Friendly debate: A single academic track or multiple tracks?
I had an interesting conversation today with John Konop, who is the CEO of a financial services company, a former candidate for Congress – he lost a GOP primary challenge to Tom Price in 2006 — and a frequent commenter on education issues.
Should a high school diploma mean different things for different students?
A Cherokee resident, Konop was one of the early critics of the state’s new math curriculum. He sees the math reforms as a symptom of a larger problem: Forcing all students into an academic track that is not relevant to their dreams, may exceed their abilities and pushes them to drop out.
As a CEO who monitors job trends, he questions the mantra that high level math skills are essential to most future jobs. He advocates options outside college prep for students so they are not done in by early failure and give up on school.
He and I agree that the dropout rate in Georgia is a problem. However, we depart on the solution. He wants a non-college track, saying that a lot of students in Georgia – including those only learning English — could be better served by a track that leads them to technical training and certification rather than to college and a bachelor’s degree.
Konop agrees that people change their goals – what someone wants at 15 may not be the same thing they want at 25 – - but says that’s why we ought to make it easier for people who obtain certificates to resume their education.
“A lot of those kids would be better served in junior high by getting into a certification program. To expect a kid having a hard enough time grasping the language to go on a certain track to college is irrational for them and for the teacher. At the end of the day, no matter what we do, a certain amount of people will fall through the cracks,” he says. “If kids do fall through the cracks, what can you do to change it? I recommend giving these kids a chance to go to junior college. The guy who is the CIO at my company got his first IT degree from IT Tech and now has a MBA.”
Konop says many older workers went to college assuming they would learn everything they needed for their careers. Their college degree marked the end of their education.
“We don’t live in that world anymore,” he says. “Now, if you study something it gets you in the door, but you have to keep studying. I am a CEO, but I keep reading every day. I don’t look at education as ever stopping.”
Here is my counterargument in brief: The attitude that students need an academically less demanding “vo-tech” track fails to consider the dramatic changes in the 21st-century workplace that can make a manufacturing manual tougher to comprehend than a college text. Strong literacy and math skills are vital.
As Kati Haycock of the Education Trust told me: “Young people today who don’t have those skills are not becoming auto mechanics; they are the ones sweeping the shop floor.”
Konop argues that the single college prep diploma will drive more high school students to quit, but history doesn’t bear out his predictions. The national movement to higher standards that began in the 1970s did not inflate dropout rates. In fact, dropout rates fell between 1973 and 1990, especially among black students. The key is to ensure that additional academic rigor seems relevant to future employment. Students who understand how physics is applied to careers in aeronautics or hydraulics, for example, are more likely to invest the time needed to master that discipline.
In addition, Census data still show that even completion of only two years of college yields higher lifetime earnings than a technical school certificate. Yes, there are high-earning mechanics and welders out there, but we often overlook all the folks coming out of tech schools into low-paying fields with very little opportunity for advancement.
Konop wrote a blog posting about his position and about a bill that he thinks will help: Here it is:
Our high schools are facing skyrocketing drop out rates, declining test scores, and limited tax revenue (because of the recession). No Child Left Behind’s one-size-fits-all education model, with its unfunded mandates from the sate and federal government, has been a massive failure by any measurement.
Georgia has unfortunately followed No Child Left Behind’s lead and established a one-track-fits-all philosophy, which forces all students into a college-bound curriculum. The result: students with an aptitude for vocational/tech curriculum are demoralized (and dropping out in greater numbers) and college-bound students are not challenged by an increasingly watered-down curriculum aimed at accommodating everyone (including students who would be better served by a vocational/tech curriculum).
The solution to these problems requires only common sense and familiarity with an already proven approach. For example, Macon, GA, has developed a multi-track (college-bound and vocational/tech) system based on each student’s aptitudes. By putting vocational students and college bound students on different tracks, the school has realized amazing results.
From Macon.com: “…the immediate benefits from the career academy include lower dropout rates, higher graduation rates, and a more skilled labor pool in the county, [school administrator Carpenter] said. The Newnan school’s web site states the county’s dropout rate has fallen by half since it opened, and the graduation rate for students in dual enrollment programs is 98 percent.”
Georgia State Representative Steve Davis has proposed a bipartisan bill (HR-215) to promote this multi-track concept. The bill will provide separate tracks for high school students (a college-bound track and a vocational/tech track) using joint enrolment programs with local colleges and technical schools to support honors and vocational programs.
HR-215 would 1) increase graduation rates, 2) provide our local economy with work-ready students who will increase tax revenues, and 3) decrease the money governments spend on welfare and crime. It will also lower the overall cost of education by better utilizing college and technical school resources, many of which have surplus capacity.
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
131 comments Add your comment
Old School
January 27th, 2010
6:49 am
I guess someone finally listened to the mantra I’ve been chanting for years. It’s not a new idea, it’s just coming around again in the ever circling band-aid cycle that seems to make legislators pat themselves on the back and those on the front lines sigh as they prepare for the next cure du jour.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
7:19 am
Buckle up everyone, the dropout rate is, in fact about to soar. It’s already showing signs. Maureen, I urge the AJC to look at 9th grade promotion/retention rates around the state for the original class of 2012. I say original, because many who started with the class of 2012 are now members of the class of 2013. This is due in large part to their failure of Math I, and it’s just going to snowball from here.
Oldspartan
January 27th, 2010
7:23 am
3rd times a charm I hope?? if most submitters are never posted there is NO debate; here is a list of questions for you Maureen
Can every person bench press 500lbs? Should they be required to?
Can every person run a mile in under 5 min.? Should they be required to?
Can every person become an American Idol? Should they be required to?
Can every person become a Air Force Fighter Pilot? Should they be required to?
Can every person become a Doctor? Should they be required to?
In Amercia all students have the opportunity to become any one of these things, but do they have the capacity.
People in their ivory towers look down on the population and think they know better; but wasnt it the top of the class, the elite with their Harvard degrees that drove our economy right into the ground?
About 22% of Amercians have college degrees, that means about 78% are doing fine without one. Schools must be designed around the 78% thats why we can have IB or advanced placement for the other 22%.
If you dont like persons disagreeing with you, just give up the blog.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
7:34 am
“Here is my counterargument in brief: The attitude that students need an academically less demanding “vo-tech” track fails to consider the dramatic changes in the 21st-century workplace that can make a manufacturing manual tougher to comprehend than a college text. Strong literacy and math skills are vital.”
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that all students don’t need strong literacy and math skills, but they certainly don’t need college level statistics in the 10th grade, and that is just what the state is trying to cram down everyone’s throat.
As for four years of science, to what end? Making them take it doesn’t mean they’ll get anything out of it. Their time would be better spent learning something meaningful for that individual student, whether it be more classical literature or auto repair. We are completely disregarding the fact that all students have different strengths and weaknesses, that are brains are all wired differently, and instead are trying to force everyone into the same size pair of shoes. It will not work.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
7:36 am
typo: “are brains are all wired differently” should be “our brains…”
catlady
January 27th, 2010
7:37 am
Kudos to Mr. Konop! Is he running for office? I would think about supporting him.
We need ALL kids to MASTER basic math. Not everyone needs advanced math, nor, to be frank, does everyone have the skills, dedication, or ability to do so.
rocket scientist, not
January 27th, 2010
7:40 am
The idea Mr. Konop proposes has merits, but there are certain parts of his arguments that worry me.
English learners – why should they be automatically put in the group for technical prep? Just because they are English learners doesn’t mean those students may excell in math and science. Why limit their options?
Who decides what tracks to go into at what age? Many European systems are just like what Mr. Konop is proposing. In general, people in his party seems to dislike what European does so I found it interesting that he is proposing basically a system like what UK and Germany have been doing for years. In those systems, I think students are placed into tracks by standardized tests. Are we going to have such high-stake tests to use to screen students? Do we make sure that parents will not interfere in the decision — as they seem to do often in the current system?
What exactly is our current drop out rate anyway?
@catlady
January 27th, 2010
7:42 am
So, what is “basic” math and what is “advanced” math? Who decides?
Jennifer
January 27th, 2010
8:14 am
Ye gads, how low can we go with academic expectations in Georgia ? I would hardly say that the current academic requirements are even anywhere close to benching 500 or becoming an American Idol.
And in my experience, at least in the meetings I have attended in my county there is no real choice for parents when it comes to guiding students into technical/vocational/academic programs. If you have attended a 9th grade student academic planning discussion – it is painfully obvious that a “push” to vocational and technical education happens from the school, not the parents. And it happens more often to students of color, economically disadvantaged students, immigrant students, and special education students.
I am going to do a little research on the “career academy” that is cited in Macon..My guess is that there is a whole lot more to that particular story.
Maureen Downey
January 27th, 2010
8:16 am
rocket, The state says that about 78 percent of Georgia students are graduating, but other studies put it around 62 percent. All states have to move to a common calculation that will take into consideration how many kids start high school. The current system overlooks a lot of kids who disappear from the radar early on.
It is true that Georgia – whatever measure is used – is seeing an uptick in the number of kids graduating, but our rate is still among the lowest in the country.
Maureen
Cere
January 27th, 2010
8:18 am
“As Kati Haycock of the Education Trust told me: “Young people today who don’t have those skills are not becoming auto mechanics; they are the ones sweeping the shop floor.”
That may be true — in the south.
I’ve never seen a successful vo-tech high school in the south. I’ve never even met an education leader who could envision one. You should investigate some of the very successful schools in the Midwest and New England. The one in my hometown partners with the local community college and Ford motor company. These kids DO leave school with an ability to land an entry-level job in auto mechanics, carpentry, hair design, desktop publishing, small engine repair, HVAC, preschool education, dental asst, etc etc. They have a waiting list to get in! And guess what – many of them do still go on to college – perhaps first to community college and then to the university – but the path to a college degree is not blocked by attending a vo-tech high school.
I would suggest that SOMEONE from Georgia look outside the boundaries of Georgia and see how people are running successful school systems elsewhere. Georgia did not do this with the math – they instead tried to create their “own” – and it’s a flop, IMO. Why do that? When you can just find someone doing something well and copy it?!!
Check out this example – and I can find you 10 more like it – but they’re not in GA
http://www.pentacareercenter.org/
john konop
January 27th, 2010
8:28 am
First I want to thank Maureen Downey for posting the topic and a very friendly as well as interesting conversation. I would like to point out the drop out rates are soaring around the country. And in Georgia, Kathy Cox is using creative math to cover up the problem as reported by the AJC.
If Kathy Cox did real tracking by students that entered the system you would see the drop out rate is close to 50%. We cannot fix a problem by covering it up.
Maureen is right that some kids could fall through the cracks needing more education latter, but relative to the above problem, we must focus on the drop out rate immediately!
Also slowing down the curriculum for high level college bound students only adds to the mess!
Data shows inconsistency in Georgia dropout, graduation rates
AJC-Georgia loses track of thousands of students each year, suggesting the dropout rate may be higher and the graduation rate lower than the state has reported, an Atlanta Journal-Constitution analysis found.
Last year, school staff marked more than 25,000 students as transferring to other Georgia public schools, but no school reported them as transferring in, the AJC’s analysis of enrollment data shows.
State officials said their records confirm the mismatch. After the newspaper asked where the students went, the state searched further using student names — which are not public information — and other personal details.
That search located 7,100 of the missing transfers in Georgia schools, state education spokesman Dana Tofig wrote in an e-mailed statement. The state does not know where an additional 19,500 went, but believes other coding errors occurred, he wrote. Some are dropouts but others are not, he said.
State officials have touted their statewide student tracking system as among the more advanced in the country. The missing transfers, however, are only the most recent students caught in an informational black hole due to coding errors.
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories//2009/06/07/georgia_dropout_rate.html
Friendly debate: A single academic track or multiple tracks? | Get … | World of Mecanics
January 27th, 2010
8:35 am
[...] Read a strange here: Friendly debate: A singular educational lane or mixed tracks? | Get … [...]
john konop
January 27th, 2010
8:37 am
rocket scientist, not,
I am not advocating all kids with language issues be put on a vocational/tech track. What I am saying is many of the kids who dropping out now because they see no hope of getting through the current requirements as well as not getting the proper training for a job.
If you set people up to fail than you will see failure. And as I said, the junior college system was set up for kids to get needed course work for entering a 4 year degree program if they did not get it in high school.
The real question is it better to have a kid with a skill for a job who has the choice to enhance it latter with more education or should we let them drop out if they do not fix the box.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
8:39 am
Jennifer,
While you may have seen students pushed into vo-tech programs, you will see that no more. With the class of 2012, there is ONE diploma. It’s college prep or nothing. There are no more vo/tech diplomas, and the programs are dying along with the votech diploma. That is not a good thing in my opinion. As Cere said we should look at what other states are doing. The Penta program she links to looks amazing.
teacher/parent
January 27th, 2010
9:16 am
The argument that students will be ‘pushed into a vocational track’ is a fallacy and is insulting. First, it ignores the fact that right now students are ‘pushed’ into a college prep track. If you say, that’s what everyone should be doing, then that’s an insult to those who do not want to or can not (as Konop states) at the time complete college prep work.
How will we decide who goes on the vocational track? The students will decide.
If they cannot or will not complete the work in college prep classes, who are we to force them to stay there. We can’t ‘push’ them into vo-tech, but we can force them to sit in college prep classes over and over until they ‘get’ what we tell them they ‘should’ be learning?!? Talk about demoralizing.
Attentive Parent
January 27th, 2010
9:17 am
Kati Haycock is quite an advocate of the one track for all high school curriculum. She believes that the strong students do not suffer in a heterogeneous classroom and the weaker students do better with the more challenging curriculum.
I think the evidence shows she is wrong about the effect on the stronger kids but she clearly wants a more equal society than the one we have in the US. That belief influences what she advocates for.
In an October education conference here in Milledgeville Haycock went on to say that it is important for luggage porters and garbagemen to also be well educated because “it gives their lives dignity”.
She seems to have a utopian, dreamy idea of the world as she wishes it were, not the reality we have in Georgia’s classrooms. Her ideas make even less sense in a world of increasingly scarce public dollars.
Attentive Parent
January 27th, 2010
9:27 am
Maureen- I seem to be caught in the filter.
Can you check?
Disgusted
January 27th, 2010
9:42 am
Since the topic has come up I guess I’ll beat this horse again.
There is a growing problem in the way some career academies and alternative schools are being used to hide drop outs and low performing students in order to increase graduation rates.
My school district, Hall County, has been taking students who will receive Certificates of Performance due to not passing certain tests and transferring them mere days before graduation to our Lanier Career Academy to graduate. This is done in order to improve the graduation rate at the traditional High Schools in the county and helped get this district off the needs improvement list.
I have reported this to Kathy Cox’s office and to the Governors Office for Student Accountability with no response from either place. This is shamefull. The vast majority of these students are minority and/ or poor.
There is also a program here that takes students out of the high schools who are behind in credits and puts them in a GED prep program of sorts. The trick is that in order to actually take the GED the student actually has to withdraw at some point and move on to the local tech school’s program, so the students that do so never register as drop outs. The ones that do actually drop out from this program are not counted against their home school because the career academy is set up as an independent school and never has a large enough population to register as a sub group for AYP purposes. Pretty slick game of hide the student.
I find this not only unethical on the part of all involved in the scheme, but very harmful to our minority and lower income children. But hey, it sure makes the powers that be in our district look great !
john konop
January 27th, 2010
9:43 am
Maureen Downey said;
……in addition, Census data still show that even completion of only two years of college yields higher lifetime earnings than a technical school certificate. Yes, there are high-earning mechanics and welders out there, but we often overlook all the folks coming out of tech schools into low-paying fields with very little opportunity for advancement…….
My point:
Data also shows the 40 to 50% of drop outs are a major drain on society ie prisons, welfare……
We must set the students for an opportunity to win not fail!
Disgusted
January 27th, 2010
9:43 am
Since the topic has come up I guess I’ll beat this horse again.
There is a growing problem in the way some career academies and alternative schools are being used to hide drop outs and low performing students in order to increase graduation rates.
My school district, Hall County, has been taking students who will receive Certificates of Performance due to not passing certain tests and transferring them mere days before graduation to our Lanier Career Academy to graduate. This is done in order to improve the graduation rate at the traditional High Schools in the county and helped get this district off the needs improvement list.
I have reported this to Kathy Cox’s office and to the Governors Office for Student Accountability with no response from either place. This is shamefull. The vast majority of these students are minority and/ or poor.
There is also a program here that takes students out of the high schools who are behind in credits and puts them in a GED prep program of sorts. The trick is that in order to actually take the GED the student actually has to withdraw at some point and move on to the local tech school’s program, so the students that do so never register as drop outs. The ones that do actually drop out from this program are not counted against their home school because the career academy is set up as an independent school and never has a large enough population to register as a sub group for AYP purposes. Pretty slick game of hide the student.
I find this not only very unethical on the part of all involved in the scheme, but very harmful to our minority and lower income children. But hey, it sure makes the powers that be in our district look great ! And apparently Cox and GOSA think it is ok.
We aren’t leaving kids behind, we just shove them out or hide them.
john konop
January 27th, 2010
9:44 am
sorry
We must set the students up for an opportunity to win not fail!
Disgusted
January 27th, 2010
9:44 am
Sorry for the double post!
john konop
January 27th, 2010
9:55 am
Maureen Downey said:
…..The key is to ensure that additional academic rigor seems relevant to future employment……
My point:
Did you not just make my point about fixing the drop out rate is based on students equating completing education to getting a job?
As someone who deals with studying research data it is very important to always break it up into sub groups to fix a problem, instead of looking for a one size fit all magic bullet solution ie NCLB.
It is irrational to think we can have the exact same solution for all sets of kids with different needs and skills.
Oldspartan
January 27th, 2010
9:57 am
sometimes what is wrong with teachers is they tell their students “wait until you get into the real world” here is whats wrong with that; the teacher has never been in the “real” world. the majority of teachers finish high school, go straight to college, then return to the area they were raised and get a teaching job. The student has to spend the day at school, then some go to work, and then have to give part of their paychecks to their family. The student is in the real world and some teachers are in their own little universe.
In defense of teachers, I own a business and i can pick and choose who works for me; public education can not be run like a business, i keep only the best employees and send others on their way. teachers must accommodate all students that come through the school house doors; and lets give them the opportunity with several different systems/routes for students to succeed. One size does not fit all in public education.
john konop
January 27th, 2010
9:57 am
If you do agree:
Please contact the new Speaker of the House David Ralston, who promised to put Georgia’s kids before lobbyist interests. Hold him accountable by demanding that he bring HB-215 to a vote. And please forward this e-mail to your friends who care about the quality of Georgia schools.
E-MAIL AND OR CALL! david.ralston@house.ga.gov –or– 404.656.5020
what's right for kids???
January 27th, 2010
10:21 am
I just paid my apliance repairman 500.00 over the past two weeks for about a half an hour of his time. 100.00 of it was for parts. I’m thinking he is successful; he makes a good living, and he enjoys what he does, which is fixing things. He had the choice to do that. He was not pushed into a college prep diploma. He makes his own hours and earns a good living for his family. He brought his son along the second time, as he said the schools don’t teach this stuff anymore.
A one track college degree looks like communism to me. All students are NOT equal in ability…sorry, folks, but it’s true. Maureen’s argument of keeping them from university later in life is also not true. College will always be there. If a student decides that he or she wants to go to university, he or she can. It may take a roundabout way to get there, but the kid can get there.
The CHOICE of a votech degree should be available.
Part of living in a free, democratic society is the freedom for people to make choices for themselves and their education. Forcing students into tracks that do not fit them or hold no interest for them takes their choice away. It’s not what is right for the child. It demoralizes and demeans them. Am I a bad person because I have no interest in Shakespeare? Am I stupid because I can take apart a vacuum cleaner and fix it, yet I have no interest in Physics? Why does it mean that a person can only be successful if he or she goes to college?
Oldspartan
January 27th, 2010
10:31 am
thank you very much J.konop for providing information on contacting leaders to voice for or against.
Maureen Downey
January 27th, 2010
10:39 am
What’s right for kids, The issue for schools today is not what kids want, but what they need to succeed in a future that will focus very much on people’s ability to learn and adapt. This is an excerpt from a Bill Gates’ letter. This part talks about his visits to some of the high schools that his foundation is funding:
john konop
January 27th, 2010
11:11 am
Maureen Downey,
In all due respect you keep avoiding the fact that around 40 to 50% are dropping out of school, with very limited options if any for a job. Also you avoid the fact Kathy Cox has handed out waivers like pizza coupons or pushing kids toward a GED to inflate results, while the kids have no real skills for the job market.
You cannot argue the above would not be better served with a skill for a job rather than being a drop out or having a degree with limited options.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
11:23 am
And to add to what John Konop just said said:
If 40-50 percent are dropping out now, just wait til the stats on the class of 2012 com rolling in. These kids are the first subject to the one diploma rule, and the problem is they are also subject to the new math curriculum, which they are failing in record numbers and increased science requirements. Dropout rates are absolutely going to increase unless somebody does something soon.
teacher/parent
January 27th, 2010
11:31 am
Maureen-Your response to What’s Right for Kids is STILL predicated on the notion that our goal should be for most (if not all) students to go to college. I disagree. Also, the statement that you can’t make enough money to raise a family if you don’t go do college is false. What’s right for kids, what 4 year degree did your repairman have? Is his business still successful in this economy. It is probably MORE successful since we are finally willing to repair instead of buy a new one (whatever ‘one’ might be). Face it, if the toilet’s broken, you’ve got to fix it, and most of us don’t know how-now why is that?
what's right for kids???
January 27th, 2010
11:35 am
High school isn’t enough any more, I agree, but putting children on a four year liberal arts college track is not the way that all students need to go. I’m looking, but I don’t see anywhere in the above that states all children need to go to college. It just says that schools should have students ready to go to college. Which college?
Even the students who go to schools that Bill Gates funds don’t 100% college attendance. The students who enter those schools also have a choice to go there, and I am assuming that they went/go to the school because they WANT to go to university. These students are also applied to get into the school, as it is a charter school, not a FAPE (free and appropriate public education) school. As a FAPE teacher, I get students who not only don’t have the ability to take Physics and pass it, but also don’t have the desire.
You state that we need to prepare students to be successful and with the ability to adapt and learn. Then why are we teaching to the test? Why aren’t we taking the time to grade portfolio only work, and not have standardized tests shoved at us, along with the two “checkpoint” tests that we also give in the year? With all due respect, Ms. Downey, I don’t think that we are in any place to tell children that they need to go to university to be successful. What is success? Who defines it?
cobbteach
January 27th, 2010
11:40 am
As will so many other educators, I agree with the multi-track approach. One Advanced Algebra/Calculus class does not fit all. The world needs lots of creative, competent, people-savvy workers for our techno-future. Where is it written that there is no room for craftsmen?
Even Einstein chose his path. Today, he’d have no time to dream. He’d be saddled with AP Literature, AP Chemistry, AP European History, AP Trigonometry, Advanced WebPage Design, AP STatistics, Spanish IV, and Weight Lifting (you gotta be fit to get into college…)
You want to see some happy kids? Come to one of my work calls on a cold Saturday morning when the tech crew is working on our latest theatrical production. Drills, screws, saws, lumber, and satisfaction from working with their brains AND their hands. My guys are carrying the load above and still finding time to be creative. Open up the opportunities, folks!
Maureen Downey
January 27th, 2010
11:41 am
John, I certainly agree that dropping out is a doomsday scenario for both the kids and the state. The ideal is keeping all kids in school and getting them not only through high school but onto some postsecondary school.
I think the best job skill today – and you said it yourself in our conversation – is becoming a lifelong learner who has strong enough literacy and math skills to handle what will only be increasingly complex material.
Maureen
john konop
January 27th, 2010
11:52 am
Maureen,
I think the difference in our view of the world is this:
I think we can provide opportunities to an individual but at the end they must decide how far they can take it. You think that you can force someone to see the opportunity and if they do not understand, they should have all options taking off the table.
At the end of day I think the individual should decide what is best for them not you or I.
jim d
January 27th, 2010
11:53 am
Bill Gates?? you gotta be kidding!
What exactly makes his thoughts on what a child should or should not do more critical than what the student wants??
Perhaps it is time that we write legislation (since that now seems the only way to get anything accomplished) quaranteeing a students bill of rights which should include their right to chose their own path in life, be it technical or college bound.
jim d
January 27th, 2010
11:55 am
dont post in a few days and end up in the filters AGAIN
jim d
January 27th, 2010
11:58 am
John,
I agree that it should be an individual choice..
As for non college grads being on the lower pay rungs?? Hell, I know plumbers, electricans and pipe fitters earning 6 figure salaries. Not too shabby for a bunch of uneducated morons.
Maureen Downey
January 27th, 2010
12:10 pm
jim d, You weren’t in the filter. So not sure why the post was delayed in this instance. Our tech folks did look at your postings to try to figure what was triggering the filter so often.
They have no idea.
Maureen
jim d
January 27th, 2010
12:14 pm
Ms. Downey,
I suspect it may be caused by everything i write having to be cleared by Gwinnett County??
JATL
January 27th, 2010
12:23 pm
AMEN Mr. Konop! We desperately need tracking in our schools, and STRONG vo-tech tracking at that. I also agree that we need SUCCESSFUL vo-tech education. This “everybody needs to go to college” crap is so out of hand, and jim d is correct -many “skilled” non-college grads are out there making 80-150,000 per year, which isn’t too bad. Not everyone can or should become a surgeon or a rocket scientist. I’m 40 and my husband and I have worked and supported ourselves for over 20 years. We’re both college grads and have jobs you must have at least a Bachelor’s to hold, but I’ve NEVER used geometry, trigonometry or even algebra in any capacity outside of class.
Kyle @ VSU
January 27th, 2010
12:33 pm
As a young person who came through the Ga education system, I’ll say that I honestly believe the aspect that was absent in my high school education was basic life skill. In theory, by the time a person graduates high school they should be able to take care of themselves. Most high school grads today have no clue how to cook, clean, budget their finances, or pay their taxes. If high schools produce more self-sufficient graduates then the quality of life for those in their early 20 would increase and the would be able to contribute more to society than beer pong and being a prolonged dependent of their parents.
Special Ed
January 27th, 2010
12:34 pm
The current system we have in GA high schools borders on communism. Since when, in the United States, do we aim to have everyone the same?
Even in the economic crisis, we are privileged to have a variety of career options, ranging from the manual, the technical, and the intellectual. Every person has something they can contribute to our society. Shouldn’t schools seek to better promote each students’ strengths, rather than frustrate them with perpetual failure, because they don’t fit perfectly into a specific mold?
Why is vo-tech even viewed as being inferior to college prep? I don’t consider myself any better, with my graduate degrees, than the next person who may posess a completely different skill. Sure, I know how to do math, and even how to teach it, but when my car breaks down, I am at a loss, and I have to bring it to people who probably didn’t go to college, but learned their trade through a technical school. How am I superior to this person when I need them? The same thing goes for other technical skills, even cosmetology. How many people do you know that cut their own hair? Most of us pay a person who was specifically trained in their trade, to handle common aspects of our lives. Do we really care how well they understood quadratic functions and 12-step equations? So, why then, do we waste many of our students’ time, rather than preparing them for something they are not only good at, but enjoy as well?
SallyB
January 27th, 2010
1:14 pm
So ….HOW LONG HAVE THE TEACHERS [and others] ON THIS BLOG BEEN POSTING ABOUT THE NEED FOR MULTIPLE PATHS ????
Not weeks or months..but YEARS!!!!! It is not only unrealistic but boardering on ABUSE to give students no choice , no paths other than the college bound track. Students can , will, and have in the past become contributing members of our society without going to college. Some went to technical training schools, some learned valuable skills on a business path in high school, and some, [and here is where we really omit an obvious path,] are apprenticed to electricians, plumbers, mechanics and learn from the ground up a most valuable skill that will be the basis for a successful
future.
Attentive Parent
January 27th, 2010
1:58 pm
Maureen,
Katy Haycock testified before Congress on September 25,2006 and stated:
“At the end of high school, African-American and Latino youngsters had skills in both reading and mathematics exactly the same as white eight graders”.
We can assume all these groups STARTED high school at different skill levels. Who does the one track in high school system help? Given these statistics one track is too hard for certain students, too easy for other students, or a poor fit for everyone.
We need to deal with the actual needs of our real students and quit worrying about demographic groups. There’s a related essay on this today in Education Week called “What is ‘Excellence for All’? http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2010/01/27/19schneider.h29.html?tkn=QMLFfaeEe1pVHqCb5aWPCF7S5IjWBSCYRigQ
john konop
January 27th, 2010
2:06 pm
In fairness to Maureen I give her credit for letting our voices be heard. Thank you Maureen!
Attentive Parent
January 27th, 2010
2:15 pm
Help me out of the filter please!
retired
January 27th, 2010
2:33 pm
I, too, believe students need more choices in diploma programs. Not everyone needs 2 or 3 years of algebra. Much of the math I actually use is what I learned by 8th grade. Some students need to learn balance a checkbook, and a budget, how to complete the tax form, and how to write a letter of complaint to someone.
Some of these kids sat in my friends Algebra II class causing diruption.
Teacher, Too
January 27th, 2010
3:30 pm
Didn’t Billl Gates drop out of college (Harvard)? Did not having a four year degree prevent him from being successful? Haven’t other technology inventors (thinking Apple here) been successful without the benefit of college?
I do believe that we push too many kids into college who either don’t have the ability to handle the rigorous course work and need to remediate at junior college, or who don’t care about a white collar career and drop out. Some kids want to be artisans or mechanics, etc… I know a cabinet installer who makes high five figures (over 60,000) in THIS economy. When things were really good, he made into the six figures.
Oh, by the way, this teacher does live in the REAL world. For the first ten years that I taught school, I held down a part-time evening retail job. All through high school and college, I worked at the grocery store. And, while I was in college, I worked a second job as a part-time secretary. Now, I reconcile the books for my partner’s business.
What some students need more than algebra and geometry, is how to balance a check book, figure a mortgage payment, understand interest rates and credit, and figure percentages. These are skills that are used daily, and so many students don’t know how to do this. I was fortunate. My dad taught me about these topic because I was busy taking trig, Algebra II and III, and Calculus.
high school teacher
January 27th, 2010
3:38 pm
Maureen,
You said that there are items “in the 21st-century workplace that can make a manufacturing manual tougher to comprehend than a college text.” That may be true, but we aren’t even preparing our students to do that. Take a look at the GPS for English in grades 9-12. According to the DOE, “technical writing” really refers to the mechanics of writing an essay, not technical writing such as manuals or business letters. Having a separate track for college prep and vo-tech might actually help those vo-tech students and give them an edge over college prep kids.
BlackGirl
January 27th, 2010
3:48 pm
“I think the best job skill today is becoming a lifelong learner who has strong enough literacy and math skills to handle what will only be increasingly complex material.” Maureen, I disagree with you. Our society will always need carpenters, computer technicians, truck drivers, mechanics, HVAC technicians, etc. I can honestly name at least 10 people that earn an income equal or substantially greater than mine that don’t have a degree. I have an advanced degree in education, yet my salary is far less than my brother that drives a truck. These are necessary careers and I encourage students to consider them. Additionally, a person can live a comfortable life in any of these jobs.
“The national movement to higher standards that began in the 1970s did not inflate dropout rates. In fact, dropout rates fell between 1973 and 1990, especially among black students.” In the 70’s and 80’s students could choose a track. There was a non-college prep track available. Vocational courses were available. This would explain the decline in dropout rates for students. The new requirements are simply pushing students out of school. There is an increase in crime by teenagers which I feel is due to the increased dropout rate and zero tolerance. If Georgia truly wants to do what is in the best interest of students, decision makers will listen to educators and create a plan that fits more than just the college bound.
BlackGirl
January 27th, 2010
3:50 pm
I remember learning how to complete tax documents in 8th grade. We also were taught how to write a resume and dress for an interview. These are skills that I have used often. Why are we not teaching these courses anymore? Life Skills, that’s a course students really need. We called it “Career Exploration” in the 80’s.
@BlackGirl
January 27th, 2010
4:05 pm
We can’t teach those types of courses b/c all students are taking Physics and Trig and struggling through Shakespeare at night. After all, Bill Gates says they need to. Forgive my sarcasm; it’s been a rough January, and it looks like it’s only going to get worse. Has anybody else heard about a proposed 1% pay reduction for teachers next year? Hopefully, this if just a rumor.
Tonya
January 27th, 2010
4:20 pm
Call me evil then. because my son. who has been diagnosed with Aspergers and ADHD…will be going to the only vo-tech high school in the county when the time comes. If he fails at college, he will have a back-up that can still net him serious money. I am looking out for him because his social skills are lacking, but he is outgoing and personable about things he is knowledgable about. teach him a skill like welding or HVAC…and he will be better off in the long run.
My father is a telephone service repairman who makes about 100k a year. he is also extremely well-read and has an IQ hovering between 130-140. Your point is?
E
January 27th, 2010
4:21 pm
I think many of those with the benefit of a strong education overlook the many things they are able to do on a day to day basis that others cannot. Sure, not every child needs every class. However, many of those going to college are having to put in more than 4 full years and take remedial courses – the high school standards are NOT sky high.
You think you do not use or need algebra? When was the last time you were in a grocery store and could NOT tell whether the X ounce, Y price box was better than the W ounce, Z price box? It’s sad to so often run into those who really, honestly have no idea where their money goes because they do not have that education. It’s even sadder when the child with them asks which box they should get up and the adult cannot tell them – or tells them something incorrect (”get box A, it’s less so we can get more boxes”… when box B is twice the size and only half again the price, and they buy 4 A’s).
Several times I’ve been asked to tutor people who think they will go to college after avoiding optional classes and graduating… they often do not have the math skills to know if they can pay their bills, much less enter any further classes.
Multiple tracks are great, but do not sell people’s abilities or needs short. These should not be lower tracks just because they are easier – especially if it is just easier for the adults involved, or because they will produce more “graduates” on paper. The current standards – especially in math and language – do not actually require all that much.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
4:24 pm
I see many people posting about the importance of learning real life skills such as balancing a checkbook and understanding interest rates.I couldn’t agree more! Kathy Cox, on the other hand, doesn’t agree.
“You’ll have four years of math, too. And it won’t be algebra lite and money management. We’re going to make sure you have math skills where you can get out and get a job. I’m not going to allow four years of Math for Dummies.”
So Kathy Cox considers money management “math for dummies.” Interesting, particularly in these dire economic times.
I’ve posted the link to her interview with the MDJ before, but I think it is very important that people read her words for themselves-especially during this election year.
http://mdjonline.com/view/full_story/5593847/article-Cox-talks-tests–tougher-math–and-minorities?
Elsie
January 27th, 2010
4:40 pm
If I’m understanding correctly, part of Maureen’s objection to a vo-tech track is the assumption that vo-tech will be less academically rigorous. Why must the two go hand-in-hand? Why not have a challenging vo-tech curriculum? She uses the example of needing high literacy skills to understand a technical manual- so why not offer a “technical reading” course rather than literature? Informational text is not given equal time (based on my admittedly limited observations at one school), yet it’s actually a much more critical skill to everyday life than comprehending Shakespeare or Beowulf. I believe that the same concept could be applied to higher math and science courses, where the content would still be academically challenging, but taught from a practical application POV rather than the theoretical POV traditionally used in college prep courses.
Come to think of it, it wouldn’t hurt us to re-think a lot of our high school courses for practical application- one of the keys to remembering something is understanding how that new content fits into your existing schema.
JMHO.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
4:45 pm
E,
With all due respect, have you actually looked at the new math standards lately(the GPS for the class of 2012 and beyond–not the old QCCs)?
Students are failing in record numbers, because they are pushing college level math down 10th graders throats. They have not been properly scaffolded for this new curriculum and the state has definitely put the cart before the horse.
Further, being able to determine the best price on a box of cereal is a skill you would learn in a money management class (ie unit prices), not upper level algebra.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
4:53 pm
One more thing– under the old system there was something called a CP with distinction. (college prep with distinction). No more. Now everyone will earn a “diploma.” Wow.
Georgia Teacher
January 27th, 2010
5:05 pm
John,
You are on the money.
Maureen,
I suggest you go and visit one of the high schools that does a senior project and see what some of the kids are doing that does not require a college education. In fact, I invite you to come judge my students when they do their senior boards in May. Send me an e-mail and I will set it up.
The reality of the situation is many students don’t want to go to college. They want to work on cars. They want to own a landscaping business. They want to be carpenters. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Why are we wasting their time and our money preparing them for something they don’t want or need?
Elsie
January 27th, 2010
5:05 pm
Pay attention:
Please understand that I was in no way endorsing the recent math disasters. The lack of scaffolding is appalling, and your frustration is completely justified.
What I am suggesting that designing a vo-tech curriculum should not have to mean it is less rigorous, just presented differently. I would take your idea one step further- why not teach “Math for Running a Small Business”? Why should that be less valid or challenging than Algebra 2? We’ve blogged on numerous occasions about the disconnect between students and content; students don’t understand where they will use the information, and we – all of us- haven’t done a superb job of explaining relevance to them. In this utopia I’m proposing
, students would understand the applications daily, rather than just on the day that a guest speaker can visit.
Attentive Parent
January 27th, 2010
5:14 pm
Pay Attention-
The learning tasks in the Instructional Frameworks are not an efficient way to learn the math content in the GPS. It’s not sequential and there’s no way to correct misunderstandings. Many high schools have said they use the Frameworks as the curriculum, not the GPS or the textbooks. Reports are that the math EOCTs are being based in the IF.
You are right that they’ve pulled into too many college topics but “discovery” learning simply means confused students in most instances. We should NOT have a state mandated math curriculum that’s only accessible to math geniuses and students whose parents have hired tutors or can teach their own children at night.
Excellence for All may sound good but in practice this curriculum seems to mean excellence only for those with parents who step in. That’s not what public education should be about.
College Math Professor
January 27th, 2010
5:23 pm
Pay attention,
Excuse me, but nothing in the GPS is “college level” math – they may be preparing for students to take their first (real) college level math, which should be Calculus I or above.
Special Ed
January 27th, 2010
5:23 pm
@E:
How can you say our current Math and English standards “don’t require all that much?” I can personally attest to the fact that my students with disabilities in 9th-10th grade are challenged to do harder math than I was in college. While my degree was not math heavy, the core Algebra course was very rigorous. Many fellow students failed and had to repeat the course (if that’s any indication). The curriculum in Math I and Math II is very challenging to the average student. Now, imagine doing this with a learning disability. As far as English goes, that isn’t my department, but I know the students are held to high standards. It isn’t just about reading for information…it’s about digging deep and interpreting literature which may mean nothing to you.
majii
January 27th, 2010
5:30 pm
Cere,
Monroe County has the Youth Apprenticeship Program (YAP) that operates in a manner similar to the ones you describe that are available in the Midwest and New England. Many of the students who participate in this program are hired by participating companies after they graduate. One of the problems the school has had with this program was finding students who wanted to participate in it. The school also has excellent automotive, engineering, and building construction courses and programs. Students have an opportunity to become certified in some occupational areas before completing high school but not the will to discipline themselves to master the material and take the required tests.
Whose choice?
January 27th, 2010
5:37 pm
I just wonder how we are going to make sure that it will be students who will be making the choices, not parents, teachers, principals, or anyone else. Or, are we talking about screening tests that will put low achieving kids into the vocational track, purely based on their performances?
Maureen Downey
January 27th, 2010
5:38 pm
Georgia Teacher, I have seen senior project presentations but would happily attend your school’s program. In reading your comment, I did a quick Internet search on tips for people who want to be landscapers. I read about seven sites, and almost every one suggested college training to develop the advanced skills to make the better money. I also found this, which I thought was interesting:
jim d
January 27th, 2010
5:55 pm
The AVERAGE yearly salary for plumbers in 2008 was $49,200, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. Keep in mind that apprentices start work at half the salary earned by experienced workers. You can expect to receive raises throughout your training though, often every six months.
The AVERAGE yearly salary for electricians in 2008 was $49,890, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. Keep in mind that apprentices start work at 40 to 50 percent of the salary earned by experienced workers. You can expect to receive raises throughout your training though, often every six months.
AVERAGE: a single value (as a mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general significance of a set of unequal values
In other wordsthis means 50% make MORE
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
6:11 pm
College Math Professor,
There are certainly concepts in the GPS that at least at one time were reserved for college level courses. (ie the statistics units in the new math curriculum certianly delve into concepts that were at least at one time reserved for college level statistics courses.
Just curious, vo-tech aside, why does a student need calculus if they want to be a lawyer, a professional sales rep or a first grade teacher?
I have survived quite nicely without it, and I have a masters degree and have found success in my field.
Tonya
January 27th, 2010
6:18 pm
jimd:
And the 50% who make less are probably the least experienced in the field.
math teacher
January 27th, 2010
6:56 pm
Pay Attention:
I don’t see how you can criticize the inclusion of statistics if you are for more practical mathematics. Students will need statistics much more than trig once they leave schools.
There is no calculus in the GPS.
jim d
Your statement is only true if “Average” in this context is the median, not the mean. “Average” is not a mathematical term, and there are different types of “representative value” – you probably heard of “mean, median, and mode.” If these figures are the mean, then it is possible that more than 50% of people making less than this amount.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
7:14 pm
Math teacher,
I am not criticizing the inclusion of statistics, I am simply stating that it is included in the curriculum.
College Math professor stated that Calc I should be the first math course for college students, thus my question about its relevance for non-math and science majors.
Cere
January 27th, 2010
7:15 pm
I’ve made this observation about the south from my 25 years living here — it’s still a pretty darn segregated place. Not so much racially anymore – as class and income. There is a large upper-crust “aristocracy” that is a carryover in thinking from Antebellum days (IMO) and an equally large “servant” class. But the middle class is weak and thin. There is really not much of a middle class at all.
I think you can’t truly be a great and successful state unless you have a bell curve that is healthy and tall in the middle. And Maureen – the people who attend (good) VoTech programs, work in working class professions and build a strong economy with better balance. It’s a necessary social change in addition to a change in delivery of education. I think the people who fight creating really good middle class opportunity are afraid of the social change. They don’t want the lower class moving up – earning more – or God forbid – organizing unions! But worse, they don’t want the horror of their children moving down in social status. And let’s face it – you can’t pay for private schools and country clubs unless you can get good, cheap help elsewhere.
rosie
January 27th, 2010
7:19 pm
The high school diploma in Georgia is worthless. In order to accurately calculate the drop out rate one must also consider the number of students graduating from high school, but not allowed to enroll in regular courses at a university or technical college because they can’t make the scores on the entrance exam. I’m not just talking remedial, but also GED level courses. If you graduate from high school and need to take GED courses to get into college, you are a dropout with a meaningless diploma.
rosie
January 27th, 2010
7:25 pm
Maureen,
Georgia teacher referenced students wanting to OWN his/her landscaping business. A general laborer probably makes $11-$13 per hour, but I suspect the owner makes more. $11-$13 per hour is not so bad for general labor/grass cutter/edger/trimmer.
math teacher
January 27th, 2010
7:46 pm
Pay Attention,
I think inclusion of statistics in HS (and earlier) for all students is a good thing. Don’t you?
I don’t know of any colleges that require calculus from non-math/sci students. I don’t get your question when you ask this question in the context of criticizing the GPS.
A lot of college math professors consider math courses below calculus I (and maybe including intro stat) to be “remedial” math. They may count for non-math/sci majors, but they certainly don’t consider those as “college level” math courses.
Old School
January 27th, 2010
7:55 pm
I’m suggesting not just more than one diploma, let’s have 3 charter schools in one high school.
The college prep school would offer coursework designed to prepare students for university level studies. They’d have the literature, psychology, foreign languages, etc.
The vocational school would also have a rigorous curriculum but its math would be geared to specific training areas (automotive, metals, construction, drafting, medical, etc) with personal finance, entrepreneurship, and the like thrown in. Language arts would be offered in a lab situation with 10th, 11th and 12th graders together. They would study grammar, business communications, technical writing, reading (technical manuals and training literature).
The third track would be for special needs and coursework would be tailored to their specific needs and abilities. Their participation in either of the other two schools would depend on careful matching needs/abilities/capabilities.
All three schools would overlap in fine arts and physical education. A ninth grade academy might also be a good idea if students can be retained until they prove they have mastered the basics of reading, writing, and math and top students could test out if space in the other schools is available. Industrial Arts would be offered in the 9th grade for those considering the vocational track as it always was an excellent course and should never have been dropped.
Finally, allow schools systems to tailor the vocational coursework to industries and businesses in the surrounding area. We’ve had industry advisory committees for years and they tell us what they need in a worker. The state has gutted many of our programs and eliminated skills that are still vital to employers. For instance, I could put students to work in with a light steel fabricator but there are no standards anymore for Structural Design and I’m not allowed to teach anything that has no state written standards.
I’ve sung this song so many times before. I guess it takes a different voice to actually get the words heard. Thanks, Mr. Konop, for reminding me of what we’ve lost in Georgia education. I’m just glad I got to teach during the heyday of vocational education.
Okay, that’s just my opinion. Let the bashing begin (even though I am NOT whining… just offering food for thought.)
Tweets that mention Friendly debate: A single academic track or multiple tracks? | Get Schooled -- Topsy.com
January 27th, 2010
7:58 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by MONISE SEWARD, Carrie Schneider. Carrie Schneider said: Friendly debate: A single academic track or multiple tracks?: Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) A Cherokee resid… http://bit.ly/bGTCBF [...]
john konop
January 27th, 2010
8:00 pm
math teacher
YOU SAID;
….I think inclusion of statistics in HS (and earlier) for all students is a good thing. Don’t you?….
NO:
Let me help you with math! Right now around 40 to 50% of kids are dropping out! Another large % has been passed along via waivers from Kathy Cox and if they graduate with a GED or anything they have no real life skills to bargain with.
If you ever really took statistics and understood concepts taught in the classes, like research methods, you would know any rational professor would flunk you on thinking increasing math standards would help the above problem.
Do you think any rational person who understands statistic and research methods would think your idea has any merit?
john konop
January 27th, 2010
8:07 pm
Math Teacher:
BTW what would scare me more would be you teaching statistics if this is your understanding as to how to apply the subject based on what you learned in school!
Old School
January 27th, 2010
8:07 pm
Maureen, dig my post out of the filter! I’d love to hear from Mr. Konop and find out what he thinks of my basic ideas.
math teacher
January 27th, 2010
8:26 pm
Mr. Konop,
I don’t think there is much in terms of research design in intro stat. Even AP stat will include only basic inferential statistics – things like confidence intervals – at most.
You mean, just look at what jim d said about “average.” Don’t you think well educated citizens, no matter what their vocation may be, to know the difference of mean and median?
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
8:33 pm
Off topic, but of interest to many….
possible legislation for a mandatory Sept. 1 or later school start date…
http://www.ciclt.net/sn/leg/l_detail.aspx?ClientCode=gssa&L_ID=357491&L_State=ga&L_Session=2009-2010
ScienceTeacher671
January 27th, 2010
8:34 pm
I’m probably at the top 25% of the salary scale for teachers in my area, but I still make less than an industrial maintenance mechanic who has been working for a similar amount of time…and who might need tech school but doesn’t need college. It used to be possible in my area to obtain a tech school certification and a high school diploma simultaneously, but it isn’t now. I think that’s a step backwards.
Ask the students. The students I teach are those who would have received “general” and “basic” diplomas some years back. They think it’s crazy that our schools don’t implement a European style program that would allow some students to go directly to work or an apprenticeship after 8th grade, others to go to technical school, and those with the inclination and ability to attend a college preparatory high school — but they would love to have those options.
ScienceTeacher671
January 27th, 2010
8:35 pm
Maureen! Why does the blog monster love my posts so much???
Kevin Wood
January 27th, 2010
8:42 pm
Mr. Konop & Mrs. Downey,
Thank you for posting this debate. I work in a large metro high school and the new one size fits all graduation requirements stifle our students to control their own learning. Combined with the new math curriculum and our students and parents have very little say in their high school education. I fully support this bill. The REAL graduation rate is far lower than what is published in the media or in official reports. Many students “disappear” from the official record. The new math curriculum is intensifying the drop out rate as 40-50% of first time 9th graders fail the course.
john konop
January 27th, 2010
8:59 pm
math teacher,
The proper way to study this issue would be based on appropriate sub groups ie gifted, college bound, and drop-outs……….
And than you would compare the study groups; for example if you look at wages and cost of a drop-out verse a kid graduating with life skills but non college bound curriculum……
Also a major key would be understanding overriding data points that drive results. We call this weighting in a scoring model.
For example:
Students coming from a supportive home, students seeing the education related to a job, especially low income…….
That is why anyone looking at this problem can see the drop-out % and pass along kids with no skills is the biggest issue!
john konop
January 27th, 2010
9:05 pm
math teacher,
BTW math teacher Kathy Cox claims the math curriculum is about applying it to the real world. Is it not ironic her new math curriculum fails the concept of real world application to solving the drop-out problem? As I said, she would get an F for application of usage of statistics in real research methods class!
teacher/parent
January 27th, 2010
9:41 pm
@rosie-Your thoughts about the real value of a GA high school are diploma are right on . . . and terrifying. If our sole job as K-12 teachers is to prepare students to go to college (and I do NOT believe it is), then the issue you raise needs to be addressed. How can we say ‘higher standards’ when we’re not graduating students who actually meet the current standards. I have a great idea-let’s cut funding for education, lower teacher morale with more furloughs, then only give the teachers merit pay if the students they taught x number of years ago graduate from college, since that’s the end-all/be-all.
teacher/parent
January 27th, 2010
9:46 pm
@Old School-You’re a genius. However, there are two things standing in the way of your dream coming true: money and the fact that it makes sense (that’s just not how things are done ya’ know)
john konop
January 27th, 2010
9:50 pm
Old School,
I agree! Good idea! Technical/vocational colleges being part of the course design starting in 7th grade would also help. They are required to meet job placement rates as well graduation rates to remain in good standing. Because of this they do a good job of keeping pace of the real needs of employers.
Also we would be using our resources more efficiently if we could drop the walls between the public schools and technical/vocational colleges in a time when money is very tight.
john konop
January 27th, 2010
9:52 pm
ScienceTeacher671
Thank you for teaching our kids!
Friendly debate: A single academic track or multiple tracks? | Get … | Drakz Free Online Service
January 27th, 2010
10:09 pm
[...] more: Friendly debate: A single academic track or multiple tracks? | Get … Share and [...]
rosie
January 27th, 2010
10:16 pm
Parent/Teacher-
You are correct in saying our goal is not for every student to go to college, but our goal is to make sure students exit high school prepared for post-secondary which is college, tech college or work. Our current high school diploma does not ensure students are ready for post-secondary. Our current education system is nothing more than a game some are trying to master by making up the rules as they play. Some have been around the block a few times, learned to break a few rules and haven’t gotten caught.
Public School Parent
January 27th, 2010
10:23 pm
This was said several times but is worth repeating. The flaw in Ms. Downey’s counterargument is that she presumes that a vo-tech curriculum is always less rigorous than a college prep curriculum. That may be so in some vo-tech programs but can and should be remedied. A top notch vo-tech curriclum will be different from the traditional college prep curriculum but it does not have to be less rigorous. In fact, many technology curriculums could be more rigorous, but simply taught in a more practical and less theoretical manner.
North GA H.S. Math Teacher
January 27th, 2010
10:45 pm
I have taught this new math curriculum for the past 2 years. I’ve taught Math I, Accelerated Math I, and Accelerated Math II. Even some of the strongest math students are struggling with this new math curriculum. I have been teaching for almost 15 years and I tell you we are in trouble unless something is done soon.
This curriculum was obviously constructed by College Math professors and probably high school math teachers that did not teach anything lower than AP Calculus. If you take a group of highly educated academics that LOVE mathematics, you might get the curriculum we are currently forced to teach. When we finally fix this curriculum (and I hope we will soon) I hope they think to included those of us who have taught both those who love math and those who do not.
Thanks J.K. for informing us about this bill and I will be calling to support it. Give ALL kids a chance.
Whose choice
January 28th, 2010
7:27 am
A couple of people raised this question, but no one seems to be answering it. I get the feeling that there are different assumptions about this question. I’m not even sure if it will be a choice – it’s going to be decided by some forms of testing. It is a way to keep those disadvantaged in their place.
john konop
January 28th, 2010
9:03 am
Whose choice,
First how can it get ant worse when you combine the drop out rate with the Kathy Cox give a degree with no life skills for is way over 60% of students?
As I said would it not be better the kid has a job with a skill instead of being in prison, a gang, looking for work with no skills……
Next, kids who take this path will have skills that will likely get them a job, they could and some will go on and get more education. The JC system was set up to accommodate kids that did not meet all the requirements before entering 4 year degree program.
Finally many people take a different path in education even with a college degree based on life circumstances. I have a degree in City planning not business and had to re-educate myself for my job. I have a good friend who graduated from technical college and his first job was a cameraman for CNN. And now he is a doctor.
At the end day the choice will be made I am sure from a combination of reality issues the student and parent must face ie financial concerns, job market, aptitude….. While no system will be perfect the student will always have an opportunity to grow if they want to!
john konop
January 28th, 2010
9:11 am
Whose choice,
First how can it get ant worse when you combine the drop out rate with the Kathy Cox give a degree with no life skills, it is way over 60% of students in the trouble zone!
As I said would it not be better the kid has a job with a skill instead of being in prison, a gang, looking for work with no skills……
Next, kids who take this path will have skills that will likely get them a job, they could and some will go on and get more education. The JC system was set up to accommodate kids that did not meet all the requirements before entering 4 year degree program.
Finally many people take a different path in education even with a college degree based on life circumstances. I have a degree in City planning not business and had to re-educate myself for my job. I have a good friend who graduated from technical college and his first job was a cameraman for CNN. And now he is a doctor.
At the end day the choice will be made I am sure from a combination of reality issues the student and parent must face ie financial concerns, job market, aptitude….. While no system will be perfect the student will always have an opportunity to grow if they want to!
jim d
January 28th, 2010
10:06 am
Math teacher,
excellent point
teacher/parent
January 28th, 2010
11:33 am
@ whose choice- You act as though offering an additional program of study is eliminating choice. The reality is that the current one track program is what takes away any choice from student, parent, and teacher. Right now, the legislators are the ones who chose to force all students onto the same track. The decision makers should ultimately to be parents and students, who consider the students’ academic success to that point, the students’ interests, and the recommendations of teachers. That’s how ‘college prep’ kids get into advanced classes, and although it doesn’t work 100% of the time, it generally gets students into the courses they are both capable of doing well in and want to be in.
john konop
January 28th, 2010
1:03 pm
Sorry about the typos!
john konop
January 28th, 2010
1:07 pm
teacher/parent
Very good point!!!
chuck
January 28th, 2010
1:46 pm
Maureen, your argument makes no sense. You act as if forcing kids to take a college prep program in High School means that these students will be going to college. That could not be further from the truth. Instead what they are doing is not even finishing High School. They don’t have the ability or the desire to pass those math courses and they CANNOT graduate without them. What do you expect them to do?
There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with going to Tech School and learning a trade. Certainly they will make less than if they had gone on to college, but they will make decidedly MORE than they would have if they had instead dropped out of High School. I quit college in my junior year. It was 8 years later that I came to my senses, and went back to finish.
Many of these kids will figure it out at some point. Taking a vocational track program will not prevent them from going to college later. They may have to take some remedial courses, but they will be MUCH BETTER students when they mature a little bit. Expecting them to pass a college prep course of study when they have no ability or desire to do so, is NOT BASED IN REALITY.
Maureen Downey
January 28th, 2010
2:11 pm
Chuck, I believe that kids need the same rigor whether they are on a career ready and college bound track. Here is the view of the National High School Alliance on the issue:
Maureen Downey
January 28th, 2010
2:12 pm
Chuck, Sorry, here is the source of that information. It is from a long report on this very issue:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Yqt816hn5-4J:www.hsalliance.org/_downloads/news/June22NNCORigorPaper.pdf+merits+of+a+single+college+prep+diploma+in+high+school+research&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbRGex_IxYZrZYKAdWtLIofeZ-PpRQ
john konop
January 28th, 2010
2:36 pm
Maureen Downey
In all due respect the issue is defining “academic rigor”, is the issue. For me math and logic are simple via my aptitude and skill sets. Yet if I had to make a living doing anything mechanical I would have been a failure.
The one size fit all one track solution does not take into considerations that all of us have strength and weaknesses.
The IQ test was designed for aptitude to place people in the proper job not to force people into doing a job not geared toward their skill set.
My wife and I had a bad week with home repairs and trust me the guy who does my work is not hurting for money. And trust me; I feel like an idiot sometimes when he explains what needs to get done.
Somehow many of us get the sense that you think that the skills learned by tradesmen are somehow have no “academic rigor”.
I would argue they are merely a different strength. As a parent I see it in my own kids. My son is very strong in math and my daughter is strong in English. Why not let them focus on their strength?
Tonya
January 28th, 2010
3:24 pm
Maureen is coming from a very liberal-minded perspective. I have seen destitute poverty, and the lack that no skills or education can bring first-hand. Everyone IS NOT college material, and forcing every square peg into a round hole will never work, no matter how much you try to force it in. A good vo-tech program IS rigorous, as it is generally a preparation for some type of testing or apprenticeship. Every tried doing your won wiring? Or being your own draftsman?
My husband is a teacher. He could make more money putting his handyman or computer skills to work than what he W-2 for 2009. But he loves teaching and it is why he does what he does. But he has been offered as much as $50 hour with NO formal vo-tech training to help friends with their homes and electronics.
SallyB
January 28th, 2010
4:13 pm
Ms. Maureen…..RIGOR/ RIGOROUS ??? Do you mean difficult and rigid???? Perhaps
thorough…complete…comprehensive…in-depth…assiduous might be better descriptors for diploma programs. One does not have to take Bio-Chem or advanced Trigonometry to have comprehensive curriculum to prepare students for a career path that does not include college.
Does anyone know what percentage of jobs require a college degree????
jim d
January 28th, 2010
4:27 pm
Ms. Downey,
you may find this well written article of interesst.
http://www.epi.org/analysis_and_opinion/entry/college_graduates_supply_and_demand/
jim d
January 28th, 2010
4:30 pm
Sally,
not sure of that one but it has been reported than 20% of college grads are not finding work and just moving back in with mom and dad.
Dr. Suess
January 28th, 2010
5:09 pm
Whose Choice?
“You have brains in your head.
You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself in any direction you choose.
You’re on your own. And you know what you know.
You are the guy who’ll decide where to go.”
Maureen Downey
January 28th, 2010
5:18 pm
jim d, While the job market for young workers is terrible, consider:
Among 20- to 24-year-olds, the jobless rate was 16 percent in November. However, when you look only at college graduates in that age group, the rate drops 10.6 percent.
Maureen
SallyB
January 28th, 2010
6:55 pm
Maureen…RE the jobless rate you quoted…Not sure about those stats….ANd perhaps, if those non c college grads had a high school that offered other that college pret diploma….Well…just saying…maybe there wouldn’ be so many unemployed….
…My statistics professor made a very impressive point…..CORRELATION DOES NOT MEAN CAUSATION…..In the group of non college grads, included all kinds of folks, including those not even looking for a traditional job…
SallyB
January 28th, 2010
6:57 pm
So why am I in the AJC OGRE filter again…….????NO RHYME OR REASON….!!!
john konop
January 28th, 2010
7:10 pm
SallyB,
You are right which is why studying multiple variables against different sub set group gives you a better view. Also that is why we weight variables because most times it is never a 1 size fit all solution to most problems.
ScienceTeacher671
January 28th, 2010
7:38 pm
Maureen, a couple of anecdotes. First, back when we had woodshop and better vocational courses, I had a young man in my science class who was classified as Mildly Intellectually Disabled. Although he was a nice young man, he didn’t do too well in his academic classes, in part due to his disability and in part because he didn’t sit still very well. All the same, he was magnificent in carpentry classes, and made some beautiful furniture. After high school, he went to work for a cabinet maker, and after a while, even earned a supervisory position. He is happily, gainfully, and profitably employed.
Second, a current 9th grade student. At first glance, he might remind you of the earlier student: very polite and friendly, very active and energetic, but not very strong academically. As a matter of fact, this student is reading at a fifth grade level, and doing math at a 3rd grade level. Student B did not pass the CRCT but was committee promoted. For some reason (maybe the RTI process?) Student B doesn’t seem to have ever been tested to determine whether his math and reading deficits result from a learning or intellectual disability, so he probably hasn’t ever received the intensive assistance or remediation that might have helped improve his reading and math skills. He currently is not on an Individualized Education Plan.
Maureen, do you think Student B will be ready for college any time soon? Do you think he will pass the GHSGT? Do you think some vocational training might improve his employment prospects?
The idealistic side of me would like to see all our students prepared for college, whether or not they choose to attend. The realist side of me has four classes full of Student Bs.
Cere
January 28th, 2010
8:50 pm
Maureeen, you said, “Finally, our foundation has learned that graduating from high school is not enough anymore. To earn enough to raise a family, you need some kind of college degree, whether it’s a certificate or an associate’s degree or a bachelor’s degree. So last year we started making grants to help more students graduate from college. Our focus will be on helping improve community colleges and reducing the number of kids who start community college but don’t finish.”
Are we to interpret this to mean that those who don’t attend college cannot afford to raise a family? Is the ability to raise a family tied to income? How about this instead – how about we create a country where those in the working class are able to earn a living wage and enjoy “life” – aka – “family”… Geesh – have we really gotten this focused on money in this country? What a bunch of snobs we’ve become.
Maureen Downey
January 28th, 2010
9:24 pm
Cere, I think Bill Gates said that. That’s from his annual letter, a part of which I excerpted under his name.
Maureen
Cere
January 28th, 2010
9:38 pm
Oh – sorry. Didn’t mean to infer that we are a whole country of snobs… it’s just Bill Gates!
In the words of Emily Litella – “nevermind!”
jim d
January 29th, 2010
7:46 am
Bill Gates doing more harm than good?
http://philanthropy.com/blogPost/Gates-Foundation-Investments/12711/
john konop
January 29th, 2010
8:05 am
Maureen,
We all see tend to see the world through what we experience day to day. Bill Gate view is tainted by being in the software business. The more people that use software for work, games……..the more money Bill Gates makes!
But it would be somewhat irrational to think everyone should be a high level programmer. Also life is about balance. I am sure Bill Gates like me this week has someone fixing things around his home and offices! Also the majority of his workers like mine are moving data not creating high level programming solutions.
Also if you ask employers like me in large office settings the skills we look for starting jobs you may be shocked. A technical college or temp service would know. What we generally look and test for is speed/accuracy on keying, familiarity of software, general math knowledge………
Finally, in my shop many of my employees are going to school part-time to seek a 4 year degree. And they are thankful they have skills that can earn them money while enhancing their education. I have other employees who are just thankful they have a skill that translate into a job.
Ole Guy
January 29th, 2010
5:50 pm
Kids need to receive a single-track education for a few simple reasons:
* Vocational tracks are, essentially, a watered-down, dumbed-down
curricula of mediocrity. How challenging can gen math and gen science
be made in order to capture a kid’s drive to keep pushing the envelope
in terms of mental conditioning?
* Armed with a solid grounding in a few advanced math and science
disciplines, the kid who chooses to attend a post hs vocational
training track will, ultimately, be more prepared to advance within
the growth structures of his/her chosen field. In other words,
college-bound kids are not the only group of high school graduates
who will benefit from academic rigor in high school.
* Vocational demands of the 21st Century are not at all of the same
levels as they may have been in earlier times. Sheetmetal workers,
for example, need to apply skills in geometry and math
conceptualizations. If the kid can’t work with minimal supervision
and becomes dependant on others to perform math functions of
moderate challenge, today’s employer would probably find this
totaly unaccepable.
Paint the pictures and scenarios any way you want…subjecting the kid to any but the most rigorous courses of study would be shortchanging, not only the kid, but the future of this Red White and Blue Country.
Ole Guy
January 29th, 2010
9:29 pm
Cere, you are absolutely correct in your observations; in that our collective focus (foci?) is primarily directed toward the almighty buck, we are, indeed, a country of snobs. How many of us purchase far more house than we really need? How many of us drive around in far more car than we need…we insist on commuting in that single-occupant SUV, when carpooling/public trans would work just fine. The rest of the industrialized world, to include the major metros of this country, employ public trans on a daily basis. I have chatted, on public trans, with a well-known nl baseball player, enroute to his “office”, the ball park. The ole American custom of “keeping up with the Jonses” is alive and well, as evidenced by the enormous debt loads incurred by so-called “educated” people.
I am quite certain one of the forces which casts us, the American populace, in lights of global disdain is our penchant for extravagance. While we gain paupership on global markets, we insist on maintaining a facade of well-being. The phrase “elimination of the middle class” becomes, with the passage of time, an unfortunate reality for many, yet we seem to insist on maintaining the lifestyles of “$35,000/yr millionairs”. INDEED, WE ARE A NATION OF SNOBS!
North GA H.S. Math Teacher
January 29th, 2010
9:34 pm
Ole Guy,
You my friend are absolutely correct. But, spend a few days substituting in an average high school and then come back and reply. BTW – It may only take one day depending on the class you sub for.
Ole Guy
January 29th, 2010
10:22 pm
Been there, Teach…like returning from a combat mission, there are many “sea stories”, some rather inspiring, some amusing, and some downright terrible. You remember them all, and one’s got to admire the leaders, the very folks who are tasked with producing inquiring minds.
I don’t know if you ever saw the movie/series “The Paper Chase”…at the very beginning, the venerable Professor Kingsfield entones the class “You come here with a head full of mush, and…IF you survive, you leave thinking like lawyers”. While your task is not to produce legal eagles, but rather thinking beings, I am quite certain both you and the mythical Kingsfield have to deal with “heads of mush”.
Thanks for your comments, Teach, and for what you are doing for future gens.
North GA H.S. Math Teacher
January 29th, 2010
10:50 pm
It can be a lot like a combat mission. The concerning part is that each year it seems to get worse. (BTW- I think I teach in a pretty good school in a really good district). I don’t know if it’s the drugs or what is going on. My best guess is that it is the breakdown of family. I’m afraid their parents are just too busy thinking about themselves to even care about what thier kids do. Unfortunatley, the kids that do care are mixed in with those that dont. Schools are afraid to fall below AYP and the dumbing down begins.
Ole Guy
January 30th, 2010
5:37 pm
Teach, I’ve said it before; I’ll say it again…at some levels, from the stratospheric reaches of government to the family core, we have become afraid of kids. There seems to have evolved a role reversal of sorts…in days past, it was the kid who feared (fear being nothing more than raw, uncut discipline) the world…now the world fears the kid. You have to reconsider any notion of helping a kid who may be traveling solo at the airport, lest you become branded a “prevert”…I need not enunciate the role reversals within the schools; paddles and social stigma were the orders of the day. If one got into a school yard fight (a near-daily occurance), one had better not be deemed as having some sort of advantage in terms of size, ability, etc, and certainly no weapons. If one was deemed, by the ever-present crowd, to indeed have an advantage, well, one just may as well have doned a dress. Bullying…sure, there was bullying, and you know, the bullier eventually got flattened…why? Because everyone (then as now) hates a bully. What’s the difference? As I said, we are afraid of these kids. Hells bells, even kids are afraid of kids. How many kids come to school armed, be it with firearms, knives or whathaveyou.
We’ve seen what happens when our government insists on maintaining ultimate control of everything…when they relagate “ground commanders” to secondary roles of mission execution. I don’t know how many readers are familiar with the govt. micromanagement of air campaigns into North Vietnam; the conditions under which ground commanders were obliged to conduct operations under militarily unfavorable conditions, conditions deemed favorable only in the political sense.
There are many who consider that, had our govt not stopped on Bahgdad’s doorstep in the first Gulf War, today’s situation in that region may well be completely different. The adversary, today, knows that he can seek shelter (political immunity, if you will) in a mosque, compliments of the US Govt’s intent on maintaining political correctness on the field of battle.
So, Teach, we both know that until the govt allows the “educational ground commanders”, that’s you, the teacher corps, to “conduct classroom operations” as you deem “tacticaly fit”, ain’t no amount of educational reform gonna work.
North GA H.S. Math Teacher
January 31st, 2010
11:35 pm
Total agreement.
john konop
June 12th, 2010
5:57 am
In all due respect the problem is NO ONE agrees with this one size fit all No Child Left Behind education strategy that Kathy Cox and Sonny were pushing. Which is why KATHY COX was so unpopular even in her own party, Kathy could not even get 50% of the vote one time statewide in county straw poll across the state in her own party. She only raised 20K to run a statewide race, had personal financial problems, scandal of the day and a poor performance.
The real issue is most people agree with a multi-track system not a one size fit all plan. Your blog even demonstrated my point via reading the comments on our debate. As I told you I think your blog is very good and you bring up many good points, but on this issue you have a big blind spot. I still like you
Friendly debate: A single academic track or multiple tracks?
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2010/06/11/wanted-someone-with-lots-of-friends-and-money-to-run-for-school-superintendent-as-independent/#comments