White flight: Are parents running to less successful schools?
Many suburbanites on this blog contend that they would never send their children to city of Atlanta or DeKalb schools and that’s why they now live in Forsyth or Cobb.
Here is an interesting response to that common assertion from a reader who looked at test data that suggests the state’s highest achieving white students are in metro systems, including Atlanta , Decatur, Marietta and DeKalb.
Take a look at this reader’s research:
I have been crunching some numbers from the state DOE report cards and thought I might share with you some interesting results.
In response to the constant attacks on the quality of schooling offered by APS in particular and urban public schools in general, I have often read or heard comments (many by your blog commenters) that they would never consider sending their own children to Atlanta schools and/or that they have moved out of the city to the suburbs rather than do so.
What continues to interest me, particularly when addressing the subject of “white flight” from Atlanta and certain other urban systems, is how little evidentiary basis there is to back up most of these decisions, particularly when made by middle or upper-middle class white parents.
So I decided to try to address the question: “Based on available data, which Georgia school districts provide the best educational results for white students?”
I assumed, for purposes of this exercise, that SAT scores provide the best proxy available for “educational end product.” (For obvious reasons, I decided not to use CRCT scores or graduation rates, which many would contend are highly suspect).
If white flight out of Atlanta schools were to make rational sense, would not one expect that SAT scores for white students in suburban systems would greatly outstrip their Atlanta counterparts who are “left behind” in such a failed system? [Caveat: The state web site makes it impossible to show all individual district subgroup SAT scores at one time, so I have had to go district-by-district and have not looked at every district in the state, but am prepared to do so if you find this topic interesting enough to write about. Also, the DOE website does not provide a breakdown by family income level, so comparisons of scores on that basis cannot be done.]
My preliminary review shows as follows:
In 2008-09 (the most recent data included at the state website), the Georgia system with the highest average SAT scores (math and verbal) for its white students appears to be Decatur City (1203); second is Atlanta City (1165); third is Marietta City (1150); and fourth is DeKalb County (1145).
For 2007-08, the top four appear to have been (1) Atlanta (1174); (2) Decatur (1166); (3) DeKalb (1136); and (4) Fulton County (1108). The statewide SAT average for all white students was 1042 in 2008-09 and 1040 in 2007-08
I know from prior discussions with many white parents (especially those whose children do not attend APS schools) that these results will strike some as unbelievable — that white students in Atlanta, Decatur and DeKalb public schools perform better on SATs than white students in Fulton, Cobb, Gwinnett, Cherokee, Fayette, Forsyth and possibly (probably?) every other system in the state of Georgia!
Now, this data certainly do not prove that APS, Decatur and DeKalb are doing a “better job” or providing a “better education” to their white students than every other district in the state — far from it. What is equally or more likely is that other critical demographic factors at play (especially parent education and income levels) are more favorable for white students in those districts than in most others.
Similarly, demographic factors (especially high poverty rates) among its black students probably skews the SAT scores for those APS and DeKalb students in the opposite direction.
What the data do suggest, however, is that middle class parents (white or minority) who conclude – based only on a school’s or a system’s overall test scores – that they should buy their houses in another district or send their kids to private schools rather than APS (or DeKalb or Decatur) may only be fooling themselves about the perceived benefits for their own children.
I do believe that there are some gross misconceptions out there about how well or poorly some systems (especially APS) are doing in educating students, and that your column would be a great place to show that at least some of those misconceptions are not supported by any data.
By Maureen Downey, AJC Get Schooled blog
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234 comments Add your comment
mad_russian
November 19th, 2010
10:56 am
Former Springdale Park Parent, do you actually know anything about the culture of Grady? The metal protectors are there as a standard so you may want to refrain from making assumptions before you do the actual research. For those of you using the term “ghetto”, it’s an elitist term and doesn’t reflect all members of a community. It’s so easy to abandon a system rather than getting involved to support it. Plain and simple, the detractors are the real failures for abandoning the members of their community with their elitist and bigoted philosophies by categorizing all students from the inner city based upon the sensationalized stories from our media. Go to the school, find out that there are forty students to a classroom. Discover that we don’t have the luxury to pick and choose our students based upon performance, behavior, and monetary income as compared to private schools. Having a class of fifteen students is optimal for teaching, having forty becomes more about overall management. Most of you wouldn’t survive in a real teaching environment so either return to fantasy land or start standing up for your local communities. At least I can cross many of you off of my potential friend list.
Bill
November 19th, 2010
10:59 am
Springdale,
Middle and high school are difficult and turbulent times. Yes, there will be discipline issues, at any school. Yes, Grady has metal detectors and so does Inman. As for “so many” uniformed officers, I don’t remember ever seeing more than one, and I believe every public school has a resource officer assigned to it. Grady also has Journalism, Mock Trial, and Speech and Debate programs that are among the best in the country – public or private.
Why?
November 19th, 2010
10:59 am
White Flight is very real and I think it is due to a combination of the notion that more blacks and perhaps hispanics in a school automatically suggests that the ghetto culture will not be far behind. Whether this is simply flawed perception or reality seems to be irrelevant to some whites. If you look at the racial makeup of some of the schools in the “middle” as far as socioeconomics is concerned, and in Cobb in particular, there are many schools where the population of white students is underrepresented when you look at the ethnic breakdown of the community that surrounds the school. Here are a few that come to mind
CAMPBELL MIDDLE SCHOOL: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129002070/school.aspx, (scroll to the bottom and note how the racial stats between black whites and hispanics (which are the larget subgroups, trend over the years.) Now look at the neighborhood breakdown: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129002070/school.aspx?entity=18
FLOYD MIDDLE SCHOOL: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000553/school.aspx, http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000553/school.aspx?entity=18; GARRETT MIDDLE SCHOOL: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000534/school.aspx, http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000534/school.aspx?entity=18, and perhaps surprising to some of you who do not live in Cobb, even EAST COBB MIDDLE SCHOOL has seen the same white flight effect, The underrepresentation of white students at this school is significant. 88% white in the community that is in the same zip code as the school (and i do realize this is not snonymous with the school attendance zone but there is definitely overlap) vs 31% white students attending the school.Blacks are 43% and hispanics are 15% of the school population. http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000536/school.aspx, http://www.schooldigger.com/go/GA/schools/0129000536/school.aspx?entity=18
Makes you wonder what’s really driving the whites out. Is it predominately the ghetto culture that has been suggested on this blog, or is it simply the color of the skin of the students. If there is anyone on this blog from the East Cobb area, i’d love to hear your thougths about East Cobb Middle. In particular, has there been a growing ghetto culture/mentality at this school over the years to justify the decline in white student enrollment? If we want to add socioeconomics to the mix, I can see that the % of free and reduced lunch students has also been increasing over the years. in 2009 the % free and reduced was 59%. The general flight of races seems to be that whites move forst, then black come later (as far as the masses are concerned) and arguably, the first blacks that arrive are probably the sort that have the same family values, high expectations for their kids, etc.. as the whit parents. I am not white so i do not know, but maybe there is some threshold of comfort in racial makes up at which whites may feel a little “uncomfortable” and that is when the “flight” starts to occur? Thoughts from others?? Personally, I think that we should all feel free to choose to live in whatever environment we are most comfortable in. If you are white and that means your preference is to be in predominately white schools and neighborhoods, that is your prerogative, as there are Blacks who prefer an HBCU to a traditional college of all races. In my opinion, I think we should all seek out more racially balanced environments especially when you consider the world that we live in and the one that our children will inherit, but that’s just the choice that my wife and I have made for our family.
Here’s a hypothetical… let’s assume there’s a Walton equivalent high school interms of academic achnevement, enrichment activities, facilities, reputation, parental involvement etc.. in a predominately black community where white enrollment hovers around 5% (right now Blacks make up 4.8% of the walton population) , and there isn’t another high performing school of that caliber in the district, would white parents be clamoring for their kids to attend this school (In a school like this I’d be hard pressed to think that the ghetto mentality would be the law of the land in such a school.)? Hmmm… I am not so sure that they would. However, that said, should it matter? I dont know to what extent it should matter, but what i do know is that if you are white and your main interest is academic achievement then it should not matter. So it saddens me a bit to think that in this case race might trump school achievement. I know that in this case, for many African American households, race may not matter as much as it would for that of a white person. If you agree with this notion, why do you think that is the case?
At the end of the day, I too feel as most posters do, that the success of a child is highly dependent on the parents and the value that is placed on high levels of academic achievement in the home.
Bill
November 19th, 2010
11:01 am
Mad,
I agree with you on the issues, but don’t scratch “Springdale” off your friends list, just because she disagrees. We are all in this together.
iRun
November 19th, 2010
11:04 am
@ Springdale Park -
I’m not sure re being appalled at the reality of any inner city school. Certainly Grady is inner city. Certainly there are measures taken for security that you see there and not at suburban schools.
Do I worry for my own son’s safety? No. The probability of him getting harmed, physically, at Grady is low. That sort of crime is by and large done among people who know each other. I doubt my son will be hanging out with those children pre-disposed to violence. In fact, I am 100% sure it won’t be a problem.
A better question is: Do I want to shield my son from the reality of inner city life? The answer to that is: No.
I like to think my son will leave my household with a shine of sophistication that only comes from life experience. Better than the lily white pureness and naivety I left my parents house with…that others took advantage. You can’t teach that, only learn it.
I’m just glad I have the ability to choose. Most don’t.
LaLaLa
November 19th, 2010
11:11 am
If we can get outside Atlanta for a minute…similar situations exist elswhere in the state. Athens Clarke County district where UGA is physically located is 60% minority in high schools and middle schools, and most elementary schools have 50% to as high as 97% free or reduced price lunch students. Hilsman MS in ACC has state winners in Math Counts. Kids from Cedar Shoals and Clarke Central HS attend Princeton, Duke, Harvard, etc. in greater numbers and percentages than the elite (white upper income) private college prep. Yet, many UGA faculty enroll their children in Oconee County or Jefferson City Schools or the aforementioned private prep academy or one of the FIVE private secular and parochial K-8 and K-12 schools in this little town of 80,000 (100,000 if you count the students who aren’t full year residents).
So what is going on…
Committed parents in ACC know that if their children are bright they will receive small classes, tons of teacher attention and administration support, a large share of the resources put toward the low income schools for participation in AP classes, science fairs, travel opportunities because the schools track these kids into advanced classes, even grade level acceleration in small groups. Taxes are about 1/3 less than in Oconee County, children have a diverse school environment, but administration segregates “the smart kids” (literally, the AP-type kids spend their days in the basement classrooms of Clarke Central, away from the masses). And, coming out as valedictorian of a low income, mainly minority, underperforming school (drop out rates exceed state average), their kids get oodles of scholarship $$ thrown at them. Most middle class black and Asian parents’ children are in these schools in numbers sufficient to offer an option to the “gangsta” culture. Parents counteract the culture with their own expectations and by being involved in sports, arts, dance, and other community activities where they can influence the social culture.
What about all those who send their kids elsewhere? The private schools are also pretty good, but not always superior in quality or extracurricular offerings. Administrators at these private schools will usually emphasize the religious aspect of the education or the “safety” factor parents say they want in getting out of public middle and high schools. Public schools in Oconee County and Jefferson City offer strong teaching, good extra curricular activities, strong parent involvement and are also good, but those kids just don’t stand out when there are 3 or 4 AP Calculus classes, each with 30 kids, instead of 1 with 7-12 kids (as in Clarke Central HS or Cedar Shoals HS in ACC). For several years running, Oconee County ranked first in incoming freshman at UGA – that is more freshman came from Oconee County than any other county in Georgia. A good university, but many parents from the county were disappointed not to have their children accepted to the Northern and Southern Ivies.
Can’t say who is better off. The scores for the SATs in the upper income white demographic are nearly the same in Athens Clarke County public schools as in the private schools and the Oconee County Schools, but the ability to stand out is much higher in ACC. From conversations with parents, I would say most got what they wanted.
Former Springdale Park Elementary Parent
November 19th, 2010
11:46 am
Honestly, the dynamic at work here is this: “We feel so lucky to be at (our intown Atlanta public school), because it could be so much worse!”
Many APS schools benefit from this “guilty white liberal” groupthink. “Not as bad as it could be” –that’s where you want to set the bar?
Why don’t we try to OBJECTIVELY evaluate Grady, with its inadequate gifted students program, its overcrowded AP classes (and no coherent plan for expansion) and ask yourself these questions: is this the launching pad I imagined for my college-bound child? Is there ANY WAY a private school wouldn’t be a better option, if we could afford it? Do I really believe we wouldn’t be better off in Gwinnett?
iRun
November 19th, 2010
12:03 pm
@ Springdale Park -
I suppose it’s standards, in some respects. I don’t think I fall into the category of feeling relatively lucky or being a guilty liberal. Mostly, I just want better for my kid than I had. I CAN afford private. I could afford Paidiea (the private school I would choose because it’s good AND it’s a mile from my house). But it doesn’t attract me the way Grady does.
What makes you say Grady’s gifted program is inadequate? That confuses me. From what I can see, it’s actually pretty special. I can’t wait for my son to join the debate team and the journalism club…though he admittedly only cares about playing football there.
Dr. Craig Spinks /Augusta
November 19th, 2010
12:11 pm
(M)ad_(R)ussian, keep up your great work. As a retired public school teacher, I can empathize with you.
Dr. Craig Spinks /Augusta
November 19th, 2010
12:18 pm
Today in Parent Involvement Day in at least one county in my area. How many parents of students in that county’s public school system will today visit their children’s schools is something I don’t know? But I do know, based upon years of teaching experience, that parental presence in the classroom makes for more focused teacher, student and administrative efforts.
Lil Skeeter
November 19th, 2010
12:20 pm
Mo: You must have hit a nerve on this topic. I am just sitting here in my deer stand near Union Springs, trying to figure out in my head how that Mark Elgart could slam Clayton County and not do a thing to his home county of Fulton where the micromanagement of the school system was so egregious under Superintendent John Haro that he only stayed five or six months before resigning in disgust. Just trying to figure this out…in my head. You don’t think that Elgart just picks and chooses who he wants to pick on, do you? That Ericka Davis in Clayton County must have had some quixotic spell on Mark Elgart. From Ericka, it was like…One call…that’s all! Boom! Elgart was on Clayco like white on rice! Just about destroyed that county! Hundreds and hundreds of millions in property value was lost. One call…that’s all! And to think that we were just about going to invite him to join the East Alabama Hunting Club. We like to integrate our club with one arrogant Yankee per year. We have to have someone to pick on over the camp fire, you know.
I am trying to keep up with these posts but they’re coming at me too fast! I think that I might miss a deer — and Thanksgiving Dinner is right around the corner, you know! I’m reading all that I can on my Blackberry Curve, but I think that I’m gonna have to upgrade to one of them Druids. A devil of a phone, it sure is! It can even take pictures!
Gail
November 19th, 2010
12:29 pm
This is a very interesting conversation for me for a variety of reasons. As a native Atlantan who attended public schools in SW Atlanta during integration, I experienced the white flight of the 60s and 70s. School quality and/or safety were not the reasons for white flight; it was race. Black students entering the schools where I attended then were the children of lawyers, doctors, business owners, etc. who were highly educated. Based on that experience, I don’t think I will ever be able to believe that some of white flight, even in 2010, is not predicated on race.
Now, as a parent, still living in SW Atlanta, I have two children who have spent some time in APS and some time in Catholic schools. The older went to Catholic school from Pre-K through 8th, and then public high school. Both these schools were predominately black. Going from a more protected environment to a more economically diverse school was a serious eye-opener for her and she believes a very valuable experience. She was a high achiever and in the magnet program, so we felt pretty comfortable because she had less exposure to the ghetto culture.
The younger went to APS for elementary grades and moved to Catholic beginning with 6th grade and now into high school. The elementary school was on the “north side” and very racially diverse. The high school he currently attends is also racially diverse. He is also having a very positive experience of education.
I am black and have been blessed and lucky that I have never had to put my children in a school taken over by ghetto culture. All the schools my children attended had some blacks who were aligned with the ghetto culture, but they were in the minority. Please do not assume that all blacks believe in or espouse the ghetto culture. It is a culture of the ghetto, NOT black culture.
If APS (and other public schools) want middle class parents to stay (regardless of which race they are), they MUST eliminate or subdue the ghetto culture. Unless this changes, I, and I believe many other people like me, will not return.
iRun
November 19th, 2010
12:29 pm
One thing that attracted me to Mary Lin was it’s connection to the community around it. The surrounding businesses, festivals, parks, etc, all seem to be involved in school activities. The kindergarteners tour the Flying Biscuit, older kids walk to The Carter Center, the various festivals in Candler Park have a kids play area where proceeds go to Mary Lin, etc. From what I’ve seen, it’s the same for Morningside. Community involvement is very, very visible and prominent.
I suppose that community feel is also what largely had us choose Mary Lin over Paideia. This isn’t easily translated/communicated, though, to people who don’t live here.
HS Public Teacher
November 19th, 2010
12:33 pm
There is good and bad in all systems. There are good and bad parents in all systems. I don’t understand if this is shocking to someone??
Dr. Craig Spinks /Augusta
November 19th, 2010
12:39 pm
Lil Skeeter, after you bag your deer, buy a Druid(if it takes videos); take it with you as you visit the schools your kids and other relatives attend; make pictoral records of what you observe there; and place the videos on YouTube. Your video-posting might encourage others to the same. Such videography might provide us the evidence of the good and the bad occurring daily in specific tax-supported schools.
Lil Skeeter
November 19th, 2010
12:48 pm
I had 14 white ducks all lined up on the edge of Big Jim Folsom Lake. Had’em in my scope, I tell you. Just sitting there. Sitting ducks! I couldn’t believe it! And no little duckies around. (I hate it when some of my shot gun pellets him them little ones.) I was trying to stand up in the deer stand to get better leverage with my shot gun. (I was originally waiting for deer to come to the edge of the lake for watering. So I had my 22 in my lap.) Just when I was getting up, the shot gun went off accidentally! Everyone of them duck went a’flyin’ off that lake. Biggest white flight that I’ve ever seen! Guns tend to cause white flights like this! I’ve seen accidental firing of guns cause geese to go a’scurrying about too. Great black flight. Guns tend to really scare these creatures. I’ll have to be more careful next time.
Lil Skeeter
November 19th, 2010
12:50 pm
Craig: Cousin Booger and I have thought about this, but that there FERFA (is this how to say it?) law is a real booger.
Bill
November 19th, 2010
12:50 pm
Springdale,
I think you are not reading me correctly. I, and many of the parents at Grady chose it over private schools. Both of my kids received a top notch education there. That doesn’t mean everyone does, but it is there for the taking. As for gifted programs being – inadequate, gifted programs are important in elementary and middle school. They don’t mean much in High school. By that time, it is honors and AP courses that accommodate these kids. Are they too crowded, probably. But doesn’t the fact that there is high demand for AP classes say something about Grady?
You ask: “Is there any way a private school could not be better”? My son is a debater. Grady’s speech and debate team is the Georgia state champion, and in the top 2% nationally. The Mock Trial team is the Georgia State champion. The journalism program has several publications that have been in the top 10 nationally for years. Yes, private schools do this stuff well too. But, these are areas where Grady outperforms public and private. You may note that these are extracurricular activities. You should also note they they are academic in nature, and you cannot excel in these areas if the school is bad academically.
Kevin
November 19th, 2010
12:55 pm
Response to the “Larry” comment…
“Hell,my black friends dont’t educate their kids in town.They live in Kennesaw,Cummings,Roswell,Alpharetta,and they don’t intend on sending them to college at Morehouse,Morris Brown or any other segregated all black sub standard environment.”
Larry…….your comment is dripping with a lack on knowledge. The fact that you would put Morehouse College and Morris Brown College in the same sentence is utterly ridiculous. So “all black” = “sub standard”??? I would do a tad bit of research on the history and reputation of Morehouse College if I were you. In fact, do you realize that just a couple of years ago that Morehouse had a white valedictorian who went on to work on Wall Street? I certainly hope that you don’t make hiring decisions at your place of employment!!
Dr NO
November 19th, 2010
1:16 pm
Morris Brown and Morehouse are substandard. Diploma mills both of them and I have zero respect for any institution that would allow DwainWain to attend.
“Wear whitlee?
Fed Up Parent
November 19th, 2010
1:19 pm
I am sick and tired of all the excuses as to why one group of kids out perform another. This divisiveness carried on by the parents, teachers and school system is the very reason why all kids are not exposed to adequate schooling. I grew up in a single parent household in the inner city up North. I graduated college on a Full Academic scholarship and will be attending law school. My husband is college educated as well. We have a daughter in the Dekalb School system in middle school. We have always been heavily involved in her schooling and will continue to do so. I am in the PTA and volunteer. Our family is not white! We are the African American family that so you often want to ignore exist. We expect no less than any other group of parents who want their children to succeed. We’ve dealt with teachers of all ethnicities that did not want to teach but collect a paycheck. When my daughter received a “notoriously ‘bad’ teacher” we had her assigned to different class. You have children of all races that fail becuase of the lack of interest from parents, teachers and the community as a whole. If your school and/or child is failing what are you doing to improve it? If your child comes home with behavior unacceptable to you, then change it. Stop blaming other groups and look at yourself.
Dr. Craig Spinks /Augusta
November 19th, 2010
1:21 pm
Lil Skeeter, I’ve seen on commercial TV several videotaped episodes of teachers and a parent behaving badly in classrooms and a school bus, respectively. “Inside Edition” apparently found ways to broadcast these surreptitious videos. Maybe the videotaping of disrespectful and disruptive student behaviors in specific public schools would provoke the parents of students at these schools to demand their school boards and administrators to eliminate such behaviors.
Can a school system be too black?
November 19th, 2010
1:25 pm
@AlreadySheared at 9:41 am, Thank you for sharing that Georgia DOE website.
What the facts show for the 2008-2009 Report Card in the Personnel & Fiscal category is that in Decatur schools 22% of teachers are black.
In Atlanta Public Schools, black teachers make up 75%. Care to guess where the high percentage of white teachers teach? Yup, Buckhead elementary and middle schools, followed by a good majority at Morningside and Mary Lin.
Data from the Georgia DOE website, http://goo.gl/Sl17x
Norreese L. Haynes
November 19th, 2010
1:26 pm
I told you folks when I sat on the Clayton County Board of Education that the thugs had to be removed from our regular schools. When I first stated this in an open meeting, some peoples’ jaws dropped. They were shocked at my willingness to openly state: “We have to remove the thugs from our schools.” I kept repeating this mantra. People in the community picked up on it, and showed me full support. I am telling you that they were excited that I was saying this publicly. My support came from all quarters…all ethnic groups, parent groups, and business leaders. This, I presume, is what scared my colleague, Ericka Davis. She seemed to be out of touch with what was really happening in our schools. The discipline was getting bad during the Barbara Pulliam administration, and I wanted us to nip this in the bud. Now I hear from teachers each week about how the discipline in Clayton County is nearly non-existent. Just look what happened to the very fine teacher at North Clayton High School recently when she stood up to one of the disruptive and defiant students at that school. Her fellow teachers, parents, and I hear her local school board member and local commissioner are supportive of the teacher. But, Edmund Heatley, the California reject, insists on taking the side of the thug-students.
White flight? Not just white flight. I have personally witnessed some of my formers students and their families leave Clayton for Fayette and other counties to get away from the “thuggerism” (if that is a word; you know what I mean). It’s better called, in my opinion, “Bright Flight.” The parents of our best students will not allow their children to be subjected to terror. This is why you have a “brain drain” from counties which allow the thugs to run wild. (c) MACE, November 19, 2010.
Can a school system be too black?
November 19th, 2010
1:34 pm
@Bill, sounds like your kid is in the Grady Communications magnet or SLC. Is he not in the good track? If Grady is excelling academically as you state, why did it not make AYP last year? Is it because of those other students your kid will not have too deal with after high school?
For all those talking about redistricting. Do you think APS is going to mess with the Grady lines being a Title I school? Grady ia at 42% free or reduced lunch. The thresh hold is 40%, so you will still have those Ghetto kids. The federal money is too significant to lose for APS.
Why is Grady overcrowded? This is why.
November 19th, 2010
1:43 pm
@Bill and other Grady parents. Ask your child how many kids do they know that are lying to attend Grady. Report them to outofzone@atlanta.k12.ga.us
Grady is over capacity with 40 kids in a class because so many kids are lying about where they live. Just look at the license plates when the kids are dropped off in the morning, usually late. Clayton, Henry, Rockdale and others. Not to mention kids not zoned for Grady, but they are using a false address. This needs to stop as our school is being cheated.
If you know of someone lying to attend Grady please turn them in to APS. Report them to outofzone@atlanta.k12.ga.us
JANINE
November 19th, 2010
1:44 pm
@ Dr. Tim….RE “The actual fact is that most white students well wherever they go to school”….:Let everyone say AMEN…..after “most Asian students” is added.
It is not the color of the skin that is the variable, however. It is the culture of the group.
APS Parent
November 19th, 2010
1:46 pm
I share Bill’s perception about Grady HS. This is my 6th year as a Grady parent and neither I nor my children have ever experienced any of the negative atmosphere described by Springdale. Far from feeling “lucky” because things “could be a lot worse,” I would not trade my children’s education and life experience at Inman Middle and Grady High School for any school in the state, public or private.
And, by the way, I just checked the DOE website and the average white student SAT scores for each of the last three years has been higher Grady High School than at Walton High School (which I and just about everyone else acknowledge to be at or near the top in school performance).
Lee
November 19th, 2010
1:56 pm
So, this writer cherry picks some data and concludes that all the whites who move out of Atlanta are wrong.??
ROFLMAO
There are a lot of reasons to move away from an over-crowded, crime-ridden city. Just because you found a few pockets of security gate utopia doesn’t mean I want to live there.
Let’s look at your #1 – City of Decatur schools. One high school, in close proximity to three colleges, a major teaching hospital, and the demographics include a population where over 56% have a Bachelors degree or higher and over 27% have a Graduate degree or higher.
Not quite your run-of-the-mill big city high school, I submit.
Quite frankly, most of us outside the metro Atlanta area think suburbia as only a small step up from in-town Atlanta living. Not much difference between the two, imho.
Former Springdale Park Elementary Parent
November 19th, 2010
2:11 pm
@Bill–
When you’ve persuaded yourself that an overcrowded AP class (40+ student average, now, right?) is a good thing, there’s no reasoning with you. The classes are not overfull because of a surplus of talented students. The classes are full because the teacher staffing situation has been mismanaged and Grady leadership has no coherent plan for handling the load.
Those of you who want to argue that you chose APS schools over private options because you were looking for a superior experience–you’ve been hanging out too close to Little Five Points, and inhaling too much of the air around there, if you know what I mean.
Food for thought
November 19th, 2010
2:12 pm
I felt the need to make a comment regarding public versus private schools. Sometimes, yes, private schools do produce students who have high achievements. However, keep in mind that private schools can select who attends and who gets kicked out. Public schools are required to provide an education to all students who attend. Therefore, often it is the high achieving students who attend private school in the first place.
Grady Parent
November 19th, 2010
2:19 pm
@Bill, Springdale, APS Parent and other Grady and Inman parents.
Both these schools are overcrowded because of students lying to attend.
Ask your child how many kids they know are lying to attend Inman and Grady. Report them to outofzone@atlanta.k12.ga.us
Our schools are maxed out. How can we limit APS central office employees from getting special transfer to Grady and Inman? Since they are responsible for all schools they should do a lottery for schools that have room only. Since you run the schools you should have faith in them to send your own kid to any schools. What a concept.
RJ
November 19th, 2010
2:19 pm
“The fact that you would put Morehouse College and Morris Brown College in the same sentence is utterly ridiculous.”
@Kevin, again, someone making broad statements about schools in which they know very little about. My father is a proud Morris Brown graduate. He was valedictorian of his high school class and finished in the top 10 of his class at Morris Brown. He has told me of many well known attorneys and business people in the Atlanta area that went to school with him. This was in the 60’s, but I’m sure if they hadn’t had so many financial issues the school would still be successful today. MLK, Jr went to Morehouse, but Mama King went to Morris Brown. All of these schools have a wonderful history that need not be distorted by inaccurate information. We are all hopeful that the school will regain accreditation because it served many students in a unique environment. It’s interesting how people want to assume that if you go to college “a” instead of college “b” you’re somehow better off. I’ve found that it’s personal drive and ambition that garners success. Oprah Winfrey is a prime example. She didn’t attend Harvard or any other Ivy League, she graduated from Tennessee State.
“The thresh hold is 40%, so you will still have those Ghetto kids. ”
@Can a school system be too black? are you saying that white kids don’t receive free or reduced lunch? Wow! It doesn’t get any more ignorant than that.
AtlMom
November 19th, 2010
2:32 pm
I agree with the comments about culture and it’s impact on schools and student learning. It’s not about race, it’s about values. Certain urban cultures do not instill the right values in kids, do not teach them to respect their teachers and their fellow students. As a result, the entire school suffers. It’s past time to crack down on the errant behavior. If a kid is disruptive to the class, put them out. Perhaps if school systems would just say no, these kids will learn the world doesn’t owe them anything way before they ruin their lives.
iRun
November 19th, 2010
2:34 pm
@ Springdale Park,
OK, let’s not start being nasty. No need to tell Bill he must be smoking crack.
It’s obvious you can’t be persuaded. I already mentioned nobody changes anybody’s mind on a blog. It’s ESPECIALLY true for you who does NOT have high school aged kids, despite hearing testimony from Grady parents.
Fine. But that doesn’t mean those of us who do send our kids to Grady aren’t doing so with our eyes wide open.
Think about it. You live in the Morningside/VaHi/Poncy-Hi area, correct? Are you going to sit there in your affluent neighborhood and tell us, who live over here in the other affluent neighborhood that all your neighbors are stupid crack smokers?
No, you won’t.
So, lighten up. Cause in a few years your wallet will, no matter what. And you will at least have your peace of mind.
But so will we. And that’s all there is to it.
Atlanta Mom
November 19th, 2010
2:40 pm
Grady did not make AYP last year, because it made AYP the year before. Anyone who understands NCLB understands what I just said. Because Grady made AYP two years ago, they were forced to take students from other non-performing schools. This resulted in overcrowding last year at Grady, and, because those students had not been attending Grady for 3 years, also resulted in lower test scores and failure to make AYP. The same thing happened when Crim closed and Grady took in half of those students. And of course, by 2014, no school with any subpopulation will make AYP
Garth
November 19th, 2010
2:41 pm
Are these SAT scores from the same Atlanta where the mass cheating on the CRCT scores occurred? Hmmm? and the same Atlanta where the school board is currently under investigation by the same outfit that stripped Clayton County of accredation? Hmmm? Sounds like Maureen has an ax to grind. White parents move their kids to predominantly white schools because of safety just as much for anything else. So far, the most recent shootings at schools have been in Dekalb County. Hmmm?
Grady Parent
November 19th, 2010
2:42 pm
@RJ, Grady is currently a Title 1 school with 42% free lunch. The white kids zoned to Grady can afford to live in Virginia-Highland and Morningside. They bring their organic lunches from home, Trader Joes or Whole Foods. We know which kids at Grady are on the free lunch program. Be realistic not ignarent, brah. Don’t be a hater because you are going to be reported to APS for lying outofzone@atlanta.k12.ga.us
Grady Parent
November 19th, 2010
2:57 pm
@Atlanta Mom, You said “Anyone who understands NCLB understands what I just said.” You breathing the air in L5P too?
Just because Grady got NCLB students does not mean that those students were low performing. On the contrary, those families chose to excercise their NCLB option to transfer. You implying those kids are bringing Grady down is ludacrous. It is obviously not your child in the Communication Magnet that is dragging Grady down. You know darn well there are two Gradys. Those thugsters living in the Old Fourth Ward, Kirkwood, Eastlake and near the Fulton County jail are the ones you don’t want your kid in school with.
Why does APS get rid of our Grady Magnet program and then create magnet like schools at Carver with minimum academic requirements? How is that not a magnet? Those schools will always make AYP because the dumb one are in the school of technology.
You are so concerned about having 40 kids in your kid’s AP class. Ask him how many kids he knows that are lying to attend Grady. outofzone@atlanta.k12.ga.us
RJ
November 19th, 2010
3:02 pm
@Grady Parent, show me your data supporting that statement and I’ll believe you. I know many middle class blacks that send their kids to Grady. Stop spreading the ignorance. Also, please show me where 100% of white students are Grady are zoned for the school. I repeat, stop spreading the ignorance.
Lawyer
November 19th, 2010
3:04 pm
“White Flight” is as old as water. Let’s get back to the issue at hand. Black educational leaders and board members in Clayton, Dekalb, and Atlanta are “stupid” and “corrupt” like white led systems were historically. For example, APS superintendent has continuously violated rules of porofessional ethics and possibly committed crimes of misrepresentation against the feds and state. Yet, she continues to evade prosecution and maintains her job. Most recently, she, Dr. Hall convinced the ex chair to start the process of extending her contract in violation of obvious “open meeting” laws to say the least. Then, SACS… it’s shocking.
Atlanta Mom
November 19th, 2010
3:09 pm
@Grady Parent
Atlanta Mom
November 19th, 2010
3:11 pm
@Grady Parent,
I have no problem with 40 students in an AP class. It’s the remedial math and english classes that should not have 40 students in them
Grady Parent
November 19th, 2010
3:14 pm
@RJ, You know many middle class blacks sending their kids to Grady? Do they live in zone? Probably not. Let us talk about Black Flight. SW folks that do not support their community schools but rather lie to attend Northside and intown schools. Lie on your address or know someone working downtown. Come on RJ, you know I am calling that one right. Nuff said.
Grady Parent
November 19th, 2010
3:19 pm
@Atlanta Mom, Sorry. I think I mixed you up with another Grady parent. I guess 40 smart AP students are still going to get the job done. How many kids do you or your kid know that are lying to attend Grady? 5? 10? more? Probably RJ’s friends.
Dr. Craig Spinks /Augusta
November 19th, 2010
3:21 pm
Dr. Wayne Frazier, principal of Glenn Hills High School in the Richmond County School System, has an “Open Door” policy for parents of his students. Dr. Frazier WELCOMES unannounced parental visits to his school. All GA public schools should have such a policy. Georgia taxpayers should insist upon such an “Open Door.” Georgia parents should be the first to avail themselves of it.
Warrior Woman
November 19th, 2010
3:53 pm
If APS and Decatur City Schools are doing such a great job, why are no schools from either district among the top 20 schools in GA by average SAT scores? That list is limited to schools in Fulton, Cobb, and Gwinnett, plus 1 school in Dekalb County, according to the College Board and the AJC. http://www.ajc.com/news/georgias-average-sat-scores-612437.html.
When you rank the GA school systems by average SAT and ACT scores, neither APS nor Dekalb County is anywhere near the top.
Decatur City does well for SAT scores and reasonably well for ACT scores, but ACT scores are lower than Forsyth County, Fayette County, Cobb County , Fulton County, Gwinnett County, and Cherokee County. Marietta City ranks below all these counties as well on ACT and SAT scores. This is using the same data your reader used to attack white flight, but tells a much different story.
An American Patriot
November 19th, 2010
3:58 pm
Grady folks…..beware of Beverly Hall……she’s gonna find a way to “fix” the problems at the southside Atlanta schools and you’re on her radar.
Gail
November 19th, 2010
4:00 pm
Grady Parent
As a black middle class parent in SW Atlanta, I definitely wanted to send my children to Grady. It’s a good school, regardless of what some on this blog think. The ghetto culture is seeping into the SW schools more and more. And unless someone does something to stop it, there will be more parents fleeing. I did my part, but there’s only so much a small minority of parents can do. There were more parents at PTA in the small elementary school on the north side than a high school with six times as many students.
Grady Parent
November 19th, 2010
4:14 pm
@Gail, I feel your angst as a fellow parent. I am sorry. What are your thoughts on having the APS central office people have to send their kids to schools in SW, SE or other schools besides Inman and Grady? Think they would support their whole school district?
What about having the money follow the child? Not Vouchers, but allow a parent whose school continually fails at making AYP to take all their money to either a private school or a better school in a different district? I would jump at a chance to send my kid to Riverwood Charter High in Sandy Springs.