A civil discourse: Choice, charters and money
I received this e-mail from a reader named Nate and thought it was provocative on the issues of choice and charters. I am posting Nate’s original note to me, my response and his follow-up. (Pour a cup of coffee as this is long.) He gave me clearance to put it all up here for our discussion.
After reading an Op-Ed piece that you posted in a recent paper titled “School boards: Charter school law violates constitution” I thought to myself… It would be good if an organization like the GA Public Policy Foundation or some similar unbiased organization could publish a paper that details in something akin to layman’s terms, how education funding works within the context of Charter Schools, and other choice legislation in GA. They could highlight a few scenarios:
How Is Education Funding for Traditional Pubic schools affected when..
1. A “regular ed” student previously enrolled in a traditional public school attends a charter school
2. A “regular ed” student previously enrolled in a private school attends a charter school
3. A “special ed” student previously enrolled in a traditional public school attends a charter school
4. A “special ed” student previously enrolled in a private school attends a charter school
5. A home schooled student previously attends a charter school
6. A mild-case (i.e., student deemed to require less than $10K to be educated in trad setting) special needs student elects the Special needs voucher
7. A severe case (i.e., student deemed to require more than $25K to be educated in trad setting) special needs student elects the Special needs voucher
8. As a state we max out on the tax scholarship amount which I believe is $50 million.
There could be other scenarios worth highlighting but these are just a few that immediately come to mind.
Personally, I would love to know the answer to these questions, however, if I had to guess the answer to many may start with “it depends….”. That said, surely some answers could be devised based on a set of ideally unbiased assumptions. Ultimately, $$$ (ie. control of it) is what a lot of the debate is about. Would you, by chance, know the answer to any of these questions? Alternatively do you know of any documents, websites, or otherwise that you can point me to to find out.
Personally I am a supporter of school choice. That said, I do think that it’s still worthy of debate by informed parties. However, it just seems that in GA, at least based on what I hear and read, that the debate is quite primitive. When we talk about how charters, the tax scholarship, or the special needs voucher (for example) impact public schools, why is the debate not quantifying the amount and then qualifying exactly how that impacts traditional public schools, if at all. It seems a bit trivial to hear leaders, and particularly larger ones that have 9 digit revenues complaining about how any of GA’s choice initiatives are undermining public education especially since such a tiny fraction of students are taking advantage of them.
I recall hearing a senior education official in a Cobb County presentation mention a number that I am pretty certain was far north of $50K as the amt required to educate a single special needs child with severe disability. To be fair it was not a presentation that discussed anything pertaining to choice, it was just a generic presentation about the state of Special Education in the county base on what I recall. Nevertheless, I immediately thought to myself that if the parent of that child opted for a special needs voucher, wouldn’t several tens of thousands of dollars be saved since the special needs voucher doesn’t come close to matching that dollar amount??? I am not implying that the quality of services would be better or worse as that would be best left up to the parent to determine, but based purely on dollars and cents why not promote more vouchers, for example.
I just wish that someone who is sensible and that has an audience could really try to frame the debate about school choice in GA around facts that are devoid of the fear mongering, rhetoric, and continual regurgitation of shallow points that are raised by both advocates and proponents alike. I want to believe that we truly have leaders in GA that understand the complexities of the issues and that perhaps by the time that it makes it to the general public for consumption that the points are deliberately watered down a bit; however, of late, I have begun to doubt that assumption. Personally, I just want the unbiased facts.
Also, last night while doing some casual Internet searching I also came across a somewhat dated (2005) policy paper that talks about how School Choice Can Help States reduce Education Costs. I have not finished it yet, but it does seem like it would be a timely read for state leaders as they prepare to grapple with the state budget. If you are interested, you can view it at http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa551.pdf.
I suppose the point of my letter to you is somewhat of a vent about the lack of quality debate that is occurring in the mainstream around school choice. On the other hand, it is also a request to ask if you could reach out to contacts you may have to try to pull together an article that you could publish that takes an initial stab at a higher quality debate around the issues. At the end of the day, while much of this “debate is going on, we still have student in GA that need to be educated at a much higher level than they currently are if they are to have a good chance of being able to compete with their global counterparts in any areas that require an ability to be able to think critically, solve problems and innovate.
And this was my response with Nate’s follow-up responses in italic:
On the individual scenarios that you post, I think the issue is that traditional public schools contend that there is an impact and al oss when students leave for charter schools that go well beyond the per pupil costs.
In theory, any child who leaves a traditional school – whether reg ed or special ed – for a charter is only taking his/her per pupil allotment with them. But the systems argue that the impact is far larger as there are fixed costs to running a school whether there are 230 kids or 200. So, if 30 kids leave for the new charter down the road, the traditional public school still has heating and electrical costs etc. that remain the same despite the loss of those 30 kids. I have no doubt that a surge in charters would mean less operating money for traditional schools. The question is whether that ought to matter.
I agree 110% with your point about whether it should matter. I would add to your sentence and say.. should it matter if your main focus is to insure that the child is an optimal learning environment that works for the individual child. Furthermore, as is the case with an underperforming charter school, a traditional public school should also be forced to “close” as well. We are well past the point of more reform that could take years to implement and reap benefits from because meanwhile the students that are subjected to poor instruction are left further and further behind as time progresses.
To me, the bigger issue is who controls the decision-making. Everyone points to big systems like Gwinnett that should easily be able to accommodate a few charter schools, but there are small systems in Georgia that have put into place strong reform models.
If the local school board has a plan in place, how far should the state go to make the system accept charter schools that divert from those plans? Those small systems have less money on hand, so divvying it up with even two charter schools could create a funding strain.
I suppose that is why some of the smaller systems have opted to convert to charter systems. Again, I agree as well that the bigger issue is who controls the decision-making. Ultimately, I think that it should be the parent. My point about needing to have a more quantifiable/quantifiable debate is highlighted even more by the small school system scenario you raised. If there is in fact a point of diminishing return for ALL students as a result of fiscal concerns then perhaps that’s the debate that needs to take place. I have never seen any one size fits all reform efforts that work in all cases and charters are no different. Perhaps, some metrics for determining this “point of diminishing return” particularly for smaller systems needs to be determined. In some cases it legitimately may not make sense to have even a single charter. In that case, the taxpayers in that particular district could lobby the board to convert to a charter system as a way to provide the innovation they are looking for in their school(s). As a side note I still can not figure out why every Supt in the state (even those responsible for the larger school districts) wasn’t/isn’t chomping at the bit to convert to being a charter system. It seems to me that it would serves two key purposes — 1. More autonomy that should theoretically make it easier for them to be successful, and 2. Position them to better compete with charters and private schools. Perhaps there is a fundamental issue I am missing there but that’s another one that I can not figure out.
A good place to review the research on choice is Columbia University’s National Center for the Study of Privatization in Education. Taken as a whole, I think it would be fair to say that the research suggests that the move to charters and choice has not proven yet to change education outcomes.
Thanks for the Columbia info; I will definitely take a look at their research.
Every charter that is approved has hundreds of “claims” for lack of a better term that essentially serve as the terms that the school are bound to meet. Is it possible that the reason that the research may show educational outcomes of charters to be mixed is due to insufficient accountability on the part of the charter authorizing body (i.e., the LEA Board, Charter Commission, Local university in some states, etc..)? I am of the school of thought that better oversight of charters (on an annual and not just at the charter renewal milestone) would in fact lead to them performing at a higher level than their public school counterparts. After all, aside from a unique curricular theme or focus, you are not likley to see a charter approved that has achievement targets that at a minimum are equivalent to area traditional public schools. I would tend to believe that the majority of charters, after about their 3rd yr of Operation are shooting for academic achievement targets that intend to exceed that of their peer traditional public schools.I fear that we spend a lot of time debating choice when the real solution is teacher quality and how we educate teachers.
Again, Amen to that! Unfortunately the problems that plague public education are so broad and complex and what’s worse is that many extend beyond the “system” (i.e, poor parenting, economic downturn, job loss); that we cannot afford to only focus on one singular issue, because in the process we may be doing irreparable damage to generations of kids. While we work on arguably the most important issue of improving teacher quality (pehaps with a little performance based pay, but that is a different topic altogether), we have to provide alternatives, even if not permanent, to as many students as possible to seek out the best educational environment possible until we can provide better prepared teachers for them. I recall reading a piece of research years ago that stated that if a child is exposed to two consecutive years of poor teaching that you will start to see full grade levels of negative academic achievement show up with the student. Assuming that to be accurate, I think we have a long way to go on the issue of teacher quality.
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138 comments Add your comment
Joel
December 30th, 2009
9:21 pm
Unspoken truths – On many occasions I assured my late father that it wasn’t my fault that I had failed a test or not done my homework, it was “that old dumb teacher” that was causing my problems. One of the most important skills I learned in high school was forging my father’s name to “deficiency slips” and other important documents. If I hadn’t, I probably wouldn’t be alive today.
Private School Guy
December 31st, 2009
7:39 am
If you make an analogy to public parks in this discourse one could say that if a group concerned citizens decide to operate a public swimming pool (this is allowed in the city of Atlanta) they will take money away from the general parks fund. Following this logic if the swimming pool is well run and operated people will go to that pool instead of a poorly run city operated pool. In addition others may even drop their memberships in a private pool to go to this pool causing higher use and expenses.
If you compare this to public school systems you have administrators that don’t want charters not only because they will take funds away but because they will make the the non charter schools look bad by comparison.
Schools of choice have an advantage by their very nature in that parents are making a choice about their children’s education and not just parking them at whatever system run facility happens to be in the neighborhood.
Teacher&Mom
December 31st, 2009
9:37 am
An interesting article
http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/k_v91/docs/k0912ri1.pdf
If we continue down the path of more and more testing, it really won’t matter if the school is charter or public.
al
December 31st, 2009
10:53 am
Good interview thanks for the link Teacher&Mom. I’ll have to check out his other work.
Teach 2Educate
December 31st, 2009
11:01 am
Joel you are a “degree” holding idiot. You are full of meaningless dribble. Futhermore, be careful about your “Brown vs. the Board of Education” comment. After reviewing your “blood” relatives, my family is researching the exact same family connection. I hope you are ready for your “Brown vs BOE” relatives. I am sure this made your day!
James
December 31st, 2009
11:48 am
Ray – what research actually supports is that smaller class size does have an impact but almost exclusively on the lower elementary grades *not* in the middle or high school grades. Further, class size has to go down to 15-to-1 to see a significant difference.
http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=710
A common argument for adopting a policy of reducing class size throughout the schools is that a teacher’s ability to reach his or her students will grow as class numbers decrease. In other words, the number of students in the class effects the teacher’s success more than the teacher’s experience, knowledge or teaching style. That does not explain why students in some private schools, in classes of thirty or larger, frequently outscore their public school counterparts. Students in other industrialized countries frequently take math classes which average 40 students and yet they consistently score better in math than American children. In fact, according to a 1999 study by Pennsylvania State University, a good teacher can make a difference in a class, despite its size or makeup, as can a good curriculum.
Larry
December 31st, 2009
12:32 pm
After 100 comments I can’t tell if this discussion concerns charter schools or the two operating Charter Commission schools, which are the only two public schools the state funds differently from every other public school in Georgia.
Since APS, Gwinnett and Dekalb all have independent start-up charter schools (DeKalb even made The National Alliance for Public Charter Schools’ top 50 list for the 2008-09 school year) who are these school systems that oppose charter schools?
ScienceTeacher671
December 31st, 2009
12:33 pm
James, I wonder if anyone here could think of a good reason – other than the skill of the teacher – why a math class of 45 Asian students might out-perform a class of 20 students in the United States?
Carolyn
December 31st, 2009
1:14 pm
Many of my friends have children who attend charter schools. They have positive experiences and enjoy personalized innovative education. These charters were developed by their communities. There is a danger I think in privatizing education. I do not believe that private companies should make a gain from education. I have been reading that the Ga Charter Commission has approved mostly private managed charter schools that are bilking our tax money. I think a better solution in approving charters should be that a standard for charter review be used for the entire state so that charters get a fair shake with the local boards. I do not want to see my tax money being used to fill the pockets of wealthy private management owners. Privatizing public education is not beneficial for proper use of our tax dollars. $$$$$$$$$$$$ = taxes
James
December 31st, 2009
2:44 pm
ScienceTeacher671 – I hope you’re not suggesting that Asian culture values education more than Western culture? The real point is that smaller class sizes in middle and high-school level has very little effect. A good teacher vs average teacher on the other hand has a very large effect. Parents that are concerned about their kids education vs parents that are not is also a very large effect.
Considering that the amount of money spent on education per child is limited to some number less than infinity we should use the money wisely and allocate funds in such a way as to maximize their effect. Smaller class sizes in higher grades costs a lot of funds but yields very little. How about instead we spend that money to financially reward teachers based upon measurable student achievement and improvement?
James
December 31st, 2009
2:50 pm
Carolyn – if a Private charter school is takes the same amount of tax dollars as it’s neighbor public school and educates the kids as good or better than it’s neighbor public school then what does it matter if they make a profit or not? If a charter school can manage it’s money better than an equitable public school and still educate the kids the same or better then the manager / headmaster / whatever of that private charter school *deserves* to earn a good salary because they’re obviously doing something that their neighbor public school doesn’t have a clue how to do.
Fulton County Observer
December 31st, 2009
4:03 pm
Carolyn
There is an enormous consensus that EMOs (Education Management Organizations) should not be allowed to receive money for charter schools, they are private entities. When approached by these companies to “run” the charter school, taxpayers should have a say in whether or not they should receive funding. However, when local community members, parents and businesses come together to take the time to research and develop a charter school petition that is submitted to the local school board, they are and should be entitled to full funding for students.
ScienceTeacher671
December 31st, 2009
8:16 pm
James, I have always heard that Asian culture seems to value education more than Western culture does. Do you disagree? I’ve also heard that Asian culture puts a higher value on conforming to the rules, which implies less class disruption in large classes.
If smaller class sizes in upper grades have little or no effect, why do the “elite” private schools brag about their very small class sizes, and why are wealthy parents willing to pay very steep premiums for those tiny classes?
SlimJim
December 31st, 2009
8:37 pm
Larry, please do not forget that Ivy Prep and many other highly qualified charter applicants have been denied by local districts for nothing more than “not in the best interest of the district”.
On your funding note, you need to research the issue a little more. Before becoming Commission charter schools, these students were funded at about 40% of their peers. Are your children worth only 40% of other children?
Alch
December 31st, 2009
8:38 pm
Wow, the kiddies were out today…sick minds!!
Larry
January 1st, 2010
2:54 am
@SlimJim,
In Ivy Prep’s case, the specific “not in the best interests of the district” issue is that GCPS’s legal council advised them this specific implementation of a single gender school isn’t legally viable. Controlling case law was written by the U.S. Supreme Court, which means any gender discrimination lawsuit filed against Ivy Prep will follow the appeals process back to the Supreme Court. The decision not to strap Gwinnett taxpayers with an expensive lawsuit that their own attorney says they will lose was hardly a casual decision.
Concerning your 40% funding figure, I’m interested in knowing your source because I’ve seen similar statements and they are not accurate. Ivy Prep, along with every other public school in Georgia, received full state funding last year. This is a matter of record, not opinion. The difference this year, which spawned the legal action, is that the two Commission Charter schools received more than QBE calculated funding and this amount was deducted directly from the QBE funding earned by other school systems.
As to your question about whether my children are worth less than others, I fear you have asked the wrong Daddy.
My daughter has attended only Gwinnett public schools. Currently in tenth grade, she scores in the top one percent of every – literally every – local, state and national test administered.
So, my question to you: Why should a school system that produced one of the top academic performers in the United States have its state funding for my daughter reduced and given to schools that produce her intellectual inferiors?
mmm
January 1st, 2010
11:22 am
Could we get back to the original question of how the funds flow?
I was the “start-up charter board chair and mom” that both the Democrats and Republicans were willing to talk to during the legislative session that got the funding algorithm that is in the charter law. I understand it and it’s history, having been intimately involved in it’s passage. It is finally reasonably written, and the description of how the state funding drops given to you by SF is accurate. How the local funding should work (and how it is written in the law) sounds like it should be a straightforward ratio of FTE funding determined based on the student count and qualities(done the same was it is done for every other school) with the local tax monies figured as a the Charter school’s proportional share based upon a ratio of the state funding that school earned over the state funding the full system earned.
The problem is that no one in educational leadership can do math–so the systems all pretty much make up their own method and unless the school has technical expertise and the willingness to sue(and remember, we all had to make nice to these same folks to obtain a charter to begin with) the school takes what they are given. (usually with a good deal of resentment as it never will go far enough).
The huge carve out is facilities funding—the monopoly and farce that says that a public school must figure out how to open and exist ongoing without a publicly funded school building (which must meet all the codes etc.) It is also the main underling “additional fixed cost” that is vaguely referred to when the traditional system complains.
What I dislike is the way turf fighting distracts us from the fact that in Georgia, education is neither respected nor funded on either side of the Charter fence.
p.s. It took me years to figure out how this was supposed to work. If you want some ideas on how it is done, go to the charter site allotment sheets posted here and then come back with more questions.
http://app3.doe.k12.ga.us/ows-bin/owa/qbe_reports.public_menu?p_fy=2000
SlimJim
January 1st, 2010
1:09 pm
Larry,
1. You are correct. GCPS did make that determination and denied the Ivy Prep application. But it is simply short sided to believe that there was not additional bias against the applicant which unfairly influenced the Gwinnett Board’s ultimate decision to deny.
Also remember that the state board of education made the determination that the applicant was outstanding and should be approved. The only difference is that the school children, with only state approval, were funded well below their peers, making the case that the Ivy Prep students are worth about 40% of their peers.
The Georgia General Assembly and Governor Perdue passed HB881 rectifying this funding inadequacy by allowing Ivy Prep to seek Charter Commission approval and the fair and equitable funding the students deserve.
2. You should be very proud of your daughter’s accomplishments. If I had children, I would like for them to have the same level of achievement. I hope it follows her well into the future.
But what about the vast number of children in our state who struggle simply because their educational setting is regrettable or their “one size fits all” environment is not conducive to their learning style? In the case of Ivy Prep, some children attend because of the single gender setting. Others attend because the rigors at the school are substantially higher than the public schools they were previously attending. How about the parent who lives 30 miles away from work and Ivy Prep is right around the corner from their place of work? The parent likes the school setting and loves the fact that they can take their child to/from school every day and if an emergency pops-up, they are right around the corner and not 30 miles away. Who are we to handcuff those students and parents and prevent them from seeking the very best setting possible for their learning and living circumstances.
You and I seem to differ in our thoughts about school choice and its overall meaning to public education. I do not view charter schools as a panacea. I do view charter schools as a necessary reform model to provide parents and their children with public school choice, school districts with a healthy competition and communities with an outlet to seek a meaningful economic driver. As a general rule, local boards of education are NOT the mechanism to implement choice and competition. It goes against the laws of free trade. A company is not going to actively implement an entity which it views as competition. The Georgia Charter Schools Commission serves as an unbiased agency which does not have to deal with the local politics, district by district, implementing public school choice where needed.
CharterStarter
January 1st, 2010
2:52 pm
Larry, your comment (”Ivy Prep, along with every other public school in Georgia, received full state funding last year”) is technically correct but totally misses the point. Yes, Ivy Prep received full state funding, and that funding only amounts to half or less of the funds per student that a traditional public school receives.
The Commission was created because the state (ie, the Governor, the State Board, the Department of Education and the Legislature – both parties!) is tired of local districts refusing to authorize charters. The state is also tired of districts not passing on full funding to charters.
I heard one applicant describe the process best: “It’s sort of like Burger King having to ask McDonald’s if they can open.” The existing process was strongly biased against supporting the creation of competition, choice and innovation permitted by law. So now there is a new authorizer (the Commission) and a new funding formula.
The state shook things up, as it is clearly permitted to do by the Georgia Constitution. That point is being litigated vigorously by both sides. I don’t thing there’s any arguing with the fact that the education of students in a primary responsibility of the state, and that the state can fulfill that responsibility through taxation and law.
Larry
January 1st, 2010
4:00 pm
CharterStarter, I’m sure you know this, but for the benefit of those who don’t:
Last year, Ivy Prep filed as a state “special” school. By law, state special schools are funded exclusively by the state unless there is a local referendum, which there was not. So, if Ivy Prep was underfunded last year, it was the direct and exclusive result of the state legislature failing to adequately fund a state school.
Concerning approvals, the Charter School Commission denied 21 of the 28 applications before them last month. I don’t track such things, but do LEAs actually have a higher rejection rate?
After the Charter School Commission’s action, I have to believe that most charter school applications really should be rejected for valid reasons.
SlimJim
January 1st, 2010
5:07 pm
Larry,
1. You are correct. GCPS did make that determination and denied the Ivy Prep application. But it is simply short sided to believe that there was not additional bias against the applicant which unfairly influenced the Gwinnett Board’s ultimate decision to deny.
Also remember that the state board of education made the determination that the applicant was outstanding and should be approved. The only difference is that the school children, with only state approval, were funded well below their peers, making the case that the Ivy Prep students are worth about 40% of their peers.
The Georgia General Assembly and Governor Perdue passed HB881 rectifying this funding inadequacy by allowing Ivy Prep to seek Charter Commission approval and the fair and equitable funding the students deserve.
2. You should be very proud of your daughter’s accomplishments. If I had children, I would like for them to have the same level of achievement. I hope it follows her well into the future.
But what about the vast number of children in our state who struggle simply because their educational setting is regrettable or their “one size fits all” environment is not conducive to their learning style? In the case of Ivy Prep, some children attend because of the single gender setting. Others attend because the rigors at the school are substantially higher than the public schools they were previously attending. How about the parent who lives 30 miles away from work and Ivy Prep is right around the corner from their place of work? The parent likes the school setting and loves the fact that they can take their child to/from school every day and if an emergency pops-up, they are right around the corner and not 30 miles away. Who are we to handcuff those students and parents and prevent them from seeking the very best setting possible for their learning and living circumstances.
You and I seem to differ in our thoughts about school choice and its overall meaning to public education. I do not view charter schools as a panacea. I do view charter schools as a necessary reform model to provide parents and their children with public school choice, school districts with a healthy competition and communities with an outlet to seek a meaningful economic driver. As a general rule, local boards of education are NOT the mechanism to implement choice and competition. It goes against the laws of free trade. A company is not going to actively implement an entity which it views as competition. The Georgia Charter Schools Commission serves as an unbiased agency which does not have to deal with the local politics, district by district, implementing public school choice where needed.
Carolyn
January 1st, 2010
5:31 pm
After reading these recent posts, I agree that charters should be given the opportunity to expand as they have in states around the nation. I continue to believe that there should be a standard across the state of Georgia in how they are approved. It seems as if the Commission was created to provide more opportunities for charters to get a fair hearing. But after looking at the charters that were approved by the Commission it appears that they are mostly EMO managed, charging alot of money to manage the schools, and bilking my tax dollars. Why pay private companies to manage schools when we are suffering with budget cuts in public education? Also, who is the Commission anyway? I think I need to get more clarity about who they are, who they represent and decide whether they are supportive of community charters or private ventures.
Carolyn
January 1st, 2010
5:36 pm
MMM, I agree that we need to get back to the question of how charter money flows. I thought that the Commission was supposed to be a solution to the problem many charters were having in getting approved. But looking more deeply into the Commission approved charters, it seems that there is a move to private enterprise in charters. Our state is experiencing some serious budget cuts. I have a problem in taking the money from public ed to give to private ventures. Is the Commission really the answer to helping charters grow in GA? I do not think so. We need to start some real dialogue to help legislators develop a standard in the charter process. Innovation is a good thing. Taking my taxes to give to private companies is not.
B. Killebrew
January 1st, 2010
7:20 pm
Lee is a [insert appropriate word here]–however, his post summarizes perfectly the the charter/voucher/private/anti-public school/home-school movement:
Lee
December 30th, 2009
4:18 pm
“…Homeschool, private school, Charter Schools, vouchers, ad infinitum, are merely attempts of parents to segregate their child from the unwashed masses…”
This is the true, unspoken motivation behind almost all of these “charter starters,” etc. It is an ugly truth that Maureen (and the like…ie. Patti Ghezzi) just won’t address or acknowledge.
Nate
January 2nd, 2010
12:40 am
mmm – thank you for the link that allows me to view the charter allotments.
Larry
January 2nd, 2010
1:54 am
mmm, when this law fist passed we had some discussion over the wording.
During your meetings about funding, specifically the “proportional share of local revenue,” was it your understanding this would be deducted from the QBE earnings of the “home” school systems or paid from the state’s general fund?
SlimJim
January 2nd, 2010
2:03 pm
Carolyn, please name me a major vendor in public education which is not a for-profit company? If the vendor is not doing what they should do under their contract, then the vendor can and should be fired. The same applies to a for-profit management organization providing services to a charter school. The board of the charter should have the stregth and autonomy to determine if all of their service providers are doing what they are suppose to do under the terms of their contract.
Larry, you should be proud of your daughter. I hope she continues long into the future. But what about the children in your district and other districts who are in failing schools and failing school districts. If they can not afford private schools or to move their family, their choice is to take what is offered, good or bad. I am happy for you and your daughter. You have a school which is meeting your needs. I am at the same time sad for all the children who are not in the same situation as you and your daughter and stand behind those who want to provide those children with high quality public school options.
Johnny B. Good
January 2nd, 2010
2:04 pm
Carolyn, please name me a major vendor in public education which is not a for-profit company? If the vendor is not doing what they should do under their contract, then the vendor can and should be fired. The same applies to a for-profit management organization providing services to a charter school. The board of the charter should have the stregth and autonomy to determine if all of their service providers are doing what they are suppose to do under the terms of their contract.
Larry, you should be proud of your daughter. I hope she continues long into the future. But what about the children in your district and other districts who are in failing schools and failing school districts. If they can not afford private schools or to move their family, their choice is to take what is offered, good or bad. I am happy for you and your daughter. You have a school which is meeting your needs. I am at the same time sad for all the children who are not in the same situation as you and your daughter and stand behind those who want to provide those children with high quality public school options.
Carolyn
January 2nd, 2010
9:29 pm
Johnny, if a private management company is charging more than the public schools or community based charter schools for the same services, is that effective use of the taxpayer money? If you research many for profit management companies, they overinflate costs for services in order to create profits for their companies. This is currently being investigated all of the nation. Wall street and public education are not a good mix.
Carolyn
January 2nd, 2010
10:08 pm
Johnny I decided to share some of the research that our neighborhood committee is putting together. This sounds quite similar to what is happening in Georgia. The info is from New Orleans post Katrina:
To manage the screening and evaluation of all charter proposals, the Board of Elementary and Secondary Education turned to the Chicago-based National Association of Charter School Authorizers (NACSA). Among its members are many for-profit education management organizations, including Edison Schools, Mosaica Education and SABIS Educational Services.
The decision to allow NACSA to choose which charter applications were approved in New Orleans may have been expedient, given the turmoil within the state. But by moving the chartering process away from communities, away from New Orleans and largely away from Louisiana, it also disadvantaged community groups that wanted to reopen their local schools. Though state law requires charter applicants to be non-profit organizations, there is no bar on these groups sub-contracting with external management organizations, including for-profits. Indeed, it soon became clear that virtually the only route to a successful application was through collaboration with one of the large national charter management organizations – often members of NACSA…The presence of a significant number of charter schools draws resources of many kinds away from the traditional district. In terms of financial resources, large charter experiments like those deplete both financial and human capacity from traditional schools.Millions of public dollars are now being diverted out of state, to the corporate contractors and management companies that have been brought in. Some of those dollars are lining the pockets of entrepreneurs who have barely set foot in the Crescent City. Meanwhile, on the ground, a school system is being created in which the “haves” and the “have nots” are separated by thousands – even millions – of dollars spent, or not spent on their education…In New Orleans, as is the case in Ohio and the District of Columbia, the voices guiding the development of charter schooling in the wake of Hurricane Katrina were not the voices of communities or educators, but rather the voices of entrepreneurs who saw an ideological green field – a financial pasture to plow.
Larry
January 3rd, 2010
1:36 pm
SlimJim et al,
I’m not your textbook “people person”, but I try to be reasonable.
You find a way to help kids trapped in a failing school that does NOT include reducing legitimate QBE funding earned by my daughter for her school and I’ll stop filing lawsuits.
Deal?
Johnny B. Good
January 3rd, 2010
3:53 pm
Cayolyn,
1. If we go by your thoughts, all for profit companies in public education should give up their contracts because they are “for profit”. Companies like McGraw Hill, Glencoe and Pretince Hall should stop printing text books. Companies like Microsoft and Apple, which make hundreds of millions of dollars from school districts across the nation should not sell to public K12.
You can not have a utopian world in public education. Public education and for profit companies are link, like it or not.
2. Quality authorization on the front end and having the ability to tell any charter school, “you will close” is where you should put your priorities.
EducationCEO
January 3rd, 2010
4:27 pm
I would like to thank Carolyn for pointing out the fact that private companies are making millions of dollars off of our students. The GA Charter School Commission approved 7 charter schools to open in 2010. Of those, 5 are run by EMO’s. If you take the time to look at the budgets submitted by those EMOs, approximately $5 million dollars will LEAVE Georgia during the 2010-11 school year. That is money paid to the companies for management fees, licensing fees (to use their name) and facilities. I would like to see some studies that correlate student performance with brand-new multi-million dollar facilities. There are plenty of commerical properties available for lease/sale at far less than the cost of building a brand new facility. People need to do research on these EMOs; some are being invesitigated by the IRS, as the claim to be non-profit but are not. It is great for the media to raise these issues, but we cannot rely solely on what the media tells us, as I have yet to see any outlet cover the business practices of EMOs, how much money they charge, and the fact that board members and administrators are often driven-out when they begin to ask questions about business practices. Let’s commit to doing our own research before we begin making blanket statements about charters not making a difference or siphoning money from the local schools. The reality is, when properly run and student-focused, charters can make a huge difference for students who have been underserved by traditional schools.
Feel free to email me if you would like to know where to find this info: mseward74@aol.com
jim d
January 4th, 2010
1:03 pm
Larry,
Dear freind, you seem to forget that were these students in school with your lovely and gifted daughter they would be taking the same amount of funding from her.
jim d
January 4th, 2010
1:05 pm
Larry,
ergo, no loss and no case
jim d
January 4th, 2010
1:07 pm
I can’t help but wonder if we had tort reform to where the loser picks up all legal fees if this case would even be being pressed by the counties.
Warrior Woman
January 4th, 2010
5:53 pm
@ Maureen 2:44 p.m. – It’s a bit misleading to say we don’t know how homeschooled children are doing academically. Belfield found homeschooled children outperfomed public school children on the SAT. Chatmon, in 2 separate studies, found that homeschoolers’ SAT scores were either better than, or not statistically different from, public-schooled and private-schooled students attending attending private universities. Qaqish found only slight differences between homeschoolers and other students on the ACT mathematics achievement test. Saunders found no differences in college integration and retention. I will grant you that none of these studies covers the entire population of home-schooled students, but it is clear that where homeschoolers are studied and tested, they perform as well or better than other students.
jim d
January 5th, 2010
1:02 pm
Gwinnett’s own 2010 budget documents—- local funding was set at $3919 per student. the state witheld $3935 per student at Ivy Prep.
I’m just sayin!