Two new studies: We need to send more kids to college. They’ll fare better and so will the state of Georgia

Two new studies emphasize the need for more college graduates to powe Georgia's economy.

Two new studies emphasize the need for more college graduates to power Georgia's economy.

When I began writing this education blog a year ago, I expected to run into disagreements on vouchers, charter schools and merit pay. But I assumed that everyone would concur we need to send more students to college in Georgia.

Instead, I have run into a sizable contingent arguing that we send too many kids to college already. There has been a steady drum beat for more vocational options because “not all students are meant for higher education.”

Yet, college graduates will earn, on average, over $1 million dollars more over the course of their working lives than peers with just a high school education.

At a hearing on his Bridge bill, which would have created a separate track for kids who are not college material and give them skills to land decent jobs,  state Rep. Fran Millar once reflected that while Georgia parents will agree that some kids shouldn’t go to college, they never mean their own children. Their children will go to college.

Millar offered up that comment to explain the lack of traction on his bill, but I think it spoke to something else: The basic understanding among parents, whether they attended college or not, that the future belongs to the well educated.

Consider current unemployment figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics: For those with less than a high school diploma, the unemployment rate was 13.8 percent. Among those with a high school diploma but no college, the rate was 10.1 percent. For those with some college but no degree, the rate was 8.3 percent. For those with an undergraduate degree or beyond, the rate was 4.5 percent.

In a new report released last week, the Lumina Foundation said 37.9 percent of Americans between the ages of 25 and 64 held a two- or four-year college degree in 2008.

“If the current rate of increase remains, less than 47 percent of Americans will hold a two- or four-year degree by 2025  — a rate that economic experts say is far below the level that can keep the nation competitive in the global, knowledge-based economy,” the foundation warned in its report, “A Stronger Nation Through Higher Education.”

Among its Georgia-specific data:

–Approximately 36 percent of adults in Georgia have at least a 2-year degree. This is below the national average of 37.9 percent.

Murray County has the smallest percent of adults with a 2- or 4-year degree (9.6%), and Fayette County has the largest (54.2%)

–To meet the goal of 60 percent higher education attainment by 2025, Georgia needs to add approximately 1,346,524 additional college degrees in the next 15 years.

Citing the findings of the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce, the Lumina report noted, “According to the center’s analysis of occupation data and workforce trends, 58 percent of Georgia’s jobs will require postsecondary education by 2018. Between now and 2018, Georgia will need to fill about 1.4 million vacancies resulting from job creation, worker retirements and other factors. Of these job vacancies, 820,000 will require postsecondary credentials, while only 595,000 are expected to be filled by high school graduates or dropouts.”

Now, a report released today by the Southern Regional Education Board echoes the conclusions of the Lumina Foundation.  In its report, SREB maintains that to meet the target of having 60 percent of the adult population hold a postsecondary certificate or degree by 2025,  its 16 member states will need to increase significantly the numbers of associate’s and bachelor’s degrees they award each year.

“We need much-improved career and technical education courses so that more kids can attend some type of college—as you may know, many CT programs now prepare kids for college, or at least specialized technical training. I visited a CT school, formerly known as the ‘vocational school’ in my native Anderson county, south Carolina, and found them making biofuels, studying nanotechnology, doing high-quality broadcast journalism and advertising projects, and more,” said Alan Richard, director of communications for SREB.

“SREB senior vice president Gene Bottoms, the guru of raising the quality of CT programs,  advised Millar on his bill, which aims to provide more high-quality CT programs like the ones I discussed rather than a low-level vocational track that leads to very low-paying jobs,” said Richard. “All of this presumably would move us in the same direction. We need many more people to enter and finish four-year degree programs, but the same is true for two-year and technical certificate programs, which are often much more advanced these days than most people realize. Just imagine the math and technology required to become a certified HVAC repair person these days.”

98 comments Add your comment

Jennifer

September 28th, 2010
1:58 am

Here, here, I agree 100%. “Never my own kids”, always the vague “not every kid is meant for college”. Everyone should be prepared for college so they are making the choice, not the school system selection process.

Bruce Kendall

September 28th, 2010
5:52 am

Every child is entitled to a choice, when reaching the cusp of adulthood. Adults making those choices for them are not always looking out for there best interest.

The Truth

September 28th, 2010
6:00 am

Once again, Liberals are destroying our country. The same thing has already happened across Europe, where the white native population struggles to support the demands of the immigrant population. The Leftest in charge do not care about how many white girls the muslims gang rape, or how many AIDS infested Africans they invite over that dont discover they have AIDS until they have infected 10 or so niave white women with the deadly disease that will ruin their lives.

http://www.eutimes.net/2010/02/another-man-knowingly-infects-40-white-girls-with-aids/

No…. the Liberals want to stay in power, so they import millions of immigrants into Europe to stay in control. In fact now, even Nigerians, LIVING in Nigeria.. can vote in British elections!
Who cares what diseases and crime they bring, any mention of that is “hate speech” and can result in jail time in Europe. This, is the future of the US.
Will anyone be surprised when China takes over?

God Bless the Teacher!

September 28th, 2010
6:14 am

We definitely need to keep building up the perception that an individual isn’t as good as the next unless s/he has a college degree. Goodness knows, I don’t want to hire a plumber who got her/his training at a technical school. Vocational options in high school give tech school bound students an opportunity to be sure they’re entering a profession they like. In some cases, with articulated courses, students can actually earn tech school credit while in high school (like dual enrollment for the college students). Without a skilled labor force (i.e., without a college degree), manufacturing jobs that require such employees will continue to be outsourced. Is it really necessary that your taxi driver have a post-secondary degree. Oh, wait a minute, most of them aren’t from here anyway.

Ernest

September 28th, 2010
6:15 am

Maureen, when I hear “more kids to college”, I think 4 year school. Your article mentions 2 year schools which could be a trade school. We could compromise and say students need at least 2 years of education after high school to improve their employment chances in the job market.

I still agree that some students are not ready for college immediately after high school, more due to a lack of maturity and focus. Given them the foundation for college at a later time while also providing job skills that would make them more employable during the 9-12 years seems to work also. While couldn’t someone start out as an auto mechanic after high school, realize they’d like to run their own shop, then go back to school to take business classes?

On a related topic, there have been interesting discussions on NBC’s Education Nation week. Yesterday NY Mayor Bloomberg announced a partnership with IBM in which students that successfully complete a 9-14 program will be guaranteed a job with IBM after completion. Read about it at:

http://dnainfo.com/20100927/manhattan/city-pairs-up-with-gates-foundation-cuny-ibm-for-wideranging-education-reforms

Given that Perimeter College is in DeKalb, we have the infrastructure in place to to the same. Wonder if IBM would consider offering a similar program here?

drew (former teacher)

September 28th, 2010
6:24 am

“So, tell me again why we need more vo-tech classes and fewer college bound students?”

First off, yes, higher education is a good thing for individuals, and the state. However, despite whatever studies you toss out there, the fact remains that all students are NOT college material, yet our public school system wants to treat them as if they are. And without a vo-tech option, these are the ones dropping out.

It’s nice and rosy to promote the idea that “all students can go to college”…and then there’s the reality, but let’s not let that get in the way.

And what is the mission of the Lumina Foundation? From their website: “Lumina’s goal is to increase the percentage of Americans who hold high-quality degrees, credentials and certificates to 60 percent by 2025.” OK…that’s a worthy cause. And maybe that’s why the title of their study is, “A Stronger Nation Through Higher Education”. Anybody surprised that the outcome of the study just so happens to support the foundation’s goal? What did you think the study would show?

Yeah, I know…I’m a cynic.

ScienceTeacher671

September 28th, 2010
6:30 am

Here’s the thing: unless they “exceed expectations” on their 8th grade CRCT, they aren’t really working at grade level when they get to high school…and if they fail the CRCT and are socially promoted anyway, as so many are, they are still on the elementary school level when they get to high school, and it’s going to be very difficult to get them ready for college, if indeed it can be done, given their skill levels and possible/probable motivational levels.

Now I’m not saying it isn’t a worthy goal, but what I am saying is that if we want it to be our goal, we have to start at the very beginning, make all our assessments reflect that goal, and make sure students are actually working at grade level when they get to high school (instead of dumbing down tests statewide to make the bureaucrats look better.)

David Sims

September 28th, 2010
6:31 am

“I have run into a sizable contingent arguing that we send too many kids to college already. There has been a steady drum beat for more vocational options because ‘not all students are meant for higher education.’”

They’re right. Not all high school students are meant for higher education.

In the first place, consider the law of supply and demand. The reason people with degrees make more money is that not everyone has degrees. If everyone did have degrees, then having a degree would be like having a high school diploma. What degrees have been doing is telling the employers who are the more able among those who apply for jobs that require the skills imparted by education. If you universalize degrees, employers will have to find another way to determine who the best people are. What you won’t do is make it possible for everyone to earn a million extra inflation-adjusted dollars.

In the second place, consider what you’d have to do to universalize college degrees. Among other things, you’d need to dumb down the standards, to weaken the conditions under which those degrees are granted, so that more members of lower-IQ races would find a degree within their intellectual reach. Again, this would simply devalue the possession of a degree, and employers would have to find another way to figure out who can do their mentally demanding jobs, as opposed to who merely had a college degree, which will have come to signify nothing.

In the third place, why should anyone pay more taxes to supply someone else’s kid with tuition money? If YOU feel so charitable, then YOU do it. But in all events, please leave my money alone.

Dunwoody Mom

September 28th, 2010
6:42 am

Perhaps then our Board of Regents needs to quit putting the price of college out of reach for many.

teacher&mom

September 28th, 2010
6:52 am

I think sometimes we look down on vo-tech schools without realizing what the schools offer. We tend to jump to the conclusion that it is just a place to get a nail tech or plumbing license. Technical colleges actually have a wide variety of options that include articulation agreements with many 4 year colleges (Southern Poly, GA Tech, NGCSU, West GA, etc.).

I think we should steer more students toward the local technical colleges. Like it or not, even with HOPE, many students can’t afford college. Especially if they have to live on campus. There are many parts of this state where commuter access to a four year school is difficult. However, most technical colleges have been strategically placed throughout the state allowing for easier access.

catlady

September 28th, 2010
6:52 am

I think part of the rub here is semantics. We say, “College” when we mean “postsecondary education.”

FLED

September 28th, 2010
6:55 am

The sad truth is that many students in Georgia are just too stupid to go to college. Georgia is a cesspool, a pit of uneducated, ignorant rednecks who salivate like Pavlov’s dog at the sight of a football.

I’m so glad that I don’t live in Georgia any longer. My child is free of mediocrity. Free at last.

Hope I never come back.

teacher&mom

September 28th, 2010
6:58 am

Here’s another reason so many in GA don’t go to college (or at least why many of my school system’s graduates choose a vocational route) – HOPE Grant is free for technical diplomas and many of our students are eager to start working. They see four more years of college as drudgery. Technical college offers them the option of entering the workforce within two years after HS graduation. Not saying I agree with their logic but that is what motivates many of them.

Joy in Teaching

September 28th, 2010
7:08 am

@ ScienceTeacher671 Amen! Students arrive to us in the 6th grade woefuly unprepared as well. I have students who passed the CRCT in the 5th grade who cannont consistently spell their own name correctly. They are not special needs students. When I point out their mispelled name, they look at it, scrunch their eyes up for a while, and then say, “Oh yeah…I forgot!” How can one possible forget how to spell their own name?

The legacy of NCLB is that we are going to have an entire generation of students who are very, very passive about their education. They expect for their teachers to work themselves to death making sure the standards are covered in an entertaining manner while they sit there waiting to take a test over and over again until they get an acceptable grade. Very few of them study or take notes in class. Why bother when teachers are being forced by administration to give limitless numbers of retakes on tests?

Math Teacher

September 28th, 2010
7:13 am

This statistic indicates a correlation, but not a causation. Maybe people with college degrees are people who would have worked hard enough to make more money regardless of their level of education.

I think it would be great to send more people to college and have more educated and smarter people doing all the different things we need done in our country, but I don’t know that it is likely. Remember the other study that said 60% of 2-year school freshmen and 30% of 4-year freshmen needed remedial classes. If we increase the number of students enrolled, would increase the amount we have to remediate.

WEB DuBois said, “to seek to make the blacksmith a scholar is almost as silly as the more modern scheme of making the scholar a blacksmith; almost, but not quite.” This is a very old discussion, and I don’t think it can be resolved just by saying “Everyone should go to college.”

Eddie Longs Cadillac

September 28th, 2010
7:34 am

College for everyone…hmmm…too many default on their student loans and college ISNT for everyone. Example? Look at Obama…he went to college and still remains a stupid fool.

Attentive Parent

September 28th, 2010
7:43 am

Maureen-you use the terms “well-educated” and “degreed” interchangeably as if they are synonyms and they are not. Moreover the nature of the degree greatly matters to the income it will produce.

Sociology or communications majors do not have the same earning power as chemistry or mechanical engineering. That $ 1 million number is an average and it’s not discounted to a present value.

The present value of that increased stream is about $250,000 so if you have a weak major and go to an expensive private school now, you probably will spend more on college than you will get back.

Plus as others have noted, this everyone goes assumption has the effect of dumbing down what colleges can ask of incoming freshmen.

What will be the value of a degree if grads cannot write well? That’s hard to hide for long in an email world.

New School

September 28th, 2010
7:45 am

I can’t tell if you are making a distinction between postsecondary education/postsecondary credentials, and college.

GT

September 28th, 2010
7:47 am

Enrollment at technical schools is just booming because people have realized that they need at least something from a technical college (trade school to you, Ernest:) Folks are beginning to realize that HOPE will pay for all of their two year technical degrees, and there are some degrees that you can get at a GA tech school in primarily online format.

When people say “Well, everyone needs to go to college), they need to remember that we are NOT talking just four-year colleges, and that there are some pretty lucrative two year degrees also from the tech colleges.

Rob

September 28th, 2010
8:00 am

“So, tell me again why we need more vo-tech classes and fewer college bound students?”

In a perfect world, we need more 17-18 year olds that can meet the academic rigors of college. The problem is the mindset that if you don’t get into a college, you’re a failure. Parents expect their little boys and girls to get into Harvard and then begin blaming their child’s teachers and the school when they receive a B or a C. This inevitably leads to grade inflation, and hurts the population as a whole when Johnny walks into Georgia Tech as a freshman and has never learned how to study for a test.

We should be following China’s model. Identify the high-achievers and send them to different schools.

We don’t need more vo-tech classes and fewer college bound students. What we NEED to do is remove the stigma from community colleges and technical colleges.

Dr. John Trotter

September 28th, 2010
8:00 am

Every student should go to college, eh? But, we still have a drop-out rate which hovers around 40% or more. How about us trying to retain a bulk of the 40% who drop out by restoring meaningful vocational education into the curricula? It was just plain STUPID (yes, I am shouting this) to eliminate vocational education in Georgia…just so there might be a miniscule rise in standardized test scores and superintendents like Beverly Hall could get whopping bonuses. For example, the auto body shop at the old Archer High School was very successful, and the graduate of this program got jobs at places like Beaudry Ford. But, without this successful program (which won many state competitions under the leadership of Mr. James Whitehead), these students from the Perry Homes/Hollywood Court/Gun Club Road area would often just drop out of school.

Eliminating the relevant and meaningful vocational education programs was insane. Now we have these pious reports like this one intoning how important it is for students to graduate from college. Well it is also financially better for all to become engineers too, right? What proves too much proves nothing at all.

ChristieS.

September 28th, 2010
8:01 am

Catlady, I agree with your point about most of the difference being semantics. The perception of post-secondary education should include vo-tech as well as academic diplomas and degrees. I definitely want the electrician who wires my house or the mechanic who fixes my car to have the training and education to do the job right the first time.

I’ve traveled both routes, myself. After high school graduation in 1981, I went to a vo-tech business school and learned the bookkeeping and office skills necessary to get a job and to do that job correctly. The last thing my company needed was someone untrained playing around with their financial information or business documents. My company depended on me and I depended on the skills and training I received through my vo-tech post-secondary education. I earned my formal accounting degree several years later, and now am finishing up my ECE degree as a mid-life career changer. :D

What really needs to happen, in my opinion, is for vo-tech post-secondary education to be truly valued by our society. Until it is valued and respected on par with “college” education, we’ll continue to have these arguments. The debate is, however, mostly semantics.

CW

September 28th, 2010
8:07 am

Thanks for the summary. Did the report address the possibility that the projected need for additional college educated persons in Georgia might be met by an influx of college educated persons from outside Georgia? Atlanta and its SMSA have been a commerce hub, so I would anticipate that as the economy improves more people would move to Georgia.

Re the racist comments from The Truth; studies show that immigrant populations start paying taxes very soon after arriving, that they are a source of entrepreneurs leading to small businesses (the driving force in the US economy) and histroically have been a source of great intellectual stimulation and creativity. Also, they have a higher birth rate, so the future of social security likely will depend on continued immigration and not indigenous birth rates (which have fallen), or as you might state, our future is on their backs. Go figure.

This May Be A Shock

September 28th, 2010
8:18 am

Hypothetically, if every student got a college degree somehow (not possible of course), who would employ them all?

Educrats think every student should be the next ceo.

You thought illegal immigration was bad now, wait till everyone is TOO good to do the service jobs we need to keep things running.

V for Vendetta

September 28th, 2010
8:43 am

This study is indicative of the clouded thinking in education–and the reason we are consistently going backwards instead of forwards. Quite simply, it is, can, and should be impossible for everyone to attend college. It is not a matter of denying any person(s) the chance; rather, it is a simple fact of life: if one holds to the standards set forth by any educational institution, one would expect some to pass and some to fail. Think of it this way:

If we held to our standards and were appropriately rigorous . . .

Not all students would pass elementary school

Not all students would pass middle school

Not all students would pass high school

Not all students would go to post-secondary school

Not all students would graduate with a four-year degree.

But some people might feel bad, and we can’t have that now, can we?

Attentive Parent

September 28th, 2010
8:45 am

There are many articles out there now explaining that higher ed is in an unsustainable finance bubble that, like housing, will collapse.

Here’s a succinct link to an article that refutes most of what Maureen has asserted and raises the points others are making here http://www.educationnews.org/commentaries/100751.html

Finally a plumber or electrician always has demand for their work and the jobs cannot be exported overseas. It’s not as prestigious though or as much fun for the students as football games and the Greek system.

How many kids these days have a very expensive college degree and have learned mostly how much they like having a good time and living well and not working too hard? Now find a lucrative job and start paying off that debt.

teacher&mom

September 28th, 2010
8:55 am

Attentive Parent makes a good point about salaries. I have a friend whose daughter just graduated from a technical college in radiology. She was hired by a cancer treatment center making just under 60K. I’ve taught 16 years, have my EdS, and still don’t make 60K.

My son is looking at dropping out of college and enrolling at a technical college. He plans to get a technical diploma in a field that interests him and a AAS diploma in business. While he loves the college courses that are related to his future plans, he hates the required courses in the humanities and social sciences. His argument is that he already had World History in high school (which he loved) but resents having to sit through the course AGAIN to hear the same information from a professor that manages to make the class boring and monotonous. Trying to encourage him to stick it out and get through the first two years isn’t working. Right now, he sees it as a waste of his time and a delay to his future plans. With the associates degree he can always transfer back to a four year college. Not to mention the associate degree will cost about the same as one semester at a four year school.

Dr. Tim

September 28th, 2010
8:55 am

I agree that post secondary training of some sort is necessary, but would argue vehemently that college is not the answer for everyone. We have so degraded the value of an academic degree that now we have companies requiring a BA or BS in almost anything as a pre-requisite for entry level positionsthat, in the past, required nothing more than a HS diploma or a bit of commercial or technical education. We need to erase the stigma of vocational training!

Attentive Parent

September 28th, 2010
8:58 am

This is an excellent analysis of the financial benefits of college from the finance editor at The Atlantic. It was written last week and has been widely cited since.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/09/the-high-cost-of-college/63445/

It really is a must read for parents and high school and college students trying to figure out what really makes sense especially if you are borrowing the money.

Proud Black Man

September 28th, 2010
9:38 am

@ David Sims

“Among other things, you’d need to dumb down the standards, to weaken the conditions under which those degrees are granted, so that more members of lower-IQ races would find a degree within their intellectual reach.”

What a racist statement. I’m surprised, not really, that no one else has called you on it.

Reality

September 28th, 2010
9:38 am

For all students or even most students from high school to go to college is a horrible error.

Can’t everyone see that we are ‘feeding the system’? Let me give you one example. A professor at Clayton State was complaining about his job to me. He said that the ’students’ enrolled to become teachers are lacking in most every aspect – they cannot speak proper English, they cannot write a complete sentence, they don’t know any content, etc. However, he was recently told that no student of his can make below a C in any class. Why?

Well, Clayton State wants to grow. So, they don’t want to “fail out” any student.

The result? Certified teachers into the system that really are not qualified.

If we continue to expect more students to go to college, and the colleges want to grow and refuse to allow anyone to fail, what does that mean in terms of the value of a college education?

EnoughAlready

September 28th, 2010
9:45 am

It’s funny because NO ONE finds fault with jobs, career or occupations that don’t necessary require the skills of a college educated person; however, when the advertisement is placed, that’s the expectation.

Also, people without college education are stuck when it comes to advancement in the workplace. You might not need a college education to work in a call center, but to get out of the call center at 35 you are told you don’t qualify because the only road to advancement is a bachelors degree.

The same thing goes for a garbageman who wants to move into management of his department or team after 15 to 20 years on the job.

Many of these people, who are held back due to their education, have more knowledge of the job and expereince than the college educated people who are put in those positions.

Education is the most important thing in life, regardless of where you start out; unless you want to sell yourself short at 25,000 a year for 30 to 40 years.

Gail

September 28th, 2010
9:51 am

I agree with drew(former teacher) that many of the children who are dropping out are doing so because vo-tech is not an easy option and there is a push for college prep classes. I know of at least one student who dropped out because he didn’t want to go to college and was getting frustrated with school
.
Also, you have to look at what type of jobs are available in an area. Does Murray County have jobs for people with 2 & 4 year degrees? If not, then that explains the lower % of college degreed residents.

Dunwoody Mom

September 28th, 2010
10:02 am

Maureen, any idea of the called meeting at the GABOE is about?

come on now

September 28th, 2010
10:11 am

You ask, “So, tell me again why we need more vo-tech classes and fewer college bound students?”. Here is the reason why; politicans and educrats are telling us we are an information society, but do we still need to build things. Look at China’s success is it because of information or are they producing (building) items they export.

Besides food the only export the US has is its manufacturing jobs. I have read several articles about professions that need SKILLED workers. We are having to import skilled labor at machine shops (like the one in Wasington state) that can not find them locally; China is manufacturing the solar panels that is suppose to create green jobs here, HA. China will probably have to send over work crews to install them also due to the fact we are an “information society”. Who will maintain the new green equipment; wait I know, the country that builds the windmills for us must send over maintence crews also. Where will the pipes and steel come from to fix America’s crumbling infrastructure?

Seems like we have outsourced all our backbone.

Ricky Vickery, Board Member, Construction Education Foundation of Georgia

September 28th, 2010
10:14 am

While your statistics indicate that getting a “higher” education increases the odds of success later in life, the statistics do not take into consideration the fact that not all students are college material. For those that are not college bound, we need to provide vocational education and skills training that will enable them to enter the workforce with the confidence that they will be competetive in the job market and have the ability to provide a good living for their families. Providing students the opportunity for skills training in high school and technical college also gives them direction and challenges them to excell.

I would much rather be pro-active and face the fact that a good number of high school students will not be attending college and give them career choices and the necessary training to excell than to stick my head in the sand and ignore those that do not attend college and focus all my efforts on only those that do attend college.

If you have any doubts as to the merits of providing skills training, please take the time next spring to attend the Career Expo that the Construction Education Foundation of Georgia along with Skills USA hosts for Georgia’s students. Or at least visit our website at CEFGA.org to learn more about why we should provide more opportunities for skills training for Georgia’s students. You have my email address, I invite you to contact me for more information or to discuss the merits of vocational education for Georgia’s students.

Proud Black Man

September 28th, 2010
10:31 am

@ The Truth

“Once again, Liberals are destroying our country. The same thing has already happened across Europe, where the white native population struggles to support the demands of the immigrant population. The Leftest in charge do not care about how many white girls the muslims gang rape, or how many AIDS infested Africans they invite over that dont discover they have AIDS until they have infected 10 or so niave white women with the deadly disease that will ruin their lives.”

Another bigot or possibly the same one using different monikers…coward.

@ Maureen

Whats going on? Has Get Schooled turned into a white nationalist site?

Maureen Downey

September 28th, 2010
10:54 am

I know it is about personnel, but not sure who or what.
Maureen

Maureen Downey

September 28th, 2010
11:02 am

@PBM, You raise an ongoing issue with me — should I kick out the racist drivel or allow some of it to post so people understand that these attitudes still exist and that they may well influence policy?
I do take out the worst of these comments, but I am open to views on whether I am granting too much latitude. I worked for 12 years for Cynthia Tucker — who was the best boss I ever had and brilliant. She was fair, open-minded and the most ethical human being I ever met.
Her position on letters to the editor, which I have adopted here, was to publish some of the fringe stuff so readers understood that these people were still among us.
Maureen

RJ

September 28th, 2010
11:13 am

The truth is every student doesn’t need to go to college. I’ve actually shared with my children that the expectation is that they learn a skill that allows them to be independent. That means that if they choose to go to college that’s fine, but if they choose to attend a technical school, that’s fine too. My brother is a truck driver and earns just as much, actually more, than I do. He chose to drop out of college. I stayed, earned advanced degrees and guess who ends up earning more?

We need a skilled workforce. It doesn’t have to be a 4 year college degree.

k teacher

September 28th, 2010
11:15 am

I have a brother-in-law who works for one of the phone companies, another who works for a major retail chain, another who is a master mechanic with Ford Motor Company, a nephew who owns his own Shane’s Rib Shack franchise, another who is a Chick-fil-a owner/operator, another who is a body shop mechanic, another who is an assistant manager in a Publix meat department, another who is an electrician …

None of them are “college educated” but all make way more than me after five years as a teacher and none of them have $1000’s in student loans trying to get a Master’s Degree (the only way to get any kind of salary increase right now in education) as I do. They worked their way up through the ranks, worked hard, did apprenticeships, took vocational classes, etc.

College/University isn’t the be all, end all. I’m sure tunes will change when we don’t have enough mechanics, truck drivers, postal clerks, cashiers, entreprenuers, butchers, fire fighters, farmers, etc. and we’re paying through the nose even more than now to have our air conditioners fixed, our plumbing repaired, our goods delivered, our food grown, our cars maintained, our …

k teacher

September 28th, 2010
11:15 am

PS … Yes, I’m on my lunch break.

Gary

September 28th, 2010
11:18 am

“So, tell me again why we need more vo-tech classes and fewer college bound students?”

It isn’t that we need fewer college classes. We need both Career and Technical Education classes (old Vo-Tech) and classes for the college bound. The NC DOL Secretary published a statistic two years ago that stated the “industry that created the greatest number of millionaires – Construction.” I think the author of this article needs to research further: Unskilled vs. Skilled labor; Skilled labor w/o a high school diploma; Skilled labor w/a high school diploma; Skilled labor with a two year degree.

The author also appears to not take into account that just because you don’t go to college upon graduation from high school, that you can’t go back to school later or that you can learn a trade and go to school at the same time.

20 years in workforce development and I can not understand why the “academics” can’t realize that it is not an either/or proposition – go to college or go learn a trade, but not both.

V for Vendetta

September 28th, 2010
11:39 am

PBM,

David Sims admitted he was a racist on the Father Boards School Bus blog. Look at page two. I called him on it, and he admitted to being a white supremacist.

David Sims

September 28th, 2010
11:51 am

@teacher&mom & Ricky Vickery. You two are right. I sometimes wish that I’d studied carpentry and masonry instead of astronomy and physics. Then I’d always have plenty of customers for my skills, and I could build my own house for the price of the lumber, nails, concrete, PVC pipes, and electric lines. I know a fellow who built a house here in the hills; he spent about 8K and has a nice WV retreat if he ever gets tired of the West Coast.

@EnoughAlready. It’s sad that very skilled people who don’t have college degrees can seldom earn more than $25000 per year by working for other people. But, on the other hand, they can sometimes go into business for themselves, trading their skill without an exploiter for a middleman, and make money faster than that. Or, anyway, they can where the government doesn’t intrude its regulations into amicable, honorable agreements between man and man.

@come on now. Yes! The basis of any economy is manufacturing, harnessing energy in some form to turn some kind of raw materials into useful goods. Manufacturing is where wealth really comes from. A country that loses its manufacturing sector loses its wealth, sooner or later. Information can be duplicated very easily and at very low cost, whereas for another meal or another desk chair you must spend more energy to process more raw materials into useful form.

Economic systems are subsets of the physical system in which they are embedded, and money is mostly just a token that entitles its bearer to the use of energy, or to the acquisition of some useful thing made with the consumption of energy.

@CW. Illegal immigrants are a net drain on public resources. They don’t pay enough taxes to offset what they use, and furthermore they commit a lot of crimes and push Americans out of the territories that they enter in significant numbers. On top of that, they have a political movement going that seeks to strip the American southwest away from the United States and create a new Latino state upon the territory.

@V for Vendetta, that was a very sensible comment. Yes, we should hold educational standards rigorously, realizing that some students will fail at each hurdle. We probably should give them a 2nd try by holding them back a year, but if they fail twice, then they’ve found the limit of their natural talent and ought to be refused further enrollment in public schools.

@Proud Black Man. “What a racist statement. I’m surprised, not really, that no one else has called you on it.”

Racist statements are often true. College work is more difficult than high school work, and the lower-IQ races already have difficulty meeting the already weakened standards of high schools. Certainly, there are some blacks who can do intellectual work at that level—but there aren’t many.

That “The Truth” fellow is right. London has a bad problem, and most of it is the result of too many non-White immigrants in that city. The rest of it is the result of the British having become almost outlaws in their own country, tolerated only if they keep quiet about the abuses the Blacks and the Pakis deal them. If they say anything about it, they’ll get arrested by cops who know better, but don’t care enough to fight the system.

One more thing, PBM. You are being mighty forward for a fellow who hasn’t the courage to post under his real name. What is it?

David Sims

September 28th, 2010
12:00 pm

@V for Vendetta. Well, now. I admit to being a racist because I am a racist. You wouldn’t want me to lie, would you? However, I did not say that I was a white supremacist. There are very few supremacists among white racists, despite the habitual misuse of the term by the mainstream media.

A racial supremacist wants other races to be the slaves of his race. The white racists in America don’t want that. We recognize that slavery was a grave mistake, without which we’d be much better off today because there wouldn’t be any blacks here.

White racists are separatists. They don’t want to enslave. They want to partition. The term “white separatist” is accurate. The term “white supremacist” is inaccurate. The mainstream media, which is largely owned by Zionist Jews, continually misuses the word supremacist in referring to white racists in order to instill confusion and hatred among non-white groups.

CW

September 28th, 2010
12:26 pm

Dear David Sims, I was responding to The Truth’s comments, which targeted immigrants. The writer did not mention illegal immigrants. When mentioning illegal immigrants I assume you are targeting Spanish speaking persons and ignoring other groups such as illegal immigrants from Ireland recently highlighted in the news. Re your other assertions, please provide credible documentation supporting your nonsense.

David Sims

September 28th, 2010
12:27 pm

@Proud Black Man. You’re a liar. You are a coward who hides behind a screen name.

My real name is David Sims.
Kevin Strom is someone else.
I have never been convicted of a sex crime.
I have never been convicted of -any- crime other than traffic violations.

Proud Black Man, you have a bad habit, and it is going to get you into trouble. Libel is a felony, and you are now at least five times guilty.

Quote from http://www.dba-oracle.com/oracle_news/news_states_criminal_libel_web_internet.htm
“Internet libel is a felony! Many people on the web think that privacy laws protect their anonymity, but that’s not the case when criminal charges are filed. Google’s motto is “Do no evil” and they are cooperating with law enforcement to help prosecute crooks by introducing their Google searches as evidence.”

What do you want to bet that an attorney can’t find you if I hire one to do so?

Proud Black Man

September 28th, 2010
12:47 pm

@ David Sims

“What do you want to bet that an attorney can’t find you if I hire one to do so?”

?

What do you want to bet that I could care less what a racist child molester thinks. Find you another hobby loser.

David Sims

September 28th, 2010
12:53 pm

@CW. Documenting the costs of illegal immigration is so easy that I’m surprise you didn’t simply type “cost of illegal immigration” into a web search and get the information for yourself. It would be best for you to do that, so that this discussion doesn’t take off on a long tangent, such as the one PBM and I inflicted on the discussion following “Are the feds in any better position to figure out whether some APS schools cheated on the CRCT?”

I’ll give you these links just to get you started:

Illegal Immigration Costs U.S. $113 Billion a Year. State’s “cheap labor” costs average household $1183 a year.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/02/immigration-costs-fair-amnesty-educations-costs-reform/

There’s a newsletter being circulated that exaggerates this cost to $340 billion per year. The cost isn’t yet that high, but, on the other hand, the actual cost is within an order of magnitude of that, and might reach it in a few years.

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersf134

Quote: “At that time [1996], the illegal alien population was estimated to be about five million persons. The estimated fiscal cost of those illegal aliens to the federal, state and local governments was about $33 billion. This impact was partially offset by an estimated $12.6 billion in taxes paid to the federal, state and local governments, resulting in a net cost to the American taxpayer of about $20 billion every year. This estimate did not include indirect costs that result from unemployment payments to Americans who lost their jobs to illegal aliens willing to work for lower wages. Nor did it include lost tax collections from those American workers who became unemployed. The study estimated those indirect costs from illegal immigration at an additional $4.3 billion annually. During the years since that estimate, the illegal alien population is estimated to have roughly doubled, so the estimated fiscal costs also will have at least doubled. Furthermore, the passage of time is accompanied by inflation in the costs of services, e.g., school budgets continue to climb. Therefore, what was estimated to be a cost to the American taxpayer of $33 billion in 1996 today would be at least $70 billion. Similarly, tax collections would have increased — sales taxes at least — so that the net expense to the taxpayer from illegal immigration would currently be at least $45 billion. The indirect fiscal costs would have also increased, especially during a period of already high unemployment, to perhaps and additional $10 billion annually.”

Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

Quote: “Among the key finding of the report are that the state’s already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers’ money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals.” (This is just in California.)

Quote: “California’s addiction to ‘cheap’ illegal alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state’s shrinking middle class tax base,” stated Dan Stein, President of FAIR. “Most Californians, who have seen their taxes increase while public services deteriorate, already know the impact that mass illegal immigration is having on their communities, but even they may be shocked when they learn just how much of a drain illegal immigration has become.”

From these sources, you find a range for what illegal immigration costs Americans each year, with a low estimate of $55 billion and a high estimate of $113 billion. The US labor force has something like 100 million to 110 million workers, so the cost of illegal immigration to the average employed American is around $550 to $1100 per year. In California, the cost is near the top of that estimate (or perhaps even a bit higher). In other US states, the cost may be somewhat less, as some of the services come from the state, rather than from the federal government.