A teacher despondent over poor rating takes his own life, reopening the debate over public rankings based on student test scores

I must surmise there was more to this suicide than mere teaching scores. Perhaps embezzlement, extortion, selfishness, bank robbey, inadequacy, low self-esteem, drug abuse, alcholism etc.

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May he RIP.

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@ seen it all

That about sums it up. My condolences to the family.

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This story breaks my heart. I remember thinking when the LA Times published that list how demoralized the teachers in LA must have felt. Then to have Arne Duncan and others praise the LA Times for publishing the list, that was salt added to the wound. While the list probably wasn’t the sole reason he committed suicide, I have a hard time believing it didn’t create a tipping point.

When you work closely with at-risk students, it is really hard not to be depressed. Sometimes you feel like you are digging a hole at the beach. No matter how hard you try, how much effort you expend, the hole keeps filling up. Life for these students outside the walls of your classroom is often very cruel and unfair. I felt that way when I left work yesterday. A student I have mentored for the past year has decided to quit school and live with her boyfriend. Her parents don’t care, she’s of legal age, and the boyfriend is one incident away from jail. At this point, nothing I can say or do matters. While I’m not suicidal, if I had gone home and opened to local paper to see my name under the “less effective” column, I probably would have thrown in the towel and left the profession.

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In Gwinnett County, there was a case of a principal that killed herself after a meeting over test scores. When teaching is your life, it is easy to become depressed when scores do not turn out the way you want them to. I am a special education teacher, and my students take the same test as all other students on their grade level. Some, with reading disabilities, read two grade levels behind. Yet, there scores still count. If all students could perform the same, then we no longer need classes like English Language Learners, gifted education, or special education. It is not fair to assume that all students can do it. What about students that just do not test well? Students that have rough home lives also have much on their minds during testing. You cannot evaluate a year’s worth of teacher over 60 math questions on one test.

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“I do think a compilation of test scores tell you something about a teacher, as long as you also know something about the students as well.”

Maureen, I think you hit the nail on the head. To lump the weight of a class’ test scores, good or bad, solely on the teacher is unfair. It lets the students (and their parent/parents) off the hook entirely.

While a teacher is certainly accountable, the student should take some responsibility as well. I am convinced (and I know I’ll catch heck for saying it) that there are simply kids, for whatever reason, who don’t even attempt to try to perform well. Their peers are telling them it isn’t cool to be smart. At home, they’re being left to their own devices to do whatever they please. To ask a teacher to undo a history of this is asking a lot and in many cases (after a certain point), it just can’t be done.

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as you can see, the uber liberal downey can not stand for personal accountability to occur. THerefore, she must demonize a process by which an employee is evaluated – even by a third party. By creating the air of “improper” action by the paper, she is providing cover for the most overpaid (and underperforming) sector of government employee – the public school teacher.

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also, tuckergirl – this should be a problem in the first 2 or 3 grades, after that, the child should have been persuaded that the benefits of public education are obvious and good for the child – they should be taught that learning is enjoyable – thus the “individual teaching plan” for each kid that teachers have to author.

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special teacher – you adequately demonstrate the failures of NCLFB – the special ed kids should NOT be counted – it provides an unequal playing field when evaluating student performance.

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if I was making $60,000 after 10 years of work, with two months off in the summer, plus schedule weeks off three or four times a year, my evaluation would not bother me – unless it was unfair – in GA – how kids do on the CRCT (curriculum referenced test – no?) should be a fair evaluation tool – if less than 50% of my kids (as stated, special ed kids would be exempt) fail, then I should probably fbe fired.

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people make too many assumptions. Maybe this man was a great teacher, who was distraught over the test scores being publicized. Maybe he did feel terribly about his performance and decided to end it. Maybe he was just at wits’ end. It is not anyone’s place to presume why he did what he did. The only one who knows why he ended it is no longer available for consultation, and that is very, very sad.

The problem is that there is so much that is expected from our teachers, yet they are not fairly compensated for the work that they do. They are expected to perform miracles with children, and you know what? Some children are not going to learn, no matter what you do. Some kids are not going to pass all the tests that they are supposed to pass. God Bless Teachers for trying.

and no, I am not a teacher.

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per the 11:09 post – if 85% at the least of your kids pass, you should be on some type of probation – if that occurs in consecutive years!

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teacher in GA – what state level “politician” is full time paid at the $60,000 level? PLus, they cover the entire state – a lot more variety in problems to overcome – teachers are local government employees – of those other local employees – who earns as much with the terrific benefits, yet has very little accountability?

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each teacher should have their crct passing test scores published on the local BOE website – if a teacher is scoring under 70%, they should be fired.

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It’s sad for sure, but if you can’t handle a critical review of your performance, then you aren’t cut out for your career.

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@ Paddy-O

It would be great if your perfect world existed where special ed kids’ test scores were not factored in…but they are. Each spring we give the CRCT to dozens of children at our school who cannot read, write, hold a pencil, or even speak.

Furthermore, we give the CRCT to children who cannot speak English. In doing so, we are not testing what these children know. We are testing their English skills.

The push for accountability has birthed an illogical monster that no one is willing to stand up against. I keep hoping someone, somewhere will stand up and admit that NCLB and its inclusion of ALL students is insane. I had always hoped things would change before I left the profession. I now am coming to the realization that won’t happen.

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@ Vince- The CRCT proves nothing, no matter its language or that of the student. It’s an absolute waste of time.

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plus, what about all that paid time off? 2 months in the summer, Christmas, Easter, other?

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vince -we are in agreement – the identified students who do not learn information as normal kids do (special education kids) should be separated out and evaluated on a separate system – what it is, I could not tell you. If you wish to administer the CRCT just to see how off the normal kids they are, or if maybe a program is working more efficiently than others, that is fine – but DO NOT count them is the AYP #ers – it is impossible to meet with these type of students evaluated similarly.

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teacher GA – you are drinking the liberal kool aid (there is no personal accountability)- kids are not that grossly different – they should ALL learn the basics – the CRCT evaluates how much of the basics they have absorbed. Why should not the students’ performance be well known to the taxpaying public?

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I consider myself to be above average in Mathematics. When I look at the Math homework my son brings home it brings tears to my eyes. The way Mathematics is being taught in this state (nation?) will never lead to desired results. Stating this, the question arises: how can we judge the teacher’s performance on test scores when the material and the methods are questionable? I am all for accountability but I have not found a way that allows me to measure a teacher’s performance in a way that makes sense toward the system and toward the individual. We are all looking for silver bullets, quick and easy answers that do not require us to make the tough choices. Simply blaming the teachers does not solve this issue. Simply throwing more money at it will not solve this issue. We need to look at everything involved and we need to truly make this issue a priority. We just found out that the resources are not bottomless but we still pay enormous amounts abroad (military). It’s a choice. Yesterday I heard it again: you don’t go into teaching for the money. I dare to ask: why not? Everybody else invests to get into better paying jobs. Why should the same not hold true for teachers? We pay contractors in Iraq enormous salaries but we won’t do the same for good teachers… That’s an economic choice. We tell our teachers what to teach and how to teach it without their expert input but then we turn around and make them responsible for the results after we call them back from their day of furlough. That does not solve the problem that was so adequately stated yesterday in “Education nation”: we are a Superpower with a third world educational system and we refuse to make it a priority!

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I’ve been teaching ten years, and I don’t even make $50, 000 – from where did you get your numbers? I also have no “paid time off” – teachers are only paid for their contracted days (and everyone who works Monday Friday gets Easter off – it’s a SUNDAY). Health insurance is the same as all state employees, from what I understand, and like everyone else in America, the cost has gone up while the benfits have gone down. We’re vested in TRS after ten years – when I worked in the private sector, I was vested after 5 – don’t see how that is better. We get 50% of the average our last two years pay after 25 years, and 60% after 30. I don’t know if that’s better or not, but I wouldn’t call that a “full” pension like many refer to it as. You were called a troll because you came on stomping about and spouting so-called “facts” that we know are untrue. Add to the debate, sure, but back it up with real facts. For the record, I have a minute to post because I am waiting on a parent to show for a conference – the conference was scheduled for 11:30.

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Jan – what do you think are the salaries for teacher with all the paid, schedule time off they have? Most start at over $30,000 – which compared to other local government jobs, is quite good.

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And do those local government jobs require a college degree?

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Any teachers on the blog?

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teacher – the CRCT evaluates THE CURRICULUM – that should be the focus of what you are teaching, should it not? Or, is the curriculum that total garbage? PLease, make your argument have some sort of basis for logic.

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Fact – Teachers are under paid, under appreciated and over worked. Plain and Simple.

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white man – remove yourself from utopia – you are having he common sense suffocated out of you. White man – tell us what the average teacher with 10 years experience is earning for their 180 days, please.

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Paddy O – Why do you hate teachers and their pay scale so much? Are you jealous or something?

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Jan wrote,

“Yesterday I heard it again: you don’t go into teaching for the money. I dare to say, why not?”

Jan, you are absolutely correct. If we really valued education in this country, salaries would be stellar, teachers wouldn’t have to work two or three jobs just to keep their families afloat (and no, Paddy O, we’re NOT off during the summer; we’re working to keep up after furloughs), and the competition to become a teacher would be so stiff that only the best would be considered. Until teachers are paid what they’re worth as the second-most important job on the planet (following parent), we will not get the best and brightest into the classroom. The saddest thing is that our lack of respect for teachers and teaching masks the real truth: in this country, we do not value children. Thus, we do not value teachers.

Until we have a fundeamental shift in values, therefore, nothing will change.

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@ Paddy-o

Glad we are in agreement about the CRCT. I wish the people who make decisions about such stuff could see the light.

AS far as benefits, my insurance premiums are high and, I guess luckily, I never get to see any benefits of insurance coverage. My deductibles and copays are so high that I never get to the point where insurance helps me. Ina twisted way, I guess that is agood thing, but it doesn’t say much about my benefits.

Days off? I get the standard federal holidays…MLK, Labor, Memorial, July 4th, etc. I also get Thanksgiving, Christmas, Christmas Eve, etc. Other than that I have a 245 day work schedule much like everyone else.

As far as salary, I do okay, but with my furlough days, no raises, etc I am making 24,000 less this year than I was scheduled to.

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I have served in the military and worked in the private sector for both a large corporation and a small family-owned company. I have also run my own business. I’ve done it all, and I can say honestly that EVERY job has its pros and cons. The best benefits I had with the best working conditions were actually for a major corporation – I am insulated from nothing. While my contract days are 190, I can guarantee you that I, like most teachers, work for more than that.

We are in a weird position as we hired by our local district, but partially funded by the state. Our health insurance is part of the State Health Benefit Plan that all state workers have. You are complaining about your pay – do you have a college degree? If you don’t like what you are doing, then you can become a teacher for all the time off and great benefits – what’s stopping you? They just launched a new website to attract people to the profession – see Maureen’s posts from yesterday.

For the record, the parent hasn’t shown – I need to go do something else. Have a good day.

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I have a question…How come most teachers both married and single seem to be real partiers?

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Seenitall,
There is a major difference: This teacher’s name was published in the newspapers for all to see. In GA, ineffective teachers’ problems are dealt with confidentially.

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Paddy O-

1. When teachers can be backed up for disciplinary problems in the classroom in GA, you will see test scores rise. Teachers hands are TIED behind their back with spineless administrators that do not want to hire a lawyer to defend the schools when the right decisions are made regarding discipline.

2. When teachers can actually be allowed to follow through on just ONE reform to see if it works, scores will rise. Do you have any idea how many “magic bullets” are fired to fix scores, but then abandoned midstream because another “bullet” looks better?

3. In your “two months off work” argument, do you take into account the classes teachers have to take to keep certification – the ones they get to pay for? Do you take into account the planning a teacher does UNPAID? The grading of essays outside of the school day that is UNPAID? Or, do you take into account the parent calls MANDATED by administration to be made at home during UNPAID time? How about the UNPAID time teachers have to put in for after school conferences to PLEAD with parents to talk to their children to behave better?

4. Benefits? Are you kidding? Have you even looked at real data about those? Can you cite these “wonderful” benefits? I have yet to see them.

It will take a little more than the luck of the Irish to get your proverbial head out of your nether regions, I realize. You try to get 35 kids, with IEPs, Gifted Students, Spoiled Students all in one class, to do something productive first and then you can speak of teaching. Until then, stick to what you know.

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Paddy O, I agree with you on having a type of measurement for evaluating teachers should be student based. I do think teachers are for the most part compensated fairly, although I do not think they should be paid more for getting advanced degrees at some of these on-line colleges.

A great deal of people go into government service jobs knowing they will not make as much money as they could in the private sector but know they will have a more secure job and benefits should be a little better in than the private sector. This is no longer true because the benefits are being cut left and right and pay is not as good. This is an issue that will have to be addressed in the next few years or you are not going to have enough people to man these jobs (teachers, fire fighters, police, social services caseworkers). What are we as a state going to do then?

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Obama’s great idea: More school days, because their parents don’t have books at home. In other words, we better put them in school around teachers who have the ability to make a better influence on their lives rather than their sorry parents who are more interested in _____________ (fill in the blank). I wonder what percentage of LA public school districts students are sons and daughters of illegals? How many have their actual father in the home? Coincidence? You decide. Liberals, stay out of this discussion. America is sick and tired of your political correctness, socialism, and policies that are wrapped really pretty but full of CRAP.

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whiteman-

The reason we’re partiers is that it’s an escape from seeing how horrible our society is becoming. Public schools are pretty much the best way to look at a cross section of America. It’s today’s best melting pot to disect to see how American culture is progressing, er, or was progressing. We are no longer progressing and our children are paying the price for it. The children who are in school right now are complacent, bored and for the most part spoiled. They have never had to want for much. They mostly have no drive and their work ethic is absolutely disgusting. Today, the AJC published an article talking about the gap between poor and rich in America and Georgia, explaining that the gap has grown to a size larger than we’ve seen since probably the days of Slavery. If the kids I see on a daily basis stay as complacent, it’s only going to get worse. And that fact alone is a great reason to party…..because if there’s no hope, you might as well get wasted.

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So much to think about. Remember the local principal several years ago who committed suicide because her (excellent) school ended up on the truly random assignment “AYP” list. As long as naive and incompetent policymakers – AND REPORTERS – use what the experts KNOW to be virtually random data (including single measure test scores – which includes the LA “value-added” differences) to punish teachers and their schools capriciously (a lay term for total lack of validity), there are people with their hearts and souls devoted to helping kids who will be devastated – no matter the unfairness. It suggests that the people driving these so-called “reforms” don’t actually care about kids, teachers, improving learning, – - or the future of our society.

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it is not hate, it is cost benefit; plus, how many people think that their property taxes for the operation of the local BOE are too low? When you factor the cost in with the SAT test scores, it seems we are paying for a cadillac and getting a Yugo.

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white man – you misquote statements, can you not read? the standard work year days is about 250. the contract calls for 180. Vince corrected me – the teacher health benefits are typical. But, no one mentions the pension – which is very good.Katie: The second most important job after parents? First, parenting should not be perceived as a job. Secondly, I would say ALL the military jobs are more important, all the guys working on the dangerous wells in the Gulf, all the people who operate nuclear facilities, farmers, the list goes on & on. It is attitudes like that which demonstrate the insulated universe that teachers operate in (and which indicate many do not have a very broad understanding of the society & economy they live in). Also, how do you fund your utopian vision of super high salaries? More taxes? Classes with 50 kids in it? Vince – you state you are making 24,000 less than scheduled, but not what your actual annual compensation is – you are cherry picking a little data to persuade people, but for the most part your arguments are persuasive. I doubt most of the continuing education requirements for teachers have any benefit – but teachers need to argue that point – plus, how do most teachers fulfill this? Seminars or summer classes? @ padio – I am not complaining about my salary, in the market I work in, it is terrific. I complain about insulated teachers in rural areas thinking their $45,000 a year (average most counties) salary with all the scheduled time off is tough to live on – it is not – go work for Budweiser, or a carpet mill – or be a cop in Atlanta, or state patrolmen in high speed chase. The teachers average day should not be very stressful, outside of middle & high school.

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what if – your statements indicate you have a persecution complex. The CRCT passing rates per teacher in GA should be utilized to gauge teacher efficacy. If a teacher has less than 80% 2 consecutive years, you might want to look into the caliber of their teaching methods. It was also give parents ammunition to request that their kid be moved to the teacher with 100%.

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I’m sure that this poor man had other issues, but being publicly humiliated by being called “less effective” would probably be enough to push someone over the edge. I wonder how those of you who are critical of him would like it if a newspaper published the scores of individual students. Maybe they could also include things like the parents’ marital status, education and income levels. I’m guessing this wouldn’t go over too well.

@PaddyO, I have a master’s degree and am in my thirteenth year of teaching. I make about $52,000/year for the third year in a row. I should have gotten a step increase this year, but that did not happen. Yes, I do better than most people in my small town because I chose this field. Others are free to choose it, too. And, yes, I do make more than other local government employess such as law officers and sanitation workers. Their jobs do not require degrees, although I think that law officers who put their lives in danger should make at least as much, if not more, than I do.

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So Paddy O thinks that teaching is not stressful unless you are teaching high school or middle school? Wow…you become more illogical the more you post.

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As a teacher, I have to counsel myself sometimes: I am only responsible for what happens in my classroom; I can only control what my students experience while they are with me. I can give them tools for real life, but I only see them for 90 minutes for 18 weeks. There is only so much I can control. At times, this is depressing and overwhelming.

This is why I am a big advocate of teachers living balanced lives. I stay after as long as my kids need me… TWO days a week. The other three days, I leave at contract time (I still take work home) and then I go work out because I have to keep myself healthy in order to perform optimally. I made some games and activities but not all; I need a life too, away from school, with non-teacher friends.

The last two years, I learned some harsh lessons. I gave a lot, financially, emotionally, time-wise, to my students and my profession, and I learned that when the going gets tough, my salary is first on the chopping block and nobody gives a sh*t about my well-being. I’ve always worked two jobs; now, if my significant other wasn’t helping me with bills, I wouldn’t be able to make it without going further into debt. This year: no supplies paid for out of my pocket. Teachers, we are responsible for ourselves, and we need to set some boundaries. This poor man didn’t do that.

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Everybody should ignore Paddy O. Paddy O reminds me of someone I know who joins a blog like this and takes up positions like Paddy O has done today. Why? He thinks it is funny.

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As a teacher, I have to counsel myself sometimes: I am only responsible for what happens in my classroom; I can only control what my students experience while they are with me. I can give them tools for real life, but I only see them for 90 minutes for 18 weeks. There is only so much I can control. At times, this is depressing and overwhelming.

This is why I am a big advocate of teachers living balanced lives. I stay after as long as my kids need me… TWO days a week. The other three days, I leave at contract time (I still take work home) and then I go work out because I have to keep myself healthy in order to perform optimally. I made some games and activities but not all; I need a life too, away from school, with non-teacher friends.

The last two years, I learned some harsh lessons. I gave a lot, financially, emotionally, time-wise, to my students and my profession, and I learned that when the going gets tough, my salary is first on the chopping block and nobody gives a sh*t about my well-being. I’ve always worked two jobs; now, if my significant other wasn’t helping me with bills, I wouldn’t be able to make it without going further into debt. This year: no supplies paid for out of my pocket. Teachers, we are responsible for ourselves, and we need to set some boundaries. This poor man didn’t do that.

THANKS FOR THIS COMMENT BOOK LOVER!

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Something to think about: what kind of pure fools are schools going to get to replace the inadequate teachers fired under the ludicrous “value added” system. I know that my son, currently doing double degrees in Mathematics and Philosophy, wouldn’t take the kind of abuse being dished out to teachers if they started him out at $100K per year. I (or most any other teacher with 30+ years experience) could design a real evaluation program. It’s needed. But schools want to evaluate “on the cheap,” hence “value added.”

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What if – you are right on. I am glad you are taking time for yourself. You should.

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Teacher GA: No, Paddy only seems illogical because like so many, he finds it easy to speak of things he knows little about. Things always look simpler that way. Knowing enough to know when you don’t know enough is a rare trait.

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it appears what if has a serious paranoid-dementia problem – unless of course he/she has more than anecdotal evidence (what big company, name of those low paid employees); any teacher here know if this where GA actually receives its testing material? If so, the state BOE is jettisoning its obligation – they should be writing the actual test questions and only contracting out the printing of the test material. Ms. Downy, do you know if any of this apparent gibberish is accurate?

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[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by ginavergel, Maureen Downey. Maureen Downey said: A teacher despondent over poor rating takes his own life, reopening the debate over public rankings based on stude… http://bit.ly/cxY6CE [...]

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Fact is some kids don’t care if they pass or not cause mama and dady don’t care. I went into a classroom today and watched as a teacher taught. It was evident who would pass and who would fail. Six or seven students were attentive and trying while others looked into space. When the teacher switched to another activity the attentive kids went right to work and the others fumbled around wondering what to do. After talking to the teacher I realized she was frustrated. Some might accuse the teacher of not teaching to all learning styles. What a load of crap? When I was in school regardless of how the teacher taught I was expected to adapt and learn. The teacher explained to the non attentive kids they must participate in order to learn the material and pass, but they don’t seem to care. Why should teachers be judged on whether or not these kids pass the test? Why are these kids so non attentive? Why do other kids pay attention and care about grades? Are the attentive kids motivated by parents that believe and preach education is the key to success? What is the answer?

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I have never said the job was easier, but in concurrence with an earlier post, it is easier to teach kids prior to their teenage years when they have a better notion of authority. I respect the job teachers do, I do not appreciate thought teachers feigning the old fashion notion that they have low paying jobs. Your $49,000 is probably about what a lot of police & fire chiefs make in your small towns – where the cost of living is pretty low – for both them and the teachers that live there.

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You should also know that your $49,000 is about double what a starting state trooper makes in GA.

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it also appears that many teachers on this blog have fairly thin skin.

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*debate

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I have no idea who Paddy O or other such persons are, but I can tell from their comments they are ignorant of the demands, the rewards, the challenges of educating young people. Their comments also demonstrate their lack of civility and respect for teachers. I have been a high school teacher for 34 years (and yes I could have retired at 30). The profession is more demanding now than it was when I began. I continue to do it because I believe that education is vital to the health and future of this country. For those of you who think teachers are overpaid and have an easy job, please send us your names and phone numbers. We will arrange for you to “teach” for just a week. Walk a mile in our shoes (and you will be surprised). Oh, the financial pay and benefits: it is not what you think. Check your facts before making such claims.

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Paddy O,

As far as your question about the percentage of students who fall into the category of poverty/single parenting, it depends on where you are teaching. In my classroom, this is about 50%.

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@Jordan..Let’s hope that if GA ever publishes a list of ineffective teachers, they read this study from the U.S. Department of Education. I wonder if the LA Times didn’t take the time to read through the article? Since Arne Duncan praised the LA Times for publishing the names, maybe he didn’t read the publication from his own department.

“Type I and II error rates for teacher-level analyses will be about 26 percent if three years of data are use for estimation. This means that in a typical performance measurement system, more than 1 in 4 teachers who are truly average in performance will be erroneously identified for special treatment, and more than 1 in 4 teachers who differ from average performance by 3 months of student learning in math or 4 months in reading will be overlooked. In addition, Type I and II error rates will likely decrease by only about one half (from 26 to 12 percent) using 10 years of data.”

http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pubs/20104004/pdf/20104004.pdf

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teacher&mom
Thanks for the link! I’ll pass this along with a slightly warmer heart.

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Forgot to mention, Paddy O, you do realize that most teachers will not draw Social Security, right?

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Another thought – play long, my friend, play along…

You wrote, “the key is the CRCT scores – are the last 3 years higher than the 3 prior to you earning your degree?”

You realize that that is a completely invalid comparison, right? Year to year comparisons of completely different kids really don’t show anything at all – let alone the fact that the teacher may change subjects or grades, may teach gifted or SPED one year and not another, or may teach at a transient school where the kids move mid-year.

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Paddy O, you are ignorant and jealous. Stop bashing others and get a life. The average starting salary of many college graduates is $50,000K a year. Why would I as a parent, be willing to pay for a degree for my children or encourage them to go into debt to obtain a college degree a career that did not start out over $50,000 per year.

Just because you are not earning more money, is no reason other people should not.

The taxes in Georgia are too low. The infrastructure is failing, our schools are failing. We have no jobs. This state thought that we could survive on growth and that people would continue to move into this state. That people would move here for low wage jobs, well now those jobs have been offshored. The education system has done nothing to train the society of georgia for skilled jobs. The whole white and black culture of Georgia, along with the importation of the hispanics that beleive it is OKay to drop out of high school.

I am a best and brightest import from up North to Georgia, my high school did not have have the drop outs like here. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 350 students, everyone stayed the entire 4 years together.

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Paddy-O, please come to my classroom and teach for a week. I don’t make anywhere near $60,000 a year, over 130 children cross my threshhold every day, and I have a useless parapro for 1 class. I have way more than a few kids who don’t care and get no support from their parents. I teach 3 children who are English speaking but are fuctionally illiterate. I work my behind off to make sure that I do everything I can to help my kids learn and so far their test scores have been way above state average. But I’m tired of dealing with people like you who have no idea what they’re running off at the mouth about. I’m tired of being held accountable for things beyond my control. I’m also leaving the profession as soon as I complete my PhD (in a field that is NOT education). So Paddy-O, please get certfied to teach in my place; you seem to know it all and I’m sure you’ll do just fine – if you make it to Christmas.

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@ Maureen, Teacher GA, others blaming this tragedy on the LA Times’ editorial decision to quantify something badly in need of quantification: Let’s remember (or look up!) the difference between proximate and ultimate causes — the rating may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back, but that doesn’t make it the “real” culprit. Rational Man has struggled, and struggles eternally, with depression; Rational Man has an inner rogues’ gallery as well. This could, and should, have been prevented long before the Times number-crunchers input test score one.

@ Paddy O: I’ve noticed a correlation, in general, between opposition to the public school system and deviation from standard English grammar and punctuation. Forgive my forwardness, but I’m wondering: did you have a personal bad experience with public schools as a child? We don’t have to be enemies; I’d like to help you, but you need to let me.

Rational Man, away!

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The problem is not teachers. Education has no value to many of the children that public schools serve. Politically correct people, and yes most Democrats, fail to acknowledge that a group of people have ruined the public school system. Why is it necessary to provide dental care and day care in a public school? Teachers are not the parents, they are teachers. Loading them down with tons of paperwork is not the answer to improving education. Lengthening the school year is not the answer. Most of the children have the latest gaming technology, so it is apparent that they can afford books. They make choices, so they have to live with their choices. Stop blaming teachers and hold parents accountable. I hope that the next governor will require parents to be accountable.

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There is no shame in not being able to teach black kids. I haven’t heard of anyone doing it successfully without herculean efforts and even then they still score lower than poor asian kids in bad schools.

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Oh Patty -O,
Let’s just blame teachers for EVERYTHING wrong in society. Until NCLB address childhood poverty & healthcare and other social issues, it truly has no merit or reliability to hold teachers & schools accountable for 5 days of test scores. I guess I’m just supposed to “overcome” all the ELLs that I teach on a daily basis, and magically get them to grade level in 1 year once they enter US schools, or perhaps my ELLs who were born here and really need other services, I’m just supposed to “overcome” this too (I guess you and others might suggest I should attempt to deport them as well – hello it’s called Plyler vs. Doe), all for 58,000 a year (-30,000 in college loans … both graduate & undergraduate) in 180 days with 3 less planning days. Oh yea, and there’s no lunch break (middle school eats with the kids), few if any bathroom breaks, and no two 15 min. breaks either, like most 9-5 hourly jobs have. Oh yea and if you’re sick you have to show up, leave some plans, and spend hours calling subs. What job asks employees to do that? Seriously. Our pay is for 190 days minus furlough days divided by 12 months no matter how many hours we work including weekend school events as well, which aren’t included in the 190 days. GET IT. Clearly it’s been awhile since you’ve been in the system. My benefits like most teachers have gotten worse over the last 15 years now, and my TRS retirement … how much did teachers LOSE during the economic downfall. Oh yea and there’s no vacation days … teachers can’t just go to Disney whenever they feel like it, they’re bound by the BOE’s calendar.

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You’re pretty smart for an Ole Guy, Bravo!

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Others – as I have said, two of the teachers on this blog have provided very educational information – teacher & Vince; others who are mad at what I have stated why? Because someone does not walk lock step in your narrative of how underpaid and underappreciated you are? Regarding the “we have a college degree so we are special”, and it cost us so much – I assume most of you were Hope folks, no? So, your education did not set you back so much. To the damn Yankee – Georgians are not sheep like the fools in the northeast with their addiction to unions and exceptionally high taxes – my brother has a similar house to the one i have here in NJ, and he pays over $10,000 a year in property tax – so please, do not wish that upon Georgia. another comment – you are a little too in love with yourself. If your kid grew up here with a B average, he/she could go to GA Tech or UGA and not pay tuition – pretty nifty state policy, no?

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I think we need to evaluate what happened to Paddy O. That might give some indication of what we might need to improve on.

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Teachers can’t draw social secutiry? That’s a new one to me… Why won’t most teachers draw SS? I get my annual SS statements that show how much I can expect to receive each month when I turn 62 or 65 and decide to draw SS.

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abacus – did you enjoy your tantrum? you did not in any way address any of my assertions – just another protest of an opinion that does not run parallel to the narrative many teachers and their professional association trots out for their own propoganda – and political purposes (personal benefit). Michele adequately demonstrated what my comments have objected to, and I feel is far more preponderant than should be, considering the circumstances.

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Teacher GA continues the typical liberal attack against opposing opinion – personal attack & slander, as opposed to data designed to be persuasive. It indicates a lack of evidence to support their position, thus the insults, condescension and dismissive attitude – as displayed by Miss Scarlet and Bruce Kendall.

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Depends on the system. Some systems grandfathered in; most did not. The large majority of teachers do not pay into SS nationwide, although I do not know exact numbers. Makes you look at the pension numbers a little differently.

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@ paddy o: FYI: I have been accepted to every single institute of higher education I applied to; was a former National Honor Society member; attended SHU, UF & UWG; it would indicate your thought process, that leads to such insulting assumptions, is grossly faulty, NO? Also, base on your answer process, you post from multiple identities on a single topic – a bit odd.

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the comparison of like college graduates, you must know, it impossible – it depends upon major – mass comm, philosophy and marketing are relatively junk degrees – compared to business or public admin, bio, accounting,etc. My base of comparision is other local government employees – those that receive their pay from the taxpayer who does not currently have a good system for determining whether those teachers are excelling at their job, or not – thus, I would publish CRCT data for each teacher – the plus side would be, if you had 90%+ passing, you would receive “excellence bonuses”.

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A sense of perspective, please.

What we know is that (1) Mr. Ruelas’ name was published in the newspaper as a substandard performing teacher, and (2) his dead body was found at the bottom of a ravine. There is no police report or coroner’s report or inquest finding as to the cause of his death. Everything is else is conjecture or fodder for those espousing a political opinion.

I for one am very concerned about young children being in the care and custody of a potential suicide. If indeed Mr. Ruelas was suicidal, why was he in the classroom?

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You did know that teachers pay into TRS a percentage from their paycheck, right? So they are not “keeping more” than if they paid into SS – it’s in lieu of paying into SS. Those teachers pay into both may also get penalized and not receive SSI benfits upon retirement, even if they have paid in.

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I would concur regarding the college degree – but an adequate # of other government employee job titles do require or recommend a college degree.

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actually, previously i stated i had a BS; I don’t particularly like children – i find them relatively annoying, so being a teacher would be a very bad career choice. also, many keep attempting to put words in my mouth rather than look at my objections and motivations, which those who do not like my statement seem to simply ignore. on this article: distinct conclusion jumping, designed to manipulate public opinion against the notion that you can evaluate teachers based on the accomplishment of their students – i suggest the CRCT passing rate; i also find is grossly disengenuous that some of the best paid local government employees, who have safe jobs, doing something they should love, with typical benefits and great pensions, seem mad, unhappy and exceptionally whiny – i still say look at Michele’s post – it typifies many public statement by school teachers – it is also on display quite effectively in NJ. If teachers earned between 35,000 and 55,000 for their career – that would be a good job, considering the long span of time off (who else other than athletes get this type of schedule?) I have learned quite a bit info so far, and will bounce it off a teacher I know where I live – if she contradicts a lot of statements, I must assume many posters here are still striving to manipulate public opinion via false propoganda.

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@ paddy o – also, you know with all the indepth personal questions, you are playing “gotcha”, so you can discredit my discussion statements – why has no one here complained about suavez, above? Tacit concurrence?

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I just read Suarez’s comment, and I’m not touching that one w/ a ten foot pole. All I asked you was whether or not you had a college degree, and why you don’t teach – I didn’t think those were particularly in-depth. I thought they were relevant to the discussion at hand. you seemed perfectly willing to share all your other thoughts – why not those?

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@ paddy o – i have enjoyed talking with you – you have given me a lot more information than I previously had – and this subject is just one narrow bandwidth of what annoys me about our current politically correct culture. I guess my question is – what makes the CRCT so terrible? Does it not mirror the curriculum? Or, is the curriculum also junk? If you published teacher CRCT passing data, parents would be able to look at it – if the teacher had consecutive years of less than 50% passing, I would think many parents would avoid that teacher like the plague. I would also, as stated, use that data to provide excellence bonus pay. I think Jordan’s comments demonstrate the thin skinned atmosphere of many teachers – my assertions remain, as evidenced by the few teachers here who gave honest data – primarily “teacher” above & Michele B – that teacher do earn an adequate and even good wage, with an excellent retirement and good vacation plan. I know of a teacher with 5 years experience that out earns her attorney husband, who is in his first year of practice – this is distinct evidence of the misbalance of teacher salaries. But, she is an excellent teacher – similar to “teacher” above. I disagree with the idealistic demands of NCLB, as eventually the improvement will be wrung out of the system. In rural & urban GA, I would not surprised if 25-40% of the kids come from disfunctional homes – but that is a result of the utopian idealism philosophy that came out of the 60’s. Where I grew up, everyone graduated high school – I can’t understand the stupidity of kids in this millenia who don’t get a HS degree – that is a one way ticket to tough poverty. The salaries that teachers have attained have actually priced themselves out of their own market – that is why you see the laying off of a lot teachers & the increase in class size. The data I have indicates that almost all school districts have an average salary of at least $42,000; it does not give median. This is problematic when you have falling real estate prices.

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From looking at my postings, I spent about 35 minutes on this today – which was very educational.

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Jordan – more thin skinned reaction, and, this is not a private bathroom.

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Okay, Paddy-O. You’re right.

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Okay, Paddy-O. You’re right.

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Oh yea, Patty-O, teachers earn salary because we are PROFESSIONALS not a wage like workers, and to your example of the lawyer friend, I’m sure a first year teacher with a graduate degree would still not earn as much as a first year lawyer.

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@ Michelle B. – the worst part about teacher contracts is that they’re worthless as contracts. If I quit before the end of the year I can lose my certificate. The district can simply decide that they don’t have enough students and let me go without any repercussions.

Paddy O has some valid points. Many teachers do have decent salaries, especially considering the summers & Christmas break. I think that student scores should for a PART of a teacher’s evaluation. But not the whole thing – as Paddy O seems to suggest. For example – I taught honor’s classes for 4 years – in those 4 years I never had a student flunk a state test. Because I think I’m pretty good at my job I volunteered to teach all the repeater/SPED inclusion classes. Now I’m running 50-60% pass rates. Which is pretty good considering out of my 20 students in each period 8-12 have some diagnosed learning disability or language deficiency. Before I started teaching those classes, these students were passing state tests at around 10-15% rate at my school. Long story short – under Paddy O’s proposal I’m in some trouble.

Going back to the original topic of the blog – I see a lot more of this kind of stuff happening. We’ve been verbally told 132 times (i started a tally after a while) over the past 2 1/2 years that if we don’t make AYP that we’re all gonna be canned. I teach history and math is why we didn’t make AYP. I own a house in town, my wife owns a small business. So on what planet is a students test scores that I have no control over a fair way to completely uproot and destroy a hard working American family’s life?

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Michele B has a disconnect from reality – she is not being paid as a 190 day contract person – her salary, as a governmental employee compensates her as a 12 month employee – she has drunk the teacher association kool aid and does not make statements that have much credibility; the fact that her house is worth more than she owes is whose fault? the parents of her kids? (FYI: The fact she claims her statements are NOT whining indicate her statements do not carry a tremendous level of credibility – she is whining, without a doubt.) Her house value decrease should completely explain to her why she has not received a raise – her source of income is PROPERTY TAXPAYER based, as opposed to an engineer, accountant, executive whose source of funds for their income comes primarily from their own talents and convincing their customer base they are highly qualified at their job. It is a BIG difference, and one which at one time led to substantially lower government pay compared to private enterprise. The US is on the verge of flipping this paradigm, and as stated before, it is NOT sustainable. I would agree with Chris that SPED classes would not be held to the typical standards and, I still say the CRCT #ers would be a great and easy measurement of teachers with regular learning kids; the SPED kids would need some type of antecedent analysis – something many of the employees at the state BOE should be able to come up with. Also, I am not advocating the use of CRCT passing rates to set salary – that would be set normally, but, excellence would be rewarded, mediocrity corrected, and manure tossed out.

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Hey Paddy, your concern is most-appreciated. Being on the west coast for a few days, my comments may appear to be hatched three hours later than real time. At midnight, I was hammering a few micro brews…a good cure for insomnia! Ergo, I suspect this comment should appear to be written shortly after 1900/7 pm, at which time I intend to be “addressing”, once again, the insomnia issue.

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One more comment on the professional statement – I concur – good teachers are exceptional treasures – but, one element affecting salary – a professional engineer working in Atlanta can pick up, start his own business and if good, make a 5 figure income. What private work is available to professional teachers? Tudoring? Not a 5 figure income. This lack of high competitiveness from the private sector generally depresses most restricted to government employment positions. But, as a society, we value teachers – always have. The problem is many teachers have become very selfish & tunnel visioned – this country does not produce things like we did in the 70’s – that is they key to private wealth creation – without the production, private sector wealth decreases and the ability to pay good salaries to teachers & other government employees wanes – NAFTA must be repealed/amended and import tariffs implemented or we will soon be approaching 3rd world status – importing all of our needs – such as clothes, electronics, fuel oil, etc.

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Patty-o, again realism and whining are two different things. I’m here to educate the uneducated. I don’t believe that you are living in the real world either. Teachers like other professionals have been impacted by this economic downfall. Teachers are compensated fairly for what they do and how many days they do it, which like I’ve said earlier (which was unacknowledged by yourself) end up working more that 190 eight hour days with a typical lunch break. So, I’m not sure how these FACTS have anything to do with post-modern feminism?
I do agree that “manure (should be) tossed out” especially on this blog. Yes, I too can purposely misquote and take out of context to make a point, like you’ve done for the last two days.

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the realism is if you told teachers in the 70’s that they would earn $58,000 per year, far exceeding the median household income, they would have been overjoyed. I have not taken anything out of context – most of the statements support my arguments – I have spoken to other teacher who also hilariously assert they receive no paid holiday or vacation time. As I indicated, professional salaries paid by the government are impacted by portability – engineers, attorneys, human resource people, financial people, even those in the planning field have the ability to quit a job not paying well & most likely obtain one in the private sector with better pay, better healthy care, but most likely NOT better pensions, nor job security. It is accurate that teachers pay into the TRS, but quite inaccurate to say teachers do not receive SS benefits. One of the problems with the teaching field, the profession is not terribly portable, and thus economically acted upon to suppress wages – that and the fact the salaries are truncated by the ability of property taxes to foot the bill without becoming outrageous, as they are in NJ & other parts of the NE. GA teachers should compare their salaries to those around the nation – my understanding is they lead the southeast, and I also know are high than those for the City of Toledo, OH – who most likely has a higher cost of living. That would be a valuable comparison – to help determine if the salaries are out of proportion with the cost of living.

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If as you say, Paddy O, I am paid for 245 days, then my furlough cuts should should be a lot less – they are currently cutting each day of pay at 190 day contract rate.

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Michele B – your reading comprehension is a little off – my reference to feminism was to indicate one of the reasons why students behaved as badly as they do now (primarily anti-authority) – radical idealist utopian movements – one of which is feminism – which while accomplishing a great deal for the female elite has genuinely done a disservice to those non-elite woman (about 60% of woman) – which has lead to the disintregation of the traditional child rearing process – married men & women conceiving deeply desired and loved – children.

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Oh Patty-o, so the need to a two income family is to blame for all the issues of schools? So basically women need to say at home and be bare foot and pregnant. Well maybe you need to back in time, my friend because I don’t see these economic trends changing any time soon. BTW, every middle school in my county regardless of type of schedule requires teachers to eat lunch with the kids.

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