Latest study: Reducing class size doesn’t benefit student achievement
As often happens within education research, major studies contradict one another, and that is again the case with the new study on whether state-mandated class size reductions in Florida improved student achievement. In a word, the study out of Harvard said “no.”
The question bears consideration here in Georgia where many systems are increasing the number of students in a class to save money. (By the way, the author of this study, Matthew Chingos, co-wrote “Crossing the Finish Line: Completing College at America’s Public Universities.” and here is an interview I did with him on that book.)
According to the official release:
A new study finds that Florida’s 2002 constitutional amendment mandating a reduction in the size of classes in school districts throughout the state had no discernible impact upon student achievement, either positive or negative.
Florida’s constitutional amendment, which forced districts to use state funds for class reduction unless they had already reduced class sizes to an acceptable level, had no impact on average student performance. Students in schools where districts were not forced to spend their money on class size reduction improved as much on state tests as those attending schools in districts subject to the constitutional mandate. The study also found no significantly different impact on the average performance of ethnic and racial groups or between economically advantaged and disadvantaged students.
The study, conducted by Matthew M. Chingos, a research fellow at Harvard University’s Program on Education Policy and Governance, analyzed student-level data provided by the Florida Department of Education to follow all students in grades four through eight who took the state reading and math tests between 2001 and 2007. During this time, average class size was reduced by about three students. Chingos found that students attending schools that were required to reduce class size did no better on state math and reading tests than students attending schools that were given funding to spend as they saw fit. The study also showed no discernible impact on student absenteeism and behavior problems.
“We do not know from this study whether giving districts more unrestricted state funds has positive effects or not,” Chingos said, “but the study strongly suggests that monies restricted for the purpose of funding class-size reduction mandates are not a productive use of limited educational resources.”
The class size amendment is estimated to have cost about $20 billion over the first eight years of the program and $4 billion per year subsequently. Florida’s voters will be asked this coming November whether or not they wish to revise the constitution’s class size requirement to apply to average class size in each school rather than the size of every individual classroom.
“This study is extraordinarily important given the great strain that Florida’s class-size reduction policy is putting on the Florida state budget,” commented Paul E. Peterson, director PEPG. “I hope this study serves as a wake-up call to state legislatures across the nation as they make tough budgetary decisions,” he added. In recent years, 24 states have mandated class-size reduction policies.
In an essay in the journal Education Next, Peterson — who is also editor-in-chief of Education Next — offer insights into why this research study does not agree with an earlier study of class size out of Tennessee that found benefits:
Peterson writes:
Why do his results differ from those found in Tennessee? Chingos does not offer any definite explanation, but here are some possibilities. The teachers in Tennessee knew they were participating in an experiment, which if successful could persuade the legislature to make class size reduction a statewide priority. Knowing that a positive result could be of benefit to them, the teachers assigned to smaller classes might have become more assiduous and enthusiastic than those assigned to larger classes.
Secondly, the schools with larger classes did not receive comparable fiscal resources in Tennessee, as was the case in Florida. The gains in Tennessee may have come from extra resources, not anything specific to class size reduction. Finally, the Florida information tells us what happens when a state government tries to bring about class size reduction on a large scale, whereas the Tennessee experiment was limited to only a fairly small number of schools and to much larger reductions in class size.
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125 comments Add your comment
An advocate for public education change & choice
May 19th, 2010
11:58 am
I would agree the study as projected in this article does seem to be missing some elements that could help subsantciate its findings.
Personally, I have spent some time observing classrooms at the high school level and deduced that class size at a certain point does have an effect on the effectiveness of a teacher in the classroom.
Vince
May 19th, 2010
11:58 am
I agree with a couple of other posts. When I taught, I had classes as large as 41 and as small as 16 over the period of the 1980’s. You lose a little something when class size goes over 30, BUT I felt I also lost something when the class was smaller than 22 or so.
Other than kindergarten and 1st grade (which need to be smaller)I think the ideal class size is 25 – 28.
catlady
May 19th, 2010
12:01 pm
It depends on which 3 extra students we are talking about!
At least in the elementary grades, each student added above, say, 22 is an exponential addition! (Like what I discovered when I had my children: one plus one is MORe than 2 and 2 plus one is a LOT MORE THAN 3 and more than 3x 1!
Matt Chingos
May 19th, 2010
12:01 pm
The caps are 18 in grades PK-3, 22 in grades 4-8, and 25 in grades 9-12, to be implemented by the beginning of the 2010-11 school year (i.e., this fall). But because some classes are under the cap, average class sizes are already below these numbers even though there are still individual classrooms above these numbers. This November, Florida voters will decide whether to change to the policy so that the caps apply to school-average class size and not individual classrooms (although individual classrooms could not be more than a few students over the caps, so very large classes will not be allowed — see http://www.flsenate.gov/data/session/2010/Senate/bills/billtext/pdf/s0002.pdf for the full text of the proposed amendment).
My study is a very carefully considered attempt to isolate the causal impact of Florida’s class-size reduction policy; it is not a simple correlational study. The full study is available here: http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG10-03_Chingos.pdf
GSU Eagle 91
May 19th, 2010
12:02 pm
I must use my own child as an example here. She is graduating from High School this Saturday and will attend a small, liberal arts college in the Fall.
If she was herded into a classroom with a large number of students, the instructor would get very little out of her. her quiet, somewhat shy outlook is not condusive to success in a lecture hall type arena..But in a small setting, she prospers and has excellent grades.
The point here is each child reacts differently to these classroom changes.
MY problem is: Teachers today seemingly have little back up on students who disrupt the class, causing interested students time and knowledge. These behavioral problems and lack of interest certainly develop from a troubled home situation, or simply apathy on account of the parent(s).
I believe the public school system is on the brink of total collapse…….
Rob
May 19th, 2010
12:03 pm
John, you grew up in a different era. Two parent homes, discipline in schools and no sense of entitlement.
mystery poster
May 19th, 2010
12:04 pm
lies, damn lies, and statistics…
mountain mom
May 19th, 2010
12:04 pm
I think larger classes would affect the out of class time and workload on the teachers more than anything…. Parent communication would definitely be more time consuming; and I think teachers would assign fewer essays, reports and in-depth projects — especially at high school level. Six classes of 30+ kids each, one essay assignment becomes 180 papers to read, analyze and grade. Computer-based tests and scantron sheets would become even more prevalent out of necessity.
Love2Teach
May 19th, 2010
12:05 pm
To JP and Dr. Trotter,
Administration is critical, I completely agree! One of the very best schools with the best administration is in Douglas County, Chapel Hill High School. They are fair but firm and take no nonsense. They support their teachers and do the best they can to effectively manage class sizes in these changing times. They believe that if a student is preventing a teacher from teaching then they must handle it, even though they are extremely busy themselves. All school administrators should come visit our school and see how it works. We even have the best ISS teachers. ISS is for real here. A team is so critical to class size increases in the schools next year.
Love2Teach
May 19th, 2010
12:08 pm
It seems to me that every comment is saying something quite similar: the PARENT factor. Where are the studies on the hundreds of thousands of parents who think their children are perfect, who harrass teachers and administrators constantly, who don’t ensure their children behave appropriately in school? That’s the study I’d like to see. GSU Eagle thinks the education system is on the brink of collapse? It certainly will be if parents don’t begin to wake up and handle their children.
PsychMom
May 19th, 2010
12:10 pm
I think that the Harvard study found exactly what any one of us would have predicted. Reducing class size by 3 across the board is a colossal waste of money. If Florida had targeted specific schools for larger reductions, based on need, I am sure the money would have been better spent.
I echo others when I say that across the board policies about class size are silly. Why not look at the issue on multiple levels- first at the district level, then at each school, finally each classroom. Administrators and teachers could easily go through their school and student roster and tell you which classrooms could handle more students and which really need less. But I am not sure how one would study this- except maybe look at schools that were given this power vs. ones that were mandated to certain class sizes.
@Matt
May 19th, 2010
12:14 pm
Yet some people in Cobb, Fulton, and even the state are saying that 40 is okay. What about 40, Matt?
Doris M
May 19th, 2010
12:20 pm
The matter with education is that there are so many different theories as to how students achieve. Everybody and his brother has a thought and a theory on education. Yet, nothing has worked for the mass of public school students.
Maybe the problem is with the top administrators who want to practice every new idea on our children. When my son was in elementary school, the new “thing” was whole language. I ended up with a student who could not spell. The teachers told me that spelling would come later and that he did not need to memorize the spelling words. Well, he is now a slave to the dictionary.
I grew up with more than 30 students in my classes and we had some of the highest achieving students in my Tennessee school. Give us a break educators! Just adopt one theory, get it right and stick with it. Stop wasting my considerable tax money!!
SGaDawgette
May 19th, 2010
12:23 pm
Maureen, in regard to your query about which systems will see class sizes increase by 10 or more, I don’t know of a “specific” one. However, unless the calculation formula for arriving at maximum class sizes has changed in the past few years, it could be quite a few. The “maximum allowed class size” is (or used to be) an AVERAGE class size, derived by dividing the total number of students in a school by the total number of certificated personnel. I’m sure everyone is aware that principals, APs, and team leaders (all administrators) have to have certificates but RARELY actually teach children. Also, special ed teachers, whose classes are naturally smaller than the “regular” classroom, are certificated. The “average” number is therefore skewed. It might be worth some investigation to see if the formula has changed. If not, you might have plenty of systems and classes to visit.
Brad
May 19th, 2010
12:24 pm
studies have shown that most studies don’t show sh#@!
Teaching is worse in FL
May 19th, 2010
12:28 pm
I have previously stated before in this blog my distaste and skepticism when it comes to “research.” I am currently doing my own for a specialist course, but have to hold my nose while doing it.
When dealing with humans, there are many similarities in behavior. Nonetheless, too many variables exist when doing large scale studies such as this. The math eggheads have reliability scales to “mathematically prove” their suppositions, but I continue to be skeptical. How do you make a control group for this type of study?
Bottom line: Chemistry of a group, physical makeup of the environment, parent involvement, materials, administrative support, teacher training, etc……all of these things affect reliability.
Paulo977
May 19th, 2010
12:30 pm
William
re:”Shouldn’t I be more concerned with developng a student’s critical thinking?” Great question …this is what real education should be and of course large classes just prevent teachers being able to devote the time necessary for using strategies to develop this in students . Private schools are well aware of this and limit class sizes . The irony is that private schools usually house the more affluent who eventually go on to positions of influece in the society and of course go on to support the status quo while the those in public education simply accept their low positions because they never have been taught to think critically!!
Dennis
May 19th, 2010
12:33 pm
Does class size benefit student achievement? Of course it does – sometimes. If the school environment legitimately (important – almost all schools say they do) endorses individual attention and addressing individual needs and learning styles, then the answer is yes. A teacher working with fewer students has more time to devote to each. If the school system or leadership places more emphasis on test scores than they do on learning, than maybe. And if the emphasis is more on simply lowering the drop-out rate and moving students along, than probably not. In any event, my experience of more than thirty years as the head of PK-12 grade non-public college preparatory schools has shown me that those in our industry driven strictly by “research” and “data” haven’t a clue as to what impacts student achievement. But that is another story for another time. Bottom line with this class size impact question – wouldn’t it be refreshing to have a school board in support of announcing an increase in class size for the following school year simply say that “this is an economic move” – and not attempt to justify it with pedagogical banter.
Teaching is worse in FL
May 19th, 2010
12:35 pm
@ER: Studies of class-size often try to control for instructional methods in order to ensure that the comparison actually hones in on class-size as the dependent variable”
If the law requires ALL classes to be reduced, there is no control group.
Laura Brodie
May 19th, 2010
12:38 pm
Small class size is crucial for some subjects, and less important for others. When it comes to memorizing facts for a standardized multiple choice test, class size is less important. However, smaller classes are essential for good writing instruction, which is falling by the wayside in our test-prep mania. (Kudos to V for Vendetta for the time you are trying to devote to individualized writing instruction.) Many of today’s exhausted teachers have given up on assigning papers, or they place a grade on a paper without offering any comments. They rely instead on true and false worksheets, matching, and multiple choice.
In a perfect world, high schools and middle schools would identify “writing intensive classes” in a variety of subjects that required a minimum number of writing assignments, in which teachers were expected to comment extensively on student work. Small class size would be the reward for the teachers who were willing to make tha ttime commitment. Much larger classes could be used for subjects where the students’ work is less individualized, and the grading less time-intensive. That’s the model used by most colleges.
Small class size is also key for students who need remedial help in all grades, and for all K-3 students, as noted above.
Ultimately, class size, like most education questions, should be tailored to fit the needs of each community’s student population. School districts need flexibility to spend money in ways that work for their children and teachers. But our nation is obsessed with the futile search for one-size-fits-all solutions.
@ John
May 19th, 2010
12:40 pm
I also teach 1st grade and I see a huge difference from when I was teaching with a class size reduction grant (12-13 kids) to the 18, (which is still small) that I teach now. Your wife probably has no behavior issues in her class of 30. I mean the type of 6 year olds that yell at you, curse you out, run out of the room and you spend 10 minutes chasing them around outside the school building. (That happened several times this year, even just yesterday) She also may not have had the pleasure of working with severely mentally delayed students in her class and I want you to reflect on whether or not these things went on in YOUR elementary class. I don’t care what any study says, I do this for a living, and there is so much more that I am able to do with a smaller class vs. a larger class. My 12 students got truly INDIVIDUALIZED instruction regularly. That is impossible to do more than once or twice a week in a larger class setting.
Rick
May 19th, 2010
12:41 pm
Why does it make a difference?
An 18 year old student moves from 30 student classes in HS to 200 student classes in a large auditorium just 3 or 4 months later when enrolled at State U.
Personally, I learn everything from reading a book. If I don’t get it from one book, I try another. Very few teachers are interesting and prepared enough to maintain my interest for 50 minutes. I’m sure that everyone has their own learning style. However, the consequences of allowing the children of illegal aliens to overcrowd our local schools dictates that our own children will have fewer educational options that fit their learning style. Yet we still have the taxpayer resources to provide ESOL classes for Spanish speakers.
Fan
May 19th, 2010
12:45 pm
There is a huge difference between designing a study on the impact of differing class sizes, and studying the impact of a law the effects class sizes in FL. The variables in FL that are not controlled or even tracked make the research quetionable for application in other scenarios. This is just more fodder.
The points made by ‘Educational Researcher’ are consistent with the research I have read covering class size, and the quality of instruction is obviously key to any such study, and commonly a flaw.
As for why private schools advertise their small class sizes. This is called advertising. It doesn’t require a formal study about the claim’s effectiveness other than its appeal to parents, especially those that care and that have the money.
The other point this conversation brings to mind is one of my mother’s. She is an retired teacher, and she says both she and my father wanted things to be better for my generation, so they believed strongly in the public education system. By their definition, a strong middle class was an educated middle class, and the public education system was the backbone of amderica. This was the WWII generation’s thinking. The current thinking is more along, “I got mine and I am tired of paying for yours. No one is entitled to a free education.” Then they add, “And don’t touch my social security.” So, the question I ask is, Who will be paying your social security in the future if our kids aren’t educated?”
The study
May 19th, 2010
12:46 pm
This study attempts to justify that adding more kids in the class will not impact student performance . I THINK the powers to be need this study for their own defense to save $$ on education. Education has always been the big elephant in the room when planning the next year’s fiscal budget. Like, If I want society to eat mercury, I might do a study on the lack of calories and how it is easy to find showing it isn’t that bad, but none the less it’s poison. (not a perfect metaphor but it’s what’s on my mind.)
Teaching is worse in FL
May 19th, 2010
12:47 pm
@ Matt Chingos: Forgive me if this sounds like an attack, but I have questions that need to be answered. I intend to read your entire study at my leisure (planning is almost over).
I notice your study was done in the department of government. Does that mean you are not an education major? What classroom experience do you have?
I can tell you as an aspiring doctor I would never dream of doing such impactful research unless I truly had experience in this area.
ESOL
May 19th, 2010
12:48 pm
I teach high school and I would love to see more spanish-speaking students help out other kids who take spanish I-IV.
Dee
May 19th, 2010
12:58 pm
Although class size matters, I think that class composition is most important. Until our educators are empowered to remove problem students, the size of the class won’t make a difference. So long as our teachers are required to spend time every day disciplining and trying to control the same few unruly children the rest of the students are having their educational opportunity stolen from them. This year my son is in a class with one particular troublemaker and the teacher has even said that he cannot remove the kid because he has already been moved twice from other classes to this one (I suspect because they hoped a male teacher would be able to control the little imp). The entire class breathes a sigh of relief when the imp asks for a pass to use the washroom. These are sixth graders and they realize that their own learning is being impacted and they just wish the imp would stay in the washroom for the entire class period. My child is not an angel, nor are the others, but they know they are being hurt and the school can’t do a thing about it.
Paulo977
May 19th, 2010
12:58 pm
William
re: your question on “critical thinking”
Of course class size matters because this involves time for dialogue , individual attention , differentiated and heuristic techniques as opposed to whole class lectures and drill sheets. Unfortunately , even those supposed to be interested in education are not too comfortable with developing critical thinking in kids and so we will remain exactly where we are !
Pluto
May 19th, 2010
1:01 pm
Why is it that if someone associated with Harvard does something, anything; we are supposed to bow in reverence. Let’s seeour current president spent some time at Harvard and Lord knows he’s the smartest thing since Oppenheimer or Heisenberg. I teach science in high school and I don’t need some pinhead from an Ivy League school to tell me that it makes no statistical difference in what is learned by students in a classroom. I can give more personal attention with 20 or 21 than I can with 30 or more and my students learn and retain more of what they need to know to perform on the myriad of high stakes multipple choice tests that they are required to take. How much tax payer money was wasted on this?
Matt Chingos
May 19th, 2010
1:04 pm
@ Teaching is worse in FL: I recently completed a PhD in Government (which is what Harvard calls political science). Much of my research is on education policy. I think it is reasonable for political scientists to study the effects of a policy — in this case, an untargeted class-size reduction mandate — even if they do not have experience as practitioners in that policy area. I am not saying that the Florida policy had no effect based on my personal experience — I analyzed data on every student in Florida over a period of several years to calculate what effect the policy had. Whether I’ve done that in a credible way is for readers of my study to decide.
Maureen Downey
May 19th, 2010
1:09 pm
@Pluto and others, I do want to address this dismissal of research by several of you. I don’t get it as no one would ever say this about cancer research. The doctors who treat cancer know a lot about their patients, but it takes a large-scale sample group and intense analysis of the data to move the research ahead as to what works and what doesn’t. (And many cancer researchers are not seeing patients every day. So, I am not sure why education researchers have to be in the classroom to be credible.)
I think educators should applaud studies because effective teaching is not happenstance. It’s a profession that requires training, skills and knowledge and I think studies enhance the professionalism of the field as well as speak to its importance.
Maureen
teacher
May 19th, 2010
1:10 pm
Try teaching forty kids raising cane. Study that for a while.
Gail
May 19th, 2010
1:13 pm
As long as the discipline is under control, except for the added work for the teachers with grading papers, it should not make that much of a difference. My daughter was in a small (16) 1st grade class that unfortunately had a couple of discipline problems. It did impact the learning of the other students. One or two bad apples can really change the dynamics of a classroom.
I attended school in the 70’s. There was the threat of being paddled by the principal. I don’t remember any real discipline problems. Not that I’m advocating going back to corporal punishment, but I think that is why the discipline wasn’t an issue. Either get paddled at school or get it at home.
Pluto
May 19th, 2010
1:23 pm
My Dear Ms. Downey there is a world of difference between science and social science. Once you put “man/woman” into the mix there is such a large bias of uncertainty that it is difficult to predict measured responses. Social scientists have been trying to emulate biological/physical scientists for years to gain credibility but I, for one, haven’t bought into it.
The Bottom and Top get shorted
May 19th, 2010
1:25 pm
If class sizes are increased there will be less time for kids at the bottom and top. We already short change the smarter kids with the dumbing down of classes by pushing “inclusion” to help the bottom students. The teacher spends an inordinate amount of time helping the bottom group and less time helping the smarter students excel to greater levels. But as class sizes are increased, there will also be less time for those at the bottom and those kids will suffer academically. Both groups lose.
You could put 60 kids in a class and the smart, engaged ones will find a way to get through it. So what. That doesn’t prove large class sizes are ok. The stress levels for students crammed into an inadequate space, and teachers dealing with a even larger work load for “less money” will be through the roof.
Rich
May 19th, 2010
1:32 pm
It matters from a disciple view. Kids are not as well behaved as in the past.
What have the school boards and state legislature done for teachers lately?
May 19th, 2010
1:34 pm
How about a little help. It would be mostly symbolic, but there are a few little things that both groups could do to help teachers. Why do we have to pay for lunches, car tags, etc. With all the cut-backs and furloughs somethings could be thrown our way.
And where is all this money we’re GIVING BACK going in the future. Why couldn’t extra monies for retirement or increased raises in the future be offered to get us though this current situation. Most teachers would be far more receptive to “helping out” now for a promise of being taken care of in the future.
No, we’re just demoted.
Bone
May 19th, 2010
1:36 pm
No matter what is said, you can’t conduct any class without discipline, which in today’s society is non-existent. With more kids in a classroom, it just makes the matter worst.
I have said again and again…spend a week, or even a day, with a class that you can’t do anything to. Kids know this, and they will get away with anything, because they know Mommy and Daddy will get him/her out of trouble, because they are special!!
BTW…a study out of any college is worth the price of a million dollar home these days….not even the worth of ink on the paper. Again, get them into these classrooms and see what they can’t teach behind their tenure.
Meme
May 19th, 2010
1:42 pm
Well, Maureen, the cancer didn’t miss sleep because mama is running a honky tonk, or because ‘Uncle Joe’ is bothering her, or because she is hungry or dirty. I think that research is very different.
Rich
May 19th, 2010
1:46 pm
Over the last number of years, class size has decreased in Georgia and scores have not improved. It seems to me that class size does not matter. Of course, there are exceptions (special needs) and extremes (200 2nd graders. This is true for Monet also. The real question that needs to be answered is what will improve our schools? Not what have we done before and not seen improvement from.
Teaching is worse in FL
May 19th, 2010
1:47 pm
@ Pluto: Exactly the point I was trying to make.
@ Matt Chingos: Please know I do not mean to attack, just understand. Teaching has truly taught me my limitations and my strengths. My research is action research, quite different from yours. I am studying an Autism treatment, which I have extensive experience in. As I previously stated, I would not deem it appropriate to do research having only done a literature review.
In perspective, I also understand your research may very well be a stepping stone for further studies.
Teaching is worse in FL
May 19th, 2010
1:49 pm
OOPS. The comments from Pluto I agree with: “My Dear Ms. Downey there is a world of difference between science and social science.”
Not the pinhead part. I abhor the word and the man who made it unusable.
whatever
May 19th, 2010
1:54 pm
Studies are great, especially the ones where you already know what you want the outcome to be. First, you have to assume that test scores are the end all measure of student achievement. Second, you are comparing the test scores of 27 students one year to a different 30 students another year. Not too many variables there.
And please, no more “when I was growing up 30 years ago” stories. Life is a little different now from back then. O.k., one more story…when i was in elementary school 35 years ago, my principle had a huge paddle hanging on his wall. I can’t remember if it was just 1 or maybe 10 kids he killed with that thing (so the legend went). With those conditions, it didn’t matter how many students in the classroom. You behaved or got sent to the principles office to see him and his paddle. Then you got it when you got home as well. Today, it is a treat to got sent to the principles office. And when you get home, it is always the teachers or someone elses fault.
Sorry, a little off topic. I will get off of my soap box now.
Dekalbite
May 19th, 2010
1:54 pm
Of course competent teachers are more important than class size. But at a certain point increased class sizes deter competent teachers. Put a competent teacher in any sized class and he/she can probably get the job done. Will most of the best and brightest want to go into teaching with class sizes as large as 33, 34, 35 36? No, of course not. Will most of the best and brightest want to stay in teaching if the stress level is higher while the pay is lower? Only in our dreams and in educational studies.
Consider the exceptionally high attrition rate of Teach for America. That’s the best and brightest from many prestigious universities. Why does this program have so many who leave the teaching field after 2 to 3 years?
Any employer knows you have to make your work environment attractive to get top notch employees. They aren’t relying on a Harvard study. They just know this intuitively.
Dr. Ravitch says
May 19th, 2010
2:11 pm
Here is an interesting perspective from Diane Ravitch, who actually knows what she is talking about.
Harold
May 19th, 2010
2:18 pm
“The study, conducted by Matthew M. Chingos, a research fellow at Harvard University’s Program on Education Policy and Governance, analyzed student-level data provided by the Florida Department of Education to follow all students in grades four through eight who took the state reading and math tests between 2001 and 2007. During this time, average class size was reduced by about three students. ”
What a laugh! Reducing class size by an average of three students is what this study is based on. It would have a lot more credibility to me if they were talking about class sizes being reduced by 8 to 10.
Vince
May 19th, 2010
2:21 pm
I would take a class of 60 5th graders over a class of 10 kindergarten kids any day.
lyncoln
May 19th, 2010
2:29 pm
I think the study is pretty well done. All the speculation about what would happen if class sizes went to 35 or 60 or 10 are just speculation.
The study isn’t designed to tell you that if a class has X students the achievement will be Y. It’s to study if all the money Florida spent to reduce class sizes in many districts actually increased scores.
Apparently, the Florida reduction of class sizes had little overall effect on middle school math and reading scores. For those that missed the important info from the study, the classes either had about 22 students or 25 students. The 25 student classrooms were changed at the district level so that classes had about 22 students. The analysis found that the scores for the newly reduced classrooms were essentially the same as the ones for the unchanged classrooms.
As a few of the comments said, the difference between 25 and 22 isn’t a big deal, but 30 and 27 is. It’s too bad you weren’t able to let Florida know that before they spend more than $20 billion dollars.
sharethelove
May 19th, 2010
2:49 pm
Let me just say that as a teacher of 1st grade it makes a huge difference when you add kids to the classroom. I had 16 kids last year and felt like I was able to give them each a lot more attention and could do a lot more. This year I have 22. Its hard to move around the room and have one on one time like you want. Maybe for the older kids this wouldn’t make a difference but I can say that at a young age the fewer the kids the better.
@ Rich
May 19th, 2010
2:57 pm
Barnes was a great proponent to reduce class size. Class sizes were reduced over the space of 3 years. High school class sizes were down to 28. In the next year, they are rising to 35, 36 37, 38 even 40. Unfortunately, students do not go through school in 3 years so there was no way to see the effect of reduced class sizes in Georgia. Education tends to have a cummulative effect.
Perdue came in and immediately class sizes have risen ever since. And how has that worked out for students in Georgia?
Please realize that when Barnes reduced class sizes in Georgia, the effect on school systems was that admin and support numbers were reduced. Superintendents in every school system screamed bloody murder that they could not spend the extra money for teachers. Barnes insisted they could. The superintendents ended up reducing the “bureaucracy” tremendously – they were given no choice. As soon as Perdue came in and let superintendents increase class sizes, the superintendents immediately began to increase class sizes and reduce the number of teachers. They used these”extra” funds to hire administrators, coordinators, non-teaching employees, support personnel, etc.
If you want to reduce the “bureaucracy” in teaching, give the superintendents no additional funds or cut their funding and then reduce class sizes. They will be forced to trim the “fat”. We have so much “fat” in the administrative end, you can’t fathom it unless you’re “in the system”.