Teachers: No merit to merit pay arguments

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Well written and thought provoking article! What I like is that while also pointing out the challenges with implementing merit pay the article also offered possible solutions to the overall teacher compensation discussion.

I will say that I am not sure the ‘optimum’ compensation model exists, not just for teachers but for any profession. I know many people have a concern with “just because you get an advanced degree, you get a raise without quantifying if that degree impacts student performance”. At the same time this did provide a way for teachers to make money, where as a profession, the opportunities are somewhat limited outside of the fixed salary schedule.

I wouldn’t mind see something where student growth played a part in determining increases. I acknowledge that high achievers will not have as much measurable growth year over year (unless we removed caps on what the content could be) than some students but there has to be a way we could come up with a reasonable alternative.

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“First, most educational research argues that testing does not measure student achievement, progress, or even potential. ”

If testing doesn’t measure student achievement, why do teachers give tests? Teachers were using tests to evaluate student achievement long before standardized tests or NCLB came along. Do Ms. Kohanim and Ms. Ulrich really believe that all those teachers have been giving classroom tests and quizzes in a perverse effort to simply demoralize their students? The contention that tests don’t measure student achievement is patently absurd. They are not the only measure of achievement, and a poorly written test is a poor measure of achievement, but to pretend that test results have give no indication of achievement is disingenuous. How many of us would feel comfortable entrusting our health to a physician who failed the licensing exams? While passing the exam doesn’t ensure us that our doctor is competent, it does tell us that s/he has demonstrated mastery of the basics of their field. Whether or not test results should be linked to teacher pay is a worthwhile discussion, but the contention that tests do no measure achievement is ridiculous, and I question the motives of anyone making such an absurd argument.

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There are two organizations that have sent over 10,000 emails to legislators in the past week telling them exactly what Jordan and Ashley have said: SB 386 is not fair and sustainable. One of those organizations is Teachers Against Merit Pay at http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=299584138908&ref=ts . The other is GEA at gaedalliance.org .

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How will Georgia measure student growth? You can’t measure it with the current tests in place, unless the ITBS is given in all grades. Even then, the test would need to be given at the beginning and the end of the year.

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In my title I school, already EIP classrooms are not teaching science or social studies curricula, just intense focus on CRCT skills, reading and math. How soon until all teachers are just drilling for the test? Our principals direct the specialists to “teach content” within our areas. What has happened to teaching the arts for the sake of arts education? what has happened to whole child learning? A nation of students well trained in how to take a standardized test will be the result of pay for performance!

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The statistics involved in this is beyond reality. In order for all teachers to be on an equal playing field, every single class will have to be tracked and documented for the beginning ability of all students, the movement of students (when did kids enter the class), how many ESOL or special needs kids and where are they on the skill level, absences of students (because it has been researched and proven that school attendance is more a factor of school success than intelligence – or will teachers also be held accountable for the number of days their students are absent ), and dozens of other items. To ensure equality in merit pay the data needed would be beyond the ability of a school system to deal with. Of course, we’re all fairly certain that the state wouldn’t bother to collect this amount of data – it would be cost prohibitive – which means that teachers are going to end up being evaluated on criteria that they have no control over. The only facts involved in the bill is that it is an ill-thought out response to a grab for federal bucks (should we even mention here that according to the U.S. Constitution federal government has no business in education) and an attempt to save paying teachers with advanced degrees larger salaries. Why pay a teacher $70,000 a year for a masters or specialist degree when they can pay someone with a BA or BS half that amount? Looking at Georgia’s education budget cuts over the last 6-8 years shows a pretty clear picture of where our lawmakers place the education of our young people. However, when all is said and done I will be happy to support merit pay for our teachers just as soon as the governor and his cabinet, the school superintendents, and the boards of education are placed on one as well.

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Great article Ladies…..

For starters, the state could honor National Board Certification, which is a nationally normed standard used to gauge teacher quality. Systems could also institute a comprehensive review: that is, having feedback from fellow teachers, community members, as well as students.

Now, if you could just take the above and remove all the “Political Correctness” and other nonsense (including “Race Bias” from reviews) then it might work; however, me thinks that anything done along these lines would be “subjective” at best and still would not give a good picture of the person being reviewed. How ’bout just teaching the class, give tests once a week and a final at the end of the term……those that pass, pass……those that don’t, fail…..I would think that approach would certainly give the teacher a great incentive to actually teach and to help those in need of additional help…….or is this approach too simple? Teachers have to be held accountable just as most everyone holding a position at a private company…….there has to be a measure of effectiveness……passing/failing interim tests and finals seem logical to me…..of course, I’m just a dumb high school graduate and I know nothing.

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If I’ve already said it, why hasn’t it been posted?

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There is already a mechanism in place to ensure that students who aren’t in a teacher’s classroom for the Full Academic Year are not counted for AYP. FAY doesn’t count any student for AYP who wasn’t enrolled on both the Fall and Spring FTE count day. If they weren’t there those days, they don’t count for the academic achievement portion of AYP for schools. This would be a fair way to counter the argument about transient students. I also think that PE and Art and Music could easily create performance measures that were locally controlled but outlined by a state process that would demonstrate growth over time. I think that local districts should be given an outline on how to measure growth, but not have to really on a state created/state administered exam (CRCT, EOCT, etc.) to measure growth. Of course, that causes districts to need to share information, processes, and assessment ideas. It could happen…

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When I worked in the private sector, the company recognized the value of continuing education, and would pay for it. Education required to maintain job skills was paid in full, and education designed to improve job skills was sometimes paid in full and sometimes in large part.

Contrast this with the education sector, which requires employees to pay out of pocket even for the skills to maintain their certification.

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Jordan, Ashley (and Maureen):
Thanks for starting this important discussion.
Any teacher or principal who studies page 100 of Georgia’s Race to the Top Grant Application will see what our Governor has planned for us. SB386 is just Sonny’s mini-me version of RTTT.

The designers of the state and federal versions of these merit pay plans haven’t done their homework. At the very least, they have ignored some very strong research that is well documented in Daniel Pink’s latest work, Drive: The Surprising Truth about What Motivates Us. Motivation 2.0 (the Carrot or Stick approach) appears to work well with simple manual tasks like punching out widgets on the assembly line, but it doesn’t work well with more complex tasks like designing a new widget. (Teaching or leading a school is a very complex task.) Pink explains the short-term and long-term pitfalls of the rewards and consequences approach and actually shows us a better way with his Motivation 3.0. There are lessons in his work for politicians and teachers.

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This is a very well written letter and I too agree that merit pay would be detrimental to our profession and to the children we teach. I would like to know how this merit pay program (and that voucher bill) will be fully funded statewide admist the current economic climate? How are we teachers expected to do our jobs the best way we can when Purdue and them are cutting everything, yet expecting us to raise student achievement?

It’s time for teachers to take a stand for their profession and their students. I am a firm believer that one will do what is allowed. If the status quo is allowed to continue doing what they are doing, then this mess will continue. It is time for all educators and supporters to take a stand; “this state is a non-unionized state” is a mere excuse. Write to your senators. Let’s have more protests. Something…Waiting for the next election cycle may be too late; the time is NOW!

There is strength in numbers. But if the numbers are not there, fired up and fed up, then we become part of the problem. Apparently, they are not taking us seriously now.

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For starters, the state could honor National Board Certification, which is a nationally normed standard used to gauge teacher quality. Systems could also institute a comprehensive review: that is, having feedback from fellow teachers, community members, as well as students.

Now, if you could just take the above and remove all the “Political Correctness” and other nonsense (including “Race Bias” from reviews) then it might work; however, me thinks that anything done along these lines would be “subjective” at best and still would not give a good picture of the person being reviewed. How ’bout just teaching the class, give tests once a week and a final at the end of the term……those that pass, pass……those that don’t, fail…..I would think that approach would certainly give the teacher a great incentive to actually teach and to help those in need of additional help…….or is this approach too simple? Teachers have to be held accountable just as most everyone holding a position at a private company…….there has to be a measure of effectiveness……passing/failing interim tests and finals seem logical to me…..of course, I’m just a dumb high school graduate and I know nothing.

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“If a student enters my ninth grade classroom at a fourth grade reading level…”

Ahhh, there’s the rub. How many times have I read a similar statement on this blog? And when I read that comment, I would venture to say that the vast majority of the time, it is because one or more teachers in the previous grades did not do their job.

And yet those same teachers are getting their step up raises simply because they’ve logged another year in the system. They are receiving raises because they’ve obtained advanced degrees from some on-line diploma mill.

Still, no one asks the question “Do we really need to pay premium wages for PE teachers with Phd’s?”

We taxpayers are footing the bill, but our children are paying for it…..

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Here are the numbers Mo’ Freddie. Teachers have made the choice to make PAGE the largest educational organization in this state. And what did mighty PAGE do when teachers were furloughed?

Mighty PAGE took to the pages of the AJC and suggested that teachers need to act more professionally. You have administrative bloat that has spiraled out of control for years, and PAGE is silent, but when teachers’ pay is cut after they signed their contracts, mighty PAGE takes to this paper and says teachers need to act more professionally?

And teachers kept their membership in PAGE? And teachers complain that their voices aren’t being heard and taken seriously?

As poorly as teachers are being treated these days, maybe it’s time for teachers to look at themselves, and who they choose to represent their concerns, and ask themselves if they aren’t being active co-creators in their own misery?

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PAGE hasn’t done a lot, but what has GAE done?

For that matter, what have AFT and MACE done? And are these options available statewide?

What’s left?

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I would need to see more information about how a teacher’s added value is going to be formulated. I am unable to see how this can be achieved without giving tests at the 9, 18, and 27 week marks and this will ultimately cost tax payers more money. Is it worth the hassle? Tennessee tried a similar model and it also had mixed results- 3 percent increase in math scores and no significant changes in reading. With research available that discredits this process, why are we so hell bent on adopting what has proven to be ineffective in every state where merit pay scales have been implemented? At this point, any candidate for the governorship who endorses this plan will not have my vote. It will be the deciding factor for me at the polls. This is absolute garbage. Can they provide any research that “merits” it’s full scale implementation? What research shows that it has made a difference for students- anywhere? Pure folly.

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GAE hasn’t been much better, if at all. Even in a system notorious for administrative bloat, DeKalb County, ODE the DeKalb County branch of GAE said on their website they oppose any cuts in administration, even as teachers’ retirement benefits were being reduced.

How do teachers in DeKalb not conclude that ODE made it a higher priority to protect administrative bloat, in a system notorious for it, than they did to protect teachers from having pay and benefits cut?

As bad as teachers are being treated in Georgia, and as sorry as you can feel for them concerning this treatment, it may be time for teachers to look at themselves and see if they aren’t being co-creators in their own mistreatment, by who they let choose to speak for their concerns.

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I am a retired educator who earned an EdS during my career. I am disturbed that this article, filled with poorly constructed sentences and rambling discourse, was written by college-educated individuals who are also educators.

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@ Numbers, Numbers:

In my opinion, coming from an unionized state, none of the teacher associations here in Georgia is doing enough to fire up their members to take a stand. Most teachers who are members pay their membership for so-called legal protection. But I do agree with you on this; teachers are a HUGE part of the problem for allowing this to go on for so long. Those individuals who know what need to be done will just leave the profession if nothing worthwhile is done. I may be in that number.

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Great article, thanks for posting. Another thing to question in relation to this “merit pay” proposal is, how will Special Education teachers be evaluated differently? Many Special Education students have testing accommodations because of their disabilities during the school year, but don’t perform well on standardized tests like the CRCT because the accommodations cannot be implemented as effectively on a standardized test? With the “inclusive” classroom being strongly pushed, there are more and more Special Education “collaborative/interrelated” teachers than ever before. Our students do not test as well..we worry, will this put us on the bottom of the pay totem pole?

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The conclusions of this article are very interesting:

http://www.nctq.org/nctq/images/nctq_io.pdf

Especially when they are contrasted with the views of teachers that are against merit pay.

(BTW- isn’t it just possible Mrs. Downey is busy on this beautiful Sunday and unable to free posts from the blog monster? Probably not a huge conspiracy…)

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@ Happy Teacher

Given the fact that you have taught for less than 3 years and not all at the same school, I respect the fact that you are still naive things in the education biz. When you’ve been teaching long enough to have been screwed over by the state of Georgia (and you will be), I have a feeling that you won’t be so quick to trust that politicians will stand by their word.

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Ur rite disturbia we dont need to wory about litle detals
I am concerned about the “state of education” in Georgia and the United States.
I devoted 31years to a profession I loved and am still closely tied to by family and friends.
No need for clever comebacks – it is serious business.

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Happy teacher, you may want to look at what was pulled out as a stand alone quote on the bottom of page 10 of the document you provided us.

The teacher attributes that matter the most are the hardest to measure.

Pretty much sums up why teachers are resisting this; this and the fact that the General Assembly has earned zero trust among teachers in the last few years.

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Sorry – the Filter Monster ate up my previous post. This is a repost:

A recent study by the Rand Corporation stated the following:

“Our results suggest serious challenges to using standardized test scores to measure teacher performance as part of a merit pay system. Ideally, a system would be transparent and easy to understand, since this would help policy makers and teachers to understand what exactly is
needed to earn a bonus award. A system must also isolate the contributions of each teacher from the prior academic achievement of students assigned to each class.

Policy makers should be wary of adapting performance measures without a thorough understanding of the properties of a particular measure. Errors in defining teacher merit will distort the incentive effects of
bonuses and may distort the effort of teachers in promoting student learning.

Performance measures should be based on multiple years of data on students and teachers. Single‐year measures of teacher performance are highly volatile given the relatively small numbers of students taught by a teacher in a given year and the idiosyncrasies of student
assignments.

Policymakers should monitor the bonus awards and examine patterns of awards across teachers and schools. While high‐ or low‐quality teachers might be disproportionately assigned to some grades, subjects, or schools, strong patterns in the data may also suggest that the performance measure is biased. For example, suppose that bonus incidence is higher for suburban schools than for central city schools. This finding might indicate that teaching performance is truly
better at the suburban schools, but the finding might alternatively indicate that the measure of teacher performance is correlated with prior class achievement.

Policymakers should be careful to adopt performance measures with good statistical properties, but they should also be proactive in searching out and resolving potential problems with the measure that is adopted. Policymakers should also monitor the trends in student achievement scores overall and for various student groups (e.g., low‐ versus high‐proficiency students). A key benchmark for the merit pay reform is whether overall achievement levels rise with the implementation of a merit pay system. Disproportionate changes for some groups relative to others may indicate that the teacher reward system is placing undue emphasis in improvements for some segments of
students.

Teacher performance should be based on growth in student achievement and not on the proficiency level of students in a teacher’s class. Teachers who are assigned students with high prior achievement are much more likely to have high end‐of‐year proficiency scores than are
teachers who are assigned students with low prior achievement. Simple proficiency measures will distort the contribution of an individual teacher to student learning and provide undue “merit” rewards for teachers who are assigned high proficiency students.

Our primary analysis has focused on measuring teacher performance using standardized test scores. However, many performance‐related pay systems, including MAP, also include subjective evaluation of teacher performance in the award calculation. The literature on subjective evaluations suggests that these evaluations will be compressed, especially when the evaluations are part of a merit pay system. As a result, the evaluations may implicitly carry a small weight as compared with test‐based performance measures and play little role in how
bonuses are awarded. Districts should monitor evaluations to assess their effectiveness and role in the merit awards. If evaluations do uncover important differences among teachers, the ranking system should be adjusted to assure that these evaluations are weighted appropriately.
More research is needed on how classroom evaluations from principals and other observers correspond with performance measures based on student achievement results. Little is known about what specific classroom practices and strategies translate into test score outcomes.
Similarly, teacher performance measures, like those used in a merit pay plan, might be related some teacher preparation courses or professional development programs.

A better understanding of what factors contribute to better classroom success would help districts to hire and train better teachers and to encourage more effective classroom practices.

What are the prospects for merit pay? The traditional compensation schedule links teacher pay to educational background and experience—two factors that have weak to nonexistent relationships with classroom success. It is true that no merit pay system will meet all the
challenges and develop a perfect measure of teacher performance. The key issue is whether the incentive and sorting effects of an admittedly imperfect merit pay system can improve the quality of the teacher workforce. We believe that piloting such systems and carefully
monitoring their results is a valuable exercise.

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Happy Teacher, you may believe it, but why should teachers in general believe it? What is the harm in putting this proposal by a lame duck governor aside for the moment, at least until we have restored the integrity back to the testing process, instead of just asking teachers to believe it will be restored?

You’re asking a lot of teachers to believe, when most of these teachers believed last summer that they were going to get paid for 190 days of work this year.

Trust matters, and so far the General Assembly hasn’t earned it.

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In a vacuum, I completely agree Explain, but the fact is that the dollars are out there now. I feel we would be remiss to pass on this opportunity, as imperfect as the timing is.

…And then we need to work our tails off to make sure that we elect leaders that can help restore the trust.

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Happy Teacher, your report strongly suggests that “the best and the brightest” make the best teachers. What is Georgia doing to attract and retain “the best and the brightest” other than suggesting an inchoate pay-for-performance plan which might be implemented at some point in the future?

Your report also suggests that National Board Certified Teachers in large part have the qualities which are attributed to effective teachers, but our General Assembly has decided to disagree. Does this give you faith in the discernment of the General Assembly?

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ST671 – I certainly wish we were doing more, but we do have the highest starting pay for teachers in the Southeast, which is a nominal start. Pay for performance is a sensible next step, in my opinion.

I also agree that what has happened with NBCT is terrible, but I like to believe that we will not see such economic conditions again for several generations. I am often dumbfounded by the actions of the Assembly, but I do recognize the uniqueness of the circumstance they currently find themselves in when designing a budget.

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Very well written. I agree completely. If tis legislation was to pass, then there would not be any teachers to teach in low SES school systems, because who would want to teach where they know their salary is going to suffer. How does this help those students at all? As a student teacher I am already disappointed in the way the curriculum seems to have started to backslide since I was in school ten years ago. Students seem to have trouble following directions at a pace above super slow sometimes, much less retaining teach to the test material only.

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I’d just like to point out that even with the PTA association protesting down at the capitol, the GAE assembly/protest at the capitol, visits from superintendents and principals, the General Assembly has at best just humored these visits while still turning a blind eye to education funding despite alternatives out there. I would be highly ashamed to be a legislator in the General Assembly and have any connection with Sonny Perdue’s administration. Georgia is not willing to do anything to prioritize education in the face of tax cuts to lure businesses down here. Unfortunately, the schools will end up as a wasteland of mismanagement and will detract from businesses.

You don’t think people from other states read this blog? While I appreciate the effort of PAGE to set up a protest day (on a day that teachers would have to take a personal day, no less) – what is it going to accomplish when every other visit by educational professionals has been virtually ignored? The best things Georgia teachers can do is get the heck out of dodge while they can.

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If you want a next, best, sensible step Happy Teacher try these. Restore discipline to the schools by empowering teachers to remove chronically disruptive students who destroy the learning environment. In other words, afford teachers the same authority you would other professionals who get paid based upon the performance of the people they manage.

Restore some much needed checks and balances by having an appeals process for teachers who have been victims of misuse of the evaluation instrument, and include in that appeals process the opportunity for teachers to be observed by a neutral party.

Restore much needed checks and balances by having an administrator’s evaluation based in part on ratings from teachers; something no evaluator should mind if they are doing their job correctly.

Take these next, sensible steps, and you have built the trust of teachers and made a legitimate case for why they should embrace a merit pay that is truly based on merit, not based on the whims of an administrator, or based on the Russian Roulette of being compared to a school that cheats.

Those are sensible steps that build trust. Pay For What We Can’t Even Define Yet As Performance, You’ll Just Have To Trust Us On This One is anything but a sensible step.

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@ really– you are obviously not a teacher and way to contradict yourself in your own statement. Kudos to you. Tests made by teacher for their students assesses what information their students have reatined based on the material that they cover. That is why tests have been used for years. Standardized tests grade on a state level wiping out all creativity. They do not take the ELL students in to account, or the IEP or EIP students in to account. They don’t know the students based on their ability in your classroom. How can legislation pay teachers based on test scores and observations that may only happen twice a year?

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@ at this point in the game, you appreciate the efforts of an organization, PAGE, who suggested to teachers in the AJC that their response to being furloughed should be that THEY needed to be more professional?

Just what exactly do you appreciate about them?

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So you say Happy Teacher. That’s not a knock on you. What it’s a knock on, can anybody, including the people drafting this legislation, give a clear and defined picture on how exactly the evaluation of administrators by staff will specifically translate into some accountability for those administrators?

If 90% of a staff give an administrator the lowest ratings possible, how will that tangibly translate into some accountability for that administrator? Conversely, if an administrator takes on the challenge of a low performing school, and does not performing an eraser miracle the first year, but does earn the respect of staff while the school makes gains, will that administrator be justly rewarded?

Most of all, can even the people writing this legislation answer these questions, and if not, how can we trust them that this is goo legislation?

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I will go on record stating that I do not support GAE or PAGE. I do not feel that they have done any strong lobbying on behalf of teachers, most likely because they represent administrators as well. Teachers in Georgia do not have any collective voice whatsoever. Keep in mind that most teachers are members of either of these organizations because they provide liability insurance for them. In fact, I am in the process of leaving GAE for PAGE for the simple reason of finances. GAE dues are significantly higher than PAGE’s, and when the furloughs are happening, does GAE help teachers with any concessions toward their dues? nope. I’d rather pay less for not getting full support than more. Check out their websites – all you will see is they are “monitoring” the situation. They haven’t polled any of their members to get a factual sample of how teachers feel about merit pay. Wouldn’t that be some strong evidence? Oh, but wait – the General Assembly would ignore it anyway.

I know I sound bitter – I fully believe that schools are trying to do their best in this horrible situation, but it’s the state government that is and has created this situation. When you have people that are professionals involved and protesting and giving you information about how these budget cuts will legitimately hurt students and the assembly chooses to ignore it, the writing is on the wall. It’s like going to an accountant and having them give you advice when you know nothing about being one and then saying, “that’s nice, but I’ll just take my own advice”. It’s bad. Shame on the General Assembly!

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@ At this point in the game, teachers are protected by sovereign immunity law. PAGE doesn’t tell you this, because they want to use as one of their selling points the liability insurance.

Before you join PAGE because of the liability insurance, you might want to ask yourself if you would pay the same amount of money if someone tried to sell you asteroid insurance, because you’re just as likely to need one as the other.

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@Explain – check for a response after the filter lets it go.

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I’ll try to check it ScienceTeacher671, but I’m afraid I’ll miss the Olympics if I wait on the blog monster.

No, not the big hockey game today, the Opening Ceremonies of the London Games of 2012 LOL

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can anyone name one legislator that is opposed to merit pay? the budget cuts to education? seriously, I am curious . . .I’ve been told that they are getting annoyed with phone calls and emails.

How about every teacher in the state sends an apple a day to their representatives? You can delete an email, but it’s hard to delete apples . . .

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So here is my question: Does the “bonus” or “step” in pay earned from one year of “proven merit” remain until the next step is achieved? If a teacher proves their “worth” with one group of students but fails to do so in the next, does the pay remain the same or do they lose that “merit bonus”? Has anyone seen that addressed?

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I like ponies.

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Increase should come with performance. I’ve seen teachers go to school to get advance degrees so that can get higher pay. Although there’s nothing wrong with that, the performance should be taken into consideration also.

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We wouldn’t need any of this discussion if public school teachers and educrats would allow parents to choose schools and teachers for their children. Customers demand great service, captive serfs have no incentive to care because they know that nothing they do will change the teacher or the school. Right now, educrats only allow captive serfs. Give parents vouchers, then let principals set pay. Johnny can’t read because the teacher gets paid whether Johnny can read or not.

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I believe it is time for all politicians, parents and administrators to spend time in today’s classroom and really see the challenges teachers incur daily. I believe most teachers want to see their students succeed; however, because of all of the input from those who do not have to handle student behavior, home problems, paperwork, bus duty, lunch duty, RTI meetings for students and parents who are not doing their parts, and I can go on and on. Bottom line is the people hurt by all of this is of course our students. Before legislators make a change to our already minimum pay, they really need to consider who will be hurt the most.

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The teacher’s union is a very effective and well organized propaganda machine. I see comments previous to mine were moslty by teachers or their relatives and friends. This is called “smothering” any opposition to their comments. One more time. Presently, a teacher determines the pace of covering classroom material. This means while one teacher covers ten chapters, another may only cover two. Would you want your cchild in the class that covers two chapters. I don’t. Paying for performance encourages all teachers to cover as much material as possible. Need I say more!

P.S. AJC. Don’t let the teachers write all of the editorials and submitting all the comments.

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@Make it Better, have you ever thought that the fact that Johnny can’t read is because Johnny’s mama has moved him six times in two years as she goes from boyfriend to boyfriend? Or that Johnny doesn’t get adequate nutrition while at home, so the only decent food he gets is school food? Or the fact that Johnny’s home may not have a single book in it other than mama’s boyfriend’s porn? Or that Johnny may be physically or sexually abused by the “uncles” that mama brings home? Teachers are called on to do a lot (and I expected most of it when I signed up to be a teacher), but we cannot cure all of society’s ills until ALL parents make their kids a priority and take an active role in their education. I can give Johnny a safe, nuturing environment while he’s at school, and I’ll do my best to teach him to read, but, for some kids, the hurdles are far bigger than we can even imagine.

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Waldo, (1) there are no teacher’s unions in Georgia, and as noted above, the organizations we do have are less than effective. (2) The teacher no longer determines the pace of covering classroom material, state curriculum guides and local curriculum coordinators do. Teachers must proceed whether or not students have mastered the material. (3) AJC doesn’t pick who comments on the blog; commenters are self-selected. Apparently teachers and their relatives and friends are the main ones interested in education in Georgia.

Next comment?

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Lee, until we expect and demand MASTERY of basic skills at each grade level prior to being promoted, we will still have these same problems. It seems to me the gap has gotten wider between those on grade level and those who are not. I see teachers working much harder, dealing with many more problems, than we did 40 years ago, yet some students being more seriously impaired in their achievement. The difference I see is in the input. Too many children come from homes where they are not valued, not to mention the whole idea of “education” and “civil behavior”. We have too many kids whose parents are drug addicted (ask me how much I can smell when they come in the door. It sticks to their clothes, their backpacks. I guess their parents toke on the way to school or before breakfast), whose parents are so in search of self they subject their kids to multiple “daddies” before they are 5, who are being raised by grandparents or great-grands or aunts because mom and dad don’t want the responsibility, or are in jail, or have just disappeared.

While the kids start school with more “things”, they are far poorer than they were in 1973. I teach in a rural, Appalachian area that has changed in many ways, many of them bad, in the intervening years.

Children need PARENTS first and foremost. Without the security and discipline of parenting, they come to school carrying burdens that interfere with their formal education from the start. No teacher, no matter how good, can ameliorate years of the neglect suffered by a chained dog.

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I feel that the real answer lies somewhere between the two columns.

1) I think that basing pay solely on test scores is perhaps not comprehensive enough….but I don’t think tests lie either. An annual physical can’t give you a full picture of someone’s health, it CAN still give you some major indicators to look at.

2) BUT…I think student learning MUST be a significant part of a teacher’s evaluation, no matter how it’s measured.

3) We should reward teachers who pursue higher degrees and prof. development…..but there are far too many diploma mills springing up that will give a master’s degree to anybody who pays the tuition. We need a system of rigorous accreditation for teacher training programs.

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HSMT… Education is NOT a business. That’s an ignorant argument that folks constantly try to make, but it doesn’t hold water. In the business world, a manager has some say in who gets hired to work under him/her. Teachers take who they are given, and do their best with what they have. In the business world, if you have people who are not contributing or pulling their share of the weight, the manager has the option to fire them. The last time I checked, teachers weren’t allowed to fire their students and replace them with harder workers.
Merit pay is a way for the pathetic government of this state to reduce teacher pay, based solely on things that are beyond the control of any teacher. It’s despicable and it’s stupid. Kinda like our governor.

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I loved the article – I hate the legislatures ideas. All of the persons that say that it will be the luck of the draw are on the ball. Administrators have and are still stabbing teachers in the back. Also, their fellow teachers sometimes do it also. I went through all the years with graduation tests in all their forms and all the – your kids did great one year – to what did you not do other years? The factor here that is not addressed by the Governor’s ideas is the student. Some students simply do not come to school prepared to learn or wanting to learn. After you have had a few threaten to kill you – pull a switchblade on you ( first year!) or slam a door so hard the glass breaks – you will know too – Happy Teacher.

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One Tired American Teacher – okay, so PAGE offered opportunities THEN . . what about NOW? check their website – they are “monitoring” the furlough situation. They are “talking” to responsible parties. WHERE IS THE ACTION?????

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As a parent/PTA member/sub in my local school district, I have to say that I find the opinions of most of the teachers on this blog embarrassing. Let me see if I’ve got all this straight:

1. Administrators/legislators are all good-for-nothing back-stabbers who have it out for teachers.
2. Parents are horribly negligent, if not downright drug addicts.
3. Students are lazy (at best), or violent criminals (at worst).
4. Standardized tests are irresponsible, no matter what.
5. Teachers are above sharing the pain in the current economic crisis.

Did I get it all? Why would you even do the job is what I ask.

I really hope my kids(who have mostly had wonderful teachers) do not run across the bloggers here. I am afraid they will be judged before walking in the door and never be held to the type of expectations that we have for them.

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Involved asked, “Why would you even do the job is what I ask.” Let me try to answer it.

I teach because I want to be a positive role model for my students. I teach in a high poverty school, and you could not imagine some of the homes my kids come from. That being said, every child deserves the chance to learn. Where the trouble comes is when education is placed in the hands of legislators and “educrats”. The teachers you see posting here are in the trenches. They often get to school early, stay late, and give 110% to their children every day, all while being told “Here’s what you have to teach, here’s how you have to teach it, here’s the script you have to use, and every child will be average or above by 2014.” Not every child will be working on grade level by 2014. It’s not that the expectations aren’t there, it’s just a fact of life. We don’t live in Lake Wobegon where everyone’s above average. There ARE students and parents who don’t care. There are administrators who are power hungry. It’s another fact of life. I’m glad that doesn’t happen in your school, but there are places where it does happen. We’re not making these stories up so someone will feel sorry for us.

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Involved, don’t go overboard.

There are SOME administrators who cannot be trusted to have the best interests of their teachers or students at heart. Not all, but some. You need look no further than the current cheating scandal to see proof of that.

SOME parents are negligent, SOME are abusive, SOME are drug addicts. It’s unfortunate, but it’s true. Those who teach gifted children, and those who teach in wealthy suburban areas perhaps see less of it than those who teach at-risk and lower SES students — which is not to say that it doesn’t also occur in higher SES areas or to brighter children, but children who are dealing with issues such as these often have a great deal of trouble focusing on schoolwork, and so they struggle academically.

SOME students are lazy, and SOME students are violent criminals. At last count, 3 of my former students were incarcerated for murder. Does that mean I haven’t also had some wonderful students who have grown up to be model citizens? Of course not, but do you think the criminals you read about in the paper were perfect children before they left school?

I see the need for some standardized testing, but I think one could make a good argument that the CRCT is irresponsible, and that it is used in an irresponsible manner.

Schools and teachers were “sharing the pain” even before the economic crisis. You’ve heard the old saw about doing more and more with less and less?

Why anyone would do the job is a good question, and I know many people who wouldn’t attempt to walk into a classroom full of children. There are probably good reasons why “the best and the brightest” often choose other careers, and there are probably good reasons why many new teachers leave the profession within the first five years. Can you think of some?

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The move to a “one size fits all” curriculum with the implementation of NCLB has not been realistic, but in fact harmful. Test scores have become the main focus versus the student becoming a successful and independent learner. My concern with merit pay is it will put more emphasis on tests by attempting to turn the teacher’s classroom into their sales territory. The student’s scores will become the sales product that will determine the teacher’s salary and/or bonus. Students are human beings not cold and inanimate products.

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What’s wrong Cobb taxpayer is that not even the people writing the bill can quantify what measured performance is.

What if someone told you Cobb taxpayer, we are going to redo the way we compute your property taxes, but we really can’t explain it to you, because we don’t even know ourselves, what new formula we will use.

In the same way you would no doubt have a problem with that, that is the basic problem with this bill.

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@ Cobb Taxpayer, “What’s so wrong with higher pay for greater responsibility and measured performance”?

Not a thing. That was the purpose of the National Board Certified Teacher program that the General Assembly says we can no longer afford.

Now they want to spend taxpayer dollars developing a new program, but they don’t know yet exactly how they are going to do it. From other pieces of legislation proposed this session, it appears that they want to redo the CRCT tests so that results can be compared from year to year to assess student growth for purposes of judging schools and teachers, rather than using these tests for the original stated purpose of judging whether or not students had mastered the Georgia curriculum.

Your guess is as good as mine, though, since no one has actually said how the program would work.

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I had to pay the performance-based certification when I began teaching in 1980. Part of the buy-in by the people administering the program was that teachers would get raised based on passing this difficult process. I have yet to see any of that promised money for passing it. I have also passed four different teacher certification tests in various fields, plus obtained a master’s and specialist degree to add to my journalism degree from the University of Georgia. Merit pay will not improve education, it will just make many leave the profession after a few years when the job market improves. Students will not have experienced teachers, but a steady stream of people in and out of the profession. Georgia will have to provide emergency certification for people, unqualified to teach and lacking the experience to really improve education in this state.

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You get more of whatever you measure. I don’t see any problem with developing good measures of teacher performance and reward those who do well. Teachers should be out in front helping legislatures create good plans. Instead, many of these comments reveal real fear in being tested. Teachers shouldn’t be afraid of competing and excelling. That is what they are preparing their students to do in the job market.

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@Political Mongrel – “If a teacher knows what’s been taught in his/her classroom and designs tests to match, why do you seem to feel that this is less reliable than some test made up by an anonymous figure…” Those are big “ifs”. “If” a teacher actually teaches the curriculum and not what they personally find most interesting. “If” a teacher designs a test that actually measures what they want to measure. “If” a teacher bothers to actually look at the work they assign. True story – my 5th grader suspected that her teacher never read the book reports she assigned each month. My daughter wrote her report about Ben Franklin. The first paragraph was exactly as one would expect. The rest of the report described how Ben Franklin joined Buck Rogers in becoming the first humans on Mars. The teacher never noticed that nonsense, and actually hung the report in the hallway for three weeks as an example of excellent work. (Nice neat hand writing and plenty long – must have been an excellent report. Why waste time actually reading it?) Teacher designed assessments would be sufficient “if” all teachers were good teachers but they aren’t. Some students may be lucky enough to never lose a year of their education to a teacher who collects a paycheck but doesn’t teach. Mine haven’t been that lucky. I want an outside assessment.

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I agree dmac…Wouldn’t it be great if the legislators would sit down with a group of the teachers from this blog as they consider the fine points of the legislation?

A guy can dream…

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Imagine that! More union employees making the case for not judging them on what they accomplish, rather begging you to keep sending them your tax dollars for showing up for work 180 days out of the year.

Maybe if teachers concentrated more on teaching their students instead of worrying about their degrees the kids might learn something. The teachers unions have made it so hard for people who have actual real world expertise from joining their ranks, least the student learn some hard truths about how things work outside of the classroom, that they are producing a product which is unable to cope or succeed once they leave the classroom, and placing a tremendous burden on the the private sector employers.

Remember most of the teachers have never been outside of the classroom themselves, so they know nothing of what is needed to succeed in life, rather they moan and groan about a lack of resources or they blame the raw materials given them. Those excuses don’t fly in the private sector and they shouldn’t be allowed in the teaching of our kids either.

Reward the good ones, get rid of the bad ones and quit making excuses.

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math 88

February 28th, 2010
8:44 pm
Lee- are you really that stupid? Seriously, if a kid comes to 9th grade reading on a 4th grade level, it may NOT be a teacher’s fault!

Bullcrap. Someone passed this student from grade to grade knowing that they were not on grade level. Who was it?

Your other examples do not make any sense. So what if a student has a bad home life, parents are drug addicts, etc, etc. If that student cannot do the work, they need to be retained.

Grade inflation and passing a student from grade to grade who cannot do the work is no better than the test fraud that was recently perpetrated on the CRCT.

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Really: “the classroom tests given by the 30 year veteran who is counting the days to retirement and should have been shown the door a decade ago?”

I am sick and tired and incensed that people think that just because a teacher is nearing 30 years of service, he or she is no longer effective and should be “shown the door”. Most teachers who have taught for that long are the BEST teachers; they are experienced, professional, dedicated to their students and to teaching. I could have retired 5 years ago but I love my job and love my kids and want to continue. Most of the people I know who have worked that long feel the same way I do. It is for us that NLCB has been most frustrating because we are no longer allowed to teach effectively. Now we have to mimic a process to teach the test that is NOT working. Why is experience not valued in education the way it is in other professions. This even happens with pay. After 21 years, a teacher receives NO MORE raises on the salary scale. Do we treat business people and other professionals that way? No, their experience is valued and they are paid more for their expertise.

I am not too old and tired to teach. Yet the perception is that I am “out of it” and should be gone because I am “marking time”. Nothing could be further from the truth. Stop the stereotyping and slamming of experienced teachers. When all of us are gone, those who come in and leave after a few years will demonstate that the quality of teachers will NEVER AGAIN be what is is now. It will be worse, far worse because those new in the profession will only know how to administer a process. They do not reallly know what teaching is. God help the kids.

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Really? If a child is at a 4th grade reading level in 9th grade, the child should have been retained, but that is not allowed in the elementary schools any longer; nor is it allowed in the middle schools. We have social promotion, and God love the teacher who suggests that a child be retained. The school does not tolerate “failure”. So the kid is promoted, gets good grades, and then comes to high school and the parents can’t figure out why they are doing so poorly. The system is broken, not the teachers.

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@Really–you’ve brought up a complaint that has absolutely nothing to do with outside assessment. Standardized tests would do nothing whatsoever to cure the problem you cited. This is the kind of thing that can be caught only by internal inspection and observation, which is the most effective method.

@just a grunt–There is actually one teacher’s union in Georgia–the American Federation of Teachers. They have almost no members and no influence.

In this state, teachers do not enter into collective bargaining. GAE, PAGE, and the AFT cannot negotiate with the state or local school boards. THERE ARE NO TEACHERS’ UNIONS IN GEORGIA THAT FUNCTION AS A UNION DOES, AND GAE AND PAGE ARE NOT UNIONS. They are free to lobby, and they provide legal services and benefits just like any other interest or support group, but they cannot directly influence school boards or the legislature. You’re welcome to your anti-union opinions, but you are not welcome to make up your own “facts”.

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The vast majority of teachers/administrators don’t give a Rats ___ about their kids so long as they still have a job. The biggest problem with our schools is that they are run like a bureaucracy. There is more campaigning in the average high school than most political races. The entire system is broken and until you throw out the current officials, most administrators, most teachers, etc, it will remain that way. The funniest part about all this is the Democrats solution to throw money at the problem and the Republicans solution to look the other way. No one actually wants to try something the studies have shown works: vouchers.

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Please list the studies that show vouchers work.

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Way to go Sen. Stoner. Now if you could only get your fellow senators to see it the same way. I wish you represented Gwinnett.

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@ Just a Grunt — In the private sector, if they receive a shipment of raw materials that are no good, they ship that back and get better raw materials. We can’t do that in school! Here’s some reading for you, from a businessman who has since made schools his business after getting “schooled” on this point… http://www.jamievollmer.com/blue_story.html

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I’ve seen kids with true intellectual disabilities placed in general ed classrooms where they have NO CHANCE of meeting even accommodated standards. Teachers (and I’ve been one of them) have complained over and over that these students belong in special education resource rooms, and the kids remain in the regular classroom. Why? The parents threatened to SUE the school and the county board of education for trying to place their children in special education classes. Two years ago, I had an autistic child with emotional behavior disorders (who had been retained twice previously) in the same classroom as a child with a documented IQ of 72 and then 19 “on level” students. As a teacher, do I have any control over that? Guess what- my principal didn’t either. Both of these children had parents who had retained lawyers, costing our county board of education thousands in legal fees to simply handle their complaints. In the end, the county gave in to the squeaky-wheel parents and let their special education kids into on level classes. Am I to blame for those children not passing the CRCT? How much time and attention do you think those 2 kids took away from the other 19? How many instruction minutes were wasted by my autistic student’s disruptions or my intellectually challenged kid’s inability to read aloud or participate in oral projects?

In this case, blame litigious parents who don’t want their kids “labeled.”

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[...] to enjoy her students and coaching her high school’s debate team.  (You might remember the piece on merit pay she co-wrote for the blog.) And while Jordan has never mentioned this,  she was Centennial’s Teacher of [...]

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