Re-testing: Does it penalize the kids who get it right the first time? Is school about learning well or testing well?
Dean Rohrer, NewsArt
I had an interesting conversation with a teacher I ran into last week at the store: Is the purpose of education to make sure kids learn — in which case testing should be diagnostic — or is it that they learn in a specific way at a specific time?
That question goes to the heart of an AJC news story today on a new retesting policy in Forsyth County where students re-take tests if they get a poor grade fail or perform poorly on the first attempt.
When the reporter doing this story asked me about it, I asked a testing expert who sent me this note:
Re-testing is and has been common practice for a long time. Even back in the 70’s when minimum competency barrier testing started, students were allowed to re-take such things as graduation barrier tests (such as the GHSGT) to try to pass them. There are two major variables in retaking and passing; one of course is additional narrow preparation specifically for the test, the other, of course, is the inaccuracy of the tests (you’ve likely heard about by now the recent research on just how inaccurate “value-added” approaches are using a classroom of tests to evaluate teachers – imagine how inaccurate ONE test is for ONE student).A part of the inaccuracy is the “luck of the draw” of the questions on a test – different forms of a test will have a different selection of questions covering (more or less) the same content; a student may happen to remember one particular factoid that’s on one form but may not have known one on another form. The same issue operates for the SAT – some of the marginal improvement that may happen when a student takes the SAT multiple times is further preparation, but another part of it is simply, again, the “luck of the draw” of the questions on the test.
And now that the story has run, that same expert says:
The practice isn’t new or unique to Forsyth. The public schools in Gwinnett, Cobb and Fulton — and systems across the country — permit retesting. DeKalb, Cherokee and Atlanta schools don’t.
Forsyth County mom Barbara Manley thought the way South Forsyth Middle School allowed kids to retake tests was wrong.
“I just overheard my daughter talking to her friend about her friend getting a 70 on a test and retaking it and getting an A,” Manley said. “My daughter, who is a straight-A student, made an 83 on the test, but because she made higher than an 80, she didn’t get to retake it. She was stuck with an B, and her friend got an A. That’s not right.”
When Manley set out to change the grading system at her daughter’s school, she stumbled onto a philosophical shift in education in which, increasingly, grades are less important than students “mastering” subjects.
But are those policies unfair to students who are hard workers and fast learners and nail the test the first time? And do they undermine student discipline and erode the accuracy of grades as a measurement of a student’s preparedness for college and eligibility for the HOPE scholarship?
Manley took her case to the principal, telling her the grading scheme penalized students who made B’s on the test. “She told me: Students don’t care about grades.’ I told her: ‘You obviously don’t know my daughter.’” When the principal told Manley the grading scheme wouldn’t change, Manley went to school board member Mike Dudgeon, who told her “we’re in the process of taking care of that.”
A month later the policy was changed. Now, if a student at South Forsyth Middle School makes below an 80 and retakes a test, the student can be credited with a score no higher than an 80 even if the student makes a 100.
Lissa Pijanowski, the associate superintendent in Forsyth who oversees the program, said Manley was the only parent to complain to the school board about it. But she acknowledged the school system is fine-tuning the grading scheme — which varies from school to school in the Forsyth system — as a work in progress for the last four years.
“As we roll out new practices across schools it takes time to define a consistent policy after sufficient analysis of the teaching and learning practices,” said Pijanowski of the program Forsyth modeled after the “reteaching/reassessment” program of Montgomery County Public Schools in Maryland.
Dudgeon, the school board member, said he’s always had “mixed feelings” about students being allow to retake tests, and has long been in favor of a system-wide grading policy that would be overseen by the school board, but he lost that vote in 2007.
Letting students take a test again teaches them a lesson that doesn’t always apply in “life and the real world where you don’t always get a second chance,” he said.
Parent Mark Rottman, whose daughter is a Forsyth fourth-grader, frets that letting a student take a test again conditions them to bad study habits.
“It also raises questions about teaching methods,” he said. “Are teachers being effective if students don’t get it the first time?”
Fulton County schools offer retesting as one of many “grade improvment opportunities” for students that may also include “a project, an essay, an oral presentation to demonstrate they are continuing to learn the class material,” said Allison Toller, spokeswoman for the school system.
Just as in Forsyth, teachers determine whether a student can retake a test after extra work or whether there’s a better way to improve the student’s grade and comprehension of the material. “The teacher in the classroom has the expertise to determine [if retaking a test] best guides a child toward mastering the material … based on a variety of factors, not the least of which is the learning style of the child,” said Toller.
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62 comments Add your comment
Middle Grades Math Teacher
October 19th, 2010
11:14 am
Lunchtime…. As a math teacher, I believe that it is important that students learn the skills. If they don’t get it on the test, they still need to master those skills. What I offer — for ALL students — is for them to correct the problems they did incorrectly. They can earn half the points for each problem reworked correctly. All students benefit. If a question is worth six points and a student got a 94, they can raise their grade to a 97. If a student missed 6 problems and got a 64, they can raise their grade to an 82.
Dunwoody Mom
October 19th, 2010
11:16 am
Shouldn’t we be more concerned that the students master the course content? Quite frankly, I don’t are how long or how many retakes are needed, the student needs to understand the material.
Ernest
October 19th, 2010
11:21 am
Count me among those that thinks this can teach bad habits for our students. I’m currently having conversations with my children’s teachers about a summer project they submitted that has not been included in their grades. It seems that many students did not turn them in for a variety of reasons. Of course my children feel duped because of the amount of time they spent on it. I’m also concerned of the effort they will put into similar project requests in the future based on what has happened thus far.
high school teacher
October 19th, 2010
11:21 am
I allow anyone who is unsatisfied with his or her grade to re-take the test. That way I can both meet the criteria of RTI and protect the high-achieving kids as well.
Seymore Skinner
October 19th, 2010
11:24 am
Retest? Fine, but there’s NO way it should count full credit!
Warrior Woman
October 19th, 2010
11:26 am
In general, I like the opportunity of retesting or other methods to ensure mastery. However, the Forsyth policy, which allowed test re-takers to outperform those that weren’t permitted to retest, was badly flawed and penalized better students. The options suggested by Middle Grades Math Teacher and high school teacher are much better, and I know both of those options are in use in Cobb County schools.
Musicteacher
October 19th, 2010
11:28 am
Why not allow students to retake a test, with reasonable parameters established in advance? Licensed professionals (including teachers) are allowed to retake licensing exams. I certainly want my pilot, physician, or attorney to have demonstrated mastery in their field. Don’t we want students to demonstrate mastery, too?
Jeff
October 19th, 2010
11:40 am
I was always one of the “once and done” teachers. That said, for the higher level tests (unit tests, midterms, finals, etc), I used problems from the earlier quizzes tests (and these earlier quizzes/tests were often built directly from the homework).
In other words, by the time a kid took my final, it was incredibly possible that he had seen the same problem – possibly with different numbers, possibly not – upwards of half a dozen or more times. There was NO REASON to do bad in my class – yet I still had students fail. Some things, a teacher simply cannot control.
MannyT
October 19th, 2010
11:47 am
Here’s where the goals rise up in the world of unintended consequences.
If one HS student is trying to get into a highly competitive college, he/she probably wants the best grade possible. It might be worth their time to retake for a better grade.
In the value of learning, how long does the teacher allow someone to work on the same thing instead of moving forward? Does retake time slow the progress needed to get through all of the course material?
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October 19th, 2010
11:50 am
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Lori
October 19th, 2010
12:02 pm
I like Middle Grades Math Teacher’s idea. Let ANYONE who wants to correct their mistakes do it. I also agree that there should be no way to achieve full credit for the retake. It’s unfair to the other students, because retaking it means they’ve seen the same problems before and have had an opportunity to discuss those problems (and the answers) with other students. If you want to give full credit for a retest, then it should be completely different problems that cover the same material. That eliminates the possibility the students just memorized the correct answers to retake the test.
just a point
October 19th, 2010
12:06 pm
I’m ambivalent about retaking of tests. For starters, I know several teachers who had to retake their GACE exams a few times to get certified. I’m not entirely sure that I want a teacher who had to take the test (especially content tests) more than once. I want a teacher who has mastery of their content and can demonstrate it at the appropriate time. I can’t speak for all parents, but I’d be willing to bet parents want the teacher who took the GACE or Praxis once and did well as opposed to someone who had to take the test two or three times to pass it.
On the teacher side, there has to be a time to move forward to new topics. I think giving unlimited retakes of a test encourages lax study skills. I think it discourages students from getting the help they need during the unit – when a teacher can help them pinpoint what area the student is struggling in and give them help at that time, not two weeks later after the test has been graded and given back. With shortened calendars, a student should have a specified amount of time to demonstrate mastery.
For what it’s worth, how many college professors give retakes on midterms or tests? I can’t remember any of mine giving me the opportunity. Sounds like we’re setting up kids for failure in the college system.
Really amazed
October 19th, 2010
12:11 pm
So this does prove that going to a public high school in GA improves your chances of making straight A’s. You get do overs. The children going to challenging private schools don’t get do overs. Their GPA will look less to colleges. Even though Jack took all AP classes got that b because no do overs. Susie from public got to retake until she was satisfied with her grade. Now I understand why my son’s friends from public are all 4.0 students. I guess this will hurt him in the college process. Well I can stop wasting my money and move my children back to public for a better grade inflated GPA. The heck with truly learning.
Dr NO
October 19th, 2010
12:27 pm
Its been my experience that if the child fails the he is immedately expelled for the remainder of the year. At the beginning of the following school year he may begin the same classes over and do them until the student GETS IT RIGHT!
V for Vendetta
October 19th, 2010
12:40 pm
Hrm.
I suppose I don’t have a problem with the concept of retesting as long as it is offered to all students and full credit is not given; however, I also completely agree with what many have said about the perceived impact on student motivation.
Either way, we’re drawing a difficult and wiggly line in the sand here. Where does it all end? Are we limited only to scantron style tests, or will we allow students to make up projects and essays as well? There seems to be a big difference there–both from the style of assessment and the time it takes to grade them. I know multiple teachers at my school who allow students to redo projects and essays. I think that’s nuts. If I don’t agree with that, I surely can’t agree with retesting, right?
Like I said, sticky subject.
T. S. Cobb
October 19th, 2010
12:45 pm
Aftter more than twenty years working in public schools, I still say I wouldn’t send my dog to one.
Dr NO
October 19th, 2010
12:56 pm
In my classrooms you either get it right the first time or face serious consequences. We are not all good. Some students bad and some are rotten to the core. Students must be punished and punished severly. Expell them I say.
teacher&mom
October 19th, 2010
1:39 pm
Here’s how I address re-testing in my classroom. Everyone is allowed to re-take a DIFFERENT version of the test over the same material. I don’t care if you made a 95 and want to try for a 100. However, before a student is eligible to re-take a test, they have to attend at least one “re-teaching” session either before/after school or during lunch. That gives me chance to address gaps in the students’ understanding of the standards. Some students may even be given a packet to complete in addition to the re-teaching session before I allow them to re-test.
What I’ve found is that as we go through the school year, fewer and fewer students require the re-teaching/testing sessions. Their confidence grows, they learn better ways to study, and their grades improve. It offers hope to those who consistently struggle.
Bonzo
October 19th, 2010
1:43 pm
Okay how do you ever get through a unit and move on if you are going to re-test. Are you only going to re-test once ’cause that’s not fair? It’s like we all live at Lake Whobegone (sp?) or something. Everyone is good looking and above average in Forsyth.
What's Best for Kids?
October 19th, 2010
1:55 pm
Bonzo, you do what teacher&mom suggests. The kids get to retake the test, but it is on their time. They soon realize that they can pass it and even do well on it the first time if they pay attention, take notes, complete handouts and study the first time.
Many of the same standards are addressed in every unit; those are usually the ones that are the most difficult. Scaffolding happens every day. But for students who care, and they are out there, they have the opportunity to retake the test on their own time.
Former teacher
October 19th, 2010
2:03 pm
There definitely are pros and cons to retesting. You DO want the kids to learn the material, but you don’t want kids to get in the habit of not studying for the first round of tests and waiting to see what the test is like and then studying for the retest only. Further, it absolutely takes more time and resources from the teacher to reteach and re-give those retakes. Time and resources that teachers are already short of. Also, if a student is still studying the past material when the new material is being presented, they are at a disadvantage. I think Forsyth county’s policy is not a bad one. Allow a student to retake a test if they have done truly bad on it, but they aren’t allowed to earn an A on the 2nd time around. Another good policy is to limit the number of retakes or even to allow students in a class to “drop” one test grade per grading period. This gives all students the benefit of having a bad day or a bit of a struggle on one unit, but does not encourage the policy of restesting throughout the year on each and every test.
Hey Teacher
October 19th, 2010
2:13 pm
While I allow multiple revisions with a writing assignment, a student must have completed ALL homework and formative assessment activities prior to initiating a retake on a test. This policy ensures that only those students who are truly struggling qualifies for a retake and excludes the lazy ones. In my system, we are encouraged to allow students to retake tests, but there is no blanket policy on retakes. There are some classes where retakes might make more sense than others — it is unfortunate that school systems choose to create blanket policies that apply for all grade levels. Differentiation only applies to students, apparently.
another comment
October 19th, 2010
2:36 pm
My daughter was in an Honor’s Biology Class last year, where the teacher let them earn extra credit points. Then she would let them apply the bonus points to test or quizzes. My daughter got A’s on these tests so she didn’t bother to apply the bonus points, even though she observed some kids added the bonus points and having a score of 105 or 110 on a test that they may have gotten a 60 on, a failing score. My daughter may have gotten a real A a 96 on this. At one point I told my daughter, she was being foolish for never applying any of her points. So one day the teacher told them they could go through and add bonus points so she brought the couple of B’s on assignments just up to A’s. Then about 3/4 of the way through the class the teacher stopped the whole bonus point thing, sure enough my daughter gets a 77 on something. What my daughter didn’t realize is because she didn’t use up these bonus points by having 110’s on her A’s she almost cost herself her A, she ended up just getting an A with a 91 or 92. While a whole bunch of kids that should have just gotten C’s or D’s played the bonus point game and got A’s by using all these bonus points and piling them on thier grades.
No it is not fair to the naive smart kid.
Wondering
October 19th, 2010
2:51 pm
We did this in college but the re-tests were during the teacher’s office hours, meaning we ate up our spare time and not theirs. The two grades were averaged. Get a 50 followed by a 100, and the final was a 75. You rarely saw someone with a 90 taking a chance on blowing the re-test.
Often the first test had a large percentage taking the re-test. By the mid-term it was only two or three. It gave us a chance to learn the teacher’s testing style (let’s face it, most of the tests were not tested for validity on the subject) and taught us how to study for that teacher.
The real point of school is for students to learn. That includes learning how to satisfy the teacher on their tests, and to learn the subject matter. Tests are to measure learning, not the other way around.
high school teacher
October 19th, 2010
3:11 pm
In the reality of my particular school and district, I have students who can’t stay after school because their parents can’t afford the gas money to pick them up. In the world of “whatever it takes,” you learn how to manage class time so that you can have a re-test day if necessary. That’s where we are in education in my little corner of the world.
Tony
October 19th, 2010
3:40 pm
When I was in the classroom, I allowed ONE retest. Students were eligible for retests if they came to tutoring after school. The test was always different – usually harder. If learning the content is the goal, then I have no qualms whatsoever with retakes on exams. Restrictive policies or attitudes about retests are used more to sort and select students based on other factors besides learning.
Lw
October 19th, 2010
3:48 pm
In my high school class, I offer retakes to everyone. They get a different version of the test, and have to come in before or after school to take it, within one week of getting the original test back. I then average the two test grades together. This way, they have to learn the content, but don’t get to do better than people who got it the first time around.
lionel
October 19th, 2010
4:24 pm
I think we need to separate the issue of assessment of learning from evaluation of learning. I think it is perfectly fine to give students opportunity to retake tests if they are assessment tools to see whether or not students have learned what is being taught. On the other hand, a test is given for the purpose of evaluation, then everyone should participate in the measuring procedure in the same way. Sometimes we have to use a learning assessment as a part of an evaluation process. That’s when re-taking becomes an issue since students are being evaluated under different procedures.
At minimum, Forsyth should offer re-take opportunities to all students, to make sure that all evaluation is done under the same conditions. Everyone has an option of retaking SAT as many times as they want, and some choose to take advantage of it while others don’t. But, that’s students’ choice.
I think teachers should require students to correct their mistakes, but that shouldn’t be done for grades. Students should do so because they will be taking a comprehensive final exam and correcting their misunderstanding is to their advantage.
Sal
October 19th, 2010
4:47 pm
Folks, this is the way ONE middle school (poorly) handled re-takes. My daughter goes to Riverwatch MS (also in Forsyth) and students are only offered retakes on teacher discretion (they always do their homework, show good effort, etc.) and then it is to get a max grade of an 80. The student must ask for the re-take and then come in on the deisgnated morning before school officially starts to take it. Believe me, not many middle schoolers are willing to study more, get up early, and give up their free time to re-take a test unless they REALLY need to. In my daughter’s case…she has only been offered a re-take once: because she did uncharacteristically bad on a math quiz…and the teacher recognized that she needed a little more work to understand the concept before moving on so that she could successfully build her understanding of the higher level math. This teacher, also, offers before school tutoring for those who need it…just another example of a great teacher going above and beyond to prepare our kids for the future.
oldtimer
October 19th, 2010
5:28 pm
In my school in Clayton County. We were required to give multiple re-dos…..I, to only gave half credit back and allowed any who wanted to improve their grade redo it. And redo it and redo it ad nauseum. it was always the same few kids and they ended up with barely passing grades. Killed the bell curve. LOL….
ScienceTeacher671
October 19th, 2010
7:22 pm
I disagree with “parent Mark Rottman” who wonders if teachers are “effective if kids don’t get it the first time.”
Students don’t all learn at the same speed. The major problem with our system, IMO, is that we expect them to do so. I agree that all students should master the material. Some will do so quickly, and should be allowed to move on; some do so more slowly, and should be allowed the time they require.
How to do this without creating an administrative nightmare is the question.
What if
October 19th, 2010
7:27 pm
Well, most of you get it, kinda. You teachers, if not the others, CERTAINLY should know that any ONE test is pretty much throwing darts blindfolded. Someone mentioned giving a different version of the test (in our test-speak, an “alternate form”); perfectly reasonable, if a WHOLE lot of extra work for you. Many teachers I know don’t do ‘retakes,’ but most of them are English teachers – a ‘test’ is an essay. These people already work 70+ hour weeks. But there are LOTS of ‘tests.’ Most folks – including, apparently, Obama, Duncan and most of our legislators, but THANKFULLY not our three state supt candidates, mistake student tests to be akin to the accuracy of the atomic clock buried under the Rockies. They’re actually MUCH worse than a century-old spring scale that’s been out in the weather all that time. Including the state tests. Even the best tests in the world (like the SAT and ACT) are ridiculously inaccurate. Allowing a ‘retest’ actually addresses the problem a bit; it allows (maybe) a bad measurement to be replaced by a better one. BUT, indeed, the policy Jeffry wrote about allowing only the failers to retake was very, very poor policy.
Linda
October 19th, 2010
7:36 pm
Wow, high school is easy today. 30 years ago, there was absolutely no concept of a retest. Nor when I went to college. Unbelievable!
Public Teacher
October 19th, 2010
7:52 pm
Re-test or whatever you call it is bunk when discussing assessments in a class. One lesson all students must learn is to prepare properly THE FIRST TIME. If they think they can do it again, then what is the motivation for them to do it right the first time? What kind of employee will these kids make if they think they can continuosly re-do their work without penalty?
Also, every time a teacher allows a re-test, that only includes more effort BY THE TEACHER. Most of the students that fail the first time really won’t spend addition effort or time for the second or third try. All they do is provide a different answer than they did the first go-round with hopes to pass. The teacher should be spending their time on better lessons for the all students rather then pandering to the kids that refuse to study for the first try!
One lesson that these kids need to learn…. failure IS AN OPTION. If they opt to not do their work and not study, then they SHOULD FAIL!
Now, on these standardized tests such as the GHSGT, I have no problems with re-tests. I feel the reasons are obvious.
rosie
October 19th, 2010
8:19 pm
How many resources are we wasting with all of this retesting? First of all, teachers don’t have enough time in a school day to plan and grade. Consider the time a teacher puts into developing a test. What about the paper used to make copies? When I was in college I don’t remember getting to retest unless I failed the course and paid to take it over. We are NOT all created equal. Some of us have strengths in math while others are strong in social studies. Grades allow us to determine areas of strength and weakness. As a student a grade allowed me to determine if I needed to work harder. If I made a bad grade I knew I needed to work harder. What is the motivation to study and get it right the first time if there are endless opportunities to retest? If I don’t get the grade I want on the SAT the first time I can pay to take it over. What is the payment for taking it over in a regular classroom? What is the benefit to students studying the first time?
high school teacher
October 19th, 2010
8:21 pm
” We are NOT all created equal. Some of us have strengths in math while others are strong in social studies. Grades allow us to determine areas of strength and weakness.”
Hey rosie, would you mind sending that message to Arne Duncan and President Obama? They disagree…
Teach?Burdened w/pre/post tests,paperwork & deadlines.Half of Dkalb teachers don't care, other half are stuck w/ the spineless,venting/whining,taking punishment..bending over, "please sir may I have another" quote Ole Guy
October 19th, 2010
8:52 pm
Students should not be allowed to retake failed tests. However, all should be offered to do similar test problems on the missed problems. There is so much confusion and unfairness in the grading, to allow students to retake the same test. It is also an extra burden on the teacher to prepare these extra assignments for all the tests.
Jodie
October 19th, 2010
9:10 pm
The topic of retesting and how best to assess a student’s mastery of a standard or how well the teacher has taught the standard can be debated all day. Of greater concern to me is the lack of professionalism Jeffry Scott demonstrated in writing this article. If the AJC serves to be a part of our checks and balances system by providing members of the community with accurate information, it has failed in this case.
I worked for the principal the story is referring to for several years, and I know there is no way she said that students don’t care about grades. I know she did not say this because I know she does not believe this. Did Jeffry Scott attempt to verify this information with the principal? I know he did not because the accurate account of what really happened would not have made for a news-worthy story.
South Forsyth Middle School happens to be ranked #5 out of 462 middle schools in the state of Georgia. Ranked by test scores, not by grades. They are obviously doing something right and Mrs. Manley should appreciate the level of high quality education her daughter is receiving in the Forsyth County School System, which ranks #3 out of all the districts in Georgia.
I will, from here on out, question the validity of articles published in this newspaper (should I take the time to read it anymore.)
Panthergirl
October 19th, 2010
9:29 pm
I have 2 children at Riverwatch MS. It has been my experience that all students are offered re-takes on any summative test in which they scored below an 80. The students don’t have to ask for the re-takes. Teachers announce the day and time for the re-takes. Re-takes are offered to all students regardless of effort. It was my understanding, that the students had to complete extra work and come in early in order to take the retakes. However, my neighbor recently informed me that her 7th grader at Riverwatch scored in the 60s on a math test. Her son is a slacker and didn’t bother to inform his mother about the re-take. The teacher just gave him the re-take during class time. My kids subsequently informed me that their teachers often give the re-takes in class. I was never opposed to re-takes when I thought that the kids actually had to put forth extra effort. Its discouraging to discover that, at least at Riverwatch, its not the case.
Maureen Downey
October 19th, 2010
9:48 pm
@Jodie, I don’t think the ranking of the school means that parents can’t challenge policy with which they disagree.
As for the quote, the reporter was quoting the parent who was explaining why she wasn’t satisfied with what she was told at the school level and took it to the school board. That is what the parent perceived she was being told when her request to change the retesting policy wasn’t met. It’s important for the story to report that as it was the parent’s appeal to a board member that sparked the policy change.
I understand that you may not like the parent’s decisions or her actions, but she had every right as a parent to raise objections.
Maureen
lionel
October 20th, 2010
6:50 am
@rosie,
I sure hope you consider students’ learning worth the cost of paper.
I agree with lionel that there is nothing wrong with re-testing if the focus is on assessing what students learned. Not everything you do to assess students must be used for evaluation. For that matter, you don’t necessarily need tests to assess what students learned.
I actually think all tests in every class should be comprehensive, and the final exam is the only test that will be used for evaluation – you can make all students take final exam twice, too.
East Cobb Parent
October 20th, 2010
7:04 am
to Musicteacher, attorneys and medical Dr.s take their exam to show a minimal mastery of competence. While it is true they are allowed to retake the exam, people do “know” and it is more difficult to obtain a job in that field with retakes on the record.
I’m with the group that doesn’t believe in re-takes since it goes into a grade calculation. My children are no longer in public and they do not get re-takes. As parents, we review missed material and will go over it to make sure our kids understand the concept. IMHO, retakes negates the purpose of grades. If you want to show mastery of subject material, and that is it, then allow re-takes but give no grades. The class should receive a simple pass/fail. Set the pass @ 80%.
Colleges look at grades and SAT to determine entry. The more districts “play” with grades, then the more emphasis put on a single test.
I have not heard of college professors allowing retakes, although one poster mentioned it, I find that the retake policy does not prepare the kids for college. Why should they work hard, they can retake? At the minimum, districts should re-think this policy for HS. How many retakes do you get on your job?
As for Cobb County, each school does the re-take policy a little differently. Pope HS spoon feeds the kids by giving a pre-test for each test. If you need a re-take after that then something is wrong.
Musicteacher
October 20th, 2010
7:57 am
@East Cobb Parent: I’m sorry you took my comments out of context. I also stated that a retake could be allowed with reasonable parameters established in advance, and that the point is (or should be) mastery of the subject. If said parameters are strict and clear, very few retakes will be necessary (or allowed).
Cobb County Parent
October 20th, 2010
8:22 am
Mulligans are not common in colleges and universities. By allowing retakes in HS, we are not preparing these kids for colleges. Several college professors I know swap stories about kids pleading to redo projects and tests. They try to see who has the most original excuse, etc. However, none of these professors allow do-overs. I’m sure I’ll hear some more entertaining stories at this years costume party.
Dr NO
October 20th, 2010
8:26 am
“Hey rosie, would you mind sending that message to Arne Duncan and President Obama? They disagree…”
I would love to tell The Twin Idiots, Duncan and Obama the above. They disagree because of their socialists backgrounds.
Sorry to all you politically correct molly-coddlers, but Rosie at 8:19 PM is correct. We are not all created equal, we are not all equal and we will not die equally, no matter how much this “everybody is wonderful” society states such non-sense.
Grow up kiddys.
East Cobb Parent
October 20th, 2010
8:36 am
@Musicteacher, so would you be agreeable to a grade that denotes a retake, for instance BR – meaning a student made a B but had retakes in that calculation? I still believe the comparison to lawyers, dr’s etc is not accurate, the exams are to show a minimal competency in the field but enough to begin a practice. Again, people know, in most cases, the number of attempts and opportunities for the first time taker are different than those of the individual needing three attempts to pass. I did not see in the article where the grade reflects the number of retakes. My understanding in the defense of retakes (testing of students) is to gain mastery of a subject/topic. If still applying a grade to the course, then there should be something that denotes a retake showing it took longer to master the topic. As I stated earlier, I really do not agree with retakes in HS or college as I feel it does not properly prepare one for life or work. As long as ES and MS have honor rolls and use grades to decide who stays in gifted or advance content classes, then I have an issue with retakes at those levels. Gifted and advance content are usually for those individuals that grasp concepts quicker, need a faster pace etc. IF ES and MS remove grades, as we are currently used to, go to pass/fail (mastery/working) and place children by ability then allow retakes.
parent
October 20th, 2010
9:25 am
What does it mean to “prepare for college (or life)”? Isn’t it more about making sure students understand the materials that will become the foundations than about taking tests? Why do we allow people to take driving tests, then? Why bother getting a second opinion after you are examined? EVERY tests (measurements) have errors – the difference between true knowledge level and what the tests show. That’s the reason scientists will measure same objects multiple times.
Really amazed
October 20th, 2010
10:37 am
@ East cobb parent, I would love for you to comment on my comment. I totally agree with you on this. I am just so frustarated at the fact that these student at some of these public high schools with re-takes will now somehow look better than our private school students that busted there behinds and didn’t get a redo. Receiving that B instead of Susie’s A because of redo’s. I here this all the time. I do know my children are truly learning for there Stanford/itbs scores and psat score show it but my son now has 2 B’s because no redo’s in honors pre-calc in 10th grade and ap world history in 10th grade. As you can see by these classes he was recommended for, he isn’t a dummy. But Susie up the street at public with her perfect grade inflated 4.0. will make it probably into my sons chose college first because of this.
SDK
October 20th, 2010
11:08 am
@ Really amazed,
Maybe those students are indeed “better” than your private school students. If what we are comparing is what students understand, a student who gets 90 on a test is better than a student who gets 85. [Well, assuming the tests are really reliable and valid, which aren't always the case with teacher-made tests. Also assuming that re-takes aren't exactly the same tests.]
Public School Parent
October 20th, 2010
1:06 pm
@ Really Amazed,
Take heart. One of my friends does admissions for a local university (won’t divulge which one). She stated to me that they are very aware of the games being played and that her university admissions department now devalues the grades received at certain schools/regions. They tend to rely more on the prospective student’s application and SAT / ACT scores… especially since they know the schools and state can’t mess with those results.