A teacher despondent over poor rating takes his own life, reopening the debate over public rankings based on student test scores
We have not discussed in depth the controversial LA Times project in which the newspaper obtained student test scores, correlated them with teachers and then rated teachers accordingly as effective or ineffective. The project is back in the news after the suicide of a teacher despondent over his rating by the newspaper.
The teacher’s death is reopening the debate about public disclosure of teacher performance based solely on test scores. I do think a compilation of test scores tell you something about a teacher, as long as you also know something about the students as well.
In explaining what it did, the LA Times wrote:
About 6,000 Los Angeles elementary school teachers and 470 elementary schools are included in The Times’ database of “value-added” ratings. Third-, fourth- and fifth-grade teachers who taught at least 60 students from the 2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years were evaluated in the Times analysis. Most of Los Angeles Unified School District’s elementary schools are included. Test scores for charter schools that do not report directly to the district were not available.
A teacher’s value-added rating is based on his or her students’ progress on the California Standards Tests for English and math. The difference between a student’s expected growth and actual performance is the “value” a teacher added or subtracted during the year. A school’s value-added rating is based on the performance of all students tested there during that period.
I remain uncertain about how much of a role test scores should play in teacher evaluations, although I believe they ought to play some role. (Any student scores used to assess a teacher should reflect student progress/growth rather than any absolute numbers.)
Any suicide is a tragedy. I have written in the past about suicide and know that there is typically a history of depression in adult suicides and that it is very difficult to pinpoint one single event as the sole cause. I think it is clear that 39-year-old Rigoberto Ruelas Jr., a fifth-grade teacher, was upset over his rating, but I am not sure that anyone can quantify how much of a factor the rating was in his apparent decision to take his own life.
He sounds like a great teacher. His death is a loss to his family and his school community.
Here is the very good AP story by reporter Christina Hoag:
The Los Angeles Times should remove teacher performance ratings from its website after the apparent suicide of a teacher despondent over his score, which was published in August, the union representing Los Angeles school teachers said.
United Teachers Los Angeles has also asked school administrators to join with them in the request to the newspaper, union president AJ Duffy said.
The body of 39-year-old Rigoberto Ruelas Jr., a fifth-grade teacher at Miramonte Elementary School, was found Sunday at the foot of a remote forest bridge. Investigators believe he jumped to his death, although the inquiry is continuing, Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department spokesman Steve Whitmore said.
The motive for Ruelas taking his own life is far from clear. But union officials said he had been upset since the Times published his district ranking as a “less effective” teacher based on his students’ standardized English and math test scores.
Ruelas scored “average” in getting his students up to acceptable levels in English, but “less effective” in math, and “less effective” overall. The school itself ranked as “least effective” in raising test scores, and only five of Miramonte’s 35 teachers were ranked as average.
The Times’ publication of individual rankings for elementary school teachers sparked widespread outrage among teachers. The rankings ranged from least and less effective to average, more effective and most effective.
The union protested in front of the newspaper’s downtown headquarters and called for a boycott of the Times, which published the rankings as part of a push for a better method to evaluate teacher effectiveness.
Although other factors may have been at play in Ruelas’ death, union official Mathew Taylor said Monday he believed the ranking was a contributing factor based on conversations with teachers at the school. Principals have been using the rankings to crack down on teachers, he said.
“He was a very well-respected teacher,” Taylor said. “He took the pressure being applied to him to heart.”
In a brief statement Sunday, the Times extended its condolences to the family and noted the death is under investigation.
Superintendent Ramon Cortines has said the type of teacher rankings published by the Times, known as “value-added,” shouldn’t be used as the sole criteria to measure effectiveness. The school board last month authorized the district to start developing a new method for evaluating teachers that incorporates value-added rankings, as well as in-classroom observation and other measures.
Detractors say value-added rankings place too much emphasis on test-score teaching, especially in schools like Miramonte, a large school in an impoverished, gang-plagued neighborhood about six miles southeast of downtown Los Angeles. About 60 percent of Miramonte students are Spanish-speaking English-language learners.
“Test scores are directly related to the socio-economic status of the student population,” said Taylor. “The best teachers are given the toughest kids. This man had won many awards.”
By all accounts, Ruelas did not shy away from problem kids.
Parents and former students described him as a mentor to youth tempted to join gangs and a tireless booster that low-income children could make it to college. He often stayed after school to tutor struggling kids and offer counseling so they stayed on the straight and narrow.
“He took the worse students and tried to change their lives,” said Ismael Delgado, a 20-year-old former student. “I had friends who wanted to be gangsters, but he talked them out of it. He treated you like family.”
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200 comments Add your comment
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
1:18 pm
NW GA teacher – other bloggers questioned the validity of CRCT – this seems absurd to me – so, if the CRCT is NOT a reflection of what kids have been taught, it needs to. Do not select public school teacher review the test question pool, to verify the applicabilty of the CRCT? Or, have teachers reviewed the CRCT and found it to be junk? That would be valuable information.
@high school teacher
September 29th, 2010
1:29 pm
Depends on the system. Some systems grandfathered in; most did not. The large majority of teachers do not pay into SS nationwide, although I do not know exact numbers. Makes you look at the pension numbers a little differently.
@ Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
1:56 pm
I’m BACK, baby!! And I am wondering if they have an operation to remove that chip from your shoulder, lol.
You said, “Because someone does not walk lock step in your narrative of how underpaid and underappreciated you are?” I never said underpaid – I said adequately paid, but on the low end of a scale for people with college degrees, even with the number of days factored in. We are underaprreciated – your assinine comments are just the tip of the iceberg.
You said, “Regarding the “we have a college degree so we are special”, and it cost us so much – I assume most of you were Hope folks, no? So, your education did not set you back so much.” I never said I was special (although I’m guessing by your derision that you don’t have one). I said that for a proper comparison of salaries, you need to compare apples to apples – that is college educated jobs to other college educated jobs. I was not a HOPE recipient; I graduated before HOPE was enacted, as did many, many other teachers (and I have the $500/month student loan bill to show for it). Many other teachers came from out of state or went to private colleges where the HOPE was not a large part of their funding if they received it at all. HOPE doesn’t cover everything – lots of HOPE recipients still had to take out student loans.
You said, “To the damn Yankee – Georgians are not sheep like the fools in the northeast with their addiction to unions and exceptionally high taxes – my brother has a similar house to the one i have here in NJ, and he pays over $10,000 a year in property tax – so please, do not wish that upon Georgia.”
I never said I wished it upon Georgia – I said that if you think taxes are high here, you should see up north. How utterly silly to assume such that I would want that here – there IS a reason I live here. I don’t belong to any teacher organization, and I often disagree with the nation-wide unions I never said I was a Yankee either.
Finally, you also said, “another comment – you are a little too in love with yourself. If your kid grew up here with a B average, he/she could go to GA Tech or UGA and not pay tuition – pretty nifty state policy, no?”
I am in love with myself – why wouldn’t I be? I am utterly fabulous. LOL. What a ridiculous thing to state from a blog – but it did make me smile. I am well aware of the latter part of your statement since I have two beautiful, intelligent children who both managed to graduate from college courtesy (in part) of the HOPE. Tell me something I don’t already know.
While this jousting and jesting has been fun, I do actually take very seriously people spouting off as fact things that are untrue. Teaching is already a tough enough job w/o people believing falsehoods that make it sounds better than it really is. As a career switcher (military, large corporation, small family owned business), I thought I knew what I was getting into – the reality is far different than I ever imagined. As important as this job is, I advised both my children not to major in education – and that’s just sad. This will never attract the best and brightest as long as the politicizing, the status quo, and public opinion remain as is.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
2:58 pm
@ paddy o: FYI: I have been accepted to every single institute of higher education I applied to; was a former National Honor Society member; attended SHU, UF & UWG; it would indicate your thought process, that leads to such insulting assumptions, is grossly faulty, NO? Also, base on your answer process, you post from multiple identities on a single topic – a bit odd.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
3:05 pm
@ high school – if you did not pay in, you kept more of your employed earnings; it seems a lot of un-applicable information is being presented as facts for GA. Also, you aptly demonstrate my comments of 12:35; also, Michele indicates my knowledge of teacher pay in GA is accurate in some instances, and the whining she displays effectively indicates my objection. The only portion of my original statements that were false is the health insurance, which is typical average. Please, tell us what jobs beyond corporate are paying the +$50,000 salaries you are discussing? Is this more Northern state data being brought to the discussion? If you want to refute the damn Yankee comment, please tell us you state of origin.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
3:09 pm
the comparison of like college graduates, you must know, it impossible – it depends upon major – mass comm, philosophy and marketing are relatively junk degrees – compared to business or public admin, bio, accounting,etc. My base of comparision is other local government employees – those that receive their pay from the taxpayer who does not currently have a good system for determining whether those teachers are excelling at their job, or not – thus, I would publish CRCT data for each teacher – the plus side would be, if you had 90%+ passing, you would receive “excellence bonuses”.
@ Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
3:10 pm
” You wrote, “@ paddy o: FYI: I have been accepted to every single institute of higher education I applied to; was a former National Honor Society member; attended SHU, UF & UWG; it would indicate your thought process, that leads to such insulting assumptions, is grossly faulty, NO? Also, base on your answer process, you post from multiple identities on a single topic – a bit odd.”
I have only used one identity for this blog, and that the one addressed to you. Many of your responses either applied to me or I have a comment on – no MPD fo me.
So you went to several colleges – so have I. So you belonged to NHS – so did I. I only assumed, based on your comments, that you didn’t have a degree because, a) you seem particularly derisive of one, and b) you never answered my questions about it.
So, do you have a degree? And if so, why aren’t you a teacher, if the job and benefits are so great? What is keeping you from the profession – and I really want to know, because whenever I confront a blogger-basher w/ that questions, I NEVER get a response!
Burroughston Broch
September 29th, 2010
3:15 pm
A sense of perspective, please.
What we know is that (1) Mr. Ruelas’ name was published in the newspaper as a substandard performing teacher, and (2) his dead body was found at the bottom of a ravine. There is no police report or coroner’s report or inquest finding as to the cause of his death. Everything is else is conjecture or fodder for those espousing a political opinion.
I for one am very concerned about young children being in the care and custody of a potential suicide. If indeed Mr. Ruelas was suicidal, why was he in the classroom?
Teacher GA
September 29th, 2010
3:22 pm
Paddy O – you have may pegged wrong. I actually side with the Republicans. As a matter of fact, I am a card carrying member.
@ Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
3:26 pm
You did know that teachers pay into TRS a percentage from their paycheck, right? So they are not “keeping more” than if they paid into SS – it’s in lieu of paying into SS. Those teachers pay into both may also get penalized and not receive SSI benfits upon retirement, even if they have paid in.
@ Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
3:29 pm
“My base of comparision is other local government employees.”
And I stand by my statement that unless the government job REQUIRES a college degree, the comparison is invalid.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
3:52 pm
I would concur regarding the college degree – but an adequate # of other government employee job titles do require or recommend a college degree.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
3:53 pm
teacher GA – then you understand the argument of low taxes, and having a cost/benefit system to determine whether bad teachers are being overpaid – the CRCT system would seem easiest to utilize.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
4:03 pm
actually, previously i stated i had a BS; I don’t particularly like children – i find them relatively annoying, so being a teacher would be a very bad career choice. also, many keep attempting to put words in my mouth rather than look at my objections and motivations, which those who do not like my statement seem to simply ignore. on this article: distinct conclusion jumping, designed to manipulate public opinion against the notion that you can evaluate teachers based on the accomplishment of their students – i suggest the CRCT passing rate; i also find is grossly disengenuous that some of the best paid local government employees, who have safe jobs, doing something they should love, with typical benefits and great pensions, seem mad, unhappy and exceptionally whiny – i still say look at Michele’s post – it typifies many public statement by school teachers – it is also on display quite effectively in NJ. If teachers earned between 35,000 and 55,000 for their career – that would be a good job, considering the long span of time off (who else other than athletes get this type of schedule?) I have learned quite a bit info so far, and will bounce it off a teacher I know where I live – if she contradicts a lot of statements, I must assume many posters here are still striving to manipulate public opinion via false propoganda.
abacus2
September 29th, 2010
4:38 pm
Paddy-O, do you work nights? If not, as a taxpayer I’m concerned about the amount of time you spend blogging. BTW – I’m not from Georgia so I didn’t get a free ride with the HOPE. I’ve paid for my degrees.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
4:42 pm
@ paddy o – also, you know with all the indepth personal questions, you are playing “gotcha”, so you can discredit my discussion statements – why has no one here complained about suavez, above? Tacit concurrence?
@ Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
4:49 pm
I think you can partially evaluate teachers on student achievement, but if, and only if, there is a corresponding onus of responsiblity placed on students, including not moving kids forward until they are ready. I don’t think my pay should be determined by the whims of a 13 year old he!! bent on annoying his parents by failing. That being said, the CRCT is w/out a doubt one of the WORST ways to measure effectiveness (and it’s a TERRIBLE test). You would need a pre/post-test situation. I feel like, outside of reading, all tests should be written on a level about 2 reading levels below current grade level – why? So we can assure that it is a test on the subject matter, and not on reading skills.
I didn’t see that you mentioned having a degree prior – my bad. Annoying children can definitely be a “con” when it comes to education as a profession – but I still stand by the idea that if you’re not willing to do the job, you shouldn’t complain about the benefits.
I don’t find a lot of this whiny – I find it a desperate attempt by people to explain what it’s really like. There is a lot of misinformation flying around out there. I also don’t find it any worse than other blogs where people complain about their professions – waiters, cruise ship employees, retail – everyone has something to say, and the internet has given them a forum to say it.
If you want to do your own research, check out http://www.trsga.com/ for information on the teacher retirement system – it’s not what a lot of people think. Check out http://dch.georgia.gov/00/channel_title/0,2094,31446711_32021041,00.html for information on insurance. If you know the name of a teacher you can check out their salary at http://open.georgia.gov/ – you can also see all the salary schedules for any distrcit by going to the distrcit website.
@ Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
4:51 pm
I just read Suarez’s comment, and I’m not touching that one w/ a ten foot pole. All I asked you was whether or not you had a college degree, and why you don’t teach – I didn’t think those were particularly in-depth. I thought they were relevant to the discussion at hand. you seemed perfectly willing to share all your other thoughts – why not those?
Jordan Kohanim
September 29th, 2010
5:37 pm
Know that people who mindlessly direct their venom at teachers are no better than bigots, spewing idiotic stereotypes, and that this applies no matter how much money those people have.
You can’t fool all of the people all of the time. Demagogues and false notions fall. Take heart.
But, teachers, don’t go gently into that good night. Make yourself heard. Write a letter to the paper. Submit an op-ed to one of the papers. Even if they don’t print it, they’ll read it. And for goodness sake, feel free to comment here any old time.
Take heart and combine it with strength. The war on public education hinges on your ability to do that.
Maureen Downey
September 29th, 2010
5:58 pm
@Jordan, I am always in the market for good op-eds. You have two options in length as the Monday education page that I assemble is templated, so the lengths are dictated by the design.
Write a 550 word piece
or
an 850.
Send to mdowney@ajc.com
Thanks, Maureen
(Jordan has written. I would encourage more of you to write.)
abacus2
September 29th, 2010
6:19 pm
Paddy-O, you still didn’t answer my question. If you’re going to tell me I’m overpaid and have too much free time on my hands thanks to generous taxpayers I want to be sure that you’re doing your job while on the clock.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
6:32 pm
@ paddy o – i have enjoyed talking with you – you have given me a lot more information than I previously had – and this subject is just one narrow bandwidth of what annoys me about our current politically correct culture. I guess my question is – what makes the CRCT so terrible? Does it not mirror the curriculum? Or, is the curriculum also junk? If you published teacher CRCT passing data, parents would be able to look at it – if the teacher had consecutive years of less than 50% passing, I would think many parents would avoid that teacher like the plague. I would also, as stated, use that data to provide excellence bonus pay. I think Jordan’s comments demonstrate the thin skinned atmosphere of many teachers – my assertions remain, as evidenced by the few teachers here who gave honest data – primarily “teacher” above & Michele B – that teacher do earn an adequate and even good wage, with an excellent retirement and good vacation plan. I know of a teacher with 5 years experience that out earns her attorney husband, who is in his first year of practice – this is distinct evidence of the misbalance of teacher salaries. But, she is an excellent teacher – similar to “teacher” above. I disagree with the idealistic demands of NCLB, as eventually the improvement will be wrung out of the system. In rural & urban GA, I would not surprised if 25-40% of the kids come from disfunctional homes – but that is a result of the utopian idealism philosophy that came out of the 60’s. Where I grew up, everyone graduated high school – I can’t understand the stupidity of kids in this millenia who don’t get a HS degree – that is a one way ticket to tough poverty. The salaries that teachers have attained have actually priced themselves out of their own market – that is why you see the laying off of a lot teachers & the increase in class size. The data I have indicates that almost all school districts have an average salary of at least $42,000; it does not give median. This is problematic when you have falling real estate prices.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
6:39 pm
I did not say you were overpaid, I said you received a good salary. From your 130 # you must be middle school or high school – previously I stated that this is where teaching gets more stressful, and I still believe it. I work generally 8-5 scheduled, but usually stay at work until 6:30 completing necessary work. I usually work about 42-44 hours a week; when I started out it averaged about 48-55 hours, but things get more efficient as you gain more experience. Also did not say free time – you do have excellent scheduled time off though, no? Who else do you know who gets the time off you do, yet still gets paid as though they are working a full 12 months?
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
6:40 pm
From looking at my postings, I spent about 35 minutes on this today – which was very educational.
Jordan Kohanim
September 29th, 2010
6:52 pm
Paddy-O,
Did I name you? Why then do you think it is towards you that I direct my comments? Perhaps I meant my comments to the teachers that I directly addressed in the comment.
Just a thought.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
7:09 pm
Jordan – more thin skinned reaction, and, this is not a private bathroom.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
7:12 pm
also JOrdan, in conflict with your impression that teachers have little voice, the teacher vote is considered key in most elections – as most have a lot of family, and a lot of students who appreciated their teaching; and, 90% probably cast a ballot.
Jordan Kohanim
September 29th, 2010
7:17 pm
Okay, Paddy-O. You’re right.
Paddy O
September 29th, 2010
7:36 pm
nice sarcasm – but conventional wisdom was that the teachers played a key role in Barnes losing to Perdue the last time; i think the flag was a crucial element in that election, but Barnes’ kicking alienating so many in the big tent did cause his campaign to deflate.
Jordan Kohanim
September 29th, 2010
7:41 pm
Okay, Paddy-O. You’re right.
Michelle B.
September 29th, 2010
9:50 pm
Paddy-O, get your facts straight. Teachers are contracted workers; we do NOT get vacation pay. Just 3 personal days during the school year, which become sick days if not used (and like I said it’s not much of a day off due to all the time spent making sub. plans and calling sub – it’s easier to go to work sick). As for summers and other holidays, those are non-contracted thus unpaid days. At most jobs, vacation is a few weeks off & is paid, ours isn’t. There is a distinct difference. Sure maybe compared to some workers teachers to make more per day; however, compared to other PROFESSIONS which REQUIRE higher levels degrees we are compensated equally per day. Please get over you jealously of teacher compensation. If it looks that appealing then please by all means apply to one of our wonderful state universities and enroll in a degree program.
Michelle B.
September 29th, 2010
9:55 pm
Oh yea, Patty-O, teachers earn salary because we are PROFESSIONALS not a wage like workers, and to your example of the lawyer friend, I’m sure a first year teacher with a graduate degree would still not earn as much as a first year lawyer.
Michelle B.
September 29th, 2010
10:14 pm
Still reading & honestly disbelieving some of your remarks Patty-O. I live in the suburbs of Atlanta in a house that is worth less than I owe. I have two kids with rising costs yearly. Both my husband (not a teacher), and I haven’t gotten a raise in about 3 years now with no unsatisfactory ratings. So you have me pegged wrong. Was I whining yesterday? NO. Am I whining now? NO. These are just the facts that many teachers who are tax payers and contributors to our state’s economy face. Then to top it off, we have to deal with people, like yourself, who seem to have no idea what goes on in the classroom, doesn’t even like kids, but thinks that they know about everything regarding education because they when to school a long time ago. So, I guess all of GA’s education problems would be solved if teachers made about $20,000 a year, is that what you would like, Patty-O? You seem to have such vitriol towards educators. Hey, why don’t you pick on administrators? Do you know how much they make? They make 2x as much or more as me, and they only work 210 days a year.
Chris
September 29th, 2010
10:28 pm
@ Michelle B. – the worst part about teacher contracts is that they’re worthless as contracts. If I quit before the end of the year I can lose my certificate. The district can simply decide that they don’t have enough students and let me go without any repercussions.
Paddy O has some valid points. Many teachers do have decent salaries, especially considering the summers & Christmas break. I think that student scores should for a PART of a teacher’s evaluation. But not the whole thing – as Paddy O seems to suggest. For example – I taught honor’s classes for 4 years – in those 4 years I never had a student flunk a state test. Because I think I’m pretty good at my job I volunteered to teach all the repeater/SPED inclusion classes. Now I’m running 50-60% pass rates. Which is pretty good considering out of my 20 students in each period 8-12 have some diagnosed learning disability or language deficiency. Before I started teaching those classes, these students were passing state tests at around 10-15% rate at my school. Long story short – under Paddy O’s proposal I’m in some trouble.
Going back to the original topic of the blog – I see a lot more of this kind of stuff happening. We’ve been verbally told 132 times (i started a tally after a while) over the past 2 1/2 years that if we don’t make AYP that we’re all gonna be canned. I teach history and math is why we didn’t make AYP. I own a house in town, my wife owns a small business. So on what planet is a students test scores that I have no control over a fair way to completely uproot and destroy a hard working American family’s life?
Ole Guy
September 30th, 2010
12:13 am
Thanks, Clayco Parent; I’ll interpret your remark in the most-flattering means possible. But, ya know, there’s another message to be garnered in this tragic event:
When I was a Scout Leader, many years ago, some of the older boys has developed a sort of superiority attitude toward the younger “Pre-Tenderfoot” kids. I felt that by simply talking with the boys, the message might be garbled in feelings of self-persecution. So I hung a large poster of a lion in his natural habitat, perched upon the high ground surveying his domain. An equally large sign hung over the lion with the warning…NEVER TAKE YOURSELF TOO SERIOUSLY.
As teachers, perhaps we develop those mental attributes of the lion. Basking in the knowledge…real or perceived…that we, as mentors, hold some sort of key without which civilization will cease to exist, when confronted with the reality that…DAMMIT TO HELL…these kids aren’t benefiting from that which I offer, the self-esteem mechanism goes tilt; we can’t deal with that. Added to the nonsensical pressures and expectations of NCLB, school chieftains, and the ever-present moronic parents, not to mention kids emboldened to behave on instinct completely devoid of any hint of discipline, this whole series of events may become more than one is prepared to accept. As in any endeavor, the first rule of thumb regarding survival and success is to maintain a thick skin. This may often be interpreted as a difficiency in caring, however, it is quite the opposite. There may be some…perhaps more than some, perhaps many…who, for whatever reason, do not feel this way. However, IT IS WHAT IT IS. If the kid(s) flunks, the kid flunks. If parents and administrators start looking at teacher with crossed eyes , teacher has to have the guts to say “Get the hell outa my face and let me do my job”. As it is, I suspect that the Georgia Teacher Corps, as a whole, is probably not in the best mental state, what with recent (random) firings, careers crushed like empty beer cans, and, of course, the ever-present parent/student/administrator onslaught of (for lack of better, more gentile words) kaa kaa (or dare I go with the S word?).
Have a good day, Parent!
Paddy O
September 30th, 2010
11:43 am
Michele B has a disconnect from reality – she is not being paid as a 190 day contract person – her salary, as a governmental employee compensates her as a 12 month employee – she has drunk the teacher association kool aid and does not make statements that have much credibility; the fact that her house is worth more than she owes is whose fault? the parents of her kids? (FYI: The fact she claims her statements are NOT whining indicate her statements do not carry a tremendous level of credibility – she is whining, without a doubt.) Her house value decrease should completely explain to her why she has not received a raise – her source of income is PROPERTY TAXPAYER based, as opposed to an engineer, accountant, executive whose source of funds for their income comes primarily from their own talents and convincing their customer base they are highly qualified at their job. It is a BIG difference, and one which at one time led to substantially lower government pay compared to private enterprise. The US is on the verge of flipping this paradigm, and as stated before, it is NOT sustainable. I would agree with Chris that SPED classes would not be held to the typical standards and, I still say the CRCT #ers would be a great and easy measurement of teachers with regular learning kids; the SPED kids would need some type of antecedent analysis – something many of the employees at the state BOE should be able to come up with. Also, I am not advocating the use of CRCT passing rates to set salary – that would be set normally, but, excellence would be rewarded, mediocrity corrected, and manure tossed out.
Paddy O
September 30th, 2010
11:44 am
Ole guy looks like he has some insomnia.
Ole Guy
September 30th, 2010
7:19 pm
Hey Paddy, your concern is most-appreciated. Being on the west coast for a few days, my comments may appear to be hatched three hours later than real time. At midnight, I was hammering a few micro brews…a good cure for insomnia! Ergo, I suspect this comment should appear to be written shortly after 1900/7 pm, at which time I intend to be “addressing”, once again, the insomnia issue.
Paddy O
September 30th, 2010
7:27 pm
yeah, the first comment I read showed 2 am something — enjoy the west coast – Monterey & Big Sur are remarkable! — Ever been to the Olympic Peninsula in Washington?
Paddy O
September 30th, 2010
7:34 pm
One more comment on the professional statement – I concur – good teachers are exceptional treasures – but, one element affecting salary – a professional engineer working in Atlanta can pick up, start his own business and if good, make a 5 figure income. What private work is available to professional teachers? Tudoring? Not a 5 figure income. This lack of high competitiveness from the private sector generally depresses most restricted to government employment positions. But, as a society, we value teachers – always have. The problem is many teachers have become very selfish & tunnel visioned – this country does not produce things like we did in the 70’s – that is they key to private wealth creation – without the production, private sector wealth decreases and the ability to pay good salaries to teachers & other government employees wanes – NAFTA must be repealed/amended and import tariffs implemented or we will soon be approaching 3rd world status – importing all of our needs – such as clothes, electronics, fuel oil, etc.
Paddy O
September 30th, 2010
7:35 pm
whoops, tutoring. thinking about John Tudor again.
Michelle B.
September 30th, 2010
9:14 pm
Patty-o, again realism and whining are two different things. I’m here to educate the uneducated. I don’t believe that you are living in the real world either. Teachers like other professionals have been impacted by this economic downfall. Teachers are compensated fairly for what they do and how many days they do it, which like I’ve said earlier (which was unacknowledged by yourself) end up working more that 190 eight hour days with a typical lunch break. So, I’m not sure how these FACTS have anything to do with post-modern feminism?
I do agree that “manure (should be) tossed out” especially on this blog. Yes, I too can purposely misquote and take out of context to make a point, like you’ve done for the last two days.
Ole Guy
October 1st, 2010
11:33 am
Michelle, as I read your comment, I picture Rocky squarin away for the big fight. I do not believe Paddy is attempting to rock your boat. And you need not justify teacher compensation; it is known, and very much appreciated, that the 190 day contract is but the start point (including lunch breaks) from which the typical teacher can expect to occupy their working hours.
I am not too sure, however, what your reference to the post-modern feminism has to do with this. Unless, of course, you feel some degree of guilt. You are what you are…a teacher; it is what it is…acceptable compensation for acceptable output…nothing more; nothing less. Why introduce the feminism song?
Paddy O
October 1st, 2010
5:25 pm
the realism is if you told teachers in the 70’s that they would earn $58,000 per year, far exceeding the median household income, they would have been overjoyed. I have not taken anything out of context – most of the statements support my arguments – I have spoken to other teacher who also hilariously assert they receive no paid holiday or vacation time. As I indicated, professional salaries paid by the government are impacted by portability – engineers, attorneys, human resource people, financial people, even those in the planning field have the ability to quit a job not paying well & most likely obtain one in the private sector with better pay, better healthy care, but most likely NOT better pensions, nor job security. It is accurate that teachers pay into the TRS, but quite inaccurate to say teachers do not receive SS benefits. One of the problems with the teaching field, the profession is not terribly portable, and thus economically acted upon to suppress wages – that and the fact the salaries are truncated by the ability of property taxes to foot the bill without becoming outrageous, as they are in NJ & other parts of the NE. GA teachers should compare their salaries to those around the nation – my understanding is they lead the southeast, and I also know are high than those for the City of Toledo, OH – who most likely has a higher cost of living. That would be a valuable comparison – to help determine if the salaries are out of proportion with the cost of living.
Educate Yourself
October 2nd, 2010
12:07 am
History: Georgia and Texas are the only states where the decision to participate in Social Security was made at the local level.
The Problem: At issue are two offset provisions, called the Government Pension Offset and Windfall Elimination Provision, which may reduce your Social Security payment under certain circumstances. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the Government Pension Offset alone reduces benefits for some 300,000 individuals by more than $3,600 a year.
You may be affected if, in the course of your career, (1) you work both in places that pay into Social Security and places that do not, or (2) you work in a Social Security environment and your spouse works in a non-Social Security environment or vice versa.
Find Out if You’re Affected: Only the Social Security Administration can tell you the effect that working in a non-Social Security school district will have on you personally. If you are working in such a place now or are thinking about it, contact the Social Security Administration to get answers about your individual situation.
Furlough Days
October 2nd, 2010
12:12 am
If as you say, Paddy O, I am paid for 245 days, then my furlough cuts should should be a lot less – they are currently cutting each day of pay at 190 day contract rate.
Michelle B.
October 2nd, 2010
10:36 am
@ Old Guy. The post-modern feminism was mentioned due to something earlier stated by Patty-o, blaming my “whininess” on post-modern feminism, which had no real foundation, nor support from research or facts as he commonly has stated. As far as compensation, I haven’t complained, I’ve just stated facts. And BTW middle school teachers do NOT get a lunch break in my county; we eat, teach, and discipline students at that time.
Paddy O
October 2nd, 2010
9:57 pm
Michele B – your reading comprehension is a little off – my reference to feminism was to indicate one of the reasons why students behaved as badly as they do now (primarily anti-authority) – radical idealist utopian movements – one of which is feminism – which while accomplishing a great deal for the female elite has genuinely done a disservice to those non-elite woman (about 60% of woman) – which has lead to the disintregation of the traditional child rearing process – married men & women conceiving deeply desired and loved – children.
Paddy O
October 2nd, 2010
9:59 pm
also Michele – its seems a badly arranged day that the teacher has no dedicated lunch time – is your school on the block system (4 classes a day, i believe)?
Michelle B.
October 3rd, 2010
12:40 pm
Oh Patty-o, so the need to a two income family is to blame for all the issues of schools? So basically women need to say at home and be bare foot and pregnant. Well maybe you need to back in time, my friend because I don’t see these economic trends changing any time soon. BTW, every middle school in my county regardless of type of schedule requires teachers to eat lunch with the kids.