Latest study: Reducing class size doesn’t benefit student achievement

I can see why class size alone will not make much difference. If teachers are keep doing the same things with a fewer students, I’m not sure what benefits will actually follow. Teaching must adapt to smaller class sizes in order to achieve the positive results.

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OK, So is there a study that talks about the detriment caused by INCREASED class size? I can’t believe anyone can learn this new math curriculum with 40 kids in a class (soon to be in Cobb County students’ futures).

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Rural systems at the high school level.

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I am 56 years old. When I was growing up and attending a public school in a relatively small city in south Alabama, we had 30 or more students in our elementary classes every year. I finished high school in Georgia with as many as 40 students in a class. I went on to graduate with honors from a highly respected postgraduate program in a major university. My wife has taught first grade classes ranging from 14 to 30 students. She says the success of her class varieas but not depernding on the size of the class. Large class sizes have absolutely no impact on the success of students.

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and this study by a research fellow at Harvard University’s Program on Education Policy and Governance was in no way reflective of a current Harvard Grad’s public education policy out of the White House.
Really? They studied the difference a 3 student reduction makes in a classroom. Let’s use a little reality here. Cobb will go from 28-30 students in core classes to 35-37 in the same classes next yr. Core classes include everyone from the “I want to learn” student to the “where can I get my next fix” student. Statistically, a class is much more likely to include several more of the “I don’t cares” than this yrs class. 5-7 more students in a classroom built for 25 that already holds 30 is going to be an issue. In our teens ‘look at me’ world, all it will take is one class clown to set things off. Especially when our teachers cannot adequately remove the disruptive.
Yet another narrowly focused and wasted study.

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I would not say that class size has NO impact on achievement, but we should think about what smaller classes afford to teachers and students. What exactly do teachers think smaller classes will offer to better students’ learning? I think many of the items suggested will be “management” matters – less papers to grade, more attention to students, etc. But, if teachers are doing the same thing no matter what class sizes are, then, they are really practicing “one size fit all” teaching method. And, I think many people have complain about “one size fit all” in many different policies. So, what’s different about teaching approach? If teachers don’t adjust their teaching approach, then class size alone will not matter much.

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There are so many X-factors left out of this study that I won’t even comment on it. Ridiculous.

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Maureen,
I can tell you that with THAT many kids in a room, teachers don’t have time for meaningful feedback on assessments. It becomes a matter of writing assessments for ease of grading (or ability to grade them and turn them around quickly). And right there, we lose some important way to reach students. Speaking for myself only, if I were in that situation, I’d end up with less partial credit, less time to devote per paper, and more “group” reviews where the entire class reviews the “problem problems,” as opposed to targeted groups for the kids who need specific material. It becomes more resource/time management than real and effective differentiated teaching.

Studies like this are always interesting to me precisely because they leave out so much information, as everyone has already pointed out. ANYONE who’s been in a classroom knows the entire dynamic changes with fewer kids. Even today when I have 20 kids instead of 26, I am able to spend more time on individual questions and more time addressing specific needs. Is my evidence anecdotal? Sure. But we all know the standardized tests are a bunch of hogwash anyway. I also have a class of 14, and it wouldn’t matter if I stood on my head and spit gold; that particular group is more difficult to reach than any other group of kids I’ve ever had. Thirty in that room would require no more police presence than I already call in with 14.

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Enter your comments here

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Let’s be very clear on this:
Educational research has consistently shown that reduced class sizes work well for the following:
(1) young children (grade 3 and below)
(2) children from low-income communities

Other than that, the research is mixed. And at the high-school level, findings consistently show that class sizes up to 35 can achieve the same results as class sizes lower than that.

Of course, reducing a class size does not ensure high-quality instruction. And high-quality instruction is the KEY. Having fewer students makes good instruction a whole lot easier–I believe any teacher would agree.

Studies of class-size often try to control for instructional methods in order to ensure that the comparison actually hones in on class-size as the dependent variable. So, you can imagine, a researcher could study a small class with low-quality instruction and a large class with low-quality instruction and deem class-size to be a non-issue. Rarely do studies investigate what kind of teacher can maintain high quality instruction (including assessment and meaningful feedback) with 35-40+ students. And I have yet to see a study on class-size account for the changing times in which teachers are teaching today–there’s a greater need for technological integration, formative feedback, and caring than ever before.

I worry that a politician would take this study and run. They’re already stripping our schools of money–this would give one more reason to strip more. Please beware of studies like this that try to answer an age-old question–one that is the wrong question. We should be asking how to ensure high-quality instruction for all students.

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I still think classes like grammar, reading, remedial math, could be effectively taught not only in a larger class but to a mixed level (10th through 12th graders). My classes are mixed 9 through 12th grades and I have few if any discipline problems. Granted it isn’t a core class but my expectations are high and the mixed ages/mixed abilities seem to actually enhance the learning. Mind you, I normally have up to 4 or 5 different courses of study going on at the same time: intro to drafting, residential design, technical drawing, solid modeling… not to mention teaching students the various AutoCAD programs. It would be a blessing to have single subject classes but I think I would still prefer the mixed ages/mixed abilities. We all learn from each other every day.

If it works in CTAE, I’m sure there are core classes that could make it work.

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As some others have mentioned, what about meaningful grades? How am I supposed to cope with grading twenty+ more essays? How will that affect my instruction, planning, and time? (I won’t even mention my home life because no one seems concerned with how much of our own time we spend working for the school.)

I write as much as I can on each and every essay. It takes me between five and ten minutes per essay, depending on the quality. Let’s do some simple multiplication here:

(I’ll be conservative in my estimates)

130 students
5 minutes per essay
= nearly eleven hours of grading time (just for that one assignment)

compared to . . .

155 students (an increase of five per class)
5 minutes per essay
= nearly thirteen hours of grading time (an increase of two hours, or TWO planning periods/two hours with family/two hours of instructional work)

That was being CONSERVATIVE. It often takes me far longer to grade essays in lower level classes. I would guesstimate that the actual time would be closer to fifteen hours–FOR ONE ASSIGNMENT. When that increase in time is extrapolated across all assignments for all classes, we’re looking at a monumental increase in time.

And that’s not supposed to affect instruction? That’s not going to impact student achievement?

Unlikely.

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If class sizes are not an issue, why do the best private schools in the area (Pace, Westminster, Lovett for example) cap their classes at 15?

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[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Maureen Downey. Maureen Downey said: Latest study: Reducing class size doesn’t benefit student achievement http://bit.ly/bI56Ba [...]

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I think back to college… I attended a small college with the average class size around 25. My sister attended a sprawling state university and had 250+ students in her freshman classes.

Who do you think got more personalized attention/help, was actually engaged in the class, and had reason to be well-prepared for every class? Hint: it had a lot to do with class size. Even she says I got a better college education than she did.

Why wouldn’t the same apply to elementary, middle and high schools? It’s elementary, my dear!

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Maureen, It is real simple. You can have 35 or 40 in a room, if there is discipline and order. But, if you continue to have spineless, good-for-nothing, lazy, and incompetent administrators who do not support the teachers in disciplinary matters, then this is THE problem in public education. If the students perceive (which they do) that there are NO consequences to defiant and disruptive conduct, then they will continue to run roughshod over teachers with impunity. Chaos will prevail.

It’s the discipline, Maureen.

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As an educator, I must say this “study” is extremely vague. Too many factors and subgroups missing.

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I am not an expert on this topic but everything I’ve read on it says that it makes a huge difference in 1st through 3rd grade but does not make much of a difference after those years. However, when it’s implemented in the 1st through 3rd grade it pays large dividends all the way through middle school.

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This was written by a Walton High School teacher. This letter is making it’s rounds throughout Cobb County’s finest teachers. Name deleted for protection.

May 27, 2010

An Open Letter to the Cobb County School Board

Dear Sirs and Madams:

I am unable to attend this meeting in person tonight because once again you have deployed every tactic you can in order to ensure that teachers will not have a say in what happens to them over the course of the next school year. You have scheduled this meeting after the end of the school year at a time when many teachers, myself included, have already had to leave for their summer employment, jobs that we must take because of the paltry wages we are paid. Additionally, you have deliberately fired large numbers of teachers, and then offered contracts to those who remain after announcing a new schedule that shortens the school year by five days. It was quite obviously your hope that when these factors converged together teachers who were offered contracts would be relieved to have a job and happy that only a small portion of their pay had been cut. You assumed the teachers would, therefore, quickly sign their contracts. You then used the fears of the teachers as a weapon against them because as soon as most of them had signed their contracts, you announced that you were also considering a percentage decrease to teacher pay. Obviously you already knew this was going to happen, but you chose to wait to tell the teachers so as to entrap them in contracts with which they might not be happy or eager to sign. This sort of underhanded, double-dealing has become par for the course. We should have expected it, but we, the teachers, still foolishly expect some kind of human decency from our employers. I suppose that by now we should know better. You began treating us badly as soon as money became an issue for the county and your behavior has only worsened over time.

I strenuously object to any further pay cuts for teachers. We are already being asked to deal with huge pay cuts, staff cuts, furlough days, and larger class sizes. You simply cannot balance the budget on the backs of the teachers without asking others to make sacrifices, especially when those sacrifices are so small. It would be no real sacrifice to ask administrators to give up the extra pay they receive for sick days which they do not take. It would also be no great sacrifice to up the millage rate for Cobb County to twenty. In fact, board members, themselves, have stated that such an increase would result in increased taxes of about $65 per household. I am certain that most people would be happy to pay $65 to ensure that their children received a quality education and that they would not have to pay even more money later on in increased crime rates and reduced property values. I understand that you believe this would be a politically suicidal move, but it is time for some of our elected officials to fall on their swords. Do not worry. It should not be terribly painful. The swords have already been sharpened by plunging them through the backs of your teachers.

I know that you believe that teachers are prepared to take pay cuts and to accept other difficult circumstances because they love children and want to do what is right by them. It is certainly true that we love children and enjoy our jobs helping children to achieve their full potential. I certainly love my job. But you make a serious error when you treat teaching as if it were a calling equivalent to entering a monastery. One should not have to take a vow of poverty in order to become a teacher, yet you seem to assume that we have already done so. This assumption will prove to be a serious error on your part. In the long run, as you cut salaries and make the conditions of teaching increasingly miserable, you will only guarantee that the least qualified people will become teachers. You are sinking education into a morass from which it will be difficult to extract the schools. Enough is enough. To further cut teacher salaries without asking for concomitant sacrifices from administrators, board members, the superintendent, and the community members is absolutely unconscionable. I can only hope that if you stupidly go ahead with the plan to make teachers the sole group paying for Cobb County’s budget woes that at least it will trouble your sleep at night.

Sincerely,

xxxx

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@ Duh! – You’re an idiot. Like D2 said, it becomes a discipline issue, not to mention, a safety hazard. I teach science and having 40 kids doing a lab is an accident waiting to happen.

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As a retired headmaster of over 30 years at college-preparatory non public schools, our data-driven education industry never ceases to amaze me. Class size in itself being a major reason for “improved results” is a farce. And that’s experience talking, not statistics. Trying to compare the effectiveness of size on an advanced placement history class with that of a second grade or special ed class is ridiculous. Yet that is what was and often continues to be done. Expecting special ed students to produce grade level results on our standardized testing programs that is routine procedure now in our data driven world doesn’t make sense – I mean other than those with physical and emotional issues, why are the greater majority of them placed in special ed in the first place? They learn differently. And results should be measured differently. Over my thirty years in the PK-12 grade business any time something not already tried and true (and, of course, supported by data) was suggested, our colleges of education hierarchy and “experts” in the field fought tirelessly in opposition to it – insisted on the maintaining of the status quo. Technology, class size, implementing a “learning style” approach are but good examples. Oh yes, they did come up with something. Debacles produced by these same experts such as “A Nation at Risk” promising a solution if there were just more $$$$ thrown at the problem which we all know has been a dismal failure. And most recently the “No Child Left Behind” mandates. The real problem? In my opinion changes from a worker to entitlement society, a government bent on giving benefits to all regardless of work ethic and a citizenry eager to accept them, and parents expecting others to raise their children. Those areas should be the first targets of education reform. But back to the question – to those who claim class size does not impact results – how about being upfront and admitting you’re talking economics here, not educational philosophy. Sure class size makes a difference. But not in the sense its being presented. If the establishment allows a teacher to teach and apply the different principles that address individual needs, the larger the classes the more difficult it becomes – regardless of whether its AP History or an elementary self-contained class. And if a teacher actually understands and is eager to accept the fact that new approaches, not lecture alone in high school classes might require more effort and work. And hey people, it might work in industry but while standardized testing has its place, using tests alone as the only yard stick for success is the first baby to throw out with the bathwater.

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A ridiculous study. Did the class size reduce from 100 to 97? From 10 to 7? From 50 to 47? This article and study as reported is worthless.

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Catlady says:
“I can say for a fact it is a nightmare when kids have been promoted without the skills they need for success at the next level, without even taking into account the needs of sped (including BD), and ESOL kids.”

And SDM says:
“An underlying assumption for smaller class size is that the best instruction is one-on-one, individualized instruction. When teachers approach teaching from that perspective, instead of seeking the best group/mass instruction, then they won’t be as effective as they can be.”

Both have touched on what I believe to be one of the toughest challenges facing teachers today. Teaching today is carried out pretty much just like it was 100 years ago…put a teacher in a room full of students and teach them all the same thing at the same time. And for the longest time, this approach seems to have worked. Unfortunately, times have changed. The homogenous classroom of yesteryear has vanished. As Catlady pointed out, and as every teacher knows, students are routinely “socially” promoted, without having acquired the necessary skills they will need to be successful at the next level.

I believe the more one-on-one instruction that can be provided, the better, especially with the neediest students. Because students’ abilities vary so greatly, perhaps group/mass instruction is not the best way to teach.

There may be a few super teachers out there that can reach ALL of their students, but my experience is that “mass teaching” bores the advanced students, and works OK with the average students, and allows the neediest students to slip through the cracks (at least until they turn 16 and drop out). It caters to the middle of the road, and gives lip service to the higher and lower level learners. And everybody loses. And when you toss the special needs students and the chronically disruptive students into the mix, it becomes even more difficult, if not impossible, to reach all of the students .

Maybe it’s time for the “group model” to be questioned. The classroom today is not the classroom of our parents. Mass instruction made sense when parents valued education, the students came to school respectful and ready to learn, discipline problems were dealt with appropriately, and students were not routinely “advanced” for social reasons. And I’m not even going to get into the challenge that special needs students bring to the classroom. The classroom has totally changed from what it was 100 years ago, but the teaching model (large group instruction) hasn’t changed with it.

My daughter graduated from a private boarding school in which 40-50 students sat at cubicles in a large room, and proceeded with their lessons at their own pace, with a teacher present to provide one-on-one assistance as needed. She’s attending college now, and doing quite well.

So with the challenges of today’s modern classroom, might this individualized approach have some merit? Or perhaps we can just do away with the compulsory nature of education, provide every student who wants one with a laptop, an internet connection, and a local facility (library or school bldg) to provide additional assistance as needed.

I’m just saying…there has got to be a better way.

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but where does the increase end? A couple more one year, then a couple more within the following five years…what is the quantitative cap on class size?

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I would agree the study as projected in this article does seem to be missing some elements that could help subsantciate its findings.

Personally, I have spent some time observing classrooms at the high school level and deduced that class size at a certain point does have an effect on the effectiveness of a teacher in the classroom.

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It depends on which 3 extra students we are talking about!

At least in the elementary grades, each student added above, say, 22 is an exponential addition! (Like what I discovered when I had my children: one plus one is MORe than 2 and 2 plus one is a LOT MORE THAN 3 and more than 3x 1!

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I must use my own child as an example here. She is graduating from High School this Saturday and will attend a small, liberal arts college in the Fall.
If she was herded into a classroom with a large number of students, the instructor would get very little out of her. her quiet, somewhat shy outlook is not condusive to success in a lecture hall type arena..But in a small setting, she prospers and has excellent grades.
The point here is each child reacts differently to these classroom changes.
MY problem is: Teachers today seemingly have little back up on students who disrupt the class, causing interested students time and knowledge. These behavioral problems and lack of interest certainly develop from a troubled home situation, or simply apathy on account of the parent(s).
I believe the public school system is on the brink of total collapse…….

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lies, damn lies, and statistics…

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To JP and Dr. Trotter,

Administration is critical, I completely agree! One of the very best schools with the best administration is in Douglas County, Chapel Hill High School. They are fair but firm and take no nonsense. They support their teachers and do the best they can to effectively manage class sizes in these changing times. They believe that if a student is preventing a teacher from teaching then they must handle it, even though they are extremely busy themselves. All school administrators should come visit our school and see how it works. We even have the best ISS teachers. ISS is for real here. A team is so critical to class size increases in the schools next year.

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I think that the Harvard study found exactly what any one of us would have predicted. Reducing class size by 3 across the board is a colossal waste of money. If Florida had targeted specific schools for larger reductions, based on need, I am sure the money would have been better spent.

I echo others when I say that across the board policies about class size are silly. Why not look at the issue on multiple levels- first at the district level, then at each school, finally each classroom. Administrators and teachers could easily go through their school and student roster and tell you which classrooms could handle more students and which really need less. But I am not sure how one would study this- except maybe look at schools that were given this power vs. ones that were mandated to certain class sizes.

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The matter with education is that there are so many different theories as to how students achieve. Everybody and his brother has a thought and a theory on education. Yet, nothing has worked for the mass of public school students.

Maybe the problem is with the top administrators who want to practice every new idea on our children. When my son was in elementary school, the new “thing” was whole language. I ended up with a student who could not spell. The teachers told me that spelling would come later and that he did not need to memorize the spelling words. Well, he is now a slave to the dictionary.

I grew up with more than 30 students in my classes and we had some of the highest achieving students in my Tennessee school. Give us a break educators! Just adopt one theory, get it right and stick with it. Stop wasting my considerable tax money!!

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studies have shown that most studies don’t show sh#@!

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William

re:”Shouldn’t I be more concerned with developng a student’s critical thinking?” Great question …this is what real education should be and of course large classes just prevent teachers being able to devote the time necessary for using strategies to develop this in students . Private schools are well aware of this and limit class sizes . The irony is that private schools usually house the more affluent who eventually go on to positions of influece in the society and of course go on to support the status quo while the those in public education simply accept their low positions because they never have been taught to think critically!!

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@ER: Studies of class-size often try to control for instructional methods in order to ensure that the comparison actually hones in on class-size as the dependent variable”

If the law requires ALL classes to be reduced, there is no control group.

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I also teach 1st grade and I see a huge difference from when I was teaching with a class size reduction grant (12-13 kids) to the 18, (which is still small) that I teach now. Your wife probably has no behavior issues in her class of 30. I mean the type of 6 year olds that yell at you, curse you out, run out of the room and you spend 10 minutes chasing them around outside the school building. (That happened several times this year, even just yesterday) She also may not have had the pleasure of working with severely mentally delayed students in her class and I want you to reflect on whether or not these things went on in YOUR elementary class. I don’t care what any study says, I do this for a living, and there is so much more that I am able to do with a smaller class vs. a larger class. My 12 students got truly INDIVIDUALIZED instruction regularly. That is impossible to do more than once or twice a week in a larger class setting.

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There is a huge difference between designing a study on the impact of differing class sizes, and studying the impact of a law the effects class sizes in FL. The variables in FL that are not controlled or even tracked make the research quetionable for application in other scenarios. This is just more fodder.

The points made by ‘Educational Researcher’ are consistent with the research I have read covering class size, and the quality of instruction is obviously key to any such study, and commonly a flaw.

As for why private schools advertise their small class sizes. This is called advertising. It doesn’t require a formal study about the claim’s effectiveness other than its appeal to parents, especially those that care and that have the money.

The other point this conversation brings to mind is one of my mother’s. She is an retired teacher, and she says both she and my father wanted things to be better for my generation, so they believed strongly in the public education system. By their definition, a strong middle class was an educated middle class, and the public education system was the backbone of amderica. This was the WWII generation’s thinking. The current thinking is more along, “I got mine and I am tired of paying for yours. No one is entitled to a free education.” Then they add, “And don’t touch my social security.” So, the question I ask is, Who will be paying your social security in the future if our kids aren’t educated?”

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@ Matt Chingos: Forgive me if this sounds like an attack, but I have questions that need to be answered. I intend to read your entire study at my leisure (planning is almost over).

I notice your study was done in the department of government. Does that mean you are not an education major? What classroom experience do you have?

I can tell you as an aspiring doctor I would never dream of doing such impactful research unless I truly had experience in this area.

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Although class size matters, I think that class composition is most important. Until our educators are empowered to remove problem students, the size of the class won’t make a difference. So long as our teachers are required to spend time every day disciplining and trying to control the same few unruly children the rest of the students are having their educational opportunity stolen from them. This year my son is in a class with one particular troublemaker and the teacher has even said that he cannot remove the kid because he has already been moved twice from other classes to this one (I suspect because they hoped a male teacher would be able to control the little imp). The entire class breathes a sigh of relief when the imp asks for a pass to use the washroom. These are sixth graders and they realize that their own learning is being impacted and they just wish the imp would stay in the washroom for the entire class period. My child is not an angel, nor are the others, but they know they are being hurt and the school can’t do a thing about it.

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Why is it that if someone associated with Harvard does something, anything; we are supposed to bow in reverence. Let’s seeour current president spent some time at Harvard and Lord knows he’s the smartest thing since Oppenheimer or Heisenberg. I teach science in high school and I don’t need some pinhead from an Ivy League school to tell me that it makes no statistical difference in what is learned by students in a classroom. I can give more personal attention with 20 or 21 than I can with 30 or more and my students learn and retain more of what they need to know to perform on the myriad of high stakes multipple choice tests that they are required to take. How much tax payer money was wasted on this?

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As long as the discipline is under control, except for the added work for the teachers with grading papers, it should not make that much of a difference. My daughter was in a small (16) 1st grade class that unfortunately had a couple of discipline problems. It did impact the learning of the other students. One or two bad apples can really change the dynamics of a classroom.
I attended school in the 70’s. There was the threat of being paddled by the principal. I don’t remember any real discipline problems. Not that I’m advocating going back to corporal punishment, but I think that is why the discipline wasn’t an issue. Either get paddled at school or get it at home.

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If class sizes are increased there will be less time for kids at the bottom and top. We already short change the smarter kids with the dumbing down of classes by pushing “inclusion” to help the bottom students. The teacher spends an inordinate amount of time helping the bottom group and less time helping the smarter students excel to greater levels. But as class sizes are increased, there will also be less time for those at the bottom and those kids will suffer academically. Both groups lose.

You could put 60 kids in a class and the smart, engaged ones will find a way to get through it. So what. That doesn’t prove large class sizes are ok. The stress levels for students crammed into an inadequate space, and teachers dealing with a even larger work load for “less money” will be through the roof.

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How about a little help. It would be mostly symbolic, but there are a few little things that both groups could do to help teachers. Why do we have to pay for lunches, car tags, etc. With all the cut-backs and furloughs somethings could be thrown our way.

And where is all this money we’re GIVING BACK going in the future. Why couldn’t extra monies for retirement or increased raises in the future be offered to get us though this current situation. Most teachers would be far more receptive to “helping out” now for a promise of being taken care of in the future.

No, we’re just demoted.

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Well, Maureen, the cancer didn’t miss sleep because mama is running a honky tonk, or because ‘Uncle Joe’ is bothering her, or because she is hungry or dirty. I think that research is very different.

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@ Pluto: Exactly the point I was trying to make.

@ Matt Chingos: Please know I do not mean to attack, just understand. Teaching has truly taught me my limitations and my strengths. My research is action research, quite different from yours. I am studying an Autism treatment, which I have extensive experience in. As I previously stated, I would not deem it appropriate to do research having only done a literature review.

In perspective, I also understand your research may very well be a stepping stone for further studies.

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Studies are great, especially the ones where you already know what you want the outcome to be. First, you have to assume that test scores are the end all measure of student achievement. Second, you are comparing the test scores of 27 students one year to a different 30 students another year. Not too many variables there.

And please, no more “when I was growing up 30 years ago” stories. Life is a little different now from back then. O.k., one more story…when i was in elementary school 35 years ago, my principle had a huge paddle hanging on his wall. I can’t remember if it was just 1 or maybe 10 kids he killed with that thing (so the legend went). With those conditions, it didn’t matter how many students in the classroom. You behaved or got sent to the principles office to see him and his paddle. Then you got it when you got home as well. Today, it is a treat to got sent to the principles office. And when you get home, it is always the teachers or someone elses fault.

Sorry, a little off topic. I will get off of my soap box now.

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Here is an interesting perspective from Diane Ravitch, who actually knows what she is talking about.

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I would take a class of 60 5th graders over a class of 10 kindergarten kids any day.

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Let me just say that as a teacher of 1st grade it makes a huge difference when you add kids to the classroom. I had 16 kids last year and felt like I was able to give them each a lot more attention and could do a lot more. This year I have 22. Its hard to move around the room and have one on one time like you want. Maybe for the older kids this wouldn’t make a difference but I can say that at a young age the fewer the kids the better.

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Can’t comment on higher grades, but from my observations as a volunteer in K-2 classes the past three years, for K-2 grades, class size is a very important factor.

Second comment is that I think a number of posters have it exactly right, discipline (or the lack thereof) is the key variable in moving to bigger class sizes. I am beginning to think we should move children with constant disciplinary problems into a separate school, just to keep them from disrupting the students who were raised by their parents to behave in school. Undisciplined children (or, to put it another way, crummy parents) are the biggest problem in public education today, and sop up a grossly disproportionate share of public education resources.

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My daughter who graduated from UGA with an undergrad in biology did some fairly high level genetics research under a Post Doctoral student in a UGA lab for 2 years. Although she was a good researcher, she decided being a “lab rat” was more isolating than she wanted. She’s a “people person” who happens to be very talented in science. She got an Masters of Arts in Teaching after she graduated. During her masters program, she was very frustrated with the “educational research” she was required to read and study. She found that “educational research” was nothing like the rigor and control required in pure “scientific research”. She found it difficult to respect research that did not follow the scientific method with stringent control groups, intense peer review, and the ability for numerous other researchers to duplicate the exact results. I guess she takes after her dad who is a CDC research scientist with over a hundred scientific publications.

When cancer researchers develop a treatment protocol, do you have any idea how many times this treatment must be duplicated and duplicated and duplicated again with the exact same controls in place and the same results seen before other scientists will accept the treatment as efficacious?

As a 30 year retired teaching veteran, (regular ed 10 years, gifted 11 years, teacher trainer 10 years – class sizes from 20 to 34, low, middle, upper income schools, ESOL certified, you name it – I’ve taught it), I think educational studies added value to my teaching. I found the ones who adhered closest to the scientific method to be the most valuable since I could reliably duplicate the results with students in my classroom.

I do understand my daughter’s frustrations. You can’t really compare educational studies to the scientific studies of my husband who is a virologist with research published in Nature and Science. His studies are very controlled, peer reviewed and able to be duplicated with the same results each time as long as you follow the same protocol.

Currently, my daughter is a science teacher in a high school. She is extremely enthusiastic, loves her students, and loves teaching. Her passion for science has her teaching her students the importance of the scientific method, insist that they are meticulous in their labs, and requires them to state their conclusions in a logical and well written manner. Virtually all of her students passed the science EOCT, 40% at the Exceeds level. I think they did so well because they had a competent teacher who is well versed in the subject matter and has that ephemeral ability to understand what enables students to make the connection between what is taught and what is learned. I don’t know if she will stay in teaching. Quite frankly her father and I are encouraging her to leave public education. We would like to see her go back to graduate school and get another degree so she can teach at a college level. That seems like a more attractive working situation.

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I’ve taught classes as small as 9 and as large as 37 in my teaching career thus far. Class size most impacts the teacher not the student. Most teachers’ behavior does not change when their classes decrease thus contributing to the lack of student impact. If you have a class of 15 instruction should be different from one of 38. Good teachers make it work regardless of class size, weak teachers fail regardless of class size. Teachers benefit when they have less paperwork to wade through and that may create a happier teacher but with instructional change it does not matter.

BTW, I wonder if the hours parents actually read to their children over the last say 20 years has increased or decreased? Want to boost reading scores? Read to your children! Teach them how to read before they enter school. Spend time talking with them. Don’t use Dora, or the Wii, or any other electronic device to raise your child. That will do more than anything else to boost student achievement.

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Ms. Maureen….I am going to disagree with you about attitudes toward research in general… Many people DO indeed question the results of research on cancer and other health related studies. There are many , even those in the Health professions who point out very often that CORRELATION DOES NOT MEAN CAUSATION. In many of the studies regarding causes of health problems the variables are absolutely not controlled and are questioned by many, many intelligent people.

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From the Tennessee study, once the class sizes get below 15 is when there is a significant and positive effect on student achievement AND these effects were only seen in classrooms heavily affected by high minority populations and heavy impact due to poverty. Florida’s class size constitutional amendment was extremely costly and was doomed before it got out of the gate. In addition to the burdensome costs, Florida also enacted extreme budget reduction measures and restricted local districts’ abilities to raise revenues through property taxes. To “study” the class size effect in the midst of all the other “hand-tying” measures was a bit unfair to the teachers, students and school systems of that state.

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If the study shows no significant difference in lowering class size by 3 students- Why is the conclusion that class reduction should be eliminated altogether? It SHOULD mean that another study is needed to see what is the number of students needed to show a significant difference. Is it a reduction of 5 students, 8 students or 10 students, etc. from a class of 30 students or a class of 25 students, etc.? The goal of the study should be determining what class size does make a significant difference in achievement in order for effectively funding and use that data to cap class sizes. However, unfortunately this study is focused on studying an economic policy rather than an educational policy (as previously stated by a blogger). I wonder if he was hired by the school system and how much was he paid for this study. Thus, questioning his impartially to the results.

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Correction- The goal of the study should be determining what class size does make a significant difference in achievement in order for “effective” funding and use that data to cap class sizes.

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I can understand your concern about labs. Labs above 24 students in high school are unsafe for students. Lab accidents go up dramatically after that number. DeKalb Schools does not require labs because we have such large class sizes and they know accidents are more prevalent in large class lab class sizes. Even universities with 150 students in a chemistry or biology class don’t have over 30 students in a lab situation. I guess science lab safety was not looked at in this study. Or maybe the author doesn’t feel labs are necessary for science.

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Back during King Roy’s administration, the state was supposedly going to decrease the maximum for lab classes to the NSTA-recommended 24.

Still waiting….

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[...] from its local board before raising class sizes.Before the naysayers get started, class sizes have no impact on grades, according to a study from [...]

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Several posts asked for studies to see exactly what size reduction… 6, 8, 10 produce benefits to student learning. Not once did they ask for a ROI (return on investment for all you teachers) calculation to see if a slight achievement uptick is worth the millions of taxpayer dollars per fractional-point increase. I’ll bet if you reduced class size to one-on-one tutoring you’d see achievement scores increase…and we taxpayers would be flat out broke!

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1. Sudies are interesting. They drive money and policies. However, studies are often overturned with a closer look and repeated research. There is an ebb and flow to ‘all’ studies. Remember all of the dicussion over phonics and whole language? In the end…we need a good blend of both…

2. I have a brain. I am in the classroom. I know the benefit of a smaller class size. I am the one facilitating ‘thick questions’ and inferential comprehension. I know how my class learns and absorbs concepts more clearly when I can break them into small groups and assessments. When student’s anxiety can be reduced, laughter implemented, and confidence gained, they flourish. I am building children that will be adjusted for the the long haul…not just a standardized test. That is something that cannot be calculated by any real research. So Matthew Chingos spent an unusual amount of time (an effort) on a study that I find meaningless. I do not need his study to drive my classroom. I am the professional in the classroom. I see clearly how class size drives my methods. He cannot know my results. He has no knowledge of my records, He does not sit at the ‘connection table’ with me and my students. He is an outsider making an inside decision. It would be like me going into an operating room and trying to determine a surgeon’s efficient use of time and how many surgeries he should be doing. Meaningless. There will be other studies down the road that make his become obselete. Ridiculous indeed. Mr. Chingos go sit in the classroom. Follow the engaged learning that takes place (follow the children of large and small class sizes) and then at least your research would have some credible merit. Your Harvard pedigree does not phase me. I see clearly the faces of real research in front of me each day. I know the time involved with small and large classes. I am the expert.

.3. Three students might very well have no real effect on the Florida class size. That would depend on the grade (they are all unique with different objectives), the teachers in the study, and the academic ability of the students. There are tremendous variables that were not accounted for in the study. I might reach 15 second graders extremely well. Three gifted students would not change the mix up much…three learning challenged children might make a world of difference. Everything depends on the teacher, the ability of students, and the support of parents and administration. With every state in a financial crisis we will have to be alert to studies done to drive state budgets because money is obselete. We are the professionals in the classroom. We don’t need studies to drive our methods. Educators should be included in any real the research…but then the outcome would not be what President Obama and our goverment would need to make all their radical cuts.

I appreciate Mr. Chingos’ study that is presently being circulated; but in light of drastic teacher layoffs, and increased class sizes, (in Florida and Georgia) I just don’t buy a word of it. Time will tell the rest of this research evidence.

Watch and see…

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I apologize for the wacky way the text is all over the page. I am not sure what happened.

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