“For the first time in 10 years, I cannot call myself a teacher.”

@ drew,

damn right I don’t my taxes raised.
besides not being able to afford it, all raising
taxes will do is give them more money to waste.

when that days comes, when they can show me they
are good stewards of the monies give,

then -maybe- talk to me about tax increases.

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the only thing would could make this situtation worse
would be unions.

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I don’t know why Cobb County had to do what was done. I am a former teacher and am married to a teacher. Without teachers, schools would not exist. What I was commenting on was status quo does not have to continue. School boards, teachers, parents, and other members of the local community must work together (not in opposition to one another).

As to my responsibility to manage public schools in my district; simply put, boards of education are to set policy for the system. We are to be the best stewards we can be with taxpayer’s monies and provide (with the resources available to us) teachers and other staff resources and facilities with which to educate our children.

I cannot speak to the thinking of other school board members (except to say that the 7 members of our board have the same goals), nor can I say we have all the answers. We work hand-in-hand with our teachers. We inquire of them what we (as a board) need to do to help them perform. The goal of our board, our teachers, our community is to provide the highest quality education possible with the resources we have.

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I realized this morning that if the federal government gave every state one billion dollars for the sole purpose of education, they would be giving only around 5% of what they gave Wall Street. Does that help to put things in perspective?

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em, until 1988 (maybe later) our elementary principal taught a math class EVERY DAY. He said it kept him in touch with the real world. It is among the things I highly recommend for administrators. Also: no administrator should be “over” something he/she does not have /SIGNIFICANT experience with (for example, a sped teacher should not be principal), no one should be even considered for enrollment in a leadership degree program (much less be hired as an AP) without 15 years of CLASSROOM experience, and no administrator should be out of the classroom for more than 5 years before being rotated back into a regular classroom for at least 2 years before returning to administration. This would solve a lot of our problems.

In addition, no curricular or program decisions should be made by non-teachers (current licenses) in the legislature, state BOE, or DOE. We don’t allow others to make the rules for the AMA, do we? (other than basic legalities)

When I first came to this small, rural county, there were 5 people in the CO (with 3000 students). Now, we have 7 in just the bookkeeping department! Our student population is up to about 4200, but we have over 50 CO personnel!

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catlady,

Wouldn’t we need more “administrators” if they have to rotate back in classrooms for a couple of years every 5 years? Is there any database showing the number of years of classroom teaching experiences of current administrators?

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@EduPoli: Thanks for pointing out the very real fact some of this “crisis” is a direct result of insufficient long-term budgement management on the part of Public Schools across GA. I guess the message to the voters is pay closer attention to who you elect as stewards over public funds.

@ Cobb Mom: The answer to your question is simple, research SB346 which just passed the GA Legislature in this passed session and has been signed by the Governor. It required (rightly so in my opinion) Tax Assessors across the state to stop “lying” on property tax statements falsely propping up the tax digest and reflect the true value of real estate across the GA in the wake of the real estate bust. Translation, lower tax revenues and wider budget deficits for school boards and county commissions.

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Not bad: no, because as some come “off rotation, others would be going on rotation.

I am just so tired of administrators who have little experience teaching and NO credibility deciding what I need to do. Or, add in there that they are administrating “out of field”.

In my county, three of our 7 principals have less than 10 years of hands-on teaching experience. The other 4 I don’t know about.

I liked it better “in the old days” when I worked under principals who were very experienced. Things went better, they stood up for teachers more, and they protected us from this silly (stuff) that seems to be dumped on us nowadays by people who think they have “found the cure.”

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Our system is cutting teachers (mostly by attrition), instructional days have been cut, and our classroom supply money is 1/3 the amount we got 5 years ago, but so far as anyone can tell, they have not cut jobs at the county office, and the landscaping and grounds crew is still replacing all the annuals in all the flower beds at every school in the county on a regular basis….

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But if you have 100 administrators right now, some would have to go back in classrooms, and we need someone else to be in their positions. Once you have those numbers set, then, yes I see that simply rotating them won’t change their numbers. Of course, we will have fewer teacher positions, too.

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In DeKalb County we have 8,500 admin and support to 6,800 (soon to be 6,700 or less) teachers. We have lots of personnel. Unfortunately, most of them don’t teach.

Out of those 8,500 non-teaching personnel, DeKalb has:
1,239 Central Office employees, 143 principals, and 264 Assistant Principals

I think we have more than enough “supervisors”.

DeKalb parents/taxpayers do not want less teachers – we want more teachers and less admin and support.

You can see why we are reluctant to raise property taxes with numbers like these (Cobb County taxpayers should run their numbers – they are only slightly less top-heavy – you’re creeping up there – trying hard to overtake us in the area of non-teaching personnel.).

It seems easier and more expedient for DeKalb voters to just elect a new BOE. We have 9 members and 5 are coming up for election this year. I believe this Lewis scandal (remember how every BOE member had nothing but praise for Lewis just a few months ago and the month before gave him a $15,000 raise) just might ensure that they are all replaced. Then that BOE must get a superintendent who will rebalance the numbers in favor of the classroom.

I’ve mainly concentrated on analyzing and posting DCSS personnel analyses, but I’ve looked at the state Salary and Travel audits for every metro system so see how they compare with DCSS. With the exception of Decatur City Schools and Forsyth County, they are all extremely top heavy with admin and support personnel.

These metro administrators eventually retire and populate the halls of the Georgia DOE. Where do you think most of the administrators Kathy Cox got came from? The educational system worked out pretty well for them (very generous pensions from their hefty salaries + nice salaries from the state of Georgia). They see absolutely nothing wrong with the way it is structured. They truly believe that administrators are more important than teachers and students. I know and worked with quite a few of the DOE administrators that came from DeKalb. They’re nice people, but most never left their offices except to go to other offices to meet with other administrators. LOL – A friend of mine said she was down at the DOE offices a couple of years ago, and it looked like a retired DCSS administrators home. You know it has to be bad when so many of Kathy Cox’s administrators came from DeKalb County Schools.

Governor Perdue, please don’t tell me we need to be cutting teachers in DCSS when we have a ratio of 1.25 admin and support personnel for every 1 teacher.

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Until teachers unionize, or establish some kind of professional organization with some bite to it, nothing will change substantively in Georgia. Unfortunately, the only thing management understands is “we won’t work until you meet our demands”, period. There is no incentive to improve the quality of education as long as teachers show up, sigh, complain, go home with stress-related illnesses, and talk, talk, talk in the hallways about how difficult teaching has become. Stop complaining, and use what you know about good education to put your feet down. If we don’t put our feet down now, we are likely to find that we are putting them down where we don’t want to–walking out the door when they RIF the next bunch next year.

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After 30 plus years in GA, teaching 4-12, but mostly 6th grade..where I was best, it makes me so sad to read all of this sometimes. Yes, in Ga test scores are slow…in TN 3-4 days….Why delay?
I am sad all the younger teachers think experienced teachers should be the ones to go…I guess in 1974 I might have thought that also.
I am sad people’s property values are falling, for most of us that is our major investment. And, blaming one political party for this mess is short sighted. There are too many issues to even list. We spent, and spent, and spent…like the money would never run out. And now we are stuck with overpaid admins and county office people. Nurses, assistants, teachers, and librarians, who have spent lifetimes in the schools have been “fired”. I complained about my salary..till I went somewhere that paid way ($22,000) less.
I hope people realize our educational system will need to be restructured to meet 21st century demands. Old ways and coddling kids just does not work. We need more competitive schools, with different goals for a variety of kids. The one way fits all is not really good anymore. Maybe it is a good thing I am not teaching anymore.

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@Poor (Proud) Black Man,

You ask Maureen does she have a computer well do you have a DICTIONARY??????????????
You seem to spend a great deal of time on your computer there is also a DICTIONARY search on any web use it.

It also, seems that you don’t have any type of professional job because many of those job refer to tenure.

The definition is: a holding, as of property, office,etc; the right to hold or posses something; the length of time something is held; conditions of possession; permanent possessions, as of an office or position.
(Webster’s New World Dictionary-The American Language-College Edition. (1968).

See even a dictionary as old as 42 years has that information-YOU JUST HAVE TO LOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HUGS!!!!!!! (Now watch that BLOOD PRESSURE)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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unions….
sure, good idea. states all over the nation are trying to climb out from under the fiscal suicide of educational and government unions
- and you folks want to try it yourselves.

you think it’s hard to effect change now….

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Unions are necessary whenever the management abuses workers. And, this is what is now happening in GA education.

In addition, teacher unions actually HELP with decisions and side with what is BEST for student learning as opposed to making business decisions for other reasons. Someone has to stand up for what’s best for students – especially since the republicans in this State do not!

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As a teacher and tax payer, I do not support raising taxes to fix the current budget crisis. Throwing money at this situation is not the answer. Right sizing the Central Office Staff and over paid administrators is what needs to happen before taxes are raised. If you think that raising your taxes is going to mean better schools you are very wrong, because unless the money is properly spent, it’s just being flushed down the toilet.

All political parties are to blame. Our government in general is not watching how money is being spent and unfortunately the children that we are educating will end up in a huge heap of debt.

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School districts take the path of least resistence: teachers’ salaries. It has always been this way. There is so much waste in education that it is unbelieveable…books are bought and discarded way too soon, unneeded supplies are bought because budgets will be cut if the money is not spent (have to show need), and administration (especially the district office , but also some schools) is top heavy and fat.

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@ HS

I chose my words intentionally. Even if I didn’t I’m still not
stupid enought to try myself to a union in this imploding
economy

insteresting logic from someone who allegedly teaches

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@ john konop,

interesting start for discussion. couple of thoughts

1) make the cuts where? knowing how agressively they protect
their own, it would probably be office and janitorial staff

2) pre or post tax?

3) how are you defining administrators?

4) you’re assuming they’re capable of teaching a class. not
a given anymore.

5) charge who? the students, the district, the state, other?

6) most (if not all) activities already do. what I pay annually
for my kid to be in band ….

7) not practical. in Gwinnett for example students are bursting
from the seams at nearly every school. but it would be a good idea
to have a neutral/external 3rd party verify the buildings are really
needed.

what would really help would be to get us out from under the required
lowest bidder/minority participation requirement. whatever we allegedly
save gets eaten up by the fixes and retrofits these buildings require.

pretty much already done. most the folks who do the traveling
are admin types – teachers are in class

9) brace yourself for cries of racism. what might be a better idea
is to see if we’re getting these lunches supplied at competitive prices

10) good idea in principal, not necessarly good in reality. while we
welcome and love volunteers, by their very nature we can’t rely on them.
office staff and class assistants are vital to a smooth running school.
if anything, these folks should get raises.

11) not sure how much we’re legally able to compete with the local
economy. we already host community enrichment classes as a sort of limited con ed.

12) fine by me

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Any downsizing of the government school bureaucracy to balance the budget helps our family. Keeping property taxes lower also helps our family. This is more money for our free market home school. Our school is very efficient and has less than a 5 to 1 teacher/pupil ratio. Our ITBS scores have been in the 95+ percentile range. My students’ courses are tailored to their strengths and interests. All are artistic. More than one has had their work selected for a traveling children’s art exhibition based in New York. Another has been hired to do CSI book illustrations. All my students have current technology and each has his/her own computer. All have studied a foreign language since elementary school. All have traveled abroad and had the opportunity to visit many famous landmarks. They regularly participate in volunteer work days. My students also have regular chores to maintain the house and yard. They will not own a cell phone until they can pay for one themselves. We have been able to accomplish all of these things by living frugally and paying CASH for everything. The government schools cannot match what I do for a fraction of their per/pupil spending. To top it off, our property taxes continue to support the education of another’s child. We are hard working productive citizens raising responsible, educated children. WHY SHOULD WE BE PENALIZED FOR GOVERNMENT’S GREED AND MISMANAGEMENT? How many parents out there used the public schools so you could buy those nice $200-$300 thousand dollar homes that have lost half their value? IS THIS MY FAULT? Should my family have to pay for your greed and lack of money management skills? If individuals had acted responsibly, they wouldn’t have taken the bankers bait and purchased homes with artificially low interest rates. They took on debt way out of line with their income and never thought there would be a rainy day. Well, today there is a thunderstorm and you are getting SOAKED!

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Walton High School Parent…..I don’t believe that you really understand…..it is not that they are giving the Wheeler magnet program so much “disproportional” resources or attention. It is the fact that the parents, teachers and students in the magnet program are so passionate and vocal about quality education. Perhaps if Walton were on block scheduling, your child could take “8 classes for free” instead of 6 with zero period or summer classes for $600. From what I have read, Wheeler students and parents are vocalizing the frustrations of all of us in Cobb County.

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A very good question:

Do you have any sense of how much all of what you are suggesting will actually save? Any ball park figure would be nice.

My guess:

If implemented correctly I would guess it would save most of the teachers’ jobs. I have never had a chance to work on the budget I am just a business guy. But as someone who has made a living as a successful clean up guy I have leaned a few tricks.

1) The DOE cuts would save a lot of administrative cost at the local level. A top heavy management groups tend to create busy work to justify jobs which is very counter productive.

2) By making extra activities cost justify you will also make all involved appreciate it and it will be treated in that manner rather than a right. And that in itself fosters an attitude that cuts waste. Also it would foster more revenue generating ideas if people paid.

3) Eliminating math 123 would have huge savings via repeated grades, summer school…… Also by allowing kids the option to track toward a vocational degree without mandatory college bound classes, we would lower the drop out rates and create a work ready graduates which would contribute tax revenue rather than drop-outs that drain the system.

4)By getting the community involved in the school via volunteers it would be easier to raise money for schools via an attachment.

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@John Konop

Having been in education for 19 years (started later in life than most) You are correct in many of your assumptions, but especially #3.

It is right on target. European countries and other countries test children for aptitude around 7 or 8th grade and they are channeled into a vocational or college track. We need excellent training in the vocational areas before students graduate from high school not after. I have taught special ed, regular ed, and gifted classes. I have seen students out of their league and how they struggle (and this includes non-motivated gifted students).

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I see many great comments and ideas on here. I agree that many administrative positions can easily be cut. An administrator needs only 3 years in the classroom (still “wet behind the ears”) in order to tell others what to do. My county will NOT hire a good teacher with an opinion as an administrator. They love young, uninformed, inexperienced administrators who have no real opinion on anything. That way the higher ups can train them on exactly what to say and do….zombies. They often run everything….and you are right that teachers have no control over anything anymore. Teachers are told every move to make….and admonished if even the smallest offense by a colleague is not reported…yet they do not want to hear what students do. If teachers complain about students, it is time for said teacher to take another class in Diversity, Classroom Discipline, etc. These idiots need to GO!

To those who think they want a union, you DON’T! ALL teachers would be forced to join the union and to adhere to its guidelines. You merely trade one boss for another…..neither of whom you may particularly care for. I have many friends in unionized states….and some like it; others do NOT.

By the way, you already have a “union” in Georgia……Georgia Association of Educators….and PAGE really is a union also…by definition. One writer, N.Ga., was correct in saying that Georgia is a “right to work” state and teachers cannot strike. Do it and you will be replaced….easily. So, organize and strike if you like. Many are waiting to take your place. That makes teachers even more beaten down.

Tenure does not exist in Georgia below college level. What does exist are DUE PROCESS RIGHTS after the 3rd contract (may be 4th…my memory is fading) is offered to a teacher. All that means is that during the first few years when a teacher does not have those rights, he/she can be dismissed without cause. In other words, administrators will not tell you why you no longer have a job. After Due-Process rights have been “earned”, administrators can still get rid of teachers, but adequate cause must be documented. I laugh at those who mistakenly believe administrators cannot get rid of “bad” teachers. Just because a teacher disagrees with a parent or does something a parent doesn’t like does not make that teacher a “bad” teacher. Any administrator worth a dime can get rid of a truly “bad” teacher…but they cannot get rid of them without proper documentation and without cause.

I do believe Mr. Platt lost his job primarily because he was too vocal. He knew too much. He had too many ideas and was not afraid to express himself. For a teacher without due-process rights, that is not a good move. My advice to Mr. Platt if he wishes to continue teaching is to learn the system…..which is….keep your mouth shut, your ideas to yourself, and make it through your first 3 years without incident. After you have established yourself, you can begin to share ideas with certain key people. Anytime you put yourself in the limelight, you endanger your teaching position….no matter how good you may really be! Otherwise, find another job where you can speak freely. Lesson: teachers do NOT have freedom of speech. Did I say I agree with that? No, but that is the “system”, at least here in Georgia. I suspect that is true everywhere else, given what my friends around the nation have told me!

To the HS Teacher who thinks Republicans are at the root of all educational evils: You apparently are either new to this state, new to education, or do not keep up with political events very well. Roy Barnes, a Democrat, did more to hurt education than any governor before or since. HB 1187 is a document we are still digging out from. He disrespected teachers openly….hence his non-effective bid for re-election. He took over the TRS board and replaced even good Democrats with his own folks. He fired the TRS investment firm and hired his own choice of investment firms. Sonny may have tried a few things with TRS, but Roy Barnes succeeded! Guess what? I believe that investment firm is still with TRS. Maybe they are good…DK…but I resent a sitting governor exercising such authority over the teachers’ money! I will respond to your 11 items:
1. Why are HS math standards confusing? Please explain. Saying it does not make it so.
2. Standardized testing has been around forever. We use CRCT in ways that are valuable for education and instruction. Apparently you don’t use those scores…..but many of us “good” teachers do. I believe the EOCT is a great idea that came about because too many high schools in Georgia instruct students at about a 2nd grade level and those students get HS diplomas. Parents in those schools need to wake up, support the school, keep their children off the street, out of gangs, and need to value education. I’m still all for EOCT.
3. What do you mean? I am totally in the dark. Who “cheated” in the name of improving a test? Standardized tests or teacher-made tests?
4. I agree. No furloughs. The Democrats were part of this decision also. It’s bi-partisan!
5. Republicans did not strip teacher contributions to retirement if you are referring to DeKalb County and their choice about Social Security. Many school systems do not have their employees paying into Social Security…and this has been going on for over 20 years. Can’t blame it on Republicans! If it bothers you, move to a system where you will pay into Social Security. Problem solved! Contributions to TRS go up and down depending on the economy. Apparently you have not been around long. Be grateful for what you have and stop expecting everything to stay the same or increase for you when everyone else around you is losing their jobs right and left. Economies, by nature, go up and down. Everything, including teacher salaries and retirement, has to adjust to a changing economy. You can’t blame economic problems on Republicans…..when this economic downturn was spurred by the Democrat congress of approx. 1993….but that’s another issue.
6. Reduced teacher benefits result from your own school system….and if you are in DeKalb, you have Democrats to blame!
7. Refuse step increases…..refer to #5 above.
8. Explain how Perdue attempted to change the retirement system. Read my earlier comments about Barnes. I have first-hand knowledge of how Barnes worked against TRS! Any attempt by Sonny is small potatoes compared with what Barnes actually did do…..and will do again if you give him the opportunity.
9. Republicans did not lay teachers off. Every school system was given how much had to be cut….and the latitude to cut as they saw fit. Get in the face of your own school system….your own Democrat school system….for answers on this one. Georgia’s budge MUST balance. It is not like the federal….which can carry a deficit large enough to enslave us all for generations. That means every area must take the hit…..including schools. I have been in schools long enough to know that much money is wasted by administrators and board members in high positions. Get mad with them, for a change!
10. Legislators in general, in all political parties, are often ignorant and/or indifferent to educational realities. We need to educate them. No legislator has forced class size increases. That, again, is left up to the local board of education. Yours is Democrat controlled. Talk to them!!! See if you get anywhere with YOUR DEMOCRATS!
11. Who has been hired at DOE during this period of time? I would like an answer to this one! Are they Republicans? Are any Democrats in the bunch?

Do you have any idea how many Republicans are AGAINST VOUCHERS? Open your thick skull, please! Republican politicians are told often that they will NOT be elected if they embrace vouchers. I am certainly against them, and I happen to be a Republican.

It bothers me that we have HS teachers who are as politically uninformed as you. I’ll bet you have your head so far up Obama’s socialist posterior that you cannot see the light of day! Hope you don’t take that love for socialism to the classroom with you! You give educators a bad name! We are supposed to be a little more bi-partisan, aren’t we? Of course, I am retired….and proud of it!

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