Michelle Rhee fires 241 under performing teachers in Washington. Can you fire your way to better schools?

We need someone with a backbone to be in charge of our systems in GA.

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The only thing that continues to bother me about stuff like this is that an educator’s performance is actually determined by a third party — a group of students. When merit pay was being discussed during the 2010 session of the General Assembly, I had some of my students, all seniors, ask about the ramifications of that and if they decided as a group to target a particular teacher and bomb a test, would affect the teacher….. That is a lot of power taken away from an educator over the fate of his or her career.

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d – I think the balance of observation/test scores would most likely prevent any scenario like the one you suggest from taking place. But, if that teacher could inspire that kind of anymosity, is the teacher reallly effective? I’ve worked with teachers who were drill sargeant types who might make students upset to begin with, but inevitably, they would end up very popular.

I think this kind of action is extremely necessary, though it is just part of the equation. We can’t fire our way to a solution, but it will definitely prove to be a part of the equation.

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I don’t know the details so I’ll withhold final judgement. However, I will suggest that the law of unintended (but obvious) consequences may kick in. What kind of teacher will want to work for a boss whose “signature” management technique is firing people? I have some ideas but will save them until I know more. But, they won’t be good for the students.

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Good to see that we are on the high road…

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So if a teacher has all honors students, and 100% of the students pass the EOCT or GHSGT, is s/he a good teacher?

And if the same teacher next year has all collaborative classes filled with socially promoted students and those on IEPs, and the pass rate is only 60%, is s/he a good teacher?

Or can you tell from the data provided?

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When you are in the profession that supposed to influence others, it is perfectly valid to judge quality of your work based on what those you are supposed to influence perform, isn’t it?

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How do you know most of the teachers are bad teachers ? Is it possible that
some of the teachers were fired, because they disagreed with the policies
implemented ? Could it be possible that certain teachers not on good
terms with particular administrators received a disproportionately high
number of behavior problems in their class ? Maybe most of the teachers were
lacking in improving student achievement,but we don’t have any evidence
to support the claim. Was person number 241 on the list that much worse than
the person that could have been 242 on the list ? The negotiations of DCPS
must have given Chancellor Michelle Rhee the power to make the cuts. I hope
more educators are supported to assist them in meeting the challenges ahead.

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Here is an article that outlines the IMPACT program that was used to make the decisons.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcschools/2010/07/sizable_number_face_impact_ax.html

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Rhee, Obama, Duncan…all Democrats. Time to get past labels, because if Democrats have started to see that weak teachers are dragging down the profession, it can’t simply dismissed as partisan politics.

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The issue of focused pressure on educators crosses party lines.
NCLB under President Bush’s authorization had just as many
Democrats supporting it even after states registered complaints.

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Happy teacher apparently works for a principal who likes her very much. I’ve know horribly abysmal and mean teachers who get great evaluations and other perks because they have done “favors,” such as cleaning out gutters at the principal’s home!

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The best teachers have that innate talent. Then that talent is nurtured. I do not agree that teaching is just a learned process. Without compassion for learning, the teacher cannot reach the underachievers. After 32 years, this is what I have found to be true. I have worked with countless student teachers and university students who want to walk in five minutes before the bell and walk out when the students leave. A teacher cannot just turn on and turn off like that. It’s not like many other 8 to 5 professions. So, I support the termination of “bad” teachers; the teachers’ unions spend too much effort defending those who have no business being teachers.

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A school and its teachers can NEVER make up or substitute for what the child does not get at home. The few years that Rhee taught involved getting parental permission to give two hours of homework each day so that the students didn’t have time to watch TV, AND attend class on Saturdays. Maybe Hollywood should make a movie about her in the vein of “Stand By Me” or “Stand and Deliver.” I am so glad (sarcasm here) that she is a much more dedicated teacher than the rest of us.

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Happy Teacher –

1. I’m guessing, then, that your “amazing” teachers wouldn’t have been quite as “amazing” without the “amazing school teacher”. Does it follow that an “amazing” teacher working in a toxic environment or for an incompetent administrator might not appear as competent as s/he would in a different environment?

How much of your “amazing culture” do you think was a result of good leadership, how much a function of parental support, and how much depended on the collegiality of the staff or other factors?

2. So your conclusions would be (a) that weak but motivated teachers can be bolstered and can improve in the right atmosphere with help from competent administrators and helpful coworkers, and (b) giving teachers too many responsibilities without sufficient time to handle said responsibilities results in a less effective teaching staff?

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#@($(%!!! First sentence in paragraph 1. above should be ” I’m guessing, then, that your “amazing” teachers wouldn’t have been quite as “amazing” without the “amazing school CULTURE”

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Should educators have pressure ? Yes (That pressure has been present for decades). The type
of pressure is different now than it has been in the past. How did this country manage to develop
the technological advances in the past 50 years without the laser focus on test scores as the
dominant focus ? Education is extremely important and pressure is a part of that,but so is
having a proper context about education. My point earlier was that the issues of education
are not the fault of just one political party.

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if you release the right folks, then sure.
if you can them for political reasons, nope.

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@ catlady, agree wholeheartedly about hiring processes. I have seen schools hire on the spot at job fairs without ever checking one resume or reference. If these teachers have more than half of their students not make learning gains in an academic year I could agree with the firing but I need to know what types of support mechanisms are in place for teachers, especially young ones. Our students are in crisis so I am not one for experimenting with teachers until they get it right for too long. Either you have the makings of being a good teacher or not. As an educator I did learn more as I went but I also had a great support system for a starting teacher in California. I don’t know about DC, but here in Georgia teachers either sink or swim the lack of support is disgusting.

I also agree with catlady about where are you going to find all of these “great teachers” with starting salaries as low as they are, with benefits being cut, and with almost the sole burden of responsibility for educating today’s youth on your back like a target? We simply are not luring enough exceptional college students interested in the field of education.

As for Rhee, she simply is doing the politically expedient thing by firing teachers. It’s simple, it makes a point, but it does not neccessarily cause effective change. Yet, when does the politically expedient thing ever do?

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So do the teachers in DC schools get to “fire” their underperforming students?

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School superintendents must know and understand that leadership starts with setting goals and a reasonable action plan. The action plan requires reasonable steps and modifications unitl the goals are reached. This does not happen in one huge step. As with anything else in life, one step at a time. If your plan to reduce weight, you do it one pound at a time and with starvation. Firing 1/4 of the entire population of teachers in DC schools fails resolve the student achievement problem, it creates more of a problem. As the educational leader, the DC superintendent should head the list and appeal her job to the teacher’s union. Let’s get real. Did the BP CEO loose his job for the negligence that created the oil spill?

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I am 100% for being accountable for student progress – but only if you let me pick the students. It is totally unfair for me to be held accountable for student progress when there are way to many other factors involved that I have no control over.

Let me pick students – the ones well behaved, the ones motivated to learn, the ones that have already mastered the content up of the pre-requisites, and so on. I can then do my job as a teacher and would certainly have students that show tremendous progress.

But, do not put students in my room that don’t want to be there, that don’t care to learn, are disrespectful, are rude, have not eaten dinner the night before or breakfest that morning, etc. I am there to be the teacher of content and not to be their parent. Parents need to properly prepare their offspring in order to maximize learning – and I have zero control over that part.

Over the last 10 years, I have proven my teaching ability through extremely high standardized test scores (EOCT). And, I have taught at 3 different schools and 2 different school systems with the same results from my students. Each school, while I was there, made AYP in GA. I am not claiming that it was all me, I am just stating facts.

Interestingly, the previous 2 schools where I taught did not make AYP this year. The school where I currently teach had 100% pass rate on the GHSGT. And yes, it is a public school.

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As a 1977 graduate of Wilson Sr. High and currently a high school teacher, all I can say is “YOU GO GIRL!!! Rhee acts on what most of us just hope for: high academic standards for all.

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What if the impact system is flawed, and most of the teachers fired were good teachers? Is that the way to better a school?

If you want to better a school, you deal with the underlying emotional problems that the children face. Pretending that using a flawed system to fire teachers will make a school better shows that the writer doesn’t understand education.

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I think reporters are so anxious to fire teachers that they are intentionally choosing not to look at the reasons underlying school failure.

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In order to protect their jobs, how will the surviving teachers react? This would be an excellent opportunity for the survivors to “enhance” the art of grade inflation.

It is alltogether possible that 241 teachers were deemed under performing because their students were making the lousy grades they deserved. With educational leadership like this, Georgia and D.C. may soon be battling for the bottom rung on the National educational scene.

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@Bob- That was my point- Where is the evidence ? The assertion could be correct
,but because a person states that 241 teachers fired were “bad” teachers doesn’t
mean that they were worse than other teachers kept. Didn’t we just go through a
well publicized example of people jumping to conclusions on limited information ?

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Vince,

You said “I like the growth model to look at teacher effectiveness. It is the only fair way to judge impact.”

Judging student growth is much more complicated than a standardized test. I used to work in business, and business is easy compared to education. With education you are often dealing with emotionally and psychological injured children. In business, people with emotionally and psychological problems are fired (and often end up in jail or homeless). In education, you can’t fire emotionally and psychologically injured children. You have to stay with them.

And in business, an employee can quit a job. A child cannot quit education until they are 16.

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Let me tell you something about standardized tests, the ones Rhee is using to fire teachers.

Say you have two children. Child A’s parents are from India. The parents speak Hindi or Urdu at home and amoung relatives. So Child A hears Hindi amoung the family. But when she goes out to the neighborhood and play, she speaks English. She also speaks English at the park district, in the stores and in the library.

Now you have Child B. His parents are from Mexico. The parents speak Spanish at home and amoung relatives. So Child A hears Spanish amoung the family. However, when he goes out to the neighborhood and plays, he speaks Spanish. He also speaks Spanish at the park district, in the stores and in the library. The only time he hears English is from his teacher or on TV, even on the playground he hears Spanish.

Which child is more fluent in English, Child A or Child B? Of course, Child A is. The problem with standardized tests for Child B is that he doesn’t have the English fluency to pass it at grade level, because he can’t speak English at grade level. I know because I have taught many Child B’s.

Another problem with standardized tests is that they are written in white English grammar. For many African American children they only hear white English grammar from their teachers and the TV. The rest of their life they hear Black English grammar. So when they write essays for the tests they write in Black English grammar. Although they are quite fluent in black English, they are marked down for using it. I know this because I’ve given plenty of standardized tests to African American students and I have seen it happen time after time.

This is so evident in education when you teach minorities I don’t understand why Michelle Rhee doesn’t take it into account.

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ST671 – I believe an “amazing” teacher will stand out in most any environment, no matter how deep the morass, especially when compared to peers. And I think it is rather self defeating to look around and say,”Well, problems all sround, so I’m going to hold myself less accountable.” Yet, I truly believe this happens all the time.

Our school culture is the product of the vision of our leadership, but the daily, rigorous application of that vision is done by the teachers and wouldn’t exist without us. I believe that teachers create the culture of the school, and that administrators can provide little more than a vision. The negativity in our profession is overwhelming, to the point that we have completely lost sight of thee enormous power we have. By blaming parents and administrators for all of our woes, we have given them all the power over our careers.

I do think that motivated teachers can improve with the right kind of development, but I seriously doubt that this type of teacher was the one fired in DC. I think a lot of teachers have an inflated self-opinion of their skills and are generally resistant to real change. It’s unfortunate, but from what I have observed across many schools, it’s true more than it should be.

And yes, giving too much responsibility can be a problem, but my experience this past year was so far outside the norm that it is useless as real “data” to evaluate. But I will say that in my years in a public school, I never felt like I was asked to do too much, though there were some deadlines that felt arbitrary and rushed.

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Google Michelle Rhee covers up Kevin Johnson minor scandal and you’ll see all you need to see that Michelle Rhee has little to no ethics.

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“Rhee, Obama, Duncan…all Democrats. Time to get past labels, because if Democrats have started to see that weak teachers are dragging down the profession, it can’t simply dismissed as partisan politics.”

Sure it can happy teacher. It’s the Democrats vision that the nanny state is responsible for solving problems, not the individual taking personal responsibility, so if we spend billions on an entrenched bureaucracy that calls on more “teacher training” to solve all education problems, it fits right into the partisan agenda.

One just has to take the blinders off and look at the educational leaders they have supported, despite the scandals they have been involved with.

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A friend of mine was fired about 10 years ago from a DC school because he had too many kids failing and would not change the grades. He told the principal to change the grades so the principal fired him.

Education is like plumbing . . . it starts from the top and flows downhill. When systems implement ridiculous policies that undermine the profession, then of course their teaching and student learning is affected. What’s wrong with correlating classroom grades to standardized test scores? If there were really “truth in grading” policies, then we really wouldn’t even need to have standardized test scores (except to appease politicians). If a child is not performing up to expectations, then it should be up to them, parent(s) and student, to seek additional help, not solely the teacher’s responsibility. It’s the teacher’s job to let the student and parent(s) know where the student is at before a standardized test, it’s called classroom grades or “truth in grading.” I worked at a school where students could not receive a zero for not turning in any work; they were giving a 49. If they made below a 50%, we had to give them a 50, per “management.” If we did not abide by this policy then you deemed a “bad” teacher!

Let’s face it, if want YOUR child to succeed, then YOU have to teach them; the classroom teacher will facilitate their learning.

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Just started my 4th (5th if you count the year I subbed…). Why?

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Does the AJC fire 100 reporters because readership goes down? Right…other factors you say, oh could be intellect of metro readers, competition of other media…a whole host of things you say? Excuses, excused…. It has to be the quality of the reporters. Let’s see, try this 6 week journalist crash course and make sure you have quotas to reach. Who cares what the stories are about as long as we reach our quota. Back to the trenches.

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Happy Teacher, I think that some teachers are better than others, and I think there are a few exceptional teachers who stand out in any school – just as there are exceptional salesmen, engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc.

I think the culture of a school starts with the administration – are teachers supported? Is there discipline? Do the students feel that teachers and staff care about them? Does the administration stifle or support teaching and learning? Are the paperwork burdens manageable, or are teachers buried in administrivia? Is a collegial atmosphere promoted? Then you have the question of whether or not parents value and support education.

I also think the administration can help influence whether new (and more experienced) teachers improve or whether they burn out and leave the profession early. When new teachers are given the “worst” classes and students; when they are given the “hardest” preps and too many preps for a new teacher to manage; when they aren’t mentored adequately — new teachers can be set up for failure.

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Happy Teacher, asked about your years of experience because your 9:57 post makes it sound as if you’ve been teaching for at least a decade in several different districts.

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ST- My certification route and masters program, plus pd opportunities I have had have allowed me to spend a LOT of time in different schools, observing lots of teachers. Plus, I consistently volunteered in schools during my previous career, which was what inspired me to change careers.

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I looked at your “story” and didn’t find sourcing credible enough to comment on.

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If DC teachers reps didn’t include in their contract specific language as to how teachers would be supported in terms of chronically and severely disruptive students whose insubordination and defying of teachers’ authority hijacks the learning process, then those reps sold their teachers out, pure and simple.

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Oh no! Trust me, right there with you on the cheating thing! I see first hand the damage that has done to children and families, but I see little connection to the topic at hand. Though I’m sure you are about to regale me…

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One post in the filter….

I have seen some evidence that teachers with higher SAT/ACT scores etc. and better college achievement also do better at improving student achievement.

The question is, how do you attract more of the “better” students to teaching as a career? It doesn’t pay as well and it doesn’t command as much respect as many other fields for which those students would qualify, and requirements for admission to schools of education are ridiculously low.

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I think the Maureen analogy is weak, because teachers are dealing with children, from questionable (at best) backgrounds, often with little to no upbringing. Does this situation suck? Yup. Does it put teachers in terrible positions? Yup. But it’s the reality of the job. Do I wish that students had more accountability? Yes, but as the teacher in the room, I also recognize that I am too close to most situations to see the big picture clearly. And though I feel there are some terrible administrators out there, I think the right thing gets done an overwhelming majority of the time. I’m sure we could trade anecdotes all night, but I think it is just a cop-out to constantly point all blame outwards.

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I’ve always enjoyed filling out evaluations of my administrators. And in my career, I’ve seen more administrators fired than teachers, so I guess I just don’t see things the same way you do.

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Wow, equating schools to a war? Hmmm…

Have a good night.

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“And in my career, I’ve seen more administrators fired than teachers, so I guess I just don’t see things the same way you do.”

Don’t see them the same, or don’t want to see them the same? Maybe choosing not to be aware of certain realities makes one a Happy Teacher so whose to blame you?

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@ Happy Teacher—There is no way you have taught in a school with high poverty, serious discipline problems, no parental involvement and more than 50% eligible for early intervention or special ed services. I could teach tap dancing from the ceiling and children would still ignore me. Six year olds can repeatedly stab me with pencils and their mothers will say “Ok, I’ll try and talk to him”. Etc. etc. etc. There is no way you teach in such a stifling environment. Your perspective would definitely be different. I don’t have too much self-esteem as a teacher, but I will not allow a child that does not care about what I am sharing with them to make feel like a failure. You’re fooling yourself if you think that factors outside of a teacher’s control have no impact on a student’s achievement. The fact that your mom let you stay up all night to watch Flavor of Love, and now you are sleep during math hurts a first grader’s achievement. The fact that your mom brings you to school 40 minutes later every day hurts a first grader’s achievement. There are at least a million things that can be listed and I would have seen them all in my class or in my school. You definitely could not have experienced many of these issues.

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It’s a question of ethics Happy Teacher. Is it ethical to hold a teacher accountable to do her job, yet don’t give her the tools to do her job as far as supporting here in the essential task of holding students accountable for academics and behavior?

Can anybody provide any evidence that Michelle Rhea has acted ethically in that regard before firing teachers?

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I was mostly a happy teacher. It was a “calling” for me during my 31 years. I had LOTS of good students. But, many teachers don’t. When GM is asked to make quality cars out of pine straw and then held accountable, I’ll give creedence to the opinions of “business types.”

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Nikole, I’m sure there were plenty of soldiers in Fort Dix, NJ who were saying we’d have won in Vietnam if “the solders” would only fix their attitudes.

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@Happy Teacher

keep striving to do your best, and enjoy teaching.
you made some good points,but also remember
that coins have two sides and that there is some
validity from the other point of view.

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@Darrell Groves – They ca’;t fire Rhee because then they couldn’t tout the hard-working child of Asian immigrants angle, who went to an Ivy League school and is now working to save the down-trodden Black & Brown kids of the D.C. Public School System. How else would they back-door other Ivy and TFA grads into the classroom, without regard for the dedication and commitment of trained educators? By the way, those of you who assume those teachers (and others) are unqualified obviously know little about the teacher evaluation system. If she follows protocol, removing ‘ineffective’ teachers would not be so controversial because she would have cause to remove them. But as those of us in education know, you could be the best damn teacher in the building but if the principal (or a pet) does not like you or feels threatened, they will find a way to get rid of you. Sounds simple, but it really does happen. Why do you think so many teachers post under made-up names on this blog? What really bothers me is the fact that only teachers are deemed ineffective here. What about the leadership? Didn’t Obama call for new leadership at GM? Why can’t he do the same at DCPS? I think he may be worried about offending Gates, Broad, and Walton. Oh well…

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Maureen: You don’t want to believe it, do you?

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I just do not get this…half these people do not teach and never will. Why do they keep sesationalizing education. It is a wonder teachers can teach at all. Put a screen in each classroom that follows the script. Oh, the bully got your child. Oh no, Johnny just ate Suzy. Janie’s still crying because she can’t reach her desk for the trash. They just won’t stay in the classroom? Right!

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@Happy Teacher — going way back to your first or second post: Regarding teachers who are initially unpopular because of the rigor of their course, but who become popular later because of said rigor…true. HOWEVER, that doesn’t usually kick in for many students until AFTER (sometimes long after) the course is over. For most students, they don’t have the maturity to appreciate this until sometime down the road.

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As usual, the problem is black parents and the ones who suffer are the teachers.

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…and when my post gets out of the filter, I’m also blaming the DOE for “dumbing down” the tests and telling parents their children are proficient when they are anything but.

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I have had a student to refuse to prepare for the test because he did not like the class. This student never did work or tried to. No wonder he failed the test miserably. I did my job- should my pay be contingent upon his mood?- I would think that a more exhaustive approach would be best for students. This will never work if students and parents are not held accountable for their end of the bargain. It is important to note that this student had emotional issues related to his family. Also, administrators should balance this information with what they have observed in the classroom all year. Merit pay will not be some magic pill. What will happen is they will pass it and then hold students and parents accountable to give the illusion that it works- when they can just do that now.

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One, single student would never cause anybody to get fired. (Not sure why merit pay was brought back up)

In DC, student achievement data was 50% of the equation. The other half was observation-based, which sounds fairly comprehensive to me. It is clear that there are those who favor objective evaluations, and those that favor subjective. You can’t do much better than a 50/50 compromise, because neither side is going to totally get their way.

ST671- Do you think Common Core is a step towards honest assessments?

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As usual, the problem is black parents and the ones who suffer are the teachers.

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell. The “darker” a school gets, the more problems, academic/behavior, it has to deal with. Until this “2000 pound elephant in the living room” is dealt with nothing that Ms. Rhee or any other educrat does is going to make any difference in the long run.

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not to add- teaching becomes some public service comittment to pay off one’s student loans. If I knew then what I know now.

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Obama can count me out next go round. I am dissatisfied with his educational agenda-

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imagine the prodigious amount of unethical behavior and total incompetence needed to make an administration look as bad as the Bush administration on education issues. But somehow, the Obama administration has accomplished it.

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All of this is happening in a system with collective bargaining? We see the efforts to demonize teachers, yet unions are so weak at turning the tables. Some of the very simple things they could have done:

-agree to a major Rhee demand, but ask in return, as a show of “solidarity and commitment” that no administrator, including Rhee, make more that 25% more than the highest paid teacher. Watch Rhee squirm when the public sees she won’t commit to this.

-agree that the highest ethical standards should be in place in the system. Ask for every single record to be turned over in the Rhee-Kevin Johnson scandal, where a Congressional Inquiry found that Kevin Johnson, among other things, had inappropriate contact with a minor and Rhee did “damage control”. Watch Rhee squirm when she won’t commit to this.

-agree to the “accountability” that Rhee wants in exchange for a progressive discipline policy that will remove chronically disruptive students out of the regular school when other measures have not worked.

-agree to the IMPACT evaluation instrument, but in cases of alleged incompetence, allow for an independent group of evaluators to also conduct evaluations and offer strategies to address alleged weaknesses. Watch Rhee squirm when she won’t commit to that.

Give teachers the tools and more importantly, the authority to teach and checks and balances to make sure they are evaluated fairly in that regard. If you allow a Rhee, with that much baggage to demonize teachers without holding her accountable for the deplorable conditions in DC, you are one sorry union.

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If you needed any more proof that Andrew Breitbart is a total idiot, just look as his justification to why DC teachers shouldn’t have tenure: “Sidwell Friends doesn’t have tenure, and their school does pretty well.”

Yes the idiot really said that.

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Happy Teacher, thanks for posting that link to the Washington Post article. I found this detail interesting: “It is also controversial because about 20 percent of the District’s 3,800 classroom teachers will have half of their evaluation based on improvement in standardized test scores.”

I wonder why only 20% of the teachers were evaluated this way? Was it like the pilot program in certain schools, or were those teachers already flagged as needing improvement?

There are definitely bad teachers out there, and like HS Teacher said, administrators often turn the other way because the paperwork process required to get rid of a teacher is difficult. However, 241 seems really high…if you’ve hired someone because they are a warm body, you are going to have problems down the road.

I’m also surprised to read negative comments about Teach for America teachers. I went to grad school in Harlem and worked as reading tutor in a class with a TFA teacher who was an amazing teacher. I learned a lot from the way he taught. He was also just about the only classroom that didn’t have major fighting. We should be grateful to have those types of teachers in the classroom, even if they only give 2 years.

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A tired proposal that I like to drag out periodically when a topic like this comes up:

Given the CRCT, start with a total count of Needs Improvement, Meets, and Exceeds students.
I.e., Of the 100 kids left at the end of the year who were taught for the ENTIRE YEAR year by Mr. Jones, students came into his 5th grade math classes with 20 Needs Improvement, 60 Meets, and 20 Exceeds from the end of their 4th grade year. After a year with Mr. Jones, this cohort tested out at the end of 5th grade with 10 Needs Improvement, 65 Meets, and 25 Exceeds.

Getting this information for all the 5th grade math teachers in a school system would give you a pretty good idea of who is doing a really good job, and who is doing a really poor one, relatively speaking.

If you used the aggregated information to compare teachers ACROSS the same grade, you could get useful information.

For example, suppose “Improved” meant going up in performance, say from “Needs Improvement” to “Meets”, or “Meets” to “Exceeds”, and “degraded” meant going down, say from “”Exceeds” to “Meets”, or “Meets” to “Needs Improvement” .

Suppose also that we decided to represent teacher performance as a pie chart, where “improved” is colored green, “degraded” is colored red, and outcomes where the student’s status doesn’t change are grey.

THEN, you could look at the results of all the teachers of, say, Georgia geography. If all the pies look about the same then it is what it is. But if you look at a collection of pies and some are a lot redder than the average Georgia geography teachers’ pie, that would tell you something useful. Same for pies that were a lot greener than average.

It would give you pretty good information on who is doing a good job, who is doing a bad job, and who is average. And yes, if the same teacher is “Mr. Red Pie” for two or three years running, that would seem to me to be a STRONG indication that either
1) Mr. Red Pie is in serious need of some additional training, or failing that,
2) a career change is in order, either voluntary or involuntary.

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Here’s an example of what a teacher can be downgraded for using IMPACT

“Among the ways instructors can demonstrate that they are instilling student belief in success is through ‘affirmation chants, poems and cheers.’ ”

Another thing the Rhee groupies won’t admit. Testing experts uniformly dismiss the idea of using test as a major evaluation tool of the teacher. It’s not what the tests were designed for, it’s just how Arne Duncan misuses them.

Lack of ethics.

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If under Rhee’s system, teachers can be downgraded for rude behavior towards students, why isn’t Rhee downgraded for rude behavior toward staff, a level of rudeness so blatant that even her supporters don’t deny it exists?

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And what if you have 5 fantastic teachers on your team, and one just happens to be the least fantastic. They get fired, even if they do better than 90% of the teachers out there?

On the other hand, if someone has students consistently underperforming, there is most likely something to that that directly involves the teacher.

The problem with people like Rhee, is that they have acted so unethically, there is no trust in the system she puts forth. Of course her biggest argument that teachers are incompetent is that they agreed to her terms, and let a union who could have easily put the heat on Rhee to let her off virtually scot-free.

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Rhee is saying that a only a certain number of students should fail, or else the teacher hasn’t provided effective training right? So if Rhee is consistent, if a certain number of teachers fail, and are recommended for termination, Rhee should be fired for not effectively training them right?

A 62 page Congressional Report that fully documents Rhee’s unethical behavior, and this was the best the union could do?

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Get it right, Rhee was MENTIONED in a 62 page Congressional report. The report actually concerned the mis-use of funds in the AmeriCorps program. Rhee was just a witness in the investigation.

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That is fine, I respect your opinions, but I also feel it is important to stick to facts when you are indicting the ethics of a prominent figure.

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abe, honest, honey, if you think students don’t “quit” till they are 16 you need to get into the classroom!

Let’s evaluate Ms. Ree’s faculty improvement program She fired over 300 last year, and this year, instead of seeing a vast improvement, she “had” to fire almost 250 more. Gee, that worked, didn’t it? Maybe next year it will be 500?

Ms. Downey, do we have our schizophrenic poster still here? Or maybe I am getting crazy (ier)?

On the question of the incidence of “bad” teachers: IMHO, our school, with about 40 teachers, has 4 in need of serious “development” activities. One needs to be moved into a lower grade classroom, as she is not very sharp. The other three need to have a fire lit under them in terms of work ethic and class control. As it turns out, we are palming one off on another school (just as we have had several palmed off on us over the last few years). The others have “political connections”, so we are stuck.

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If this many teachers are failing to show improvement, shouldn’t Rhee fire herself for being ineffective herself?

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Oh yeah catlady, that poster is definitely here…

Also interesting that you’d recommend 10% of your school be fired (if I’m reading between the lines correctly). The number fired in DC actually represents 5% of their workforce, in a severe economic crisis. Just to provide a little context…

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And I’m sure there was no partisanship on the part of the Obama administration in the decision to fire the person who suggested criminal charges be brought against a basketball buddy of Obama was there?

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One last fact: When posters who defended Rhee were presented with questions about her background, integrity and ethics, they offered little to no defense and beat a quick and hasty retreat.

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Well Happy Teacher, seems you could measure a jump from the 13th percentile to the 90th percentile fairly easily. However, Rhee can’t produce any evidence that it happened.

Seems you could also measure the “acclaim” you received by Good Morning America and the Wall Street Journal for your classroom performance, but neither entity has a record of having mentioned Rhee by name during the time period in question.

Can you trust the intentions of someone who seems to have gotten where they’ve gotten in large part due to smoke and mirrors?

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Thank you for proving my point Happy Teacher. She cannot produce the scores, nor can any of her supporters produce the scores.

Now explain Happy Teacher, why her official bio says her performance as a teacher was so outstanding that she was featured on Good Morning America and the Wall Street Journal, but neither entity has any record of having mentioned her by name during that time?

Smoke and mirrors perhaps?

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HT, I didn’t say they should be fired. I DID say they should be on PDP (and I think 3 of them are). Give them another year and THEN if they continue lackluster work, consider other measures.

Ms. Downey, my prediction was 500 a little while ago.

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e&h- I honestly could not care less. I am impressed with a lot of her ideas, though I find her tactics unpolished and unnecessarily brusque. The one thing I admire most about her is that she works with the sense of urgency I would expect from a leader who serves students caught by the achievement gapp, so I find arguing about a stupid point on her resume to be just that. You must be constantly disappointed if you only accept leaders who have lived a flawless life. If that is your ideal, then bully for you, you are indeed a better peron that me, Rhee or Obama.

ST671- I agree with you whole-heartedly. Hopefully, new assessments will be used to raise the bar. I think a lot of the discussions we have about achievement in Georgia are just plain false and we need to get honest, and quick.

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e&h- I honestly could not care less

Just so we are clear Happy Teacher. As a professional educator, you are not the least bit bothered that another professional education, a superintendent who can affect the lives and careers of hundreds of other education professionals, has information in her official bio that can be collaborated by a grand total of zero people?

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Are all of the professional educators who post on this blog in agreement with Happy Teacher, in that it should be of no concern whatsoever that a school system superintendent gets their position based in part on an official bio that claims accolades that cannot be verified?

Do professional educators condone that type of behavior?

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The Daily Howler?

Well, I will say I admire your passion for education.

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Happy Teacher, you aren’t seriously going to claim that this wasn’t part of Rhee’s official biography are you?

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I do not have enough information on the Daily Howler to comment on the claim, which is not backed by any links, or common citation. Especially when this is coupled with the fact that a cursory Google search on the issue only produced articles that referenced the Howler. And this is further compounded by the fact that I do not care.

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I am qualified to teach science as evidenced by the fact that I was the first woman to walk on the moon. Unfortunately the mission flight tapes were lost when a technician accidentally recorded a Mork and Mindy rerun over them, thinking it was evidence of an alien invasion.

No problems there. And no problems in D.C.

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You’ll go with a self proclaimed increase from the 13th percentile to the 90th? Have you seen that anywhere in America? Even Ron Clark with all his success has had his students jump up about 20 percentile points.

You take on face value a 77percentile jump in Rhee’s class, despite the fact that no one can document it?

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It doesn’t exists now, likely because Rhee has changed her biography because she was called on things that have no documentation, but perhaps someone will post a link to the official biography that the Howler had.

My guess it was the one she used to get the job in the first place.

I’ll leave it at that for now, except to say if you’re going to be a true reformer, you better have your own house in order, not a house that reminds people of Rod Paige.

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As I read through the posts, three common threads are apparent: 1) kids aren’t all good, and the bad ones can make our jobs very, very challenging. 2) Accountability cannot be fairly measured by tests, nor can administrators always be counted on for objectivity. 3) Ineffective teachers somehow manage to keep jobs.

1) if we judge kids by the standards WE have for good and bad, many will never measure up. My solution to that as a teacher, which had helped me keep my sanity and love for the job, is that I needed to learn more about my kids and why the are the way they are. I teach in a school with about 60% poverty. So, I read books and attended classes on dealing with children from poverty. Man, did I have my eyes opened about why my kids act the way they do and learned many successful strategies for dealing with them, including throwing out my middle-class rubric for measuring their worth and ability. Transformation can occur when you do this, as it did for me.

2) Test scores are not, and never will be, an effective or reliable source for data on learning. Growth models, if done correctly, do at least provide a chance to judge student success and set goals that are within reason. From my study of the process, it seems a fairly effective way to set goals and judge performance. In my “perfect world”, test scores would be combined with portfolios of student work to more accurately, and fairly IMO, judge student and teacher success. Will that ever happen? I’m also aware of how unfair administrative evaluations can be. We have to have a new system for that calls for a mix of people evaluating teachers and leaves less room for “interpretation” by an administrator with an agenda. A bad evaluation should also be able to be debated and appealed.

3) God know how they do it, but some teachers just stay at the part WAY past midnight and show themselves for the rats they are. Again, if we had a better evaluation instrument which required more detail, discussion, and professional development, we could either help them improve or get them out. We need to work on this area.

I love teaching, and will stay in it for the long haul. I’m just glad I don’t teach in DC and wouldn’t if you offered me ten times my current pay. No way would I work for a system with the kind of pressure Atilla the Rhee imposes. She’ll get her due one day for her militant leadership, IMO.

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@justbrowsing
“Also- how do you measure growth in disjointed subjects such as science and social studies which can often be unrelated. If we look at the trends in test scores- it is obvious that 6th and 8th grade science are more difficult than 7th grade science. How would we determine growth in those instances? You can’t.”

Yes, you can. ONCE AGAIN, THIS WOULD BE A RELATIVE MEASUREMENT BETWEEN SIMILARLY SITUATED TEACHERS. Sorry I had to yell there, but the misunderstanding seems to be darn near willul. If you’re an 8th grade science teacher who is demonstrably greener than the other 8th grade science teachers in your school system, that’s a good thing. If you’re a lot redder than your FELLOW 8TH GRADE SCIENCE TEACHERS, that is potentially a problem. Especially if it stays that way for 2 – 3 years in a row.

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preceding comment caught in filter?

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If you were considering buying a vacuum cleaner, and the advertisement said “As seen on Good Morning America and the Wall Street Journal” and it turns out they weren’t on either, would you still by the vacuum cleaner?

But a school system superintendent can engage in the exact same behavior, and she gets a free pass?

My oh my how desperate some are to shill.

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How telling is it, that Rhee appears to have changed her official biography on the DC website once she was called out for having claims on it that no one can validate?

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Ok Happy Teacher just to be clear, you are perfectly fine with a school system superintendent who allows a bio of herself to be posted with claims that research into the Good Morning America and Wall Street Journal databases show don’t exist.

First you tried to dismiss this by pointing at the blog it came from. When it was pointed out it is also on the National Comprehensive Center for Teacher Quality that tactic didn’t work.

Now all you are left with is somehow claiming that Michelle Rhee shouldn’t be held accountable for inaccurate information on her own official bio?

If you saw a doctor who advertised “Featured on Good Morning America and the Wall Street Journal” and it turned out there was no record they were featured in either, would you still trust them? But somehow we should give Rhee a free pass?

You’re that willing to shill for her?

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I am not a perfect man. I have told lies far worse than what you are accusing Ms. Rhee of, so the last thing I would do is condemn her for stretching on her resume, which I suspect puts her with a large portion of Americans. If that disqualifies her in your eyes so be it. She is good enough for the mayor of DC, she was able to reach agreement on a historic labor contract in DC, and she has helped support teachers in DC so that the achievment of student in DC could be raised. I’m not going to sweat her for a bio she may, or may not, have had a hand in writing a decade ago.

And stretching a resume just crept up into the top 50,000 concerns I have about education in this country. Congrats.

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The “official bio” first appeared on the New Teacher Project; the organization that Michelle Rhee founded! You’re going to claim Happy Teacher, that Michelle Rhee didn’t know what bio was listed on the website of organization that she herself founded?

God I’d love to be one of Happy Teacher’s students?

Happy Teacher: You don’t have your homework?
Student: Oh I did it; I just gave it to Robin Roberts so she could feature it on Good Morning America
Happy Teacher: I’m so happy!

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I notice you won’t answer a tough question that would force you to defend the logical implications of your point of view. If you saw an advertisement for a doctor, and it said “As featured on Good Morning America and in the Wall Street Journal” and he had never been mentioned in either, you are going to claim you would have every bit the same bit of confidence in him?

Really?

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Let me just apologize to the readers of this blog, I got sucked into a pointles, circular argument with someone pushing an extremist point of view that doesn’t represent the views of caring Georgia educators. I am sorry for wasting your time. Lesson learned, tail tucked between legs. I feel silly now.

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The bottom line is this: if you are going to fire, or threaten to fire close to 1,000 teachers you better conduct yourself with a level of integrity that warrants the trust to support you in making life changing decisions of that magnitude. Rhee clearly has not demonstrated that level of integrity.

On the other hand, the fact that 80% of DC teachers went along with this scheme may be Rhee’s most compelling evidence that there are scores of incompetent teachers in DC.

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@5:38 Maureen stated 700+ more teachers placed on the min effective list and will be let go if scores dont increase.

Rhee will not be able to replace them. Who is going to move into DC, high crime, high rent, low pay, and BS one has to put up from Rhee.

Got a feeling there is going to be a huge walk out. The teachers in DC do have a Union, if they walk out for one or two weeks that will change Rhee’s attitude quickly.

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[...] Michelle Rhee fires 241 under performing teachers in Washington. Can you fire your way to better schools? | Get Schooled #edu Filed under: education — coopmike48 @ 7:08 am Michelle Rhee fires 241 under performing teachers in Washington. Can you fire your way to better sch…. [...]

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Are people commenting on here familiar with the growth model? It takes a look at where children begin the year and then looks at where they are at the end of the year. Thus, students with disabilities and those who don’t speak English are looked at in such a way that their GROWTH is looked at…..not whether they are on grade level or not.

The growth model is a much better and fairer model than the one we are using now. The current model assumes all children are the same and that we should be able to get them all on grade level by the end of 2013. Comparing classrooms and teachers with our current method makes no sense. THAT is insane and unfair!

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Interesting comment on leadership. Do good leaders indulge in witch hunts? Do they “lead” through fear and intimidation?

Good leaders have no need to “inflate” their resumes. If I “inflated” my resume, I would be out of work, and I would never again be able to find work in education.

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@Vince

the growth model you explains makes sense thats why it will never fly.

GA and other states are on this “one size fits all” mandate.

Now this is way off topic but im listening to TV and just heard a Covergirl commerical about all the different shades and how one size does NOT fit all. If you follow government plans shouldnt there be only one kind of makeup and brand.

A makeup company knows more than the policitans and admin we got.

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Michelle Rhee is a product of the Broad Superintendents Academy. To understand Michelle Rhee, you need to understand Eli Broad. I suggest that readers of this blog learn about him. He gave an interview in the Bloomberg News Letter which is particularly informative. It can be accessed on the web.
Eli Broad, who started his career as an account, is an advocate of the free market. After all, it made him a billionaire. He wants to turn public education into a free market enterprise. Broad believes that a top-down business strategy is the way to do it. The purpose of the Broad Superintendents Academy is to create top-down managers like Michelle Rhee, Debra Gist, and Robert Bobb.
Eli Broad is attempting to dismantle public education. I’m a bean counter just like Eli Broad. I assure you that a public school system which offers teachers $20K to $30K bonuses on top of a 21% salary increase is not sustainable. Such pay-outs will not generate the revenue necessary to continue future salary and bonuses. Schools are not Fortune 500 corporations.
Furthermore, mass firings based on an unproven evaluation tool such as IMPACT seriously threatens to deplete the district work force, as well as draw attention away from factors, other than teacher performance, that are causing students to fail.
Michelle Rhee fired 241 teachers this year and gave 737 teachers notice that they will be fired next year if they don’t improve. The D.C. District teacher work force is only 4,000 teachers. It will not survive such a continuous turnover of personnel.
Parents, your kids are in jeopardy. Wise up before it is too late!

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Everyone on this blog is going to jump on me for this, but I truly don’t care anymore. This is my opinion and if you don’t like it, you can pound sand. It has been my experience after 15 years of teaching that women administrators fall into one of two categories: A) Completely hands off and lazy B) Completely over-involved and micromanaging. I have never met a female principal that was worth a plug nickel. My current one is of the latter type and truly makes teaching a chore. We have the highest turnover rate in the county and each year more and more females are hired into admin positions while males are shunned. Ms. Rhee is a shining example of the problems we face.

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Mass firings are usually a good thing and I would say in this case they are a GREAT thing. Everyone knows these become so entrenched it almost impossible to get rid of them.

Mass firings cull out the deadwood and get rid of the bad blood. Therefore the answer to the question is NO! You may not keep your job because you are FIRED!!

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There is crap everywhere you go, but where will she find more teachers…someone said it earlier; they should look at the hiring process. Testing data is driving their decision….this is nothing more than a symptom to the bigger problem which is creating media to continually beat up on the profession of American educators and painting the image that American educators are not worth teaching our children….so now it will look good to the public to hire foreign teachers. This will be more political fodder to allow other education agenda that will continue to cripple us as a nation through destroying our educational system thus affecting our ability of economic success. In the same respect, there are teachers that need to let go.

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“Let me just apologize to the readers of this blog, I got sucked into a pointles, circular argument with someone pushing an extremist point of view that doesn’t represent the views of caring Georgia educators”

So desperate to shill, first you tried to dismiss the serious ethical concerns about Rhee doing “damage control” in a case involving allegations of inappropriate contact with a minor, because of the source. Then when it turned out the source was none other than the Congressional Record, you had nothing to say.

Next you tried to dismiss the ethical considerations concerning her unsubstantiated resume, again claiming the source but then when other reputable sources were produced-including the website of the organization she founded-that you could not refute, you all but admitted it was no big deal if Rhee lied on her resume, and now, realizing how far you have gone in your attempt to shill, you can only resort to an ad hominen attack by claiming people who think educators should act in an ethical manner is an “extremist” point of view?

It’s an “extremist” point of view to raise concerns about an educator who, according to the Congressional Record, sought to do “damage control” to shield a politician from charges he had inappropriate contact with a minor? Really Happy Teacher? A “caring” educator such as yourself has no concerns about that?

No wonder you’re leaving, tail tucked between your legs!

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Is it possible that Ms. Rhee’s real agenda is to get rid of older, experienced, and therefore more expensive teachers and replace them with younger, less experienced, and less expensive teachers? Also, it is somewhat interesting that under Washington DC’s new teacher evaluation system, only 16% of the workforce is rated as highly effective and they’re the only ones eligible for any bonuses and/or merit pay under the new system.

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“When you are in the profession that supposed to influence others, it is perfectly valid to judge quality of your work based on what those you are supposed to influence perform, isn’t it?”

What a STUPID comment/question. The answer is no. If most of my class does not if they are going to get a meal when they leave school, worry if mom or dad will be home, or will be evicted from their hotel, or worry if they have to miss school because they have to take a part time job. School is the next to last thing on their minds, and some stupid standardized test is the LAST thing on their mind.
How is a teacher supposed to influence that? I had a student who was absent 60% of the time before the CRCT test, is that going to be MY FAULT if the child does not pass?

What an absolutely STUPID MORONIC idea it is to judge teachers based on the performance of their students. ABSOLUTELY STUPID!

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http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2010/07/23/jk.rhee.school.teacher.firings.cnn.html

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Thanks for posting the video “Happy Teacher”. Watching it really solidified my theory about Ms. Rhee’s hidden agenda. She actually says that when they had to do layoffs, they had to let the younger and better teachers go. Also, they had to lay off many more of them since they were not commanding the higher salaries as the older, more experienced teachers. Now, I assume, under this new contract, she can get rid of the more expensive teachers first. It’s really an ingenious, fail-safe system to save lots of money and garner political points—–label the older teachers ineffective and get rid of them, in favor of the younger, cheaper, and so-called “effective” teachers. Then, in about five years, when those teachers quit because of the low pay or because they just can’t hack it anymore, Rhee can replace them with more newbies just out of college, Or if some of those teachers decide to stay on in teaching and start making too much money, Rhee can start labeling them as “ineffective”, fire them, and then hire a new round of younger, cheaper, and “effective” teachers. She is a slick one, this Michelle Rhee.

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I’ve been teaching for twenty years now and I have seen the gamut in teachers from the worst to the best. Believe me, the bad ones don’t last very long. If the principals do their jobs, they can get rid of them. Anyway, they’ve had so many different types of “educational reform” just in the time I’ve been teaching, it’s ridiculous! From phonics to whole language and back again, from indirect to direct instruction, the “new math”, etc., the list goes on. Since NCLB, the focus has been on standardized testing in math and reading to the detriment of the other subjects. Teaching to the tests have become rampant in the schools. Unfortunately, Race to the Top continues this emphasis on testing and punishes schools and teachers who work with the poorest, neediest, and most challenging children. If anyone wants to learn more about the wrong path this is taking us, please read “THE DEATH AND LIFE OF THE GREAT AMERICAN SCHOOL SYSTEM” BY DIANE RAVITCH. Ms. Ravitch was a former US Asst. Sec. of Educ. under Bush and a great supporter of NCLB, until she was confronted by the research that it was actually hurting education. Also, see http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2010/03/05/diane-ravitch-education-has-become-search-and-destroy-mission-and-teachers-are-the-targets/

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