A gulf between teachers and the public on what works best in our schools, including merit pay and end to tenure
A new survey shows a gulf between the broader public and teachers on the best ways to improve America’s schools. (It is a gulf we often see here on the blog between parent posters and teachers.)
The fourth annual survey by Harvard’s Program on Education Policy and Governance and Education Next found that while the public supports merit pay for teachers, teachers strongly oppose it. (And we clearly see that on the blog.)
Conversely, while the public opposes teacher tenure, teachers favor it. And teachers are more opposed to the federal Race to the Top program, from which Georgia just won $400 million yesterday.
As usual, Americans think that public schools are bad, except their own.
Among the noteworthy findings:
- Only 18 percent of survey respondents give public schools an “A” or a “B.” More than one-quarter of respondents give the nation’s schools a “D” or an “F.” Only 28 percent of teachers give the nation’s schools an “A” or a “B,” while 55 percent give them a “C” and 17 percent a “D” or “F.”
- The grades improve, however, when people are asked about their own schools. About 65 percent give their local elementary school the highest grades; 55 percent do so for their local middle school. Only 6 percent assign their local elementary school a “D” or and “F,” while 12 percent assign those low grades to their local middle school.
- Support for basing a teacher’s salary, in part, on student academic progress on state tests rose, increasing from 44 percent in 2007 to 49 percent in 2010, while opposition declined from 32 to 25 percent. However, only 24 percent of teachers support the idea.
-Those who oppose teacher tenure outnumber those who support it by a margin of almost 2:1. Forty-seven percent oppose the idea, while 25 percent favor it. But among teachers, 48 percent favor tenure.
-Thirty-two percent of Americans think Race to the Top is necessary to improve education, but 22 percent believe it is an intrusion into local government. However, 46 percent of those polled had no opinion. Teachers oppose RttT by a 2:1 margin, with only 22 percent saying they like the program.
-There was a surge in support for virtual schooling. Between 2009 and 2010, the percentage in favor of allowing high school students to take an online course increased from 42 percent to 52 percent, while opposition fell from 29 percent to 23 percent.
-Support for charter schools remained essentially unchanged between 2008 and 2010 —rising from 42 percent to 44 percent, while opposition increased from 16 to 19 percent. The remaining group—36 percent— remained neutral. Among teachers, charter support fell from 47 percent to 39 percent.
- Support for school vouchers has fallen. While 45 percent of the American public supported vouchers in 2007, only 31 percent did so in 2010.
-Fifty-eight percent of the public thought states should toughen their testing and standards, but only 33 percent of teachers felt that way.
-More Americans (62 percent) believe Congress should continue testing requirements in math and reading than oppose the idea (12 percent), with 26 percent taking a neutral position. But only 50 percent of teachers supported maintaining these requirements.
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126 comments Add your comment
ABC
August 25th, 2010
4:27 pm
While I don’t think a teacher’s salary should be based 100% on test score (dammit how much I hate tests…I wish they would do away with them altogether! They don’t prove squat), I think it should be some kind of performance based. And like “Enough” said, there are PLENTY of jobs out there that have some percentage of your performance based on things completely outside your control.
For instance. I worked in the corporate office of a major retail company. I was an accountant. I crunched numbers and did financial analysis. 10% of my review was based on sales. SALES!!! I had zero control over sales! I was not a buyer (the people that bought the merchandise that was sold in the stores), I was not in the sales floor EVER, I was not a store manager, supervisor, or anything like that, I was not in advertising or marketing. And yet, 10% of my evaluation was based on whether the company met the sales numbers.
I could argue that a teacher has a whole lot more control over tests results than I did over sales. So let’s say 15-20% of the pay should be based on test scores. The rest? How about parent surveys, peer reviews, how many continuing education courses the teacher took, observations from the principal?
And I remember how much the teachers were complaining about districts cutting costs and firing based solely on seniority. How is that more fair than merit? If you don’t allow merit, you open yourself to be fired over an irrelevant thing like how many years u have been in the district. I think the ones that complain about merit pay just wouldn’t pass muster. The teacher I know wouldn’t care. They know they can hack it.
Fired Up
August 25th, 2010
4:32 pm
Some of the public wants to make parallels between us and other professionals, but they are comparing apples to oranges. As a teacher, I’ve always thought the current pay system made no sense…automatic raises whether I do a good job or not. Some teachers just show up on the job and make little or no impact. They never cause trouble, but they never really offer a service. Yet these kind of teachers work their way up the scale and are less likely to get terminated than really strong, passionate teachers who put their hearts into their professions, but “ruffle feathers” from time-to-time. That never made sense to me, to reward anyone who may just be showing up, but not really teaching (Yes, I’ve seen it.). HOWEVER, evaluate me for what I deliver, but don’t look at a one-shot test. Look at everything that’s happening throughout the year. Make surprise visits to my classroom. Have me collect artifacts throughout the year to demonstrate what I am doing, but DON’T expect to measure the progress of any human being by a yearly test. It’s not fair to us teachers or to our students. So, bring on the merit pay, but offer a fair evaluation.
ABC
August 25th, 2010
4:36 pm
Fired up: completely agree with you. Not test scoring alone, but a combination of ALL the things you mentioned. A good teacher should have nothing to fear with that system. While the ones that just “punch in” would not make it.
me
August 25th, 2010
4:50 pm
@ Been there done that.
Nope, only administrators lost their right to a fair dismissal (Ga tenure). This is why you have so many poor, spineless administrators now. Try managing 100 people with a good bit more job security than you. All too often you either bow and scrape to every new idiot idea or hit the soup kitchen.
Short Timer
August 25th, 2010
4:56 pm
Maureen, Your blog about dress code included a scenario where your daughters do not have eough time to eat lunch. How about some more investigation into that topic. I am in a trailer that is about 5 minutes away from the cafeteria and my students get twenty minutes for lunch. Most don’t even get in line, they just sit and socialize. Why are parents not upset about this. Check the research and tell me if this is “what’s best for children, as I constantly hear from administrators. I am always told that we have looked at the data, but that is usually only when it puts more n the teachers and less on administration.
Dan
August 25th, 2010
4:59 pm
Nicely stated fired up
@ABC no an accountant doesn’t have control over sales, but rather having a stake in the sales allows your compensation to move a bit with the companies success (and I have been in accounting/finance for over 20 years) the same could be done for schools, part of the compensation could be based on the schools success. Nobody works in a vacuum, everyones success depends partly on anothers. Some are anchors some are lifters. As a manager I am evaluated constantly on the performance of my team.
Ole Guy
August 25th, 2010
5:05 pm
Teacher pay should, in absolutely no way whatsoever, be based on test results. Test results should be based, IN THEIR ENTIRETY, on students. To do otherwise takes the monkey off the backs of kids. THEY, and THEY ALONE, should be held accountable for their academic records.
Teachers, on the other hand, could use some UNBIASED periodic professional observations.
All this will be accomplished ONLY when the teacher corps gains unified representation. Until then, teachers will always be relegated to being hand maidens of the DOE…TEACHERS OF GEORGIA, LET’S GET WITH IT!
Dan
August 25th, 2010
5:08 pm
@logic, first of all don’t compare teachers to doctors, there is a world of difference between the effort it takes to become a doctor and teacher, and rightly so. There is too great a need for teachers, you couldn’t possibly fill the need were the bars set at the same height. Your position on merit pay suggests that teachers have no control over the students success. If that were the case why not just hire baby sitters and give the kids text books to read, or I guess since they wouldn’t be able to read…movies. Or perhaps you believe that teachers can take credit for succesful students but not failures??
Nah such a belief would be contradictory to your blog name
catlady
August 25th, 2010
5:29 pm
LLL, let me add to what Tonya T. says. Doctors also profit (in every sense) from the research and work of NIH, CDC, and many, many other tax funded entities.
EnoughAlready: Any of your products ever tell you they will NOT perform, and you can’t get rid of them? Any of your products come to you made of inferior materials, and you can’t discard them? Any of your products try to keep the other products from becoming ready to be picked up by the customers? No? Then your argument is specious.
Dan
August 25th, 2010
5:30 pm
Hypothetical question
If you have 20 kids in a 5th grade math class and in timeline 1 teacher A works with them for a semester. Timeline 2 teacher B works with them.
Would there be a difference in how well those kids knew the material at the end of the semester? Therein lies the answer to merit pay or not to merit pay
Dan
August 25th, 2010
5:35 pm
@catlady
The better the teacher, the less of the product will refuse to perform, the more will be made of the inferior product, and fewer of the products will interfere with the others. Which is the point of merit pay. There is really no cogent argument against merit pay,Except the difficulty in fairly applying it. It is not an easy task. But those that deny all responsibility for failing students simply prove the need for a merit system
Tonya T.
August 25th, 2010
5:44 pm
My question:
How will this reform be funded in an economy where we are struggling to keep teachers on the rolls under the current system? I actually believe, if brought to the table, teachers could buy into merit pay under the right conditions. But how would we fund the increases? The bonuses? If good teachers make more, there will be no real savings from the current pay scale. The money has to come fro somewhere. If the bar is raised for beginning teachers, where will the extra money for starting pay come from? Everybody wants a better product, but no one seems to get that like a Pontiac vs. a Porsche, it come with a higher price tag. One of the reasons GA is at the bottom is we get what we pay for. Is the public willing to pay more?
After the NBCT debacle, I can see why so many educators are wary of buying into anything the public or politicians promise. Just saying…
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 25th, 2010
5:53 pm
Reply 2 HS Teacher Too-
Your comment-”…tenured public school teachers are empowered to speak up against injustices in the school, in particular those by administration. Tenured teachers know that they cannot be fired for calling out the principal …, or the administrator … etc. Without tenure, the ‘big bosses’ know that they can intimidate teachers like sheep to do what they want no matter what.”
I am waiting for you to holler “Da Plane, Da Plane!” because you Must Be living on Fantasy Island, HS Teacher Too!
If ever there was proof that “tenure” means “zero” in GA – it would be the CCSD tribunal hearings for it’s tenured non-renewed teachers this summer/August. Ground your “tenure” fantasy in reatlity by reading some of the reports of testimony from CCSD fired “tenured” teachers. The very things you say they (everyone of them a TENURED TEACHER with the CCSD) are “empowered” & “can not be fired for” ARE WHAT THESE TEACHERS HAVE SAID THEY HAVE BEEN FIRED FOR!!!
Additionally, please note that the “big bosses” were serving as fill-in-board-member-tribunal-panelists, as well as, testifying against the non-renewal of contract appealing “tenured” CCSD teachers.
The public assumption that folks seem to believe & hold on to for some reason about teacher “tenure” in our state (when “tenure” as a term concerning employment rights is used in our state) is that once someone has it they are affored some kind of job sercurity. They are not.
A tenured teacher may be more of a nuisance or “pest” to fire than someone that isn’t (due to the right to a “fair dismissal hearing in regards to their non-renewal of employment contract if requested – which usually one doesn’t because being “Non-Renwed” in the teaching profession is the equivalent of being Box Office posion in Hollywood ; therefore most “resign” rather than be “non-renewed”). Firing a “tenured” teacher would involve some action, effort & time, over someone that isn’t tenured – in which firing you takes no action, effort or time (GA is an at-will to hire/at-will to fire state) – is, for the most part, true, in the most literal since, but then again, in the most literal since, WE DON’T HAVE TENURE IN GA & what little residue of the term “tenure” associated with a “fair dismissal” employment right remained for teachers in our state was HOSED OFF this summer/August by the CCSD BOE.
Educator2
August 25th, 2010
5:54 pm
@ Shar- Point taken!! “The teachers on this blog are correct – if they are to be rewarded based upon their students’ academic performance, that is what their responsibility should be limited to. Parents are right, too – taxpayer dollars should be heavily weighted toward those teachers who are the most engaging, motivating and effective in the classroom, and job protections should never shield poor performers. The problem is mission creep: How can teachers earn merit pay for academic excellence when they are expected to compensate for poor policy or curricular decisions and parental abdication?”
@Tonya T – I have said the same thing many times, top. “In addition, the public wants teachers held to higher moral and professional standards than the parents themselves, many times to outlandish levels”.
Devil's Advocate
August 25th, 2010
5:54 pm
Can’t wait for this movie…
http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/
Devil's Advocate
August 25th, 2010
6:25 pm
Things are changing…
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/opinion/25friedman.html?_r=1
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 25th, 2010
6:40 pm
Additionally, Tonya T- (you did such a good job of clarifying what I failed to read prior to my post, I apologize for redundancy MD & blog readers) May I add that in the CCSD teacher terminations I have read about in the AJC & Marietta Daily Journal (www.mdjonline.com) the teacher doesn’t have to be put on a PDP 2 be let go. A teacher doesn’t even have to have poor performance to be let go. A teacher with performance issue that is on a PDP (Eric Simpson) and improves (but the principal doesn’t like) can be let go…. (see AJC articles on CCSD Elementary School teachers (Science & Special Education) & (Lindley) Middle School teacher (MDJ has more teachers if you want to put “tribunal hearings” into the online paper version search box). It’s horrorifying to me and I believe every word of the teachers. The CCSD used it’s brand new teacher evaluation and it’s first time ever RIF policy to allow principals to fill the halls of their schools with pink slips of teacher they didn’t like this past May. It is shameful & if the CCSD BOE members had a conscience, yes, one between all 7 of them, it was destroyed when they voted for both: (1) the brand-new-never- trialed-still-training-its-evaluators-on-how-2-use-it-during-the-school-year-evaluation-tool (completely omitted YEARS OF SERVICE/TEACHING from being written ANYWHERE on the form -so when they were firing/or voting unanymously to not re-new on the tenured teachers during their non renewed appeal hearings- it wouldn’t matter if the teacher had two years or thirty years of service behind him or her) & (2)Superintendant’s Fred Sanderson, OMG- the- budget- is- due- Reduction- In- Force- on- the- Fly- policy! Some time ago, I came to the conclusion about this Board of Education anyway, they don’t need seven or even a single-shared good conscience to get a good night’s rest-they are vampires!
South Ga Teacher180
August 25th, 2010
6:46 pm
@Devil’s Advocate
August 25th, 2010
5:54 pm
Can’t wait for this movie…
http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/
First of all it is from the director of an Inconvenient Truth…that alone may cause a lot of people not to watch it. The result of DC’s issues are similar to all the large urban schools…the leaders of these schools are taking these policies generated out of the Urban Education agenda which has NO REAL research to suggest that what is being implemented really works…all this agenda does is create more problems such as illiteracy.
This film is propaganda to help change the landscape of education in this country to thinking that all kids must and should go to college. Not everyone will go to college and that is the reality. Propaganda such as this will do nothing more the fire up the base of ignorant folks who want to blame the schools for the short falls in education but in reality it is the politicians, the education think tanks, and the so called “expert” (like those at the DOE and Georgia Partnership) writing policy they know nothing about, especially if they have never taught a performance standard or taught under NCLB. This will only create and paint a tainted image that teachers are bad and it is all their fault that they cannot pass unrealistic tests and that the teacher is the ultimate independent variable in a child’s education….not so…look at the social dynamics that children come from and there is more sociological and psychological research that support this than any spotty education research which is often thrown around in the houses of state legislatures and Washington. It is easy to blame teachers for everything…individual responsibility is a thing of the past…right up there with chivalry.
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 25th, 2010
6:55 pm
2 me-
(administrators @ the soup kitchen) I am not aware of any CCSD administrators that were fired – probably because they needed to keep them all on the payroll 2 slander their tenured teachers accessing their fair dismissal right hearings this summer.
And 2 whomever was saying WAAAHHH poor teachers (scarcastically not in solidarity) we don’t get to say poop, stand up for ourselves or others, or do didley either – just like you- in your job environment. So stuff your scarcasm up your sphincter!
Devil's Advocate
August 25th, 2010
7:01 pm
Blah, blah, blah…if you can’t make an impact, don’t teach.
Public Teacher
August 25th, 2010
7:20 pm
@Dan – Just a guess on my part, but I would bet a good chunk of money that you have never been a teacher in any capacity whatsoever in a public school. Would I win that bet?
Public Teacher
August 25th, 2010
7:22 pm
@Devil’s Advocate – Blah, blah, blah… if you cannot properly raise a child with manners and a desire to learn, don’t have sex.
ScienceTeacher671
August 25th, 2010
7:25 pm
We’ve been back at school for 3 weeks now, and already 16% of my students have been absent at least 20% of the time or more.
I can’t teach them if they aren’t in class.
Jordan Kohanim
August 25th, 2010
7:27 pm
Dan,
My students are not “products” that “perform.” They are people.
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 25th, 2010
7:31 pm
Dear Dan-
ABSOLUTELY! 100%. I am a teacher that’s okay with merit pay.
But I am going to bring my data to the meeting that’s for darn sure. And that data is going to absence reports, records of parent involvement & support for my academic goals for each child/records of parent’s lack of invovlement & support, SES data for each student, performance data for each child in previous school years on a whole lot of diverse kinds of performance assessments, their medical records, including all mental and physcial exams performed, what they ate for breakfast every day of the school year (might also keep records of lunch & dinner too), how much sleep they received each night (not just school nights) for the entire school year, data on relationship of parents-for example-two parents living in same residence raising children, divorced parents, no father in picture, mom not in picture because she works 24/7),the parent(s) or guardin(s) medical and mental health reports, emotional profiles for students and parents from many sources, amount of time child is permitted to spend watching tv, on computer, playing hand-helds, on phone, IPod etc. – also what is watched, listened to and played, reading level, current reading list, and amount of time spent reading in the household per member per day for entire school year…
I’m going to have to meet the gene pool too; that’s just a flat out given.
I want DNA!
Because, you see that meth using whiskey swilling lollipop sucking cheeto eating permanently stained orange finger tips selling prenatals for cigarette cash teenage pregnant mother over there, – well, that little micracle of hers (and her brothers) could be the sole factor determining whether I get a pay increase or a pay free one year, couldn’t it? I’m just saying…
I’m all for it, I said that didn’t I?
Devil's Advocate
August 25th, 2010
7:37 pm
“Because, you see that meth using whiskey swilling lollipop sucking cheeto eating permanently stained orange finger tips selling prenatals for cigarette cash teenage pregnant mother over there, – well, that little micracle of hers (and her brothers) could be the sole factor determining whether I get a pay increase or a pay free one year, couldn’t it? I’m just saying…”
And that is why so many parents hate teachers, and I can’t say I blame them anymore. What an amazing level of ignorance…
If you don’t recognize that education is the only possible solution to the poor parenting problem, GET OUT OF THE PROFESSION!
Devil's Advocate
August 25th, 2010
7:39 pm
And Jordan, Dan was just referencing a catlady post. Jump her with your righteous indignation…
Tonya T.
August 25th, 2010
7:55 pm
@Devil’s Advocate
Education, by and large, cannot remedy poor parenting. I’ve seen it firsthand, both in my family and the public school system. You will catch some, but not most. It makes for beautiful movies, but has anyone ever asked what happened to the students AFTER the final scene? Seriously, there are so many social factors at play in the lives of students today that is oversimplification and, as stated by another poster, abdication of personal responsibility. 100% of nothing on earth will ever be successful. That’s just statistics 101
A large proportion of the schools that are failing are in predominately minority neighborhoods. To ignore the social fabric of these communities is largely why education is where it is now. As a black woman, I see why so many of these areas have issues, and it is something that must be addressed internally before a band-aid can be put on the wounds to heal.
Devil's Advocate
August 25th, 2010
8:05 pm
The only thing that can address the internal is better education. Nothing else even has a chance, as decades and decades of failed public policy have proven.
K Teach
August 25th, 2010
8:45 pm
Get rid of tenure and help get rid of lousy teachers littering my profession!
is there any wonder?
August 25th, 2010
9:00 pm
Just look at all these posts here. Is anyone surprised that there is a gap between teachers and the general public?
If teachers are powerless as Tonya claims, why do we bother even paying them? I suppose we should just base their pay on how well they baby sit.
Why tenure?
August 25th, 2010
9:36 pm
Having seen teachers be threatened with termination for choosing to become a single parent, only to have an administrator reconsider once they realized the teacher was tenured might chance a few minds on tenure.
Sure it protects some poorer teachers at times, but many times it protects good ones from administrative whims as well.
If
August 25th, 2010
9:43 pm
If education is indeed the savior, the single best thing the public schools could do is teach personal responsibility, but when you set it up so that the school has 100% responsibility to “save” the child, no matter what the does, or to the point doesn’t do, to apply himself, the education system disempowers the very same children they claim they are trying to “save.”
Devil's Advocate
August 25th, 2010
9:49 pm
agreed if – but teachers also need to walk the walk on personal responsibility and accountability if they preach it to their students. And teachers on this blog simply do not…
why?
August 25th, 2010
10:06 pm
Why should teachers be given an extra job protection other people don’t have? Is “tenure” for academic freedom or is it just a job protection mechanism?
Echo
August 25th, 2010
10:07 pm
@ Devil’s advocate…once again your blanket statements about what teachers do or don’t do shows your complete lack of intelligence on this matter. I still think you are an administrator, you sound a lot like one of the morons in my front office.
Devil's Advocate
August 25th, 2010
10:24 pm
And you’re probably one of those terrible teachers who thinks they’re great. Your conspiracy theory mindset is ridiculous.
I have years of experience as a mentor teacher to base my opinions off of. You have your failure Echo.
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 25th, 2010
10:35 pm
Dear Satan’s Monkeyl: If YOU don’t recognize that PARENTING is the only solution to this country’s poor parenting’s problem. YOU DIDN’T READ THE OWNERS MANUAL!
Leave some jobs for the parents and the other occupations in the world please!
ADDITIONALLY, IF YOU WERE PAYING ATTENTION YOU WOULD NOTICE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MERIT PAY HERE – PERFORMANCE PAY- AND WHEN YOU WANT TO TALK MY SALARY – THERE WONT BE ANY OF THIS KUMBAYA GARABAGE – I AM SERIOUS ABOUT MY INCOME AND IT’S POTENTIAL AS ANY OTHER PROFESSIONAL OUT THERE IN THE WORKFORCE (& PARENT EAGER TO GIVE THEIR CHILDREN THE BEST SHE CAN).
IF YOU DON’T REALIZE THAT THE BABY MAKERS NEED TO STEP UP AND PARENT THEIR CHILDREN, THAT IT IS THEIR JOB, NOT A TEACHERS, THAN YOU ARE CORRECT WE DO NEED TO GET OUT THE PROFESSION BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT SAY EDUCATION IS THE ONLY WAY TO FIX EVERYTHING AND THEN YOU WANT TO HOLD ME ACCOUNTABLE FOR FIXING ALL THAT AND THEN YOU WANT TO TIE MY SALARY TO IT, ARE YOU NUTS? TRY THAT ON ANY OTHER PROFESSIONAL TRY IT!
WHICH DO YOU WANT? YOU WANT ME TO RAISE THEM OR YOU WANT ME TO EDUCATE THEM? WHICH ONE? Hey! We don’t have to be Mother Teresa all the time simply because we are educators. I can’t suckle the country’s students and survive to feed my own! And when it comes to being paid for what I do- I have had it up to here with being expected to close all the gaps I didn’t create. Repair all the broken parts that I didn’t break. And unfortunately, I can’t do it all, I can’t even do some of it well anymore; the some is so much more than any teacher in education now could ever had expected he or she would be doing. I would like to get back to that which is what I do best, all the time, and that is teach my students!
I have had it up to here with having the delusion that all children are alike (notice I did not say equal!) shoved down my throat. That they all can perform at the same level at the same time, when I can’t think of two of anything that meet the same maturation & performance timelines exactly.Yet I am constantly hearing my salary needs to be based on my student’s performance. WELL, I BASE YOUR SALARY AS A PARENT ON HOW WELL YOU CHILDREN SPEAK, BEHAVE, & BECOME PRODUCTIVE MEMBERS OF SOCIETY, OH, PARENTS DON’T GET PAID FOR RAISING THEIR CHILDREN? NO KIDDING? THEN WHY SHOULD MY SALARY BE CONTINGENT UPON THAT IF THEY ARE NOT MY CHILDREN!
BY the way IN MY LIFETIME the generations of parentless or generations of parents without parent skills or parents without parent skills raising children to be parents without parent skills has develped TO THE POINT THAT IT IS NOW CRUCIAL-SO I AM PRETTY SURE I DIDN’T CAUSE IT WITH MY PERSONAL POOR PARENTING NOR MY PARENT’S OR THEIR PARENT”S POOR PARENTING!
Parents don’t hate teachers- just YOU do. Because that is the only reason you are on this blog-EVER! Whatever educational issue that caused you to be like you are – if you have children and they aren’t in private education – you need to get them there- because as a public school teacher, I’m not paid to put up with your mess darling. Nor will I.
Devil's Advocate
August 25th, 2010
10:37 pm
Lord help the poor children that have to deal with your hot mess. You are disgusting.
Devil's Advocate
August 25th, 2010
10:42 pm
I even accept most of your premise, keep your salary, fine. But for those teachers that can do their job and overcome the difficult circumstances, we obviously deserve more money, as we are clearly doing a better job. I would never support merit pay that cut average pay, but I’m all for rewarding excellence. Sorry that you are scared because you wouldn’t make the cut.
Tonya T.
August 25th, 2010
11:08 pm
@is there any wonder?
Last time I caught sight of a couple teachers’ paychecks, I thought that was already in place.
I am saying that much of what is currently going on in the education system is a result of removing teachers as stakeholders in the process of of deciding what education is. Teachers are told what to teach, and often, how to teach it. The content knowledge and pedagogy skills of many great teachers is overlooked in favor of the cure-de-jour of various education consultants. A great many of these consultants are nothing more than snake oil salesman with short-term solutions to long-term problems. Bring teachers to the table, listen to what they have to say, and take it into account when trying to change things. Period. Not union reps, not advocacy organizations, plain ‘ol teachers pulled directly from the classroom. Randomly. Given the the chance to roundtable without repercussions, and the passion that so many have for what they do would shine through.
Many teachers want reform, but it also needs a social aspect. Education is a great equalizer; even I can cave to that admission. But it can not be done in a vacuum. To ignore basic social issues like, food, shelter, and family support are crazy; but that is what the current system does. People talk about Title I schools like they are all equal, but I know Title I schools in some of the best areas in town. Do any of you think those kids fare any worse than non-Title I schools nearby?
I want the public to think critically, instead of bandwagon jumping for solutions without thinking through the details. Reform is a lofty goal, but how do you fund it? If better teachers = better schools, what do you do when the starting and cap pay goes up? What about areas where community and parental involvement remains low, what then? When you get great teachers in a school, do you move them around to poorer-performing schools even if the teachers prove NOT to be the issue? How often? I am pointing out that so very many couldn’t even name the principals of the schools in their local feeder patterns, but have opinions based on what snippets of information they receive from various media sources.
Education reform has come and gone before because the proponents didn’t think these things out. I’m trying to point out what I’ve seen from the inside because I am not going back, so I can speak freely. The zealots on both sides of this issue seems to want to stick their fingers in their ears, no matter how rational the points being made. In recent history, the cowboy mentality has gotten this nation into a heap of trouble, yet we play it the role again and again…
Tonya T.
August 25th, 2010
11:13 pm
@Devil’s Advocate
What you describe is incentive pay. You perform better, you get a bonus or better pay as a result. Merit pay, at least as introduced by the current crop of politicians in the Gold Dome, doesn’t resemble that at all.
Like I said , bring teachers to the table, hammer it out, and get it settled. Enacting with all the animosity teachers have toward the current plan is a recipe for disaster, and the students don’t deserve that.
another comment
August 25th, 2010
11:21 pm
Devil’s Advocate you are the one with the issues. But then you are probablly the Principal at my daughters school that thinks it is acceptable to only play Ghetto Rap music at the Freshman formal. You probably condone the parents who allow the failing children to have their T-mobile phones and chat and text through class. These same free lunchers are allowed to get away with never paying their dues for the Sports teams or Cheerleading, or bring the meals, work concensessions, after all the white ones will pay and work the shifts. Whitey doesn’t spend $300 on hair weaves/braids and $50 a week on acyclic nails so they can afford to support the teams. The entitlement crowd just knows don’t pay, they will let you keep on playing, they did last year and the year before.
Put up or shut up moment
August 25th, 2010
11:38 pm
Has there every been a time, once ever, that a major educational leader said that they will empower teachers with the authority to maintain discipline and hold students accountable for their work and behavior in exchange for giving up tenure?
We don’t hold firefighters accountable for putting out fires then refuse them the use of water, do we?
Don't hate the success
August 25th, 2010
11:43 pm
Don’t you all know, because of the high expectations Devil’s Advocate has, that six of Devil’s Advocate’s former students went on to become Supreme Court justices and three have become the first women president of the United States?
SWF Seeking Bliss Through Information Not Ignorance
August 26th, 2010
12:28 am
Dear “we are clearly doing a better job” & “we obviously deserve more money”,
Since my first year of teaching; I have always believed that Special Education teachers should be paid more for “do(ing) their job and overcome(ing) the difficult circumstances”. And to this day, I still believe that. I believe that 100%. I believe that should happen before a regular education teacher, like myself, ever received a “reward of excellence”. And oddly enough, if we are rewarded for excellence – “more money” (to use your words) based on student’s test scores; I don’t know how many of our excellent & deserving teachers in special education would ever get a reward (current education policy).
Again, your efforts of trying to blur your transparency & sound intelligent @ the same time are failing you. You are not a teacher! (But you are a misogynist!) Notice how you loudly bang on about money and rewards, where I do not! (Additionally, I don’t use test scores to declare my student’s excellence – (that is just so unatural & foreign a concept to me – all my students are excellent to me!) why would I expect them to be used to declare if I should receive a larger salray for a year).
As teachers, we didn’t pursue education (and to be honest, since a very young age, I think it pursued me in many ways-very good ways-great ways-born to teach epiphanies), expecting to make ceiling breaking salaries or to receive monetary rewards (I didn’t grow up in a era where students received money for grades either). The teaching experience makes it all worth it – regardless of salary level. The rewards come from my students and their parents too! They aren’t deposited in my checking account; they are deposited in my heart.
Lynn43
August 26th, 2010
1:37 am
I heard a speaker at a Board of Education conference who made this comparison. If I could remember his name, I would give him credit. He tells this story. A man who worked in an ice cream factory was given the task of producing an award winning ice cream, and if he did, he would receive all kinds of awards. The only thing he was responsible for was putting the ingredients together. To try to make this award winning ice cream, the company gave him sour milk, very old lumpy sugar, rotten eggs, and a few good flavorings. Needless to say, this man could not solve the problem of sour milk and rotten eggs, and certainly won no awards.
Was it the ice cream makers fault that he couldn’t turn sour milk into fresh milk or rotten eggs into fresh eggs. Even though he was the best ice cream making in the factory, he could not overcome the circumstances over which he had no control
The same is true for teachers. This (buzz word) achievement gap is going to continually get worse until the “powers that be” face what the REAL reason for this gap and deal with it. Money and putting teachers and student under stress is not going to help. Please deal with the real problem.
Are you serious?
August 26th, 2010
2:01 am
Still awake, can’t sleep. I have already figured our from my diagnostic tests that this is going to be a tough one. Oh no, majority nonreaders; and they want me to work a miracle. Maybe if I try more graphic organizers and more quizzes like the test. One is brilliant; got to figure out what to do with him so he won’t get bored. Two tried to fight as they came into my room and they were talking about fights elsewhere. One just showed up in class today, she’s already 2 1/2 weeks behind. I know I taught this last week, they’re acting like it’s Greek. You won’t me to repeat it again? Please put your cell phone away. Let’s try it again…this is the x axis and this is the y axis. That doesn’t look like a curve. Do you have kids? My baby daddy got put in jail. Can you please put your head up? Why I got to read this? This is boring. He threw that paper at me. So you’re saying that this point represents growth which can also be illustrated with a rightward shift of the LRAS curve? What is he talking about? Where you think you at? This ain’t Harvard! Can I go? It’s an emergency. Please stop shooting at the trashcan. Let me have that cell phone.
Still can’t sleep. Got to go back and try again. 25 personalities, all with various learning styles…let me see
Are you serious?
August 26th, 2010
2:24 am
Figured “out”…it’s late.
Are you serious?
August 26th, 2010
2:29 am
You “want” me to repeat…
Hey, just thought of a new plan. Let me work on this now…maybe I can keep them on task and make them learn something in spite of themselves…maybe.