White flight: Are parents running to less successful schools?
Many suburbanites on this blog contend that they would never send their children to city of Atlanta or DeKalb schools and that’s why they now live in Forsyth or Cobb.
Here is an interesting response to that common assertion from a reader who looked at test data that suggests the state’s highest achieving white students are in metro systems, including Atlanta , Decatur, Marietta and DeKalb.
Take a look at this reader’s research:
I have been crunching some numbers from the state DOE report cards and thought I might share with you some interesting results.
In response to the constant attacks on the quality of schooling offered by APS in particular and urban public schools in general, I have often read or heard comments (many by your blog commenters) that they would never consider sending their own children to Atlanta schools and/or that they have moved out of the city to the suburbs rather than do so.
What continues to interest me, particularly when addressing the subject of “white flight” from Atlanta and certain other urban systems, is how little evidentiary basis there is to back up most of these decisions, particularly when made by middle or upper-middle class white parents.
So I decided to try to address the question: “Based on available data, which Georgia school districts provide the best educational results for white students?”
I assumed, for purposes of this exercise, that SAT scores provide the best proxy available for “educational end product.” (For obvious reasons, I decided not to use CRCT scores or graduation rates, which many would contend are highly suspect).
If white flight out of Atlanta schools were to make rational sense, would not one expect that SAT scores for white students in suburban systems would greatly outstrip their Atlanta counterparts who are “left behind” in such a failed system? [Caveat: The state web site makes it impossible to show all individual district subgroup SAT scores at one time, so I have had to go district-by-district and have not looked at every district in the state, but am prepared to do so if you find this topic interesting enough to write about. Also, the DOE website does not provide a breakdown by family income level, so comparisons of scores on that basis cannot be done.]
My preliminary review shows as follows:
In 2008-09 (the most recent data included at the state website), the Georgia system with the highest average SAT scores (math and verbal) for its white students appears to be Decatur City (1203); second is Atlanta City (1165); third is Marietta City (1150); and fourth is DeKalb County (1145).
For 2007-08, the top four appear to have been (1) Atlanta (1174); (2) Decatur (1166); (3) DeKalb (1136); and (4) Fulton County (1108). The statewide SAT average for all white students was 1042 in 2008-09 and 1040 in 2007-08
I know from prior discussions with many white parents (especially those whose children do not attend APS schools) that these results will strike some as unbelievable — that white students in Atlanta, Decatur and DeKalb public schools perform better on SATs than white students in Fulton, Cobb, Gwinnett, Cherokee, Fayette, Forsyth and possibly (probably?) every other system in the state of Georgia!
Now, this data certainly do not prove that APS, Decatur and DeKalb are doing a “better job” or providing a “better education” to their white students than every other district in the state — far from it. What is equally or more likely is that other critical demographic factors at play (especially parent education and income levels) are more favorable for white students in those districts than in most others.
Similarly, demographic factors (especially high poverty rates) among its black students probably skews the SAT scores for those APS and DeKalb students in the opposite direction.
What the data do suggest, however, is that middle class parents (white or minority) who conclude – based only on a school’s or a system’s overall test scores – that they should buy their houses in another district or send their kids to private schools rather than APS (or DeKalb or Decatur) may only be fooling themselves about the perceived benefits for their own children.
I do believe that there are some gross misconceptions out there about how well or poorly some systems (especially APS) are doing in educating students, and that your column would be a great place to show that at least some of those misconceptions are not supported by any data.
By Maureen Downey, AJC Get Schooled blog
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234 comments Add your comment
AlreadySheared
November 19th, 2010
4:19 pm
@Warrior Woman:
The author use DISAGGREGATED scores to compare the scores of white students.
For example, in 2008 – 2009 school year (”recent sat/ verbal + math”):
Northview (listed as #1 in the link you posted)
286 white students posted an average SAT score of 1141. The school’s overall average was increased by 184 asian students’ scores averaging 1234
http://reportcard2009.gaosa.org/(S(mmpikm45xor0t3rveu4qbz45))/k12/reports.aspX?ID=660:203&TestKey=SAT&TestType=st9
At Atlanta Public Schools’ Grady High School, 57 white students posted an average score of 1161 – 20 points higher than Northview. The school’s overall average was decreased by 99 black students’ scores averaging 880.
http://reportcard2009.gaosa.org/(S(swwyin55vwi5hv55opz32mfm))/k12/reports.aspX?ID=761:4560&TestKey=SAT&TestType=st9
Repeating my previous Senator Moynihan quote:
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
AlreadySheared
November 19th, 2010
4:22 pm
Umm, “The author USED”
RJ
November 19th, 2010
4:31 pm
@Grady Parent, I know of no such thing. Perhaps parents send their kid to Grady because of the programs it offers students. Perhaps the school in their district doesn’t offer that same program. You don’t have to lie about your address if your zone school didn’t make AYP. You are legally allowed to attend an out of zone school. Also, you can apply to attend school within your district by a given date in July. So you see, there are many ways around attending your zone school.
I can agree about some of the schools in SW though. There has been Black Flight of middle class blacks in the city of Atlanta. This is due to the negative culture of the schools. Many have moved to South Fulton where there are schools that aren’t nearly as bad. Personally, I prefer for my kids to experience diversity.
Regarding central office staff and their choice of schools, wouldn’t you do the same? Every job has perks. I have no problem with it.
RJ
November 19th, 2010
4:32 pm
That should’ve said that you can apply to send your child to ANY school within your district…
Horsie
November 19th, 2010
4:35 pm
Genetics. Period.
AlreadySheared
November 19th, 2010
4:37 pm
@Former Springdale,
Of course, the dynamic I’m using is “We feel so lucky to be at (our intown Atlanta public school), because it could be so much worse!”
Ta ta for now – I gotta go to my “guilty white liberal” groupthink class.
Gail
November 19th, 2010
4:37 pm
Grady Parent
Actually, I am all for vouchers. My son has an SB10 scholarship. I never thought I’d say I was glad he has a disability, but it has helped his educational opportunities immensely. Aren’t those ladies at APS central office too old to have school-aged children? When Beverly Hall came to my daughter’s high school for one of those Town Halls/Fireside Chats or whatever, I asked about all the emphasis being placed on the new schools at Carver (this was several years ago). What I got was a condescending smirk about how parents at the so called good schools always complain about resources going to the poorer schools and parents at the poorer schools complaining that the so called good schools get all the resources. I took that as a “shut up and quit complaining” comment which I did not appreciate. Also, at all the school meetings I attended during that time where district representatives spoke, they just seemed to be giving lip service and unwilling to address any real questions.
jason
November 19th, 2010
5:12 pm
Haha… some of these comments are the best examples of cognitive dissonance I’ve seen in a long time.
Henry W. Grady
November 19th, 2010
5:13 pm
There are a number of comments posted here expressing a wide variety of opinions. It seems to me, however, that there are two main issues at play: 1.) the perception of inner city culture and 2.) addressing underperformance by NON-white students in urban public schools. Given the data presented by Ms. Downey, it seems apparent to me, as several people on both sides of the issue have noted, that white students from a supportive middle-class background can and will perform well in either environment. Given this knowledge, it seems that the only possible reason that parents might have for uprooting and leaving for another school system then would be motivated by grossly exaggerated and, to be perfectly frank, racist perceptions of a majority-black educational environment. Several of you have pointed out, quite legitimately, that all this squabbling over the performance of white public school students seems to brush over the major problem we have in this state, and particularly in our urban public schools, of underperformance by minority students. However, in searching for a solution to this problem, these two are undeniably linked. As white middle-class families move out of the district, so do their tax dollars and resources, and it’s no secret that school funding is directly related to student success. How could we possibly expect urban school districts to improve while at the same time decreasing the resources available to them? If we accept the findings (and the opinions expressed by most commenters on this blog) that middle-class white students are likely to succeed regardless, why would any parent that was truly concerned about the education problem in Atlanta’s inner city schools remove their valuable resources that could be used for the betterment of their entire community from the equation? This isn’t simply about convincing white families to stay urban, but rather it is about convincing everyone that we all have a responsibility to our community. Why selfishly run away from our problems when we have the resources at our disposal to benefit everyone?
Former Springdale Park Elementary Parent
November 19th, 2010
5:21 pm
Crack? Who said anything about crack? That’s not the drug I was thinking about, but I must really be behind the times.
Remember, a sign of intelligence is the ability to hold two apparently contradictory points of view in your head at the same time. It is true that Grady and Inman have some very strong performers, and that’s a credit to those teachers and those kids. It is also true that Grady is overcrowded, poorly managed, and allows too many students (I love the term “free range kids,” by the way, but am dismayed at just how accurate it is) to behave in ways that damage the high school experience for other children.
You can have some great programs and be a mediocre, not-worth-attending school, just as you can have three or four star players on a last-place baseball team.
Questioning Logic of School
November 19th, 2010
5:30 pm
[...] [...]
What is really being said here « South Dekalb
November 19th, 2010
5:50 pm
[...] What is really being said here November 19, 2010 Leave a comment Go to comments White flight: Are parents running to less successful schools? | Get Schooled. [...]
Lost faith in APS
November 19th, 2010
6:08 pm
@Henry W. Grady, The premise that white kids will do well and therefore should not bail on the inner city is solely based on these SAT scores. That’s bunk and you know it. There’s more to the school experience than a test. Even black families don’t want their kids in all black schools. Hmm, why is it OK for them
to say that, like @RJ, but white’s can’t? Who’s going to raise the bar with all those white clubs and teams? Lacrosse, ultimate, chess, robotics, mock trial, etc. And whose PTSA is going to raise the money for it?
We know who. Your kid won’t and you did not attend all non-white schools. Please stop your preaching and passing judgement on people who are not guilted by your rhetoric. Besides, APS is about to lose it’s accreditation anyways. Who will be left at your school?
Another flaw in your example is that when people move the tax money leaves too. It doesn’t. The next owner of the property pays the taxes regardless if they have kids.
Now, it’s true those supportive resources are gone, but who can blame them for losing faith and any trust with APS? This is just the tip of the iceberg with the messes at APS. The new Republican Governor with his Libertarian transition team is going to clean house at APS. That will be some serious reform!
JANINE
November 19th, 2010
6:11 pm
OK all…..What is the explantation for a teacher who has 30 students in his/her class…[let’s say it’s Math/Algebra/Geometry. Of the 30 students who take the standard end of course test, 60 to 75 % of the class pass, 10% make and excellent score. I have a hard time processing that the teacher gets blamed for her/his teaching ability because 25% of the students do not pass.
WHY???
Geroge
November 19th, 2010
6:11 pm
“White flight: Are parents running to less successful schools?”
Those fleeing majority Asian schools in California are running from successful schools to mediocre schools. In Georgia it may be a different story.
Ed Johnson
November 19th, 2010
6:59 pm
@mad_russian, your “All talk and no action” prompts me to post this.
@APS Teacher, as does your “[APS] places all its emphasis on testing and not learning.”
Via E-mail
November 18, 2010
Subject: Come walk against CRCT targets
Should you see an idiot pacing up and down the west side of Central Avenue, between Trinity Avenue and Garnett Street, at APS central office, downtown Atlanta, Wednesday, November 24, 2010, the day before Thanksgiving Day, between the hours of 11:00 AM and noon, it will be me.
Atlanta public schools once again are under heavy-handed pressure to drive CRCT student performance to mandated targets. Is there no recall or perception of why – again, why – the massive 2009 CRCT cheating scandal happened in our schools? Is there no understanding that pressure naturally builds up, over time, and eventually erupts in quite predictable ways?
Why would anyone believe the application of constant, heavy-handed pressure to raise test scores will lead to anything but crises, decimation of APS as a learning system, and unrecoverable damage to the lives of all involved, including the life of the one who sets the targets? Why would anyone believe heavy-handed pressure substitutes for leadership?
The new CRCT targets make it undeniably clear APS continues to be without leadership in the human compassion and human ethics aspects of its superintendency. The lead-up to, and ultimate eruption of, the massive 2009 CRCT cheating is the evidence, plain and simple. And massive the cheating was: 256,779 student answers changed from wrong to right!
Charts in my report at this link – http://tinyurl.com/2dhcyfo – plainly show cheating erupting in many classrooms, in many schools, throughout APS. Why would anyone incite a repeat of this?
I shall walk to urge our Atlanta Board of Education to institute leadership for the Office of Superintendent and to rescind test score targets – excuse me, “student performance goals.”
Your company will be a pleasure and appreciated, as would the company of others you invite.
Best regards,
Ed Johnson
Advocate for Quality in Public Education
Atlanta GA
(404) 505-8176
edwjohnson@aol.com
“Many people have expressed disappointment with performance of the present K-12 schools. A publication from the National Academy of Engineering observed, “…. another $650 billion has been spent on US public schools while the performance of its students on standardized science tests of those about to graduate declined further.” But who is answering the question of why results have declined further? I believe that we have here a syndrome that we often identify in corporations through system dynamics modeling–the steps that people are taking in the belief they will solve a problem are actually the causes of that problem, and the more they do in an attempt to remedy a situation the worse they make it.”
– Jay W. Forrester, Professor Emeritus of Management, Sloan School, MIT, 11/15/2010
unbelievable
November 19th, 2010
8:40 pm
White flight: Are parents running to less successful schools?
A: This data is so skewed, so the answer is no. This is a parenting, media, and culture issue.
Hey Teacher
November 19th, 2010
9:09 pm
ALL of the schools mentioned on this blog have a high degree of parental involvement. If we remove the schools with active PTA’s from both camps (urban and suburban), I wonder if the SAT scores would look similar for those groups?
What I don’t find interesting on this blog is all of the school-bashing going on. My-school-is-better-than-your-school serves no useful purpose in what should be the collective goal for all of us — making education better across the state.
Teaching Family
November 20th, 2010
7:11 am
@ Henry Grady: I appreciate your well-thought out post. As a parent at a school in North Fulton that is experiencing white flight due to a significant influx of non-white, impoverished students, your observation that supported, middle class students do well academically regardless of environment is helpful. I am debating the merits of leaving my own child at her public school. The one area that I would argue with your post is over why most white families leave. For most, I don’t think it’s blatant racism due to becoming the minority race in a school. I think its the impact that poverty brings to a school – the ghetto language, discipline problems, the widening spectrum of academic levels in one classroom.
I feel compelled to support my local community school by keeping my child in the school, along with the resources I can offer of volunteer time and money. But, I have a limit. At what point does my responsibility to shield my 8 year-old daughter from obsence language and classroom disruptions trump the idealism of supporting your local school.
My daughter is a big fish in a little pond, flourishing academically and developing leadership skills. She stands out in her school. But, she’s swimming with needy, hungry, tired, undisciplined sharks.
No name used
November 20th, 2010
7:23 am
Henry W. Grady said this:As white middle-class families move out of the district, so do their tax dollars and resources, and it’s no secret that school funding is directly related to student success. How could we possibly expect urban school districts to improve while at the same time decreasing the resources available to them? If we accept the findings (and the opinions expressed by most commenters on this blog) that middle-class white students are likely to succeed regardless, why would any parent that was truly concerned about the education problem in Atlanta’s inner city schools remove their valuable resources that could be used for the betterment of their entire community from the equation? This isn’t simply about convincing white families to stay urban, but rather it is about convincing everyone that we all have a responsibility to our community. Why selfishly run away from our problems when we have the resources at our disposal to benefit everyone?
Does anyone notice that he is talking about white families being responsible for the economic downfall of the schools they leave? He is saying it is selfish to move. What about the parents that are left? Do they not have jobs to pay into the school system? Why is it the responsibility of white (or any ) to stay in a system where they feel their students are learning bad habits or not getting a good education so that the OTHER children (others as in in not that parents child) can get the benefit of their taxdollars? Personally, you could not pay me to live ITP. I prefer rural areas and values and habits. It has nothing to do with color, as we have blacks here too, and we get along fine. OTP the culture of thuggery and low expectations and general city life is greatly reduced. It is not selfish to want something different for your children and to take your resources with you towards that end. If the parents that want to stay in that district are concerned with the performance and the “whhite flight” taking their money with them, then do something-like get a job that lets them pay more into the system to benefit their own children. Don’t complain about “oh whitey is taking their money and we need it” because it is not just white families leaving. What is selfish, Mr. Grady, is expecting one family to stay at their detriment, in order to benefit another. The resources of each family are not community property to be doled out “from each according to their ability and to each according to their need” That is called Marxism and has no place in America. I
looking
November 20th, 2010
7:44 am
I’m looking at private schools for my kids after 1 1/2 years in public school. While there are many things I like about our school I think it’s time to more on. My son needs to be at a school with a smaller teacher/student ratio. Our school also does not have art and the kids don’t go outside enough. I also think there is too much testing. I was very discouraged wth 3 out of 5 board members (DeKalb) getting re-elected. We may return to public for high school.
I do agree that Decatur schools are some of the best. I have friends that pay tutition to send their son to a Decatur school.
Concerned 2
November 20th, 2010
8:25 am
Yesterday at about 4:20 pm, I attempted to drive north on ML King passing Hamilton Holmes drive on my right. Hundreds of teens were lining both sides of the streets. APD and MARTA police were along the streets. I counted about 12 squad cars. The teens were confronting the police and each other. I learned from an APS bus driver that there was to be gang fighting and retaliation between Douglass, Mays, Forrest Hills and Washington High Schools. The Hamilton Holmes MARTA station had been closed to the teens. My cell phone starting ringing and friends started warning me to avoid the area. An APD helicopter was circling overhead. I finally got through and I just shook my head. Teens were being handcuffed left and right. We didn’t see it on the news. I don’t know why but I do know why families of means, no matter what the color, pull their children out of inner city schools. I learned that a child from one of the schools had been pulled off a MARTA bus the day before and beaten by a group of girls from a rival school. Our children are not safe. They have hired non disciplinarians as administrators in these high schools who are overpaid. And, poverty and ignorance has not gone away.
Divide and Conquer
November 20th, 2010
8:31 am
I was educated at predominately white schools, black people, you are not missing anything. Instead of teenage pregnancies, their insurance pays for abortions (yes Republicans too), they can’t misbehave because the students are high off their ADHD meds or stolen prescriptions from grandma. They cottle their children and wonder why they return home with that degree from Emory, unemployed and lazy. We always think what the white man has is so much better, they are just people and have their own set of problems like anyone else. It is not about race but parenting…people should not feel guilty about choosing a better school just don’t choose a certain demographic because you may still lose the battle. White people started this racial structure, benefit from it, and then refuse to talk about.LOL If you like your own people, honestly I don’t have a problem with that, just don’t put any other race down because you prefer your own race or culture. I prefer my race but not because its better, but because its only human to identify with your kind. This PC stuff has got to stop because as long we are divided, then the real enemy goes untouched.
An American Patriot
November 20th, 2010
9:02 am
Well Maureen, you’ve probably gotten a pretty good cross section of people commenting on your question……White flight: Are parents running to less successful schools? Whatta you think?……have you received enough comments so you can form an opinion and share that opinion with your readers and commenters? I stand by what I’ve been saying most of the year……”The APS should be split between the southside and northside school and two seperate school systems formed with their own BOE’s”. The problems the southside schools have are so deeply rooted in the cultures and lack of community and parental support that their problems will not be solved anytime soon, no matter what is done…..and in the meantime, the northside schools are left to suffer because of it. Is this what the people of the City of Atlanta really want? This problem is making the whole city look stupid.
An American Patriot
November 20th, 2010
9:16 am
Atlanta Forward / Another View: Atlanta schools can’t afford to lose Hall……me thinks the reason “John Rice” has come out with this stance is…..”he doesn’t want to admit that GE Technology has thrown their money ($22M) down the toilet”.
Jeff
November 20th, 2010
10:41 am
I am a white student at a school in APS, and although many of the criticisms of inner-city schools I have seen commented may be valid, the bottom line is that there will be issues wherever your child goes to school. I have been to many suburban public schools, and I see the same types of problems and disruptions as at my school. If you care about your child’s education, stay involved and keep him or her motivated, and they will succeed. All I see from the inner-city schools is the added advantage of diversity and a chance to experience the real world instead of being sheltered from it for my entire life. If you parents want to make up excuses to move to the suburbs that is fine by me, but all I see here is people trying to make excuses for their racism.
READ
November 20th, 2010
11:00 am
**In response to those that think Georgia is truly at the bottom in terms of SAT/ACT scores.**
People, please consult your local library for “The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2010.” If you can’t find this particular one then look for previous years. Reference the stats for those standardized tests. There is a column that reports a percentage of students who actually took the ACT/SAT for all the states.
What do you see? For those that can’t stand the suspense, you will notice that not all students take the ACT/SAT. Iowa, for example, has a small percentage of students taking these tests. This small percentage of students score very well and are obviously college bound. How does that compare to Georgia? Well at least 70% of more of our students take the ACT/SAT and they aren’t all college bound in the traditional sense. Perhaps they will do better in vocational education. I think that vocational education is an honest way to go. How many people with doctorate degrees can fix your car, or your plumbing, or drive thousands of miles to deliver goods?
For the record, ALL kids have issues. So what makes the difference? The answer…involved parents.
Grady Parent
November 20th, 2010
11:06 am
@No Name Used, Thank you. I was so bothered by what Mr. Henry W. Grady said that I did not respond as that would have included adjectives that would have been filtered here. How dare he call parents selfish or attempt to make us feel guilty for wanting what is best for our own children. Our first responsibility is to our own children, not others. There is some level of civic or socitetal responsibility we all share, but not at the expense of our own. The assumption that white kids will be ok based on a SAT score is asinine.
The argument that less money is available to the school system because families leave is also asisnine. The next owner of the property pays those taxes. So please stop using this argument. Revenue will go down as the values of homes go down due to the corruption of APS and now the threat of losing accreditation. I hope Nathan Deal follows up on his campaing promise to support school choice, even vouchers in necesarry.
I would be in favor of magnet or theme schools that crossed geographic boundaries to mix these different economic levels of students throughout the city in elementary school. This would benefit all kids when they are young and in their formitive years. We don’t need the distractions in middle and high school. Grady parents are hoping we don’t make AYP again so we won’t be forced to take NCLB kids again.
Grady Parent
November 20th, 2010
11:13 am
@Jeff, thanks for sharing. You call is underlying racism. It’s not just the white people. Many black people will not send their kids to a school that is too black and they use the same arguement of seeking diversity. On the surface it sound pretty valid, but it really comes down to culture and conduct. Not African American culture, thug culture. Many black parents have made that clear on this blog. Look at your AP classes and ask yourself if that is not a track for mostly white students. Would you please and report back to us?
AlreadySheared
November 20th, 2010
1:37 pm
@Hey Teacher.
My apologies. In using data to try to cut through a smog of fear and ignorance, I did engage in something a bit too close to braggadocio. The point that I was trying to make is that there are some excellent intown schools in APS.
Your sentiment in favor of improving all schools everywhere is admirable, but I think this has to happen one student and one school at a time. Group excellence is an accumulation of individual excellence.
David Sims
November 20th, 2010
2:19 pm
Poverty probably isn’t significant as a factor in a student’s SAT score. My childhood family was among the poorest in Brantley County, GA, but in 1978 I scored 1240 (out of a possible 1600) on the SAT. That was BEFORE recentering. Recentering would have added another 100 points. Additionally renormalizing to a 2400-possible-points scoring system would have brought my score up to 2010 (points, not the year).
Legend: Ranking in district. School name, 2009 average SAT score, White, Asian, Hispanic, Black.
The latter four numbers are percentages of the total student enrollment.
The ATLANTA high schools don’t have much to brag about. Here are its top-scoring three high schools.
1. Grady, 1498, 27, 1, 3, 69.
2. North Atlanta, 1375, 15, 3, 15, 67.
3. Benjamin Mays, 1342, 0, 0, 2, 98.
The rest of the Atlanta high schools are stuck around the 1100s and 1200s.
DEKALB COUNTY.
1. Chamblee, 1662, 26, 10, 8, 56.
2. Lakeside, 1598, 43, 9, 13, 36.
3. DeKalb School of the Arts, 1589, 27, 3, 3, 67.
4. Dunwoody, 1533, 42, 6, 14, 37.
5. Druid Hills, 1522, 29, 10, 7, 54.
COBB COUNTY has 7 high schools having an average score on the 2009 SAT higher than Atlanta’s Grady High.
1. Walton, 1722, 77, 15, 3, 5.
2. Lassiter, 1658, 84, 4, 4, 8.
3. Pope, 1656, 84, 6, 3, 7.
4. Wheeler, 1640, 41, 9, 10, 40.
5. Harrison, 1596, 88, 2, 2, 8.
6. Kennesaw Mountain, 1551, 67, 4, 8, 20.
7. Kell, 1500, 70, 4, 8, 18.
FULTON COUNTY has 9 high schools having an average score on the 2009 SAT higher than Atlanta’s Grady High.
1. Northview, 1722, 57, 34, 3, 7.
2. Riverwood, 1688, 55, 3, 20, 22.
3. Alpharetta, 1686, 60, 15, 6, 18.
4. Chattahoochee, 1678, 63, 19, 6, 12.
5. Roswell, 1671, 65, 5, 13,17.
6. Milton, 1657, 84, 4, 4, 7.
7. Centennial, 1614, 59, 5, 13, 23.
8. Connected Academy, 1563, 72, 0, 0, 28 (a very small school)
9. North Springs, 1545, 34, 3, 11, 51.
FORSYTH COUNTY. Apparently, every high school in Forsyth County had an average score on the 2009 SAT than did Grady High in Atlanta. Yes, all four of them.
1. South Forsyth, 1622, 80, 7, 8, 4.
2. North Forsyth, 1542, 91, 0, 7, 0.
3. West Forsyth, 1528, 88, 2, 7, 3.
4. Forsyth Central, 1503, 82, 1, 15, 2.
As far as I know, neither Cobb County nor Fulton County has “dumped” a third of its high school enrollment through the “Alternative School→Dropout Misreported as Transfer” mechanism, as Atlanta did between 2003 and 2005.
Certainly, I’ve picked out the best schools in each of the four districts. But I have no idea where you are coming up with the Atlanta schools whose SAT scores show that they educate better than schools in any of these other counties.
Of course, I ~do~ have an idea why your informant did not report the Georgia average SAT score for black students alongside the Georgia average SAT score for white students. If you’re going to talk about race, then you should never neglect comparisons such as that one.
Furthermore, I find that statewide average for white students to be suspiciously low, and therefore possibly erroneous, if I assume your source used the new SAT scoring system that has a perfect test score of 2400 points, rather than the one that was in place when I took the SAT, which had a perfect score of 1600 points.
Your source should have been more clear which she was using when she said, “The statewide SAT average for all white students was 1042 in 2008-09 and 1040 in 2007-08.”
The average SAT score for Whites was right around 1040 in the 1600-possible-points system. I can’t imagine why it would remain at that level when the switch came to the 2400-possible-points system. The system in place for rating these high schools for average SAT score was 2400-possible-points, and your informant would be misbehaving if she were intentionally swapping them around in a statistical shell game.
Mathteacher2
November 20th, 2010
3:00 pm
@Teaching Family…
I can sympathize with you. We pulled our 9 year old from public school last year and put her in a private school. I teach public school and it was a heartwrenching decision to give up on our community public school, but we had had enough of the terrible language, the sexual references made by students, the classroom disruptions, etc. It was no easy decision but one we had to make. So far we have not regretted it. Good luck!!
AlreadySheared
November 20th, 2010
3:08 pm
@David Sims:
Check the links I posted November 19th, 2010. 4:19 pm. The verbal + math average of Grady’s white students is 20 points higher than Northview’s white students. Black students lower Grady’s overall average; asian students raise Northview’s overall average.
Jeff
November 20th, 2010
3:30 pm
@Grady Parent, along with many of the other commenters, you are correct in that AP classes at my school are far from representative of the school’s overall ethnic diversity (albeit more diverse than many of the previously mentioned suburban schools), but how that even relates to the point this article is making is beyond me. There seems to be a misconception, even among my white friends and evidently public school parents, that “thug culture” is more prevalent at inner-city schools than in the suburbs. Yes, many people at my school sag their pants, curse, and get into trouble with drugs, but it is in no way encouraged, and the notion that this somehow will affect my learning is not reasonable. White students at predominantly white schools do these same things, but from what society makes it seem like, they’re not participating in black culture (or “thug culture” for those convinced that race plays no role); it’s just kids being kids. To me, there’s something much, much worse about privileged white kids calling each other the N word and selling hard drugs just to be part of this cultural phenomenon that they know nothing about, than an inner city kid selling drugs on the street because he has no money, and no parents were there to encourage him in a different direction. By no means are either of them acceptable, but what you see in inner-city schools is far from a “thug culture” that people knowingly associate themselves with like you see in white schools, rather, these are just victims of circumstance. And quite frankly, most of the white kids I know in APS do not participate in “thug culture” nearly as much as the private and suburban school students that I know.
Dr. Craig Spinks /Augusta
November 20th, 2010
3:49 pm
Jeff, do you think that “thug culture” adversely impacts the academic achievement of any students at GHS?
Henry W. Grady
November 20th, 2010
3:54 pm
Again, two points: firstly, for those of you suggesting that I am calling for in-town parents to somehow sacrifice their child’s education in order to support other underperforming children, I believe you are missing the point of the study. By showing that white students in APS, Decatur, and Dekalb do at least as well as their counterparts in the suburbs, the point is that parents AREN’T sacrificing their child’s education by keeping them in these school districts. The in-town public schools benefit and the kids still receive a quality education – everyone wins. Which brings me to my second point: tax dollars are by no means the only form of resources that parents contribute to the school system – hands-on parental involvement can make a world of a difference. For example, many of the most successful student organizations at ANY school are the ones in which parental support and involvement is high, not those which rely solely on their alloted funds in the school budget.
Jeff
November 20th, 2010
4:07 pm
@Dr. Spinks, I do not think that the “thug culture” at my school hinders anyone’s academic progress, mainly because the entire thing is exaggerated. There are people who may negatively influence other students, even academically, with this culture, but there seems to be a misconception that thugs are running the public schools here. Beyond flat-brimmed caps and saggy jeans, most of what outsiders associate it with is virtually nonexistent. People don’t bring guns to school or make drug deals in the hallway like some concerned parents may think; for the most part, it’s just students going about their daily academic business. So yes, the culture may inhibit some students’ academic achievement, but those are only the students who go actively looking for it, and go out of their way to become a part of it. And to the parents, if your child manages to get caught up in that, then the fault wouldn’t be on the school system, it would be on the lack of supervision that the children got from their own parents.
Henry W. Grady
November 20th, 2010
4:13 pm
Agree 100% with Jeff: wearing saggy jeans no more makes you a thug than wearing bellbottoms made you an acid dropper in the ’60s
Grady Parent
November 20th, 2010
4:32 pm
@Jeff, thank you for sharing and being honest. Especially about the AP classes not being very diverse.
@Henry W. Grady, You are missing reality. Decatur does not compare to any urban school for obvious reasons. The white students at Dekalb are found at Lakeside, Dunwoody, Chamblee and Druid Hills, all which have strong parental involvement and accountability. Most white kids in APS are at Grady or North Atlanta, only. Those schools have super PTA groups that advocate that raise money and advocate directly to the school system. Where does that leave the rest of intown Atlanta? Lie on your address, private, move, or get a job at APS so you can send your kids to Inman and Grady. How about that reality check? Are you still drinking the Kumbaya Kool Aid?
This is not really black versus white. Black people do not want to attend their community school and work getting their kid to Grady or North Atlanta.
Jeff, how many class mates do you know that are lying to attend Grady? My daughter knows many.
Jeff
November 20th, 2010
4:46 pm
@Grady Parent, From my understanding, many students attend schools like Grady or North Atlanta that are out of zone, perhaps up to 15% of the entire population (a very rough estimate from someone who does not claim to be good with numbers), but this is proving the point that Henry W. Grady was making, in that the reason people are attending the schools “illegally” is because of the parent involvement that you yourself pointed out. If the middle/upper class white students zoned for Maynard Jackson (which there are many of) attended their school, students would be flocking there as well, because of the parent involvement that would come with it. I am not about to start arguing Henry W. Grady’s point all over again, but having involved parents at a school will not only benefit their own children, but, perhaps more importantly, it will benefit the disadvantaged students as well.
Henry W. Grady
November 20th, 2010
4:47 pm
That’s exactly my point! These schools are exactly where they are because of the resources that their community puts into them. And these are largely the schools that white parents are running away from. Plus, don’t you think it says something that so many kids are trying to attend these schools? These schools are a testament to the fact that urban public education can work.
Grady Parent
November 20th, 2010
4:55 pm
@Jeff and Henry, you guys sound like you might be related. So, it’s ok to be attending Grady illegally as long as you are involved? That logic doesn’t seem right, but maybe that is the reality at APS.
Many of my daughter’s class mates do come from East Atlanta or that area. Some are in the magnet program, but many are not and are lying to attend Grady. Guess it is ok as long as the parents are involved?
Grady Parent
November 20th, 2010
5:02 pm
Don’t hate on white families leaving Grady. Many are leaving because of the dysfunctional board at APS. Those leaving Grady to go to private schools are white and also black. Hate on the APS board and the cheating administration. Governor elect Deal, please dissolve APS and get us those vouchers you promised. That way I can afford to take my daughter to Woodward to join her other ex-Grady friends. Is that selfish also?
Jeff
November 20th, 2010
5:02 pm
@Grady Parent, I did not know it was a crime to agree with someone, especially as I seem to be in the minority as far as commenters go. I was not at all saying that I think that it is right for students to come into other schools illegally, and they are not the ones that are involved. I was saying that the reason that it is happening is that parents at Grady and North Atlanta and Druid Hills are very involved, which all in all makes the school better due to extracurriculars, funding, etc. The students are coming there because of it, and I don’t blame them.
Grady Parent
November 20th, 2010
5:24 pm
@Jeff, Thank you for your candor. As a fellow parent, I don’t blame those that are lying to attend Grady. My daughters will be fine taking the AP classes and I am glad we can share our great school with those that are not so fortunate. That is why I do not turn them in. That is unselfish of us to tolerate more students in the AP classes knowing that some are lying. That validates Henry W. Grady’s point, does it not? Besides, it is the school district’s responsibilty to make sure all schools are being transformed into high performing school, not ours.
Long time Morningside parent
November 20th, 2010
5:34 pm
@Grady Parent: One of the biggest reasons why the Grady Cluster does so well academically, and why the North Atlanta Cluster’s numbers are continuing to rise, is because a bunch of the white neighborhood parents got together and decided to support the community schools instead of moving or going to the private schools. Together they decided to send their children to APS schools and to become involved themselves to support and help improve the system. The Grady Cluster parents did this in the early to mid 1980s and the N Atlanta group a few years ago. This is one way in which people can be invested in, build up, and support the community and the community schools as a neighborhood, which is good for both the neighborhood and the families and students who live there.
Grady Parent
November 20th, 2010
5:43 pm
@Long time, I fully understand parental involvement makes an impact. But, should those that excersise school choice be considered selfish or carry guilt as @Henry W. Grady says?
Some communities don’t have the stay at home moms to organize these meetings and do all that fundraising. Who is responsible for running the schools, parents or the school system? Why don’t they throw the resources and money to all schools the way they do to Carver? Parents are not organized and fundraising like they are at Grady and North Atlanta. If there were more Carvers, then we would not be so crowded at Grady.
An American Patriot
November 20th, 2010
5:45 pm
Henry W. Grady
November 20th, 2010
3:54 pm
By showing that white students in APS, Decatur, and Dekalb do at least as well as their counterparts in the suburbs,
Hey, Henry W. Grady, leave Decatur Schools out of this fray……APS and DCSS can only dream of being as good as Decatur and that dream will never come true
Grady Parent
November 20th, 2010
6:01 pm
@Jeff, you ARE drinking the same Kumbaya Kool Aid as Henry W. Grady, maybe it’s out of the same pitcher.
Are you saying it is more important to educate the disadvantaged over my own? That is ludacrous.
@Jeff said “If the middle/upper class white students zoned for Maynard Jackson (which there are many of) attended their school, students would be flocking there as well, because of the parent involvement that would come with it. I am not about to start arguing Henry W. Grady’s point all over again, but having involved parents at a school will not only benefit their own children, but, perhaps MORE IMPORTANTLY, it will benefit the disadvantaged students as well”
Concerned 2
November 20th, 2010
6:24 pm
Interesting comments. It’s still mostly economic people. But, perceptions are everything. Affluent African American parents send their children to Grady or North Atlanta if they can’t afford private schools. My daughter moved to Buckhead to get away from “Thug Nation.”. The bad part is that there are some ver intelligent African American kids caught in this urban turmoil. They want to learn and try hard but the bullies get the attention and disrupt the classrooms and halls. Dr. Hall took away the extras in many schools that kept kids out of the streets. Theses kids are not robots to be trained to pass tests. They are human beings… And they need to be disciplined. Also, stop giving teen parents welfare. Give them workfare. For the record, many of us poor Black parents are just as involved as you are. But, we’ve got plenty of lazy moms and dads, locked up parents and drug using parents whose lives are ridiculous. Their children are angry and they hurt others. African Americans have got to take back their communities. They need to kick out the profiteers who only put liquor stores, check cashing joints, Beauty product stores, over priced convenience stores, and auto parts stores. How dare these creeps look down their noses at anyone? Discipline those kids, work, save your money and clean up our communities and schools.
My mom and dad did not have much but they made us study and all six of their African American children earned college degrees; no
one at an HBCU, several at Ivy Leagues and a couple at state schools in Georgia. Home training counts President Obama! It matters!