Friendly debate: A single academic track or multiple tracks?
I had an interesting conversation today with John Konop, who is the CEO of a financial services company, a former candidate for Congress – he lost a GOP primary challenge to Tom Price in 2006 — and a frequent commenter on education issues.
Should a high school diploma mean different things for different students?
A Cherokee resident, Konop was one of the early critics of the state’s new math curriculum. He sees the math reforms as a symptom of a larger problem: Forcing all students into an academic track that is not relevant to their dreams, may exceed their abilities and pushes them to drop out.
As a CEO who monitors job trends, he questions the mantra that high level math skills are essential to most future jobs. He advocates options outside college prep for students so they are not done in by early failure and give up on school.
He and I agree that the dropout rate in Georgia is a problem. However, we depart on the solution. He wants a non-college track, saying that a lot of students in Georgia – including those only learning English — could be better served by a track that leads them to technical training and certification rather than to college and a bachelor’s degree.
Konop agrees that people change their goals – what someone wants at 15 may not be the same thing they want at 25 – - but says that’s why we ought to make it easier for people who obtain certificates to resume their education.
“A lot of those kids would be better served in junior high by getting into a certification program. To expect a kid having a hard enough time grasping the language to go on a certain track to college is irrational for them and for the teacher. At the end of the day, no matter what we do, a certain amount of people will fall through the cracks,” he says. “If kids do fall through the cracks, what can you do to change it? I recommend giving these kids a chance to go to junior college. The guy who is the CIO at my company got his first IT degree from IT Tech and now has a MBA.”
Konop says many older workers went to college assuming they would learn everything they needed for their careers. Their college degree marked the end of their education.
“We don’t live in that world anymore,” he says. “Now, if you study something it gets you in the door, but you have to keep studying. I am a CEO, but I keep reading every day. I don’t look at education as ever stopping.”
Here is my counterargument in brief: The attitude that students need an academically less demanding “vo-tech” track fails to consider the dramatic changes in the 21st-century workplace that can make a manufacturing manual tougher to comprehend than a college text. Strong literacy and math skills are vital.
As Kati Haycock of the Education Trust told me: “Young people today who don’t have those skills are not becoming auto mechanics; they are the ones sweeping the shop floor.”
Konop argues that the single college prep diploma will drive more high school students to quit, but history doesn’t bear out his predictions. The national movement to higher standards that began in the 1970s did not inflate dropout rates. In fact, dropout rates fell between 1973 and 1990, especially among black students. The key is to ensure that additional academic rigor seems relevant to future employment. Students who understand how physics is applied to careers in aeronautics or hydraulics, for example, are more likely to invest the time needed to master that discipline.
In addition, Census data still show that even completion of only two years of college yields higher lifetime earnings than a technical school certificate. Yes, there are high-earning mechanics and welders out there, but we often overlook all the folks coming out of tech schools into low-paying fields with very little opportunity for advancement.
Konop wrote a blog posting about his position and about a bill that he thinks will help: Here it is:
Our high schools are facing skyrocketing drop out rates, declining test scores, and limited tax revenue (because of the recession). No Child Left Behind’s one-size-fits-all education model, with its unfunded mandates from the sate and federal government, has been a massive failure by any measurement.
Georgia has unfortunately followed No Child Left Behind’s lead and established a one-track-fits-all philosophy, which forces all students into a college-bound curriculum. The result: students with an aptitude for vocational/tech curriculum are demoralized (and dropping out in greater numbers) and college-bound students are not challenged by an increasingly watered-down curriculum aimed at accommodating everyone (including students who would be better served by a vocational/tech curriculum).
The solution to these problems requires only common sense and familiarity with an already proven approach. For example, Macon, GA, has developed a multi-track (college-bound and vocational/tech) system based on each student’s aptitudes. By putting vocational students and college bound students on different tracks, the school has realized amazing results.
From Macon.com: “…the immediate benefits from the career academy include lower dropout rates, higher graduation rates, and a more skilled labor pool in the county, [school administrator Carpenter] said. The Newnan school’s web site states the county’s dropout rate has fallen by half since it opened, and the graduation rate for students in dual enrollment programs is 98 percent.”
Georgia State Representative Steve Davis has proposed a bipartisan bill (HR-215) to promote this multi-track concept. The bill will provide separate tracks for high school students (a college-bound track and a vocational/tech track) using joint enrolment programs with local colleges and technical schools to support honors and vocational programs.
HR-215 would 1) increase graduation rates, 2) provide our local economy with work-ready students who will increase tax revenues, and 3) decrease the money governments spend on welfare and crime. It will also lower the overall cost of education by better utilizing college and technical school resources, many of which have surplus capacity.
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131 comments Add your comment
high school teacher
January 27th, 2010
3:38 pm
Maureen,
You said that there are items “in the 21st-century workplace that can make a manufacturing manual tougher to comprehend than a college text.” That may be true, but we aren’t even preparing our students to do that. Take a look at the GPS for English in grades 9-12. According to the DOE, “technical writing” really refers to the mechanics of writing an essay, not technical writing such as manuals or business letters. Having a separate track for college prep and vo-tech might actually help those vo-tech students and give them an edge over college prep kids.
BlackGirl
January 27th, 2010
3:48 pm
“I think the best job skill today is becoming a lifelong learner who has strong enough literacy and math skills to handle what will only be increasingly complex material.” Maureen, I disagree with you. Our society will always need carpenters, computer technicians, truck drivers, mechanics, HVAC technicians, etc. I can honestly name at least 10 people that earn an income equal or substantially greater than mine that don’t have a degree. I have an advanced degree in education, yet my salary is far less than my brother that drives a truck. These are necessary careers and I encourage students to consider them. Additionally, a person can live a comfortable life in any of these jobs.
“The national movement to higher standards that began in the 1970s did not inflate dropout rates. In fact, dropout rates fell between 1973 and 1990, especially among black students.” In the 70’s and 80’s students could choose a track. There was a non-college prep track available. Vocational courses were available. This would explain the decline in dropout rates for students. The new requirements are simply pushing students out of school. There is an increase in crime by teenagers which I feel is due to the increased dropout rate and zero tolerance. If Georgia truly wants to do what is in the best interest of students, decision makers will listen to educators and create a plan that fits more than just the college bound.
BlackGirl
January 27th, 2010
3:50 pm
I remember learning how to complete tax documents in 8th grade. We also were taught how to write a resume and dress for an interview. These are skills that I have used often. Why are we not teaching these courses anymore? Life Skills, that’s a course students really need. We called it “Career Exploration” in the 80’s.
@BlackGirl
January 27th, 2010
4:05 pm
We can’t teach those types of courses b/c all students are taking Physics and Trig and struggling through Shakespeare at night. After all, Bill Gates says they need to. Forgive my sarcasm; it’s been a rough January, and it looks like it’s only going to get worse. Has anybody else heard about a proposed 1% pay reduction for teachers next year? Hopefully, this if just a rumor.
Tonya
January 27th, 2010
4:20 pm
Call me evil then. because my son. who has been diagnosed with Aspergers and ADHD…will be going to the only vo-tech high school in the county when the time comes. If he fails at college, he will have a back-up that can still net him serious money. I am looking out for him because his social skills are lacking, but he is outgoing and personable about things he is knowledgable about. teach him a skill like welding or HVAC…and he will be better off in the long run.
My father is a telephone service repairman who makes about 100k a year. he is also extremely well-read and has an IQ hovering between 130-140. Your point is?
E
January 27th, 2010
4:21 pm
I think many of those with the benefit of a strong education overlook the many things they are able to do on a day to day basis that others cannot. Sure, not every child needs every class. However, many of those going to college are having to put in more than 4 full years and take remedial courses – the high school standards are NOT sky high.
You think you do not use or need algebra? When was the last time you were in a grocery store and could NOT tell whether the X ounce, Y price box was better than the W ounce, Z price box? It’s sad to so often run into those who really, honestly have no idea where their money goes because they do not have that education. It’s even sadder when the child with them asks which box they should get up and the adult cannot tell them – or tells them something incorrect (”get box A, it’s less so we can get more boxes”… when box B is twice the size and only half again the price, and they buy 4 A’s).
Several times I’ve been asked to tutor people who think they will go to college after avoiding optional classes and graduating… they often do not have the math skills to know if they can pay their bills, much less enter any further classes.
Multiple tracks are great, but do not sell people’s abilities or needs short. These should not be lower tracks just because they are easier – especially if it is just easier for the adults involved, or because they will produce more “graduates” on paper. The current standards – especially in math and language – do not actually require all that much.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
4:24 pm
I see many people posting about the importance of learning real life skills such as balancing a checkbook and understanding interest rates.I couldn’t agree more! Kathy Cox, on the other hand, doesn’t agree.
“You’ll have four years of math, too. And it won’t be algebra lite and money management. We’re going to make sure you have math skills where you can get out and get a job. I’m not going to allow four years of Math for Dummies.”
So Kathy Cox considers money management “math for dummies.” Interesting, particularly in these dire economic times.
I’ve posted the link to her interview with the MDJ before, but I think it is very important that people read her words for themselves-especially during this election year.
http://mdjonline.com/view/full_story/5593847/article-Cox-talks-tests–tougher-math–and-minorities?
Elsie
January 27th, 2010
4:40 pm
If I’m understanding correctly, part of Maureen’s objection to a vo-tech track is the assumption that vo-tech will be less academically rigorous. Why must the two go hand-in-hand? Why not have a challenging vo-tech curriculum? She uses the example of needing high literacy skills to understand a technical manual- so why not offer a “technical reading” course rather than literature? Informational text is not given equal time (based on my admittedly limited observations at one school), yet it’s actually a much more critical skill to everyday life than comprehending Shakespeare or Beowulf. I believe that the same concept could be applied to higher math and science courses, where the content would still be academically challenging, but taught from a practical application POV rather than the theoretical POV traditionally used in college prep courses.
Come to think of it, it wouldn’t hurt us to re-think a lot of our high school courses for practical application- one of the keys to remembering something is understanding how that new content fits into your existing schema.
JMHO.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
4:45 pm
E,
With all due respect, have you actually looked at the new math standards lately(the GPS for the class of 2012 and beyond–not the old QCCs)?
Students are failing in record numbers, because they are pushing college level math down 10th graders throats. They have not been properly scaffolded for this new curriculum and the state has definitely put the cart before the horse.
Further, being able to determine the best price on a box of cereal is a skill you would learn in a money management class (ie unit prices), not upper level algebra.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
4:53 pm
One more thing– under the old system there was something called a CP with distinction. (college prep with distinction). No more. Now everyone will earn a “diploma.” Wow.
Georgia Teacher
January 27th, 2010
5:05 pm
John,
You are on the money.
Maureen,
I suggest you go and visit one of the high schools that does a senior project and see what some of the kids are doing that does not require a college education. In fact, I invite you to come judge my students when they do their senior boards in May. Send me an e-mail and I will set it up.
The reality of the situation is many students don’t want to go to college. They want to work on cars. They want to own a landscaping business. They want to be carpenters. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Why are we wasting their time and our money preparing them for something they don’t want or need?
Elsie
January 27th, 2010
5:05 pm
Pay attention:
Please understand that I was in no way endorsing the recent math disasters. The lack of scaffolding is appalling, and your frustration is completely justified.
What I am suggesting that designing a vo-tech curriculum should not have to mean it is less rigorous, just presented differently. I would take your idea one step further- why not teach “Math for Running a Small Business”? Why should that be less valid or challenging than Algebra 2? We’ve blogged on numerous occasions about the disconnect between students and content; students don’t understand where they will use the information, and we – all of us- haven’t done a superb job of explaining relevance to them. In this utopia I’m proposing
, students would understand the applications daily, rather than just on the day that a guest speaker can visit.
Attentive Parent
January 27th, 2010
5:14 pm
Pay Attention-
The learning tasks in the Instructional Frameworks are not an efficient way to learn the math content in the GPS. It’s not sequential and there’s no way to correct misunderstandings. Many high schools have said they use the Frameworks as the curriculum, not the GPS or the textbooks. Reports are that the math EOCTs are being based in the IF.
You are right that they’ve pulled into too many college topics but “discovery” learning simply means confused students in most instances. We should NOT have a state mandated math curriculum that’s only accessible to math geniuses and students whose parents have hired tutors or can teach their own children at night.
Excellence for All may sound good but in practice this curriculum seems to mean excellence only for those with parents who step in. That’s not what public education should be about.
College Math Professor
January 27th, 2010
5:23 pm
Pay attention,
Excuse me, but nothing in the GPS is “college level” math – they may be preparing for students to take their first (real) college level math, which should be Calculus I or above.
Special Ed
January 27th, 2010
5:23 pm
@E:
How can you say our current Math and English standards “don’t require all that much?” I can personally attest to the fact that my students with disabilities in 9th-10th grade are challenged to do harder math than I was in college. While my degree was not math heavy, the core Algebra course was very rigorous. Many fellow students failed and had to repeat the course (if that’s any indication). The curriculum in Math I and Math II is very challenging to the average student. Now, imagine doing this with a learning disability. As far as English goes, that isn’t my department, but I know the students are held to high standards. It isn’t just about reading for information…it’s about digging deep and interpreting literature which may mean nothing to you.
majii
January 27th, 2010
5:30 pm
Cere,
Monroe County has the Youth Apprenticeship Program (YAP) that operates in a manner similar to the ones you describe that are available in the Midwest and New England. Many of the students who participate in this program are hired by participating companies after they graduate. One of the problems the school has had with this program was finding students who wanted to participate in it. The school also has excellent automotive, engineering, and building construction courses and programs. Students have an opportunity to become certified in some occupational areas before completing high school but not the will to discipline themselves to master the material and take the required tests.
Whose choice?
January 27th, 2010
5:37 pm
I just wonder how we are going to make sure that it will be students who will be making the choices, not parents, teachers, principals, or anyone else. Or, are we talking about screening tests that will put low achieving kids into the vocational track, purely based on their performances?
Maureen Downey
January 27th, 2010
5:38 pm
Georgia Teacher, I have seen senior project presentations but would happily attend your school’s program. In reading your comment, I did a quick Internet search on tips for people who want to be landscapers. I read about seven sites, and almost every one suggested college training to develop the advanced skills to make the better money. I also found this, which I thought was interesting:
jim d
January 27th, 2010
5:55 pm
The AVERAGE yearly salary for plumbers in 2008 was $49,200, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. Keep in mind that apprentices start work at half the salary earned by experienced workers. You can expect to receive raises throughout your training though, often every six months.
The AVERAGE yearly salary for electricians in 2008 was $49,890, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. Keep in mind that apprentices start work at 40 to 50 percent of the salary earned by experienced workers. You can expect to receive raises throughout your training though, often every six months.
AVERAGE: a single value (as a mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general significance of a set of unequal values
In other wordsthis means 50% make MORE
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
6:11 pm
College Math Professor,
There are certainly concepts in the GPS that at least at one time were reserved for college level courses. (ie the statistics units in the new math curriculum certianly delve into concepts that were at least at one time reserved for college level statistics courses.
Just curious, vo-tech aside, why does a student need calculus if they want to be a lawyer, a professional sales rep or a first grade teacher?
I have survived quite nicely without it, and I have a masters degree and have found success in my field.
Tonya
January 27th, 2010
6:18 pm
jimd:
And the 50% who make less are probably the least experienced in the field.
math teacher
January 27th, 2010
6:56 pm
Pay Attention:
I don’t see how you can criticize the inclusion of statistics if you are for more practical mathematics. Students will need statistics much more than trig once they leave schools.
There is no calculus in the GPS.
jim d
Your statement is only true if “Average” in this context is the median, not the mean. “Average” is not a mathematical term, and there are different types of “representative value” – you probably heard of “mean, median, and mode.” If these figures are the mean, then it is possible that more than 50% of people making less than this amount.
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
7:14 pm
Math teacher,
I am not criticizing the inclusion of statistics, I am simply stating that it is included in the curriculum.
College Math professor stated that Calc I should be the first math course for college students, thus my question about its relevance for non-math and science majors.
Cere
January 27th, 2010
7:15 pm
I’ve made this observation about the south from my 25 years living here — it’s still a pretty darn segregated place. Not so much racially anymore – as class and income. There is a large upper-crust “aristocracy” that is a carryover in thinking from Antebellum days (IMO) and an equally large “servant” class. But the middle class is weak and thin. There is really not much of a middle class at all.
I think you can’t truly be a great and successful state unless you have a bell curve that is healthy and tall in the middle. And Maureen – the people who attend (good) VoTech programs, work in working class professions and build a strong economy with better balance. It’s a necessary social change in addition to a change in delivery of education. I think the people who fight creating really good middle class opportunity are afraid of the social change. They don’t want the lower class moving up – earning more – or God forbid – organizing unions! But worse, they don’t want the horror of their children moving down in social status. And let’s face it – you can’t pay for private schools and country clubs unless you can get good, cheap help elsewhere.
rosie
January 27th, 2010
7:19 pm
The high school diploma in Georgia is worthless. In order to accurately calculate the drop out rate one must also consider the number of students graduating from high school, but not allowed to enroll in regular courses at a university or technical college because they can’t make the scores on the entrance exam. I’m not just talking remedial, but also GED level courses. If you graduate from high school and need to take GED courses to get into college, you are a dropout with a meaningless diploma.
rosie
January 27th, 2010
7:25 pm
Maureen,
Georgia teacher referenced students wanting to OWN his/her landscaping business. A general laborer probably makes $11-$13 per hour, but I suspect the owner makes more. $11-$13 per hour is not so bad for general labor/grass cutter/edger/trimmer.
math teacher
January 27th, 2010
7:46 pm
Pay Attention,
I think inclusion of statistics in HS (and earlier) for all students is a good thing. Don’t you?
I don’t know of any colleges that require calculus from non-math/sci students. I don’t get your question when you ask this question in the context of criticizing the GPS.
A lot of college math professors consider math courses below calculus I (and maybe including intro stat) to be “remedial” math. They may count for non-math/sci majors, but they certainly don’t consider those as “college level” math courses.
Old School
January 27th, 2010
7:55 pm
I’m suggesting not just more than one diploma, let’s have 3 charter schools in one high school.
The college prep school would offer coursework designed to prepare students for university level studies. They’d have the literature, psychology, foreign languages, etc.
The vocational school would also have a rigorous curriculum but its math would be geared to specific training areas (automotive, metals, construction, drafting, medical, etc) with personal finance, entrepreneurship, and the like thrown in. Language arts would be offered in a lab situation with 10th, 11th and 12th graders together. They would study grammar, business communications, technical writing, reading (technical manuals and training literature).
The third track would be for special needs and coursework would be tailored to their specific needs and abilities. Their participation in either of the other two schools would depend on careful matching needs/abilities/capabilities.
All three schools would overlap in fine arts and physical education. A ninth grade academy might also be a good idea if students can be retained until they prove they have mastered the basics of reading, writing, and math and top students could test out if space in the other schools is available. Industrial Arts would be offered in the 9th grade for those considering the vocational track as it always was an excellent course and should never have been dropped.
Finally, allow schools systems to tailor the vocational coursework to industries and businesses in the surrounding area. We’ve had industry advisory committees for years and they tell us what they need in a worker. The state has gutted many of our programs and eliminated skills that are still vital to employers. For instance, I could put students to work in with a light steel fabricator but there are no standards anymore for Structural Design and I’m not allowed to teach anything that has no state written standards.
I’ve sung this song so many times before. I guess it takes a different voice to actually get the words heard. Thanks, Mr. Konop, for reminding me of what we’ve lost in Georgia education. I’m just glad I got to teach during the heyday of vocational education.
Okay, that’s just my opinion. Let the bashing begin (even though I am NOT whining… just offering food for thought.)
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john konop
January 27th, 2010
8:00 pm
math teacher
YOU SAID;
….I think inclusion of statistics in HS (and earlier) for all students is a good thing. Don’t you?….
NO:
Let me help you with math! Right now around 40 to 50% of kids are dropping out! Another large % has been passed along via waivers from Kathy Cox and if they graduate with a GED or anything they have no real life skills to bargain with.
If you ever really took statistics and understood concepts taught in the classes, like research methods, you would know any rational professor would flunk you on thinking increasing math standards would help the above problem.
Do you think any rational person who understands statistic and research methods would think your idea has any merit?
john konop
January 27th, 2010
8:07 pm
Math Teacher:
BTW what would scare me more would be you teaching statistics if this is your understanding as to how to apply the subject based on what you learned in school!
Old School
January 27th, 2010
8:07 pm
Maureen, dig my post out of the filter! I’d love to hear from Mr. Konop and find out what he thinks of my basic ideas.
math teacher
January 27th, 2010
8:26 pm
Mr. Konop,
I don’t think there is much in terms of research design in intro stat. Even AP stat will include only basic inferential statistics – things like confidence intervals – at most.
You mean, just look at what jim d said about “average.” Don’t you think well educated citizens, no matter what their vocation may be, to know the difference of mean and median?
pay attention folks
January 27th, 2010
8:33 pm
Off topic, but of interest to many….
possible legislation for a mandatory Sept. 1 or later school start date…
http://www.ciclt.net/sn/leg/l_detail.aspx?ClientCode=gssa&L_ID=357491&L_State=ga&L_Session=2009-2010
ScienceTeacher671
January 27th, 2010
8:34 pm
I’m probably at the top 25% of the salary scale for teachers in my area, but I still make less than an industrial maintenance mechanic who has been working for a similar amount of time…and who might need tech school but doesn’t need college. It used to be possible in my area to obtain a tech school certification and a high school diploma simultaneously, but it isn’t now. I think that’s a step backwards.
Ask the students. The students I teach are those who would have received “general” and “basic” diplomas some years back. They think it’s crazy that our schools don’t implement a European style program that would allow some students to go directly to work or an apprenticeship after 8th grade, others to go to technical school, and those with the inclination and ability to attend a college preparatory high school — but they would love to have those options.
ScienceTeacher671
January 27th, 2010
8:35 pm
Maureen! Why does the blog monster love my posts so much???
Kevin Wood
January 27th, 2010
8:42 pm
Mr. Konop & Mrs. Downey,
Thank you for posting this debate. I work in a large metro high school and the new one size fits all graduation requirements stifle our students to control their own learning. Combined with the new math curriculum and our students and parents have very little say in their high school education. I fully support this bill. The REAL graduation rate is far lower than what is published in the media or in official reports. Many students “disappear” from the official record. The new math curriculum is intensifying the drop out rate as 40-50% of first time 9th graders fail the course.
john konop
January 27th, 2010
8:59 pm
math teacher,
The proper way to study this issue would be based on appropriate sub groups ie gifted, college bound, and drop-outs……….
And than you would compare the study groups; for example if you look at wages and cost of a drop-out verse a kid graduating with life skills but non college bound curriculum……
Also a major key would be understanding overriding data points that drive results. We call this weighting in a scoring model.
For example:
Students coming from a supportive home, students seeing the education related to a job, especially low income…….
That is why anyone looking at this problem can see the drop-out % and pass along kids with no skills is the biggest issue!
john konop
January 27th, 2010
9:05 pm
math teacher,
BTW math teacher Kathy Cox claims the math curriculum is about applying it to the real world. Is it not ironic her new math curriculum fails the concept of real world application to solving the drop-out problem? As I said, she would get an F for application of usage of statistics in real research methods class!
teacher/parent
January 27th, 2010
9:41 pm
@rosie-Your thoughts about the real value of a GA high school are diploma are right on . . . and terrifying. If our sole job as K-12 teachers is to prepare students to go to college (and I do NOT believe it is), then the issue you raise needs to be addressed. How can we say ‘higher standards’ when we’re not graduating students who actually meet the current standards. I have a great idea-let’s cut funding for education, lower teacher morale with more furloughs, then only give the teachers merit pay if the students they taught x number of years ago graduate from college, since that’s the end-all/be-all.
teacher/parent
January 27th, 2010
9:46 pm
@Old School-You’re a genius. However, there are two things standing in the way of your dream coming true: money and the fact that it makes sense (that’s just not how things are done ya’ know)
john konop
January 27th, 2010
9:50 pm
Old School,
I agree! Good idea! Technical/vocational colleges being part of the course design starting in 7th grade would also help. They are required to meet job placement rates as well graduation rates to remain in good standing. Because of this they do a good job of keeping pace of the real needs of employers.
Also we would be using our resources more efficiently if we could drop the walls between the public schools and technical/vocational colleges in a time when money is very tight.
john konop
January 27th, 2010
9:52 pm
ScienceTeacher671
Thank you for teaching our kids!
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rosie
January 27th, 2010
10:16 pm
Parent/Teacher-
You are correct in saying our goal is not for every student to go to college, but our goal is to make sure students exit high school prepared for post-secondary which is college, tech college or work. Our current high school diploma does not ensure students are ready for post-secondary. Our current education system is nothing more than a game some are trying to master by making up the rules as they play. Some have been around the block a few times, learned to break a few rules and haven’t gotten caught.
Public School Parent
January 27th, 2010
10:23 pm
This was said several times but is worth repeating. The flaw in Ms. Downey’s counterargument is that she presumes that a vo-tech curriculum is always less rigorous than a college prep curriculum. That may be so in some vo-tech programs but can and should be remedied. A top notch vo-tech curriclum will be different from the traditional college prep curriculum but it does not have to be less rigorous. In fact, many technology curriculums could be more rigorous, but simply taught in a more practical and less theoretical manner.
North GA H.S. Math Teacher
January 27th, 2010
10:45 pm
I have taught this new math curriculum for the past 2 years. I’ve taught Math I, Accelerated Math I, and Accelerated Math II. Even some of the strongest math students are struggling with this new math curriculum. I have been teaching for almost 15 years and I tell you we are in trouble unless something is done soon.
This curriculum was obviously constructed by College Math professors and probably high school math teachers that did not teach anything lower than AP Calculus. If you take a group of highly educated academics that LOVE mathematics, you might get the curriculum we are currently forced to teach. When we finally fix this curriculum (and I hope we will soon) I hope they think to included those of us who have taught both those who love math and those who do not.
Thanks J.K. for informing us about this bill and I will be calling to support it. Give ALL kids a chance.
Whose choice
January 28th, 2010
7:27 am
A couple of people raised this question, but no one seems to be answering it. I get the feeling that there are different assumptions about this question. I’m not even sure if it will be a choice – it’s going to be decided by some forms of testing. It is a way to keep those disadvantaged in their place.
john konop
January 28th, 2010
9:03 am
Whose choice,
First how can it get ant worse when you combine the drop out rate with the Kathy Cox give a degree with no life skills for is way over 60% of students?
As I said would it not be better the kid has a job with a skill instead of being in prison, a gang, looking for work with no skills……
Next, kids who take this path will have skills that will likely get them a job, they could and some will go on and get more education. The JC system was set up to accommodate kids that did not meet all the requirements before entering 4 year degree program.
Finally many people take a different path in education even with a college degree based on life circumstances. I have a degree in City planning not business and had to re-educate myself for my job. I have a good friend who graduated from technical college and his first job was a cameraman for CNN. And now he is a doctor.
At the end day the choice will be made I am sure from a combination of reality issues the student and parent must face ie financial concerns, job market, aptitude….. While no system will be perfect the student will always have an opportunity to grow if they want to!
john konop
January 28th, 2010
9:11 am
Whose choice,
First how can it get ant worse when you combine the drop out rate with the Kathy Cox give a degree with no life skills, it is way over 60% of students in the trouble zone!
As I said would it not be better the kid has a job with a skill instead of being in prison, a gang, looking for work with no skills……
Next, kids who take this path will have skills that will likely get them a job, they could and some will go on and get more education. The JC system was set up to accommodate kids that did not meet all the requirements before entering 4 year degree program.
Finally many people take a different path in education even with a college degree based on life circumstances. I have a degree in City planning not business and had to re-educate myself for my job. I have a good friend who graduated from technical college and his first job was a cameraman for CNN. And now he is a doctor.
At the end day the choice will be made I am sure from a combination of reality issues the student and parent must face ie financial concerns, job market, aptitude….. While no system will be perfect the student will always have an opportunity to grow if they want to!