A gulf between teachers and the public on what works best in our schools, including merit pay and end to tenure
A new survey shows a gulf between the broader public and teachers on the best ways to improve America’s schools. (It is a gulf we often see here on the blog between parent posters and teachers.)
The fourth annual survey by Harvard’s Program on Education Policy and Governance and Education Next found that while the public supports merit pay for teachers, teachers strongly oppose it. (And we clearly see that on the blog.)
Conversely, while the public opposes teacher tenure, teachers favor it. And teachers are more opposed to the federal Race to the Top program, from which Georgia just won $400 million yesterday.
As usual, Americans think that public schools are bad, except their own.
Among the noteworthy findings:
- Only 18 percent of survey respondents give public schools an “A” or a “B.” More than one-quarter of respondents give the nation’s schools a “D” or an “F.” Only 28 percent of teachers give the nation’s schools an “A” or a “B,” while 55 percent give them a “C” and 17 percent a “D” or “F.”
- The grades improve, however, when people are asked about their own schools. About 65 percent give their local elementary school the highest grades; 55 percent do so for their local middle school. Only 6 percent assign their local elementary school a “D” or and “F,” while 12 percent assign those low grades to their local middle school.
- Support for basing a teacher’s salary, in part, on student academic progress on state tests rose, increasing from 44 percent in 2007 to 49 percent in 2010, while opposition declined from 32 to 25 percent. However, only 24 percent of teachers support the idea.
-Those who oppose teacher tenure outnumber those who support it by a margin of almost 2:1. Forty-seven percent oppose the idea, while 25 percent favor it. But among teachers, 48 percent favor tenure.
-Thirty-two percent of Americans think Race to the Top is necessary to improve education, but 22 percent believe it is an intrusion into local government. However, 46 percent of those polled had no opinion. Teachers oppose RttT by a 2:1 margin, with only 22 percent saying they like the program.
-There was a surge in support for virtual schooling. Between 2009 and 2010, the percentage in favor of allowing high school students to take an online course increased from 42 percent to 52 percent, while opposition fell from 29 percent to 23 percent.
-Support for charter schools remained essentially unchanged between 2008 and 2010 —rising from 42 percent to 44 percent, while opposition increased from 16 to 19 percent. The remaining group—36 percent— remained neutral. Among teachers, charter support fell from 47 percent to 39 percent.
- Support for school vouchers has fallen. While 45 percent of the American public supported vouchers in 2007, only 31 percent did so in 2010.
-Fifty-eight percent of the public thought states should toughen their testing and standards, but only 33 percent of teachers felt that way.
-More Americans (62 percent) believe Congress should continue testing requirements in math and reading than oppose the idea (12 percent), with 26 percent taking a neutral position. But only 50 percent of teachers supported maintaining these requirements.
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126 comments Add your comment
Devil's Advocate
August 26th, 2010
6:34 am
Misogynist? Huh? Do you even know what that word means? Because that is the last thing I am. And from your last post SWF, you come across as having multiple personality disorder. You can’t have it both ways with your love/hate of all thinngs education.
@another comment – Just ccome out and say what you really feel about black people, the transparency from one of you sad racists would be refreshing.
Elizabeth
August 26th, 2010
9:02 am
Define” highly motivated” and “dynamic”.To me this means teachers who do all of the cutsie group projects, spoonfeed the kids by giving them “fun” activities, and the teachers who can make the students “like ” them. The kids and parents may be happy now but what about later? Thank God most of my teaching career came before merit pay because I was NOT a congenial playground teacher. I taught a subject–Language Arts_-and I expected my students to read the book for themselves rather than reading it out loud to me or each other; write the essay once a week by themselves in class instead of at home where their parents could do it for them; think and analyse literature rather than doing a “Guided Reading worksheet” in which the questions are given IN ORDER and never require thought– just regurgitation of information. For that I was vilified by students and parents until my 9th graders reached 10 th grade and my 8th graders reached 9th grade. Then the parents and students came back in droves to thank me for how well I had prepared them for the next grade. My wise first principal told me that I was the kind of teacher that was never appreciated by parents, students or colleagues( who thought I was was mean) until years after I had taught them. So I would get fired today for not being a sweet easy teacher who did not teach in a “motivating ” way. Yet kids I taught the passed the CRCT after failing it every other year they were in school. Several of my students made perfect scores on the 8th and 11th grade writing assessments. In general, my students did well on the SAT and in college largely because of the rigor I demanded in my classroom. Rigor was not always fun or cutsie, but I did my job and did it well. I will never be a teacher of the month or year because I am unpopular with the ones who make those decisons. But in the end, a student who hated my class said it all when she told her mother ( who told me) ” I miss Mrs. _____. She really taught me something”. But if were judged today on my teaching style, I would fail miserably. I am not a salesperson or a performer. I AM A TEACHER.
Another view
August 26th, 2010
9:12 am
Thank you Elizabeth.
Devil's Advocate
August 26th, 2010
11:57 am
Elizabeth – that is just silly, pity-me, baseless speculation.
It sounds like you would always be a teacher that is highly valued and who would make the grade for merit pay easily. Stop feeling so sorry for yourself.
LLL
August 26th, 2010
1:06 pm
I think there are a lot of educators who are holding on to this illusion that students will appreciate what they did after they leave their classrooms. Unfortunately, it is just an illusion.
It is also amazing to see the contrast between those teachers who complain about not being able to make any difference because their students come from the home with no parental support and a teacher who takes credit of all the success of her students after just taking one (or maybe two) class with her…
Anna
August 26th, 2010
2:16 pm
Teachers, if not student performance, on what criteria should you be judged? I personally do not think you should be judged on student performance ONLY because the “student performance” is a result of moronic standardized tests created by morons at the state level who are handing $millions$ to test-creating companies. I do think how well your students do should be part of your success criteria, but I’m thinking more of something like “how far did this student make it this year” instead of “did they make it to a random benchmark or pass/fail an irrelevant test”. What else? Surely you don’t want this decision brought down entirely to the local level. Aren’t there as many tyrannical, unmotivated, or just plain stupid principals as there are county and state administrators? I know the principal at our school is incomprehensibly lazy. As a teacher, there is no way I would want the buck to stop with her. What completely objective data is acceptable to teachers as a measuring stick?
LLL
August 26th, 2010
2:24 pm
@ Anna,
So, how do you propose to measure “how far did this student make it this year” without pre- and post-testing the students?
Anna
August 26th, 2010
3:16 pm
@LLL. I thought I made it clear I wasn’t against measuring the students, but I don’t think the tests they are using today are any good. Even the teachers on this blog hate the tests – typos, content, disorganization, and not grade-level appropriate for the youngest ones. Besides, they’re not going to take ITBS or CRCT (which cannot be compared to each other) twice a year. Yes, students should be tested, and teachers should be graded based on their students, but neither should be a blanket across all schools, grades, or even classes, given the differentiation that exists among students in all of those environments. I am asking the teachers what kind of tests they think would be good (b/c, again, you can’t give national standardized tests twice a year) to measure students and then also what other criteria they think their job performance should be based on.
South Ga Teacher180
August 26th, 2010
4:19 pm
ScienceTeacher671
August 25th, 2010
7:25 pm
We’ve been back at school for 3 weeks now, and already 16% of my students have been absent at least 20% of the time or more.
I can’t teach them if they aren’t in class.
_____________________________________________________________
Remember, you are still accountable ( insert sarcasm here)!!
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 25th, 2010
7:31 pm
Totally liking the cheeto analogy! I get that!!! LOL!
Devil’s Advocate
August 25th, 2010
8:05 pm
The only thing that can address the internal is better education. Nothing else even has a chance, as decades and decades of failed public policy have proven.
_______________________________________________________________________
My point exactly…teachers do not create public policy! They react to it so they can feed their families.
@ Anna
August 26th, 2010
4:41 pm
If you want a test that is valid and reliable, then it would take $$$ to develop it. If you want the test to be more open, that is, all items are to be released after every administration, it will cost even more $$$. You can’t just have teachers make their own tests and use them for the purpose of evaluating them, either. You WILL have to use a standardized tests that are catered to the specific state standards – until we fully implement the Common Core State Standards – and even then only in math and language arts.
high school teacher
August 26th, 2010
7:25 pm
I am a little disturbed by some of the teacher comments. First of all, I do establish a relationship with my students. Granted, it’s not easy to do with 135 students that I see for 53 minutes each day, but it’s my job. I also contact parents if students have missing assignments. They are still the legal guardians of the CHILD who is sitting in my class. Our principal requires us to make 5 parent contacts every week. It’s my job. I have found that when I make those calls early in the year, I don’t have to make as many later on. If you don’t want to establish a relationship with your students, go teach college.
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 26th, 2010
8:24 pm
Dear Lynn43-Thanks for sharing. Not heard the ice cream tale before-I like the imagery of it. I think it would make a wonderful’s children’s story book with illustrations-it makes sense about so many things that children end up beating themselves up over too -that they have no control over.
Again, thanks for sharing. (4 sum entirely sappy reason it’s made me cry, i don’t know why)
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 26th, 2010
8:49 pm
Dear HS teacher-
what you are speaking about it a given. of course.
that’s not what I am speaking to
additionally, parent(s) as my student’s legal gaurdin is not necessary the case with the student’s I teach at all- but yes, whomever, I am not referring to something as simple as “teacher contact” with parent. I’d like you to know that – if it matters.
thanks
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 26th, 2010
8:58 pm
Elizabeth- noooo. You teaching style is valued. That’s the thing I like about a teaching team because we are all so different and our students get exposed to a variety of personality & teaching styles even before we mix things up for kids-I so would want my children in a class with a teacher LIKE YOU! I think teachers like you are awesome! Your direct high expectations ARE YOUR STUDENT’S MOTIVATING STRATEGY!!
Sometimes one of us, we be, just what a student needs.
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 26th, 2010
9:01 pm
I am not in the room, but I can hear the tv, a character on some tv show (30 Rock(?))- just said “And I’m getting paid 1 million TEACHER SALARIES!”
HAHA – 2 funny. just thought I would share that
teacher salaries – an unit of quantity
hahaha
hs teacher
August 26th, 2010
10:10 pm
I recently explained to my dentist that merit pay for teachers is similar to dentists’ salaries being based on how many of their patients floss every day.
The dentist can examine your dental problems, correct what he can, and make suggestions for better dental health, but it is up to the patient to do the work.
Of course, in the case of dentists, the worse their patients care for their teeth, the more profitable it is for the dentist.
Devil's Advocate
August 26th, 2010
10:42 pm
I bet dentists could get their patients to floss if they spent an hour a day with them.
Elizabeth
August 27th, 2010
8:16 am
High schoool teacher– Define “relationship”. I did establish a relationship and rapport with most of my studetns. They came back reminiscing about my class and the way I used gentle ( not sarcastic) humor to get them to work. Sometimes we had games or oral quizzes to keep them alert. But most of the time I had a quiet classroom where students worked BY THEMSELVES and were required to figure it out for themselves. It’s called THINKING. When my kids got into groups, they knew they had better produce or they would be completing the assignment at home on their own. And it was always a culmination to a unit, not a begiining or middle. They had to work before they got into the group. Those who did not work did not get into the group. And that caused me to be even more vilified. But despite the fact that I was not their friend and made it clear that I was not their parent ( I did NOT provide paper and pencils for those who left them behind, nor did I send them to lockers to get them), most of them responded to the adult authority figure
(me) positively after they got to know me. Those who did not– a small percentage– and their parents caused all the trouble. I repeat — I am not a salesperson, an entertainer , or a surrogate parent. I AM A TEACHER.
Elizabeth
August 27th, 2010
8:23 am
If a dentist could spend an hour with ONE patient, I am certain he could get them to floss. But if a dentist was spending ONE hour with 30 patients, all of whom had different needs and problems with their teeth, how many do you think he could get to floss when he had an average of 2 minutes per patient to fill a tooth, clean teeth, examine the mouth, counsel the patients on what they need to do, etc.? That is the flaw in your argument. A dentist sees one person at a time. Teachers see 30 students ( sometimes more ) in that hour or less. If the dentiost’s patient does not follow the advice given, the dentist can refuse to service them again. Teachers cannot. You are comparing apples and oranges. You obviously have NO CLUE about what teachers really have to do.
Devil's Advocate
August 27th, 2010
10:55 am
I am a teacher. And i know that in my 70 minute block, I can easily teach all the state standards, push for critical thinking, and establish relationships that start to break down the barriers to achievement.
And you clearly are going too crazy with that stupid analogy. A dentist could easily get 35 people to floss in an hour, if they planned corectly. You yourself admit that it’s apples to oranges anyway, so why are you even trying to extend the analogy to a ridiculous extreme. Check yourself.
LLL
August 27th, 2010
12:43 pm
You know, my dentist convinced me to floss regularly by charging me so much for all the corrective work he had to do because I wasn’t flossing. I don’t think he spent an hour with me – although I wasn in there for more like 2 hours – because he was in and out taking care of a few other patients at the same time.
Pat
August 27th, 2010
6:14 pm
Thinking of the dentist analogy, thinking about, “A dentist could easily get 35 people to floss in an hour, if they planned corectly”. I don’t know.
It makes me think about how all the Minister’s (Rev. Preacher etc..) children I knew when growing up were such Hell-Raisers compared to the rest of us.
Retired Educator
August 28th, 2010
11:26 am
The biggest problem with the public vs teachers is that teachers spent countless hours in school and a amassed hugh debt to become professionals in the field of education, and the public did not; yet, everyone wants to tell educators how to do what they were trained to do without having been trained to do the same job.
That includes parents, politicians, and the media. Anyone who wants to direct the job of teaching should have at least been educated in the same field so that would know what they are talking about instead of blowing off the cuff steam on how best to educate our children.
DMACK
August 28th, 2010
1:42 pm
Public perception of education is largely based on the erroneous reporting of misinterpreted statistics and news stories. Unfortunately, as this report indicates, most of the respondents believe their local schools are doing a good job. However,when a few teachers are accused of improper relations with students and a few administrators are accused of stealing and cheating…….the public is misled again by the few bad examples…….
lovetoteach
August 28th, 2010
5:22 pm
I’m teacher who supports merit pay and eliminating tenure…there are many of us, but we keep our mouths shut lest we be stoned (joking). I’ve seen tenure protect the jobs of very ineffective educators. If I put in long hours of committed and enthusiastic work, and if that results in happy children who make great educational gains, why shouldn’t I be paid an incentive?
Special Ed. Teacher
August 29th, 2010
2:52 pm
The question that people are not thinking about is how do you base the merit pay fairly for all educators across the board? How do you account for special education classes if there is a one size fits all merit pay standard? If you are teaching a special education class under the merit pay standard you are out of luck if they base it on standardized testing results.
They need to come up with a much better method than testing. The recent testing/erasure scandal in APS should show us that testing is not all that it seems and should not be the only criteria to determine effectiveness.