If students don’t want to hear prayers over PA system, they can “put their fingers in their ears.”
With the testing pressures and economic woes battering public education today, why do so many school leaders wander into First Amendment minefields and take on the explosive issue of the church/state divide?
Administrators of yet another high school – Soddy-Daisy High School in suburban Chattanooga – have been permitting Christian prayers over the loudspeaker at football games and graduation ceremonies. Contacted by some frustrated students from the school, the Freedom from Religion Foundation has taken up their cause and warned the Hamilton County superintendent about the “unconstitutional government endorsement of religion.”
Under the law, students are free to bow their heads and pray in school. As the U.S. Department of Education states, students may “read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, pray or study religious materials with fellow students during recess, the lunch hour or other non-instructional time.” But a public school can’t compel students to participate in prayer or other religious activities and it can’t lead the entire school in prayer over the PA system.
According to the news story in the Chattanooga Times Free Press:
Hamilton County Board of Education member Rhonda Thurman, who represents Soddy-Daisy, said the prayers were part of the school’s tradition, and that anyone who didn’t want to hear could “put their fingers in their ears.”
“Everybody is offended by something,” she said. “I’m offended by a lot of those little girls running around with their thong panties showing, but I can’t make that go away.”
Annie Laurie Gaylor, director and co-president of the foundation, called Thurman’s remarks “irresponsible.” She cited several U.S. Supreme Court cases in which prayer before football games and graduation ceremonies were found to be unconstitutional.
The school system, she said, “has no leg to stand on” and the practice should be stopped immediately.
“Students are a captive audience, they’re required to go to school. When there is a violation like a prayer at a school, they’re really vulnerable; it’s a violation of their civil rights,” she said.
“This is the harm of religion in government, that the people who are religious believe they are the true citizens and the other people have no rights,” she said. “It’s very dangerous to go down this path of government and religion; someone will always be on the outs.”
Gaylor mentioned another area case from 2006 in which students from Bryan College, a Christian school in Dayton, Tenn., were coming to give “hour-long Bible instruction” to students in Rhea County’s public school system. The foundation eventually took that case to federal court and won, Gaylor said.
Many First Amendment violations crop up during sporting events, she said.
“It’s a lack of understanding where their personal rights stop and other people’s civil liberties begin,” she said. “It’s perfectly ridiculous to have prayer at football games. Is their deity going to help them win the game? Whoever prays the hardest wins the game? I don’t think so.”
In Hamilton County, religion in public schools is far from uncommon. From prayer before sporting events and privately funded Bible-history classes to student-led group prayers and Bible verse classroom posters, Christianity is widely accepted.
But the times may be changing, says David Eichenthal, president of the local Ochs Center for Metropolitan Studies. As more people move into the area, he said, there is likely to be a greater population of people who push against the status quo, including the tradition of pre-game prayer.
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165 comments Add your comment
A. Nuran
October 21st, 2010
2:10 pm
We can’t allow establishment of religion. If we’re going to have Christian prayers over the PA we need to balance them with equal time for Muslim prayers, Jewish prayers, Hindu prayers, Buddhist prayers and Wiccan prayers.
If Christians don’t want to hear them they can put their fingers in their ears
swampthing
October 21st, 2010
2:16 pm
Thank you, David Sims; satire is always amusing!
Proud Black Man
October 21st, 2010
2:17 pm
tsk tsk tsk
swampthing
October 21st, 2010
2:20 pm
@Montymoose: “NO ONE CAN MAKE A PERSON A CHRISTIAN no matter what they hear or read about it.”
Now if only y’all would accept that truism regarding sex education. Nobody can be made gay by hearing about it, and nobody can be made to make babies because they learned what condoms were for. Right?
Logical Dad
October 21st, 2010
2:21 pm
Mind-blowing that these TeaBaggeresque types love to claim they are “Constitutional conservatives,” yet only seem to know the 2nd amendment (and nothing else). No wonder conservatives are so anti-”government” schools and anti-”liberal” colleges and universities; it seems an educated and intelligent electorate is their worst enemy. Hopefully, Charles Darwin was right and only the fittest will survive (bad news for conservatives, if true).
Emily
October 21st, 2010
2:22 pm
Hello??? What does separation of church and state mean to people??? Why does everyone want to push religion down peoples throats? I mean, there is no proof that Jeus was even born, and the bible – WTF is up with that? The bible was probably written by someone who wanted to publish a book that was made up and meant to be read like you’re reading Moby Dick or something….
Gays should also be allowed in the miliatry…
Gays should also allowed to marry since once again, THE STUPID BIBLE is trying to ruin peoples lives.
Johnny Budz
October 21st, 2010
2:24 pm
The First Amendment prevents the government from establishing religion! So no one should be forced to follow those crazy Christian beliefs…
Hail Satan!
Do Not Want
October 21st, 2010
2:30 pm
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.
The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death…. In fact, Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery…. ….
Serious – There is something very unhealthy about Christianity
Hank Reardon
October 21st, 2010
2:38 pm
Someone explain to me how “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” can be interperated as “separation of church and state”? Or even how it applies to public prayer?
Aalim
October 21st, 2010
2:38 pm
When I first moved to this country I was concerned about the constant stories about “godless Americans” I heard in Saudi Arabia. I was happy to see just how often Americans promote prayer in school. I did not think Americans allowed such things, but it makes me most happy. My childrens’ school does not yet have prayer over the announcement system, but by the grace of Allah I will convince the principle to start daily readings from the Koran.
Pluto
October 21st, 2010
2:53 pm
@ monty moose I think your point has been made by these latest posts.
another comment
October 21st, 2010
2:56 pm
I went to both Catholic and Public Schools up North. Their were no prayers in Public Schools up North. The public school bus took us to and from Catholic School.
When I moved down to Atlanta, 27 years ago, I was shocked to here that Catholics weren’t Christians. No just the original Christian Religion before all the break away Christian secs. I was just amazed and continue to be amazed at the Christians who change to suit themselves on a daily or weelky basis. Who ever heard of a prosperity ministry to enrich your homophobo minister it is about taking care of the least of your brother.
My children can have prayer in private school but not in public school or public meetings.
Bar Tender
October 21st, 2010
2:59 pm
“Students are a captive audience, they’re required to go to school. When there is a violation like a prayer at a school, they’re really vulnerable; it’s a violation of their civil rights,” Err, yeah, but isn’t the issue prayers at football games and graduation ceremonies? While school attendance is required, football games aren’t.
JK
October 21st, 2010
3:01 pm
@hank reardon: If the government is actively involved in religion, then it’s likely to be either helping establish religion or limiting the free exercise of it. School administrators leading prayers: establishing that particular relgion. A prohibition on individual students from praying: limiting the free exercise. The test isn’t whether a religious institution or belief is involved- the government can have dealings with explicitly religious organizations (e.g. Salvation Army, Boy Scouts). The test is whether the government is implicitly or explicitly endorsing (promoting) or quashing (limiting) a religion.
The problem in the article is really not public prayer. The problem is that agents of the state (school administrators) are leading it. Public school students are allowed to pray publicly, but the school (which is an extension of the government) can’t lead it.
And unless you’re happy to have other religions’ services (e.g. buddism, islam, satanism, paganism) be in public schools too, the separation doctrine is a good thing.
Christopher Lewis
October 21st, 2010
3:18 pm
Religion is a personal matter, not one that should be forced upon others, especially children. It is a parent’s choice whether or not to include religion in a child’s life. No school board in this country has any right to do that, and that is a protection provided by the first amendment. The Framers included this issue because they, too, were forced to worship in ways that they did not agree with. I was raised Nazarene and Presbyterian, but am now an atheist. To the gentleman who earlier tried to equate this issue with the Holocaust, you give atheists everywhere a bad name. You are a fool. This is a First Amendment issue in a free country, and has no correlation whatsoever to a policy of genocide in a totalitarian dictatorship. You make about as much sense as Glenn Beck. He’s a fool as well.
StanSki
October 21st, 2010
3:18 pm
The Muzzies have their call to prayers screaming thru speakers all day from early morning until evening here in the predominently Polish section of Detriot. But G-d forbid if you say anything about it. Diversity doncha know.
A+A
October 21st, 2010
3:19 pm
I have to admit that it’s a little silly to be praying up to some invisible buddy in the sky. Especially on a football field. Religion is like an anchor that progressive society has to drag around. If religion has to be taught it should be taught in churches. Go pray there, it’s fine with everybody. Schools are not the place for either prayer or reciting a ‘pledge of allegiance’. It just gets annoying after a while.
teh lulz
October 21st, 2010
3:24 pm
@ david sims
obvious troll is obvious. do not make us cut the power to your basement.
SM
October 21st, 2010
3:24 pm
It would be pretty delicious if “cooks” ran our world though.
Oddity
October 21st, 2010
3:26 pm
@Pluto – “Many of those choosing not to pursue a personal relationship with Him somehow want to ensure that those in a questioning season of life don’t hear anything about Him under the guise of separation of church from state.”
No – as an atheist I’m more about equality than you’ll ever understand. Realize I grew up a Catholic in a Mormon state. You can’t believe the amount of discrimination I was subject to. From silently being left out to actively being told I was going to hell. What our belief here is that NO ONE should have to be subjected to that, AND that no one should have to be denied whatever it is they want to believe. The law already allows you compensation for your religious beliefs by letting you pray silently, bow your head etc. In this way, when we all go to a school game, you can bow your head and pray, I can talk to my family about the upcoming game, and no one’s beliefs are trod upon.
Maureen Downey
October 21st, 2010
3:27 pm
@teh, Mr. Sims has earned himself one too many “comment removal” requests for both the length and content of his many posts so I have been requested to ban him from the blog. I have to remind folks that these AJC blogs function as a sort of living room for the newspaper. Posters are invited guests but if they kick the dog, scare the children and break the china, they won’t be invited back.
Maureen
brandon
October 21st, 2010
3:45 pm
ohmy- ” I won’t be responsible for bring a soul in this world to contend with the cooks running our world. ”
I hate it also when sous-chefs try and run our world.
chuck
October 21st, 2010
3:45 pm
@SBinF, you said: “We have a Constitution to protect the MINORITY”
In the strictest terms, that is not true. The Constitution protects the majority every bit as much as it protects the minority. Can you tell me which part of the Contitution protects ANYONE from being offended? Can you tell me where in the Constitution it even MENTIONS a relationship between any individual state and any religion? I’m afraid that you can’t.
You see, the only restriction MENTIONED in the Constitution is placed on CONGRESS and that restriction is in regard to the CONGRESS establishing ONE RELIGION as an OFFICIAL UNITED STATES RELIGION. You see, they were kind of sensitive about that since in England you had to belong to A PARTICULAR DENOMINATION (the Anglican Church) to avoid PERSECUTION. So tell me, is there an OFFICIAL RELIGION of the U.S.? NOPE. Did the AUTHORS of the Constitution intend for the establishment clause to apply to: 1) State Governments? 2) School Districts? 3) Individual Public Schools? NOPE. If they had, they would have explicitly stated so. ALSO, they would not have been so SPECIFIC when they EXPRESSLY said that CONGRESS would make no laws.
So did the S.C. err in their interpretation? NOPE. The S.C. erred in their ACTIVISM. They did essentially what ALL politicians do. The rewrote the Constitution to fit their own bias and political slant. IF the federal government wants the Constitution to prohibit it, then there is a method for changing it. They know that the American people will never stand for that so they circumvented the LEGAL PROCESS for changing it and accomplished it through the courts so that it would appear to be legitimate.
David Sim is an...
October 21st, 2010
3:48 pm
Sorry David but all religion is a LIE! It was created for people who aren’t strong enough to get by on thier own.
Now I know you’ll have something to say about that but frankly I could care less!
Mark 2
October 21st, 2010
3:48 pm
@Mark “Personally, I do not care if there is public prayer before a game or not.” Fine. Then stop doing it. There are people who have a right not to hear this.
“As for biblical prayer, Jesus said to not make prayer a public spectacle.” And what could be more of a spectacle in America than a football game?
“Someone asked what are the prayers for. No, not to win the game, but for the safety of those involved.” So, the one who prays hardest gets the least injuries? Or did the ones who inevitably get injured not pray hard enough? How’s that work?
“And lastly…atheists. What can you say about atheists? They get all worked up about something they “say” they believe to be no more real than Cindy Lou Who.”
To this I’ll just let you eat your own words: “Stereotype much?”
Lisa
October 21st, 2010
3:55 pm
@Maureen Downey. Mr. Sims did not kick a dog, scare a child nor break any china. The fact that you kowtowed to the few posters that got all butthurt when they read something they disagree with. (They could have always covered their eyes to save themselves form accidentally seeing something that might make them question their irrational belief in an invisible sky-wizard.) Isn’t censorship grand!
PhiLLy
October 21st, 2010
3:59 pm
“But I do not believe in atheists”
And I do not believe in Zeus nor any of the other “gods” people have believed in throughout the centuries. We’re all atheists to someone’s god, some of us just go one step further.
A+A
October 21st, 2010
4:08 pm
As an atheist, I think I am a rather snappy dresser. And I already have a pony.
The only thing I like about christian religion is that sweet dumb smile the possessed seem to have-it must be lovely to believe deeply that one will live forever if one has been good, rather than dying in a corner like a cockroach. I like christians for the most part, well, that whole god thing does get in the way but they can be nice. But the utter insistence that christianity be the most important religion is smelling up the whole country. I don’t want prayer at a football game-it’s no more than a token paid before the real violence begins. If the game is played with sportsmanship and good will, that should be enough.
Steven
October 21st, 2010
4:11 pm
These Christian zealots will not rest until they can have slaves, women are stoned to death again, rape is decriminalized and children start dying in droves from preventable causes.
PhiLLy
October 21st, 2010
4:13 pm
Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family. -Stephen Colbert
Can't Trust Christians
October 21st, 2010
4:19 pm
With so many so called “Christian leaders” (followers too) stealing money with tv pitches, etc (from not only the delusional, but poor senior citizens who are gullible), inciting murder, torture and the like for hundreds of years, I would trust a Wiccan far more than any Christian. Admittedly I don’t believe as they do, but I trust their integrity.
Hell in a Handbasket
October 21st, 2010
4:23 pm
Please don’t remove David Sims’s comments. I completely disagree with him, I think he has a problem with Jews, and an equal problem accepting the fact of the Holocaust. His comments are, to me, irresponsible and disgusting, although certainly intelligent — perhaps as intelligent and misguided as the Unabomber and his manifesto. However, if you’re going to ban him, ban him for length, not for content. He used no profanity and spoke no obscenity. These boards should be open for broad disagreements, and a media company, which thrives on the First Amendment, should also adhere to it.
Chris
October 21st, 2010
4:37 pm
Maureen — Thanks for banning David Sims’ comments. While I know there are people like him in the world, I hate being reminded every time I read this blog.
Proud Black Man
October 21st, 2010
5:00 pm
Hmmmm… sympathy for the racist.
Kan
October 21st, 2010
5:05 pm
@Maureen Downey. I must agree with Lisa. Although some of his comments were questionable, they were very knowledgeable and appear to be factual. It’s a shame that someone came in here to comment on this and when people were offended, instead of telling them to cover their eyes (ala “put their fingers in their ears”), they were removed and not allowed to come back. Censorship, it’s what causes most people to not care and stop trying because someone in power will just shut them up because they “offended” someone.
You Asked
October 21st, 2010
5:11 pm
Wow. Holocaust denial. What about 6 million deaths in Concentration Camps does he not understand. My Great Uncle personally cleaned up one of those camps with an American medical corps. He would have been sorely tempted to roll up Mr. Simms posts and make him eat them.
But on topic. As a very religious Mormon (minority everywhere but Utah and Idaho) I appreciate most of what my good Southern Baptist and Evangelical neighbors bring to the community. Sometimes they have funny ideas about what I believe but on the whole they are an asset to my community and family.
They do need to understand that others may not want to hear their particular version of the “truth” in public forums. That is OK. The LDS high school age religion classes in Utah are held in separate buildings from the public schools. Prayers offered by Boy Scouts during camp are ecumenical. Some praising Allah and others ending in Jesus name. That is ok too. The boys learn respect and what they have in common all during a private activity.
And for my good Christian neighbors (of all kinds) what would Jesus do? I suspect He would respect the law of the land and share his teachings outside of a school activity. I also suspect he would bow his head politely if someone else was offering a non-Christian prayer.
Anon
October 21st, 2010
5:47 pm
The United States is born out of Religious groups who fled persecution in England. As such the founders of the country wanted it to be equally fair to people who practice all religions including none at all. The only way to be equally fair to all Religions is to prevent any religion from having a say in the government or public education.
http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html
Convinced that religious liberty must, most assuredly, be built into the structural frame of the new [state] government, Jefferson proposed this language [for the new Virginia constitution]: “All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution”: freedom for religion, but also freedom from religion. (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 38. Jefferson proposed his language in 1776.)
A professorship of Theology should have no place in our institution [the University of Virginia]. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper, October 7, 1814. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 492.)
Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever? (James Madison, “A Memorial and Remonstrance,” addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: The Citadel Press, pp. 459-460. According to Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, pp. 39 ff., Madison’s “Remonstrance” was instrumental in blocking the multiple establishment of all denominations of Christianity in Virginia.)
Yeah I would say that the Framers are pretty clear on thier stance of no religion in public institutions.
Nunya
October 21st, 2010
5:49 pm
Even as these schools get nailed in court proceedings, the parents and students should be endlessly haranguing the faculty to at least then give equal time to Muslim, Hebrew, Buddhist, Shinto, and even Native American prayer services over the intercom while they do it.
I guarantee they will be howling within seconds about how their little precious snowflakes are having to listen to prayer in schools. I guarantee that they will be shown up for the bigoted hypocrites they are, much like during their hissy-fit concerning the Ground Zero community center/mosque that isn’t actually AT Ground Zero.
These people are not interested in freedom of religion. They’re interested in freedom to use the force of law to impose THEIR religion upon whomever they like, with no accountability, and no interference. It’s as revolting as imposing Sharia law on a populace. It is in fact, the very same thing.
teh lulz
October 21st, 2010
6:13 pm
@Lisa & Kan
Hate speech is not encompassed by freedom of speech. Antisemitism and holocaust denial is neither intelligent, knowledgeable, nor factual. It’s just hate.
@Maureen Downey
It’s good to see a little sense and reason floating around the web sometimes. Especially in a comments section. Cheers.
Davie
October 21st, 2010
6:17 pm
Here’s my solution. You want prayer in school? Have a christian club, where the christians can meet before school, and have their prayer. The people who want to pray can go, the people who don’t – wont. Offer the same to all the religions. Like a before-school chess club or computer club. Broadcasting it or forcing it on others is wrong, those who want it, can meet together and have it. Prayers don’t need to be played over a public P.A. system to be heard by their deity – unless they’re really hard of hearing…
As for public events like Football games and Graduation ceremonies, you can say a prayer many different ways. You don’t have to add ‘praise jesus’ to the sentence “May all our players stay safe on the playing field” for it to be a heartfelt prayer. Adding the jesus or god is just your own personal self trying to assert yourself over someone else.
Stop being stupid people, stop trying to push buttons, fight people, force people. Solutions can be simple.
Brocklee
October 21st, 2010
6:19 pm
Amazing! haha! David Sims provides logically sound reasoning and is rewarded with a ban because his style of communication is so unrecognizable by others. Shame on those who called for censorship of his unconventional ideas.
confused
October 21st, 2010
6:31 pm
If I want my kids to hear bible teaching or prayer at school, where do we go? If I didn’t have to pay property taxes to help cover the cost of the government schools, maybe I could afford a private school where prayer would be OK. Any ideas? I am being serious. If I want my children to be taught by teachers who believe in christian ideas do I have that option?
IronJoker
October 21st, 2010
6:56 pm
Where is the ban hammer? If church came to my child’s school. I would put someone on a cross….
Maureen Downey
October 21st, 2010
7:09 pm
@Kan and Lisa, Mr. Sims did not post comments. He posted treatises. His word count exceeded mine and I write the blog every day as a full-time job.
And he interjected race into topics where it had no relevance. Nor did his theme vary. It got to the point that I could have written his entries because I read the same stuff over and over.
And today he pushed his commentary to another bizarre extreme when he challenged the reality of the Holocaust. I have one mandate from my employer: Write and moderate a lively blog on education that is respectful, thoughtful and enjoyable to read. Mr. Sims was making that more and more difficult. He is free to launch his own blog and you are free to follow him. Clearly, he has enough time to write a blog. But this is not his blog or his pulpit. His monotone and his racist doctrine were alienating readers. I was more than patient with him, but I can’t have one person commandeer the blog.
Maureen
V for Vendetta
October 21st, 2010
7:15 pm
confused,
Not in a public school.
Maureen,
Though I find David Sims comments misguided and backed up by twisted statistics and spurious sources, I’m not sure if banning him is the proper reaction. There’s a scroll bar on the right side for those who wish to skip his particular brand of eloquently conveyed racism.
Stormport
October 21st, 2010
7:18 pm
David Sims, I was in the Marine Corps with a Michael Sims from NYC, any relation? He was Jewish. Are you one of those ’self-hating’ Jews the zionists like to label when they are being criticized? The zionist ploy when ‘anti-semite’ won’t wash? I suppose I am a ’self-hating’ white person. In my case, this disgust comes entirely from my juvenile programming during which I picked up an image of ‘white people’ as generally enlightened, intelligent, forward thinking, et cetera ad infinitum. You might imagine the internal conflict that has developed as I expand and perceive the world from an historical and quite “empirical” perspective. I study human ‘natural history’, that is, I study humans as another might study earthworms. After years of study and work, I have built a perceptual model composed of physics, chemistry, biochemistry, et al, that allows me to step out of the human perceptual bubble and view us from the outside. We have reached a point in our data accretion regarding the structure of the Universe where humanzees are completely explainable and are completely unremarkable as organisms. I call us “humanzees” which helps to shed some of the stickier false nuances that come with the word ‘human’. The humanzee ‘World’ is a collective delusional (psychotic) perceptual bubble to which we either subscribe or we are exiled, imprisoned, drugged, or killed outright. Humanzee ‘identity’ groups (America, Catholic Church, Judaism, …) are coherent primitive systems which, like primitive organisms composed of cells, show many of the same characteristics, the same mechanisms to maintain group homeostasis and coherency. ‘Immune’ function is amongst these, discouraging ‘differences’ that may lead to destabilization, internal conflict, organismal dysfunction. External to the group, as obligate communal animals with ‘groups’ as distinct competing entities, our ONLY group-external collective behavior (currently or historically) is to try to eat the group next to us. We are very primitive.
I mentioned my own internal conflict between how I was programmed and the reality I have come to see around me within the humanzee perceptual bubble. White people are easily led, very easily led, at least white Americans. Currently I am witnessing large numbers of people, mostly white, being led to oppose their own best interests in favor of corporate slavery and abuse. The American media is owned and completely perverted to the benefit of corporate which is perfectly reasonable since American media is almost entirely corporate. The identity group pulling the strings in these corporations is another issue that I will not address here.
You have apparently read “Revisionist Holocaust”, a very technical and informative investigation of the events portrayed in the myth which, across the board, casts doubt on the Big Lie simply on the basis of physical implausibiliy for the events described. And, as you say, the story has been in the process of revision from Day One at Nuremberg, and it only gets smaller. That people like Spielberg and others have made successful careers of elaborating and pushing the myth shows some of the source of the power of this Lie and of the zionists to freely deluge America with propaganda and to manipulate America through corrupt political ‘contributions’, blackmail, intimidation, and even murder into sacrificing thousands of our young people, a million Iraqis, and the financial health of America to stabilize an area adjacent to Iran so as to be able to build a staging base to facilitate an unprovoked invasion designed to eliminate the major zionist competitor in the area, Iran. There is no difference, I think, between the zionist leadership of Palestine and the Islamic crazies except that the zionists are much less trustworthy and much more dangerous to America than Iran could ever be ( see: http://www.gtr5.com/ ).
But an even better source of information concerning the zionists which is 100% unimpeachable and is out of reach of retribution by the American zionists (Irgun in America-sort of a zionist al Qaeda) is: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com . The people who run this website are a large group of scholarly orthodox Rebbes in Brooklyn who hate zionism with a white heat. They describe the situation through the public utterances of zionists since zionism was born. What they describe is completely consistent with the program outlined in the much maligned Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. If you doubt, study.
What you will find at this website is heavily documented public sources such as Time, NYT, et cetera. For instance, in 1943 when Germany offered a ransom plan of USD50 per head for European Jews, the head of the American Jewish Committee (zionists) said “We don’t need those people.” and refused the offer. Prepare for a thorough re-education if you choose to study the truth. Again, these are historical scholars and no comment on the site goes undocumented, with a public source.
They are terrified. They point out that the zionists are serious about the destiny of The Chosen People who have been chosen by gawd to ‘Rule the World’. The Rebbes are not in opposition to this as it is the word of Yaweh but, they say, the signs, the absolutely required by Yaweh-the-Terrible signs such as the Messiah, have not yet appeared and the zionists are doing this without Yaweh’s approval. It doesn’t take a biblical scholar to know what happens when Old Testament Yaweh gets angry, and the good Rebbes believe that Yaweh will severely punish ALL Jews for this extreme hubris of the zionists. Translated it means that the Rebbes expect the Pogrom of all pogroms to be the only result of this zionist extremism. Interesting reading, I promise.
I applaud your concern and understanding of the real issues here. Alas, we are voices in the wind, in the hurricane of propaganda that flows in America and leads us down the path of national anomie. The deep divisions heard in the American vox populi are artificial and induced from outside to divide and conquer. We are both divided and essentially conquered at this time. Plenty of white people to hang here including the completely corrupt bushcabal and their sociopathic ilk, the ‘conservatives’, who are owned, head, neck, and scrotum, by zionism. “Interesting times” ahead. I pity the young people, Jews and nonJews who will die victims of occult religious fascism in our future.
On the issue of ‘atheism’, it is as much a religion as the other religions from which it derives. If we look at the data only, the consistent structure of the Universe as we now understand it, we will see no ‘limit’ on the size or complexity of potential “organisms” in this Universe. If you study (try Olaf Stapledon, “Starmaker”, Project Gutenberg-Australia), you will be able to approximately and quite plausibly imagine a being who is to us as we are to the earthworm. How much more god would anyone need than that? It is what Homo could become if we are successful at avoiding the extinction traps that are becoming ever more apparent in our understanding of our physical context of which we are an integral and inseparable part.My feeling at this time is that we are not ‘talented’ enough to do so. Our ‘intelligence’ is clearly much lower per capita (here literally) than we like to fool ourselves into believing. I will reach my ‘Time to Die’ hopefully before the fan disseminates horror over our tiny species. If so, I will leave with an unextinguished hope for us that, really, simply demonstrates human irrationality and denial. So far, we are not worthy of survival, not when the thing we spend most of our resources upon is killing our own. And, collaterally, killing our innocent co-inhabitants of this earth. Does a Major Extinction Event deserve preservation?
A+A
October 21st, 2010
7:23 pm
Yes, it’s still me, the snotty atheist:
Hi confused-I know you are being serious and you deserve a serious answer. As I was growing up in the south, in Harrison, Arkansas, we went to church. I went to Sunday school (although that didn’t go so well after I asked whether Jesus had returned to being a carpenter after he rose from the dead) and was educated at home by my grandfather who lived his life through the ten commandments. Never mentioned the bible at home, just taught us by example. And we paid attention to him because we loved him. I think now as I thought now that it is possible to receive a good religious education simply by going to church, having like minded friends around that share your values, by living a life of honesty. I know it is hard to be in your position but you DO have teachers who believe in christian ideas. They are the people in your church.
No really, it’s me.
V for Vendetta
October 21st, 2010
7:24 pm
Maureen,
On a different topic, I looked into this phenomenon that is “Fields of Faith.” I understand that public school campuses can be rented out to different groups, but I wonder if the scope and intention of this ridiculous celebration crosses the line. I know it was promoted around some of the schools in metro Atlanta–twenty-seven in GA total. I think promoting this event, even though it is associated with FCA, crosses a BIG line. As I mentioned earlier, a speaker at one of the events said there was more evidence for Jesus’ existence than there was for the Roman Empire. It scares me that public schools are promoting an event where such lies and fallacies are spread to impressionable students–of every age. What an abhorrent idea.
A+A
October 21st, 2010
7:28 pm
message for stormport and david sims: tl;dr
Vilos Cohaagen
October 21st, 2010
8:00 pm
Too much time and money is wasted over stuff like this. I think it’s all a bunch of superstitious nonsense. But when they insist on praying at some public event, it does no injury to me. If I was of a competing mythology, I suppose I might have a different position. But, that’s their problem. Maybe they should just insist on equal time.