If students don’t want to hear prayers over PA system, they can “put their fingers in their ears.”

I sometimes mourn the fact that I won’t have children to raise. Yet the more I read the news these days I feel quite content I won’t be responsible for bring a soul in this world to contend with the cooks running our world. We are suppose to be a FREE country. FREE from communities where others will is imposed upon us.

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The Gwinnett BOE always opens with a prayer. Every time I’ve gone, the leader of the prayers ends with “In Jesus’ name, amen”. Uh, World Class schools? Only about 30-35% of the world is Christian. I was raised as such, but also with respect for the beliefs of others, especially if we’re “world class”.

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We are a Republic, So the amount one pays in taxes really is irrelevant. By David Sims reasoning, Bill Gates should get more votes than he or I. That is not the way this country works. Anyone that has studied Thomas Jefferson’s work knows how he was meticulous about keeping the church out of state and the state out of religion. All of you that want prayers in public places must understand that. Should you insist on prayers before games, during school, at civic meetings, then you must allow prayers from Muslims, Wiccans, Buddists, Hindus, etc. Do you not get that? The world and this country is so very diverse, you cannot allow one without the other, so, you allow none. And to all of you holier than thou Bible thumpers…doesn’t your own Bible admonish you to pray in a closet? There are many examples where the wise men of the Bible chide those who want to show the world how devout they are with public works and deeds. They were wise because they knew that those that want those types of public displays are usually the most hypocritical. If you want to pray, do it at home or do it in the house of worship of your choice. And if you choose not to pray at all, our Constitution allows that–without being put into stocks in the public square or being burned at the stake for heresy. If you don’t like that, I suggest you move to a country with an institutionalized religion, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia.

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Too bad these supposed Christians have spent so little time study the Christian scriptures. Jesus made it pretty clear how he felt about this sort of public prayer.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. (Matthew 6:5-6, King James Version)

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Darn, Deborah, you beat me to it!

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School administrators like the ones at Soddy-Daisy are not confused about the Constitution; they don’t give a flying you-know-what about the Constitution, unless of course someone tries to deprive them of one of their rights. Then it’s a different story.

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Deborah…would you run for governor? Please?

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The way I look at it: As long as they give test in school, there “will” be prayers!

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From the article…”“Students are a captive audience, they’re required to go to school. When there is a violation like a prayer at a school, they’re really vulnerable; it’s a violation of their civil rights,” she said.”

Football games are not a captive audience, no one is required to go. Graduation ceremonies are likewise not a required event.

In any case, I submit that just because there is prayer that does not mean you have to listen or take part. You ever talk to someone at a game that has no clue as to the score, who has the ball, or any details at all about the game even though is it being played in front of them, and called over the loudspeakers? How is it they don’t know? They are not listening, or paying attention. It’s the same with prayer. If you don’t want to listen, then don’t. Keep talking and socialized with your friends. Personally, I do not care if there is public prayer before a game or not. If there is not private prayer in the lives of those there, playing or not, it doesn’t matter anyway. A prayer over a loudspeaker before a game won’t make a bit of difference to anyone that doesn’t pray for themselves privately. In fact, a small group praying together during the game might be a better way to go.

As for biblical prayer, Jesus said to not make prayer a public spectacle. He himself prayed before meals, with his small group of disciples, to large groups of 15000 or more. There are many examples of public prayer in the bible.

Someone asked what are the prayers for. No, not to win the game, but for the safety of those involved. With all the debate these days on how to stop injury due to the hard hitting nature of the game, that seems like a good idea to me.

And lastly…atheists. What can you say about atheists? They get all worked up about something they “say” they believe to be no more real than Cindy Lou Who. But I do not believe in atheists. Romans 1:19-20 says “since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” God says all people know He exists. He also says in Psalms 14:1 “The fool says in his heart, `There is no God.”

OK, one more thing, why does someone always call Christians “Bible thumpers?” Really? Because we have a relationship with God and believe the Word He gave, we are “thumpers?” Stereotype much?

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Think before you post. There is an internet phenomenon known as “trolls”—sad, pathetic losers who deliberately post inflammatory comments to get a reaction. It’s the only way they can get attention, Lord knows no one pays attention to them in the real world.

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As an agnostic, I’m not thrilled about organizations like FCA on the school campus, but I understand and basically agree with the legal reasoning behind allowing them to meet there. Other little things are really starting to bother me, though. Once again, my school’s big December charity project will be to gather donations (toys, socks, personal items) for an international organization that’s an arm of a highly evangelical church. The promotional materials the sponsoring teacher shows here on campus are secular, but if you go to the website, it’s all about “spreading the word of the Good Lord”. (I won’t say which organization, but you can probably figure it out.) This is at a metro Atlanta public school. I’m quite fine with donation drives for groups like the Red Cross, Salvation Army and MUST Ministries, because they provide assistance without directly proselytizing. Giving — as a school — to one with an explicit evangelical mission bothers me because of the implied endorsement. Obviously, these types of events are opt-in/out, and they don’t quite fall under the First Amendment’s perview. But from what teachers at other schools have told me, this type of thing is getting more and more common in metro Atlanta public schools, and it blurs too many lines.

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Ah, I mention the Holocaust tale tangentially, as an illustration, and promptly does the Jewish reaction team arrive. All right then. Let us examine the Holocaust tale in some detail.
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@JenniferHelfrich. “I’m not sure how questioning the Holocaust relates at all to prayer in school…”

It’s simple. The Jesus story is a Christian pseudo-historical account of how someone was put to death in a cruel and unjust manner, from which everyone should learn moral lessons. The Holocaust story is a Jewish pseudo-historical account of how many people were killed in a cruel and unjust manner, from which everyone should learn moral lessons. I used the Holocaust as a metaphor. However, it has become a matter of religious fervor with Jews, nearly all of whom defend the “historicity” of the Holocaust in the same way that Creationists defend the “inerrancy” of the King James Bible. Does that make my purpose clear?

“My family comes from Germany…”

What a coincidence. So does part of mine. This means something?

“…my Opa was forced to serve in the Nazi army or his family would have been killed.”

You’ll understand that I don’t know whether you are telling the truth or not.

“Another relative spent 2 years in a concentration camp because someone overhead him saying disparaging remarks about Hitler.”

That’s certainly possible. After all, Alexandr Solzhenitsyn’s first trip to the gulag was for making a disparaging remark about Stalin. But, again, I don’t know whether you are telling the truth or not.

“I’ve heard the stories from the mouths of people that lived through it. Let me assure you – that ‘modernized religious fantasy’ was very real.”

You “assure” me, you say. But how good is your epistemology? How is it that you really know what you say you do? Lots of people think that Jesus was the Son of God. I don’t. Possibly, you don’t either. Belief ought to be examined more carefully than it usually is. Alas, it isn’t, and just because you believe that something is true does not make it so.

“I’ve stood at Dachau where the stench of burning humans never completely goes away.”

Hyperbole. Why do you use it? Take a bunch of blindfolded people, separately, to Dachau, don’t tell him where he is, and have him smell the air. How many of them will report smelling “the stench of burning humans” or something similar thereto? Not many, I suspect.

American and British soldiers did find large piles of human corpses when they captured Dachau (and also at Belsen), but the dead had not been murdered. They died of typhus during an epidemic of that disease late in the war. The Nazis had been cremating the bodies to prevent the spread of infection. And that’s where the smell of burning corpses came from. Not that you can actually smell it today, of course.

There’s something about the official Jewish version of the Holocaust tale you might not have heard. Nobody, any more, is saying that the Nazis gassed Jews at any of the concentration camps within Germany itself, including Dachau and Belsen. Although years ago, the Jewish Holocaust promoters held a firm conviction that the Nazis were mass murdering Jews in Dachau, this is no longer the case. The Holocaust promoters are still claiming that large numbers of Jews were gassed in the Nazi concentration camps in Poland, although the numbers of alleged victims has been reduced by about a factor of three since the claims were originally made. But here, too, the major cause of death was typhus, and there is no reliable evidence for gas chambers at all. There’s Jewish testimony, but not everyone considers that to be “reliable.” What physical evidence there is weighs against the gas chamber story. For example, the chemical compounds normally to be found on and in iron-bearing bricks that are exposed for a long time to hydrogen cyanide gas are not present in the alleged “gas chambers” except in traces consistent with an annual fumigation (to kill rats) which are also found in the guards’ barracks.

“It was the most disturbing thing I’ve ever seen in my entire life – and I sight I will never forget. When you trivialize the Holocaust, you perpetuate ignorance and hate in a world that could use peace and understanding.”

No, when I correct the popular misunderstandings about the historical events related to the Holocaust story, I combat ignorance and lies in a world that could use more freedom and understanding.

Let me try to teach you something. The Second World War killed somewhat more than 50 million people. The biggest claim (and false) about the number of Jewish victims in that war is 6 million, or 12% of the total. Why, therefore, is WW2 victimhood today regarded as an especially Jewish thing?

Norman Finkelstein, a Jew himself, says that Jews (such as Elie Wiesel) have been using the memory of the Holocaust as an ideological weapon, so that Israel, “one of the world’s most formidable military powers, with a horrendous human rights record, can cast itself as a victim state.” Bingo. That’s not only the reason for the “abuse” of the Holocaust story; it’s the reason that story was fabricated in the first place.

More recently, the Holocaust story has been put to use as a basis for extorting money corporations and European governments for alleged complicity in “Nazi war crimes.” The reason it works is that the Jews can deny trade in the United States (and perhaps elsewhere) to corporations, and contrive sanctions against governments, that reject dishonest Jewish demands for “compensatory” payouts.

Do you see why the most informed people are sometimes the most antisemitic?

Norman Finkelstein’s claim is supported by Raul Hilberg, who is regarded as the founder of Holocaust studies. Hilberg said that Finkelstein’s book expresses views that he, himself, subscribed to in substance, in that he too found the exploitation of the Holocaust “detestable.” When asked whether the book might play into the hands of neo-Nazis for antisemitic purposes, Hilberg replied: “Well, even if they do use it in that fashion, I’m afraid that when it comes to the truth, it has to be said openly, without regard to any consequences that would be undesirable, embarrassing.”

That’s what I’m doing now.

David Cole is a Jew who went to Auschwitz with his yarmulke and a video camera in order to take “the tour.” Because he was Jewish, the tour guide gave him the works. But, unknown to her, David Cole was a skeptic. He was a perceptive and logical fellow, and he made a film documentary about the flaws in the “Nazi gas chamber” story that he noticed. If you want to read about it, go here:

http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gccolevisit.html

Sometime later, David Cole found himself being threatened with assassination by the Jewish Defense League. Under that pressure, Cole recanted. He was like Galileo, in that sense. But, despite the recantation, his first opinion was probably the right one, and his video documentary remains good as a critical examination of inflated Holocaust claims.
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@CP. Have you considered the possibility that an antisemite is simply someone who knows what’s going on?

On the matter of rights and religion in regard to public schools, you say that everyone is free to pray silently. But that’s like saying that atheists are free to put their fingers in their ears. The issue, it seems to me, is who may control school policy on religion. If the Christians have control, there will be prayer. If the atheists do, there won’t be. Taxation should serve; it should not enslave. Minorities should have their rights protected, but not so aggressively that the rights of the majority are sacrificed. To a real “freethinker” that would have been obvious.
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@DeborahinAthens. Bill Gates should get what he pays for. He has no more and no fewer civil rights than I do. His money buys him things that I can’t afford, but the law doesn’t exist to equalize economic outcomes. Or, anyway, that isn’t what it should be doing. I guess that my point is that whether you count by dollars or by heads, the Christians are the largest group in the United States directly concerned with religion, and so they ought to have the right to decide what the relationship between the church and the state will be. The fact that they do not, that they are required to labor to further some other group’s agenda with respect to religion, implies that Christians in general are in a subservient social class, in violation of their rights.
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@SBinF. David, I am a bit incredulous at your claim to be an atheist, perhaps you said it so that people wouldn’t discount your argument as fallacious and hackneyed.

Not so. I am truly an atheist. I’ve published essays on the idea that there is no need for God to explain existence, in which I assert that all you need are (1) the uncertainty principle, (2) gravity, (3) the Pauli exclusion principle, and (4) the weak anthropic principle. Right here in this blog (in the “Peachtree City middle school meanness” article), I wrote this:

Quote —–

@CynthiaM. …There’s another, and a better, way to find truth. Use an empirical method, such as the scientific method. It might take a while to work, but when it does work, it works for everybody. Anyone with the intelligence and the material prerequisites can do the same research, carry out the same experiments, get the same results, and usually reach the same set of conclusions about what the truth is. You might need a microscope, a telescope, or a chemical laboratory. But you won’t need a priest.

What the “Word of God” might be, I won’t claim to know. Christians say that the New Testament is God’s word on certain matters, such as what happens to people after they die, and the conditions for having good Afterlife circumstances rather than poor ones. But someone of a different religion will disagree, and I don’t see how aligning my thinking with the beliefs most common in my native land is a valid way of answering metaphysical questions.

Truth is not something you can find by the method of voting on what the truth is.

How do you know when a method for seeking truth is the right one? By whether it works or not. And who should be the judge of whether the method works or not? Certainly, not those with an interest in seeing it prevail. No, the judge of a method for seeking the truth should be those who do not have any reason to cheat, and who will, therefore, fairly grade the method upon its measurable results.

When do you have measurable results?

When a method for seeking the truth can, really can, cause a light to spring forth and banish darkness. When it can, really can, heal the sick. When it can, really can, allow people to communicate across thousands, or even millions, of miles. When it can, really can, bring to us knowledge of other planets and other suns. When it can, really can, give people powers that they did not have before.

Try praying up a light the next time you find yourself stuck in a dark place. When that doesn’t work, reach for your flashlight and switch it on. And instead of thanking God for your light, you should thank James Clerk Maxwell, Michael Faraday, Joseph Henry, James Watt, and Thomas Edison. Although some of these men believed in the same God that you do, they’d have accomplished nothing if their method for discovering the truth remained limited to reading scripture, for the answers are not to be found there. Some scientists are religious. Their success as scientists depends on their consistent abandonment of faith as the means by which truth is discovered, in favor of the same empiricism that every atheist scientist also uses.

And if trying to pray up a light never works for you when you are in a dark place, then why should prayers have any effect upon the course of a sick person’s disease, or speed someone’s recovery from injury? The only difference is that you can’t avoid the fact that the light still isn’t there after you’ve prayed for it—you’ll still stumble around and bump into things in the dark as much after praying as you did before. But when the supposed results are not in your direct sight, you can deceive yourself into thinking that you have “done something” that “made a difference,” although you have not.

—– end of quote.

So, yes. I’m an atheist. Really!
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“We have a Constitution to protect the MINORITY. So what if most of the country identifies is Christian? The establishment clause is pretty darn clear.”

No. We have a constitution to describe a form of government and to specify the powers that properly belong to it. The protection of minorities’ rights is a good idea, provided that it does not involve the sacrifice of the rights of the majority. That’s an important caveat that leftists frequently enjoy ignoring. The epitome of a minority having all the rights while the majority has none is a dictatorship. The more the majority is required to sacrifice their rights, so that minorities can have more rights, the closer to dictatorship the country moves.

What the Establishment Clause in the US Constitution says is that government will keep its hands off the people as they pursue certain freedoms. Congress shall, for example, make no law respecting an establishment of religion—and, by extension, government agents shall not infringe on the freedom of religion as if there were such laws. What the people do with their freedom, under constitutional circumstances, is entirely up to them. If they want to have public schools with prayer in them, they should pay to have them built, and then their prayers should be allowed to propagate through them as copiously as they might wish them to. Anyone who does not like to hear Christian prayers should do what the Christians did: tax themselves to build their own schools, then send their children to attend them. Socialism is BAD ENOUGH when minorities are robbed through taxation. It’s EVEN WORSE when the majority is robbed thereby.

“To the philosophical point, I don’t understand why so many Christians feel the need to force their religion on everyone else in a showy fashion. Jesus taught that if we live like Christians, we will bring others to Christianity by our ACTIONS, not by our empty, public words.”

If Christians controlled the media and could determine which kind of character on television programs were the heroes. If they could choose which good deeds shown the most brightly on the evening news. If they could, though the talent of movie actors, demonstrate why their culture is better than another, then their message would reach the people who otherwise would have no contact with it. But Christians don’t control the media. Jews do. So what you get is perversion, violence, vapid sanctimony on gender issues, political correctness on racial issues, and a kind of stealth advocacy for socialism.

“After all, isn’t that where he diverged from the religious thought of his day? He preached against the Pharisees who were sure to pray loudly and openly in public, just so that everyone could see how ‘pious’ they were.”

Jesus also said, “Go ye unto all the world and preach the gospel.” He probably meant wherever it seems that the gospel needs a greater hearing. A Christian might tell you that you don’t need to go far. Certainly, Jesus despised the Pharisees, who were greedy Jews who spoke fine prayers with their mouths while cheating money out of people with their hands. I don’t think it was the prayers that bothered him most.

“Prayer is not supposed to be public, it’s a private matter, so says the Bible. Unfortunately, the Bible seems less of a guide for Christians, and more of a bludgeon, to beat people over the head with.”

The Bible is their scripture, and they believe that it contains value and wisdom. Now, you and I might disagree on how much value and wisdom the Bible contains, but that’s not really the point. The point is they are having to do most of the work to generate the money to build public schools, but when the time comes to make religion-related policy for those schools, the Christians aren’t getting as much say as they have paid for. We atheists are getting the whole of that pie by a misinterpretation of the First Amendment, whereas they are left with none.

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Religion is for the feeble minded who need someone to tell them how to think. Just because you are lacking in mental faculties, doesn’t mean the rest of us should be subjected to your propaganda. Everyone but agnostics are delusional. Although there is a good chance atheists are right, they have no proof either.

David Sims needs to find gainful employment instead of making uninitiated, asinine comments that only show his lack of comprehension of the various subjects he attempts to write about.

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Maureen, why do you let David Sims post so much? Hes looking for his 15 minutes and you’re giving him more than that. His posts inhibit the rational debate and diminish the quality of your blog.

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@Feeble Minded. Would you care (or dare) to be more specific about any errors you believe I’ve made? I thought not.

The intelligence of the Christians is not the point, here. The amount of wisdom to be found in the Bible isn’t the point, either. The central issue is whether the Christians ought to pay taxes to build schools in which we atheists have religion related policies all our own way.

Naturally, we think that our way is a better way, and that school children will be better educated if they don’t have to spend hours out of their day listening to a priest or a preacher, instead of a math or a science teacher. And, likewise naturally, THEY think that a Bible class would have the greater value. They and we disagree. Verily. Certainly. But why is the law backing us against them? Whence came our leverage on government, sufficient to cause an interpretation of the First Amendment that favors our way of thinking so much?

I think that this leverage isn’t really ours, and that atheists (militant ones unlike myself) have the benefit only coincidentally. The purpose of that interpretation isn’t really to benefit us, or to benefit the United States. It is, rather, to destroy the Christian culture which once was dominant here. Conservative Christian writers, with whom I have often disagreed on one thing or another, are probably right about that.

“Everyone but agnostics are delusional. Although there is a good chance atheists are right, they have no proof either.”

You are, apparently, ignorant about what agnostics and atheists are. Allow me to enlighten you.

The word atheist is constructed from the Latin prefix a- and the Latin root word theist. The prefix means “not” or “without.” It does not mean “opposed to.” If you want to say “opposed to” in Latin, the prefix to use is “anti-.”

An atheist is, simply, “not a god believer.” Atheism is “without belief in gods.”

Atheists have permission to be anti-theists as well, but this isn’t mandatory. A perfectly good atheist is someone who has no opinion about gods whatever.

Agnostics, though, do have an opinion, although it pertains to knowledge of gods, rather than to gods themselves. Agnostics have the belief that it is not possible to prove whether gods exist, or not.

Atheists don’t necessarily have that belief, either—although, once again, they may. Agnostics necessarily take a definite epistemological position that atheists may refrain from taking. Hence atheism (of the plain vanilla kind) is the most reasonable position in regard to theistic belief, because it is the only position that does not require faith.

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For those who really care..
Christs commandment to all who believe is to preach the gospel to all the world. He didnt say He would give Christians a pass when they are in school. He did also say render to Caesar what is Caesars regarding paying taxes… ”
If Peter Paul and the rest listened to the authorities, then Christ would not have been preached in those times.
In the old testament Joshua said ” Chose this day whom you will serve”,for me and my household we choose God.
My biggest question is what is wrong with prayer?.. If it offends some then they can do something else for a minute of two. If I dont want to hear about lets say the ” Inquisition, or the Holocaust, or Pol Pot and its taught should i run to a lawyer and complain.
The tail does not wag the dog…
I SAY THIS,, If you are afraid of Christ and Christianity or Judaism or Islam, then I pity you.
My bible says every knee will every tongue confess that Christ Jesus is Lord.
Now Christ was either
1) A liar, He lied to all about being the Son of God
2) He was deluded and just thought He was the Son of God
or
3) He is Lord who is whom He claimed to be
He didn’t leave room for other interpretations
Each person will have to chose which they want to believe that He is.
You can say I choose not to believe in any of the 3.
Well I can choose to not believe in gravity but if I jump out a 4 story window I will not fall UP!!
The 10 commandments Michael so aptly commented about were not given to show mankind how they should live.
They show mankind that they cant live up to them perfectly therefore exposing the fact that ALL have sinned…
Is there any here who can say they have never sinned…( and it be the truth) lets hear it.
David,
the Bible says with God all things are possible, if He wanted to give you a light He is able to do so. Read 1KINGS 18 about how God showed His might consuming the water rocks and all of the sacrifice of Elijah the prophet.
Well hopefully God will be allowed to attend school again one day.

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For all you good “Christian” folks out there, let me tell you about my childhood in DeKalb in the 60’s where my third grade teacher had us read from the bible every day. We had one Jewish student, Jeffrey, our class. She would tell Jeffrey every morning that we would read the “words of Lord” and if Jeffrey wanted to go sit out in the hall so he would not have to listen, he could. Do you want to know how the good Christian boys would beat up on Jeffrey at recess because he was “different” or “he killed Jesus”? Children do not have fully developed brains – most men do not do not have their reasoning sides knit together until their late-20’s. In the case of Glenn Beck and Bret Favre, we are still waiting. Is prayer that is mandated really sacred? Will mandatory prayer without substance become a rote exercise like multiplication tables? Would you want your religious beliefs and customs dictated to you by the majority? If Catholics were in the majority would you want a crucifix of Jesus in every classroom or have your child required to recite the rosary? If Baptist were in charge would you to be denied school dances or the right to buy liquor on Sunday. Whoops! Personal Freedom to worship and conduct your life as you see fit as long as it doesn’t trample on the rights of others? Remember that Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness which is one of our dearly held beliefs? In defense of Jeffrey one day, I went outside to sit with him during the Bible reading. When our curmudgeon of a teacher asked me why since I was Episcopalian, I told her, “Jesus was Jewish and he wouldn’t want to sit in the hall by himself either”. I was punished for being a smart aleck. But I was smart and maybe just a wee bit compassionate?

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@montymoose. “My bible says every knee will every tongue confess that Christ Jesus is Lord. Now Christ was either…
1) A liar, He lied to all about being the Son of God
2) He was deluded and just thought He was the Son of God, or
3) He is Lord who is whom He claimed to be
He didn’t leave room for other interpretations.”

Your list of possibilities for what Jesus was isn’t exhaustive. The omitted possibilities ought to be considered, regardless of whether Jesus “left room” for them or not.

4) Jesus was a fictional character.
5) Jesus was a real person—and perhaps he was a brave, wise, smart, and nice guy, and a natural leader—but much of the story of his life and character is fictional: what historians call “interpolated,” the filling in of gaps with speculation (whether reasonable or not).
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@ND. “David Sims — your argument only makes sense if atheist beliefs are currently being taught to children in public schools.”

Now here this. ATHEISM HAS NO BELIEFS. None! Atheism is negatively defined; i.e., defined by the absence of a particular belief, rather than by the possession of any belief. There are no beliefs which atheists hold in common. That being so, “atheist beliefs” cannot possibly be “taught” to anybody. Rather, atheists Get Their Way with regard to religion in public schools by denying a form of speech to religious people. The question is why atheists ought to have the power to do that denying, while the religious people are paying more of the costs of public education than the atheists are.

“It’s not like atheist taxpayers are able to force their atheist agenda on children right now. Non-Christians only ask that nobody’s religious beliefs, or lack thereof, are forced upon them. That’s not an unreasonable request.”

Be careful when you assume I’m too stupid to notice semantic slipperiness. Atheists might desire that “nobody’s religious beliefs” be taught in schools, but atheists are only a small subset of the larger set of non-Christians. And whereas no one can force a lack of belief on anyone, it is certainly possible to suppress someone else’s expression of belief. The question is why anyone should have the power to do that suppressing, especially when the suppressed group is paying more of the costs of the forum than the suppressors are paying.
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@”Commenting on David Sims?” “Think before you post. There is an internet phenomenon known as “trolls”—sad, pathetic losers who deliberately post inflammatory comments to get a reaction. It’s the only way they can get attention, Lord knows no one pays attention to them in the real world.”

If I am a troll, then I shall strive to be the highest quality troll since, oh… Socrates. Lost of people thought HE was a troll, too. They finally made him drink poison to shut him up.

@Deborah in Athens. I didn’t really answer your objection to my thinking that the largest say in policy-making for public institutions should go to those who pay the most to create them. You asked whether Bill Gates should have more than one vote because he is taxed at a higher rate than most of us. No, he shouldn’t. But it appears you don’t understand why it is reasonable for rich people to pay more, simple though the reason is.

There are nasty people in the world, and some of them have armies. No matter how rich you are, a big enough army can take all your property and wealth away from you. Then you’ll be poor. You don’t want to be poor, do you? Bill Gates pays (or should pay) more taxes than we do because he has more wealth to protect from powerful thieves. He benefits more from national defense and police protection than we do, simply because he has more to lose than we do. Since his benefits are greater, his part of the tax burden should be also greater.

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Those of you fearing religion encroaching on your privacy can take solace in the fact that Christianity isn’t about religion. It is ALL about a personal relationship with our Saviour, Jesus Christ. Many of those choosing not to pursue a personal relationship with Him somehow want to ensure that those in a questioning season of life don’t hear anything about Him under the guise of separation of church from state. Revival will continue however.
Am I a troll?? Where do you get your non-troll certification or is this labeling just another attempt to bully people off the internet?

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@montymoose: The liar/lunatic/lord C.S. Lewis choice doesn’t take into account that the gospel of John, where most of the claims of divinity are made, was written much later than the others gospels and long, *long* after Jesus’ death. If you want to get at the authentic Jesus, that would be in the book of Mark. If you read it with fresh eyes, you’ll see that it’s actually quite a disturbing book, where Jesus behaves oddly (poor fig tree) and shrouds himself in mystery. But even if Lewis were right, and the choices were liar/lunatic/lord, that’s a poor basis for public policy.

@Sims: the problem with your suggestion is that atheists aren’t suggesting that anyone teach that theism is foolish… or that theism is a matter of choice. We should all be able to agree that public, K-12 schools don’t mention God at all in terms of belief. (Learning about different religions is fine, including Christianity, so long as the school teaches it *academically* and does not require *practice*). Prayer is inappropriate according to the first amendment.

First amendment = no state establishment of religion
Public schools = funded by taxpayer dollars and governed through the state
—-
Ergo, public schools are not allowed to establish a religion.

Prayer as practiced in this system is a particular Christian practice.

Ergo, this school system is establishing a religion, which the Supreme Court has declared illegal.

That’s really the end of it, O’Donnell notwithstanding.

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@Shannon,

I agree. As an atheist, I am consistently irritated by being inundated with christian-themed emails, clubs, and events (Fields of Faith, anyone?). There is no doubt that christians see themselves as being in the driver’s seat here in the South, and they take advantage of it whenever possible. I understand what David Sims is trying to say about their proportional piece of the pie; however, my intentions are not to promote antitheism–something I find to be a waste of time and rather foolish. Rather, I would like to see religion removed from public school because it clearly violates the establishment clause and, in my opinion, is contradictory to the mission of education.

A friend told me that a recent Fields of Faith event, the speaker said there was more evidence for Jesus than there was for the existence of the Roman Empire. He said this to a crowd of high school students on a high school football field. To me, when we have ridiculous speakers in a position of authority making wildly unsubstantiated claims to a crowd of students, a MAJOR line has been crossed.

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Hiram High School, a public high school in Paulding County, GA, recently put a bible verse, complete with The book, chapter and verse number where it could be found, on the banner that their varsity football team runs through before the game.

I don’t know if anyone out there realizes that by doing this, they are breaking the law. It is shameful that the administration, cheerleading coaches, and school baord of Paulding County allow this to happen.

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There was plenty of prayer in my schools when I was growing up. Of course much of it was along the lines of “Dear God, I forgot my homework. Please don’t let Mr. N. call on me,” or “Dear God, I forgot to study. Help me pass this test.”

As for the rest, don’t cheapen God by linking him to the average school event or shopping holiday. Jesus died for our sins, not for sales at the mall on the Friday after Thanksgiving nor to win a football game.

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David :
I was just listing some of the most popular…If my Bible is right Jesus is who He claimed to be, your denial is problematical.
Your reasoning about Him not being a real person who lived in that time frame and did all the miracles He did and rose from the dead is attested by many. Historians of the period also vouch for the authenticity of His existence. The Jewish people of the time were under Roman rule and the attempt to kill him as a child, the particular incidents of historicity along with many many eye witnesses lead credence to His life. The fact that they killed Him for claiming to be the Son of God and God Himself was blasphemy to the Pharisees, Christianity’s spread and the power of the Holy Spirit that followed His resurrection is also true.
I myself was born Jewish, spent 7 years in Hebrew school was Bar Mitvahed at 13 and a college grad. I argued with Christians during the Jesus Freak period of the 60’s 70’s. In the 70’s friends preached Jesus and in studying the Bible I found out that He was real, God loved me, forgave me and much later filled me with His Holy Spirit and its undeniable that i’m saved from separation from God and He paid the debt I deserved to pay. I can and do attest to all this .
As far as the Holocaust is concerned Im in my 70’s . I witnessed people who were in the concentration camps who lived it so you cannot tell me it was not real. As a child I attended movies and they showed the news with horrific pictures of the camps and the people. I met people who lived it!

LASTLY,, NO ONE CAN MAKE A PERSON A CHRISTIAN no matter what they hear or read about it.
If sitting in church where the gospel is preached cannot make a person a christian listening to prayer will not do it either,
It is the hearing AND BELEIVING the Gospel that is in the Bible that leads a person to saving faith, but it is all on Gods side, its not like we can call God and force Him to have a relationship with us.
We have to choose who we will believe. Ephesians 2:8-9 and John3:16 are a few of the verses that tell us how God accomplishes reconciliation with hmankind
God already knows those who will respond to His call, for those who refuse, since they have free will, He will separate them from Himself, because they refused , not that He did not want them.
Whose fault is it if a person spends eternity separated from God,
Picture this:
A car is racing down a road , the driver comes upon a sign say BRIDGE OUT AHEAD,
He continues racing down the road, He sees red flashing lights on the side of the road
and a bigger sign warning BRIDGE OUT AHEAD
He ignores the lights and signs,
Farther down the road are men with flags waving trying to stop the car from continuing
on but the person ignores the men,
Finally He speeds to the end and drops into the chasm because there is no bridge to take him across
WHOSE FAULT IS IT THAT HE DIED
God is not the cause anyone is separated from Him forever since when we die physically we will live for ever either with God or separated, WE REFUSE HIS CALL
God gives all wondrous signs to avoid separation from His love

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I, and I am quite sure 99.99% of taxpayers, “contribute” monies toward education so that we might, someday, see a younger generation armed with the smarts necessary to sustain civilization. If the kid wishes to pray, sprinkle foo foo dust, or exercise any form of personal belief, let this activity take place on the kids’ time, NOT MINE for which I am funding. The state of education is woeful enough without redirecting academic time toward issues of a religous nature.

Is religion an important ingredient of a well-educated individual? ABSOLUTELY! Just as important as affiliations which enable us to become broadened citizens…Scouts, Church, Clubs of one flavor or another…however, these affiliations come at appropriate times and places. Put the Crosses, along with the sports equipment, Scout uniforms, etc, in the bag and CONCENTRATE on learning the 3 Rs, for cryin out loud. THESE are what is enable the younger gens to become productive citizens. The other stuff? Thats what time at home, The Church, the ball fields, the weekends, etc are for.

Let’s learn to prioritize the limited resource known as the 12 year educational pipeline.

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We can’t allow establishment of religion. If we’re going to have Christian prayers over the PA we need to balance them with equal time for Muslim prayers, Jewish prayers, Hindu prayers, Buddhist prayers and Wiccan prayers.

If Christians don’t want to hear them they can put their fingers in their ears

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tsk tsk tsk

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Mind-blowing that these TeaBaggeresque types love to claim they are “Constitutional conservatives,” yet only seem to know the 2nd amendment (and nothing else). No wonder conservatives are so anti-”government” schools and anti-”liberal” colleges and universities; it seems an educated and intelligent electorate is their worst enemy. Hopefully, Charles Darwin was right and only the fittest will survive (bad news for conservatives, if true).

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The First Amendment prevents the government from establishing religion! So no one should be forced to follow those crazy Christian beliefs…

Hail Satan!

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Someone explain to me how “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” can be interperated as “separation of church and state”? Or even how it applies to public prayer?

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@ monty moose I think your point has been made by these latest posts.

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“Students are a captive audience, they’re required to go to school. When there is a violation like a prayer at a school, they’re really vulnerable; it’s a violation of their civil rights,” Err, yeah, but isn’t the issue prayers at football games and graduation ceremonies? While school attendance is required, football games aren’t.

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Religion is a personal matter, not one that should be forced upon others, especially children. It is a parent’s choice whether or not to include religion in a child’s life. No school board in this country has any right to do that, and that is a protection provided by the first amendment. The Framers included this issue because they, too, were forced to worship in ways that they did not agree with. I was raised Nazarene and Presbyterian, but am now an atheist. To the gentleman who earlier tried to equate this issue with the Holocaust, you give atheists everywhere a bad name. You are a fool. This is a First Amendment issue in a free country, and has no correlation whatsoever to a policy of genocide in a totalitarian dictatorship. You make about as much sense as Glenn Beck. He’s a fool as well.

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I have to admit that it’s a little silly to be praying up to some invisible buddy in the sky. Especially on a football field. Religion is like an anchor that progressive society has to drag around. If religion has to be taught it should be taught in churches. Go pray there, it’s fine with everybody. Schools are not the place for either prayer or reciting a ‘pledge of allegiance’. It just gets annoying after a while.

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It would be pretty delicious if “cooks” ran our world though.

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@SBinF, you said: “We have a Constitution to protect the MINORITY”

In the strictest terms, that is not true. The Constitution protects the majority every bit as much as it protects the minority. Can you tell me which part of the Contitution protects ANYONE from being offended? Can you tell me where in the Constitution it even MENTIONS a relationship between any individual state and any religion? I’m afraid that you can’t.

You see, the only restriction MENTIONED in the Constitution is placed on CONGRESS and that restriction is in regard to the CONGRESS establishing ONE RELIGION as an OFFICIAL UNITED STATES RELIGION. You see, they were kind of sensitive about that since in England you had to belong to A PARTICULAR DENOMINATION (the Anglican Church) to avoid PERSECUTION. So tell me, is there an OFFICIAL RELIGION of the U.S.? NOPE. Did the AUTHORS of the Constitution intend for the establishment clause to apply to: 1) State Governments? 2) School Districts? 3) Individual Public Schools? NOPE. If they had, they would have explicitly stated so. ALSO, they would not have been so SPECIFIC when they EXPRESSLY said that CONGRESS would make no laws.

So did the S.C. err in their interpretation? NOPE. The S.C. erred in their ACTIVISM. They did essentially what ALL politicians do. The rewrote the Constitution to fit their own bias and political slant. IF the federal government wants the Constitution to prohibit it, then there is a method for changing it. They know that the American people will never stand for that so they circumvented the LEGAL PROCESS for changing it and accomplished it through the courts so that it would appear to be legitimate.

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@Mark “Personally, I do not care if there is public prayer before a game or not.” Fine. Then stop doing it. There are people who have a right not to hear this.

“As for biblical prayer, Jesus said to not make prayer a public spectacle.” And what could be more of a spectacle in America than a football game?

“Someone asked what are the prayers for. No, not to win the game, but for the safety of those involved.” So, the one who prays hardest gets the least injuries? Or did the ones who inevitably get injured not pray hard enough? How’s that work?

“And lastly…atheists. What can you say about atheists? They get all worked up about something they “say” they believe to be no more real than Cindy Lou Who.”

To this I’ll just let you eat your own words: “Stereotype much?”

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“But I do not believe in atheists”

And I do not believe in Zeus nor any of the other “gods” people have believed in throughout the centuries. We’re all atheists to someone’s god, some of us just go one step further.

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These Christian zealots will not rest until they can have slaves, women are stoned to death again, rape is decriminalized and children start dying in droves from preventable causes.

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With so many so called “Christian leaders” (followers too) stealing money with tv pitches, etc (from not only the delusional, but poor senior citizens who are gullible), inciting murder, torture and the like for hundreds of years, I would trust a Wiccan far more than any Christian. Admittedly I don’t believe as they do, but I trust their integrity.

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Maureen — Thanks for banning David Sims’ comments. While I know there are people like him in the world, I hate being reminded every time I read this blog.

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@Maureen Downey. I must agree with Lisa. Although some of his comments were questionable, they were very knowledgeable and appear to be factual. It’s a shame that someone came in here to comment on this and when people were offended, instead of telling them to cover their eyes (ala “put their fingers in their ears”), they were removed and not allowed to come back. Censorship, it’s what causes most people to not care and stop trying because someone in power will just shut them up because they “offended” someone.

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The United States is born out of Religious groups who fled persecution in England. As such the founders of the country wanted it to be equally fair to people who practice all religions including none at all. The only way to be equally fair to all Religions is to prevent any religion from having a say in the government or public education.

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html

Convinced that religious liberty must, most assuredly, be built into the structural frame of the new [state] government, Jefferson proposed this language [for the new Virginia constitution]: “All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution”: freedom for religion, but also freedom from religion. (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 38. Jefferson proposed his language in 1776.)

A professorship of Theology should have no place in our institution [the University of Virginia]. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper, October 7, 1814. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 492.)

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever? (James Madison, “A Memorial and Remonstrance,” addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: The Citadel Press, pp. 459-460. According to Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, pp. 39 ff., Madison’s “Remonstrance” was instrumental in blocking the multiple establishment of all denominations of Christianity in Virginia.)

Yeah I would say that the Framers are pretty clear on thier stance of no religion in public institutions.

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@Lisa & Kan
Hate speech is not encompassed by freedom of speech. Antisemitism and holocaust denial is neither intelligent, knowledgeable, nor factual. It’s just hate.

@Maureen Downey
It’s good to see a little sense and reason floating around the web sometimes. Especially in a comments section. Cheers.

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Amazing! haha! David Sims provides logically sound reasoning and is rewarded with a ban because his style of communication is so unrecognizable by others. Shame on those who called for censorship of his unconventional ideas.

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Where is the ban hammer? If church came to my child’s school. I would put someone on a cross….

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confused,

Not in a public school.

Maureen,

Though I find David Sims comments misguided and backed up by twisted statistics and spurious sources, I’m not sure if banning him is the proper reaction. There’s a scroll bar on the right side for those who wish to skip his particular brand of eloquently conveyed racism.

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Yes, it’s still me, the snotty atheist:

Hi confused-I know you are being serious and you deserve a serious answer. As I was growing up in the south, in Harrison, Arkansas, we went to church. I went to Sunday school (although that didn’t go so well after I asked whether Jesus had returned to being a carpenter after he rose from the dead) and was educated at home by my grandfather who lived his life through the ten commandments. Never mentioned the bible at home, just taught us by example. And we paid attention to him because we loved him. I think now as I thought now that it is possible to receive a good religious education simply by going to church, having like minded friends around that share your values, by living a life of honesty. I know it is hard to be in your position but you DO have teachers who believe in christian ideas. They are the people in your church.

No really, it’s me.

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message for stormport and david sims: tl;dr

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Maureen Downey: I hope you do not contemplate censoring David Sims. I realize that someone who does not speak in soundbites only is difficult for an American to follow and understand but some things can only be said with contextual background. You might consider doing a little study of your own regarding the verity of what you, yourself, believe. As an ‘educator’, it is absolutely essential, I would think, that you know what you are talking about. Your job is not to teach popular opinion but to teach facts so that your programmees can reach their own conclusions (wouldn’t it be nice). David Sims IS exactly on topic when he discusses what is happening in America today because, with you as a convenient example, there is a hugely significant chasm between American popular belief and the physical facts of which you are totally unaware. You also demonstrate that you have no respect whatsoever for truth unless it’s ‘feel-good’ truth. You are exactly what is maintaining the current destructive path of our national disgrace. When coherent discussion of the most profound questions of our current existence are dissed as being ‘too serious’ for inclusion in an ostensibly education oriented blog (LOL) because you have been propagandized into an artificial taboo (You Are BAD If You Criticize the Zionists), you kneejerk when such an important topic is broached even in a completely appropriate and rational way as Mr. Sims has done here. If I were reviewing your educational credentials, this would not be a plus but, really, a cause for revocation. Kneejerk denial and condemnation of unpopular opinion as a personal trait is what caused Giordano Bruno to be burned alive in the Square of the Flowers in Rome in 1600CE when he ignored such voices and continued to insist that the earth went around the Sun not the reverse. Please, just do your homework. The classroom is exactly not the place for incorrect personal opinion such as you demonstrate here. Teacher, educate thyself! Please, for the good of us all. A zionist makes a jihadi look like Mother Teresa, or does the use of White Phosphorus on a largely unarmed concentration camp population, incinerating men, women, children with such enthusism that the zionists killed the majority of their own casualties themselves, all 11 compared to 1300 Palestinians slaughtered, does this seem ok to you? Oh, I see. The Palestinians were shooting homemade bottle rockets which could only reach as far as the latest land theft, to get the attention of the zionists to the fact that their blockade of food and medicine to Gaza was killing many children, and this plea justified such slaughter? Hmmm. Is that it? That ‘Israel’ is a 100% terrorist success doesn’t matter? That Israel Pearl Harbored Egypt, or deliberately attacked an American naval vessel killing 34 American young men, or AIPAC, or the plethora of Israeli spies that we even know about, or , or, or Sigh. A ‘teacher’ who does not doubt the accuracy of their own opinion is a worthless teacher. It is not the firmness on one’s opinion that casts illumination upon others, it is depth of actual knowlege. Do your homework, ma’am, and you will serve your students well. As it is, you’ve got your fingers in your ears, methinks. And your head…?

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What I do no understand is that if Christians pray publicly, it’s considered an act against the Constitution and everyone thinks that they are forcing their religion on everyone else. But, we are all forced to learn Evolution in school. How is that not forcing scientist’s “religion” on everyone else? Everyone believes in a different way that the Earth was created and us being forced to learn only about Evolution is going against my rights. Yet everyone complains about Christians praying in public.

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One person made a comment along the lines of “let those who don’t want to pray keep socializing and talking with their friends; they don’t have to listen”.

Wow. Just…wow. So, the options you would like to see are that people either pray along with a prayer led by a school administrator, or be actively disrespectful to those who DO wish to pray? This implies that you believe that anyone who doesn’t pray along is just an inconsiderate, rude, disrespectful person by nature.

The best solution to this constant wrangling over “religion in schools” debate is to simply ban any religious expression by any member of the school faculty or administration. Religion is an intensely sacred, personal thing, and belongs in the home. Not sprawled out all over the public. it absolutely smacks of arrogant strutting – all form, no substance.

My religious beliefs make a number of people uncomfortable. I have the common courtesy to not rub their faces in it at every opportunity. Perhaps we could agree that it’s a simple matter of common courtesy to keep one’s religion to oneself, outside of church?

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yannas.,

Because science is based on FACTS and RESEARCH. Religion is based on faith, superstition, and ignorance. A true scientist, in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence, would accept the facts and change his view. A person of faith just clings tighter to his irrational beliefs and declares that everyone else is wrong. They don’t have the “truth.”

Please.

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“They cling to their guns and religion.”

True words then, true words now.

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since David’s first comment has been deleted, and David’s future is in some doubt, it leads one to wonder if Maureen will put the same standard on the constantly trolling Poor Black Man.

I doubt it, but we’ll see.

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if there is one thing the left just can’t stand is dissenting options.
right after intellectual honesty

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perhaps I could add a verb to my post, please insert does for the first not

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Thanks, A+A. I presume it to be appropriate to your capacity. But, alas, it’s in a language I have yet to study. tl;dr (?) Could you provide a translation into some form of English for us less gifted sorts?

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You, Maureen, and this blog are irrelevant. Go be a stay at home mom. Our nation will be better for it.

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>@Stormport, I am not an educator. I am a journalist. And I write and moderate a blog about education with a particular interest — my own — in policy and how policy is decided. There are dozens of blogs that debate the Israel-Palestine question. This is not one of them. The basic issue isn’t the validity of your comments, but the relevance to this space.
They are not relevant.
Maureen

Maureen, forgive me, I did not see that you had actually responded to my comments. Religion in America cannot ignore any of the isms that pustulate our body politic and their effect on educational policy. In the case at hand, the leadership of this school should be fired, immediately. What’s to argue? But what is fueling this resurgence of religious fervor? Or, maybe, WHO is fueling this resurgence? What is this resurgence causing and who is benefitting from the rerobotization of significant chunks of American heads and pointing them at each other? A national paralysis of will, as we are seeing? A robbing of the till and abuse of the people, as we are seeing? The story here is not the event but the apparent lack of subsequent and immediate regime change at that school. This is symptomatic of how far the disease has progressed in that area. America is not immune from having its own christian ayatollah considering we just had a christian chimpanzee as ayatollah who was operated by some very bad people. And the norms want to re-elect these very same people. They parasitized education for the middle class with ‘loans’ that cripple the creative potential of young people for years after school. And somehow this seems normal and appropriate to …

Sorry. I’m just ranting. You’re right. From my 17th birthday, I was trained to defend my country. When I see clear and present danger for my people, it hits a number of buttons simultaneously and I get very angry. And, (shuffle shuffle) and … rant, I suppose you will call it. No one listens so, yes, it must just be rant. I simply invite folks to investigate their own reality and doubt that they know everything and when something comes around again and again and they kneejerk again and again, maybe it’s time for some background reading…no? And, Maureen, propaganda is at the heart of all education, like it or not, and the propaganda that is ‘educating’ Americans today is pure poison for all of us. Sorry to darken your blog. I will dotter off and leave Americans to whatever Texas style absurdity they allow to happen to them. Thanks. And don’t censor David Sims. He’s a bright guy and not just because we agree (well, I agree with him). Cultivate him. Teach him journalistic parsimony. Certainly he cares and he’s very polite. You want him in your audience, I think. Bye

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Where I went to school (1992-2004 K-12) there was school lead prayer all the way through in every class. No this was not a private school. This was a public school in a small Texas town. We even got character lessons from the bible where we were taught how to be a good wife and how we are supposed to follow the teachings of Jesus (except for things like praying in private an turning the other cheek and not passing judgment on people of course). Every morning we had someone lead the entire high school in the pledge of allegiance and a prayer. One day I refused to do either and was sent to the office (Im still not sure what for exactly, for sitting down?) and was giving two weeks of ISS (stands for in school suspension: they send you to a separate building for some solitary confinement, I was in and out of there every month all the way through high school for things of this nature). Basically this taught me that if you do not agree with what the rest of us agree with or will at least play along then you dont deserve a proper education in this publicly funded school. The principle eventually reported my unwillingness to my father which prompted the converstation where I admitted to him that I did not believe in the bible an that I did not consider myself a christian. I was 15 at the time and got kicked out of the house because of this. I was living on my own and still trying to go to the same school with all of this hanging over my head. Once we had a new girl come in wearing a leather jacket with flames on it and the teacher in that class told her ‘we are christians here’, hows that for public school etiquette? This kind of bs needs to stop. It does nothing but interfere with the education of young people.

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@ bootney farnsworth

“since David’s first comment has been deleted, and David’s future is in some doubt, it leads one to wonder if Maureen will put the same standard on the constantly trolling Poor Black Man.”

David, by his own admission, is a racist and anti-Semitic but I guess you are okay with that. Whether he stays or goes is no big deal to me. He masked his views under the banner of white nationalism but all he is really selling is tribalism. Not exactly a step forward is it? But since YOU are talking about banning people why don’t we ban you. You can use the free time to get your teeth
fixed and take your 1st cousin to that second honeymoon to Branson.

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at least now Maureen has had the stones to make herself clear in this matter – insults, sexual ineuendo, personal attacks when done by someone she agrees with are just fine with her.

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I have to remind folks that these AJC blogs function as a sort of living room for the newspaper. Posters are invited guests but if they kick the dog, scare the children and break the china, they won’t be invited back.
Maureen

your own words Maureen. why does PBM – whose very name contains racial connotations – get a pass on these actions?

besides you and he being on the same page politically, walk me through in detail what DS actually said that was so damning and how when PBM makes racial, sexual, and personal attacks what he does is / how he does it is OK.

I’ll even give you one. DS is way too long winded. I quit reading him long ago for that reason.

defend these comments by PBM and give me similiar by DS.
“But since YOU are talking about banning people why don’t we ban you. You can use the free time to get your teeth
fixed and take your 1st cousin to that second honeymoon to Branson.”

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what’s the difference between DS and PBM.
simple
DS is more articulate, but more important – PBM is on Maureen’s side
of the political fence.

how’s that for brevity?

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@ bootlick fartsworth

I stated in my previous post that “David, by his own admission, is a racist and anti-Semitic but I guess you are okay with that.” Nice avoidance of the question. Btw I HIGHLY doubt that Maureen and I are on the same side of the political fence. I think both dems and repubs are corrupt. Sorry the banning of your idol got you all upset. If its bothering you that much why don’t you start your own blog? In the meantime here are som links you might find useful:

http://www.onypc.com/jw-jordan

http://www.cousincouples.com/?page=facts

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To the Christians: Is it OK if we say prayers to Allah as well? Or is it only the Christian god who’s special enough to ignore the constitution?

If we have to devote time to all the gods out there we’ll never get any work done.

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@V for Vendetta:

Your point about scientific research pointing to evolution and not possibly of how God created the earth is invalid. If scientist could prove that you evolved from a big bang that eventually created a monkey, which is what you are telling me you believe you came from, then this discussion wouldn’t even exist. I am assuming you haven’t taken the time to read articles on biblical archaeology which supports what the Bible says.With all due respect, lets stick to ALL the facts, not just the ones you choose to acknowledge.

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@Jessica – where can these articles on biblical archeology be found? I would like to read over these since I have never heard of them.

I am inferring from your post that you believe ID should be taught in school. Do you also believe prayer should be allowed in school, in the classroom and lead by a school official? Would you have a problem with all religions being represented (Buddhist, Christian, Musilm, Native American, Wiccan, Hindu, etc.)? Would you want creationist stories from other religions taught in school, or only the biblical belief?

This is the reason the First Amendment exists, so that no one religion is preferred, or sanctioned by government, over any other. Considering the mass amount of religions represented in this country, not have any laws respecting the establishment of any of them is the sound and logical solution.

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Personally I believe this whole debate is a manifestation of what I call end times apostasy and fulfillment of prophecy. I never realized that so many people are adherents to atheism and paganism totally alienating the God of the founding fathers of this country. It’s clear that this world is the domain of the devil and this country is marching to his beat.

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Stormport: it means “too long, didn’t read”

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@PBM- is there any other kind of black man?
@everybody else- Stupid people abound, and all of you who dont get butt hurt about stupid people doing stupid things will agree, and you dont fit into the aforementioned group. racists come off as ignorant, although i have to give it to Dave Sims, he sounds like if he stopped trying to rationalize his hate, he could really be something.
Oh, and Mark, You dont like hearing people complain about public prayer? stop doing it. dont give them anything to complain about, and they wont.
Im tired of the “christians this!” and “atheists that!” bull. just as much as i’m sick of the rep/dem mudfest. how about this folks: if you want to pray, you do it. if you dont want to pray, dont. neither group should get the PA.

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*Praying* Dear Lord, thank you for allowing the internet to be created so that these people can come and complain and try and make them feel better about themselves. In Jesus’ name, AMEN!

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c’mon Maureen,

still waiting for you to justify letting PBM make personal attackss as
“relevant”.

c’mon you hyprocrite. justify it, or admit you have a seperate standards for folks you agree with and folks you don’t.

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Maureen, I am having difficulty in understanding your comment regarding PBM’s statements of relevancy. One just may as well state that we do the dirty deed in the name of chastity. I certainly do not wish to appear to be casting stones, but in my honest opinion, PBM’s words are those of one whose mental capacities never quite got past the 3rd grade. Remember how, as children, we might stick our tongue out at one with whom we are in disagreement? This is precisely the mindset which seems to reside behind PBM’s words; to see your analysis of his words as relevant casts your where-with-all as highly questionable.

The topic, religous expression, has received a number of responses…all relevant to one degree or another. PBM’s remarks, however, couldn’t be any further from the issues. Historically, his comments have appeared to be those of one who is extremely insecure with self.

I, and I am quite certain, your readers, would appreciate it if you could differentiate between relevancy and the mindless ramblings of one who has never grown up to become an adult.

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@Mark At my school the graduation ceremony WAS a requirement. If you didn’t go, you weren’t allowed to have your diploma. I know because I did not want to go to my graduation ceremony because in my personal opinion it was a waste of time to sit around for two hours just so you could be handed a piece of paper in a cardboard holder.
It is all well and good to say if you don’t want to hear it don’t listen and just keep chatting or whatever but it is considered extremely rude to chit chat while someone is leading a prayer. It is disruptive to the people who want to hear the prayer and would create yet more arguments. The only real option is to sit there quietly and wait for it to be over, which of course is unfair to the people who don’t share those beliefs. I’m fine with the idea of a moment of silence because a moment of silence can be used for anything. They can sit and think over their math test if they don’t want to pray but I don’t think anyone should lead a prayer over the loudspeaker at a school sporting even if it is a public school.

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jesus was a heretic

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teacher too:

Change Gwinnett to Dusseldorf, change christian to Nazi, and I suspect your feeling of suppressed outrage but lack of power to do anything was endemic upon the German people during the 1930s and early 40s. The people who responded most positively to Hitler were the same crowd that elected the bushcabal here. And you were right to keep silent from a self-preservation perspective. Christians can be more ardent in punishment and cruelty than any Nazi ever was.

Proud Black Guy:

Please forgive my intrusion. As a white exMarine raised on the north side of Chicago who at 12 knew as many Yiddish swearwords as Anglo, maybe I missed some obvious racial slur from David Sims because, I too, am a self-unacknowledged racist (?). So, I have to ask what specifically Mr. Sims said that allows you to label him a ‘racist’ whatever that term actually means anymore having been blathered about to the extent that it has. As a Celt, am I a racist if I tell a Polish joke? As a Pole, am I a racist if I tell a Celtish joke? Race is a figment of humanzee imagination. There are geographically localized higher occurences of some alleles in some populations (sickle cell, cystic fibrosis, Tay-Sachs, for instance) but allelic variation is stronger across local populations than across all Humanzee groups in the entire gene pool. “Race” as Humanzee norms use it would hardly even qualify as ’strain’ in any other genetic discussion. Do you, yourself, see large differences in red and white roses save the tint?

You are a self-unacknowledged racist yourself, Sir. At least from your tone and the things you have said. If I were to say n****r, you would pounce like a waiting spider but you can bandy “r*dn**k or imply incest (Who’s YOUR daddy, PMB?) or suggest he get some gold put in a front tooth without even a thought to your own racism. It’s easy, isn’t it. And when someone says something that you are able to couple, however thinly, to your narrow agenda, you’re on them like slime on a slug. Interesting, dontcha think, how easily we all fall into the same traps. In fact, your ‘race-consciousness’ far outshines Mr Sims’. Taking up the issue of anti-semitism as well, because that’s always good to batter someone with, we must ask your opinion of Islamic Arabs. Today’s Jews are only fractionally ’semitic’ in any case. And we must also ask you, what of Israel’s refusal to recognize Ethiopian Jews despite a demonstrable Hebraic history way longer than the Khazars who make up most of what was the original Irgun. Israel is a “Jewish” state. Would that be different from a “White” state? Jews differ amongst their various sects to the same extent as any other identity group and zionism is the KKK/Jihadi branch. There is no prejudice in identifying Arab evil, or white people evil, why then any extra ripples when Jewish evil is described?

Because your intent is not to educate, but to attack. Whatever your life history, you prefer heat to light, clearly. Your primary identity is not American, or even better, Human. Rather it seems to be angry child (calling names…?). Somehow the boss here likes your style. Bootney is doing the same thing except he’s got his hand up trying to get Authority to do something about that awful PBM…

We take these things seriously only because we have no better reality than these things to think about. That is entirely the choice of the one feeling the emotion. Shall I maintain the same kneejerk personality or should I educate myself a bit more and grow out of the game completely? Free myself of conditioned reactions in favor of perceptually joining humanity in general, a groupless humanity, where, as an equal, you will no longer be burdened with the need to defend against the absurd. You do not feel equal now. Call me a … well, I dunno, redneck? Tall ugly person? No good whitey? Hmmm, I mean call me something equivalent to what you are always hearing from whites. I can insult you, make you angry. Why can you not do that to me? I cannot react emotionally to something that has no meaning to me. Besides, in five or six generations, we should have our own recognizable American blend of gene alleles and no one will recognize our own favorite epithets having no longer any discernable targets.

And Mr. Man, there is no more a defining species characteristic of Homo than such prejudice. It is us, Mr. Man, it is not Hutus and Tutsis, for example, or blacks and whites, or Irish and Irish, it is the Group that we perceive ourselves to be in and automatically opposed to all other perceived groups. It is not racism that we need to address but the disease that puts group identity ahead of species identity.

This group structure that is universal to Homo, like its hierarchical internal structure, is in our genes, not a particular group but the need to be in one and, then, assume the behavior of the group in which we find ourselves. Groups are very particular about their own internal structure, and jealously guard their constituent units from data pollution which might destabilize the group homeostasis. The individual unit itself is well protected from ‘corruption’ by mechanisms like denial, suppression, propaganda, leaders, intragroup pressure as experienced by “teacher too”, et cetera. Your job as a ‘thinking’ being is not to try to injure the opposition unit (here with trivial insults), this is simply war.

Your job is to bring greater light to the world of beings who live only in the dim light of their own group identity and have no idea of the dazzling array of human ideas and ways of being available to them when their perception broadens. Confrontation only enhances differences, draws the group identity into defense mode, and further restricts the individual unit’s ability to grow. You are now an agent in this process, Mr Man. Is that what you want to be?

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@ David Sims aka Stormport

jibba jabba

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@David Sims:
I wish I had as much free time as you do. I have to admit, I’m jealous of that.

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I am not Stormport. I have never posted on any AJC blog or website under any name except David Sims. Someone at AJC is probably able to check IP numbers. That check will reveal (I think) that Stormport and I are not in the same location.

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