Fulton’s new high school: Should we be building palaces in this climate?
I have to agree with this reader about the detailed plans for the new Bethany Road High School in Milton. It does look grand. (The plans can be viewed in this Google.doc).
Does this new Fulton County school – or any school — need to be this elaborate when we are cutting teachers and raising class sizes? I have often argued that I would accept a broom closet for my kids’ classroom if a great teacher was leading the class. I think the critical issue is top personnel more than top facilities. That is where I would put my money.
Here is what the reader said:
With all the furloughs, layoffs, budget cuts, shortage of books to take home, elimination of after school programs, art, music, and PE classes, somehow the school boards find the money to build monuments such as the new Bethany Road High School to be built in Milton. The plans give you a perspective of the scope of the structure.
While it is important to provide enough classrooms and other facilities, and to integrate LEED and life cycle costing into the materials used in the public schools, what the h-e-double-l do they need a tower standing 63 above the ground for?
And all the precast material used on the tower and on the building facade will cost 5 to 10 times more than brick. This tower alone will easily cost the taxpayers over $50,000 to construct, and I can see no useful purpose except as a monument to the architect. I guess that is a small amount of money for a monument, considering the budget is an estimated $60 million dollars.
It looks good, along with the expensive precast materials, but are these expensive accents and building materials really necessary to provide the students with a good learning environment? Is there anyone minding the store to see that our property tax dollars are being spent wisely in the economic downturn?
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117 comments Add your comment
Reality
April 23rd, 2010
2:06 pm
Fedup
Are you aware that in recent history, there was a County south of Atlanta, I think called Campbell County? Why won’t Campbell County reform and have its own school system?
Fedup
April 23rd, 2010
2:17 pm
Reality, State law currently holds that GA may only keep the current number total for school districts; therefore, if/when Milton secedes, either South Fulton folds into APS, or APS folds into Fulton…that would keep the legislated number in line with the law. Never heard of Campbell County, but I do think that many, many years ago there was a Campbell HS in South Fulton. I believe the citizens in South Fulton who pay attention to this issue aren’t going to fight a separation as they should understand that the tax base in Atlanta is much better than North Fulton and perhaps they may benefit by belonging to a district where these urban schools can get the admin attention they need to improve.
RJ
April 23rd, 2010
2:19 pm
@Reality, there is crime EVERYWHERE! I live in a beautiful neighborhood with educated people. I have family that lives in Roswell and Alpharetta that live in beautiful neighborhoods with educated people. My neighborhood is 99% black, there’s is mostly white. To assume that our schools need bars is ridiculous!
@Fedup, I work in APS and I can assure you that I want no part of Atlanta City. We voted on this issue two years ago and chose to keep things as they are. We simply want fair play. We had to BEG for a new Westlake, when we get one it’s not close to many north Fulton schools. Plus, I live in the suburbs. I like living in the suburbs and I have no plan of leaving. Atlanta is urban, not south Fulton.
Trypout
April 23rd, 2010
2:23 pm
I grew up in Metro Atlanta and attended school in Dekalb County. I have a child in school in South Fulton but I work in North Fulton. The differences in the schools in each part of the county is like nothing I have ever seen. A class-system that has been established and will never change. Children will suffer because their parents are a part of the declining middle class and have not been able to break into the higher socio-economic class. The citizens of South Fulton need to stop worrying about what is in North Fulton because they will be Milton County soon enough. South Fulton just needs to go ahead and do what it has to do for their children because no one else is going to watch out for them.
Jamesr1991
April 23rd, 2010
2:26 pm
@Elem Teacher I’m sorry to break the news to you. Alpharetta, Milton and Johns Creek have only a few things in common as for the building. My SPLOST money, brick and mortar. Their designs and floor plans are VERY DIFFERENT. Visit Google Earth, Bing Maps and the schools website under Parsons to see those schools are NOT alike. Milton was built with General Funds money not SPLOST $. The masssive columns blew my mind. The old school was suppose to be sold for $25M so the money could go for the Westlake rebuild. The board reneged.
@Reality and Fedup Those of us from these parts don’t want any part of the City of Atlanta or it’s school system. Leave S Fulton out of any merging talk with Atlanta. we are paying our own way. It’s hard as you know what but we are not depending on north Fulton or Atlanta to survive.
There’s a reason why south Fulton and north Fulton schools are in the same athletic regions. They don’t want us to see the schools they have built with OUR MONEY
Jamesr1991
April 23rd, 2010
2:34 pm
@Elem Teacher sorry you are incorrect about the Milton, Alpharetta and Johns Creek high schools. They are as different as an apple and orange. Visit google earth, bing to see it for your self. The exteriors are not alike. They may have the same number of classrooms but that where the similarities end.
@Fed up I’m a native of Atlanta (Grady baby and proud). Those of us who know the history don’t want to be a part of Atlanta or its school system. The state law refers to county (capped at 159). Campbell and Milton County merged into Fulton when they went broke around 1932.
@Trypout Not sure why you are considering south Fulton middle class as declining. North Fulton was hit a lot harder by the economic tsunami than we all think. We can run our own system. I look forward to that day as long as we can be compensated for the money we’ve spent to build up their schools. My estimations were well over $2B in property in 2005.
Jamesr1991
April 23rd, 2010
2:40 pm
Enter your comments here
Jamesr1991
April 23rd, 2010
2:42 pm
The north Fulton schools are not alike in design. the number of rooms may be but they are totally different. Visit Google Earth or Bing Maps to see for yourself.
We don’t want any part of the city of Atlanta and its schools.
I would love to have a school district closer to me. I also want my money for all the property we’ve bought in what may become Milton County one day.
B. Killebrew
April 23rd, 2010
3:12 pm
Have they officially decided to call it Bethany Bend High School?
I do think that’s a good name for it.
fultonschoolsparent
April 23rd, 2010
7:54 pm
has anybody noticed that FCS is opening a south county elementary school that isn’t even needed next year as a way to keep south county happy? Ridiculous.
Not all N Fulton schools are palaces
April 24th, 2010
11:12 am
Visit North Springs, Chattahoochee, Centennial and Roswell and you won’t find Taj Mahals, but very basic, utilitarian buildings which, as others have noted, have only received relative tidbits of SPLOST monies (e.g. Centennial is (finally) getting their science labs and is still waiting to have a band room the size of the others.) Older schools in all parts of Fulton have dramatically different technology allocations, so don’t look so much at the north/south divide as the older/newer divide. These new schools have mounted LCD projectors in their classrooms, interactive white boards, flat-screen TVS, etc. At other (older) schools, teachers still have to share LCD projectors on carts and may have (no kidding), the 13″ TV/VCR combos in their classrooms for 32 students.
FedUp – the number of counties is limited in Georgia, not the number of school systems.
Not all N Fulton schools are palaces
April 24th, 2010
11:33 am
HB 1020, if passed by the Senate, would allow a referendum in November; voters could approve the use of eSPLOST dollars for educational maintenance and operations rather than just capital expenditures. Fulton could delay the construction of the Birmingham Hwy HS, and those funds could indeed be used to offset some of these instructional cuts in that case (assuming the referendum passed, of course).
Principal appointments
April 24th, 2010
1:23 pm
So apparently there are several routes – the job is posted and given to someone out of district (Sweet Apple), you post the job and go through the process of community input, interviews, etc. (Centennial?), you start the process and then appoint someone ( Renaissance, EPMS?), or you just appoint someone (Milton, Haynes Bridge). Seems they may have just given up posting the individual jobs, though, because now they just have generic principal for each level. There is an apparent “avalanche” of principal retirements…
Fulton County music teacher
April 24th, 2010
1:48 pm
REALITY is 100% on the money. Please refer to that comment.
I like this!
April 24th, 2010
2:57 pm
from “Reality”
These things need to happen (and in this order)…
1. State Law changed to allow teachers to have a real union.
2. Vote out the State republican politicans that are destroying education in GA.
3. Vote out and/or remove the school systems Board member. They did not properly manage funds and are forced to do these ridulous cut backs this year.
M George
April 24th, 2010
5:44 pm
Principal appointments…. so many great principals retiring. Maybe someone should ask why. the system is corrupt and broken. Does anyone know if other top level employees get perks like cars like they do in Fulton? They drive Lexus. Does this happen in Cobb?
MiltonMan
April 24th, 2010
6:06 pm
You clowns sound jealous. It is real easy – attend college; major in some high paying degree program & live in North Fulton. Hey we are trying to break away but the Atlanta & South Fulton morons don’t want a Milton County so we will instead get the most out of Fulton County. Our schools here are always in the top 10 because we expect that & will not settle for the garbage schools that are so prevalent in Atlanta & South Fulton.
high school parent
April 24th, 2010
6:18 pm
As a parent of two children in a high school in N. Fulton, I have to say that we do NOT need another new high school in our area. We did not need the new Johns Creek high but it was built anyway. And don’t even get me started on the Southern Plantation school a.k.a. Milton High School. My kids school was built to spec and we had to BEG the board to give us the science wing addition we so desperately needed. The board was trying to pull a fast one on us and divert the SPLOST money over to this new school site. We are cutting teachers and facing severe budget cuts and to spend the money on this new high school is morally wrong. We need the school board to get a clue.
high school parent
April 24th, 2010
6:20 pm
I have never heard of a principal around here getting a car. Where do you get this information?
M George
April 24th, 2010
6:25 pm
I wasn’t talking about principals with cars. I meant to ask if top central office people in Cobb get cars.
David S
April 24th, 2010
6:26 pm
Unaccountable government-run school system. The private sector only does this when it has enough money that is collected from voluntary payments or charitable contributions. Government always knows it can stick its gun in everyone’s face and get more money when it needs it.
And how would a completely private system of education be worse again?
David S
April 24th, 2010
6:29 pm
You can make the case for elimination of all government involvement in education with tons of facts, data about the marketplace and the like, but the best arguments are made in just reading the news about what the government has done with the money it has taken from the taxpayers and the results of its century or more of involvement.
Shannon, M.Div.
April 24th, 2010
6:52 pm
Maureen, you’ve been covering the ed beat long enough that you ought to have addressed whether or not this is done with SPLOST money upfront in the column!
oldtimer
April 24th, 2010
6:57 pm
As a retired teacher…I think the most important aspect to learning is great parents. Send a well-behaved, motivated child to me and I could teach with chalk, board, and old books. And, I would not even worry about the testing. My students always passed it.
@ Milton Man
April 24th, 2010
6:58 pm
@ Milton Man
Get off you high horse! North Fulton schools are not nearly as good as schools in the Midwest and other parts of the country. However, your children do perform well because the homes in which they are raised give them so many opportunities and advantages. The children born to families who cannot provide for them in the many ways that you do are all created equal in the eyes of God. They also deserve an excellent education!
Furthermore, barring birth defect, they are born with the same mental capacities as your children. Your child would not be such a stellar student if he/she were raised by an uneducated parent, or to a family struggling to make a better life for their child due to circumstances beyond their control. Your North Fulton teachers don’t have to be that great to teach your children. Many exceptional teachers are making great strides in many schools in Atlanta, but you turn your eyes, blinded by discrimination. Not just racial discrimination, but discrimination based upon your twisted sense of pride.
What have you done to make this world a better place for all? Have you considered fostering or mentoring a disadvantaged child? Do you care about the future your children will inherit? If the status quo continues in Georgia, you will soon enough become a minority and your children will be left to deal with the consequence of you ignorance.
Milton Man, You may be a great parent, but you are a lousy humanitarian!
Reality
April 24th, 2010
7:17 pm
@RJ
Okay, let me clearly spell it out for you since you seem to be unable to understand…..
Money means nothing. Big houses mean nothing. Give me, as a teacher, a student that is well behaved, follows the rules, has manners, and cares about education any day.
From ALL indications, those are not the traits found in South Fulton. I don’t give a rats a$$ if they are black, pink, yellow, purple, or blue.
From all indications those traits ARE found in North Fulton.
And, THEREIN lies the difference. When you have students that refuse to follow rules, don’t care about education, run wild in the halls, curse at teachers, are not respectful, etc. YOU NEED BARS IN THE SCHOOLS!
Reality
April 24th, 2010
7:19 pm
@RJ
Okay, let me spell if out for you…
Students need to follow rules, be respectful, do their work, care about education, and listen to teachers. These are the traits for a successfull school.
However, it is my understanding that these are NOT the traits found in South Fulton. Money means nothing. Big houses mean nothing. If the PARENTS haven’t taught their children basic manners, to be respectful of adults, and the importance of education, then….
MAYBE BARS ON THE SCHOOLS ARE A GOOD THING!
South Fulton Guy
April 24th, 2010
7:20 pm
Judge for yourself: http://www2.fultonschools.org/dept/capprog/High%20Schools/North%20Fulton%20HS/North%20Fulton%20HS.htm
Maureen Downey
April 24th, 2010
7:21 pm
Shannon, SPLOST is still tax dollars so I am not sure of your point. It is a dediciated funding stream to capital outlay, including apparently now artificial turf after the Cobb court ruling, but it doesn’t contradict my point that I prefer basic buildings and extraordinary teachers and instruction.
Maureen
disgusted
April 24th, 2010
7:28 pm
No one has been “minding the store”, which is why we are in this mess. At this point, no amount of marching or petitions can save us from the mess that we made. From the top to the bottom, everyone has a hand in this. From voters (or non-voters) to legislatures who frivously spend money. . .This is a bed that has been made but NOONE wants to sleep in it. The children will suffer just as the adults have been. And they say the recession is lifting. I beg to differ. Teachers have never been hit this hard and it is sad to see just how far they will go to cut corners in the name of saving. And why does everyone want to SAVE when they’re down to nothing?
disgusted
April 24th, 2010
7:32 pm
And the notion of the North wanting to split from the South shouldnt come as a surprise to anyone. It is, however, extremely sad and I concur with @miltonman wholeheartedly.
In addition, REALITY, I have found that $ doesn’t equal respect or having manners. I have worked with rich children in the “wonderful” city of Charleston who would do terrible things in class only to be given excuses by their parents as to why they would act that way. No reprimand, no apologies. nada.
I’ve seen plenty of rich kids, young and older, who have a mentality that they are owed the world and can act as they please without regard to others-especially those who don’t have what they do.
And the cylce continues. . .
bootney farnsworth
April 24th, 2010
8:03 pm
why should fulton not build its places?
every district and higher ed. is basically using this
crisis to promote its individual pork projects without
the “trivial” concerns of the faculty and staff.
the system is terminally broken.
Reality
April 24th, 2010
9:10 pm
@disgusted 7:32 PM
That has been my point all along in every post that I have made in this blog. RJ just hasn’t gotten the point. She continues to point out how wealthy the community is, but doesn’t understand that wealth does not equal civility and good parenting.
RJ
April 24th, 2010
9:37 pm
@Reality, you miss MY point. My grandmother lived in Buckhead, so my parents sent me to the school in her neighborhood. My highschool is located near multimillion dollar homes. My WHITE friends drove Mercedes, BMW’s, Porches, etc to school. Many of them also did major drugs. Their parents were never really around so they got away with murder. They had the money to buy whatever they wanted. So you see, I DO understand that wealth does not equal civility and good parenting. I base my statements on my life experiences, not mere opinion such as yourself.
The bars at Westlake were being used to trap students once the bell rang. These students aren’t thugs. They’re not BARBIE BANDITS that get away with a federal crime. They’re regular kids. What the school was doing was completely inappropriate. You have no idea how “South Fulton” kids behave because you don’t live in south Fulton. If you find this practice humane you are more ignorant than I thought.
Post what you will in response…I’m done.
Rainbow
April 24th, 2010
11:01 pm
The world would be a better place if all the races were mixed up… or humans were color blind!
Fulton County Observer
April 24th, 2010
11:32 pm
Maureen: Why not do a piece on what is really going on in Fulton County Schools instead of just blogging? When FCBOE Board members and higher up Executive Directors know that they are going to make the news, somehow or another, they seem to come up with the ethically correct way of doing things. Please find out about these appointments of principals, what “growth” data they used to build this new high school, and certainly why they refuse to change their motto?????
Lee
April 25th, 2010
6:49 am
I agree that many of the recently built schools appear to be ostentatious. Instead of spending $100,000 or so on an ornamental clock tower, I would prefer to build a few more classrooms.
My small, semi-rural school system has adopted the bad policy of building a new school and shutting down the old one. Why? Because they can get money for new schools but not for renovation. Add into the equation the fact that the school system only performs the most basic of maintenance on existing buildings, and you have a recipe for disposable schools. I.e., run it for 30 years and when it starts to fall apart, build a new one.
But hey, it’s only taxpayer money.
adam
April 25th, 2010
8:50 am
Palaces? Perhaps the AJC should be run in a barn instead of a nice office complex on marrietta street.
MiltonMan
April 25th, 2010
8:56 am
Funny to see all of these uneducated South Fulton & Atlanta clowns screaming how racists North Fulton is. The only racism coming out of Fulton is in South Fulton & Atlanta:
Fulton County sued for discrimination against white librarians
The Fulton County Commission Chair plays the race card along with John Lewis & Shirley “Temple” Franklin
etc. etc.
Care to discuss more or are you clowns so stupid to believe that only whites are racists???
@ Milton Man
April 25th, 2010
10:40 am
Milton Man,
Re-read my post.. April 24th, 2010 6:58 pm.
I am white and a doctor’s daughter. I live in North Gwinnett. I grew up with all of the advantages your children receive and more. I believe all children can learn, but it is not so easy to climb out of the hole when many children do not have the home, financial support, and “leg up” your children do not appreciate. With that being said, I look at the whole picture. Daniel Pink calls this kind of thinking “Symphony.” It is a “mind” which is will be necessary to succeed in the future. Many educated / wealthy parents seek out diversity and community service in all forms to better educate and prepare their children for the future.
I ask you once again,…
“What have you done to make this world a better place for all? Have you considered fostering or mentoring a disadvantaged child? Do you care about the future your children will inherit? If the status quo continues in Georgia, you will soon enough become a minority and your children will be left to deal with the consequence of you ignorance. Milton Man, You may be a great parent, but you are a lousy humanitarian!”
Milton Man, The future belongs to those who can think globally. Your own children will eventually suffer because of your narrow minded view of the world. How sad!
@ Milton Man
April 25th, 2010
10:44 am
Milton Man,
Forgot to add… I hold a Master’s Degree and enough additional hours to equal a PHD from a real university, not those online schools most of Georgia’s teachers and administrators hold!
@ Milton Man
April 25th, 2010
11:06 am
Filter!
Teacher
April 25th, 2010
12:34 pm
My only question regarding these new projects is about the technology in the classroom. I teach in a county with the best technology around…our school facilities could use a makeover, but our classrooms are packed with vital resources. I’ve spoken with several Fulton teachers that still do not have the most basic technology and are in the BEST schools in the county! How do the parents allow this to happen? I just can’t imagine watching the creation of another beautiful school building knowing that the classrooms inside will still be inadequate compared to the county next door. Is this not an issue for parents in Fulton County?
bootney farnsworth
April 25th, 2010
12:46 pm
@teacher,
parents don’t “allow” this crap to happen any more than
we do. the system is fatally flawed. where I am the
faculty/staff raised holy hell against many initiatives
proposed & inflicted upon us.
but they went thru anyways.
when the system is so fatally flawed, it doesn’t care what
or how anyone outside the partronage elite thinks or wants.
@ Milton Man
April 25th, 2010
12:48 pm
Maureen, I’m still in the filter!
Not all palaces
April 25th, 2010
2:45 pm
@ Teacher: See post 4/24 11:12 am which addresses exactly what you’re saying. The response I’ve heard to this question is that educational specifications (”ed specs”) are updated but aren’t retroactively applied to older buildings. This results in significant disparities between schools in the same town, much less the same system and, no, it doesn’t seem reasonable…(Of course, older high schools ARE getting expanded band rooms, but that seemed to be something of an OSHA issue; wonder if the science labs were the same?)
Reality
April 25th, 2010
3:20 pm
@RJ
So then, the bars were totally unnecessary? I seriously doubt that south fulton people would pay for those bars unless those kids needed them.
If parents taught their kids properly, and if kids did what they were supposed to do, then bars would not be needed.
End of story.
bootney farnsworth
April 25th, 2010
3:48 pm
@-@Milton Man
your defintion of what others do to make a “better world” has absolutley
nothing to do with the fact Fulton spends more than it brings in, and much of it on stupid social programs financed by the north 1/2 to benefit the south 1/2.
and attacking the poster is not even a novel way to try to hide your
lock of intelligent responses. classic liberal attack pattern Omega 1
and as for your claim of educational superiorty: – again, classic liberal attack pattern Omega 2 – once you actually get around to earning that Ph.D., let somebody know. the world is full of ABDs,
most too lazy or privledged to get around to completeing the task.
the future belongs to those who do the work to seize it. those who
“think globally” -classic liberal attack pattern Oemga 3 -will indeed have a place, and a special title.
we call them employees.
bootney farnsworth
April 25th, 2010
3:50 pm
exactly what did Milton Man say that was incorrect?
not politically incorrect – factually incorrect.
bootney farnsworth
April 25th, 2010
3:55 pm
“Many educated / wealthy parents seek out diversity and community service in all forms to better educate and prepare their children for the future.”
proof?
most wealthy folks work like hell to avoid the liberal “diversity” in all its forms.