is that selfish also?

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@Jeff, Thank you for your candor. As a fellow parent, I don’t blame those that are lying to attend Grady. My daughters will be fine taking the AP classes and I am glad we can share our great school with those that are not so fortunate. That is why I do not turn them in. That is unselfish of us to tolerate more students in the AP classes knowing that some are lying. That validates Henry W. Grady’s point, does it not? Besides, it is the school district’s responsibilty to make sure all schools are being transformed into high performing school, not ours.

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@Long time, I fully understand parental involvement makes an impact. But, should those that excersise school choice be considered selfish or carry guilt as @Henry W. Grady says?

Some communities don’t have the stay at home moms to organize these meetings and do all that fundraising. Who is responsible for running the schools, parents or the school system? Why don’t they throw the resources and money to all schools the way they do to Carver? Parents are not organized and fundraising like they are at Grady and North Atlanta. If there were more Carvers, then we would not be so crowded at Grady.

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@Jeff, you ARE drinking the same Kumbaya Kool Aid as Henry W. Grady, maybe it’s out of the same pitcher.

Are you saying it is more important to educate the disadvantaged over my own? That is ludacrous.

@Jeff said “If the middle/upper class white students zoned for Maynard Jackson (which there are many of) attended their school, students would be flocking there as well, because of the parent involvement that would come with it. I am not about to start arguing Henry W. Grady’s point all over again, but having involved parents at a school will not only benefit their own children, but, perhaps MORE IMPORTANTLY, it will benefit the disadvantaged students as well”

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Sorry about the couple of typos, “very”, “one at an HBCU”, “these” kids, …” Profiteers who put in”. Got too fast with the thoughts, fingers did not keep up. Forgive me, will proof if I return to comment again.

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Jeff, thanks for your comments. You provide a student perspective on Grady. My inquiry about the influence of “thug culture” at Grady arises from my experiences in Augusta-area middle and high schools. There a “thug culture” characterized by widespread indifference to learning, disrespect for one’s self and others, as well as disruption of instructional activities was prevalent. Such a culture, in my view, had to inhibit academic learning, particularly among kids without a strong family to help them resist it. You and your schoolmates at Grady are fortunate to be spared the more destructive aspects of “thug culture.”

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@Henry W. Grady, Can you check to see if the DOE provides test scores on a scale meauring parental selfishness? The audacity of you to infer white parents are selfish for not raising the kids of the disadvantaged. How do these disadvantaged families contact you? You can feed, clothe and tutor these kids since you are so unselfish. Henry, you are white? Otherwise it wouldn’t count.

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Maureen, I believe you live ITP, no? I also believe you’ve not ventured out the these OTP areas you so readily criticize. I live in Dunwoody in the NUMBER ONE school district in this city and there are MANY minorities who ALSO attend the schools. Knowing there would be minorities didn’t deter us at all. We hoped to find a home with a backyard (which Decatur generally doesn’t have) and a multi-cultural experience. If you don’t believe me, come out here. Take 285 to Chamblee-Dunwoody and turn left. Keep driving and see for yourself.
Also, to Bill’s point (posted below), I whole-heartedly agree. I know you’ve been doing this almost twenty years, but a LOT has changed in GA, including White flight. Some of us OTP really do RESPECT African-Americans and other minorities. And if I had been the journalist with your quill, I would have certainly factored them into your “statistics”. That, in itself, says a lot about you. Now let’s quit with the White flight business, please. We’ve worked really hard on race relations. Let’s keep going and not create false, poorly created stats to inflame the public.
(Bill’s comment:)
I have to take issue with the notion of “white flight”. This was the case from the 1960’s through the 1980’s. In the 1990’s, things began to change. In the last decade, Atlanta has seen more growth in white residents, and many suburbs have seen more growth in minorities. The notion that the city is black and the suburbs are white is increasingly outdated. We all live in the same metropolitan area, and mostly face the same problems. It is a shame we cannot work together to solve them.

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No amount of huffing about the quality of Cobb or North Fulton high schools (which I agree perform very well) changes the truth underlying Maureen’s blog post — that SAT scores of white students attending APS schools exceed the SAT sores of white students in all of those schools. This fact cannot be disputed and does not require a degree in rocket science — the numbers are available for all to review at the DOE website.
David Simms claims that the higher overall average SAT scores for all students at those schools somehow prove “that the white students at those schools are being better taught than the white students in Grady High in Atlanta.” Really? The facts — as shown in the DOE’s own numbers — are that the average white student SAT (math plus verbal) score at Grady for the last reported school year was 1161 — higher than the white student averages at every one of the schools listed by David: Walton (1159), Lassiter (1129), Pope (1126), Harrison (1085), Roswell (1146), Milton (1119), and South Forsyth (1099). Moreover, in none of the last three years have the white student average SAT scores at any of those schools ever equaled the average white student scores at Grady.
Anyone should feel free to argue that there are economic and demographic reasons totally unrelated to school quality that account for the fact that white students at Grady High School and in the Atlanta Public Schools outperform white students in every other school system in the state of Georgia (with the exception of Decatur City). As Already Sheared has pointed out, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn’t mean they are entitled to make up their own facts. And the fact that gave rise to Maureen’s blog post is that white students in Decatur, Atlanta and DeKalb County are, on average, the top-performing white students on SATs in the entire state. That may make lots of folks on here unhappy, but it does not make it less of a fact.

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Should say “Great posts…”

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@Roswell Mom, BINGO! You win. Grady does have a communications magnet that has recruited the brightest kids in all Atlanta, black and white. Since these numbers are about the white students, the magnet white students are going to schore very high. At least for now as APS has done is doing away with magnets. This Freshman class is the first to not recruit students city wide.

The only high schools which have entrance requirements are at Carver. They are not called magnets schools but they do select the students based on an auduiton or a minimum CRCT score coming in.

The current SAT scores in one or two of the schools of Carver are actually the highest in all APS.

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@Inman Mom, That may be true at Inman. However, Dr. Murray at Grady will register long time friends outside of the Grady zone, friends from APS, kids of high level APS employees. When I drop off my daughter every day we see so many plates from Clayton County and others. Very few have an AKA sorority sticker on a decent car heading downtown to work at the APS palace.

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“BINGO”? Grady Parent? Are you really even going to suggest that the reason for the high test scores at Grady and APS is because Grady has “recruited” away the “brightest kids” from all over the city into the communications magnet? Then how do you account for the fact that the average SAT scores for all white students in APS — not just at Grady — still beat those at all of the other districts in the state except for Decatur? Or that the most recent white student SAT scores at North Atlanta (the only APS high school other than Grady with any significant white enrollment) also top those at all of the great Cobb and North Fulton schools?
And who is recruiting whom? The miniscule number of white out-of-zone transfers into Grady for the magnet is dwarfed by the number of in-town white kids that are “recruited” away from APS by private schools like Westminster, Pace, Lovett, Paideia, Woodward and Galloway — most of which, unlike the public schools, restrict admission to students who can already prove (through testing, interviews and checkbooks) that they are already among the “brightest” students before they are even admitted.
What is amazing is that the white student test scores and achievement, at Grady in particular and APS in general, still blow away the rest of the state, even after all of these “brightest” high-income white students are syphoned off to all those private schools. Can you imagine what the APS white student SAT averages would be for Atlanta if those private students instead attended APS schools, given that the current crop of APS white students (consisting, I gather, only of children of “guilty white liberals”) already leads the state?

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@Henry Grady: “@ Inman Mom, I hat to even have to address this here, as it really carries no bearing to the discussion at hand, but the assertions made by Grady Parent about Dr. Murray are completely unfounded, and again, whether they be true or not, have zero bearing on the data in question. The requirements at Inman are the same as they are at every APS school at every level. This certainly does not eliminate people from living out of zone, but that is an issue for another time and place. And again, I hate to address it here, but AKA is a prestigious black sorority… take that as you will, but i’m skeptical that he/she means anything positive by it.”

Who made you the board moderator? Thank you for keeping me on topic…I guess. <>

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As This is Mrs. Norman Maine said way back at the beginning, “facts do not sway this group.”

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I had promised myself that I was done commenting here, but this entire conversation infuriates me. I am saying with all the respect that I can muster that many of the commenters on here, in particular Grady Parent, are terribly misinformed. First and foremost, many of the digressions that go on here are irrelevant to the topic at hand, and seem to me to just be attacking APS (I don’t care if my classmates are in zone or out of zone, and it’s definitely not because Dr. Murray is just letting his friends send their kids here). Not only that, but you are not reading the valid arguments presented against your points, instead choosing to reiterate your grossly misconceived and oftentimes flat-out wrong comments, which lack any sort of factual backing. The facts were presented in Ms. Downey’s article (which, although submitted by a reader, are on the DOE website and are 100 percent accurate), and they show that white students in Decatur, APS, and Dekalb score higher on the SAT than white students in any other school district in the state. Those are INDISPUTABLE. Interpret them how you may, but it suggests that no matter what public school you send your child to, they will get just about the same test scores. Say what you want about “thug culture”, but I can say as a student that it affects neither my nor any other students’ education. It sickens me to see an insightful article tainted by the countless comments of people either convinced that public schools are bad because their children do not need them, or people trying to justify their own racism, and even more so when it comes from someone who sends their own child to Grady. I can see that you were offended because you thought you were called selfish for caring about your child’s education over less fortunate children’s. But what this article is proving is that it makes NO DIFFERENCE to send your kid to North Atlanta than it does Walton as far as your child’s education goes. So yes, it would be selfish of you to go out of your way to move away from the kids who need your help the most, considering that your child gets the same outcome regardless, with no extra effort from you. I think that I can speak for a vast majority of the other students in APS in saying that it is appalling for someone that is the parent of an APS student to be so adamantly against the inner-city school systems.

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@Jeff, How about ignore both of those? Good night. We have school tomorrow early morning. Your writing is quite impressive. Are you sure you really are a student in an APS school?

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Va-Hi Family, Good observation on the number of white kids north of I-20. My daughters class has many kids from south of I-20 in Grant Park. Where do you suspect these kids will attend high school after theh redistricting is done? I doubt they will attend their zoned school. My daughters elementary school, Mary Lin, is bursting at the seams. I hear that it will be rezoned also to send kids in to Toomer elementary and possibly Inman Park to Hope. Have you heard this also? That would allow kids that will meet in high school to get to know eachother earlier and the white kids can help the black kids learn, as many posters have said here. I am sure the premise is the same. White kids will test the same regardless of their urban or suburban schools.

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Former Springdale Park Elementary Parent,

Once again you are uninformed. Grady doesn’t have the control you think it does. We request teachers when our population reaches a certain level and must depend on APS to provide those educators. It’s not as easy as, “Hey, we need four more teachers, let’s fill the spots.”. Also, it’s difficult to find new teachers in critical needs areas such as science, math, and special education so that compounds with the problems. So chalking it up to the administration at Grady bearing the overall responsibility of making the school larger and hiring teachers is a complete form of ignorance on your part. As I’ve stated, you’ve abandoned public education for your “better” private schools. Private schools have a few advantages, they can choose the students they want, drop the students that aren’t performing well (especially those with special needs), and get rid of behavioral problems with no questions asked. Why not look at the system of education as a whole (nationally) and see where it trickles down to public education and it’s ability to bog down the process. Oh yeah, that would require empathy on your part and unfortunately your elitist views don’t allow for that type of reflection. Come to Grady and see the problems we face just like any other school. Support your local schools to make them better. Stop being an elitist jerk and look at the whole picture. You are yet another product of the manipulation of the popular press to sensationalize the data without truly understanding it.

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“The fact that you would put Morehouse College and Morris Brown College in the same sentence is utterly ridiculous.”

@Kevin, again, someone making broad statements about schools in which they know very little about.

@RJ, I went to Morehouse and am very familiar with the history of the AUC institutions. You are definitely talking about the glory days of the 60’s when it comes to Morris Brown. I won’t belabor the financial issues and accreditation issues of Morris Brown, but i’m sure that you are aware that Morehouse and Spelman come to mind first when it comes to academic reputation.

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Have you noticed that any race related topic results in huge hits on this blog? Because race matters, the achievement gap will never close in the state of Georgia; therefore, this state’s educational rank will NEVER rise. GET USE to 48th, 49th and 50th.

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