Federal study: Charter schools no more successful in improving achievement, attendance or behavior
As regular readers know, I have concerns about the General Assembly’s zeal for charter schools, which I consider a quick fix approach to education based largely on renaming schools rather than reforming them.
I like charter schools; I just don’t think they are the answer to under-performing schools. Nor are they a surrogate for the challenging work of improving teacher quality.
And here’s a new federal study — the first large-scale randomized trial of the effectiveness of charter schools in multiple states and types of communities — that underscores my concerns that lawmakers believe that turning schools into charters is all they need to do to improve education in Georgia. (Legislators claim that they have other reform ideas, but take a look at the significant legislation of the past four years.)
This study has been long awaited and will spark a lot of debate. Let’s start it here.
Many years ago, when charters were just appearing on the education horizon, I attended a program at UNC where a speaker predicted that the most likely benefit of charter schools would be higher parental satisfaction because parents chose the school and thus were more likely to see positive effects, even if the academics were not better. That led to a spirited discussion among the reporters over whether parental satisfaction, in the absence of measurable improvements in key areas, was enough to deem a reform successful.
Our view was that it was not. I still feel that way. There has to be more reason to support charters than parents feel good about them.
I recall one of the deans of Southern education reporting talking about how he found parents were often pleased with their school and their children’s teachers, even when the school was under performing.
I also want to note that the comment in this press statement — that while charters on average don’t outperform their traditional counterparts, there are wide variations among charter schools — is true of all schools.
From the Institute of Education Sciences of the U.S. DOE:
Charter middle schools popular enough to hold admission lotteries are, on average, no more successful than nearby traditional public schools in boosting student achievement, behavior, and school attendance according to a new evaluation released today by the Institute of Education Sciences. However, charter schools vary widely ‐‐ some are more effective and others less effective than nearby traditional public schools.
Those located in large urban areas and those serving disadvantaged students are the most successful. “This study adds to a growing body of evidence on this important policy issue,” said IES Director John Easton. “We examined academic progress, but we also dug deeper to try to understand more bout the variability of charter school outcomes and why some are more or less effective than traditional public schools.”
The Evaluation of the Impact of Charter Schools was conducted with 2,330 students who applied to 36 charter middle schools that held lotteries for admission. The study was directed by the National Center for Education Evaluation within IES and conducted by Mathematica Policy Research and its partners.
The study focuses on students who attended charter middle schools, usually grades 5 through 8, and who attended a school in operation two years or more. These schools had to be popular enough have a lottery because that allowed researchers to compare two similar groups of students, one offered admission to the charter they applied to and one not offered admission. On average, the participating charter middle schools served more advantaged students than other charter middle schools nationally.
The study charter schools had lower numbers of students eligible for free or reduced‐price lunch (44 percent to 62 percent nationally) and smaller percentages of students below proficiency on state assessments when they applied to the charter school (34 percent versus 49 percent in math). Additionally, fewer African‐American students attended the study charter schools than other charter schools nationally (16 percent versus 29 percent).
In each charter school, impacts were estimated by comparing average achievement outcomes among lottery winners with those of lottery losers over the 2 years following the lottery. Researchers compared performance on state math and reading tests, but because the tests varied by grade and from state to state, the scores were converted to a comparable scale.
Key findings from the evaluation include:
On average, study charter schools did not have a statistically significant impact on student achievement. However, the averages mask wide variation across the charter schools in how well their lottery winners performed relative to the lottery losers, who typically went back to their neighborhood schools.
Study charter schools did not significantly affect most other outcomes examined, except for parent and student satisfaction. These outcomes included absences, suspensions, and other measures of performance, as well as survey‐based measures of effort in school, student well‐being, behavior and attitudes, and parental involvement. However, lottery winners were 12 percentage points more likely and their parents were 33 percentage points more likely to say they were more satisfied with their schools than lottery losers.
Study charter schools were more effective for lower-income and lower achieving students and less effective for higher-income and higher-achieving students. On average, lottery winners with initial low test scores and lottery winners from low‐income families benefited academically from admission to charter schools (in math) while their more advantaged counterparts did not. However, there were no significant differences in charter school impacts for other student subgroups—such as those defined by race, ethnicity, and gender.
The variation in student achievement impacts among charter schools may be related to certain school characteristics. Charter schools in large urban areas, those serving more lower‐income or more lower‐achieving students produced positive impacts on student math scores relative to other nearby school options. Charter schools outside of large urban areas, those serving fewer low‐income students, and those serving higher‐achieving students had negative impacts on test scores. Less negative impacts were found in smaller charter schools and those more likely to use ability grouping.
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177 comments Add your comment
Dunwoody Mom
June 29th, 2010
10:09 am
Basically backs up what Diane Ravitch says in her book. I wonder if Arne Duncan will respond to this study? I doubt it.
john konop
June 29th, 2010
10:22 am
The problem with the education community at times is poor research like this is even published and taken for gospel.
1) Anyone who knows anything about research methods would not look at charter schools on a MACRO since the schools use different curriculum, strategies, focus on serving different student needs…….. This is VERY BASIC concept taught in the most basic research methods class.
2) What the study should of done is look at the common factors of successful charter schools against the common factors of unsuccessful charter schools.
It seems the education establishment is either purposely manipulating studies for a political agenda and or incompetent.
North Fulton Parent
June 29th, 2010
10:22 am
This confirms exactly what many in my community have long felt. Charters may be appropriate in some areas but in many others, there is very low community support for diverting funds away from successful local schools towards an unproven concept. Rushing to create charters without understanding this dynamic has led and will continue to lead to more backlash if it continues.
john konop
June 29th, 2010
10:32 am
BTW I am really not advocating for or against charter schools. My instincts tell me that it could have a roll in public education by creating specialize choices and or helping impoverished areas with poor school performance.
With that said the key to understand the success or failure of a project is letting the facts drive the results not an agenda.
Will T
June 29th, 2010
10:36 am
This is exactly what I have always said about charters. Now, a study reveals it – charters are the same as all other schools. If parents put as much time into their home schools as they do charters, the home schools would be just as good!
EducationCEO
June 29th, 2010
10:49 am
Maureen, anyone who has followed your blog for any period of time knows how you feel about charter schools, so let me pose a few questions:
1. How would you feel, say, if you made about $15-20K less and could not afford to live in the community in which you live and your kids were zoned for sub-par schools? Not just in terms of performance, but leadership, course offerings, etc.? What would you do?
2. Since school districts are only motivated to improve schools when additional funds come into play, how do you feel about that?
3. I am glad this study noted that there are some variations when looking at individual schools, that’s the key. When you start looking at individual schools (not even charters) in Georgia and start examining how racially segregated they are, then look at the programs offered at schools in more affluent zones/clusters, you can see why some parents (mostly minority and low-income) welcome charter schools. Case in point: Gwinnett County got approval to open the Math, Science, and Technology charter school a few years ago in Duluth. For the first 2 years the school DID NOT offer transportation. How is a parent who lives in Snellville/Loganville/Lilburn but works in downtown Atlanta supposed to get their kid to school AND pick-up if they have a full-time job (they want to keep), and still get their child to Duluth? Better yet, why didn’t Gwinnett open that school in an area where the innovative robotics/technology programs do not exist in traditional schools? Or how about this one: why would the State Board of Education (SBOE) even approve that charter when the lack of transportation was an obvious barrier for minority and low-income kids? But I digress because not everyone can see the blatant push to keep some schools in Gwinnett segregated.
4. What are those of us who cannot afford private school supposed to do? Please don’t say get involved because I have been involved. The people who run the schools in Gwinnett look at Black parents like they are crazy when they begin to ask questions. I am a college-educated parent so that makes it worse, especially when you know more about the law than these building overseers, er principals.
What do you suggest? If I may, I suggest that you start focusing on the tough issues involving Georgia’s schools. Especially when districts get favoritism with opening exclusive charter schools and community-based groups are told they have to provide transportation or have millions of dollars before the board will even consider their petitions. I’ve already covered those issues in my blog but my issues cater to a different crowd than the followers you have on the AJC blog.
The big picture
June 29th, 2010
10:49 am
There’s is a key phrase very early is this blog that strikes at the heart of what’s wrong with this blog.
It’s not what the phrase says, it’s what the phrase leaves out; it’s much more important than anything that follows about charter schools, because the phrase shows, at a very fundamental level, that this blog is not willing to honestly discuss education issues.
The question is, out of 400,000 readers who will get it, call the blog moderator on it, and start demanding an honest accounting of what we really need to do to fix our failing schools?
lynn
June 29th, 2010
10:50 am
But this is the important part of the study in my opinion…
Study charter schools were more effective for lower-income and lower achieving students and less effective for higher-income and higher-achieving students
This is where the real challenge in education is. It isn’t with upper class students whose parents are high achievers. It is with those students who lack the basic support at home to do well.
In schools that serve primarily low income, low achieving students it is difficult to change the culture of the school.. Charter schools that serve this population seem to be able to do this.
john konop
June 29th, 2010
10:53 am
Will T,
If I blended the results after graduation of students from Georgia Tec with junior colleges across Georgia without taking into any consideration curriculum, major, students, degree, cost of school…….and claimed that spending all that money all college is not worth it what would you think?
This study is a bad joke.
Dunwoody Mom
June 29th, 2010
10:55 am
Lynn, perhaps we need to tighten up the requirements for creating Charter Schools, instead of approving just about every school that applies. I have read a couple of the charter applications on the GADOE website. I’m not sure how some of them were even approved – there was little to no substance.
catlady
June 29th, 2010
10:56 am
Ms. Downey: What are “deans of Southern education?”
So, it seems like the findings are: It depends. Maybe, or maybe not. Could work in some situations. Can’t really tell. Well, I hope not a lot of money was spent on this study!
Here is what I would like to see: Two schools, side by side, in the same community. Both buildings with similar amenities, but one has the word “Charter” over the door. Students from the area are assigned to the schools by matching certain characteristics: ie, race, SES., family makeup. Teachers are assigned randomly. No special curriculum is used, no parental responsibilities are required.
At the end of the year, I am guessing those ‘chosen” for the “charter” school will report higher satisfaction and slightly higher achievement. Just because of the cachet of being part of a new “charter” school.
Similar experiment: Let families apply for the charter school. Same random teachers, same curriculum. I would predict even higher satisfaction reported by those chosen students and their parents, and even higher achievement rates, given a) the effect of the cachet, b) the effect of being one of the “chosen’, c) those who apply for the school would demographically be different from those who did not.
I’d love to see this tried out. I also think the positive effects of these two experiments would decrease over time.
I actually live where something similar has happened. No charter school for 70 miles, but the county recently opened a new middle school (the county had always had just one). Even though it is the same teachers who had been at the other school, and the same curriculum, there is a perception, perhaps because the building is new, that it is a higher-achieving school, even though it draws the majority of ELL kids in the county, which might tend to lower average test scores.
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June 29th, 2010
10:58 am
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catlady
June 29th, 2010
11:06 am
Education CEO: your number 3 is a point very well taken. The barriers we place, and the intentional or unintentional collateral effects are rarely taken into account.
In my area, the Latinos “discovered” the library about 10 years ago, and were heavy users of it–especially the adult males, who used it for internet mostly. The county decided it needed a bigger building–it did–but it just so happened to “find” the land to put it waayy away from the center of town. Now: problem solved! Few of “those people” use it any more. Was it planned that way? I don’t know, but any idiot could have predicted that those of any race with transportation problems would find using the new library difficult. I hate it because many of my students, who either lived in town or came to the center of town for their parents to shop at the tiendas, now are not tied into this valuable service.
Maureen Downey
June 29th, 2010
11:08 am
@Dunwoody Mom, An interesting fact to me is that there are schools that the commission has approved over the recommendation of its panel of evaluators. Seems to me that is always risky.
Maureen
lynn
June 29th, 2010
11:13 am
I totally agree, Dunwoody Mom. The schools in Henry and White Counties (the former a commission school, the latter is not) are total jokes, meant to allow segregation or either race, ethnicity or class.
I happen to think, though, that what we are doing for low income children in most schools isn’t working and something needs to change.
Gwinnett Parent
June 29th, 2010
11:13 am
EducationCEO, what schools in Gwinnett would you consider segregated?
EducationCEO
June 29th, 2010
11:15 am
@DunwoodyMom I hope you read a few of those that were denied because their (majority-minority_ governing boards were told they were not qualified enough to handle the daily affairs of a charter school. Did anyone else notice that the Commission, until recently, didn’t even have the required number of members? Probably not.
Teacher Reader
June 29th, 2010
11:16 am
Much research in education is flawed. With all schools (public, charter, and private) there are good and bad. I have been in too many excellent charter schools that blow many “good” public schools out of the water to say that Charter School don’t make a difference.
If you lived in a school district where the schools were under performing, a charter school that offers hope and opportunity for your child is a welcomed sight.
Having been in many successful charter schools, a few qualities that I saw in most of them were: 1. Longer school year and day., 2. Teachers who were able to think outside the box to deliver lessons., 3. Teachers who were excited about teaching., 4. Teachers are part of the decision making process (There is no large group of administrators making all decisions)., 5. Student achievement is monitored and talked about with all stake holders.
EducationCEO
June 29th, 2010
11:20 am
@Gwinnett Parent It’s not really a matter of schools but almost entire clusters. ‘White Flight’ has impacted some areas negatively. Diversity is important to me but obviously there are a lot of White people who do not believe that Blacks and Latinos value education. I think it’s unfortunate and the kids will suffer. Charter school can address this issue because if you offer an arts-themed charter, more affluent parents would be willing to bring their kids back to a certain area. I am speaking from experience.
Gwinnett Parent
June 29th, 2010
11:26 am
EducationCEO, yes the reason I mentioned that was because Gwinnett has seen quite a lot of white flight to Forsyth in recent years. Much of Gwinnett has suffered because of this and unfortunately, I know more than a few people that would love to send their kids to “whiter” charters. What good is bringing more affluent parents back to certain area if they intend to promote a segregated lifestyle as a condition of living in that area? My second concern is when you strip out the most involved parents out of the existing schools, is it really feasible to expect what remains to rise to the “competitive” challenge posed by charters?
EducationCEO
June 29th, 2010
11:40 am
@GwinnettParent Sorry, I think you misunderstood what I meant by affluent parents bringing their kids back. I don’t care about where they live, so long as we have diversity in our schools. For example: If we had an arts-themed school in the South Gwinnett cluster, we would have a lottery to see who gets in. I already know that people living in North Gwinnett and other clusters would be interested in driving their kids back to this area for a school like that. sadly, I hear that the BOE now has plans to open an arts-themed school, even though they made it clear that a charter school of that nature (schedule, grade levels, etc) would not work. I am sure this school will also be located in a place inaccessible to those families who wanted it in the southern part of the county.
DunMoody
June 29th, 2010
11:58 am
I agree that this “study” likely resounds with those like our wonderful moderator (sorry, Ms. Downey) who see it as validation – but there simply is not a valid statistical foundation to its findings.
Charters are perceived as more successful because they do involve choice – one and all require parental involvement, which means that parents are welcomed by administrations. We’re all human. When we get to choose something, and we get to have a say in how things are done, we feel more connected. That certainly includes our children’s schools. Sadly, many “traditional” school models prefer to keep parents outside, particularly if administrators or teachers or the county level management want total control of the schoolhouse.
Charter status gives schools much-needed autonomy from pedagogy-du-jour, county level mismanagement, one-size-fits-all curricula and materials, etc. And yes, it’s ridiculous that only Charters get that kind of flexibility.
True education innovation would bring Charter attributes into every school in the nation – including REQUIRING parent involvement, innovation, and autonomous use of funding and materials to fit the specific needs of the children attending that school.
The big picture
June 29th, 2010
12:02 pm
Back and forth, back and forth, all the while the key issue, which in one key phrase totally exposed this blog’s bias, gets ignored.
400,000 readers; surely one of them is willing to post and hold this blog accountable.
Jennifer
June 29th, 2010
12:11 pm
So just for fun. Compare the report card results on the above three indicators : Free Lunch/Students Performing below proficiency on Math/ and African American population. Compare between two charters in Gwinnett: Gwinnett Math and Science vs Ivy Prep
I think you see some interesting results. The charter school built by the district -GMST or the independent charter rejected twice by the Gwinnett Board of Education – Ivy Prep
DunMoody
June 29th, 2010
12:17 pm
Stuck in the filter? Words fail me!
lyncoln
June 29th, 2010
12:18 pm
john konop,
The study suggests that further research should be done to follow up on your 2nd point. The study wasn’t intended to follow your 2nd point, so of course it won’t answer your question.
I don’t understand what you mean by “not look at charter schools on a MACRO”. What does that even mean? The study compared results of the students that went into the charter school lottery. They compared the results of the students in the charter school based on the lottery with their peers who didn’t get into the charter school based on the lottery.
Apparently, there is an improvement in mathematics for low-income students who got into charter schools. The study recommends that further research should be set up to see why this is happening.
It’s a very interesting study. I would like to see some follow up on why there is an achievement bump.
It’s interesting that the study found that teacher experience seemed to have little influence on the student results in this particular study.
There must be at least some difference between extremely new teachers and more experienced teachers, but I’m unfamiliar with any information on this. Does anyone have a link or study handy?
EducationCEO
June 29th, 2010
12:29 pm
@Jennifer But also keep in mind that GMST only has a handful (that’s being generous) of minority students, whereas IVY is predominantly minority. The flaw with this study is that they grouped charters together. I am sure that’s what the anti-charter backers wanted them to do. Instead of repeating this same study they need to start looking at individual charters, state-by-state, since there is no way to compare academic achievement of a school in Georgia compared to one in Massachusetts, Vermont, etc.
EnoughAlready
June 29th, 2010
12:36 pm
EducationCEO
June 29th, 2010
12:29 pm
Actually GSMST is mostly minorities, just not african-american or hispanics.
Dunwoody Mom
June 29th, 2010
12:53 pm
How can you compare Gwinnett Math and Ivy Prep? Ivy Prep is a Middle School. Gwinett Math and Science a HS?
Wondering
June 29th, 2010
12:54 pm
So, in the study, those accepted at the charter school had a lower rate of free or reduced lunch, lower level of minorities, and smaller percentage below proficiency on state assessments. These are three factors usually used to separate out those most likely to be successful in school, yet the charter schools didn’t show this advantage.
I fully expect charter proponents to point out the flaws in the study (all studies have flaws) and opponents to point to the results. More studies have to be done, but we also need to be realistic. Lumping charters into one-size fits all is just as bad as doing it with traditional schools.
There are so many variables to control for, and so much disagreement on which variables to consider. What really concerns me is that while we spin, other countries have realized they need to focus on their brightest, and they are doing so. In the mean time we insist on pouring more money at the least likely to succeed.
The big picture
June 29th, 2010
12:57 pm
Such spirited debate! Thrust and parry, sound and fury! Signifying nothing as the one phrase, and what it omits, that shows what is fundamentally wrong with our approach to fixing our failing schools is ignored.
But if 400,000 readers can’t figure this out, and hold this blog accountable for addressing it, maybe Georgia deserves its continual ranking among the bottom.
The sad thing is, while the adults may deserve their failing schools, the children certainly do not.
EducationCEO
June 29th, 2010
1:04 pm
@The Big Picture You keep posting the same comment: ‘But if 400,000 readers….’ What do you offer as a suggestion?
@Enough Already You are correct, but most conversations regarding disparities refer to under-served groups, e.g., Black/Latino/SWD/ELL/FARL (same as AYP subgroups), as those groups have less access to schools such as GSMT since they are not located in or near minority communities. As I stated earlier, during the first 2 years of operation the school did not provide transportation either.
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
1:19 pm
Ok, lets look at Ivy Prep vs. Lanier Middle – Ivy Prep mostly black and hispanic. Lanier mostly white. My daughter who is black hated Lanier. She was spoken to like she was stupid and the teachers even spoke to me and my husband like we were idiots. Both by the way are Army vets and college grads. Ivy Prep WONDERFUL atmosphere. The whole entire adminstration cares about my daughter. If she didnt do well on a test, they informed me right away, they didnt wait until her entire grade was low. We’ve been at Hopewell Christian Academy, Sugar Hill Elementary, back to Hopewell, to Lanier Middle and now wer’re at Ivy Prep. We arent leaving. The girls help one another all the time. I dont know how many of the children would/could/should be on free lunch or anything like that but I do know that all of the parents care!!! Before you judge all charter schools and think that they dont work. Go and look for yourselves and stop listening to other people. Ivy Prep would love to give tours to anyone who is interested. Just call and ask. See with your own eyes. I dont want anything handed to my child, I want her to work for EVERYTHING like her father and I have!! Sometimes, change is good people.
@Ivyprepmom
June 29th, 2010
1:25 pm
What do you want to bet Ivy Prep doesn’t falsify discipline data, like has been done so often regular Gwinnett County schools? You think that might have something to do with the fact that Ivy Prep is so well regarded?
catlady
June 29th, 2010
1:27 pm
IVYPREP MOM: I am glad you have found somewhere that you are happy. I would have liked my daughters to go to a female school. (They both graduated from women’s colleges).
Keep your daughter in one place! Let her thrive!
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
1:36 pm
Im pretty sure that the school doesnt falsify anything. The staff there is big on integrity for ALL. They teach by example and it is great. I know for a fact that Lanier lies out right. My kid had a bully 1st day!!
Bottom line is that we have found a place that works for us and I wish that all of you who dont approve would just not approve from afar. I dont come to your neighborhoods starting trouble for your kids. Stop causing stress for my kid. Gwinnett County schools did do what I needed them to do for MY child. Doesnt mean that it doesnt or cant work for anyone elses. But why should I have to move, why cant I just choose a different school. If you’re happy then be happy but leave me and mine alone!!!
Dunwoody Mom
June 29th, 2010
1:46 pm
Just curious, what is the Special Education and ELL enrollment at Ivy Prep?
GtMom
June 29th, 2010
1:48 pm
As a mother who graduated with a Masters in Engineering.. I find this whole study ridiculous. I went to high performing high school…and that school taught me how to take tests.. I, then, went on to GA Tech. It took a couple quarters (shows how old I am) but I learned the hard way that grades/test scores mean nothing. I had to learn how to think. Even now, I see graduates who have learned the art of taking tests and performing “well” (same cycle I fell in to but fixed while at Tech). Performing “well” on a test does not mean that you can be creative and think on your own. The kids graduating from college now are having a hard time doing real world examples because they only learned how to take tests.
I don’t care what my sons make on a Standarized Test or how they perform compared to others. All I care about is that they can use the tools given to them to come up with creative and innovative ways to solve problems. So if I get to choose and I do, I prefer to put my children in a school that teaches creativity not test taking. The traditional schools seemed to have forgotten how to teach kids to learn and spend more time teaching test taking skills so that the kids perform “well” on a standarized test. I have even heard that some Cobb County High schools devote a whole class on learning to take the SAT (WHAT????)…. what a waste! How is that supposed to teach kids to think???
Results like these mean nothing to me. I would be more interested in seeing results from the working force – who is sucessful from what groups of schools? High test scores in primary education does not mean that our kids will succeed. (for example in the early 90’s, I watched in horror at Tech as my High School valedictorian flunked out and her SAT score was a 1530/1600.)
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
1:49 pm
Im not sure, but we do a lottery so its not like anyone has any special treatment. I’ll call and ask though!!
Dunwoody Mom
June 29th, 2010
1:52 pm
Oh, I’m pretty sure there is more to the admissions process than a lottery.
Maureen Downey
June 29th, 2010
2:02 pm
@Dunwoody, I think students have to live in certain communities for which the charter is zoned. Parents usually have to sign a contract at most charter schools. Otherwise, the admission should be no different than any other school. Lotteries are required when too many kids apply. The law allows preference for siblings and for children of the founding board. I have attended two lottery drawings for new charters and it is a pretty straightforward process.
Maureen
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
2:07 pm
@Dunwoody Mom – No there isnt. Just because you dont like the concept doesnt mean that you know everything about it. I applied to the school, I filled out the paperwork required to get into any school, and I won!! Fair and square. I didnt pay anyone, I didnt bribe anyone. I just took a shot at a good school for my daughter and God answered our prayers to get her out of Lanier Middle.
Exactly what more could there be to it? Tell me what you are thinking since you know so much about a program that you havent even seen work with your own eyes.
Its truly ashame how people just assume that they know everything.
catlady
June 29th, 2010
2:07 pm
Dunwoody Mom: Well, the first hoop is you have to apply. That right there cuts out a lot of kids.
The big picture
June 29th, 2010
2:11 pm
@EducationCEO
A big hint is your own post:
1. How would you feel, say, if you made about $15-20K less and could not afford to live in the community in which you live and your kids were zoned for sub-par schools? Not just in terms of performance, but leadership, course offerings, etc.? What would you do?
Notice how Maureen completely skipped over it, and answered a softball to DunwoodyMom instead, because answering yours would force her, albeit hypothetically to walk the walk?
There is a built in bias in this blog, and fundamental dishonesty when it comes to discussing educational issues on this blog. Now maybe the term fundamental dishonesty is too strong, as one thing you can say about the blog moderator, more than maybe any other AJC columnist, is that she will allow even the most vociferous of criticisms of this blog to be posted.
But the built in bias is readily evident in her comments on the study; not so much it what she says, but what she, as always, omits.
A couple have commented on this in the past, but if 400,000 readers don’t get it, and don’t call into account the major newspaper that can shine a light on it, then maybe the people of Georgia are getting the failing schools they deserve.
The sad thing is, the children in those schools don’t
EnoughAlready
June 29th, 2010
2:11 pm
When I saw this article today, I reminded me of the discussion on this blog. This is dedication at it’s finest. If you have time read the article “100 percent of school’s first class college-bound” by the Associated Press.
“Urban Prep would be a charter high school. It would bring together some 150 boys from some of the poorest, gang-ravaged neighborhoods and try to set them on a new track. They’d have strict rules: A longer school day — by two hours. Two classes of English daily. A uniform with jackets and ties.
And Urban Prep had a goal — one that seemed audacious, given that just 4 percent of the Class of 2010 was reading at or above grade level when they arrived at the school in 2006.”
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
2:11 pm
BTW, The girls at Ivy Prep 100% of them 6th and 7th grade passed the CRCT Language part!! We must be doing something right!!
catlady
June 29th, 2010
2:13 pm
Ivyprepmom: Actually, you have named several steps (and I don’t think anyone was saying you had bribed anyone in your daughter’s admission! Perhaps you are a bit sensitive toward perceived slights, perhaps for good reason in the past). You had to find out about the school. You had to secure the application. You had to fill it out. Either before or after you “won”, you had to agree to certain things (do you supply transportation, book or other fees, or provide her lunch? Do you have to volunteer?), you had to submit her previous records.
All these are things that kids at regular schools do not have to do, other than fill out an enrollment card. Sometimes they show up on the first day without even that!
Ivy Prep Dad
June 29th, 2010
2:13 pm
@Dunwoody Mom “Child Please!”…Ochocinco
Dunwoody Mom
June 29th, 2010
2:14 pm
Maureen, it’s not the lottery itself that’s the issue. It is what goes on prior to the lottery and after the lottery.
@EnoughAlready
June 29th, 2010
2:17 pm
“Urban Prep would be a charter high school. It would bring together some 150 boys from some of the poorest, gang-ravaged neighborhoods and try to set them on a new track. They’d have strict rules:”
And what can we infer? Strict discipline and academic success walking hand and hand all the way to college. I’ll bet those administrators don’t need extra erasers in their toolkit!
@Ivyprepmom
June 29th, 2010
2:21 pm
BTW, The girls at Ivy Prep 100% of them 6th and 7th grade passed the CRCT Language part!! We must be doing something right!!
IvyPrepmom, tell us if we are wrong, but I bet dollars for donuts there one thing the school has and one thing the school doesn’t have.
Bet it supports its teachers in discipline
Bet its administrators don’t have extra boxes of erasers hidden away for the CRCT!
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
2:24 pm
@Dunwoody Mom – would you please just come out and post exactly what you think is going on!! Stop being so evasive and just say what it is that is on your mind. Please, because all of this before and after crap is just that crap.
@Catlady, I dont know what other schools require. Every school that my child has attended I had to provide some time of paperwork. It is just par for the course when you enroll a child at school. Except for Hopewell Christian Academy and that is because she attended the school more than 1 year in a row. But even when I put her back in after Sugar Hill I didnt have to do anything but fill out a request to transfer her transcript. However, I did have to agree to drive my child to school, there is no bus system for these girls. We also did have to provide lunch but we wont have to next year. We also did have to pay for 2 books that cost maybe $20. I dont have to volunteer unless I want to but I volunteered at the other schools as well. I volunteer at my sons school to but no one says anything about that.
Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
2:25 pm
Ivy Prep to my knowledge is not open to half the student population (males). Please explain how it is equitable for the rest of us to fund a school that has segregation as part of its mission?
@Ivyprepmom
June 29th, 2010
2:25 pm
There IS one thing the school has that is!
DC Dawg
June 29th, 2010
2:27 pm
John konop wrote: “What the study should of (sic) done….
My instincts tell me that it could have a roll (sic)in public education by creating specialize (sic)choices….
the key to understand (sic)the success or failure of a project….”
Folks, if you’re going to contribute to an on-line conversation about education reform, at least use proper grammar and proofread your posts. Otherwise, you look like a complete and illiterate idiot.
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
2:28 pm
@IVYPREP MOM,
Yes our adminstrators do back up the teachers but let me tell you who else backs up our teachers – THE PARENTS!!! We hold our girls accountable for their grades and behavior!! At all times.
HStchr
June 29th, 2010
2:29 pm
GtMom- I used to teach an SAT prep class in another county (I wrote the program for it). It was an elective class that kids could choose to take. What we quickly discovered was that our college-bound juniors and seniors were panicked about the test and were begging to get into the class to help them prepare. I actually taught them valuable critical thinking skills while working on how to take the test. Every kid I taught brought his/her score up and felt much better. While I agree that test taking ceases to matter upon college entrance, it is indeed a big deal when the child is trying to get into competitive schools (especially when they’re trying to stay in state and use HOPE). I highly recommend that students take such a class, especially if they’re a good student who just doesn’t test well. By the time I finished with them, they were calm and ready for the test, and they had valuable vocabulary and reading skills that could be applied to college classes. I’ve heard back from some who said they really have used a lot of what was taught as part of the SAT class.
EnoughAlready
June 29th, 2010
2:29 pm
Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
2:25 pm
Why not just request a seperate charter school for boys? See the article I refereced above for how successful it can be.
catlady
June 29th, 2010
2:30 pm
Oops! And uniforms! So we have a pretty select group already. All these requirements say, “Disposable income.”
Don’t get me wrong! I support single-sex education! But, with hoops like the above, you CANNOT compare Ivy Prep to anything but other Ivy Preps!
I’d love to see incoming data on the girls who are accepted into the program, the student retention rates, and other demographics including sped, ELL, and federal lunch numbers (if any). I see none of that on their website. Also, nothing about the admissions process except it is closed for next year. Will try to find data in the GDOE and report card websites later.
Best wishes to your daughter and the other young women!
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
2:30 pm
Gwinnett Mom, over 90% of the population isn’t open to handicap parking spaces. Are you saying we shouldn’t fund them either?
Jails don’t provide housing for law abiding citizens who haven’t been convicted of a crime. You saying we shouldn’t fund them either?
Maybe we should fund schools that WORK, instead of making a mockery of the REAL segregation that used to take place in the public schools.
Maureen Downey
June 29th, 2010
2:31 pm
@EducationCEO, Here are a few things I think should happen in public education. I think these things would do more for quality than the current belief that we ought to approve more charter schools:
1. No more attendance lines within school systems. You should not be limited by where you live in Cobb or Gwinnett. I think that it is too much to ask for bus transportation under this system, but I think all parents should get a transportation stipend so that parents in one area could pool their stipends and hire a van if all their kids were going to the same public school across town.
2. Let kids test out of classes. Kids should be where they need to be based on where they are. So, if a “sixth” grader is ready for “seventh” grade math, move that child up.
3. If a school system is too small to offer choice within its boundaries, consider allowing kids to cross districts.
4. Worry less if a school is a charter school and more if a school is a good school. And I still see one vital key to good schools: A great principal and smart, dedicated teachers.
5. If a teacher moves kids ahead year after year, pay them more. Measure on a growth model as does Decatur schools. Pay those successful, talented teachers more money. Celebrate them.
6. Test, but do it in third, 5th and 8th grades and make the tests multiple choice, constructive and essay. In high school, give one heck of a test in 11th grade and that’s it in terms of high-stakes graduation testing. Do it early enough in 11th grade to offer help to kids who fail.
7. Within every school system, encourage R&D schools. You don’t have to go through an arduous process to become a special school. Systems should listen to good ideas from their teachers and let them try them. That is how KIPP started in Houston when Rod Paige let two young Teach for America teachers try out their ideas in one wing of a school.
8. I don’t believe that all children learn in the exact same way or to the exact same level, but I do think all children are capable of learning. And I think it is fair to set a minimal level where we expect all students to be. And hope that many more exceed that.
9. Don’t think we can fund schools on the cheap. My favorite scene is a legislator telling me that schools don’t need any more money while his kid attends a school that costs $18,000 a year. For those who argue that many public schools are paying $12,000 per kid, please note that those averages are inflated by the money being spent on kids with special needs. For the most part, the kids with no special needs are getting the same amount of money spent on them today that they were 20 years ago, adjusting for inflation.
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
2:34 pm
@Gwinnett Mom, it is an all girls school. Plain and simple. We just want the money that is allotted to our girls to follow them. What is wrong with that. Why should Lanier Middle get the money for my daughter when they have already failed her. No one wants to address that problem. I dont want your money, I want MINE to follow my child. Very simple. Or else force Lanier to treat my daughter with the respect that she deserves and not treat me like the “angry black woman” when I question what is being said or done to her!!!
Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
2:38 pm
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom… I’m sorry but if you’re going to bring up segregation, please tell me the demographics of Ivy Prep and please compare them to the average public school in Gwinnett. Your examples about handicapped parking spaces and prisons are misguided – handicapping parking spaces and prisons are intended for certain populations – schools are not intended for just young girls… Furthermore, I’m not even opposed to charters, but I just don’t get all this hype of charters offering choice when Ivy Prep clearly does not offer such choice to half the student population.
EnoughAlready, if Ivy Prep accepted both girls and boys and had different classrooms, I could understand. But what I and most parents in my neighborhood don’t understand is how a school can be funded with public money yet not accept all students, regardless of gender.
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
2:39 pm
“@Gwinnett Mom, it is an all girls school. Plain and simple. We just want the money that is allotted to our girls to follow them. What is wrong with that”
Absolutely nothing IvyPrepMom, that’s most likely why when she got called on her “segregation” nonsense, she turned tail and ran.
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
2:41 pm
“Your examples about handicapped parking spaces and prisons are misguided – handicapping parking spaces and prisons are intended for certain populations – schools are not intended for just young girls”
I’m sorry Gwinnett mom; are you reporting that boys are no longer allow to attend school in Gwinnett county?
Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
2:42 pm
Nope, just the opposite, they have every right to attend any school that is publicly funded.
Fedup
June 29th, 2010
2:44 pm
Any charter or public school will be successful if the parents support the school’s efforts, if the leadership has the ability to constantly and effectively monitor instruction, and if the staff is comprised of teachers who know the content and have the know-how/tools to engage the students in a meaningful curriculum. The tools would include technology and the know-how would involve appropriate training based upon best proven practices. The focus would NOT be on standardized testing, but the goal of gauging student achievement levels at the beginning of the school year and moving students forward must be the priority. We are no longer an agrarian society with the dependence upon children to help with farming the land, so a change in the school calendar to promote continuous learning without a three month gap is a necessity. This is a very realistic and practical approach that would need a nation to approve and make happen…sadly, we are more inclined to go with the status quo and sit back while the cycle of falure continues in this country.
Ivy Prep Dad
June 29th, 2010
2:44 pm
Gwinnett Mom you deserve a “Child Please!”…Ochocinco
Title IX single-sex regulations http://www2.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2006/10/10242006.html
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
2:44 pm
@CATLADY – Why would you say paying for uniforms is disposable income? It isn’t when I go school clothes shopping for my 2 kids, I get regular clothes for my son and uniforms for my daughter. There is no extra money spent. Instead of buying her jeans I buy her khakis. Instead of buying her lots of different shirts, I buy 2 of each color, white and green, and keep it going. I honestly spend less on her clothes than my sons clothes.
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
2:45 pm
When like minded parents set up a boys’ school in Gwinnett of equal quality to Ivy Prep, and it gets turned down, then you can talk about “segregation”.
Altanta Peach
June 29th, 2010
2:45 pm
Gwinnett Mom, I love your posts. I too find it so ironic that charter supporters proclaim they just want choice and yet are up and arms over a school that denies choice based on gender. Their true colors shine through brighter everyday.
catlady
June 29th, 2010
2:46 pm
Gwinnett Mom, How about starting a charter focusing on boys and their needs?
ConcernedFultonMom
June 29th, 2010
2:46 pm
Charter schools are another option…they are not the solution for everyone/every community
I will say that living in South Fulton had us seriously considering a charter school for a while.
Why? Because:
1. the parents generally were trying to earn a living and were not really able to be as active
2. I noticed a deliberate pattern from FCBOE whereby they would consistently schedule board meetings/workshops at 10am on weekdays
(if you are a concerned parent but not stay-at-home, too bad for you!)
3. I noticed that administrators regarded most of the active parents as a nuisance and not a help
4. A ridiculous “North vs. South” unspoken feud in which it seemed that North Fulton was able to get the “goods” because of the notion that “they pay more in taxes, thereby their kids should get more resources…” when really, North Fulton was lucky that the development happened there first…
so really, the schools of Fulton are all supposed to have the same resources – but it’s pretty obvious that it is/remains separate and unequal.
Mommy of 2
June 29th, 2010
2:50 pm
I’m interested in this debate because with children, I too want the best choice for my children. But I do agree with Gwinnett Mom, all schools should be open to all genders. Doesn’t seem fair to make everyone fund a school that doesn’t take boys.
The big picture
June 29th, 2010
2:52 pm
Look at the nine things Maureen wrote about. More importantly, think about the one thing she didn’t write about in her prescription for curing the public schools’ ills. Now go back and look at her comments at on the study and what she again, doesn’t mention.
Now if you can’t get more than a couple of readers out of 400,000 to bring this to light, then maybe Georgia deserves the failing schools it has, and will continue to have, into the foreseeable future.
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
2:54 pm
I’m sure Atlanta Peach is willing to be consistent and call for the abolition of all girls’ softball programs in the public schools, because they are only open to girls, and thus are gender biased.
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
2:54 pm
@Atlanta Peach, the point to the all girls part is to focus on the girl aspect!!! Before you ask, no you cannot focus on the wonders of being a girl with boys around. Again, we only want the money that we pay to go to Ivy Prep, not yours. Why do you all keep overlooking that point. It will be funded from the money from our girls portion of the school board money. Not your portion.
Again, why should Lanier Middle get money for a child they are not teaching!!! No one has been able to answer that yet!!
Confused
June 29th, 2010
2:57 pm
Sorry but would some of y’all enlighten me. I’m not up to date on the charter situation. If an applicant to Ivy Prep is male, do they automatically get turned down?
GtMom
June 29th, 2010
2:58 pm
HStchr – I am ok with taking an SAT course.. But I think it would be better served as an extra curricular course – not one to be used during a normal school day. I really don’t see how they have the time. Most college bound students would be better served taking math (up and through Calculus), science (Biology – Macro and Micro, Physics, Inorganic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry), English (including a presentations’ class and a writing class), and Social Sciences. There is not enough time in a normal school day to add Test Prep class. If they do use the time, they should really consider taking on another class at a college to ensure they get all they can get out of high school. And if only a few schools offer the SAT prep class isn’t that skewing the test results. While the school that offers the SAT class may have a higher score, does that mean those students will do better in college than the other schools(students)? I don’t think so. Test taking has not helped me out in my career at all and I was one of the better test takers out there. I find myself being humbled and learning from students who could not get in to Tech because of their scores and got what others considered a lesser degree.
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
2:58 pm
Time for lunch back in an hour. Trust me I’m not done!!
catlady
June 29th, 2010
3:00 pm
Gee whiz, Ivyprepmom! Disposable income includes clothing. ( FYI: Disposable income is your income after taxes are taken out.) You could chose to outfit your child in clothes from the dumpster at Goodwill. Of course, Ivy Prep might not look kindly on that. In regular schools, we have kids who come to school in dirty, torn, smelly cast-off clothing. Are you just looking to argue? It sure seems like it.
I am not defending or denigrating uniforms. But many parents, whose kids do wear yard sale clothes or passed down from the cousin clothes, might find the requirement a barrier. As would be providing their own lunch, their own transportation to school, and other fees. These would be insurmountable obstacles to their attending Ivy Prep or a similar charter school.
Do you know how much Ivy Prep gets per student from state/county coffers? Does it compare well with what Lanier or other schools get? (I have no idea. I have seen some complaints about it because of the bus service/lack of issue, but I don’t know.)
EnoughAlready
June 29th, 2010
3:01 pm
What part of the money follows the child doesn’t those opposed to charter schools not get?
If they take more than what was allotted for that little girl, then you are paying for her to attend charter. However, if she’s getting the same dollars that were to be used at the public non-charter school then you are getting up set over NOTHING.
Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:02 pm
Catlady, I think you have the right idea. I would take Ivy Prep and make it co-ed. You can keep the classrooms separate but if the school is going to receive public funds, it is my opinion it should be open to everyone.
ConcernedFultonMom
June 29th, 2010
3:02 pm
Charter schools offer another option…
I’m not sure why people are upset that Ivy Prep is for girls…other than the fact that in fairness, perhaps Gwinnett should offer an “all boys” option…
of course, the single-gender environment doesn’t work for every family -
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:10 pm
So will Gwinnett Mom be consistent and call for the abolition of all girls softball programs, since softball is only offered to girls in Georgia?
Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:12 pm
No, I would say if a guy wants to play on the softball team, he should be allowed.
Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:12 pm
Same for a girl on the football team.
Dekalb Parent
June 29th, 2010
3:16 pm
I think Gwinnett Mom has bought up some good points that really do need to be considered. I’ll wait to hear back from IvyPrep Mom but it does seem that boys automatically denied admission to Ivy Prep regardless of their qualifications or demeanor. I worry that this sets us down a slippery slope – will we be able to deny a charter catering to white students because they claim white students learn better in the presence of other white students? Charters I think are a great idea, but not so much when they promote segregation on the basis of gender, race or any other physical characteristic.
Atlanta Peach
June 29th, 2010
3:18 pm
Good reply GM, was going to say the same thing!
Fedup
June 29th, 2010
3:23 pm
Concerned Fulton Mom, the problem with South Fulton schools is that there is absolutely no credible representation on the school board on behalf of South Fulton schools. One member, Gail Dean, lives in Sandy Springs and is responsible for areas in S.Springs and S. Fulton – and believe me, has absolutely no interest in South Fulton…the other two are idiots and the other board members run over them like crap through a goose at board meetings. As the demographics have changed in South Fulton and there seems to be a very large inclusion of families/parents who want to see improvement in this area…new blood needs to step up to the plate and run for board election when the terms expire from the current members. I assure you, the manipulative board members from up North have used their cunning, guile, political tactics, and general harrassment of school leaders to get their way…for anyone who thinks things are equal in this district…visit Milton HS and then drive south and visit the newest South Fulton HS – Langston Hughes……see if anything strikes you as odd.
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:23 pm
So a 6′ 5″ 250lbs high school boy who might permanently injure a girl if he were to run into her on the field of play, should be allowed to play girls softball?
And what if twenty boys try out for the team, and the coach picks the best players? Are you just as happy to have 20 boys on a girls softball team, even if that leaves no room for any girls on the girls softball team?
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:26 pm
Go ahead Atlanta Peach tell us if 20 boys try out for the girls softball team, and they happen to be the best 20 players, that you are perfectly fine with having zero girls on the girls softball team.
DunMoody
June 29th, 2010
3:26 pm
My children attended a PUBLIC elementary school – not charter – that, by consensus of the parents, had a uniform dress code. Basic khaki pants, shorts, and skirts, navy/light blue/white polo shirts . . . and I spent far less on clothes than I had when they were in preschool. We didn’t have to buy them from a specific retailer, so we could go for best value. Saying that uniforms indicate some kind of exclusivity is disingenuous. Uniforms are a good deal for parents in terms of budget, fashion squabbles, pecking orders based on labels, and other distractions. I miss those uniforms now that my kids are in Hollister/Abercrombie/North Face/Keen/Sperry land (none of which I will purchase for them).
Back to topic – Maureen’s “brief” on her positions regarding education is spot on. I may not agree with every tenet, but her overview is the measuring stick our state and federal education leaders should take to heart.
Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:26 pm
TTDGM, you could easily have girls doing the same thing. Believe me, we girls can compete if you just give us a chance.
Nikole
June 29th, 2010
3:30 pm
Single-gender schools are awesome. I would hope that districts would offer one for each group in fairness.
Back to the topic, charter schools are a great option in the world of education, but too much is often made of the highly successful ones. People then want to compare them to public schools, but it’s apples and oranges. Involved parents are the key to a student’s success. Charters attract parents involved enough to apply for school. Traditional public schools take whoever comes in the door. We are dealing with parents that didn’t even know when school started and didn’t know where there kid had been for a few days. (True Story!)
DunMoody
June 29th, 2010
3:31 pm
Aw, gee. Filter. Am I using a “no” word?
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:31 pm
Really Gwinnett Mom. What about backing that up with some facts about what percentage of girls are currently playing on high school baseball teams with boys? What percentage of girls are playing boys varsity basketball?
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:31 pm
Checkmate Gwinnett Mom.
DunMoody
June 29th, 2010
3:33 pm
@Nikole – actually, charters also include those who welcome whoever walks in the door. Peachtree Charter Middle School accepts every student who lives in the attendance district, regardless of ANYTHING. Yes, they are asked to give 10 volunteer hours to the school. No, their child is NOT “kicked out” if they fail to do so. By asking parents to step up, the school gets a much higher degree of parent involvement and, therefore, that essential component to quality education: the engaged parent. In return, parents get a school that welcomes them and wants their input.
Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:34 pm
Well like you said, if it’s not open to girls, they can’t exactly get on the team can they? Are you that resistant to change?
Larry
June 29th, 2010
3:34 pm
@EnoughAlready – thank you for setting the record straight on GSMST.
Perhaps some day I will possess your admirable civility when dealing with blowhards who post misinformation to deceive honest people. (Obviously, today isn’t that day.)
Most of GSMST’s student body is, as EnoughAlready noted, non-white.
The reason the state didn’t balk about the lack of bus service is because charter schools routinely don’t provide bus service. I didn’t bother going through 200+ web sites, but GSMST is the first charter school I’ve heard about that does provide transportation. It’s quite possible there are others, so feel free to post a list since it will be a short post.
About the best example for which this school can be used, is to demonstrate the caution necessary when comparing schools. GSMST is not a normal school and the students are anything but typical. Their self-described “rigorous curriculum” and focus on “extremely high levels of student achievement” are in no way understated. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of school aged kids simply couldn’t cut it at this school.
Over half of GSMST’s students qualify as gifted, if that’s a hint.
In a murky ocean of complaints about appealing to the lowest common denominator, GSMST is a lighthouse for intelligent, driven kids who too often exist unseen.
In case you haven’t figured this out, these kids are OUR future.
Chamblee Charter Parent
June 29th, 2010
3:36 pm
Single gender schools may be what some want but it’s not something I feel the entire public is obligated to fund. It only seems logical to me that if the rationale for creating charters is to give choice, then charters should be giving to choice to everyone, rather than half the population and not the other half.
Baker
June 29th, 2010
3:37 pm
“Those located in large urban areas and those serving disadvantaged students are the most successful.”
That’s all I need to hear. If a decent middle school is replaced by another decent middle school, who cares? Fixing the disaster that is inner city schools is the most important thing.
Stockbridge Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:38 pm
Great points by all. I don’t really see a problem in letting Ivy Prep accept boys. Oh and Gwinnett Mom, all I can say is YOU GO GIRL!!!
DunMoody
June 29th, 2010
3:40 pm
Okay, Chamblee Charter Parent – if a charter school is available only to high achiever students (such as Kittredge and Chamblee Magnet) doesn’t that rule out a significant portion of the population? Or if a magnet school only accepts students with musical/dramatic/dance talents such as DeKalb School of the Arts, doesn’t that mean untalented kids don’t get the same small-class, low teacher/student ratio? Just sayin . . .
Chamblee Charter Parent
June 29th, 2010
3:42 pm
Dunmoody, no matter what you do/effort you put forth, gender and race are not constructs that you can change (or change very easily to be technical). Talent/academic achievement are variables that people can work on (some might be better than others obviously) but these things are not as set in stone.
Time to dismiss Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:44 pm
Gwinnett mom now you’re just embarrassing yourself. A girls softball team would of course be open to girls. But once you open it to boys, and once you had to take the position that a girls softball team comprised of boys would be acceptable you pretty much relegated yourself to irrelevance.
You’ve been dismissed.
DunMoody
June 29th, 2010
3:44 pm
Sorry – that was a bit snippy. I have major problems with one-size-fits-all education, which is why I advocate for Charter Schools – whether your child is passionate about dance, math, politics, carpentry, computer programming . . . if a traditional school house can’t offer every program, why not make options available to every student? Maybe Charters aren’t the final answer (and I don’t believe they are), but it’ll take a century to turn this Titanic-albatross of public education around to fit the needs of the students wherever they are. I’ll work for the here and now – and Magnets and Charters are a good start. I’m frustrated that every student doesn’t have access to these programs . . .
DunMoody
June 29th, 2010
3:46 pm
I think I figured out the filter! If I use our moderator’s name (even positively), the filter clogs up. A ha!
The big picture
June 29th, 2010
3:47 pm
400,000 readers and no one sees the fundamental bias in this blog, even though it’s staring you in the face at the beginning of this blog topic?
Maybe people in Georgia deserve to have to pay for failing schools, and then pay again for social programs to prop up the by products of failing schools.
Gwinnett Mom
June 29th, 2010
3:51 pm
TTDGM, it’s clear we are not getting anywhere with your odd examples. To get back on topic, I think I’ve made my point perfectly clear. It would not be that difficult for Ivy Prep to offer choice to boys. That they do not is something I feel ought to be changed as apparently do many others on this blog.
Atlantan Forever
June 29th, 2010
3:55 pm
Gwinnett Mom, I had to jump in support of a fellow gal. I used to play baseball with the guys and never had any trouble. Never was allowed on the school team though but would have loved to have the opportunity. I think you’re right on with the fact that public schools really should have to accept everyone. How can you argue you’re giving people choice but at the same time telling my two young boys they have no right in your public school?
Let's be real here...
June 29th, 2010
3:58 pm
Uh Atlanta Forever… maybe because the aim isn’t to give everyone equal access??
EnoughAlready
June 29th, 2010
3:58 pm
Chamblee Charter Parent
June 29th, 2010
3:42 pm
If Ivy Prep should be open to boys, then Kittredge and Chamblee Magnet; should be open to people who don’t necessary fit their mold. They should be open to all regardless of talent or academics. It doesn’t matter if the qualifications can be obtained, just the fact that the tax payers are funding them. That was the initial argument.
Tonya
June 29th, 2010
4:01 pm
Maybe if GCPS didn’t routinely turn down charter applications regardless of validity there would BE a boys charter academy…..Just saying. I moved to Gwinnett from North Fulton and South Florida before that. before coming here, my son ONLY attended charter schools. The difference in welcoming parent involvement and how curriculum is used is miles apart. I’d kill for any type of option other than private school (which we just can’t swing right now) at this point.
Chamblee Charter Parent
June 29th, 2010
4:01 pm
EA, that actually would be fine with me. I like diversity. And my son isn’t in the magnet program btw.
EducationCEO
June 29th, 2010
4:09 pm
@Mo See we share the same ideas but I think too many people are misinformed when it comes to charters. Students living in the district can apply to a charter anywhere in the district. There are no attendance boundaries. That is not the same for traditional schools. In my opinion, the schools with the innovative programs in Gwinnett ARE NOT located in the South or Shiloh clusters. Our schools are seriously overcrowded and there are no plans for a new high school. The Gwinnett BOE DOES NOT care because this area is now a majority-minority community.
And we all know that Wilbanks IS NOT going to relinquish any control of students or money to anyone who does not subscribe to his leadership indoctrination, er… training program. After all, if he can’t blame students with disabilities/special needs, minority students, ELLs, or parents for low test scores, that means he would have to look at his leadership style and the kind of fear that is instilled in the teachers who work for him.
For those of you complaining about IVY only accepting girls, get off your duff and create an all-boys school next door so that families can have both sons and daughters served. Don’t blame IVY for the obvious lack of educational innovation and creativity under the Wilbanks regime. And no, I do not have a child at IVY so I am biased because I see and know what works. There is no reason for the BOE not to consider this model at other schools other than the fact that OLD people, especially here in the South, don’t like change. Period.
Larry
June 29th, 2010
4:29 pm
Catlady
Ivy Prep got $1,019,718 in QBE funding, which was calculated the same way all public schools are funded under Georgia law.
The Charter Schools Commission gave them an additional $1,273,966 under the currently contested law which allows this to be deducted from “home” school districts. The only exact numbers I have are for Gwinnett, where $849,994 was deducted from QBE earnings for kids who attend GCPS schools.
There is a formula in state law which determines how much local tax money goes to an independent charter school, which is functionally what a school system would spend on its own schools. The Georgia Charter Schools Commission is not required to, and did not use, this formula. According to this formula (what any other charter school would have received, or what GCPS would have spent had these kids enrolled in their home schools) the amount of local tax dollars to educate these 200 kids is about $550,000. So, the Charter Schools Commission cost Gwinnett taxpayers $300,000 which would have never been spent, regardless of where these kids chose to attend school.
As an aside, Ivy Prep’s contract stipulates that their students will outperform the average GCPS student on four CRCT areas. They failed to do this last year, and both sixth and seventh grades failed to do it this year. It’s not a big deal, but something I haven’t seen mentioned anywhere.
Hope this helps.
RobertNAtl
June 29th, 2010
4:34 pm
Geez, 400,000 readers, and not a single one can read The Big Picture’s mind.
*rolling eyes*
Missing the Point
June 29th, 2010
4:40 pm
I think some of you are missing the point. Why does it matter that your tax dollars are going towards a charter school in your district? I would be more concerned if the school (charter or not)was not performing to standards. We pay taxes for low performing schools all the time, but somehow not many complain about that. Good charter schools offer choices to residents. And in some cases, charter schools attract “active” parents and great students to the district (more tax money). My kids are enrolled in charter schools, simply because it works for them. As a taxpayer, I am thankful that I have that choice.
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
5:00 pm
Ok, back from an extended lunch. I’ve read what has been going on and I think that most of you are missing the point.
A male student cannot and will not be admitted to Ivy Prep because if you read the charter bylaws and mission of the school it is to uplift the “women” or girls.. This program is not new to education, only to those of you here in GA which is behind the times with education anyway. The reason you are all up in arms is because you do not understand and you do not want change. I totally understand that but guess what, this world is changing and our girls need to be ready for it. (Not to say that the boys dont) This program is doing very well up in New York!!
@Catlady, I have an accounting degree so I know what disposable income is all I was trying to say is that uniforms are no more expensive than clothes at Wal-Mart or Target. And the school does offer a program where girls who have outgrown their uniforms sell them to others who may not be able to afford full price. Yes at Goodwill prices because Goodwill clothes aren’t “free” either.
What you all do no understand is that the school does work with every family that wants to have their daughter in Ivy Prep. For example, I couldnt afford the blazer for the first 3 months my daughter attended, and they just told me to get it as soon as possible.
I totally agree with MISSING THE POINT as long as it is a good school, what is the problem. And to be fair, these girls are kicking butt on the standardized tests and learning how to be great young women in the process.
And another blogger pointed out a good point, maybe GCPS would have an all boys charter school if the stupid, old, non-caring board would approve them!!!
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
5:07 pm
Ok, back from lunch.
Typed in a lot of answers but apparently someone didnt like what I had to say because I hit submit and it didnt come through!!!
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
5:15 pm
Plus, how did this come to be everyone against Ivy Prep. We are not the only charter school in the area!!!
Jennifer
June 29th, 2010
5:15 pm
Dunwoody Mom -
I don’t know if anyone addressed your question about ELL and Special Education students at Ivy Prep, but in my quick look see this morning on the DOE website it is much higher than at the GMST district run charter. This is why I love schools that operate with integrity:
Ivy Prep: Special Education (6.7%) ELL (9.4%) (independently run and 2x denied by GCBOE)
GMST: Special Education (1.8) ELL (0%) (district run)
I don’t think I need to say much more.
IVYPREPMOM
June 29th, 2010
5:28 pm
@Jennifer, I called Ivy Prep on my lunch and they told me that they accept all girls no matter what and the person who answered the phone didnt know the percentage so thank you for finding out for me.
Looks good to me!!!
Maureen Downey
June 29th, 2010
5:40 pm
DunMoody, The filter seems to halt a lot of messages that include proper names. Not sure how it can tell, but somehow it does.
Maureen
DunMoody
June 29th, 2010
5:45 pm
Good to know, oh maven of the edu-blogosphere. Thank you for this invaluable forum.
Dunwoody Mom
June 29th, 2010
5:58 pm
Here is what Diane Ravitch says about how charter schools “game” the system with regards to admissions. This would also apply to a couple of magnet schools in DCSS:
“Many ways of gaming the system are not outright illegal, yet they are usually not openly acknowledged. Most principals know that the key to getting higher test scores is to restrict the admission of low-performing students…As choice becomes more common in urban districts, principals of small schools and charter schools-both of which have limited enrollments-may exclude the students who are most difficult to educate. They may do it be requiring an interview with parents of applicants, knowing that the parents of the lowest-performing students are not as likely to show up as the parents of more successful students. They may do it be requiring students write an essay explaning why they want to attend the school. They may ask for recommendation from the students’ teachers. They may exclude students with poor attendance records, since poor attendance correlates with poor academic performance. They may limit the number of students they admit who are English-language learners or in need of special education. Whenever there is competition for admission, canny principals have learned how to spot the kids who will diminish their scores and how to exclude them without appearing to do so. A lottery for admission tends to eliminate unmotivated students from the pool of applicants because they are less likely to apply. A school can carefully weed out the lowest-performing students and still be able to boast that most of all of its students are African-American, Hispanic and low-income. Education researchers call this skimming or cream-skimming. It is a very effective way for a school to generate high test scores regardless of the quality of its programs. Schools of choice may improve their test scores by counseling disruptive students to transfer to another school or flunking low-performing students, who may then decide to leave. Not only do the choice schools look better if they exclude laggards, but the traditional public schools look worse, because they must by law accept those who were not admitted to or were booted out of the choice schools.”
Dunwoody Mom
June 29th, 2010
6:03 pm
Maureen, as my post too long for the filter?
HStchr
June 29th, 2010
6:28 pm
GtMom- we started as an afterschool, Saturday, before school SAT help class. It just didn’t get response. Kids wanted it, and we found that many were more than willing to use it as part of their elective credit. So they missed a PE class or an art class to take it. One thing we did was to make sure they didn’t compromise their academic needs or chances to get extra academic credits. I absolutely agree that test taking skills are NOT a necessity in life. But, please understand that the SAT is a much more detailed, critical thinking test. In order to teach kids to score better, you have to teach critical thinking and college level reading skills. You have to remember that college admissions right now, especially in state schools where kids can use HOPE have gotten much more competitive. It’s harder to get in Georgia Tech, UGA, et.al than it used to be. In the short term, kids need that SAT score. And trust me, if you had to take a test to get certification in your job (perhaps you have), you know how important study and preparation are to making sure you get t he score you need.
As to the charter school question, I think districts need to create specializations in schools, whether we call them “charter” or “magnet” or whatever. So long as they are accountable and properly governed, then they can help. That’s the problem with charter schools- they work outside the purview of governing bodies that oversee the remaining public schools in a system. That is just plain wrong!
I’ve seen several mention growth models as better ways to plan for and monitor success in schools. Look at the candidates for superintendent and you’ll only find ONE that promotes this. Growth models set reasonable, reachable goals for INDIVIDUAL students that increase success, student attitudes, and longitudinally greater academic achievement. Several states use growth models, and so far they seem to be increasing success. It makes the unblievable money we spend on testing make sense. Read about it- I think you’ll see that it makes sense.
EducationCEO
June 29th, 2010
6:31 pm
@IVYPREPMOM @Jennifer and @MissingThePpoint We could go round and round on this issue and they still wouldn’t get it. What’s funny is that NO ONE says a peep about the privately-ran (for-profit) EMO/CMOS that go into communities, open schools, charge up to 21% in management fees, underpay teachers, keep parents off the governing boards, and make millions in profits. Of course not. They’d rather pick on little ol’ IVY because it is doing exactly what it said it would do, with less money, no brand new $14 million dollar building – despite being denied twice by GCPS board. Hilarious..you have to get a kick out of that.
When are we going to start attacking parents who homeschool or send their kids to private schools? After all, since those kids are not ‘in’ a GCPS that means the district does not get per pupil revenues for them. See how much sense this lame argument against charter schools makes?
As @Tonya said, they are behind. I am still scratching my head and trying to figure out how they keep qualifying for the Broad Prize when Berkmar repeatedly fails to make AYP and meet the needs of its ELL population, SWD have a dismal testing and graduation rate, and the obvious disdain expressed by then district’s leader. I guess that’s how they do things down here. We’re not giving up that 47th spot in Education-they are willing to fight to stay there!
john konop
June 29th, 2010
6:33 pm
Lyncoln,
In all due respect, this study would not pass mustard in a research methods class. Charter schools vary all over the board on curriculum, purpose, education theory…..
You may some common factors in success and failure but no rational person would study it as ONE group when they are not the same. Do you understand how this would be irrational?
Charter school is a category like food.
john konop
June 29th, 2010
6:36 pm
DC Dawg,
Calling me an idiot does not change the fact that you are clueless in understanding the basics of research methods.
Charter Supporter
June 29th, 2010
6:42 pm
IvyPrep Mom, I don’t think anyone is intentionally singling out your school but how many other charter schools explicitly prohibit students based on gender/race/income/etc? If it doesn’t matter as long as a school is good, would you be willing to accept charters that discriminate on the basis of the race/income as long as they produced high test scores? I am an avid supporter of charters, but I can see why many see a potential problem in publicly funding a school for only one gender.
B. Killebrew
June 29th, 2010
6:42 pm
Great posts, Dunwoody Mom!
Educator for Life
June 29th, 2010
6:55 pm
@catlady, why even discuss kids coming to school with dirty clothes? If these same kids were required to wear uniforms, their uniforms will be dirty too when they arrived at school!
lynn
June 29th, 2010
6:55 pm
In GA, nothing like what Dunwoody Mom describes should be happening. In the Charter application process, charters must submit their applications and they have to be very basic. In any charter schools are behaving as described in Dunwoody Mom’s post, then the school should be turned in to the state DOE. In my experience, they take the integrity of the admissions process seriously. (404) 656-0619 is the number for the charter schools office.
Single gender schools are a school reform model. What does make Ivy Prep unique is that there isn’t a corresponding boys school. Perhaps someone should open one. I think there is a huge need. In fact, I would argue that the need for males is greater than females!
lynn
June 29th, 2010
6:56 pm
When I said applications, I meant applications for admission.
Educator for Life
June 29th, 2010
6:58 pm
@GtMom, I agree and disagree. I think there should be a separate SAT Prep class, but there is still enough time to incorporate review into the junior and senior classes. I taught AP Calculus for 7 years and I always finished the curriculum with 3+ weeks to spare. I used that time to prepare for the AP Exam. The College Board’s standards are not shorter by any means, so I feel other classes should have extra time also.
education research
June 29th, 2010
7:01 pm
I came to this post late, and I didn’t really read all of the comments. However, a first few posts talked about the quality of research. john konop says that we can’t treat ‘charter schools’ as a whole, but it all depends on what you consider as the “treatment.” When policies are made for “charter” as the treatment, there is nothing wrong with considering it as the treatment. You can make the same argument about “public schools,” too. They aren’t all the same – they use different curricula, different sets of teachers/students, different economical backings, etc., etc. Yet, people compare “public schools” versus “private schools,” etc. We do this in international studies, too. In every system, there are some good schools and not so good schools. Within any school building, there are some good teachers, and many mediocre teachers. Policies are made with much larger size grains, and policy makers in general don’t want, or appreciate, nuanced research – which many people criticize, too.
Then, there are plenty of people who dismisses research which gives the results that contradicts THEIR common sense.
RonP
June 29th, 2010
7:09 pm
This is only the first of many studies currently in play. I suggest folks read the report before making any kind of sweeping conclusions. On the IES website (http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pubs/20104029/) it specifically notes that
“Because the study could only include charter middle schools that held lotteries, the results do not necessarily apply to the full set of charter middle schools in the U.S.”
Lee
June 29th, 2010
7:58 pm
“…researchers to compare two similar groups of students, one offered admission to the charter they applied to and one not offered admission.”
Uh, newsflash. It is not the students of motivated parents who take an active role in their child’s education that is the problem. When we parents homeschool, send our kids to private school, or try to get them into a charter school, what we are really trying to do is to segregate ourselves from the bottom 25%, the troublemakers, the illegal aliens who cannot speak a lick of English, the special ed student who really should not be mainstreamed, and the system that perpetuates mediocracy.
Educator for Life
June 29th, 2010
8:19 pm
@ education research, thank you for that post. It seems we always want to find fault in things in which we don’t agreee. We compare apples and oranges everyday. There are good and bad in all aspects of society. Dekalb has good and bad high schools, in terms of academic performance. Within a subdivision, there are good and bad homeowners. So, it is ok to compare charter schools to other charter, private, and public schools.
The big picture
June 29th, 2010
9:06 pm
Back and forth, to and fro, and again and again, we miss the big picture. One sentence shows the fundamental flaw of this blog, and the fundamental flaw of how we deal with our failing schools:
“I like charter schools; I just don’t think they are the answer to under-performing schools. Nor are they a surrogate for the challenging work of improving teacher quality.”
Ah yes, if we could but ONLY fix the teacher…
Not that teacher quality isn’t important, because of course it is. But to say it, as has been said over and over again on this blog is no more that MAGICAL THINKING, that if we just “fix the teacher” we don’t have to have an HONEST discussion on how we don’t SUPPORT the teacher, especially when it comes to giving the teacher the authority to hold students accountable for behavior.
Still “rolling your eyes” RobertNAtl?
Well anybody else rolling their eyes is more than welcome to provide a rebuttal. But before you do consider: is there a school system in Georgia known for, in fact that has received NATIONAL accolades for “improving teacher quality” and embracing “researched based best practices” yet at the same time is also known for NOT being honest about supporting teachers in discipline and in fact it’s been DOCUMENTED that they have failed to do so?
I wonder, I wonder, do we dare say there is even a system in Georgia that is the “gold standard” for that kind of thinking?
Please reference it, and reference how very, very well it is doing these days when you explain how we can have an HONEST discussion of improving teaching WITHOUT having an honest discussion on how we do and don’t support teachers.
??????
June 29th, 2010
9:14 pm
Anything is better then basic Georgia standards!!!! Even if a Charter has to follow most of them they can implement other curriculum as well. Have fewer students per teachers etc. The counties don’t want these charters because it purely takes away FULL funding. 33% goes to public the rest to the charter. This is truly the issue as it has been with Cherokee Charter Academy and same on you all for trying to state otherwise. A few of us truly knows what is going on with this and you all are scared because you know that the majority you can snow over but a few of us knows what has taken place and maybe you all will be revealed!!! Cherokee County outta be ashamed of it self!!!! Only thing left know is for us to pull for vouchers and you are even more afraid of them!
john konop
June 29th, 2010
9:27 pm
education research,
You are correct I would not analyze all public schools the same. This is the biggest spin Kathy Cox did promoting her failed math 123.
In Cherokee, Cobb and North Fulton had a great gifted math program that was nationally ranked before her failed math 123 idea. Kathy Cox used statewide numbers in front of parents in the above district and said we were behind in gifted math. A rational intelligent person without an agenda would of taken what was working in the above districts and helped the other districts and not use false data for political pay-offs.
I am not advocating for or against charter schools. I am only advocating honest objective non agenda driven analysis. And if we did that instead of pay for play policy from lobbyist we would not be in this mess.
As I predicted Kathy Cox would become a high paid lobbyist post pushing her failed lobbyist driven agenda on tax payers’ dime. The sad part is the victims are kids.
Duh
June 29th, 2010
9:44 pm
Big picture- perhaps if you spent all this time learning how to effectively manage a class, instead of posting 100 times a day on this blog, you wouldn’t need so much support in your class. Good teachers don’t share your concerns.
In fact, your constant harping makes reasonable people much less likely to want to discuss this issue, regardless of whether it deserves airing or not. Your obsession is actually doing your cause a HUGE disservice, as it is very alienating to regular readers of the blog.
Chill.
HStchr
June 29th, 2010
9:59 pm
Duh- go get the MACE guy (Big Picture). I’ve taught over twenty years, most of those spent with “at-risk” kids who typically have worked their way through the discipline chain at least once, some several times. I love them, expect the best from them, and support them while I help them learn at their level and raise that level. My administrators know that I willingly, lovingly take the worst and move them forward, academically AND behaviorally. I know MANY, many teachers who do the same and discipline problems are few. I teach in a high poverty school, so I know about tough kids from bad homes who have all kinds of learning and behavioral issues. I don’t judge them by a middle-class white behavioral model, and I find that they behave for me and even come to me to avoid getting in trouble. If a teacher does that, administrative support isn’t a question, and discipline isn’t a problem.
What big picture wants is the keep dissatisfied teachers feeling like victims and keep the tension between teachers and administrators high so that they run to his organization and keep his paycheck coming. Don’t listen to him or try to debate him. It’s pointless, and has been for the past twenty years.
Jennifer
June 29th, 2010
10:19 pm
Education CEO – you are right on about Berkmar. This is information I discovered in doing research on the IE2 contract in Gwinnett. The BOE brags about Berkmar and its’ ELL population…and yet, in the years I reviewed them, the ELL subgroup somehow, magically did not even qualify for evaluation under AYP.
The smoke is very thick in Gwinnett. They are a decent district, but the spin is almost laughable.
The big picture
June 29th, 2010
11:06 pm
Big picture- perhaps if you spent all this time learning how to effectively manage a class, instead of posting 100 times a day on this blog, you wouldn’t need so much support in your class.
Yes Duh, dozens of children are running around unsupervised because I am posting on a blog in the last week of June. Of course.
“Good teachers don’t share your concerns.”
Really? You don’t think Janice Fair is a good teacher? Somebody thought she was good enough to train other teachers, and despite that, she ended up in the newspaper, a victim of a violent assault.
“Good teachers don’t share your concerns.”
Good teachers aren’t concerned when a system falsified discipline data and under reports over 40,000 incidents? Good teachers aren’t concerned when state Tribunal law is violated, and hearing aren’t held as required by law? Doesn’t sound like the “good teachers” you know are interested in integrity in gathering and reporting data.
“Good teachers don’t share your concerns.”
# Nearly half of teachers surveyed (49%) reported they have been accused of unfairly disciplining a student.
# More than half of teachers (55%) said that districts backing down from assertive parents causes discipline problems in the nation’s schools.
Still want to say that “good teachers don’t share these concerns”? Or would you rather say that every teacher surveyed who agreed with the above statements were bad teachers?
“…as it is very alienating to regular readers of the blog.”
Ever consider that with what is going on in education today, and the generally tepid response to it, that maybe some people need to be shaken up. But yes Duh, I admit I’m much more interested in what’s best for Georgia students than what’s comfortable for regular readers of this blog.
The big picture
June 29th, 2010
11:13 pm
“I know MANY, many teachers who do the same and discipline problems are few.”
Yes HStchr, one million discipline referral were written in Georgia in a single year because discipline problems are few. Oh, let me guess, all one million were written by bad teachers right?
“I don’t judge them by a middle-class white behavioral model”
Wow, we talk about how much we “love” these kids, but in the next sentence we don’t have enough faith in them that they can behave as well as white kids?
Talk about paternalism.
hard working educator
June 30th, 2010
12:58 am
Maureen,
Like Education CEO, I find it totally perplexing how in our state of Georgia highly qualified educators are not given the opportunity to start a charter school without a sizable (millions) bank account or sponsorship by a management company. I see this as a deliberate plan to prevent minorities from utilizing their talents and expertise in administering quality educational programs. I am quoting something you wrote regarding KIPP – “Systems should listen to good ideas from their teachers and let them try them. That is how KIPP started in Houston when Rod Paige let two young Teach for America teachers try out their ideas in one wing of a school.” These white teachers were permitted to utilize their teaching abilities. Support was given to them and through time they became a leader in the charter movement. On the other hand, highly educated persons have struggled for years to get charter schools started here in Georgia and have been disrespected and given minimal support by the local boards, commission and the state. This is a case in point on how “white teachers” can be heralded as experts to educate our minority children yet minorities with more years of education experience, higher degrees in education and related fields, administrative experience and broad community support are viewed as basically “inept”. As the Georgia Charter School Commission stated with several of the applicants last year, “the governing body did not have the expertise to effectively operate a charter school.” What makes KIPP have the means to start a charter school? – Answer: They are not a minority. Several of the petitioners with the Georgia Charter School Commission far surpassed the two educators who started KIPP with – 1) higher degress 2) significant numbers of successful teaching experience with proven results 3) administrative experience 3) experience in educational leadership 4) cultural linkages within the minority community. So, what can be said about the state of affairs with the charter movement in Georgia? Humph….
chartersupporter
June 30th, 2010
7:29 am
EducationCEO and hard working educator
Did you get business people and non-profit type folks on your boards? Did you get assistance with the business plan portion of your charter? Write your charter in such a way, that they can’t question your credentials and your financial plan and then resubmit it.
It does take money in the bank to open a school. Your grassroots effort will need money or a line of credit to secure a facility, begin paying an administrator and perhaps a few other folks. Then your first state monies don’t arrive until well into the school year.
There is the implementation grant, but that generally arrives after school starts as well.
KIPP was started on a wing and a prayer all those years ago, but those two young men had a school system’s blessing and the use of a facility. It is much harder when you have neither.
chartersupporter
June 30th, 2010
7:44 am
For anyone interested in why the commission denied certain schools, you can see a copy of the memos here:
http://www.gadoe.org/pea_charter.aspx?PageReq=PEACSCharterRecommendations
Some of the mistakes were rookie ones and showed, in my opinion, the lack of information seeking before petitions were written. For example, there were consistent issues about goals and objectives in many of the rejected petitions. However, on the GA DOE charter schools website are links to how to write goals. As someone who has been involved in the charter movement for a long time, Goals and Objectives are one of the most important parts of a charter as it is what forms the accountability section.
I believe that some of the concerns raised about the commission are valid, maybe most of them are. But there are some real challenges in the types of people trying to open charter schools everywhere. Here is one blurb from the memo explaining why the charter was denied.
Also troubling, the petitioning group failed to demonstrate a specific need or sufficient community support as the basis for the charter school. Instead, the plan for the charter school appeared to be based on the availability of a facility owned by the lead founder for the charter school, rather than on a specific community need or desire for the charter school. This facility arrangement presents a potential unresolved conflict of interest in that the lead founder of the charter school may benefit financially from contracting with the charter school, in violation of the Charter Schools Act, for the payment of rent, maintenance, repair, utilities, insurance, and other expenses related to the facility owned by him. On a related issue, the facility currently serves as office space to several small businesses and the facility would continue to do so even with the charter school located in the facility, raising additional questions of suitability of the facility to house a high school.
john konop
June 30th, 2010
7:54 am
education research ,
One more thing my global point is we should be taking the best ideas from public, charter, home and private schools should be the agenda. A sign of a dysfunctional business is when departments fight over agenda and power over what is best for the business. It seems this is the biggest problem in education. The debate is always framed either or with bad agenda driven studies making a political point, over looking at the best solution and understanding all sides have a roll in education.
ConcernedFultonMom
June 30th, 2010
8:38 am
@Fedup “for anyone who thinks things are equal in this district…visit Milton HS and then drive south and visit the newest South Fulton HS – Langston Hughes……see if anything strikes you as odd.”
Agreed! And this along with the issue of charter schools, etc. is the reason why this state continues to be laughable with all of its “standards” in education…
It's not limited!
June 30th, 2010
9:12 am
“And we all know that Wilbanks IS NOT going to relinquish any control of students or money to anyone who does not subscribe to his leadership indoctrination, er… training program. After all, if he can’t blame students with disabilities/special needs, minority students, ELLs, or parents for low test scores, that means he would have to look at his leadership style and the kind of fear that is instilled in the teachers who work for him.”
“Education CEO – you are right on about Berkmar. This is information I discovered in doing research on the IE2 contract in Gwinnett. The BOE brags about Berkmar and its’ ELL population…and yet, in the years I reviewed them, the ELL subgroup somehow, magically did not even qualify for evaluation under AYP. The smoke is very thick in Gwinnett. They are a decent district, but the spin is almost laughable.”
The big picture
June 30th, 2010
9:32 am
As long as this blog and this state are allowed, without being challenged, to put forth the MAGICAL THINKING, that you can fix the problems in our failing schools by addressing “teacher quality” WITHOUT addressing teacher SUPPORT for discipline, we are going to continue to have a conversation about how to “fix” education because Georgia is going to continue to have some of the lowest performing schools, along with some of the highest rates of incarceration in the nation.
But if 400,000 readers can’t get that, and don’t understand the role of the free press in highlighting issues to bring about change…
Milton Conservative
June 30th, 2010
10:06 am
ConcernedFultonMom & Fed Up, based on your comments, I assume you must be 100% behind the proposed creation of Milton county since it seems you think South Fulton is getting the short end of the current arrangement?
Druid Hills Mom
June 30th, 2010
10:46 am
It really disturbs me how readily some of you on here are willing to permit legalized segregation, whether by race, gender, income, intelligence, etc. In my opinion, either we put our foot down and get involved and support our public schools and actively work towards reform, or we create a system of charters that are truly accessible to all. Not this thinly veiled attempt I see everywhere to keep out certain segments of the population, nor the quite blatant attempts to exclude certain students from even applying. A charter school, after all, is a public school and everyone deserves the right to attend it should it be approved.
IVYPREPMOM
June 30th, 2010
10:57 am
I am rereading all of these posts and I now understand why we, as a state, cant get anywhere in education. All we want to do is talk and argue about our situation. The people who are walking the walk are being either thrown under the bus for their efforts or scrutinized like crazy.
Someone wrote about money, it always come back to money. Money is needed to start a school. Period. For those of us who arent willing to deal with Wilbanks and his body of blind lambs, what are we supposed to do? You dont want the charter schools so you tell me, what is my daughter supposed to do? I really wish that one of you would truly answer that question.
You talk about supporting the teachers, what about the children that are being mistreated by some of these teachers and they get away with it? No all of them no, but just like not all teachers are bad, not all black parents are bad either. And I know plenty of us who are treated that way. Should I stay in a system like that and let my child stay in that uncomfortable learning environment? Doesnt she have the right to feel comfortable and safe where she goes to school? Why should I have to fight a school board or a SST for any reason. I have a child that had NEVER been written up in her Christian elementary school and then she almost gets suspended for something stupid in public middle school. They are trying to say she has an attitude and doesnt llsten. That isnt even my childs temperment. I even had her other school call and talk to GCPS and they didnt care. It is their way or no way and I’m not that kind of parent. I birthed that child so what I say goes. Period I dont care where she is. That is another of GCPS problems. They complain that parents dont get involved and then when we do, they ignore us or even tell our children in front of us not to listen to us, their own parents. (Let me tell you now, that will never work with a true parent that is in control of their children.)
There are soooooo many other points that need to be addressed but I really think that if us parents stood up to Wilbanks and he crew then things would be better. But I’ve seen parents back down when they know they are right. Why do yall do that down here? Why not be the biggest supporter that your kids have. And the parents that are backing down are the ones on this blog. Because the others arent around and dont care.
IVYPREPMOM
June 30th, 2010
11:35 am
Is my last post too long? Why hasnt it been posted?
Batgirl
June 30th, 2010
12:44 pm
@john konop, that should be “pass muster”, not “mustard”.
@Gwinnett Mom, I’m with you. Keep it up.
Some of you seem to think that only your tax dollars fund your child’s education. Your money only funds a small portion of one child’s education as does everyone else’s. We are all in this together. What really bothers me is that some posters here are all about “me and mine” and don’t give a fig about “you and yours” or “them and theirs”.
Get Real
June 30th, 2010
2:06 pm
I can’t say I blame the teachers at GCPC for any performance issues. Based on these comments, there is apparently zero community support in some areas of Gwinnett for the schools and apparently the second the schools try to discipline a student, they start attacking the school and running to charter schools. If you want affluent people to stop fleeing to Forsyth, letting teachers enforce discipline might be a good start!
EducationCEO
June 30th, 2010
2:17 pm
CharterSupporter – You either work for DOE or GCSA. Those groups were not given the opportunity to seek funding BECAUSE you must have an approved charter before you can submit applications to the FEDERALLY-FUNDED organizations that provide capital to START-UP charter schools. They are very competent, have diverse boards, and can read the Georgia Charter School Law. The provision about having funds in the bank to be considered must have been written in invisible ink because it’s not there. The leadership of the Charter Schools Division and GCSA is reflective of the leadership of local boards of education. Not sure what that mean? Just Google the staff of both organizations. One petitioner has documentation, signed by DOE staff, stating that the group needed to raise their entire operating budget before they would receive consideration. Funny, KIPP and Imagine schools can still ‘count’ on federal Implementation Grant funds but don’t receive correspondence stating they need to show proof of entire operating budgets. Also funny that those companies only open schools in districts where at least 70% of students qualify for Free and Reduced Lunch. No newspapers in Georgia ever report on that.
CharterSupporter since you went through the trouble of posting one of the commission’s concerns, you should have posted info about the groups that were told to partner with a for-profit entity. After all, everyone in education should be about making money, right?
BTW: anyone who wants to know who I am can Google me. I am not hiding behind some fake title because I work for one of these organizations. I also have proof (both written and recorded) that a group was told they had to have $1 million to have their petition considered. No need to hide from the facts, especially when they are on your side. The demise of the charter school movement is on the horizon in Georgia, hopefully a class action lawsuit will shed some light (the truth) on what’s really going on here. Expect the GCSA to be right behind. I cannot support ideologies that put forth the notion that everyone can educate low-income and minority kids, start charter schools, and staff the GCSA BUT minorities, BTW: Secretaries and administrative assistants don’t count.
@ivyprepmom
June 30th, 2010
2:19 pm
“I have a child that had NEVER been written up in her Christian elementary school and then she almost gets suspended for something stupid in public middle school. They are trying to say she has an attitude and doesnt llsten.”
Before automatically blaming the teacher for this, you might want to consider that she was never written up at her Christian school because those teachers are allowed to set the tone, and are supported by administrators who set the tone. There’s a good chance at the middle school, it was the students who set the tone and the administrators who allowed it by undercutting the authority of the classroom teacher over and over again.
This is not an uncommon thing, where children come from private schools with structure and discipline and end up in public schools where there is anything but. It could very well be your child’s behavior dramatically dropped, and that’s why it caught the teacher’s attention, as opposed to the students who had been non stop behavior problems all year long. The very weak administrator could have thought he could do something about your child’s behavior, as that very weak administrator has totally lost control of the more disruptive class members.
One of the things our society does not consider in our rush to blame the teacher, is to look at the dynamics the teacher operates under. Think about the words above, and see if that wasn’t a distinct possibility as to what happened. Your child was subjected to chaos, tried to push the limits, and was given extra scrutiny by administration, because it was such a dramatic drop in behavior from the first day your child was in school.
All this underscores one thing. You are right. You are one hundred percent in the right. Why should your child be subjected to that atmosphere because a spineless school system won’t discipline chronically disruptive children? Why is it that people would object so fiercely to their tax dollars going to a school that works, yet they have no objection to their tax dollars going to the dysfunctional nightmare your child apparently came from before?
And to use the word segregation is a complete insult to those who fought against real segregation. Ivymom, you want to segregate your child from an environment of chaotic dysfunctional behaviors and adults who don’t have the spine to deal with it, and put your child in an environment where students can learn. And someone wants to complain about your school, and not those dysfunctional schools that caused parents to seek alternatives?
Don’t give them a second thought. But do give a second thought to the dynamic I wrote about that may have led to your child getting in trouble at the public school, so you don’t, as so many have done, fall prey to the let’s blame the teacher for everything wrong in the public schools syndrome. That’s just what the leaders of theses dysfunctional systems want you to think, to shift the blame from themselves.
EducationCEO
June 30th, 2010
3:27 pm
For those of you posing silly questions about boys being allowed to attend Ivy Prep, here is the link from OCR citing guidelines for Single Gender Schools/Classes: http://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/ocr/edlite-t9-guidelines-ss.html
Bush authorized public single gender schools as a means to addressing the academic disparities/gaps between males and females. As I stated yesterday, if Gwinnett was not so archaic in its education policy/innovation, they could easily create a Single Gender school for boys. After all, they deny 99% of charter applications. Duh! Start using the Internet to research instead of bashing successful schools and other people.
HStchr
June 30th, 2010
4:48 pm
“Wow, we talk about how much we “love” these kids, but in the next sentence we don’t have enough faith in them that they can behave as well as white kids?
Talk about paternalism.”
You are, as usual, a blithering idiot, John Trotter. The sad thing is that there are some who fall into your web. You just can’t get over the fact that Clatyon had sense enough not to give you an administrator’s job. You are bent on destroying each and every classroom, school, and system you can. You succeeded in Clayton- leave the rest of us alone.
The problem is, folks, good teachers (and most really are), can deal with what comes their way figure out how to combine high expectation with patience, dedication, and ultimately successful classrooms. Some administrators also are good, and a few aren’t. I have great administrators, and I know how lucky I am. But, if I am wrong in a discipline situation, they will let me know that and help me figure out how to handle the situation better the next time. They support me so long as I am in the right. Unlike Big Picture…aka John Trotter…I don’t think my room should be a 1950’s era classroom where the teacher is the militant authority and doesn’t have to be interesting, challenging, or encouraging to reach kids and actually teach them something. What a loser he is.
Time to get out the paddle
June 30th, 2010
4:51 pm
Having seen some of Gwinnett’s schools, I have to say that parents not too unlike IvyPrep Mom are part of the problem. You cannot touch or even speak in a stern tone to some of these children without the parents getting up in your face and threatening lawsuits. And we wonder why these schools can’t enforce discipline. Trust me, it’s a good thing we have charters – if only to get these snobby ‘my child is perfect’ parents out of the system. Let the other kids learn in peace.
IVYPREPMOM
July 1st, 2010
11:42 am
@Time toget out the paddle – 1st of all you dont know me and I know for a fact that my child is not perfect!! I know that she acts completely different around me and her father than she does in school. My point was that she is not a disciplinary problem. You cant go from K4-5th grade never getting written up and then go to 6th grade and then you’re a serious problem. Yes, she did test her limits and I had no problem with the teachers who truly tried to stop her from becoming like some of the bad butt kids in the class. I’m talking about the teacher who told my child that “She didnt care” A teacher should NEVER use those words together in a sentence with a child. If you think that at her Christian school that my daughter wasnt spoken to in a stern tone then you are an idiot. Of course she was, but they were able to handle the situation without writing her up or sending her to the office. They took control of the situation at the beginning. Thats all I’m saying. She’s a kid of course she is going to test her limits. My problem is that GCPS doesnt seem to understand that children are going to test their limits. That is their job as children. There is no 1 fix for every student and that’s exactly what GCPS wants. I take exception to your comment about “Snobby parents” because all I am is a parent that wants the best for my child.. If that makes me snobby, then so be it. But I’ll be snobby while my child is in the Ivy Leagues in college and these other bad butt kids are in jail or at McDonalds fllipping burgers!!!
@ @IvyPrepMom – my husband and I did consider the fact that our child was just trying to fit in and behave like the other children, but we also very quickly let her know that it was out of the question for her to act like that. She did threaten to throw a chair at a little boy in class and she got in trouble for it. Fine, we took the detention for that, but my question was why didnt the teacher stop the boy from bullying her. And I dont mean just talking about her, I mean caller her names but spreading rumors and pushing her books on the floor in the one particular teachers class. The teacher was friends with his mother and he got away with everything in that class. So, we accepted the detention but I also told the school that the little boy only had one more chance to pick with my kid and I was coming up there to see him, not them!! Of course this was drastic, but I got my point across. Trust me, Lanier doesnt want me back anymore than we want to go back. My kid isnt perfect but she isnt a troublemaker either.
Its amazing how everyone wants to put everything back on the parents and the kids when all the teachers have to do is deal with the troublemakers. Dont let it get to the point where the other kid has to act out for you to handle the situation!!! Maybe the teachers are bound by some rules that us parents dont know about, but then they need to stand up to the adminstration and say they need help. I dont know about that side of the table all I know is that teachers have my support at all times, WHEN THEY ARE RIGHT!! BUT BEING A TEACHER DOESNT MAKE YOU RIGHT AUTOMATICALLY!!!
@IvyPrepmom
July 1st, 2010
12:04 pm
“Fine, we took the detention for that, but my question was why didnt the teacher stop the boy from bullying her.”
Because the administration will NOT support the teacher. You think the teacher WANTS the bullying boy to get away with it?
“Its amazing how everyone wants to put everything back on the parents and the kids when all the teachers have to do is deal with the troublemakers.”
The teachers are not ALLOWED to deal with the troublemakers. That’s why a child can call a teacher an “an ugly b-tch” right in front of an administrator and nothing happens. Yes these things happen ALL TOO OFTEN despite the fact that people who read and write this blog are in COMPLETE denial about it.
Ask Janice Fair how many times she tried to point out a discipline problem to administrator, before the discipline problem BRUTALLY assaulted her. Then they FINALLY did something about it.
IVYPREPMOM
July 1st, 2010
12:15 pm
@ @Ivy I dont know about these situations but that is no reason for my child to have to endure this crap.
Not to mention that this teacher and this kids parents were friends. In this particular case, the teacher didnt need the administrations support, she need the other kids parents to step up. Kids are also out of control because their parents arent stepping up. It seems that the schools want to discipline the kids of the parents that are stepping up and do nothing with the troublemakers and you all want us to sit back and take it. And I just wont. It is my job to protect my kids even from the adults at school. If my kids are wrong, they deal with me, if the teachers are wrong, they deal with me as well. No one likes dealing with me.
I’m sorry that kids are behaving this way and I am truly sorry that teachers dont have the support of their administration, but that isnt my kids fault. I’m not in denial, I may be a little ignorant to the facts but I am willing to learn if the truth and information is put in front of me. The truth so far for me is that GCPS actually failed MY daugter. I’m not saying that it isnt a good system for someone elses kids. Just not mine. Why is that so wrong?!!
@IvyPrepmom
July 1st, 2010
12:40 pm
’m not in denial, I may be a little ignorant to the facts but I am willing to learn if the truth and information is put in front of me.
Those are the facts. The teacher can’t make the other parent “step up” when the other parent can get administration to CAVE IN. It happens ALL the time, despite what the blog moderator and other apologists think. The sad thing is they will discipline YOUR child, because YOU won’t go to the school at ACT A FOOL!
“but that isnt my kids fault”
Exactly. It is NOT your child’s fault that GCPS will NOT discipline chronically disruptive kids, but will instead, in their SPINELESSNESS, chose to “make an example” out of your child to PRETEND they are dealing with discipline.
You did the RIGHT thing. Don’t let anybody on this blog make you think for even ONE moment that you didn’t. Let THEM argue for keeping the failed status quo; get your child the quality education she deserves.
IVYPREPMOM
July 1st, 2010
1:07 pm
@ @Ivy, that makes soooo much sense to me now!! Wow, I feel really, really, slow now. Of course, because I cared and wanted to get to the bottom of the problem, that made ME the problem and not the other parties involved. Dang do I feel stupid now. Thank you for putting it so open and bluntly. All this education in my head and I couldnt see the forest for the trees.
Well, I’m happy with my decision to put and keep my daughter where she is!!!
@IveyPrepMom
July 1st, 2010
1:35 pm
You sure did the right thing. I’m sure your daughter’s progress shows you that. But you know what shows EVERYBODY that. How hard Alvin and GCPS are fighting against a school that WORKS.
It’s not about what’s right for your daughter, it’s about keeping THEIR power.
Now what do you want to bet the odds are that your child is continuing to be NOT written up while the child they DIDN’T discipline is continuing to be a HUGE discipline problem?
The saddest thing is your momma might make the school cave in, but your momma is NOT going to make a JUDGE cave in. But since we don’t want to have an HONEST conversation about that, then it’s up to individuals like IvyPrepMom to do what they need to do.
IVYPREPMOM
July 1st, 2010
2:28 pm
@ @Ivy prep. Nope my daughter hasnt gotten into trouble once since she has been enrolled in Ivy Prep. Dont get me wrong, she still tries to push her luck, but we all (me and the teachers) put a stop to it quick. See the teachers dont need the administration because they handle the problems in the class and keep it moving!!
My daugher also not only passed the CRCT, she exceeded in 2 areas. She’s a little weak in science but that’s okay. They have extra tutoring M-TH to help with that and we just need to help her. The philosphy of the school is that together as parents and educators we can help her get past this science hump!!
Thanks for understand my issues with GCPS. I was beginning to think that I was sooooo alone in this process!!
New Blood Needed
July 1st, 2010
3:16 pm
http://www.willisforstatesuper.com