Which students suffer most from teacher layoffs? Anyone surprised it’s poor, minority students?
With cash-strapped systems across the country resorting to laying off teachers, there is increasing concern over which teachers are being let go and why. Now, the Center on Reinventing Public Education at the University of Washington says seniority-based layoff policies disproportionately affect the programs and students in their poorer and more minority schools than in their wealthier, less minority counterparts.
The center looked at 15 largest districts in California and found that teachers at risk of layoffs are concentrated in schools with more poor and minority students. (You can read the entire brief “The Disproportionate Impact of Seniority-Based Layoffs on Poor, Minority Students” on the center’s Website.)
According to the center:
In these districts, if seniority-based layoffs are applied for teachers with up to two years’ experience, highest-poverty schools would lose some 30 percent more teachers than wealthier schools, and highest-minority schools would lose 60 percent more teachers than would schools with the fewest minority students.
The analysis concludes: “Where districts seek to minimize the effects of budget reduction policies on students . . . it is clear that the disproportionate impact of seniority-based layoffs on high-poverty and high-minority schools must be considered.”
In reading the brief, I found this comment interesting as there has been little discussion by policymakers and school boards in Georgia about the impact of teacher layoffs in Georgia:
So what’s the effect of these layoffs on students? For those who believe teachers are interchangeable, swapping out a junior teacher for one from across the district might not seem so problematic. And yet, a growing body of research has documented that “churn” in teachers in some schools is in-deed problematic, particularly to its ability to function coherently. When schools see more teacher turnover, established relationships are lost— such as with families and teachers, between teachers, and with principals and teachers. Teacher turnover means that process of building and sustaining working relationships starts over. Additionally, site-based professional developme and teachers reassigned may be unhappy in their new assignments. All of these fagether to further destabilize schools with high turnover, to the detriment of students
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153 comments Add your comment
Booklover
May 21st, 2010
9:26 am
The lawmakers of Georgia have made it clear that they only care about the constituents who can pay for fishponds, three-martini lunches, and steak dinners.
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May 21st, 2010
9:48 am
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Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
9:49 am
This isn’t new Maureen. Amerikkka has shown, consistently, that education is not a priority in minority majority districts. However the white right doesn’t mind building more prisons.
EnoughAlready
May 21st, 2010
9:53 am
I agree and believe that high churn for teachers is a problem. My daughter is always following up with classmates about where old teachers are currently. The kids, parents and other faculty bond with each other.
What happened to the good old days when teachers were a part of the community and not just for a certain contract period?
My high school principal was my mothers math teacher. My english, history, PE and math teachers taught all of my older cousins, my aunts and uncles. We couldn’t get away with anything and the expectations were set.
Randy
May 21st, 2010
10:02 am
Ain’t Republican word great!
With the money I’ve saved from a decade of tax cuts, I’ll be closing on my second beach house this afternoon.
God Bless conservative leadership for rewarding those who want to work!
The Aristocrat
May 21st, 2010
10:20 am
How dreadfully dreary for all those poor, oppressed minorities. But to quote my good friend, Ty Webb, ‘the world needs ditch diggers too, son.’
Go Fish
May 21st, 2010
10:20 am
Sonny Perdue has sent millions of taxpayer dollars down to his home town for the brilliant “Go Fish” program—it’s created thousands of new jobs!!!!! Sonny—economic genius!!!!!
Bill
May 21st, 2010
10:25 am
Of course the lower social economic areas are going to be effected the most. Those are the districts that aren’t putting money into the pot and a majority of the people are already riding the government’s coat tails. At what point do we stop supporting these people and force them to take responsibilty for themselves and the many children they keep having. I see these same people driving around in cars with expensive rims and stereo systems, designer clothes, and the best cell phones. Where are the priorities. Its “what can I get” attitude that keeps them where they are at. They have these outlandish dreams of being a rapper or basketball star and don’t focus on education. They want, want, want, and have no concepts of working hard to earn it. This isn’t everyone, but it is a lot.
fulldawg
May 21st, 2010
10:26 am
Let us not forget the highway to “Go Fish” territory (and the Republican majority in the senate and house that have supported Sonny on all that he has gotten. He will never have to run again and they do.
Elizabeth
May 21st, 2010
10:27 am
It is not always the poor minority student. The ones who nearly ALWAYS get hurt ar the ones wh are quiet B-C studetns who are ignored while teachers deal with discipline problems and low performing studdents who do not have the skills or do not care and do not try. The are generally not behavior problems or failing or much below gradelevel, so they get little of the teacher’s time. But no one thinks anything aout it because they are in the silent majority.
And why don't they stay?
May 21st, 2010
10:30 am
Why do people seem to think it is the republicans fault that teachers in minority districts won’t stay and therefore have less seniority? By definition, teachers are less likely to stay at troubled schools. Who would prefer to teach at a school where students and parents largely don’t seem to care about their education, it is dangerous, etc when they could teach elsewhere. Sorry, but blaming ‘whitey’ doesn’t make any sense in this case.
The real problem is keeping teachers due to seniority. It is a shame to have to fire any teachers due to the budget – but facts are facts. If they must be let go, principals should name the bottom 10% of their teachers based on ability – at troubled and other schools – regardless of seniority and those are the ones that should get walking papers. In fact, the bottom 10% should probably be let go every year. Why do we keep low performing teachers when low performers in any other business would be let go? Our students deserve better.
Confussedd
May 21st, 2010
10:31 am
I am a bit offended by Proud Black Man because I have taught in a high minority school and saw that the poor working conditions were not all caused by the school. Kids with their pants on the ground, cursing out the staff, fighting in the hallways and their parents whom rarely cared what was going on in school was not motivating. When the parents did come in to complain they often were stoned, drunk or worse behaved than their kids. Proud Black Man should have to stand and listen to some kid cussing him out and threatening him and then be told by the administration that the lawyers say their is nothing they can do. I am sure his outlook would change if he saw the stupidity that public schools are dealing with from both legislation, students, lawyers, parents, and administrators.
the prof
May 21st, 2010
10:33 am
P Blakkk Man….you aren’t black. Quit being a pretender.
Samantha
May 21st, 2010
10:33 am
This is so unfortunate that minority students have to suffer because of the bad decisions our law makers are making! I am TOTALLY against laying off teachers! Put it this way…would you rather a child to get educated with the best education in this country, or would you rather that same child that lives across town from where you live – have him or her bash your head in because why??? They were NOT given an equal chance for a good education in this country! This is the reason why Chinese children are doing so much better than American children!! WAKE UP LAW MAKERS AND OPEN YOUR EYES AND STOP BUILDING PRISONS’ FOR OUR CHILDREN IN THIS COUNTRY!!!
Devil's Advocate
May 21st, 2010
10:33 am
Oh yes, the plight of the quiet white kid…so long oppressed. Thank you for bringing this terrible situation to light.
john
May 21st, 2010
10:33 am
Another slanted liberal crap study….
Since the wealthy, working neighbors actually pay all of the taxes, yes, they should get more say
CRB
May 21st, 2010
10:38 am
I also take exception to “Proud Black Man’s” comments.
My mother, grandmother, sister, and uncle were (or are) all public school teachers and I grew up intimately aware of what public school teachers endure on the job.
I can tell you, with some authority, that parental support and involvement are the single biggest factor in many cases. Kids are resilient and can learn in a variety of situations if they have support at home that supports the effort.
Unfortunately, some demographics provide more parental support than others. Its a sad fact.
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
10:48 am
Proud Black Man could care less who “takes offense” at my remarks. It is what it is. And for you tea (fill in the name that cannot be spoken” complaining of “Kids with their pants on the ground…” and “…parents did come in to complain they often were stoned, drunk or worse…” go somewhere else with your racist stereotypes.
RobertNAtl
May 21st, 2010
10:49 am
It’s not about the “plight” of the “quiet white kid” (nor did Elizabeth posit the “quiet kid’s” race); it’s the plight of the quiet kid of *any* race who are ignored while teachers deal with the continually disruptive students. It is a real problem in our schools, and I would submit that many parents who enroll their children in private schools are doing so not for reasons of racial prejudice, but rather in an attempt to avoid the disruptive students who make it more difficult for the “quiet” students to learn because the public school system is either unwilling or legally unable to effectively discipline the students who are continually disruptive.
H
May 21st, 2010
10:49 am
By minority students, I assume you mean the white students??? I know what you’re hinting at…Black and Hispanic are the poor minority blah, blah, blah…Have you looked at these statistics yet??? Click the link below….This is the state of state department of Ga. Most of the metro schools are all Black…how do you think the “minority” white kids who attend those majority black metro schools feel when you still refer to the Black and Hispanics as the “poor minority”??? What about the poor minority white kids??? Notice the rapid increase in Hispanic population in the school system between 2000-2008… and then look at the free lunch increase as well…alarming! And your tax dollars pay for this! The sad thing is people take advantage of programs such as free lunch which take away from other areas of costs such as teacher pay. Unfortunately, the portion of the Black and Hispanic population who take advantage of there “free” lunch (by the way, there is no such ting as free lunch, somebody has to pay for it) is disproportionate to the White population who is on free or reduced lunch. I’m sick and tired of hearing how (what you call) the poor minority (Black and Hispanic) populations don’t have enough and how they will struggle even more unless we throw more money their way…poor Black, White, Hispanic students are poor because their parents made poor choices…90% of them and their parents don’t care about their education or the money that is spent on their education. All I’m saying is, don’t leave out the poor minority white kids Downey…
http://www.georgiaeducation.org/ReportCenter/reportcenter.jsp
Just A Grunt
May 21st, 2010
10:51 am
I will listen to these “It’s all about the chillins” argument when the teachers unions don’t openly oppose efforts for the state to get some federal grants just because they don’t like the governor. Until then there is no reason those in academia should be spared some of the pain the rest of us are feeling. Maybe if they got out of their classrooms once in awhile they could get some sense of how bad things are. On the other hand if they had any marketable skills they might have been able to get a job in the private sector. Teachers hate jocks because even jocks manage to get a business management degree to use once their athletic career is over. For teachers they can’t bear the thought of life outside the walls of a school.
ChristieS.
May 21st, 2010
10:53 am
@And why don’t they stay: “If they must be let go, principals should name the bottom 10% of their teachers based on ability – at troubled and other schools – regardless of seniority and those are the ones that should get walking papers.”
The problem with such a blanket policy would be that you would have very few new teachers in your system. In my opinion, which seems to be borne out by the ongoing RIFs, the majority of “emerging” teachers are those who are new to the profession. Teaching is definitely a talent, but just like any other skill, talent only takes you so far. PRACTICE hones your talent from adequate to good, and in some cases, exceptional. A new teacher gets that practice in the first years of their career.
Now, if you want to talk about providing a paid, full-time apprenticeship as a co-teacher for the first couple of years, then we could talk. I’d be willing to work that apprenticeship if part of the “wage” was payment of my student loans plus a stipend to help pay my bills. My personal situation could handle that. I don’t speak for anyone else.
Wonder
May 21st, 2010
10:53 am
Proud of what
Wonder
May 21st, 2010
10:53 am
… being a dumbass
ChristieS.
May 21st, 2010
10:56 am
::sigh:: filtered, and so early, too!
Maureen Downey
May 21st, 2010
10:56 am
Christie, You are out.
ChristieS.
May 21st, 2010
10:59 am
LOL, thanks Maureen. I saw my “escape” just as I posted my whine.
godogs
May 21st, 2010
10:59 am
Yes, the poor and minoritys were hit hardest. But, we spend soooooo much money on them to begin with in remediational classes, resource officers, ISS, alternative schools, afterschools, summer schools, transportation, food, etc…that they have to take a hit just like everyone else.
In our schools systems, we spend so much time and effort on those in the back, that we forget about those in the middle (black, white, hispanic,) who would benefit the most from the educational process. I’m so sick of hearing about the back of the pack. We are dumbing down our schools for those who don’t care about school to begin with (parents included).
Why not do a study on the sufferage of stduents who are in the middle class that have to endure the behavior problems of others or have to go slower in their classes because of the kids who refuse to do their homework and classwork! I would like to address that issue.
Angela
May 21st, 2010
10:59 am
Howdy Confussed,
You know it is a shame that everyone can tell us more about our jobs than we can. Everyone, has a solution but ain’t coming in to solve or use their solution. I have always heard that if you don’t have a sound and active solution to the problem you are D— sure a part of the problem. Hugs!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. We as educators don’t get paid to deal with STUPID and guess what due to pay decreases we showwwwwwwwwwwwwwww (surely) don’t get paid to deal with STUPID. XOXO
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
11:03 am
@ Wonder
Is that the best you can come up with?
TW
May 21st, 2010
11:03 am
The ignorant replies to Proud Black Man only serve to further validate his truth.
This idea that white America has little to do with the poor living conditions that often abound at minority schools is just about the most unChristian thing going in America thus far this decade.
Vertigo
May 21st, 2010
11:04 am
You simply can’t have one without the other. I’ve lived in other parts of the country – and my current GA experience has made it clear that I probably won’t retire here.
What good is it to simply say “…I’ve paid more taxes than the next guy – so therefore my kid deserves more than their kid”…because at the end of the day, with all of the grooming – the highly educated tend to leave…and who will you be stuck with? Yep, that’s right…
I come from a family that truly VALUED education. No, they weren’t elitist college grads – they were blue collar workers but understood that values and morals start at home. My mom and dad made it EXTREMELY clear that my job was to get an education. I wouldn’t have DREAMED of doing some of the things I see kids do in school now.
And many of you said it – (CRB, Samantha) and you’re right on…parents “check out” and so do their kids…no expectation at all.
Good morals, high expectation, and pride doesn’t have a color…
Erica manswell-hinds
May 21st, 2010
11:18 am
I am a mother of 4 wonderfully smart and stil being educated black children.all blacks aren;t looking for a hand out myself and family members have worked hard all our lives and paid taxes whites are not the only ones that pay taxes we as black people are not looking for something to be given all the time but how about and half even playing field.You speak about the being tired of blacks crying about not having and the whites get because they pay all the taxes.That is crap.Whites in this country like to have and under dog so they can feel superior.As long as they keep their knee in your back on the ground and then tell you get up its not hard,they look at you like why aren;t you trying to succeed.But in reality you don;t want them to succed.The majority of blacks just want an oppurtunity to do what whites have taken for granted all their lives.Get an aducation and live a decent life.So stop looking at the news and grouping all blacks with the ones that do wrong.Until you walk in my shoes don;t assume you know how they fit.
Hot Tuna
May 21st, 2010
11:19 am
Here we go arguing and throwing bricks at one another based on race and class while the kids are suffering…Not just in the classroom but in life also because we are showing them how to argue and throw bricks at one another based on race and class….
Just A Teacher
May 21st, 2010
11:24 am
According to an earlier article on this blog, the South has more Hispanic, African American, and Asian students in public schools than Caucasians. So who is the minority being referenced here? Are teachers being laid off mostly from affluent Caucasian neighborhoods? Those, I think, would be the minority students in Georgia. Until we get over this fascination with race and start to treat every person equally, there can be no equality in education. Stop worrying about whether a school has more children of a certain race and focus on keeping quality teachers in ALL of our schools!
Ron Mexico
May 21st, 2010
11:25 am
Hey proud black man, yeah its all white peoples fault. Keep believing that and you will never get anywhere in life buddy. Its always everyone elses fault isn’t it. How bout you get out there and do something instead of pulling the race card everytime something happens that you don’t like.
Aristotle
May 21st, 2010
11:26 am
The world -especially mass media -revolves around -the poor -the minority -geez maybe the problem in those communities is the parenting or lack of it? Trillions of dollars spent on minority this- minority that and where does it get us? The same place it started. A wise teacher once told me -it doesn’t matter how much money is spent -it doesn’t matter how much training is given to teachers -the one factor that makes the biggest difference and one we can’t control is how important the parents make education at home .! Witness the asian families who start with nothing can’t speak English and somehow their kids end up graduating at the top of their class. African (real Africans not the wanna be Afro-Americans) emphasize education when it is available and produce incredibly smart kids -here in the USA poor are given everything from housing to food to free meals at school more money per student then all the affluent schools and what is the result -nothing!
Ron Mexico
May 21st, 2010
11:28 am
Good point Aristotle, definately STARTS at home. If you don’t give a crap about your kids and what they do in school, no one else will.
Dee
May 21st, 2010
11:37 am
And once more, the political class and their lapdog media get what they are seeking – a class and race dispute. Can we PLEASE stop falling into their trap? The establishment and rise of the political class will be the death of our great nation if we do not put a stop to it. “We have to cut programs in your schools because those evil rich/white people won’t pay their fair share.” “Those evil poor/minority people are not paying their fair share and they are taking from your district so we have to cut programs in your schools.” Blah, blah, blah. All they are really trying to do is dumb-down all of our children so that the political class and their elite friends can prosper. And while we are all busy pointing fingers at one another and screaming “racist” they are succeeding. I encourage everyone with a child to take the time to educate your child. Instead of worrying about who is to blame for inadequate programs at your school, make the time to teach your child what he/she needs to know to fill in the gaps. Let us not become the ignorant in-fighting squabblers that they want and need us to be.
All American
May 21st, 2010
11:43 am
The best schools always have the highest involvement of parents in the education process. Teachers in minority schools are required to be educated and certified in the same manner as teachers in non minority schools. The rub here is minority schools suffer the most with seniority based layoffs. Teachers with the most seniority don’t want to teach in schools where no parental involvement is present, where no discipline as been established in the family, and where parents on welfare drive expesive cars, have expensive cell phones, and live in shacks. Why should people who work hard, invest time and energy in raising and educating their own children, support those who feel they are entitled to be given everything, without spending a dime or one minute in time, just because their skin color is black. Enough is Enough! For all those parent who have children in minority schools, if you want your child to have an education, get off your fat behinds and get involved or yes we can build more prisons.
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
11:44 am
@ Ron Mexico
Mike Vick has done his time racist and before you attempt to lecture me remove the beam from your own eye bigot.
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
11:46 am
@ Aristotle
“(real Africans not the wanna be Afro-Americans)”
Another tea (insert the name that cannot be spoken) reveals what he really feels. Have a nice day bigot.
Vertigo
May 21st, 2010
11:51 am
“African (real Africans not the wanna be Afro-Americans) emphasize education when it is available and produce incredibly smart kids -here in the USA poor are given everything from housing to food to free meals at school more money per student then all the affluent schools and what is the result -nothing!”
Aristotle you had me – then you lost me. Dealing in generalities never gets us anywhere. Never thought of myself as a “Negro”, “Colored”, “AfroAmerican”, or even the newly accepted “African American” – because I am descendant of slaves that were brought here and I was born here, so I’m simply an American. I didn’t emigrate here.
I come from a family that valued education, that didn’t accept excuses, and that had high expectations – and contrary to public opinion – there are many more like me.
Unfortunately, when all you see are the folks you describe above – assumptions are made.
Teacher
May 21st, 2010
11:54 am
It is regretful what is happening with all of the teacher layoffs. To say that “high povery” schools would lose more teachers beacuse of a seniority policy is not really telling the whole truth. Actually the school would have more experienced teachers re-assigned there. I am not saying that having teachers that are transferred to the school is seamless and would not effect education, but to paint a study that says the “poorer” schools would lose more teachers makes it sound unproportional, which it is not. It just means that more experienced teachers would replaced the less experienced teachers at said school.
H
May 21st, 2010
12:00 pm
Erica manswell-hinds- You start your post off well, but then end by showing your true racist anger towards whites…by doing to the white population exactly what you are asking whites NOT to do to blacks, which is generalize them into one group…here is the problem… if you take the entire black population in the US, then take the % of that population that is receiving some sort of government subsidy, it is disproportionate to the % of the white population as a whole receiving subsidies…same is true for the Hispanic population…nobody says there aren’t hard working blacks and Hispanics who don’t depend on Gov. assistance or feel the need to leach off the system. The problem is we can’t afford to pay teachers with tax payer dollars when more and more people are relying on government subsidies and less and less people are paying TAXES…it’s mainly the Democrats who push these subsidies to people (mainly to Black and Hispanic population) in order to gain their vote. Just like the current administration is doing now. Democrats depend on people being dumb and uneducated to manipulate their minds.
jbm
May 21st, 2010
12:03 pm
Has anybody stopped to wonder why. The simple answer is that as soon as the teacher can transfer out of the “Poor” district, they move on to schools where the student want to learn, where the school is not over run by thugs and baby mammy.
In any event thank goodness for more prisons, because most of these “poor” children are from one parent homes and are heading there any how. At least when their in prison they can have more children. If you so concerned about these “poor” kids take one home.
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
12:07 pm
@ H
“Democrats depend on people being dumb and uneducated to manipulate their minds.”
And what do republicans depend on? I’m patiently awaiting your answer.
Remy
May 21st, 2010
12:10 pm
The problem here is that government schools aren’t run like businesses that are in crisis mode. If anything, it should be the older (and usually burned out) teachers and admins that get the boot. Seriously, offer them an early retirement package and call it a day.
Keep the younger teachers that stand a chance of reaching the kiddies – not the dinosaurs that are just coasting til retirement. Besides, the younger teachers are paid far less than their senior counterparts. Problem solved.
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
12:10 pm
@ jbm
“…where the school is not over run by thugs and baby mammy.”
Another tea (insert the name that cannot be spoken) whose frontal lobes have been destroyed by that insidious practice.
Jim
May 21st, 2010
12:13 pm
With all do respect, it seems that most people commenting here ignore the substance of the study. It concludes that seniority-based layoffs are bad because it results in more turnover at schools with a predominantly-poor student population. In other words, teachers with greater seniority tend to move to schools with a lower population of poor students, so schools with a predominantly-poor student population have less senior teachers.
The study is not about race. The study makes the following point – that turnover is bad for students and, since teachers with less seniority tend to be at schools with a predominantly-poor student population, when seniority-based layoffs occur, these schools suffer a disproportionate loss of teachers familiar with that school. While I am not convinced of the study’s premise, I will take it at face value. Remedies can be implemented that do not cost any money. These remedies include a district policy that distributes teachers at schools based on some mix of seniority rather than giving teachers the choice of where they teach based on seniority or having merit-based layoffs instead of seniority-based layoffs.
You can complain about the state of education generally in GA, but that is not what this study is about. This problem has simple, costless fixes. Fix the problems one at a time. Stop whining. Stop expecting the state to magically fix things.
I have one more point to make. Aristocrat, you are dead wrong. Judge Smails, not Ty Webb, said “Well, the world needs ditch diggers too.”
jbm
May 21st, 2010
12:20 pm
PBM
How about the City of Atlanta School system. Have you read the stories about the CRCT cheating? Over 50 shcools in the City of Atlanta School System were cheating.
Or maybe Dekalb County where 3 people where actually indicated for their part in the cheating and entered gulity pleas to felonies.
Booklover
May 21st, 2010
12:34 pm
@jbm “If you [sic] so concerned about these “poor” kids take one home.”
With paycuts, student loans, etc., I can’t afford to take one home.
I do, however, teach them everyday and provide a caring, stable adult in their lives.
It’s very easy to do as you do, hide behind a computer screen, make inflammatory comments, and not do a d*mn thing to change all the problems you’re complaining about.
It’s a lot harder to get up every morning, go to a job that earns you little but public scorn, teach kids who are sometimes recalcitrant and often hungry and sleepy, and provide a shoulder when they need it.
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
12:36 pm
@ jbm
Once again “…where the school is not over run by thugs and baby mammy.” What does a thug or baby mammy have to do with a SUPPOSEDLY cheating scandal? Please see a neurologist to get your frontal lobes repaired.
Truth
May 21st, 2010
12:51 pm
Some of these administrators are cheating with each other when responsible for testing in our schools. Is it no wonder they would cheat on the test itself. Look at Gwinnett County’s Richard’s Middle AP and GIVE West Middle APs. Both testing coords. were busted having an inappropriate relationship and the mess does effect our kids.
too much drama
Poor Pay Taxes
May 21st, 2010
12:55 pm
The state is primarily funded by sales tax. Everyone regardless of your income pays sales tax. As a matter of fact, the sales tax is a regressive tax because poor people spend a higher amount of their income on sales tax than their middle and upper class counterparts. So everyone should get the best services the state can provide. 87% of people in the poorest minority communities actually do work. So they contribute to society. I will admit their lack of education and marketable skills prevent them from generating incomes that can pull them and their neighborhoods up but let’s not throw untrue statements out on a blog. When was the last time some of you actually spent time in a neighborhood volunteering, getting to know the residents, and trying to understand the true conditions from which they live under. I do. I don’t see all of this driving with rims, and bling that somehow all of you who don’t go into these neighborhoods see. Tell me how do you really know what is going on in a community if you don’t go there to see for yourself. QUIT THROWING OUT ALL OF THESE FALSE CLAIMS ABOUT WHAT POOR PEOPLE ARE DOING, IF YOU DO NOT SPEND TIME WITH ALL OF THESE SO-CALLED POOR PEOPLE.
Truth be Told
May 21st, 2010
1:00 pm
Just look at it from the perspective of The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules. Translation: As long as the majority of the wealth and power in this country are in the hands of whites, guess what? We will continue to make the rules, and everyone else will just have to play by them. Now we do throw some bones every once in a while, 1964 comes to mind. However, the reality is that until the Black population is able to surpass the white population in wealth and power, nothing is really going to change. At the rate of progression I’ve seen by the black community since 1964, I can honestly say that it won’t in my lifetime.
H
May 21st, 2010
1:03 pm
@PBM-
And what do republicans depend on? I’m patiently awaiting your answer.
Ohhhh….did I strike a nerve with my controversial post? This will be the only time I respond to you because you # 1. Are most likely not really black. # 2. Believe what I say is true but elect to argue and oppose… just to play the devils advocate. # 3. Would be a waste of my time… Sorry to speculate so much but that’s the feeling I get…so to answer your question, “most” republicans depend on the core values and belief system of the people in this country…
Stephen
May 21st, 2010
1:07 pm
@Proud Black Man
So it’s white people (or Amerikkka, as you so eloquently put it) that don’t care about education in minority-majority areas? Why don’t you look within for a solution to your problem, rather than playing the victim, as you seem so apt to do. The black COMMUNITY, as a whole, doesn’t value education. Black children, who strive to achieve in school, and speak proper English, are ostracized for trying to ‘act white’. For far too many young black people, their role models are rappers and athletes, who contribute little more than entertainment to society, and in many cases, add to the epidemic crime statistics perpetrated by blacks. If, and when, the black community itself starts to value the education of their youth, THEN you can start to blame all your people’s educational woe’s on whitey. Until then…this is just more victim-mentality nonsense, perpetuated by leadership that would rather blame someone, that DO SOMETHING.
Did Cynthia Tucker Write this Article??
May 21st, 2010
1:07 pm
So, lets get this straight… If I layoff 30% of the teachers from a poor school, but only 10% of the teachers from the rich school… What happens with the remaining teachers? Some of those at the rich school get transfered to the poor school. The result? The poor school now has more experienced teachers than they started with. Sounds more like an upgrade to me.
Jim
May 21st, 2010
1:08 pm
Poor Pay Taxes
Your numbers are off. The state is primarily funded by personal income tax. In 2009, the state had $15.6 billion in revenues. $7.8 billion was from personal income tax. $5.3 billion was from Sales and use tax. BTW, about $4.7 billion of that was paid by people making more than $100,000 a year, which is less than 10% of the filers.
See here: https://etax.dor.ga.gov/oic/2009stats/TLP_WebStatReportFY2009.pdf
Stephen
May 21st, 2010
1:09 pm
*THAN do something.
Poor pay taxes? HA
May 21st, 2010
1:12 pm
So, you claim that the poor pay more taxes because the state is funded by sales tax…
What things should a poor person be buying…? 1. Food – NO state sales tax. 2. Clothing – there is a sales tax holiday on this as well, again NO state sales tax, 3. Housing – There certainly isn’t a tax on your section 8 housing.
Oh, but yea, you do spend a lot of money on booze, fancy cars, guns, and of course your cell phone, all of which have excessive taxes.. but as a poor black man, you shouldn’t be spening your money on any of that.
Elizabeth
May 21st, 2010
1:14 pm
I never mentioned race in my post. Thee are forgotten silent majority/minority students of all races. Majority was used because I believe that these children are the neglected NUMBER majority of kids who receive little azttentin because teachersa are too busy dealing with disruptors of ALL races.
Tweets that mention Which students suffer most from teacher layoffs? Anyone surprised it’s poor, minority students? | Get Schooled -- Topsy.com
May 21st, 2010
1:25 pm
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Angela
May 21st, 2010
1:39 pm
Hello Everyone & Poor (oh excuse me) Proud Black Man,
The focus here should not be poor people and education. The focus should be do “I we want an education so that I can at least live comfortable.”
I grew up in a housing project in the city of Atlanta and come from a single parent home. I now hold an Ed.S. (Education Specialist) degree in education and writing my dissertation. Not all poor people lack education or desire. I am 54 and most/many of whom I graduated high school with are now professionals. And, we all grew up in the same area if not neighborhood (projects). Perhaps, you should speak of a generation change and not all poor people.
I teach in a low income school In Dekalb County) and my students in second grade can all read on a 4-5th grade level and are very eager to learn. Do most of my parents get involved, at least 80%. My second graders out of 21, all but 3 passed the CRCT. I did not administer the test to my class so no one can say we cheated. So, here again not all poor students are dumb and unwilling to learn. I also, have one male student who passed a three areas and my very well become a statistic however, he will more than likely be the last to become a statistic because he is more of a leader to those who are not so bright.
Proud Black Man – it is obvious that you are PROUD but I would also, say a MALE that lacks a lot in his life. Perhaps, your family life growing up was not what it should have been this is why you are lashing out. Might I suggest mental therapy. It can be free if you go to GRADY!
(I would love to start a BLOG about why many males have trust, love, honesty, etc. issues. Most of which begin with mother’s not being mother’s to their sons not because they come from a single parent home -Just food for thought).
XOXO
@ Jim
May 21st, 2010
2:17 pm
“Remedies can be implemented that do not cost any money. These remedies include a district policy that distributes teachers at schools based on some mix of seniority rather than giving teachers the choice of where they teach based on seniority or having merit-based layoffs instead of seniority-based layoffs.”
Sounds great. And DeKalb County Schools settled a court case in the 1980’s by doing just that. Many, many experienced teachers were moved to schools in low income areas to rebalance the experience ratio. However, since teachers in Georgia can teach wherever they want, they quietly began to leave the system through retirement and/or changing to another system (Gwinnett and Fulton were top attractions). Within the decade, the situation was the same – teachers with greater seniority were concentrated in the Northern, more affluent part of the county and teachers with less seniority were concentrated in the Southern, less affluent part of the county.
You can’t really make a teacher stay in a school unless he/she wants to stay. If you try to make them, they will eventually leave the system. Now in NYC, if you are sent somewhere and you don’t want to work there, you can lose your certificate. Is that what we need in Georgia – forcing teachersto stay and teach where they don’t want to teach with the threat of punishment if they don’t? Maybe we do – NYC does have a strong union. No one is getting laid off there. But there are trade offs and going where you are sent to teach is one of them.
I agree that teacher turnover is a terrible problem – especially in low income neighborhoods (I have a nephew who teaches math in rural Tennessee in a very low income all white school that has the same problems – it’s not a black/white issue at all). My sister and I have been trying to get my nephew to change to another system where the parents are more supportives so he will encounter less stress. Less stress for the same amount of pay – does everyone unerstand that?
Nothing is as simple as it looks on the surface. I’m a retired teacher and I know how tired you get as you get older and remain in teaching. Teaching is really a young person’s game. I think as long as you have 3 to 5 years under your belt, experience becomes a moot point.
Now attracting and retaining competent, enthusiastic teachers to teach in low income situations is the real challenge, no matter if they have 5 years experience or 20 years of experience. My sister and I see how much stress my nephew undergoes trying to “bootstrap” up his students who come into his algegra class often not even knowing how to do long division. He is expected to ensure they master solving algebraic equations. If his scores don’t rise appropriately, he feels awful. Why wouldn’t we want him to go to a nice middle class school where most of the students come ready to learn and when the socres come out, he is complimented – all for the same pay? I think as time goes on he will consider this – he is becoming more and more frustrated.
We need to start thinking about to attract and retain teachers in low income schools. That’s something I never hear studies about.
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
2:53 pm
Funny how the tea (fill in the name that cannot be mentioned) are “acting” so upset because I have no problem calling them on their racism. A quick glance at today’s headlines will tell you which way they REALLY would like Amerikkka to revert to:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/readersrespond/bs-ed-rand-paul-letter-20100521,0,4157518.story
And for their uncle tom steppinfetchits…you know exactly where you can go!
Seen it all
May 21st, 2010
3:25 pm
Ahhhh, it’s amazing the places you can go for free entertainment.
William Casey
May 21st, 2010
3:26 pm
I usually post here, but the level of discourse has degenerated to the point where I’ll simply “pass.”
drew (former teacher)
May 21st, 2010
3:29 pm
PBM…if you’re black, you need to lose the “victim mentality”, or to borrow one of your favorites, “remove the beam from your own eye”. It’s a big part of what’s holding your people down. And I guess you think Bill Cosby is an uncle tom, too. Right?
And if you’re white, you need to get a life.
Which students suffer most from teacher layoffs? Anyone surprised it’s poor … – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) | Minority business grants
May 21st, 2010
3:42 pm
[...] Which students suffer most from teacher layoffs? Anyone surprised it's poor …Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog)I will listen to these “It's all about the chillins” argument when the teachers unions don't openly oppose efforts for the state to get some federal grants …Ed Dept: $437 million in teacher incentive grantsBusinessWeek all 249 news articles » [...]
the prof
May 21st, 2010
3:48 pm
PBM is craving your attention, don’t dignify this non-black person with your comments.
the truth
May 21st, 2010
3:57 pm
This should not be a surprise to people who now whats really going on. Middle class america your time is coming.This shouldnt be a white black issue from the comments i read earlier.Fist of all im black, and i graduated from a poor school.So this stereotype that most of us come out of school buying rims and cell phones are ignorant as the persons saying it.Even the middle class schools dont teach students to critical think they have the middle class right where they want also.So if you feel all high and mighty remember the worlds wealth is in a few hands and when people start to understand this the issue of class will be broken in the years to come.Money causes competition which in turns make man do whatever he can to survive in a world that has been built around this money that really doesnt exist in the first place.When corporate america falls the people will realize they werent rich at all just because you might stay in beverly hills dont mean you have enough money to be part of the elite that control the wealth.
Reality
May 21st, 2010
4:25 pm
Those schools are losing their teachers because that is where the ‘newer’ teachers are. The ‘newer’ teachers are there because as soon as they get any seniority, they transfer to the better schools.
Do you blame them? Who wants to go to work to try and help kids that don’t give a hoot about learning? It is the culture of those schools and those neighborhoods – THAT is the problem.
The parents there need to learn how to parent and raise kids properly. This means to respect adults, obey rules, don’t do drugs, and make education a priority. It really is that simple!
Teaching in FL is worse
May 21st, 2010
4:54 pm
I teach in a relatively wealthy county where the “poor” are either Latino or white, so I am out.
I would, however, suggest to some that they pick up some reading material by Ruby Payne. You will learn quickly that it is expensive to be poor. (regardless of skin color.) Generational poverty is bad enough, but the current economy is increasing the size of the underclass.
During the last administration the number of people below the poverty line increased an insane amount.
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
5:11 pm
Funny how the tea (fill in the name that cannot be mentioned) sidestepped/ignored the comment about that racist from KY running for the senate who happens to be a favorite of the white right. Business as usual in amerikkka.
Just a Thought
May 21st, 2010
5:32 pm
I agree for those who want to understand poverty and its implications for school Ruby Payne’s work would be an excellent starting point. Just don’t stop with Payne. Her Understanding Poverty Framework work is very instructive and helps non-poverty educators start to understand the paradigm that accompanies being poor. I would couple Payne’s work with research into the Harlem Children’s Zone program by Jeffrey Canada. I agree with another poster that the poverty culture of today is not the same as it was 2-3 generations ago. We are dealing with a cultural shift that is more than race or income.
catlady
May 21st, 2010
5:37 pm
Forget the racism charge. Poor schools tend to get the least experienced teachers, which tend to be the ones laid off.
Poor schools also suffer because of high voluntary turnover, in part because of behavior issues.
I don’t think that it is due to racism. On an individual teacher basis, it might be true. But, in general, teachers volunteer to stay where they are happy. If there is a high rate of misbehavior or poor facilities, teachers will voluntarily leave.
However, the point of this is that teachers from these schools are INvoluntarily dismissed more often.
Lee
May 21st, 2010
5:38 pm
More politically correct BS. What the PC Pathogens want is to keep minority teachers regardless of ability or seniority. Probably the same bunch who cry racism when minorities are disciplined at a rate disproportionate to the population.
Wah, wah, wah.
@proud black man
May 21st, 2010
6:16 pm
Would it surprise you that most of the kids suspended in my APS school are black. Most of the criminals that I see on FOX news and Channel 2 news are black. I am in no way racist, but I really don’t like black people plain and simple. PBM call me KKK racist all you want but that doesn’t change the fact that black culture needs to change. One change needed is to value education. PBM come on and give me a wet, smacking kiss on the face like Sammy Davis Jr. did for Archie Bunker on that show. No before sanford and sons
the prof
May 21st, 2010
6:22 pm
PBM is a white person pretending….
Angela
May 21st, 2010
6:30 pm
@ Mr. Simple Just Don’t Like Balck People,
Thank you, for being honest. However, it has been my experience that most White/Caucasins that don’t like Black people really cannot explain why they don’t like us. I was always taught to dislike the individual not a whole race of people. But, regardless I don’t even know you but I like you because you are honest about your feelings. And, that alone let me know that I can trust you more than some others no matter what the race.
Here is a BIG WET KISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. Antipathy causes the blood pressure to rise causing the heart to pump faster causing the heart to have a shorter life span. (SMILES)
the truth
May 21st, 2010
7:41 pm
This is for PBM when i watch cops and the news i see white black and hispanic getting locked up so dont play that race card acting like blacks commit all the crimes in the usa blacks are still a minority so if they did statistics for the entire usa you would find alot of whites on it.Think about it like this if i was the cia and i said lets put a new drug in the white community thats addictive and dangerous and see what happens over time your crime rate will go up housing prices will go down and the police would give up on the community does this sound familiar. Its funny how when i see black people that grew up in urban surroundings do well in life and stay out of trouble.The point of what im saying is your a product of your enviorment if you were born japan you would act like a japanese person.Most of the ghetoes have been torn down so in the years to come you wont be able to make excuses because of enviorment.
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
8:18 pm
http://www.iespell.com/
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
8:20 pm
“I am in no way racist, but I really don’t like black people plain and simple.”
My race has known that since oh say the early1600s. What else is new?
Virginia
May 21st, 2010
8:32 pm
I’ll just bet there are a lot of special education students-of any colour-who are being left out of this “minority” group. The minority groups really don’t give a darn, unless it’s someone their colour,something they are too busy blaming “rich,white republicans” of doing! Typical leftist garbage!
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
9:54 pm
The last gasp or the tea (insert the name that cannot be mentioned):
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37271857/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001
Angela fact check
May 21st, 2010
10:20 pm
I teach in a low income school In Dekalb County) and my students in second grade can all read on a 4-5th grade level and are very eager to learn. Do most of my parents get involved, at least 80%. My second graders out of 21, all but 3 passed the CRCT.
If all of Angela’s students read at the 4th-5th grade level, why did three fail the 2nd grade CRCT?
bootney farnsworth
May 21st, 2010
10:43 pm
gee, race baiting again.
imagine.
Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2010
10:48 pm
yes imagine
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37271857/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001
http://chattahbox.com/us/2009/12/18/rand-paul-aide-quits-over-myspace-racism-afro-americans-have-kkk-radar/
Bob LeBlah
May 21st, 2010
10:49 pm
Proud black man is typical, failure is always someone elses fault. Now its money huh? Inner city Fulton county schools spend $14k per student. Cobb County spends just over $7k per student. Which students are more successful? HMMM
Keep up the excuse making.
Bob LeBlah
May 21st, 2010
10:57 pm
Proud Black Man’s dialogue with the public:
On a city street
Stranger (on cellphone): “That’s blackmail. Tell him…” (interrupted)
Proud Black Man: “What did you say? You racist!!”
Stranger (startled): “Huh? nothing? what are you talking about?”
Later on passing a playground
Stranger (child): “Hey be careful. The blacktop is hot.”
Proud Black Man: “So young and already a racist. Where’d you learn that from”
Stranger (child puzzled): “Just stares”
Proud Black man: (walks away, mutters) “So full of racism and can’t even speak”
Down the street further
Stranger (passing out KFC coupons): “Sir, could I interest you in a coupon”
Proud Black Man: “Why cuz I’m black?”
Stranger: “Umm no, its a KFC coupon”
Proud Black Man: “I know what it is. Do you think I don’t understand because I’m black?”
Stranger: “Well, no.. sorry!? I didn’t mean…” (interrupted)
Proud Black Man: “You white folks have some nerve.”
WideAwake
May 21st, 2010
11:28 pm
The problem with minorities (especially in the south) not getting a fair, good, and representative education is because they don’t VOTE.
They allow these fake politicians to take office and then they only represent their constituencies–(not the core group) thus they get all the benefits and we get the scraps.
Also, take government and these mundane rules out of the school system. I graduated from a public school, however, what I see are students in the urban area and parents who won’t fight or value a free education.
November 2010 is coming Isakson and Perdue must go.
OTOH
May 22nd, 2010
2:07 am
First, this article is about California public schools where the teachers’ union demanded and got seniority as the main determination for layoffs. Second, it is not layoffs/firings that causes the turnover at poor schools, but the benefits of seniority in the system, again a demand of the teachers’ union. More senior teachers get more choices about where they teach. It is not surprising that even non-union states, including GA, give benefits for seniority but when they do, do not expect there to be no trade offs for that policy.
ron
May 22nd, 2010
4:07 am
Would you rather have a hairdresser with five years professional experience or two decades professional experience? That’s not a fair question,to be honest it depends: for a stylecut that hasn’t yet reached mainstream I prefer the former and for reassurance I prefer the latter – and in most cases I get that.
I think of years of teaching experience in the same way.
My formula for a nice school to work at:
I prefer a 7:1 ratio (six experienced teachers of ten years + to one teacher of five years experience or less and some wiggleroom for one teacher in need of support due to a challenging student/life event/career crisis and/or in order to cope with major systemic changes within the education system that inevitably happen every three months or so).
Teacher burnout does happen, but it is more about the road travelled than the distance travelled. An unsupported teacher in a challenging school burns out quicker than a match.
The bottom 10% of our teachers are in the same situation as the bottom 10% of our students. How we deal with the former identifies our beliefs on how we should deal with the latter.
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
7:46 am
if you really want to worry about what’s the most hamful to poor, minority students, take a hard look their parents.
then take a hard look at the culture of disrespect and disdain for
for education so many of them live in.
as educators we can’t care more for their education than they do.
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
7:50 am
when “street cred”, looking like an inmate, and “keeping it real”
are more important than getting an education to a person or their
community, we can spend 1 million per student and still get nowhere.
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
8:05 am
the simple fact is the dollars spent on education don’t matter.
what matters is how badly a kid wants that education.
AT GPC where I work we get kids from the worst kinds of situtations
-mostly non white, BTW -
who have dreams and the desire to work for them.
desire to work for them…..
ah, there’s the key.
Bob LeBlah
May 22nd, 2010
8:06 am
Seniority is a ridiculous criteria. Merit should be the criteria for someone keeping their job. That’s why the government hires and keeps dog#$&*
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
9:01 am
There is nothing wrong with senority, provided its not used to
cover for ineffectual employees.
in the warped world of goverment, when contacts and neoptism
far outweight talent and effort, it often is the only protection
everyday hardworking employees have.
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
9:03 am
OTOH,
what benefits, EXACTLY, are we getting for senority?
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
9:06 am
I’m curious why education should be the only profession
where senority doesn’t matter.
can’t wait to hear this rationale.
Bob LeBlah
May 22nd, 2010
9:20 am
No bootney you’re contradicting yourself. You keep saying senority and hardworking. Well hardworking ties directly to performance (ie merit). The best people for the job should keep/get the job, period. I don’t know where you’ve worked, in the private sector the best people keep their job. In govt, seniority is a primary factor. So you’ll get rid of people who are good in favor of someone who has their butt in a seat for 15 years and hasn’t produced.
Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2010
9:28 am
Still funny how none of the tea (insert name that cannot be mentioned) commented on Rand Paul and Texas pushing white right influenced texts unto the nation. Like the Honorable Rev Wright said “God D@mn America!”
Cere
May 22nd, 2010
9:52 am
It’s true that consistent exposure to quality teachers makes for more successful students. So does parent involvement and family experiences (travel, museums, plays, and one on one parental guidance). It’s also true that we really could put more resources and effort into closing the performance imbalance. For one thing, veteran teachers seek jobs in high-performing schools – no one is purposely placing them there. Our local school, Lakeside, has many veteran teachers – many who are also minorities. They have chosen to work at Lakeside. Perhaps some cash incentives would entice veteran teachers of all races to move to a more challenging school with students who really need their experience. But in addition to sending veteran teachers, we need to give those teachers heavy classroom-based support.
At least in DeKalb, we bring in millions (over $30 million last year) in Title 1 funds. These funds used to be used for individual support teachers in reading, math, etc who worked in the schoolhouse – directly with the students. This kind of support at an early age makes an enormous difference in a student’s ability to keep up later. Sadly, in recent years, DeKalb school leaders (Dr. Lewis – an African-American) chose to use those millions to build up an administrative staff of hundreds of “program coordinators” – who do not work directly with students, but are paid more than teachers to basically monitor teachers and implement multi-million dollar “programs” like “America’s Choice”. This has been an enormous waste. We need to use our federal funds to hire qualified teachers and specialists to work directly with students in very small groups teaching them solid basic skills at an early age. If you are not a good reader by 1st or 2nd grade – you will never do well in high school biology. If you aren’t drilled on math facts at an early age – you won’t do well in Algebra. It seems simple – but our current leaders ignore that basic simplicity and have squandered millions in Title 1 funds that could have been used to impact students directly – at a very early age. Instead, we have several hundred highly paid administrators “monitoring” and “critiquing” our already over-worked classroom teachers. Bad idea.
Closing the poverty performance gap requires hard work. But it’s really not rocket science – it’s one on one human teaching. All it requires is rolling up our sleeves and sitting down tutoring at-risk children – starting while they are very young. Sorry to sound like a simpleton – but really – isn’t teaching just really about “time”? Maybe we just need to spend more time – with smaller groups for at-risk students…
love2teach
May 22nd, 2010
10:00 am
As an educator, I have taught in rural, inner-city, and suburban middle class schools. One common factor at each of these schools is that the students in the school get what the INVOLVED parents DEMAND. The larger number of involved parents …. ALL of the sudents in the school benefit and get a better education. The bottom line is that the school gives the parents/community what it wants. If they are truly our most valuable resource, stand up for our children.
Ole Guy
May 22nd, 2010
10:15 am
Lets not give students…poor, minority, or what-have-you…yet another reason, another rationale, for underachievement. Teacher layoffs, for good or for bad, are a fact of life…if they happen, they happen. As in the military, when a leader is lost, you, as a unit, mourn the loss, close ranks, and continue toward the common objective. These kids’ common objective is to graduate and become marketable productive citizens. The current economic environment, confusing as it surely is, should not serve merely as reason to fail. Will students suffer? Most-likely, they will…no more than my peers and I suffered when a favored teacher, in the Reserves, was mobilized during the Cuban Crisis. No more than the fear, confusion, and anxiety of that era led us to understand that within a very short period of graduation, most of us would probably be involved in the Vietnam War.
For cryin out loud, stop pattin these kids’ rear ends, allowing them one reason or another to justify failure. Let them face the harsh realities of the day, give them the opportunity to overcome, achieve, and move on to become responsible adults.
chris
May 22nd, 2010
10:41 am
I’m not sure why folks always wanna be mad at black folks. Lets be honest blacks folks were being hung from trees down here in some of the counties only 30 or 40 years ago. The civil rights was only 30 years ago. So, these people have only had full for some 3 decades. Why wouldn’t they stills struggle. Yes, I do understand that their is an issue with single parent familties, but that true for us whites. Give black people a break come on. Lastly, some you hateful fake chirstian waanabes who hate black folks (mostly redneck types). Get your self some sun tan lotion because you gonna spend eternity in hades, God made black folks in his image just like white. Stop pretend that christain, thays like saying Nazi’s are christain. Anti christ false prophet types. And i’m a white Irish american.
catlady
May 22nd, 2010
10:51 am
At my school (about 45 teachers), we have probably 10 with less than 5 years’ experience. They are learning. Some will make good teachers eventually; some will leave after continuing to suffer failure. We have 3-4 with 5-20 years’ experience who need to either be relieved of duty or given intensive intervention. They are past the break-in point, but want to coast on who they are, who their spouse is, or their brown-nosing. Another 20 in this experience level are good, solid teachers with a wealth of experience. Then there are the most experienced–those with closer to 20 to 38 (me) years’ experience. They have seen just about everything. They have a wealth of experience in just about every fad, and sometimes they call nonsense “nonsense.” Our principal and supt. would do well to call upon them for observations on effective teaching ideas. A couple of these teachers are mostly coasting–they see the light at the end of the tunnel. Others believe they have important skills to offer to the community, they love teaching students, and they continue to want to “fight the good fight”.
I think if we had a higher proportion of inexperienced teachers, no matter what their ages, our instruction would not be as effective. Teacher ed programs do not teach you much about actually teaching.
Northview (Ex)Teacher
May 22nd, 2010
10:56 am
At least the overpaid leeches in the central office do not have to suffer.
This is what CCSD is paying Jay Dillon $90K for:
“Once it reached capacity, the facilities manager said no more people could be allowed in,” Jay Dillon told the AJC Friday night.
In light of Maureen’s recent comments, I can see how someone who says such things is worth more than a fully qualified genetics or robotics teacher: such insight, such power of language, such amazing ability to get right to the heart of the matter. Indeed, CCSD is lucky to have someone of such calibre: not.
Fulton county is equally blessed to spend big bucks on one of Dillon’s proteges to provide spin for the evil Cindy Loe. Their PR person was on the radio this morning explaining why there is no more music program in elementary schools. She’s such a gem and worth every penny of her inflated salary: not
Meanwhile, teachers are being let go. These are people who made a difference, unlike PR types who are essentially corporate spokespeople.
Sharon Anderson, Fulton schools’ department chair for orchestra, lost her job as a result of the cuts. She was among 50 instrumental music teachers who were laid off.
“I was forced into retirement,” Anderson said. She had been with Fulton Schools for 33 years. Earlier this week 270 fourth- and fifth-graders played a goodbye tribute concert for her and the other band and orchestra directors.
I’m sure you all agree that we need PR much more than we need teachers. Superintendents and school boards certainly do. A school system is NOT a business, so why don’t we stop acting like it is?
For all you slow ones out there, let me repeat: a school system is NOT a business and should have no need for PR.
Cere
May 22nd, 2010
11:35 am
@Northview – DeKalb is even worse – our “PR” spokesman, Dale Davis earned $101,675.64 in 2009 – for saying “I have no comment” or “yes, there is a shower”… Then the board voted to hire an outside PR firm to enhance their image! (The only way they can enhance their image at the moment is to step aside.)
Tony
May 22nd, 2010
11:55 am
Why do the poor/minorities suffer most in teacher layoffs? The same reason they suffer most in the normal operations of school systems. Good teachers are attracted to good schools. There is a move afoot these days to make claims about EQUITY that will turn this idea upside down. Teachers and schools are now being villified for wanting better working conditions.
Teachers, like every other human, strive to achieve better working conditions by making choices about where to work based on their beliefs and values. Teachers value classrooms and school where learning is important. Good teachers, those who have good track records of student achievement and the knowledge/credentials, that are sought by the good schools will have opportunities to move to those schools by applying for job vacancies or through transfer mechanisms. Can you blame the good schools for wanting these teachers? Can you blame the good teachers for wanting to go to these schools?
The schools where learning is not valued are places where teachers do not want to be. This is no different in the business world. There have been many anti-seniority posts in the blog today, but all the negative comparisons to the world of business that have been made only focus on non-performing employees. What about the ones with excellent performance and more seniority? What happens to them? They become the leaders in the business and education is no different. Teachers who have excellent performance records are valued by schools. Based on the current Teacher Equity arguments, it seems there are people who adamently believe schools should force these teachers to go to the low performing schools. In other words, we should put these teachers in the schools where the students do not value learning and the communities do not support the teachers. These is absolutely ludicrous.
A few weeks ago, Houck’s essay was posted in this forum and he wrote on the premise that the current pay scale also negatively impacts the same populations mentioned in this blog topic. By adding these two ideas together, it is crystal clear that the push against good teachers and good schools is taking shape. Teachers need to be fully aware of these issues.
Finally, non-performing teachers need to be let go. It’s that simple. Yes, I agree that seniority as the sole factor for teacher cut backs is not right. Performance factors must be included. But seniority must be considered along with the performance indicators. In most cases, seniority translates into an asset that schools must keep in order for them to continue providing a quality product.
the prof
May 22nd, 2010
12:32 pm
PBM still isn’t black.
OTOH
May 22nd, 2010
12:51 pm
Bootney: As many have mentioned here, one of the benefits of seniority is being able to move to a preferred school.
truth
May 22nd, 2010
1:14 pm
You can have 30 years of experience or 1 year of experience thirty times over. Pay is the same, value is not.
Cere
May 22nd, 2010
2:47 pm
It’s true that consistent exposure to quality teachers makes for more successful students. So does parent involvement and family experiences (travel, museums, plays, and one on one parental guidance). It’s also true that we really could put more resources and effort into closing the performance imbalance. For one thing, veteran teachers seek jobs in high-performing schools – no one is purposely placing them there. Our local school, Lakeside, has many veteran teachers – many who are also minorities. They have chosen to work at Lakeside. Perhaps some cash incentives would entice veteran teachers of all races to move to a more challenging school with students
who really need their experience. But in addition to sending veteran teachers, we need to give those teachers heavy classroom-based support.
At least in DeKalb, we bring in millions (over $30 million last year) in Title 1 funds. These funds used to be used for individual support teachers in reading, math, etc who worked in the schoolhouse – directly with the students. This kind of support at an early age makes an enormous difference in a student’s ability to keep up later. Sadly, in recent years, DeKalb school leaders (Dr. Lewis – an African-American) chose to use those millions to build up an administrative staff of hundreds of “program coordinators” – who do not work directly with students, but are paid more than teachers to basically monitor teachers and implement multi-million dollar “programs” like “America’s Choice”. This has been an enormous waste. We need to use our federal funds to hire qualified teachers and specialists to work directly with students in very small groups teaching them solid basic skills at an early age. If you are not a good reader by 1st or 2nd grade – you will never do well in high school biology. If you aren’t drilled on math facts at an early age – you won’t do well in Algebra. It seems simple – but our current leaders ignore that basic simplicity and have squandered millions in Title 1 funds that could have been used to impact students directly – at a very early age. Instead, we have several hundred highly paid administrators “monitoring” and “critiquing” our already over-worked classroom teachers. Bad idea.
Closing the poverty performance gap requires hard work. But it’s really not rocket science – it’s one on one human teaching. All it requires is rolling up our sleeves and sitting down tutoring at-risk children – starting while they are very young. Sorry to sound like a simpleton – but really – isn’t teaching just really about “time”? Maybe we just need to spend more time – with smaller groups for at-risk students…
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
4:20 pm
OTOH,
and you point is….?
in any business, long term service earns perks.
its part of how you retain employees, especially in
poor paying professions.
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
4:22 pm
nice racebaiting Chris.
pointless, useless, and totally off topic,
but still a good try at racebaiting.
be sure and return when you have a real point.
Logic 88
May 22nd, 2010
4:23 pm
What a joke.
The students in the poor areas will not be without teachers.
Teachers from the “rich” areas will be transferred into the area.
In Georgia, the teachers are paid by the State; consequently, the funding for teachers salary will be the same statewide. Only teaching supplements vary. Since Atlanta pays the highest supplements…that means they should have the best teachers and the best test scores for students.
How is that working out Maureen?
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
4:24 pm
can someone please list any businesses which don’t
reward senority?
especially low paying, top heavy ones?
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
4:27 pm
folks who are all atwitter over senority need to refocus on
the real problem – nepotism and the ole boy network.
dumping someone with senority is relatively easy. in the BOR
we do it all the time. dumping someone who is sleeping with
the right person is next to impossible.
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
4:31 pm
Tony,
all “equity” will accomplish is to screw everybody.
excellence and achievement raise folks up.
“equity” pulls folks down.
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
4:32 pm
still waiting for someone to explain why education is the
only major industry which should not reward and promote
senority.
Pi$$onaDAWG
May 22nd, 2010
4:50 pm
We need a new Stadium for the Falcons to play in. If youor kids are “Smart” they will be Stupid and play a sport in the South. We don’t care-bout-no- stinkn-classwork. Can you Tote, Shoot, Dribble, Pass, Hit, or Catch the ROC? If you can’t then Wez Rz over Edugmacazing u. Dis iz da Soytz and only Sportz matter. Ifn Iz cantz win the Lottery maybz my kidz can Playz Proz Sportz and Make mez rich.
ugateacher
May 22nd, 2010
5:25 pm
You guys need to ignore Proud Black Man. He gets on here and just tries to stir up trouble. Ignore him and maybe he’ll find another place to play.
Courtney
May 22nd, 2010
5:43 pm
America spends way to much on the poor and stupid. Spend on the smart kids that will do something.
Wishing
May 22nd, 2010
5:52 pm
I can’t hear another thing about the poor minority students!!!!! If your a white male student nowadays in Georgia public schools you are the new minority!!! Please already. Statisics have shown 48% white now. 52 other. Do the math.
catlady
May 22nd, 2010
6:05 pm
Perhaps the AJC could look at CRCT pass/fail rates of students in classes taught by inexperienced teachers (less than 5 years) vs those taught by highly experienced teachers (more than 20 years) by school. Of course, that does not account for the fact that in some schools, students are deliberately assigned to the “old hands” if they are already showing signs of problems (behavior, academic). And, perhaps, in some schools the new teachers get this non-random assignment.
BTW, has the AJC been able to match last year’s CRCT scores and this year’s CRCT scores for say, third to 4th graders from the schools accused of cheating? With the GTID student numbers, this should be pretty easy!
A CONSERVATIVE
May 22nd, 2010
6:26 pm
WORLD ENDs Sunday..May 23…2010…Atlanta-Urnal Constipation HEADLINE:::MINORITIES..Women & Children Suffer the Most Loses
A CONSERVATIVE
May 22nd, 2010
6:28 pm
RUSH LIMBAUGH ALWAYS SAYS…..LIBERALs R so…so….so predictable..
A CONSERVATIVE
May 22nd, 2010
6:31 pm
HAVE BEEN READING THE AJC since 1960s…..AJC is still preaching the same sad….sad…sad sermons…minority rights….
Tony
May 22nd, 2010
6:47 pm
bootney – exactly my point
Paulo977
May 22nd, 2010
6:54 pm
Bill
re: “riding the coat tails of the govenment” Are you sure you have done real research on this one? There are few people I know who don’t want a fair job with decent benefits …or are you of the view that ‘all men are bad’? The whole da** system around the poorer schools is so ‘dysfunctional’ with teachers blaming kids parents and their background for their lack of motivation and indiscipline etc that it is no wonder that they don’t perform and drop-out ..Erica answered you well and told it like it is!!!
Fulton Co. Elementary Teacher
May 22nd, 2010
7:23 pm
Pay me extra to stay in a low achieving school that has little parental support and is located in a dangerous part of town and I would stay. Pay me the same salary I can make at my nice, neighborhood school and forget it…
DCB
May 22nd, 2010
8:28 pm
The irony of all this is that if seniority is used as the cut-line guide (as the teachers’ unions would demand) then the issue of who would get hurt the worst is moot. Why so? Because the correlation between teacher seniority and good teaching is zilch …. in fact there are many who would say the older (and supposedly more experienced therefor more effective) teachers should be the first to go. I don’t think the generality is fair or true. But the fact that there is a definite burn-out and energy level decline factor that adversely impacts teacher-student effectives. And it is my experience as head of non-public K-12 college preparatory schools for some 30 years that is speaking here – not a parent or student based on personal experience.
chris
May 22nd, 2010
8:31 pm
Bootney or whatever. You don’t believe the economic status and history behind the folks who attended inner city schools is an issue. Why would I race bait or whatever. I’m a white guy. I ain’t no liberal either. History plays part how people got to where they are. It has an impact like or not. Any ways you sound like one of them hate on teacher types. People like you are exactly why this stsate has one most uneducated people in this country. For what I read your just a very clueless person in general. Talk about something you know about.
Learning all the wrong stuff
May 22nd, 2010
9:31 pm
Parents are the primary teachers, and that is what is wrong with most of our children.
bootney farnsworth
May 22nd, 2010
10:00 pm
@ Chris
“Why would I race bait or whatever”
probably because you’re a troll.
Free Market Educator
May 23rd, 2010
12:14 am
Here’s what Dear Leader had to say to the graduating West Point Cadets:
“The international order we seek is one that can resolve the challenges of our times,” he said in prepared remarks. “Countering violent extremism and insurgency; stopping the spread of nuclear weapons and securing nuclear materials; combating a changing climate and sustaining global growth; helping countries feed themselves and care for their sick; preventing conflict and healing its wounds.”
So now America’s troops are fighting for the “international order”, aka the New World Order. The usual phantom nukes are on the list as are the mythical “extremists” and “insurgents.” New additions to enemyhood are “climate change” and “global growth.” I guess wiping out our neighbors will help sustain (prevent) global population growth, and firing off a few Star Wars weapons into the ionosphere would definitely show our climate who’s boss. It wouldn’t dare think of changing. Hats off to our New World Order cadets and their Commander in Chief. By the way, does anyone know how much this will set back the American taxpayer? Teachers, your sacrifice IS NOT IN VAIN.
chris
May 23rd, 2010
12:25 am
If you any kinda teacher it must be in white bred land. Where wimps like yuo don’t get hurt.
chris
May 23rd, 2010
12:27 am
Sorry, Previous post was for bootny or booontey or whatever.
We All Need Help
May 23rd, 2010
12:49 am
PLEASE STOP bickering about race and poor and this and that. People, let’s focus….PLEASE. Let’s rally up qualified candidates for these sad BOE reps, this govenor, and these pitiful superintendents. We need to post viable candidates so that we can research and pass the information along before fall elections so that we can pass the word. PLEASE LET’S FOCUS ON THE REAL THINGS AND STOP GOING ON ABOUT NOTHING. Thanks and God bless us all.
chris
May 23rd, 2010
6:20 am
Your right. The first step in improving most inner schools is to make sure it is a safe place for kids to even go to school, then you can work on improving instruction and so forth. Sorry, I not playing the race card, I’m actually a white guy and I’m not throwing a pity party for folks. My point is that people end up where they is not completely by accident. History plays a role and we shouldn’t just sugarcoat that all the time. But on the othr hand, like anything folks need to want to make chamge to improe thier lives, you can’t force it on them.
chris
May 23rd, 2010
6:27 am
The other issue beyond just the quality of the teaching staff and the constant turn over is the level of corruption that goes on these schools. I hate to say this but one of best city schools systems believe it or not is New York City. They have made the schools smaller and based on student needs. But their budget restraints may change that too.
Hmmmm
May 23rd, 2010
8:17 am
Chris, I am intrigued by your comments that NYC schools are among the best in the nation. They may be doing a good job with their budget, but from what I and other teachers I have spoken to at schools around here have seen come out of their system, their students are definitely behind our students.
Teacher in Cobb
May 23rd, 2010
9:02 am
Proud B Man: Unfortunately, (well actually I feel blessed) I have been teaching minority students for 20 years. Yes, I have borne witness to much of what you consider stereotyping. As a woman, I have taken risks getting in the middle of fights and taken the brunt of some horrible profanity that has disrupted my classroom. On the other hand, I have watched some children grow out of this behavior…albeit just some because we don’t have the time nor the resources nor the support from administration to deal with these behavioral issues. There have been some semesters (it is always the luck of the draw what our “clients” are like) when because of rude and disruptive kids I have been unable to teach. Some will say well where is your classroom management? Trust me, if I can’t get a kid out of the class via the administration, I can’t! That is the major frustration. Some times my only option is to just kick them out so I can teach, but then that just fosters a school environment of kids wandering all over the halls and that is what happened this year. There needs to be a MAJOR overhaul in support for teachers in giving major consequences to those that are repeatedly disrupting classes. What right do these kids have to sit and ruin it for the others? Perhaps the parents of these children could come and sit in class with their children so that I may teach those that do want to learn.
chris
May 23rd, 2010
9:35 am
HMMMMM. I guess I was thinking in terms of how it is safe considering NYC is an international city and place which at one point had more severe violence. I think also simply in a sense of making the schools smaller learning environments, which Altanta is doiing also. In terms of quality of graduates compared to Atlanta,I have no knowledge to speak on that. But hmmmm I hear ya.
Left of Center
May 23rd, 2010
9:54 am
remove the filter, Maureen
H.S teacher
May 23rd, 2010
1:32 pm
TONY hit it on the nail above. Good employees will go to the better working conditions. That is what I did. I don’t want a bunch of kids who all don’t want to learn white or black.
H.S teacher
May 23rd, 2010
1:33 pm
should be hit the nail
BlackGirl
May 23rd, 2010
7:43 pm
@Bob LeBlah, for the record, there is no such thing as a Fulton County inner city school; Fulton county schools are in the suburbs. Atlanta City Schools are inner city. Black doesn’t equal inner city.
PBM, unfortunately many of our minority students live up to the images we see portrayed in the media. However, there are just as many that aren’t. I rarely hear students accuse their peers that speak standard English that they’re trying to act white. Instead I witness students wanting to behave like their idols in videos and movies. What’s interesting is the notion by some that white kids don’t have these same issues. There are many white kids coming from single parent homes. They’re just as uninterested in education as SOME black students. Socio-economics plays a larger role than race. But the media will continue to highlight the negative behaviors of minority students and downplay the actions of white kids. We as a nation have a problem. Let’s publicize that fact and disregard skin color.
n8whit
May 23rd, 2010
10:09 pm
In America, the haves and have nots are really the dids and did nots. Did you party and have children at a young age instead of go to college? Did you frequent strip clubs instead of church? Did you get married and then have children or did you think you can do it all on your own?
Which students suffer most from teacher layoffs? Anyone surprised it’s – free technology from freedom of mind
June 16th, 2010
7:35 am
[...] Which students suffer most from teacher layoffs? Anyone surprised it’s Leave a comment » Which students suffer most from teacher layoffs? Anyone surprised it’s poor … Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) Who would prefer to teach at a school where students and parents largely don’t seem to care about their education, it is dangerous, etc when they could … http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2010/05/21/which-students-suffer-most-from-teacher-layoffs/?c... [...]