A civil discourse: Choice, charters and money

***I recall reading a piece of research years ago that stated that if a child is exposed to two consecutive years of poor teaching that you will start to see full grade levels of negative academic achievement show up with the student. Assuming that to be accurate, I think we have a long way to go on the issue of teacher quality.***

Why is it we never, ever, read about research that shows the effect of students being exposed to chronically disruptive classmates, and the effect they have on learning when they aren’t removed from the regular classroom environment?

Maybe that would require an honest discussion that our society lacks the will to tackle.

And when it comes to lacking the will to tackle, how many reforms would truly be needed if we as a society were willing to place the primary responsibility for learning on the student? You know, like what’s going to happen in the real world when they grow up.

• Link
• Report this comment

No, no, no, you folks don’t understand the root cause of the problems in the least! Here are the facts : The Georgia legislature is always careful not to spend much on education is because they know if the general population ever becomes well read, too many will develop the ability to figure out what really goes on under the gold dome and an angry mob with pitchforks and torches will chase the legislators all the way to the Alabama border.

• Link
• Report this comment

School systems are very political machines that control huge sums of money. You can dictate curriculum, furloughs, tests, transportation, etc. and the districts will grin and bear it. Mess with the money and they will declare war. Money is power… I would love for a charter to open in my county. The current system is outright ineffective. There are far too many chronically disruptive children who cannot be held accountable for their actions (if the district expels them, then they lose money…the common theme here). Also, the pay scale for teachers is crazy. I see people with Bachelor’s degrees and 5 years experience doing a bang up job for 40 grand a year and people with Specialists and Doctorates with 20 years doing a pitiful job for nearly twice that. That would not fly outside of government jobs. I went and received a higher degree…learned little, but received a great pay raise. Go figure.

• Link
• Report this comment

Social comments and analytics for this post…

This post was mentioned on Twitter by TrumpNetFlorida: “Choice, charters and money” http://tinyurl.com/ycswwdk…

• Link
• Report this comment

Kathy Cox is not responsible for the salary schedules that are based on years of experience and advanced degrees. This system of compensation has been in place long before Kathy Cox became Supt. I believe that choice should be allowed within school districts. If a parent in the northern part of a county wants to drive their child to the fair south western part of the district to attend that school, more power to them. As a public school educator, I would welcome the opportunity to be able to use the competitive aspect to push teachers and students to achieve and get better at our stated goal of preparing kids for high school and beyond. The danger of charters is minimal. It is about funding models. Perhaps, Governor Purdue needs to push his funding model changes more and not so much the Charter commission. In addition, charter schools have much more sway and impact in states where teacher’s unions play a role in contracts. In those states, the charter school gives the teachers and adminstration flexibility around the collective bargaining agreements. In Georgia, the DOE is willing to grant to waiver requests that are well substantiated to traditional schools around class size, instructional time, course titles, and the like that there is little incentive for traditional schools to push charters if they are savvy enough to know what to reform and how to do it. The problems lie in the fact that traditional schools, administrators, and districts are not reform minded.

• Link
• Report this comment

[...] Fla. — Cousteau to join proposed charter advisory group (Marco Island Sun Times) Ga. — A civil discourse: Choice, charters and money (Atlanta Journal Constitution) Mass. — Legislature pushes education overhaul (Boston Globe) Mass. [...]

• Link
• Report this comment

Ray,

You can always build school – it only takes money. However, hiring good teachers isn’ that easy. Just look at our schools today – they are full of “not-so-good” teachers because they can’t find good ones (or in some cases because they can’t get rid of them).

An easy way to make the local school board to approve more charter schools is if each charter school will bring more money to the system (beyond running that particular school) from the state. As long as you have the same amount of money that has to be divided up by yet another school, the system will not likely to support it. But, if they bring more money, they will be begging people to start charters.

• Link
• Report this comment

These school adminstration nimrods – women – are more concerned with the cost of a box of Honeycomb at their local Kroger than they are about teaching. Just a misguided group of gossiping hippos!

• Link
• Report this comment

Lynn,

“Thinking outside the box (and acting outside the box) is very difficult for school systems, especially large ones. Most school systems struggle mightily with moving away from the whole one size fits most paradigms.”

I agree with you on that point. Perhaps the answer in the larger districts is for them to truly decentralize management within their districts. In other words, most large districts have Area Superintendents that are responsible for enough schools that in and of themselves rival the size of some smaller districts. Perhaps it makes sense to truly empower those Assoc Superintendents with an ability to run their “zones” like mini school districts. It is not uncommon for these smaller “zones” to have student demographics that are significantly different from the demographics of students in other parts of the larger school district. So clearly in cases like that, a one size fits all does not make sense when looking at the district as a whole. However, if you break them into zones then perhaps the traditional systems can come a bit closer to meeting the needs of the diverse set of students that they serve. Also, in order for something like this to work, it would need to be more than just evident on an org chart. It would have to be sold to parents such that they know that their area Supt is their first point of contact for “system” level issues. And when parents go to their Assoc Supt, that individual truly has authority and autonomy to make decisions and run their “zone” with a level of autonomy that allows them to be effective in meeting the unique needs of the area they are responsible for. These Assoc Supt should also conduct area Board meetings in the specific area that they serve so that the constituents in that area can attend and hear about and discuss issues that specifically pertain to their area. Afterall, it is not uncommon for these Assoc Supt, to leave large districts like Cobb, Gwinnett, Fulton to take on jobs as Superintendents of smaller school districts, so clearly, in some cases they are capable of governing like a Superintendent. Most people have no clues what Assoc Supts do and wonder why they are paid as much money as they make, so this would give them an opportunity to be more visible to the people they are supposed to serve, and it gives them an opportunity to prove why they are deserving of the salaries that they receive.

• Link
• Report this comment

Maureen! Is there any information about how the state board set the Math I and II cut scores last week, and are we going to discuss that?

Also could you check the filters? Thanks!

• Link
• Report this comment

Mo can you set me free over on ——School boards: Charter school law violates constitution

• Link
• Report this comment

Nate: Here are the answers to your questions:
l. A ‘regular ed’ or any other kind of ed student enrolled in a traditional public school who attends a charter makes NO change in the state funding to the school district. There is, of course, an impact on the school from which the student enrolls. The school has anticipated this student’s attendance, has staffed it with teachers, one of which is expected to teach the student, signed a contract with those teachers, and then the student doesn’t appear. So the state funding which included that student’s part of the teacher salaries remains unavailable to the sending school, a negative impact. This same negative impact occurs when students enroll in another traditional school without notifying the previous school prior to the school district signing contracts with its teachers, now required by law by April 15 of the prior spring.

2. A ‘regular ed’ student previously entrolled in a private school attends a charter school. The state funding for that student goes to the district which must send it to the charter school. There is no impact on any traditional school because it didn’t know of the student’s existence. This is true of any private school student or any home school student who comes into the public school system, and charter schools are public schools.

3. A ’special ed’ student previously enrolled in a traditional public school attends a charter school. Same answer as #1. However, since ’special ed’ students are fewer in number, the hit to the traditional public school is more drastic. If several of these higher-costs-to-education students leave, it may require some type of reduction in force during the school year, which is emotionally upsetting to the remaining students some of which are quite fragile.

4. A ’special ed’ student previously enrolled in a private school attends a charter school. Same answer as #2. Charter schools, however, are less likely because of their generally smaller enrollment base to have special ed teachers on staff. Enrollments of these students may require hiring of a teacher which must be done with their current state allotment. Special ed teachers, particularly, are in very short supply. Any year’s education appropriation is done with the student counts from the previous year. This makes any kind of mobility a challenge for managing a school and a school district.

5. An at home schooled student previously attends a charter school. I think this means a former home school student. See answer to #2.

6. A mild case (i.e. student deemed to require less than $10K to be educated in trad setting) special needs student elects the Special needs voucher. While the costs of the students education may be $10K, the state money that follows the student is less than that, probably about half, and it varies depending on the school system from which the student transfers. The parents must give up their rights to a special education, which gets the receiving school off the hook for those costs. The traditional school must do the special need identification before the special needs voucher can be claimed, which is a long and extensive process. The traditional school, and school district, loses the money for that child’s component of the teacher costs, which had been assumed to be coming to the district/school, so that local taxes must continue to cover those costs of a teacher under contract. Also, the private school receiving the student may be a religious school, incorporating religion into their school day. This means your tax money and mine are paying for a particular religious education which seems to be prohibitied by the state constitution. Further, the receiving school does not have to teach the curriculum, administer state required tests, report their expenditures for these students to the state, or in any way be accountable for the state funds they receive.

7. A severe case (i.e. student deemed to require more than $25K to be educated in trad setting) special needs student elects the special needs voucher. Same answer as #6, just that the financial impact is greater on the traditional school. BTW, students are classified as special ed because of their disability, not by how much it costs. The federal law required a ‘free and appropriate’ education, FAPE, to the student by the public schools receiving public funds.

8. As a state we max out the tax scholarship amount which I believe is $50 million. The $50 million does not apply to special education vouchers, but to donations to school scholarship organizations. The practice of the state appropriation is to include all education dollars in the amount they want to appropriate for schools. So $50 million [or any other amount] allowed for school scholarship donations is $50 million [or any other amount] NOT provided to public schools. It could come out of any line item in the budget. Again, the school scholarships awarded are to private schools which do not have to teach the state curriculum, do not have to hire certified teachers, and may imbed religion into the school day. Also they do not have to test the students on the state tests and do not have to report how they spend state dollars or school scholarship dollars which were allowed to reduce a tax liability of the donor. No accountability for tax funds received. What other state appropriations do the tax payers allow absolutely no accountability for how it was spent and what the results of those expenditures produced? Are public school upset at the two tiered governance imposed for the expenditure of state money? You betcha’.

####

• Link
• Report this comment

No matter what the “statistical data” purports to show, the U.S. has fallen well behind most of the civilized world in education. If the situation is ever to improve, the destructive insanity of “social engineering” MUST be done away with. A few years ago, I met a beautiful and charming young lady from Eastern Europe and was quite shocked at her superb capabilities in all areas of academics – her grasp of English is wonderful (better than mine). I asked which country she was from. When she told me, she asked, “do you know where it is?”. I replied, “yes, I certainly do”. Of all the Americans she had met, I was the ONLY one who had been able to explain where her country is located. When others said they had no clue where her country is, she would reply, “you know very well it’s in the heart of Africa!”. To hide their ignorance, they would nod in agreement and say, “oh, that’s right”. I asked about her level of education and she informed me she was a high school graduate…I patiently waited to hear which universities she had attended and what degrees she had earned, but she had never stepped foot in a university. At about the same time, my sister’s “nearly perfect and absolutely brilliant” eldest son had been selected to receive a Rhodes Scholarship, so I arranged for an unbiased duel of academic skills to take place (both parties are approximately the same age). The young lady’s vastly superior capabilities left my nephew very red faced, teary eyed, and embarrassed. My nephew is now a professor at Saint Hugh’s College at Oxford University. The young lady, “Joana” (almost thirty years my junior), is now my wife and a practicing attorney in Europe and she has earned multiple advanced degrees from Babes-Bolyai University, Cluj-Napoca, Romania (where her great grandfather, Hermann Oberth, “The Father of Rocketry”, earned a doctorate). Not knowing much about my wife’s family before meeting them, I was proud to discover her father is a general surgeon and her mother is a family practitioner – the family places a high value on education. “Joana” has no intention of returning to this country (”America is no longer a decent place to live or raise children” – I concur). My “brilliant” nephew must be awfully busy with his professorship, when my wife and I stop by his flat to visit, we’re informed he’s not available – surely he has recovered from his embarrassment by now…In most Eastern European countries, students are offered a choice. They can either be quiet and studious in class and endeavor to become highly competent in academics, or go out and try to find a job. Those who are disruptive are expelled on the second offense – no exceptions and no chance of ever returning. Once a student is expelled, his education has gone as far as it ever will. In Eastern Europe, do they offer free breakfast and lunch for the “disadvantaged”? NOPE! Free tuition and books past grade five in public schools? NOPE! “Welfare”, “food stamps”, and “Section 8 housing”? No way – find a job! Many countries in Eastern Europe are also in the process of doing away with “socialized medicine”, they have discovered it is simply unworkable. Those people survived and defeated Marxism/socialism/communism and they’re determined to move forward, not backward! In the meantime, America, blinded by “political correctness”, has lost her way. My grandmother, who was born in the 1870’s, received the majority of her education from “The Original Blue Back Speller”, written by Noah Webster. Grandmother understood the master plan for success in life – “Root hog, or die poor!”. In other words, “get off your whiny behind and make something of yourself, or starve!”. Once the school systems of Georgia finally embrace that simple concept, all the so called “complicated problems” will suddenly vanish.

• Link
• Report this comment

Ga Teacher, you are right on regarding the schools of education. My undergrad degree is in history, not the hardest of majors, but still more difficult than T4 certification, which I obtained several years after my undergrad degree, or my masters in education. I believe that there are just too many schools of education and many of them will take anyone who applies. I know people who have received degrees in education who cannot construct a coherent sentence. As for those with specialist and doctoral degrees, I think that if the degrees come from respectable schools such as the state’s research universities, the degree holders should receive some extra compensation. Unfortunately, many of those degrees come of a roll with a donation of $15-20,000. Our legislature has tried to restrict these by refusing to accept degrees from certain schools, but then more schools just seem to pop up. I am from a small district. At one time, we have 5-6 people with Ed.D.’s from UGA and Georgia State and may 15-20 with specialist degrees from those schools, West Georgia and North Georgia. Most of those folks have now retired and we are left with folks with degrees from Nova, Phoenix and LMU, and these are our leaders. Yikes!!

Shannon, M.Div., I agree with you that this is not a school problem. It is a societal problem. The fact that many of my colleagues take shortcuts to obtain advanced degrees is just an example of what is happening in the larger community. Most of these people are decent folks who want better for themselves and their children, they’re just not willing to sacrifice for it. We, as individuals and as a society, are no longer willing to wait for something better. And, we want it given to us; we do not want to earn it.

Now, if all the people who think public schools are such disasters and who think they know how to fix them would just put their money where their mouths are and get involved (become the great teachers that you expect for your children), maybe we would get the schools that we all want.

• Link
• Report this comment

Georgia’s schools are a COMPLETE DISASTER and every last one of the tired old excuses presented by career “educators” and career politicians have worn very thin! Don’t even bother to try and explain how your school is “just wonderful”, but “misunderstood”, those lies no longer fly!

• Link
• Report this comment

Teachers knew the approximate pay level of their chosen profession before they entered the field! Either you folks can teach effectively at your present salary level, or you are incompetent at any pay grade! Increased pay does not equate to increased performance! EVERYONE IS SICK OF HEARING ABOUT YOUR “LOW PAY”! “Waaaaaaaa, I could do a better job if I had more money! Waaaaa, waaaaaa, waaaaaa! GIMEEE, GIMEEE, GIMEEE! I deserve MORE! It’s not FAIR!”….TEACHERS NEED TO JUST GET OVER IT or FIND A NEW CAREER!

• Link
• Report this comment

Maureen…fair enough!

Reprise…

These school adminstration nimrods – women and men – are more concerned with the cost of a box of Honeycomb at their local Kroger than they are about teaching. Just a misguided group of gossiping hippos!

• Link
• Report this comment

My son went thru school under the IEP guidelines etc. I was present at every meeting and had to bascially bully some of those teachers into doing their jobs. Yes…just bully the hell out of them and force them to perform to the standards set forth via IEP.

Inept, lazy and stupid…

• Link
• Report this comment

Maureen, I just read your post about the Leadership degrees. I think it depends on the quality of the educational leadership program you are referring to. Many of the online programs I have personally observed do not offer the type of rigor that onsite programs offer. I attended a program that had courses that were up to date, informative, hands on, and quite prepared to offer the kind of content necessary for qualified leadership. I have several friends that have attended programs in some of the top universities in the country. Their experiences are similar. I think that your comment may be the result of so many of the online programs that do not offer the type of experiential training and hands on classes that are necessary for leadership training.

• Link
• Report this comment

There are many schools and teachers throughout Georgia that are committed to quality education. Educators prepare for many years for their professions and should be respected and commended for their hard work and dedication. Like any profession, there are some that are not effective in the implementation of their jobs. That is with all professions, all types of businesses. It is important that parents be informed and proactive in their child’s education to ensure that their child is well educated. In reference to Brown versus Board of Education, it was a monumental piece of legislation to ensure integration of all schools. Like PL 142, it has moved our nation forward. We will continue to advocate equality in education for all regardless of race, religion, handicap, sex, or national original.

• Link
• Report this comment

Everyone needs to understand the following information, it is extremely important. The “Communist Manifesto” has ten “planks” : “10. Free education for all children in public schools….” Public schools need to be abolished, they are the problem. Fifty five years ago, it was anticipated that “Brown vs. Board of Education” would increase the level of education available to certain groups, but it has seriously decreased accomplishment levels across the board. Being “politically correct” is a form of mental illness that begs to be abolished. Those of you who scream “RACISM” every time you don’t get your way are childishly delusional and “stuck in the 60’s”. If any of you, especially those such as “Carolyn”, have not read “The Ant and the Grasshopper”, I suggest you do so at this very instant. My First Amendment rights include the right to speak my mind, even if you strongly disagree with what I say…. The South African version of “The Ant and the Grasshopper” (readily adaptable to reflect current insane conditions in the U.S.A.)
The first part is the same as the original, but because it happens in South Africa there are a few complications…

“The starving, shivering offspring of the grasshopper demand to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while right next door they are living in terrible conditions, without food or proper clothing. A TV crew shows up and broadcasts footage of the poor grasshoppers, contrasting this footage with the ant, snug in his comfortable home with a pantry full of food. The public is stunned.
How can it be, in this beautiful field, that the poor grasshoppers are allowed to suffer so while the ant lives in the lap of luxury.
In the blink of an eye, SAGU (South African Grasshopper Union) is formed. They charge the ant with “species bias”, and claim that the grasshoppers are victims of 30 Million years of green oppression. The stage a protest in front of the ant’s house and trash the street. The TV crew interviews them, and they state that if all their demands are not met, they will be forced into a life of crime. Just for practice they loot the TV crew’s luggage and Hijack their van.
The TRC (Take and Redistribute Commission) justifies their behaviour by saying that this is a legacy of the ant’s discrimination and oppression of the grasshoppers. They demand that the ant apologies to the grasshopper for what they have done, and that he make amends for all the other ants in history that have done the same thing to the grasshoppers. PAGAD (People against Grasshopper Abuse and Distress) state that they are starting a holy war against the ants.
The president appears on the 8 o clock news, and says he will do everything for the grasshoppers that have been denied the prosperity they deserve by those who have benefited unfairly during the summer. The government drafts the EEGAD (Economic Equity for Greens and Disadvantaged) act retrospective to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to employ a proportionate number of green insects, and, having nothing left to pay his taxes, his home is confiscated by the government for redistribution.
The story ends as we see a grasshopper finishing off the last of the ants food while the government house he is in (which happens to be the ants old house) crumbles around him because he does not know how to maintain it.
Showing on the TV (which he and a couple of friends stole from another ant) the president is standing before a group of wildly singing and dancing grasshoppers announcing that the new era of “equality” has dawned on the field.
The ant, meanwhile, is not allowed to work, because he has historically benefited from the field. In his place, ten grasshoppers have been appointed to harvest the grass for the winter, but the grasshoppers only work 2 hours a day and steal half of what they actually harvest.
When winter comes again and not enough food has been harvested they strike and demand an 150% increase in their wages so that they can buy food, which now has to be imported because the grasshoppers are not productive enough to produce enough food locally.
The ant packs his things, and immigrates to another field where he starts a highly successful food company, and becomes a millionaire by selling food to the field where he came from.” This fable clearly explains what “Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 347 U.S. 483 (1954)”, was REALLY all about.

• Link
• Report this comment

Carolyn – If you truly believe “Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 347 U.S. 483 (1954)” has improved education for any group, please check yourself into a mental hospital right away.

• Link
• Report this comment

Unspoken truths – You are 100% correct. Government schools engender a mentality of “entitlement”, which must, along with the public schools, be abolished.

• Link
• Report this comment

Please forgive the off topic post but I’m hoping for some advice. After taking a few college courses over the past 15 years, I’m finally a full time student. I’m 36 yrs old and am thinking of becoming a teacher. Because of my lowered immune system, I have decided on middle school and because of my background and hobbies, I have determined computer teacher. I thought I had seen that as a degree option at UGA but cannot seem to find it, again.
Questions:
1) Does the computer teacher also teach other courses?
2) Is it required the other courses be science?
3) Is there a way to volunteer as a teacher’s assistant one day a week?
4) What advice or direction would you offer?

Thank you for your asssitance!

• Link
• Report this comment

I can’t reference any hard and fast data, only the common sense that says that homeschool and private school works, and works effectively for many, because people in general don’t make those kind of sacrifices for something that the government would otherwise provide, and for something they are still paying taxes for.

It’s amazing how simple it really can be for those who don’t have the benefit of thousands of hours of educational pedagogy, if they are only willing, like so many in the public schools aren’t, to hold the student primarily responsible for the student’s work.

For those who insist on riding the blame the teacher bandwagon above all else, look to other countries who are running circles around us.

If it’s always about the teacher’s performance, and never about the student’s performance like those on the blame the teacher bandwagon want to claim, why is it, when those teachers come to America, they don’t talk about the poor discipline and work habits of many American teachers, but instead talk about the poor discipline and work habits of many American students?

Unspoken truths, not spoken under the guise of being exceedingly polite.

• Link
• Report this comment

Nate,

don’t know if this really adddress’ you question about the lost funding—but the 800g that gwinnett is quibling over figures to be something like a trivial .00067% of their annual budget.

• Link
• Report this comment

Well, as far as private schools go, usually they outperform their public counterparts because the parents who are involved enough to spend thousands of dollars on their child’s education are the same parents who read to their children, encourage responsibility, engage their children, and everything else that comes with being a “good parent.” I am not saying that they are the only parents who do so, but if involved public school parents in bad school districts can afford private school, they usually pay up. Private schools can easily expel any child who inhibits the learning environment and they do not have to accept any special needs child that they do not have the resources to teach. If I could pick out the children with involved parents and get rid of the rest, my students would score in the top tenth percentile in everything and I teach in an inner-city school. Look, the reality of the situation is that our schools have far too many children whose parents are not doing what they are supposed to do, society dictates that every child is entitled to a public education regardless of whether they want it or not, and education is seen as the key to fixing societal ills when the problems in schools are merely a reflection of societal ills. It isn’t perfect, but on the bright side: most of us are products of public schools and the US continues to be a leading world power. It isn’t all bad either!

• Link
• Report this comment

Supposedly we have no idea if homeschool is effective. No idea at all.

Just like we have no idea, when we are in the bank, if that guy wearing a ski mask, holding a note in one hand, with his other hand hidden in his pocket, is really going to rob the bank, or if he just came in from the cold and needs a note because he has laryngitis.

But if we can at all avoid it, we sure don’t stick around to find out do we?

Unspoken truths.

• Link
• Report this comment

“African Architecture” ROFLMAO

Chapter One: Mud huts.

Chapter Two: blank

Chapter Three: blank

etc, etc, etc

• Link
• Report this comment

Joel,

You seem to assume that US education was ever that good. At least in math and science, they have been mediocre since the 60’s and probably before then, too.

• Link
• Report this comment

Reality2 – If U.S. education hadn’t been “that good”, the world wouldn’t have been trying to attend our universities.

• Link
• Report this comment

U.S. high schools pale in comparison to other countries, but other countries send their kids to U.S. colleges.

Gee, I wonder which of the two, high schools or colleges, places the responsibility for learning primarily on the student?

Unspoken truths

• Link
• Report this comment

Back at you, Cold splash of water to Kerry N. Persons considering a profession in teaching should possess the good sense to realize the stresses involved, after all, they have been students for quite a few years.

• Link
• Report this comment

It’s hard to believe that someone who accuses me of being hostile to research would disrespectfully refer to children as kids.

• Link
• Report this comment

child
n. pl. chil·dren
1.
a. A person between birth and puberty.
b. A person who has not attained maturity or the age of legal majority.

• Link
• Report this comment

Maureen doesn’t seem to understand the difference.

• Link
• Report this comment

Please don’t send your goats to school.

• Link
• Report this comment

Not we the young antelope, when the young antelope.

• Link
• Report this comment

Until the 1950’s, U.S. K-12 schools were most definitely world class. Now, government does nothing well. Why would any sane person willingly entrust the education of their precious children to known incompetents? I’m constantly amazed at how a family will spend thousands to fence their yard so a purebred dog will not roam the streets and mate with a mongrel, yet those same persons have no clue with whom their children are associating. Duh…

• Link
• Report this comment

Reality2, please note : Until you know the proper spelling of “losing”, please don’t attempt to give me a history lesson. Thank you.

• Link
• Report this comment

“Sisyphus” (SIS-i-fus)
“Sinner condemned in Tartarus to an eternity of rolling a boulder uphill then watching it roll back down again. Sisyphus was founder and king of Corinth, or Ephyra as it was called in those days. He was notorious as the most cunning knave on earth. His greatest triumph came at the end of his life, when the god Hades came to claim him personally for the kingdom of the dead. Hades had brought along a pair of handcuffs, a comparative novelty, and Sisyphus expressed such an interest that Hades was persuaded to demonstrate their use – on himself.
And so it came about that the high lord of the Underworld was kept locked up in a closet at Sisyphus’s house for many a day, a circumstance which put the great chain of being seriously out of whack. Nobody could die. A soldier might be chopped to bits in battle and still show up at camp for dinner. Finally Hades was released and Sisyphus was ordered summarily to report to the Underworld for his eternal assignment. But the wily one had another trick up his sleeve.

He simply told his wife not to bury him and then complained to Persephone, Queen of the Dead, that he had not been accorded the proper funeral honors. What’s more, as an unburied corpse he had no business on the far side of the river Styx at all – his wife hadn’t placed a coin under his tongue to secure passage with Charon the ferryman. Surely her highness could see that Sisyphus must be given leave to journey back topside and put things right.

Kindly Persephone assented, and Sisyphus made his way back to the sunshine, where he promptly forgot all about funerals and such drab affairs and lived on in dissipation for another good stretch of time. But even this paramount trickster could only postpone the inevitable. Eventually he was hauled down to Hades, where his indiscretions caught up with him. For a crime against the gods – the specifics of which are variously reported – he was condemned to an eternity at hard labor. And frustrating labor at that. For his assignment was to roll a great boulder to the top of a hill. Only every time Sisyphus, by the greatest of exertion and toil, attained the summit, the darn thing rolled back down again.” Eventually, the great boulder of poor education will roll down and crush our entire nation…

• Link
• Report this comment

I shall not apologize for any harsh comments I have left today. Unless people become angry or laugh, they soon stop concentrating on and lose interest in any topic. We must all endeavor to keep education in the forefront. Thank you all very kindly for your time, patience, and attention. God bless America!

• Link
• Report this comment

Neither the passage of time, nor the appearance of the term “kid” defined as a young person in a dictionary, makes the term any less disrespectful.

• Link
• Report this comment

Yes, I am “the evidence of the failure of the government schools” – and please don’t forget to blame the failure of Emory University. I hold both a “J.D.” and a “M.D.” from the school. Oh, and I also earned two degrees at a failed government operated trade school on North Avenue, a “B.A.” in human biology, and a “M.A.” in nuclear physics…

• Link
• Report this comment

I’m sorry. I suppose much of the failure of the U.S. government can be laid at the feet of my blood relatives. “The Adams family is a family of politicians from the United States. Below is a list of members.
Samuel Adams (1722-1803), delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention 1779 1788, Massachusetts State Senator 1781, candidate for U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1788, Lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts 1789-1794, Governor of Massachusetts 1793-1797. Second cousin of John Adams.
John Adams (1735-1826), Delegate to the Continental Congress from Massachusetts 1774-1778, U.S. Minister to the Netherlands 1781-1788, U.S. Minister to Great Britain 1785-1788, Vice President of the United States 1789-1797, President of the United States 1797-1801, delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention 1820. Second cousin of Samuel Adams.
Joshua Johnson, U.S. Consul to London, England 1790-1797. Father-in-law of John Quincy Adams.
Joseph Allen (1749-1827), delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention 1788, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1810-1811. Nephew of Samuel Adams.
John Quincy Adams (1767-1848), U.S. Minister to the Netherlands 1794-1797, U.S. Minister to Prussia 1797-1801, U.S. Minister to Russia 1809-1814, U.S. Minister to Great Britain 1815-1817, Massachusetts State Senator 1802, U.S. Senator from Massachusetts 1803-1808, U.S. Secretary of State 1817-1825, President of the United States 1825-1829, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1831-1848, candidate for Governor of Massachusetts 1838. Son of John Adams.
John Pope (1770-1845), Kentucky State Representative 1802 1806, U.S. Senator from Kentucky 1807-1813, Kentucky Secretary of State 1816-1819, Governor of Arkansas Territory 1829-1835, U.S. Representative from Kentucky 1837-1843. Brother-in-law of John Quincy Adams.
Benjamin Crowninshield (1773-1851), Massachusetts State Representative 1811, Massachusetts State Senator 1812, U.S. Secretary of the Navy 1815-1818, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1823-1831. Grandfather-in-law of John Quincy Adams.
William S. Smith (1755-1816), U.S. Representative from New York 1813-1815. Son-in-law of John Adams.
William Cranch (1769-1855), Judge of U.S. Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia 1801 1806. Nephew by marriage of John Adams.
Charles Allen (1797-1869), Massachusetts State Representative 1830 1833-1835 1840, Massachusetts State Senator 1836-1837, Judge of Court of Common Pleas in Massachusetts 1842-1845, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1849-1853, delegate to the Republican National Convention 1856, Superior Court Judge in Massachusetts 1859-1867. Son of Joseph Allen.
George Washington Adams (1801-1828), Massachusetts State Representative 1826. Son of John Quincy Adams.
Edward Everett (1794-1865), U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1825-1835, Governor of Massachusetts 1836-1840, U.S. Minister to Great Britain 1841-1845, U.S. Secretary of State 1852-1853, U.S. Senator from Massachusetts 1853-1854, candidate for Vice President of the United States 1860. Brother-in-law of Charles Francis Adams, Sr..
Charles Francis Adams, Sr. (1807-1886), Massachusetts State Representative 1831, Massachusetts State Senator 1835-1840, candidate for Vice President of the United States 1848, delegate to the Republican National Convention 1856, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1859-1861, U.S. Minister to Great Britain 1861-1868, candidate for Governor of Massachusetts 1876. Son of John Quincy Adams.
Alfred Cumming (1802-1873), Mayor of Augusta, Georgia 1836; Governor of Utah Territory 1858-1861. Great-grandson-in-law of Samuel Adams.
John Quincy Adams (1833-1894), Massachusetts State Representative 1866 1869, candidate for Governor of Massachusetts 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1879, candidate for Vice President of the United States 1872. Son of Charles Francis Adams, Sr..
William C. Lovering (1835-1910), Massachusetts State Senator 1874-1875, delegate to the Republican National Convention 1880, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1897-1910. Father-in-law of Charles Francis Adams III.
William Everett (1839-1910), U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1893-1895, candidate for Governor of Massachusetts 1897. Son of Edward Everett.
Brooks Adams (1848-1927), delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention 1917. Son of Charles Francis Adams, Sr..
Henry Cabot Lodge (1850-1924), Massachusetts State Representative 1880, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1887-1893, U.S. Senator from Massachusetts 1893-1924, delegate to the Republican National Convention 1924. Brother-in-law of Brooks Adams.
Charles Francis Adams III (1866-1954), Mayor of Quincy, Massachusetts 1896-1897; delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention 1917; U.S. Secretary of the Navy 1929-1933. Son of John Quincy Adams.
Thomas B. Adams (1910-1997), candidate for Democratic nominations for U.S. Senate from Massachusetts 1966, delegate to the Democratic National Convention 1972. Great-grandson of Charles Francis Adams, Sr..
William R. Merriam (1849-1931), Minnesota State Representative 1883 1887, Governor of Minnesota 1889-1893, delegate to the Republican National Convention 1896. Descendant of John Adams.
Eugene H. Nickerson (1918-2002), delegate to the Democratic National Convention 1972, Judge of U.S. District Court 1977. Descendant of John Adams.” This is only a partial list of the scoundrel politicians to whom I am directly related. Though I was once directly involved in politics, thank God no one has yet added my name to the “Wikipedia” list.

• Link
• Report this comment

I’ll be so proud when Puerto Rico becomes a state because then, Georgia will probably move up one spot in the education rankings.

• Link
• Report this comment

If you have had a renal allograft and you are taking immunosuppressant(s), just be careful not to touch your hands to your face and do your best to see that no sick child sneezes in your face and you should be fine. Many renal allografts are now lasting twenty five to forty years. Advanced therapies will soon result in preventing organ rejection altogether.

• Link
• Report this comment

If you tell them about the one kidney, regardless of how qualified you may be, you may very well find yourself out of the running, without knowing why.

Don’t ever make the mistake that because the primary focus is supposed to be helping children, that people in education have corned the market on acting ethical.

• Link
• Report this comment

Unspoken truths – On many occasions I assured my late father that it wasn’t my fault that I had failed a test or not done my homework, it was “that old dumb teacher” that was causing my problems. One of the most important skills I learned in high school was forging my father’s name to “deficiency slips” and other important documents. If I hadn’t, I probably wouldn’t be alive today.

• Link
• Report this comment

An interesting article
http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/k_v91/docs/k0912ri1.pdf

If we continue down the path of more and more testing, it really won’t matter if the school is charter or public.

• Link
• Report this comment

Joel you are a “degree” holding idiot. You are full of meaningless dribble. Futhermore, be careful about your “Brown vs. the Board of Education” comment. After reviewing your “blood” relatives, my family is researching the exact same family connection. I hope you are ready for your “Brown vs BOE” relatives. I am sure this made your day!

• Link
• Report this comment

After 100 comments I can’t tell if this discussion concerns charter schools or the two operating Charter Commission schools, which are the only two public schools the state funds differently from every other public school in Georgia.

Since APS, Gwinnett and Dekalb all have independent start-up charter schools (DeKalb even made The National Alliance for Public Charter Schools’ top 50 list for the 2008-09 school year) who are these school systems that oppose charter schools?

• Link
• Report this comment

Many of my friends have children who attend charter schools. They have positive experiences and enjoy personalized innovative education. These charters were developed by their communities. There is a danger I think in privatizing education. I do not believe that private companies should make a gain from education. I have been reading that the Ga Charter Commission has approved mostly private managed charter schools that are bilking our tax money. I think a better solution in approving charters should be that a standard for charter review be used for the entire state so that charters get a fair shake with the local boards. I do not want to see my tax money being used to fill the pockets of wealthy private management owners. Privatizing public education is not beneficial for proper use of our tax dollars. $$$$$$$$$$$$ = taxes

• Link
• Report this comment

Carolyn – if a Private charter school is takes the same amount of tax dollars as it’s neighbor public school and educates the kids as good or better than it’s neighbor public school then what does it matter if they make a profit or not? If a charter school can manage it’s money better than an equitable public school and still educate the kids the same or better then the manager / headmaster / whatever of that private charter school *deserves* to earn a good salary because they’re obviously doing something that their neighbor public school doesn’t have a clue how to do.

• Link
• Report this comment

James, I have always heard that Asian culture seems to value education more than Western culture does. Do you disagree? I’ve also heard that Asian culture puts a higher value on conforming to the rules, which implies less class disruption in large classes.

If smaller class sizes in upper grades have little or no effect, why do the “elite” private schools brag about their very small class sizes, and why are wealthy parents willing to pay very steep premiums for those tiny classes?

• Link
• Report this comment

Wow, the kiddies were out today…sick minds!!

• Link
• Report this comment

Could we get back to the original question of how the funds flow?

I was the “start-up charter board chair and mom” that both the Democrats and Republicans were willing to talk to during the legislative session that got the funding algorithm that is in the charter law. I understand it and it’s history, having been intimately involved in it’s passage. It is finally reasonably written, and the description of how the state funding drops given to you by SF is accurate. How the local funding should work (and how it is written in the law) sounds like it should be a straightforward ratio of FTE funding determined based on the student count and qualities(done the same was it is done for every other school) with the local tax monies figured as a the Charter school’s proportional share based upon a ratio of the state funding that school earned over the state funding the full system earned.

The problem is that no one in educational leadership can do math–so the systems all pretty much make up their own method and unless the school has technical expertise and the willingness to sue(and remember, we all had to make nice to these same folks to obtain a charter to begin with) the school takes what they are given. (usually with a good deal of resentment as it never will go far enough).

The huge carve out is facilities funding—the monopoly and farce that says that a public school must figure out how to open and exist ongoing without a publicly funded school building (which must meet all the codes etc.) It is also the main underling “additional fixed cost” that is vaguely referred to when the traditional system complains.

What I dislike is the way turf fighting distracts us from the fact that in Georgia, education is neither respected nor funded on either side of the Charter fence.

p.s. It took me years to figure out how this was supposed to work. If you want some ideas on how it is done, go to the charter site allotment sheets posted here and then come back with more questions.

http://app3.doe.k12.ga.us/ows-bin/owa/qbe_reports.public_menu?p_fy=2000

• Link
• Report this comment

Larry, your comment (”Ivy Prep, along with every other public school in Georgia, received full state funding last year”) is technically correct but totally misses the point. Yes, Ivy Prep received full state funding, and that funding only amounts to half or less of the funds per student that a traditional public school receives.

The Commission was created because the state (ie, the Governor, the State Board, the Department of Education and the Legislature – both parties!) is tired of local districts refusing to authorize charters. The state is also tired of districts not passing on full funding to charters.

I heard one applicant describe the process best: “It’s sort of like Burger King having to ask McDonald’s if they can open.” The existing process was strongly biased against supporting the creation of competition, choice and innovation permitted by law. So now there is a new authorizer (the Commission) and a new funding formula.

The state shook things up, as it is clearly permitted to do by the Georgia Constitution. That point is being litigated vigorously by both sides. I don’t thing there’s any arguing with the fact that the education of students in a primary responsibility of the state, and that the state can fulfill that responsibility through taxation and law.

• Link
• Report this comment

Larry,
1. You are correct. GCPS did make that determination and denied the Ivy Prep application. But it is simply short sided to believe that there was not additional bias against the applicant which unfairly influenced the Gwinnett Board’s ultimate decision to deny.

Also remember that the state board of education made the determination that the applicant was outstanding and should be approved. The only difference is that the school children, with only state approval, were funded well below their peers, making the case that the Ivy Prep students are worth about 40% of their peers.

The Georgia General Assembly and Governor Perdue passed HB881 rectifying this funding inadequacy by allowing Ivy Prep to seek Charter Commission approval and the fair and equitable funding the students deserve.

2. You should be very proud of your daughter’s accomplishments. If I had children, I would like for them to have the same level of achievement. I hope it follows her well into the future.

But what about the vast number of children in our state who struggle simply because their educational setting is regrettable or their “one size fits all” environment is not conducive to their learning style? In the case of Ivy Prep, some children attend because of the single gender setting. Others attend because the rigors at the school are substantially higher than the public schools they were previously attending. How about the parent who lives 30 miles away from work and Ivy Prep is right around the corner from their place of work? The parent likes the school setting and loves the fact that they can take their child to/from school every day and if an emergency pops-up, they are right around the corner and not 30 miles away. Who are we to handcuff those students and parents and prevent them from seeking the very best setting possible for their learning and living circumstances.

You and I seem to differ in our thoughts about school choice and its overall meaning to public education. I do not view charter schools as a panacea. I do view charter schools as a necessary reform model to provide parents and their children with public school choice, school districts with a healthy competition and communities with an outlet to seek a meaningful economic driver. As a general rule, local boards of education are NOT the mechanism to implement choice and competition. It goes against the laws of free trade. A company is not going to actively implement an entity which it views as competition. The Georgia Charter Schools Commission serves as an unbiased agency which does not have to deal with the local politics, district by district, implementing public school choice where needed.

• Link
• Report this comment

MMM, I agree that we need to get back to the question of how charter money flows. I thought that the Commission was supposed to be a solution to the problem many charters were having in getting approved. But looking more deeply into the Commission approved charters, it seems that there is a move to private enterprise in charters. Our state is experiencing some serious budget cuts. I have a problem in taking the money from public ed to give to private ventures. Is the Commission really the answer to helping charters grow in GA? I do not think so. We need to start some real dialogue to help legislators develop a standard in the charter process. Innovation is a good thing. Taking my taxes to give to private companies is not.

• Link
• Report this comment

mmm – thank you for the link that allows me to view the charter allotments.

• Link
• Report this comment

Carolyn, please name me a major vendor in public education which is not a for-profit company? If the vendor is not doing what they should do under their contract, then the vendor can and should be fired. The same applies to a for-profit management organization providing services to a charter school. The board of the charter should have the stregth and autonomy to determine if all of their service providers are doing what they are suppose to do under the terms of their contract.

Larry, you should be proud of your daughter. I hope she continues long into the future. But what about the children in your district and other districts who are in failing schools and failing school districts. If they can not afford private schools or to move their family, their choice is to take what is offered, good or bad. I am happy for you and your daughter. You have a school which is meeting your needs. I am at the same time sad for all the children who are not in the same situation as you and your daughter and stand behind those who want to provide those children with high quality public school options.

• Link
• Report this comment

Johnny, if a private management company is charging more than the public schools or community based charter schools for the same services, is that effective use of the taxpayer money? If you research many for profit management companies, they overinflate costs for services in order to create profits for their companies. This is currently being investigated all of the nation. Wall street and public education are not a good mix.

• Link
• Report this comment

SlimJim et al,

I’m not your textbook “people person”, but I try to be reasonable.

You find a way to help kids trapped in a failing school that does NOT include reducing legitimate QBE funding earned by my daughter for her school and I’ll stop filing lawsuits.

Deal?

• Link
• Report this comment

I would like to thank Carolyn for pointing out the fact that private companies are making millions of dollars off of our students. The GA Charter School Commission approved 7 charter schools to open in 2010. Of those, 5 are run by EMO’s. If you take the time to look at the budgets submitted by those EMOs, approximately $5 million dollars will LEAVE Georgia during the 2010-11 school year. That is money paid to the companies for management fees, licensing fees (to use their name) and facilities. I would like to see some studies that correlate student performance with brand-new multi-million dollar facilities. There are plenty of commerical properties available for lease/sale at far less than the cost of building a brand new facility. People need to do research on these EMOs; some are being invesitigated by the IRS, as the claim to be non-profit but are not. It is great for the media to raise these issues, but we cannot rely solely on what the media tells us, as I have yet to see any outlet cover the business practices of EMOs, how much money they charge, and the fact that board members and administrators are often driven-out when they begin to ask questions about business practices. Let’s commit to doing our own research before we begin making blanket statements about charters not making a difference or siphoning money from the local schools. The reality is, when properly run and student-focused, charters can make a huge difference for students who have been underserved by traditional schools.

Feel free to email me if you would like to know where to find this info: mseward74@aol.com

• Link
• Report this comment

Larry,

ergo, no loss and no case

• Link
• Report this comment

@ Maureen 2:44 p.m. – It’s a bit misleading to say we don’t know how homeschooled children are doing academically. Belfield found homeschooled children outperfomed public school children on the SAT. Chatmon, in 2 separate studies, found that homeschoolers’ SAT scores were either better than, or not statistically different from, public-schooled and private-schooled students attending attending private universities. Qaqish found only slight differences between homeschoolers and other students on the ACT mathematics achievement test. Saunders found no differences in college integration and retention. I will grant you that none of these studies covers the entire population of home-schooled students, but it is clear that where homeschoolers are studied and tested, they perform as well or better than other students.

• Link
• Report this comment