In worrying about middle school girls showing too much “hide,” are we seeking out problems that don’t exist?
When I was a kid, I often tagged along with my cousin Nancy and her pal Peggy. Although they were five years older than me, they would sometimes indulge my hero worship. On one such occasion, I walked down the street with Nancy to pick up Peggy as the two of them were going to a junior high dance. (I was allowed to come over only to ooh and ahh over their ensembles) As the very tall and very slim Peggy walked out to her front porch in her dress, her dad stopped her, telling her that her dress was far too short and should be just above the knee.
Why, a petulant Peggy asked him, did he always complain about her skirt lengths and not those of her older sister Ellen, who was a lot shorter with a much rounder profile.
“For one thing, I can’t even tell where her knees begin,” her dad replied. “There’s a lot more of you showing.”
I thought about that exchange when my own very tall and slim 11-year-old came home from sixth grade and told me that the principal said her skirt was too short. When she left for school that morning, I hadn’t even considered that she was wearing a skirt in the regular sense as she wore it over leggings/skinny jeans that she already worn to school. She had also worn the leggings earlier with running shorts over them, a Pippi Longstocking look popular with high school girls in the neighborhood. And again, that outfit passed muster.
Despite the obvious inconsistencies — the leggings are OK by themselves or with shorts over them, but you can’t layer a skirt over them – my sixth grader and I both agreed that this was the rule and she would abide by it. But then tonight, she came down to show me a simple, straight-forward T-shirt that she planned to wear tomorrow. “Would the principal think this shirt was see-through,” she asked me.
I wanted to reply, “Only if he wore X-ray glasses,” but I told her that the shirt was fine and that I couldn’t see any danger of it violating the dress code.
Up until three weeks ago, I never had a single discussion with my 11-year-old about the appropriateness of what she was wearing to school that day. She picked her own clothes to wear with little fanfare.
Yet, in the transition to middle school, sixth graders are suddenly confronted with inordinate attention to dress codes and particularly to how girls dress. My newbie middle schooler went from never thinking about what she would wear to school to thinking about it every day.
I don’t like the message that you are what you wear and that an inch this way or that spells the difference between wonk and tart. A researcher on self-image once told me that American girls learn early in life that they are under surveillance 24 hours a day and that the world will make judgments on how they look and project its own biases and fears on them. My neighbor told me that when she went to school in south Georgia, the principal would warn, “Girl, you’re showing too much hide!”
I have gone into high achieving private schools and seen outfits on girls that would get them sent home in public schools. Did the clothing distract the other students? Not based on their scores. There is no evidence that dress codes improve student performance.
I recognize that children turn into adolescents quickly, but we rush the passage when we worry about whether a run-of-the-mill T-shirt crosses the line or whether 11-year-olds with SpongeBob Band-Aids on their knees from climbing trees are showing two inches of thigh or three.
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130 comments Add your comment
catlady
August 25th, 2010
7:02 am
Your daughter doesn’t want the others to think of her as “that kind of girl.” (at least, I don’t think so). I would defer to the principal’s judgement, as you did. He sees the full range of possibilities/troubles. Be glad they enforce some kind of rules. (I don’t get the problem with leggings under a skirt, myself) Our school has a few rules on the books–very basic– but rarely enforces them (the parents howl) so we have developing ladies coming to school with increasingly skimpy clothes on, such as spaggetti straps with bra straps showing. What are these parents thinking, to even BUY these clothes. And the girls love the attention and then start one-upping each other for the attention.
Unfortunately, we have a teacher who pushes the envelope in terms of clothes, hair, and makeup. I grind my teeth on that one. Then she wonders why the fifth grade boys become so aggressive. Save it for the bedroom, lady.
look closer
August 25th, 2010
7:06 am
I had the same thought when I saw a first day of school picture of a friend’s daughter. The 9 year old girl was wearing an age appropriate sleeveless summer blouse that had narrow straps. It struck me that at her expensive private school, that blouse was okay, but in my DeKalb elementary school it would be considered inappropriate. This is despite the fact that the air conditioning at the DeKalb school rarely works, while I’m pretty sure the private school is cool and comfortable.
Former Teacher
August 25th, 2010
7:11 am
I certainly agree with you on one level, but some middle school girls have been known to change clothes once they arrive at school. Would that skirt pass muster with no leggings? Also, if you were the parent of a middle school boy, you might feel differently about how girls dress. As a former middle school teacher, I can completely understand why many charter middle schools require uniforms. It is just less distracting all around.
Proud Black Man
August 25th, 2010
7:29 am
“Also, if you were the parent of a middle school boy, you might feel differently about how girls dress.”
Then teach your middle school boy to keep his comments and hands to himself! Sheesh! Next thing you know you will be blaming the rape victim.
granny godzilla
August 25th, 2010
7:33 am
keep making excuses ladies while you raise another crop of sluts
bootney farnsworth
August 25th, 2010
7:41 am
more pointless left of center tripe.
the point of school is learning, not showing off the wares.
my child is in the Gwinnett system – complete with dress code.
while its occasionally heavy handed, for the most part its more than
reasonable.
just like common sense (yes, I know)says some personal business should be left off facebook, the same applies about dress in public.
bootney farnsworth
August 25th, 2010
7:44 am
our daughters have all their lives to be sexualized and barter themselves physically. let them have a few years as girls.
Dr NO
August 25th, 2010
7:50 am
The kids who attend private schools are much more cultured and intelligent than their lackluster public school run of the mill dumbbells.
This being the case our private school children are able to behave in a more mature fashion when confronted with possible dress code infractions and should be given some leeway.
The public school illiterates need to be monitored for infractions, especially in APS, Dekalb/Fulton/Clayton school systems and upon discovery of said infraction should be forced to change. In this way we might limit teen pregnancy and keep eliminate future welfare queens and food stamp moms and baby-mamas.
bootney farnsworth
August 25th, 2010
7:51 am
@ catlady
I’ll never forget going to a parent/teacher meeting (yes, I actually attend those regularly)when my daughter was in 2nd grade.
the elementary school cheerleaders were outside “rehearsing” – a specifically choosen word. between the bare midriffs, pelvic thrusts,
camel toe causing shorts, ect it looked like strippers in training.
all that was missing was a DJ and a pole.
and with the beaming approval of the 30somethings watching.
uhoh
August 25th, 2010
7:54 am
I took my 9th grader to orientation last week, never seen so much “cleavage” in my life-kids and moms. If it had been like that when I was in school, I would have never gotten through it.
bootney farnsworth
August 25th, 2010
7:54 am
the reasons for strict enforcement are simple.
there are always gonna be some kids adn parents who push at
the boundaries as hard as possible.
bootney farnsworth
August 25th, 2010
8:01 am
truth is, this is a parental failing. nothing more, nothing less.
despite what they often say, teenagers -especially girls- are looking to us to provide them rules and structure. and yes, boundaries.
we’re their parents, not their friends. its time we start acting the part
bootney farnsworth
August 25th, 2010
8:03 am
@ uhoh,
you should see what I used to see in chruch.
Roswell Yellow Jacket
August 25th, 2010
8:12 am
@ uhoh…you must have been at RHS orientation, because I saw the same thing
RJ
August 25th, 2010
8:19 am
The reality is that some girls can get away with wearing leggings under a skirt because they are less developed, so it doesn’t look as “inappropriate”. However, I worked in a middle school where due to their ethnicity, many girls were more developed in their lower region (hips and butt). Now, the slimmer girls didn’t draw much attention, but those girls that had a developed derriere had to deal with more boys gawking at them and making comments. It’s best to have a blanket rule which states that certain clothing is not appropriate.
Dr NO
August 25th, 2010
8:19 am
This dress code issue/lack of morals can be traced back to a few culprits, those being MTV and RAP music. MTV tells your kids that its ok to do whatever, whenever and with whomever one wants. MTV is one of the worst things that couldve happened to this Country. Then there is RAP music which is full of nothing more than profanity, rudeness, crudeness, vulgarity etc. RAP music basically states to females all over that they are just beeatches, sluts, ho’s, hookers who should be supporting their inner city ghetto trash like the little wanna-be pimps etc.
As Gregg Alman once said…”Rap is short for Crap.”
PS…Parents, its YOUR responsiblity to insure your children behave properly and by not doing so you provide a Great Disservice to them and a possible jail cell for later on in life.
HS Teacher
August 25th, 2010
8:28 am
Short answer – no. Proper clothing is important. A girl already this year comes to school in a mini-skirt so short that you can see her panties, a top cut so low you can easily see her rather large chest, and of course the top has string straps.
Is this any way for her to dress? The school has very good AC so the heat is no excuse. What about the teenage boys with hormones racing? Is this helping them concentrate on learning?
There is nothing wrong with dressing to cover up. Students can still express their individual style.
Hey Teacher
August 25th, 2010
8:35 am
The leggings issue is complicated because we have girls who take them off once they get to school and out of the house leaving just the too-short skirt on for the day. I suspect that is why leggings alone are OK but not with a skirt because if you only have leggings on, they can’t be removed (NOT that your daughter is going to do that but plenty of girls do). We also have girls who wear tank tops with a sweater and take the sweater off the minute they walk in the door of the school.
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
8:41 am
Hey Teacher, And these are middle schoolers? My two sixth graders are still learning where the bathrooms are and how to navigate the lunch lines. (I am not sure why but the lines are so long at their school to buy lunch that they each tell me they only have about seven minutes to eat once they sit down and end up not finishing what they bought.)
I would think your clothing changers might be older kids as our school is strict on sixth graders going right to their homerooms once they get there and there are plenty of hall monitors/teachers directing morning traffic.
Maureen
Intowner
August 25th, 2010
8:42 am
I understand the need for a dress code, but what my daughter slogs along under gets to be silly – no hoodies being top of the list, because of the few boys who pulled their hoodies up and slept thru class, in middle school.
Easier to fix the clothes than the actual behaviour problem.
jg
August 25th, 2010
8:44 am
School uniforms in public schools – Separate boys and girls in middle school. That should solve a lot of problems.
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
8:45 am
@look closer, We basically have eliminated almost all my daughter’s tank tops and sleeveless shirts as the straps have to be three inches, which is not easy to find in kids’ clothing. (And we are still buying in the kids’ department.) My issue is that these same tops were fine nine weeks ago in 5th grade but are now taboo in sixth grade. I still think it sends a strange message to the kids about what we think they have become now that they began middle school — so hormone addled that the sight of a bit of shoulder is a risk.
Maureen
TechMom
August 25th, 2010
8:46 am
I’m all about the uniforms for both boys and girls. There are still going to be infractions (kids grow, skirts ‘become shorter’) but it’s a lot less work for teachers and administrators if they’re not having to constantly check clothing. Plus as a parent it’s easier- no needless mall shopping.
I still find the dress codes in public schools here less stringent than many other school districts. When I was in middle school in South Florida in the early 90s, we weren’t allowed to wear shorts. The school was all indoors and you had to dress out for PE so there was no reason for shorts in the classroom. I suppose some girls would wear skirts on occasion but for the most part, everyone wore pants. We also weren’t allowed spaghetti straps, tank tops, or open-toed shoes. Somehow we all survived.
Philosopher
August 25th, 2010
8:52 am
@jg:”School uniforms in public schools – Separate boys and girls in middle school. That should solve a lot of problems.” No- all it does it postpone the problems. It is our responsibility as adults to teach children how to dress appropriately (girls AND boys)and how to treat each other (boys AND girls) Uniformas and separating sexes are copout on our parts. Yes, it’s a tough job…but it’s our job to do.
Camille
August 25th, 2010
8:57 am
As a parent, if I buy clothes that are appropriate in the first place, then I don’t have to worry about whether or not what they are wearing to school is appropriate. My youngest is in kindergarten, in a charter school, and wears a uniform. So, there’s no issues there about appropriateness. My oldest is in 7th grade, at a public middle school. When we go shopping for clothes, he is allowed to select the type of clothes that he wants, within my parameters. All t-shirts/shirts have to pass my approval with regards to any designs/writing on them (I have no idea what is up with the skull & crossbone patterns on shirts these days). No jeans/shorts that are going to fall off his waist. And, yes, he does have to try them on in the store and let me see them.
With all that said, yes, your attire do convey a message to the public, whether we like it or not. As adults, we have to make sure that we make our kids realize that, even at a young age. I absolutely hate to see even elementary age girls with those short skirts on, because while you may think its cute then, it because less cute later.
You Asked
August 25th, 2010
9:00 am
If the deliberation is how mature or racy a girl should dress the mark is set pretty low. How about professional (or in the kids case appropriate for the classroom – looking like a serious student). We’re not talking burkhas or long dresses here.
I’m talking about a girl having a good self image and not having to worry if her thighs and breasts are showing. And it is important before they are sexually mature because the habits they form now will carry with them. They don’t suddenly stop wanting to push the envelope on skirt length and cleavage because they grow breasts and thighs. In fact they start experimenting to see what limits mom and dad will place on them even more when puberty and sets in.
tell it
August 25th, 2010
9:01 am
@Dr. No,
Your statement was very biased and prejudicial.Please in the future, try reframing from such stereotypes.
LeeH1
August 25th, 2010
9:07 am
If you fill the honey pot with honey, don’t complain if you attract flies.
Or hornets.
November
August 25th, 2010
9:08 am
Folks, face it…….most of these girls are……get ready now……ready………….exhibitionists. They watch these god awful shows that leave nothing to the imagination of the human body because of the way the girls on stage dress and think it would be cute to dress the same way. To all you mommies and daddies out there in the twilight zone, teach your children to dress appropriately. We’re heading back to 1960’s and the loveins if some sensibilities aren’t shown.
Lori
August 25th, 2010
9:08 am
If you are unsure about a particular outfit, then don’t wear it. It’s pretty simple. If you think a shirt is see-through, then why chance it. Just because something is cute and in fashion doesn’t mean you have to buy it for your child. I can’t understand parents who complain about the way their kids dress, when they are the ones funding the clothes. As for schools, they have to have rules to follow. Sure, sometimes they seem ridiculous (like the leggings under the skirt issue), but it is what it is. Why would a girl be allowed to wear leggings as pants anyway? Why would you want your daughter showing skin or wearing tight clothing? Sure, you may think they look cute, but some older boys may think they look something other than cute. Do you really want your 11 year old to begin exploring this new kind of attention from boys (or possibly even older men who are predators)? 11 years olds are children, they should dress like children, not harlots!
chanceman
August 25th, 2010
9:08 am
If you don’t like the rules at your local public school, feel free to homeschool or send them to private school and stop whining.
Philosopher
August 25th, 2010
9:09 am
Maureen- And the clothing industry doesn’t help at all! Just TRY finding a pair of jeans or capris that don’t have a rip or tear in them. But there are much bigger middle school issues that our daughters face. Like not being allowed to go to the bathroom. At my daughter’s school, kids are allowed no bathroom breaks. Locker breaks are ‘way too short to go to the locker AND to the bathroom, especially for a girl. They can have one hall pass a day for bathroom, or locker or other “reasonable” needs- If more than one pass is used, a written warning goes home for the parents to sign. This happened to one of her friends just yesterday. So my daughter refuses to use a bathroom pass…because after all, what if she were to suddenly start her period after she had used her one pass? Some kids really do want to follow rules and getting in trouble is a big deal and very embarrassing to them. Many days I have to take her somewhere to go to the bathroom before I can take her home. It’s unhealthy and dangerous and multiple discussions with authorities got me only a pacifying pile of malarky. I guess I’ll send them the bill when she gets a UTI.
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
9:15 am
Not all that long ago, a glimpse of a woman’s ankle was scandalous, then a glimpse of knee was considered risque. Today, kids on college campuses dress as if they were going to the beach and no heads are swiveling or cars crashing. I think we have to recognize that fashion has evolved. A poster mentioned a ban on open-toe shoes but we live in the age of the sports sandal. I think we have to be careful not to lock ourselves into our own experience. The sight of girls in shorts or short skirts on the UGA campus does not create any bedlam because these kids have grown up with that level of exposed skin. They are culturally acclimated to far briefer fashions that I was. I wore things that my mother never would have considered. My mother wore dresses that would have made her mother shudder.
My only point is that we are essentially telling young kids that they are now sexual beings because they crossed the street and entered middle school and they better cover up. I think we overdo it and contribute to their feeling that they are a breed apart and need containment because if they are let loose, they will run amok.
Maureen
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
9:17 am
@Philosopher, On your point about bathroom restrictions, see my comment above about this sense that these kids have to be contained and controlled above all else.
To all the folks saying that these kids are dressing provocatively in a deliberate way: These kids don’t even know what it means to be provocative. (And probably can’t spell it, either.)
Many of you are proving my point that we are putting adult motives and sexual agendas on very young kids.
There is a new study starting out of Temple on whether adolescence in America is more stressful than other nations because of something unique to this country. I think we will find that our adolescents have more problems because we expect more problems.
Maureen
Talmadge Hobbs
August 25th, 2010
9:33 am
As a guy, I will tell you, Mom, that guys are hugely visual. While I understood this on some level, it was only after reading “Every Man’s Battle” that I understood this to some depth. It was, and still is, my daughter’s primary clothing objective to look sexy, a look that is pushed on them early and persistently by nearly every aspect of media. Guys like this A LOT and not for the right reasons.
No, this isn’t blaming the rape victim. It is rearing a child, male AND female in the dangers of the choices we make.
It’s not about freedom of expression but about what we will reap as a result of those freedoms we exercise. The Law of Unintended Consequences really applies here.
When our children rush to be adults, we are not doing them a service. There’s a reason you don’t get lower insurance rates until you are 25. The mind is still developing well beyond our teen years. Good judgment isn’t something for which middle or high schoolers are famous.
Help her understand restraint and both you and she will look back with gratitude for your guidance.
teacher in waiting
August 25th, 2010
9:36 am
If the schools brought in compulsory school uniforms this would solve much of the time wasted on non-issues that they deal with on a daily basis. By having a blanket policy for uniforms it takes the guess work out of whether the skirt is the right length, the t-shirt is offensive, the rips in the jeans expose too much skin. It can help deal with students being ridiculed for not wearing the coolest or expensive clothing brands. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
God Bless the Teacher!
August 25th, 2010
9:52 am
Maureen, if we accept what the current/popular trend is in society (be it dress code or anything else) we will surely evolve into a nation of anarchy. Where would YOU draw the line on acceptable behaviors? We have dress code rules in school not to repress the fashion whims of adolescents. To be honest, I don’t care to look at students showing too much skin and crack, just like I don’t care to see adults dress similarly in public. Do you dress however you want when you go in to work? What would your boss say if you showed up in pajama bottoms and a shirt that’s three sizes too small? High school girls try to do this, and quite frankly I think they need to go back home and go to bed. There is an appropriate way to dress for various places we go. Teaching students how to make those distinctions is part of what we do in high school. High school is not all about academics (surprise!), but includes life skills that will transfer to wherever a student may go after high school. I’m thankful for middle schools that try to begin that process in 6th grade. It’ll end up being one less issue we have to deal with when the cherubs walk through our front doors in ninth grade (provided the behavior took root).
Teacher through and through
August 25th, 2010
9:56 am
Maureen, you are absolutely right about your child who was raised in your home. And you’re probably right about all her friends too. However, in a public school she will be with students from all backgrounds. Some develop very early (yes, puberty starts at a much earlier age for some) and some come from abusive backgrounds and come to school with very confused ideas about sexuality. A school has to develop rules for everybody. Middle school has the widest range of developing young people, and what is not necessary for your undeveloped sixth grader is vital for the 14-year-old 8th grader. (Yes, there are some.)
Tonya T.
August 25th, 2010
10:00 am
My son started middle school this year, and I was flabbergasted at Open House at the looks of these girls. Looking like miniature hookers! Not all, but enough for me to take notice. So much so in fact, I have decided to either homeschool or private-school the youngest two. Even with dress codes people take it too far.
Dr NO
August 25th, 2010
10:05 am
tell it
August 25th, 2010
9:01 am
Dont like it dont read it and just because one doesnt like it doesnt make it any less true.
Dr NO
August 25th, 2010
10:06 am
PS…get a job.
Teacher, Too
August 25th, 2010
10:10 am
In an age where middle schoolers are coordinating bathroom breaks to have sex, then yes, dress can and is a concern in middle schools. No, 6th graders may not know what the word “provocative” means, but that’s not stopping them from having sex acts at school.
I fully support the strict dress codes, and most emphatically support school uniforms. Students can find ways to express their personalities and creativity through other means besides dress (or they can express themselves through their clothing after school and on weekends). How about expressing personality through writing or art? Certainly through music? Maybe through their schoolwork and earming decent grades.
My point is that if students put as much effort into their school work as they put into their hair, make-up, and clothing, our students would certainly be much better off!
teacher&mom
August 25th, 2010
10:16 am
This is a good example of why 6th graders should still be attending an elementary school and not middle school. The dress code was probably written with 7th and 8th graders in mind and the fact that in a single year a girls’ physical development can changed considerably. While the outfit may look sweet and childish now, it may not look so sweet and childish by next spring/fall.
While it may not occur to your daughter or her friends that dressing a certain way is provocative, I can assure you there are a few 6th grade girls who know exactly what they are doing when they put on the tank top and super short skirts. Chances are they have an older sister or mom who also dresses this way. It is a shame that 11 and 12 year old girls are already trying to dress “sexy” and it seems that more and more each year show up looking like one of the Jersey Shore girls.
Rev. Jimmy Jack Bourbon
August 25th, 2010
10:19 am
The Mrs. Rev. Bourbon sure was cute in that mini skirt that she wore at Girard High School in the Spring of 1973. I was a first-year teacher and coach. I minded my business. Stayed out of trouble. Didn’t cross any line. But, in June of 1975, right after she graduated, that’s when she became the Mrs. Rev. Jimmy Jack Bourbon. She’s the First Lady of the Hosea Williams Memorial Church of World Peace & Reconciliation Beginning In Clayco. I have promoted and she has produced (by God’s grace) eighteen (yes, 18!) children, and she is still as hot as she was in that mini dress in the Spring of 1973! But, she ain’t off-limits no more! I do love me some Mrs. Rev. J. J. Bourbon! Now y’all have a good day on this blog; I’ve got to get back to making my rounds.
SE GA Teacher
August 25th, 2010
10:19 am
Most private schools, especially in the metro area, have uniforms, but I have seen some really short uniform skirts that would not have been allowed in public schools.
You don't Understand
August 25th, 2010
10:19 am
Maureen obviously you have never been to UGA. When I was there and the girls walked down the street in those outfits they had men stopping and whistling, hoping, and yelling. The main problem with your argument is that you compare these girls to college students. These girls aren’t that old and shouldn’t feel as though older eyes are looking at them in a sexual way. Parents and those students don’t often understand that these girls have developed from 5th to 6th grade. They are taller and curvier (if that is a word). These girls aren’t being contained but protected. I have a daughter and to think that an older man would look at her because I didn’t keep enough clothes on her would make me sick at my stomach. Why does evolved have to become slutty? We have evolved in our thinking for good things like civil rights but what you suggest is to allow these girls to evolve into sex objects. Let the mind evolve with understanding and cloth the students to keep from distracting everyone around them. You sound like one of the 8 is too late fools that needs to be checked out.
teacher&mom
August 25th, 2010
10:22 am
Maureen, you can’t blame the school for trying to put a halt to the revealing clothes. Which would you rather have….a principal who enforces the dress code or a very lax dress code? Which choice do you think will create more havoc? Which choice will create a safe learning environment that tries to eliminate as many distractions as possible? Which choice will help insulate as many students as possible for a society that is saturated in sexuality?
Ole Guy
August 25th, 2010
10:32 am
Now,atlast, I understand my Dad’s “strange cheers” while watching me butt heads at those hs games a coupla centuries ago!
Hey Teacher
August 25th, 2010
10:55 am
Maureen — I teach high school btw — we see more issues with the 9th graders than seniors with the legging issue. I actually caught a 9th grade girl changing in the bathroom earlier this week LOL.
For what it is worth, I’m sure that the middle school is trying to keep the 8th graders from wearing inappropriate clothing so they are strict on the not-yet-reached-puberty 6th graders. That leap to middle school is tough but if the middle school is strict. As far as lunch is concerned, I’m not surprised — our kids are lucky if they get 10 minutes by the time they make it through the line. I get 20 minutes by eating at my desk and that leaves me just enough time to run to the bathroom
mom2two
August 25th, 2010
11:02 am
At a private school I face the same dress codes. No more tank tops, even the wider ones, unless covered ALL DAY with a jacket or some other top. Even with leggings, skirts do have to be a certain length. It was explained to me that it had to do with the fact that some girls took the skirts so short with leggings that were too thin. What upsets my daughter is when one of the other girls breaks the dress code repeatively and doesnt get in trouble for it. My 11 yo is like yours, not developed yet, and very thin, so its hard to find things that fit around her waist that are long enough.
Some middle schools have uniforms and some have guidelines. One that I know of requires solid polo shirts only.
And We Laughed!
August 25th, 2010
11:02 am
Every morning on my way to work I pass a school bus stop at the end of my neighborhood. Two girls are always standing there, holding mirrors, applying lipstick and other make-up, and teasing up their hair – things that they obviously could not do at home with their parents watching.
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
11:07 am
@And we laughed, I didn’t think anyone teased hair any more except for the women in the B-52s. And the last time I saw their photos, they, too, had given up their teasing combs. Big hair is too much work.
Maureen
And We Laughed!
August 25th, 2010
11:08 am
They must think they’re Jersey Girls!
Donna Wright
August 25th, 2010
11:14 am
Parents of girls should consider dressing their girls from birth on up in a modest way. That way, you don’t have to have a transition in clothing choices when they reach a certain age. Its not hard to put cute clothes on a preschooler that don’t involve spaghetti straps or short shorts. As they grow up, you will periodically explain why clothing choices are as they are, but they don’t have to change the way they have always dressed just because they hit puberty or transfer to a different school.
Sister Bertrille
August 25th, 2010
11:18 am
Four Words: Catholic School-Girl Uniforms.
Pluto
August 25th, 2010
11:19 am
The continuing degradation of the culture we live never ceases to amaze me. I teach high school and marvel at the attire most female students select to wear to school. The administration has chosen not to enforce any dress code because it’s hard to distinguish between mom and daughters’ dress. It’s not unusual to see “butt cheeks” and “mucho cleavage” in the halls. I refuse to comment to students on what I think is appropriate dress because I suppose that it’s all relative to what they bring with them from home. Modesty is getting harder to find.
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
11:27 am
@And we laughed, I am a Jersey girl and still think teased hair ought to go the way of platform heels and purple eye shadow — Snookie and friends aside.
Maureen
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
11:29 am
@Sister, I wore them and hated them. I would not wish knee socks – which always fell –saddle shoes — which had to be polished — and polyester blouses – which were sweat machines — on any kids.
Maureen
Texas Pete
August 25th, 2010
11:33 am
1. School shouldn’t be a place to hold a fashion show. If one has to ask if clothing is appropriate then it’s at least close to the line.
2. I agree that some female uniforms at some private schools could be considered revealing as far as skirt length goes. However, the other point that dress in private school doesn’t seem to lead to lower performance compared to public school actually leads to a bigger picture discussion. When it comes to kids, it’s not any one particular type of outfit that is problematic. The problem is the game of one-upsmanship and going for attention and shock value. Without regulation, if a student wears something that gets attention one day another will undoubtedly try to top that in the near future. That is exactly why private schools and now some public schools have uniforms. The idea is to keep that fight for attention via dress at a minimum by having everyone wear roughly the same outfits. This keeps the fight for attention via prestige or visual skimpiness of the clothes at a minimum.
Also, let’s not totally thumb our noses at the notion that you dress for the occassion. There is something to be said for appropriate dress. Should girls be wearing skin tight or revealing clothing to school? Should boys be wearing sloppy “beaters” and have hats pulled down over their eyes in class?
School is for learning and general socializing is a valuable part of the learning experience but there are limits to where the socializing should lead. If parents don’t mind their younger daughters wearing makeup or mature clothing then perhaps that should be restricted to after school non-school related activities and weekend outtings? Same can be said for boys wearing whatever is not appropriate for male dress at school.
There is a time and place for everything.
Cammi317
August 25th, 2010
11:34 am
I have a middle school aged daughter and she and I often exchange looks when we see some of the girls waiting for the bus in the morning. She asked me on several occasions if I think their parents brought them those slutty clothes. She goes to private school so she is in uniform, but even if she were not it gives me great comfort to know that she has no desire to dress in such an inappropriate manner.
catlady
August 25th, 2010
11:39 am
Ms. Downey, I think you are a little naive. We have had instances in our small system of 6th grade girls giving oral sex in the restroom to the boys. Go and eat at your daughters’ school (not with them) and listen to what is discussed. 12 years ago I would eat with 5th graders, and they would discuss things like bra sizes–to the boys. These are middle and lower middle class class white kids doing this (if that matters). Or ride the bus in the afternoon.
Been there done that....
August 25th, 2010
11:39 am
Maureen, Your daughter probably looks fine in her outfit. But, after many years in middle school (1989-2006) I can tell you there are many, many who do not. There are overwight girls with clothes much to small, overdeveloped girls who dress to be sexy. Some sixth graders are popping out of their blouses, and yes sixth graders have sex in the restroom. The strict dress code is very necessary, I am sorry to say. It is better to be too strict.
catlady
August 25th, 2010
11:40 am
Whether you know the word “provocative”, you know when it gets what seems to be admiring male attention.
teacher man
August 25th, 2010
11:41 am
Since you are so smart on all things education related. You should go teach. That or stop writing these ridiculous blogs.
Been there done that....
August 25th, 2010
11:43 am
overweight
And We Laughed!
August 25th, 2010
11:49 am
Maureen – 12 years of NJ Catholic education here, too – starting with St. Michael’s parish school in Union, NJ then on to Union Catholic in Scotch Plains. Plaid uniforms for girls, button shirts and ties for boys. I’ll never forget the time in high school the assistant principal grabbed my tie when he was “correcting my behavior” and my clip-on tie came right off in his hand! He tried real hard not to show any emotion but started to smirk and just told me to get out of there.
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
11:52 am
@And we laughed, Then we were nearby. I went to St. Catherine’s in Elizabeth and Mother Seton High in Clark. And my cousin Nancy — mentioned in the post — lives in Union, a few blocks from the main drag. My brothers went to St. Benedicts and Roselle Catholic.
I used to be a regular at Jan’s ice cream in Union.
Philosopher
August 25th, 2010
11:53 am
Oh, hell- let’s just put them in burkas, keep them at home, and teach them how to be good little wifeys some day. NOT! Girls and boys both need to learn appropriate limits and behaviors and be held to them. As for the dress codes- they are always directed at not “disturbing” the boys and that’s just foolishness. It sends a message that girls must take responsibility for the poor, testosterone-driven boys who just can’t control themselves. Adolescent boys are disturbed by girls no matter WHAT they are wearing(or not). Boys have to learn to control their testosterone and girls need to be taught to dress appropriately (whatever way that may be decided by those raising them) and not to put themselves in danger. It’s a tough job but it has to be done. “Controlling” kids with uniforms is not the same as teaching them how to dress, it’s just easier for parents and teachers..it is a copout with no benefit to the kids. We spend WAY too much attention on attire and WAY too little on growing good, caring, smart kids. Even we adults can’t agree on appropriate attire…not even on what is appropriate to attend church in.
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
11:55 am
@PHilosopher, It may just be a handful of us on this blog today who agree, but I am with you. (And I have two boys and two girls.)
Maureen
catlady
August 25th, 2010
11:56 am
Both my daughters went to women’s colleges and they both said the clothes pressure was so much better (nonexistent)–and ALL the leadership positions were available to the women!
BTW, although I know the problems at can happen when kids get a bathroom break, I would have a lot of trouble in a place where bathroom access is as restricted as described above! And, as a teacher, I KNOW the excuses, the playing, the getting in trouble that open access bathrooms have. Do we assign a teacher JUSt to watch the bathrooms each period? Maybe give them bathroom duty instead of the few minutes of planning time we have?
catlady
August 25th, 2010
12:00 pm
Philosopher–I have two 5th grade boys already this year who keep their “hands in their pockets” most of the time! Geeze!
Been there done that....
August 25th, 2010
12:00 pm
In my school everyone had bathroom, hall duty between classes. But, I cannot imagine denying anyone the right to use the restroom…though I might document who and when and if I see a problem call the parent about health issues.
lwa
August 25th, 2010
12:01 pm
Dress Code:
1. Parents shouldn’t buy school clothes that are not acceptable.
2. Parents should keep the element of surprise in their back pocket to surprise kids at school or when they get off the bus.
3.Our HS passes out white lab coats when girls are in violation.
4. Rules should be the same for all and not depend on the size of the girl. If the skirt is suppose to be 3″ above the knee, then that should be the rule.
5. Sometimes kids can’t help the way they dress if we look at the parents.
BATHROOM:
If my daughter has to use the bathroom more than once a day, she will. If there is a problem with the number of times, I will then go and have her examined by the dr. The school will not play dr. with my kids. The next thing you know we will have uncessary UTI’s and kidney infections.
catlady
August 25th, 2010
12:02 pm
Last comment: Ms. Downey, read the book “Schoolgirls”. It will be an eye-opener, although it is a little dated.
catlady
August 25th, 2010
12:06 pm
lwa: I agree with you. We had a girl 2 years ago who requested to go to the bathroom every 10 minutes. The parents were up in arms (said the teacher lied) about it so the teacher had the girl sign in and out. Turns out she was spending 15 minutes at least out of every 50 minute period in the bathroom. When confronted about this, the parents were enraged that anyone was “treating their daughter this way” and “keeping tabs on her,” but why was she so far behind, they wanted to know? She’s driving the middle school nuts now.
vanilla
August 25th, 2010
12:09 pm
Big brother combined with puritanical christians will suck all the joy out of childhood…..
EnoughAlready
August 25th, 2010
12:16 pm
lwa
August 25th, 2010
12:01 pm
It’s sometimes very hard to find clothes that are school appropriate in stores where the “buyers” only purchase items for strip clubs. I’ve had to pull chains off jeans and shirts. This year I purchased leggins for skirts, because every stored sold mini skirts and didn’t have anything appropraite for a young tomboy who decided that skirts were finally okay for school.
And don’t get me started about the material printed on T-shirts for teenage girls.
Then there are the jeans that don’t cover up the entire bottom. I have had that problem finding jeans for myself and I don’t want anyone knowing what I wear under my jeans.
I shop at 15 to 20 different stores and it seemed they all purchase from the same suppliers.
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
12:16 pm
Folks, If there are sixth graders ducking out to have sex in the bathroom, they are a rarity:
-By age 15, only 13% of never-married teens have ever had sex. By the time they reach age 19, seven in 10 never-married teens have engaged in sexual intercourse.
-Most young people have sex for the first time at about age 17.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html
ATL
August 25th, 2010
12:17 pm
I glad i went from elementary to high school. i have 3 son’s all grown now, but when my oldest went to middle school, there was not a dress code, 4 girls already pregnant, i tell you the girls dress nasty and the boys pants hanging of there butt. Just sad. when my other two went to middle school sex, sex, sex……….I had to talk more and more everyday to keep them on a straight path it was hard.
Some parents would show up at programs and PTO dress just like there daugthers, back out, thongs showing,
stmouth out, bra strap showing and house shoes. WHAT I’M SAYING MOTHERS TEACH YOUR DAUGTHERS AND SONS HOW TO DRESS, TEACH YOUR DAUGTHERS AND SONS HOW TO DRESS FOR SUCESS.
MOTHERS STOP DRESSING LIKE YOU ARE IN THE CLUB 24/7. YOU CAN DRESS NICE AND STILL BE A MOTHER STOP BEING YOUR CHLID FRIEND AND BE THAT CHILD PARENT.
TEACH YOUR CHILDREN ABOUT SEX AND PREGNANCY, ENCOURGAGE THEM MORE, TALK TO THEM ABOUT EDUCATING THERE MINDS.
IT’S HARD WHEN YOU ARE AT SCHOOL TRYING TO STUDY AND EVERYTHING IS HANGING OUT AND NO ONE IS STUDYING.
TheSpaceBetween
August 25th, 2010
12:18 pm
I am a 9th grade teacher and everyday the halls are full of students that are dressed as if it is the weekend and they are going out to party with their friends. Leggings and skirts aside, I think the real issue here, especially in high school, is that if students are allowed to wear low-cut tops and clothing that shows “too much hide”, then what is their real focus at school? Is it to gain the knowledge they need to become socially responsible citizens? Or, are they simply vying for attention, whether it be negative from their teachers or positive from their peers?
In my opinion, the dress code is an extension of the work place. There are very few jobs that would allow an employee to step into work showing inches of cleavage, a thigh through ripped jeans, or leggings with a short(er) skirt. As adults, we understand that this type of apparel can taint your reputation. It gets new teachers and employees sent home in some cases. Our children don’t always understand the gravity of wearing the apparel stated above, they may just think they look cute. Children need to learn these differentiations and be able to choose from their closets what is “appropriate” for school based on an adults’ guidence. I am often appalled at the clothing that many middle schoolers are allowed to wear even out in public. Where have our core values gone?
Yes, these are children of which we are talking and we shouldn’t be too strict with enforcement. However, at some point kids need to learn that there is a time and place to wear certain outfits. I am not one to play the blame game but we are seriously letting our children down. A child’s, especially a girl’s, honor rides on how she is percieved by her peers. It can come down to one outfit, on one day, and all of it is tarnished. People are always looking, always judging, and always criticizing. Its just the nature of being human.
David S
August 25th, 2010
12:24 pm
When they start showing too much intelligence, then we will have a real problem on our hands.
catlady
August 25th, 2010
12:27 pm
Ms. Downey: those stats are not true where I live. I will read your link, but I wonder if they are self-reported or from health department records or what.
David S
August 25th, 2010
12:36 pm
Government schools are all about control and conformity. If you are not happy with that reality, get your kids the hell out. They will all be the better for your choice.
CCPS Parent
August 25th, 2010
12:39 pm
School uniforms are a must now-a-days! Unfortunately, many “parents” dress provacatively themselves and are therefore unable to be much of an example for their children. Clayton County made school uniforms mandatory for elementary school kids about about 3 or 4 years ago and they have now been mandatory for all grades for around 2 years. In a system that has been plagued with a myriad of issues, I have to commend them on taking this positive step. It takes away the worry about what’s appropriate and inappropriate for school and leaves us to focus on greater concerns.
The obvious choice
August 25th, 2010
12:42 pm
“Which would you rather have….a principal who enforces the dress code or a very lax dress code?”
I would rather a principal who enforces DISCIPLINE, and not the PSEUDO discipline that most dress codes are part of.
Dr NO
August 25th, 2010
12:44 pm
EnoughBSalready…why are you taking your children to shop where strippers purchase their clothes?
I find your story(s), as usual, very difficult to believe. Please stop the excuse making AND get a job.
Dr NO
August 25th, 2010
12:51 pm
What about plus size girls. Sometimes they have difficulty locating “proper” fitting attire. Just let me say this. “Fat girls need love too”.
J Freeman
August 25th, 2010
12:59 pm
Kids mature at a different rate, and in middle school and early high school the difference becomes more apparent. My sister is 13 and we are having this issue with clothes and make-up. She looks like a child, but some of her classmates are fully developed. A tank top on her looks like kids’ clothes but on another student it’s cleavage baring and revealing. The rules have to apply to all students, not just the ones who’ve hit puberty. Again, with the make-up. Many of the girls in her school wear it just fine but when she wears it she looks like a dolled up child bride because she still has that baby face. It’s not her fault, she’s just not up to speed with the girls with C cups.
PJ
August 25th, 2010
1:10 pm
I went to a Cobb County public middle school in the late 80s & we had a very conservative dress code – we weren’t allowed to wear shorts, all skirts had to hit below the knee and no sleeveless shirts. Though I don’t think it needs to be that severe (the no shorts rule was a bit much), I do agree with the fingertip/inch rules for skirts/shorts & think that a no sleeveless rule would still be appropriate. It is a way of teaching kids some rules for life about appropriateness of attire in certain situations. Professional people most often are expected to dress a certain way to go to work and these is no reason that can’t be a good life lesson provided in school. Many of these kids don’t have this modeled for them at home, so they don’t understand. I’ve had 2 interns with whom I’ve had to discuss proper workplace attire. I can’t say that the shorts I wear every day would meet the fingertip/inch rule (they are not short shorts, just normal shorts), but I wouldn’t wear them to meet with a client.
Warrior Woman
August 25th, 2010
1:11 pm
In general, I have found school dress codes to be on the lax side. However, if the leggings were OK by themselves or with shorts, I would have to ask the administration why they weren’t OK with a skirt.
nypeach
August 25th, 2010
1:14 pm
my daughter is very curvy and chesty. I thanked God for the dress code in middle school because it reinforced my rules for her. She often complained that her friends could wear Myley Cyrus clothes or Lizzie McGuire clothes but she couldn’t because the tank tops were too revealing or the skirts too short. She developed early and we had to be very careful with what she wore. Now that she’s in high school, she still (subconsciously) follows the strict guidelines from middle school, and we don’t have to fight about inappropriate outfits. I think it’s important for young girls to dress like young girls and to hide the goodies. Maureen, I totally disagree with you on this one. The dress code is great, the enforcers are wonderful, and yes, it is very much necessary. ON a side note, I work at a college and these girls come to school half naked. It is ridiculous what they will wear to class. I wish we had a dress code here, because most days I just want to scratch my own eyes out. Like another poster said, all they need is a DJ and a pole.
foomanchoo
August 25th, 2010
1:17 pm
So, Maureen, what you’re saying is that as long as the kids are seeing “x” amount of skin on a daily basis, they should be allowed to show “x” amount of skin at school????
You have CLEARLY never worked in a middle school, and you have already shown your negative bias toward your own child’s middle school in a previous column.
Maureen Downey
August 25th, 2010
1:34 pm
@foomanchoo, One correction: I have a bias against middle schools in general as I don’t think they work. As Mark Musick, former president of the Southern Regional Education Board, once told me: “We have had enough time in enough places to get middle school right, and yet I can’t tell you 10 places that really feel good about their middle schools.”
I think the model is flawed and we need to regroup.
Maureen
And yes, I am saying that we get culturally acclimated to more liberal fashion boundaries. Otherwise, I would not be sitting here in slacks, a short-sleeved top and sandals. I am not sure why folks are arguing that standards should not change. No women in my office are wearing corsets, ankle-length skirts or laced-up boots.
Sister Bertrille
August 25th, 2010
2:02 pm
So far this is all about the girls – I guess boys don’t dress provocatively? As in, “Is that a slide rule in your pocket protector or are you just glad to see me?”
God Bless the Teacher!
August 25th, 2010
2:20 pm
Maureen,
You’re from the north. In the south we still like a little modesty. Why aren’t you in your office wearing too short shorts, a halter top, and shower shoes? That’s what most school girls seem to want to wear. How much cleavage are you showing? That’s what teachers have to address every day to keep some of our female students from falling out all over the place.
Been there done that....
August 25th, 2010
2:23 pm
I agree middle schools do not work and I taught 6,7,&8th grade gor 17 years…I favor the old Dekalb method k-7 and 8-12..Worked for all of us. The community I now live in (another state) has mostly k-8 and 9-12 with 9th grade kept pretty separate from others. This works well.
lwa
August 25th, 2010
2:28 pm
@ enoughalready – I understand your pain.
My 10 y.o. is 5′ 2″ and wears a jr. size 7. (still in elementary school) I had to visit a lot of stores. A few t-shirts here, a few pants there. When we find something that works, I get it in all the same colors. However, you make a good point.
My 17 y.o. is 5′11″ so I have to say no to dresses that would pass b/c of her height. They look too short.
lwa
August 25th, 2010
2:34 pm
Well, I just passed the kids from Marist walking along Ashford-Dunwoody and boy, those uniform skirts were SHORT!! I mean SHORT!! About 6 inches above the knee, at least.
So my take away…… private school, with a uniform, and oh yes, Christian does not solve the problem. I did see one girl at Rita’s and her skirt looked long compared to the others and it was just at her knee.
Just a mom
August 25th, 2010
3:21 pm
@lwa – they’re skorts, not skirts so they actually are made a little shorter because they do have something underneath them. That said, the kids tend to roll them (still) once off campus. But as mentioned earlier, academics aren’t suffering.
I do agree with Maureen about our expectations of middle schoolers. We’re sending a message and teaching many of them that they’re going to be disruptive and provacative so they just follow along then. We have lost the innocence, and we’ve lost the ability to use judgement, which is sad.
Dekalb Mom
August 25th, 2010
4:13 pm
I am lucky to live in a Dekalb district where the elementary school has a uniform dress code and enforces it…the principal is big on “tuck and belt”. Unfortunately, the middle school ditches the uniform when the kids need it the most! I have a 5th grade boy and 8th grade girl. While my 8th grader dresses very conservatively (mostly jeans and t-shirts) she did get stopped by every 7th grade teacher last year the one time she wore a skort with leggings under it. She is very tall (5′7″) and thin and the skirt just looked like there was no way it would be long enough – it was, but barely. I really wish they had a uniform dress code in middle school.
Kate
August 25th, 2010
5:31 pm
I went to a private school with a strict dress code (dresses for girls, dress shirts and pants for boys-no jeans or shorts). In first grade, when I was 6 years old, we went on a field trip to a local dairy farm (exciting stuff). Since it was hot outside and we would be spending the majority of the day outdoors, it was decided, after A LOT of debate, that the boys would be allowed to wear shorts and the girls could wear “cool-otts” (I guess that’s how you spell it) on the day of the field trip. I will never forget the letter the principal sent home to all the girl’s parents giving specific instructions and measurements regarding this garment. Our parents were to make sure that our underwear was not visible through the fabric, did not come up more than one inch above our knee while standing or 2 inches while bent over. The letter also contained a dire warning that a ruler would be used to measure our cool-otts before we would be allowed to go on the field trip and if we didn’t pass inspection, we would not only not be allowed to participate, we would be sent home. I will also never forget my mother crumpling up the letter, calling the prinicipal a dirty old man, then asking “what the heck is a cool-ott?” She and I still laugh about it!
Now granted, this was the early 1980s, but I’ve got plenty of friends with kids in private school who’ve encountered the same nonsense.
majii
August 25th, 2010
5:57 pm
The school dress codes I’ve read about in these posts aren’t too difficult to follow. As one poster observed, following rules via the dress code prepares students for the way things are done in the wider world, especially the workplace.
I attended, and graduated from, an all girls high school in Macon, GA in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Our dress code prohibited the wearing of pants for 2 of my 3 years in the school (high school began in 10th grade in this system.) We were finally allowed to wear pantsuits in my senior year. No separate pants and blouse combinations were allowed. The mandatory length for dresses was below the knee. This was the dress code at quite a few public schools in my area in the 1960s and 1970s. Following it didn’t kill any of us, and most of us went on to have very successful careers. As a retired teacher high school teacher, I definitely see the value of a school dress code.
Philosopher
August 25th, 2010
6:13 pm
I fought very hard for the right not to have to wear dresses to school.I fight uniforms with the same forocity- While it may be difficult, it is my responsibility to fight those fights and set the examples for my kids…not to control them. My kids will tell you that I decided many years ago that teachers would be truly happy if we would put our kids in strait jackets and velcro shoes, place a bladder catheter,ducttape their mouths, restrain them in a wheel chair and roll them in and out of school every day…right on time!
ScienceTeacher671
August 25th, 2010
7:01 pm
The trouble is, some 6th graders are still little girls playing with dolls, while others look a lot like grown women, and sadly, some are sexually active already. A few years ago, we had a pregnant 6th grader, and I’ve had a couple of 9th graders who already had a child, or in one case, children.
And how about 11 year old “Jessi Slaughter”?
Philosopher
August 25th, 2010
7:19 pm
Well,teachers do it all the time, but it is not OK to punish the whole group (all the time)for the infractions of a few, or to judge all parents against the lousy ones. Sometimes, the good guys ought to be allowed some freedom. Those sexually active kids are going to be sexually active even if you dress them in a uniform.
Mom of 4
August 25th, 2010
10:03 pm
After reading the comments about sex in middle schools, I wanted to add my 2 cents about what goes on where I work. From what I see, no, the majority of middle schoolers are not sexually active. However, there are quite a few that are. We have only been in school a few weeks and have had waaaaay too many issues with “oral” (which kids these days don’t really consider to be “sex”). This is the case from 6th all the way up to 8th. We are also having issues with girl-on-girl starting in 6th grade. Personal beliefs aside, this can be an issue because girls share bathroom facilities, etc.
While very little of the action seems to be happening at school (although some most definitely does!), we tend to find out or become involved when it reaches the “drama” stage (or the cellphone photo stage, which happens ALL THE TIME!). For example, “he broke up with me, and I don’t understand why because I (fill in blank) for him yesterday”. In the 6th grade, people!! Why, just last week I had 2 girls “dating” one another, only to have a huge spat when one decided that she no longer wanted to go with the other girl, now she liked a boy. Then the other girl decideed to also like the boy, and then major drama ensued when the boy went with the one girl over the other.
I can honestly say that we are a Title 1 school, low SES, etc. Why do I mention this? Because although this can happen anywhere, it does seem to be more prevalent at younger ages in schools with these types of populations. My own children previously attended a middle to upper middle class middle school in another county, and I have several teacher friends at both High and Low SES schools, and there definitely seems to be a difference in the prevalence of this type of behavior in middle school based on what type of school you are in. So I can see why some people do not believe that these types of things are common in middle school, and why dress codes don’t need to be so strict. But, I agree with the previous poster. Spend real time in your child’s middle school, because most things that go on each day would turn the heads of even moderately conservative parents. Furthermore, middle school is most definitely NOT college, or even high school. We have the most interesting mix of advanced physical maturity combined with (for many students) an almost complete inability to make sensical decisions. We have boys who are just starting to mature and who are inexperienced in dealing with their hormones combined with girls with breasts hanging out and huge holes in their pants all the way up to never-never land. You try trying to make teaching polynomials interesting enough to compete with that!
BTW, I also agree that the concept doesn’t work. Speaking from the perspective of a parent of girls, I sometimes wonder how many of these students’ parents really know what their kids are up to when they are at school.
another comment
August 25th, 2010
10:22 pm
We really need uniforms. My kids loved their uniforms in Catholic Schools, I do wish I could still afford to send them to Catholic School. Yes the uniforms are shorter. They allow the girls to wear skorts as a Summer uniform until October, and After April. But even the Jumper and Skirt uniform in Catholic school are 2″ above the knee. The girls love the saddle shoes. We only ended up spending $300 a year maximum on uniforms and I had 5 uniforms for each girl, because I am a lazy washer, so it could be less. My oldest didn’t grow much after 6th so she wore the same uniform from 6-8th all for $300, what a savings, only $50 a year for shoes and socks.
The Cobb County high School she goes to now has a ridiculous dress code. Dress and shorts must be down past the knee. Absolutely absurd, but the hispanic girls get around this by wearing tight ass jeans that show everything and spagetti straps. My daughter got yelled at on the first day wearing a cute coutoure skirt that was 2″ above her knee. The black boys all have jeans that they drop and show their under wear disqusting. These boys get away with it because they wear a belt and just pull them up when they see and administrator. They should just have uniforms, in Public Schools it is alot cheaper, and cuter.
Last night when I went to the Open House some of the parents showed the inapproprate dress, including the leggings and size tripple ZZ stripper boobs. Then there was School Board Member Holli Cash dressed in her to tight black pants that looked like they were thrift store finds too. So when your School Board Member can’t look like a professional either it is sad, especially when she is running for office.
ScienceTeacher671
August 25th, 2010
10:32 pm
Once we had a parent show up for a conference wearing Daisy Dukes over a bikini bathing suit with a loosely crocheted “coverup” on top. She also wore flip flops.
Then there was the parent who came in jeans and a tshirt with a very risque picture on it….
another comment
August 25th, 2010
11:29 pm
We have a Cobb County Board Member wearing too tight pants and looking ridiculous at Open House. Yes, that was Holli Cash who is still got a November fight for her office. She even gets up to make a presentation to the Principal. I guess she thought she would fit in with all the trash that attends the school.
Dr. John Trotter
August 26th, 2010
1:20 am
Maureen: I agree that the middle school concept is flawed. I have been against the middle school concept from the Jump Street and have openly spoken against it. But, the middle schools flourished in Georgia in the mid-1980s when the QBE legislation bribed school systems to switch to the middle school system. This was suppose to be some type of panacea, but it was another failed “savior” for our schools.
another APS teacher
August 26th, 2010
7:59 am
“The kids who attend private schools are much more cultured and intelligent than their lackluster public school run of the mill dumbbells.
This being the case our private school children are able to behave in a more mature fashion when confronted with possible dress code infractions and should be given some leeway.
The public school illiterates need to be monitored for infractions, especially in APS, Dekalb/Fulton/Clayton school systems and upon discovery of said infraction should be forced to change. In this way we might limit teen pregnancy and keep eliminate future welfare queens and food stamp moms and baby-mamas.”
Actually private schools are afraid of losing parent tuition money…
Middle grade students are sexual creatures. That’s what puberty is all about, sexualizing the body to ready it for procreation. even when boys are taught to keep their mouths shut and their hands off of the girls, there is no way to train a 13 year old to not have an involuntary erection.
I don’t let my girls show cleavage. And they all want to. And I don’t care if their mother’s purchased their clothes. My classroom is a “No Titty Zone”. I’m not showing mine. You can’t show yours either. Ditto bootie shorts, short skirts, too tight clothes or sagging pants.
Period.
Fericita
August 26th, 2010
8:03 am
Philosopher – punishing many for the offenses of a few is exactly what’s going on with dress codes, and it’s exactly what’s going on with the push for merit pay. Sure, there are a handful of teachers who are terrible. But instead of dealing with the individual teachers, we make blanket statements of teacher accountability and want to rework how we pay teachers. Instead of dealing logically with the individual student clothing offenses, we make blanket rules that don’t make sense in a “zero tolerance” enforcement.
Elizabeth
August 26th, 2010
9:13 am
Oh, please. What is right in elementrary school is not appropriate in middle school because older students ( boys especially) are present. When I taught 6th grade the hardest thing parents had to understand was that their kids were no longer elementary school babies. Expectations about everything ( including appropriate dress) change and grow more stringent as we get older. This subject should not even be contested by parents. The world of work demands a cetain type of dress and kids need to learn that early, not late. This is just another example of parents who can’t discipline their little darlings and want to give them everything they ask for. Rightly or wrongly we are judged by how we dress and how others see us. Present yourself as inappropriately dressed and you will be judged on that basis. Learning to follow rules of the wopkplace and school is a part of growing up top be a responsible adult. Teach your kids other wise and they will have trouble when it comes time for them to conform to dress code rules and other rules.
Ole Guy
August 26th, 2010
10:35 am
When I get on that train to the airport, a battalion of kids, bound for whatever private school that is one stop prior to ATL, always seem to get on the same car in which I’m riding. They all seem to be from a broad swath of grade levels and, of course, they all wear a “uniform” of sorts. I don’t know if those unis have been “modified”, in terms of skirt lengths, but they’re definitely not…in the Ole Guy’s observations…in keeping with the concept of concervative school wear. What becomes increasingly amazing is the fact that the school’s leadership appears to be accepting of this uniform.
In viewing my hs yearbooks from the prehistoric era, skirt lengths appeared to be a whole lot closer to terra firma. While this did not seem to place a damper on the “HEin and SHEin”, somehow, dress codes seemed to be accepted as the norm…and this was at a sleepy ole public hs in Lower Alabama!
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
Laurie
August 27th, 2010
10:11 am
“I don’t like the message that you are what you wear and that an inch this way or that spells the difference between wonk and tart. A researcher on self-image once told me that American girls learn early in life that they are under surveillance 24 hours a day and that the world will make judgments on how they look and project its own biases and fears on them.”
Fantastic post, Maureen. I read all of these responsive posts, especially the ones that seem to blame teenage pregnancy and rape on the way girls dress, and just think: Q.E.D.
Laurie
August 27th, 2010
10:18 am
Oh, and for those who justify the “no skirts over leggings, even though the leggings themselves are acceptable” rule (how Lewis Carroll!) by saying that the kids might go in the bathroom and take the leggings off … um, assuming that they are allowed to go to the bathroom at all, couldn’t they just bring a skirt with them, take the leggings off, and put the skirt on? And if the skirt by itself violates a rule, couldn’t the school just punish the girls who take the leggings off, rather than the ones who keep them on?
Maureen Downey
August 27th, 2010
10:42 am
@Laurie, Thanks. I was surprised to see some of these responses as they suggest to me that the attitudes toward women haven’t actually changed much in 50 years.
Maureen
Ole Guy
August 27th, 2010
5:38 pm
Maureen, I do not mean to nit pick your response, however, I believe the attitudes, unchanged as they seem to have been, are not necessarily restricted toward women but toward anyone within the educational realm. Inasmuch as we seem to be dragging the bottom in terms of educational achievement and, more importantly, educational competitiveness on the global arena, the attitudes expressed, I feel, are more in line with what’s best in order to achieve a semblence of our global eminence of an era long past.
Whether it’s students of the female persuasion wearing appropriate attire in the classroom, or the guys steering clear of the “butt crack” style of clothing, something…ANYTHING…needs to be pursued if it’s in the name of educational improvements.
ben
August 28th, 2010
12:53 pm
“I have gone into high achieving private schools and seen outfits on girls that would get them sent home in public schools. Did the clothing distract the other students? Not based on their scores.”
I’m sure the weekend binge drinking and drug use doesn’t affect their test scores either, but your absurd reductionist reasoning would suggest that those behaviors are therefore tolerable.
By the way, Paideia’s CRCT scores didn’t appear in the AJC this year. Wonder why?
Maureen Downey
August 28th, 2010
1:06 pm
@Ben, Because private schools don’t take the CRCT. And because private schools are under no obligation to share their scores on any test with the public.
ben
August 28th, 2010
2:22 pm
Of course, you are correct. Which prompted my question about “their scores” which you didn’t specify. When discussing public middle schools in Georgia, CRCT would probably be generally agreed on as the test scores most people refer to. So when reading the comparison to private schools where CRCT is not taken, I was left to wonder which scores you were citing in your anecdote, or the age of the children you were observing.
I am curious if any districts keep up with numbers of students that are sent home for dress code violations as opposed to being asked to put on a belt, turn a shirt inside out, or change into something the school has on site?
Cissy
August 28th, 2010
7:45 pm
Maureen, you are probably right; our society’s ideas about the way girls dress probably hasn’t changed much in the past 50 years… but let’s face it, most of the commercial messages are directed at them, not the guys. Even now, girls are expected to have to attract the guys, not the other way round. And so some pretty awful ideas about what’s OK to wear get published–remember Versace’s comment that he was proud to have been a big factor in getting upper-class women to dress like hookers? (For the mothers-of-little-girls version of this problem, see that great book “Stop Dressing Your Six-Year-Old Like a Skank,” written by a newspaper columnist from NC, in which she laments the difficulty of finding age-appropriate clothes in department stores.)
Our son’s private school had to send home a long memo this summer explaining that they would be STRICTLY ENFORCING the dress code for girls….which had, if the girls I saw last year walking into school were representative, gotten a little out of hand. (The boys all wear the same thing…. shorts/ pants/ polo shirts.) But this is not a new problem: remember that series of articles the Wall Street Journal published last year about women wearing inappropriate clothes to the office or to office functions, and the probems it created with clients and co-workers? I know you think that letting girls dress as they please is evolution, not devolution, but maybe you should reconsider the logical consequences of that belief. Like it or not, a lot of people are still much more, um, un-evolved in their ideas about girls’ clothing; and do we teach our girls about them and help them protect themselves from censure and worse; or do we ignore them and hope they will never have an effect on our girls’ lives?
Laurie
August 28th, 2010
9:33 pm
We’ll know that we’ve “evolved”, in this sense, when the words “slut” and “skank” (or at at least, these words *as derogatively applied uniquely to females*) are not acceptable, no more acceptable than the “n” word.
At this point, on a board like this – apparently we’re not even close.
Maureen Downey
August 29th, 2010
8:53 am
@Ben, I meant the scores that we do know about based on college admissions that these schools enjoy, which would be SAT, ACT, AP and SAT II etc.
I don’t believe dress code violations are maintained as they are not a state issue, but entirely local.
Pippi
September 1st, 2010
1:44 pm
Modest clothing is out there; you just have to damand it from the retailers. Not all of us are enthralled with the Paris Hilton “look.”
Natasha
September 1st, 2010
3:32 pm
No, I don’t think it’s looking for a problem where none exists. Everyone, male and female alike, old and young, needs to put on some decent clothes that fit. I am equally tired of seeing girls looking like video hoes and boys looking like escaped convicts. And it has nothing to do with whether or not it is appropriate for school. It is a question of appropriate period. Too tight, too short, too baggy, too loose, all wrong. No one should be running around everyday looking like they belong on Fulton Street or Stewart Avenue.
Tuckergirl
September 1st, 2010
3:32 pm
I feel sorry for today’s girls because they are being flooded with conflicting messages. But the worst I see are the mothers trying to dress too young. That’s where I think problems start. I used to pick up my niece at her middle school and I can tell you, the mothers coming in often dressed in skimpier, trashier clothes than any of the kids. No wonder these girls are mixed up. Their mothers are trying to capture their youth again and it is long gone.
Even in my own adult Sunday School class, the women often wear mini skirts or short short dresses. I am not a prude and I understand wanting to be trendy. But frankly, I don’t want to see up the side of your skirt during Bible study. And I am a woman myself, so it’s not a male/testosterone issue.
Natasha
September 1st, 2010
3:33 pm
I meant Rice Street or Stewart Avenue.
Daniel
September 1st, 2010
3:41 pm
As a father of two daughters and a pediatrician, I have witnessed an increase in general aggressiveness and sexualization of girls even over the last 8-10 years. Young girls are preyed upon through media, “fashion”, and music to be the inguene that it distorts their image of themselves. Having stricter dress codes in middle school is very simple logic. The fact that you can’t understand that Maureen is disturbing. You do know that 6th graders are different from 4th graders and freshman and so on??? We do not protect young girls in this society and hurts them. The fact that you defend the clothing because it represents a change in fashion or “views of women” in modern society is sad bordering on dangerous. I would hope in the future you actually consider the issues involved and have a higher expectation of the readership to understand simple logic in the future.
Simply an embarrasment that you published this.
Maureen Downey
September 1st, 2010
4:40 pm
@Daniel, I don’t think kids change dramatically when the cross the street from the fifth grade to the sixth. I was talking to a middle school teacher about this the other day and she was lamenting all the time she has to spend correcting dress code violations, including three-inch straps on tank tops, for 11-year-olds. (She also noted that all the attention is heaped on what girls wear as if they are the source of all the problems.)
These shirts from the kids department in Target were not a problem 12 weeks ago in 5th grade and yet now they are so worrisome/provocative that kids can be sent home for wearing them?
I think the change in attitude toward the kids and how they dress actually spurs problems rather than prevents them. We are the ones foisting adult perspectives on kids.
Maureen