A civil discourse: Choice, charters and money
I received this e-mail from a reader named Nate and thought it was provocative on the issues of choice and charters. I am posting Nate’s original note to me, my response and his follow-up. (Pour a cup of coffee as this is long.) He gave me clearance to put it all up here for our discussion.
After reading an Op-Ed piece that you posted in a recent paper titled “School boards: Charter school law violates constitution” I thought to myself… It would be good if an organization like the GA Public Policy Foundation or some similar unbiased organization could publish a paper that details in something akin to layman’s terms, how education funding works within the context of Charter Schools, and other choice legislation in GA. They could highlight a few scenarios:
How Is Education Funding for Traditional Pubic schools affected when..
1. A “regular ed” student previously enrolled in a traditional public school attends a charter school
2. A “regular ed” student previously enrolled in a private school attends a charter school
3. A “special ed” student previously enrolled in a traditional public school attends a charter school
4. A “special ed” student previously enrolled in a private school attends a charter school
5. A home schooled student previously attends a charter school
6. A mild-case (i.e., student deemed to require less than $10K to be educated in trad setting) special needs student elects the Special needs voucher
7. A severe case (i.e., student deemed to require more than $25K to be educated in trad setting) special needs student elects the Special needs voucher
8. As a state we max out on the tax scholarship amount which I believe is $50 million.
There could be other scenarios worth highlighting but these are just a few that immediately come to mind.
Personally, I would love to know the answer to these questions, however, if I had to guess the answer to many may start with “it depends….”. That said, surely some answers could be devised based on a set of ideally unbiased assumptions. Ultimately, $$$ (ie. control of it) is what a lot of the debate is about. Would you, by chance, know the answer to any of these questions? Alternatively do you know of any documents, websites, or otherwise that you can point me to to find out.
Personally I am a supporter of school choice. That said, I do think that it’s still worthy of debate by informed parties. However, it just seems that in GA, at least based on what I hear and read, that the debate is quite primitive. When we talk about how charters, the tax scholarship, or the special needs voucher (for example) impact public schools, why is the debate not quantifying the amount and then qualifying exactly how that impacts traditional public schools, if at all. It seems a bit trivial to hear leaders, and particularly larger ones that have 9 digit revenues complaining about how any of GA’s choice initiatives are undermining public education especially since such a tiny fraction of students are taking advantage of them.
I recall hearing a senior education official in a Cobb County presentation mention a number that I am pretty certain was far north of $50K as the amt required to educate a single special needs child with severe disability. To be fair it was not a presentation that discussed anything pertaining to choice, it was just a generic presentation about the state of Special Education in the county base on what I recall. Nevertheless, I immediately thought to myself that if the parent of that child opted for a special needs voucher, wouldn’t several tens of thousands of dollars be saved since the special needs voucher doesn’t come close to matching that dollar amount??? I am not implying that the quality of services would be better or worse as that would be best left up to the parent to determine, but based purely on dollars and cents why not promote more vouchers, for example.
I just wish that someone who is sensible and that has an audience could really try to frame the debate about school choice in GA around facts that are devoid of the fear mongering, rhetoric, and continual regurgitation of shallow points that are raised by both advocates and proponents alike. I want to believe that we truly have leaders in GA that understand the complexities of the issues and that perhaps by the time that it makes it to the general public for consumption that the points are deliberately watered down a bit; however, of late, I have begun to doubt that assumption. Personally, I just want the unbiased facts.
Also, last night while doing some casual Internet searching I also came across a somewhat dated (2005) policy paper that talks about how School Choice Can Help States reduce Education Costs. I have not finished it yet, but it does seem like it would be a timely read for state leaders as they prepare to grapple with the state budget. If you are interested, you can view it at http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa551.pdf.
I suppose the point of my letter to you is somewhat of a vent about the lack of quality debate that is occurring in the mainstream around school choice. On the other hand, it is also a request to ask if you could reach out to contacts you may have to try to pull together an article that you could publish that takes an initial stab at a higher quality debate around the issues. At the end of the day, while much of this “debate is going on, we still have student in GA that need to be educated at a much higher level than they currently are if they are to have a good chance of being able to compete with their global counterparts in any areas that require an ability to be able to think critically, solve problems and innovate.
And this was my response with Nate’s follow-up responses in italic:
On the individual scenarios that you post, I think the issue is that traditional public schools contend that there is an impact and al oss when students leave for charter schools that go well beyond the per pupil costs.
In theory, any child who leaves a traditional school – whether reg ed or special ed – for a charter is only taking his/her per pupil allotment with them. But the systems argue that the impact is far larger as there are fixed costs to running a school whether there are 230 kids or 200. So, if 30 kids leave for the new charter down the road, the traditional public school still has heating and electrical costs etc. that remain the same despite the loss of those 30 kids. I have no doubt that a surge in charters would mean less operating money for traditional schools. The question is whether that ought to matter.
I agree 110% with your point about whether it should matter. I would add to your sentence and say.. should it matter if your main focus is to insure that the child is an optimal learning environment that works for the individual child. Furthermore, as is the case with an underperforming charter school, a traditional public school should also be forced to “close” as well. We are well past the point of more reform that could take years to implement and reap benefits from because meanwhile the students that are subjected to poor instruction are left further and further behind as time progresses.
To me, the bigger issue is who controls the decision-making. Everyone points to big systems like Gwinnett that should easily be able to accommodate a few charter schools, but there are small systems in Georgia that have put into place strong reform models.
If the local school board has a plan in place, how far should the state go to make the system accept charter schools that divert from those plans? Those small systems have less money on hand, so divvying it up with even two charter schools could create a funding strain.
I suppose that is why some of the smaller systems have opted to convert to charter systems. Again, I agree as well that the bigger issue is who controls the decision-making. Ultimately, I think that it should be the parent. My point about needing to have a more quantifiable/quantifiable debate is highlighted even more by the small school system scenario you raised. If there is in fact a point of diminishing return for ALL students as a result of fiscal concerns then perhaps that’s the debate that needs to take place. I have never seen any one size fits all reform efforts that work in all cases and charters are no different. Perhaps, some metrics for determining this “point of diminishing return” particularly for smaller systems needs to be determined. In some cases it legitimately may not make sense to have even a single charter. In that case, the taxpayers in that particular district could lobby the board to convert to a charter system as a way to provide the innovation they are looking for in their school(s). As a side note I still can not figure out why every Supt in the state (even those responsible for the larger school districts) wasn’t/isn’t chomping at the bit to convert to being a charter system. It seems to me that it would serves two key purposes — 1. More autonomy that should theoretically make it easier for them to be successful, and 2. Position them to better compete with charters and private schools. Perhaps there is a fundamental issue I am missing there but that’s another one that I can not figure out.
A good place to review the research on choice is Columbia University’s National Center for the Study of Privatization in Education. Taken as a whole, I think it would be fair to say that the research suggests that the move to charters and choice has not proven yet to change education outcomes.
Thanks for the Columbia info; I will definitely take a look at their research.
Every charter that is approved has hundreds of “claims” for lack of a better term that essentially serve as the terms that the school are bound to meet. Is it possible that the reason that the research may show educational outcomes of charters to be mixed is due to insufficient accountability on the part of the charter authorizing body (i.e., the LEA Board, Charter Commission, Local university in some states, etc..)? I am of the school of thought that better oversight of charters (on an annual and not just at the charter renewal milestone) would in fact lead to them performing at a higher level than their public school counterparts. After all, aside from a unique curricular theme or focus, you are not likley to see a charter approved that has achievement targets that at a minimum are equivalent to area traditional public schools. I would tend to believe that the majority of charters, after about their 3rd yr of Operation are shooting for academic achievement targets that intend to exceed that of their peer traditional public schools.I fear that we spend a lot of time debating choice when the real solution is teacher quality and how we educate teachers.
Again, Amen to that! Unfortunately the problems that plague public education are so broad and complex and what’s worse is that many extend beyond the “system” (i.e, poor parenting, economic downturn, job loss); that we cannot afford to only focus on one singular issue, because in the process we may be doing irreparable damage to generations of kids. While we work on arguably the most important issue of improving teacher quality (pehaps with a little performance based pay, but that is a different topic altogether), we have to provide alternatives, even if not permanent, to as many students as possible to seek out the best educational environment possible until we can provide better prepared teachers for them. I recall reading a piece of research years ago that stated that if a child is exposed to two consecutive years of poor teaching that you will start to see full grade levels of negative academic achievement show up with the student. Assuming that to be accurate, I think we have a long way to go on the issue of teacher quality.
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138 comments Add your comment
Maureen Downey
December 30th, 2009
3:33 pm
Joel, I am not a “government employed” teacher. The fact remains that we have no way of knowing yet how homeschoolers are doing. I personally have interviewed homeschooling families doing remarkable things with their kids, including taking them on trips around the world. But I have also interviewed parents who are letting their kids “self-teach.” I have seen homeschooled kids enter public high school ahead of the pack, and some far behind.
I never understand this hostility to research – it’s how we have figured out what cures cancer and what doesn’t. We don’t have the facts yet on homeschooling. That is not denial. That is the reality.
Maureen
Joel
December 30th, 2009
3:47 pm
Maureen Downey – You stated, “I never understand this hostility to research – it’s how we have figured out what cures cancer and what doesn’t. We don’t have the facts yet on homeschooling. That is not denial. That is the reality.” I see how your closed mind works, my contradictory information is considered “hostility”, yet yours is, without question, supposed to be taken as 100% factually correct. It’s interesting to me that you refer to precious children as “kids”, as in baby goats. Are you aware of how crude, inappropriate, and disrespectful that slang term is? I pray you are not any type of teacher.
jim d
December 30th, 2009
3:48 pm
Nate,
don’t know if this really adddress’ you question about the lost funding—but the 800g that gwinnett is quibling over figures to be something like a trivial .00067% of their annual budget.
Unspoken truths
December 30th, 2009
3:53 pm
If it really, really comes down to the teacher, above all other factors, like the blame the teacher bandwagon wants to insist, look at the teachers from countries that are running educational circles around us.
Why is it when they come to this country, their students suddenly run circles around their counterparts?
Why is it that those teachers from other countries aren’t talking about how poor their American peers perform compared to their foreign peers, but more often than not, will talk about how little so many American students and their parents value education compared to the students in the their country of origin?
Unspoken truths
GA Teacher
December 30th, 2009
3:55 pm
Well, as far as private schools go, usually they outperform their public counterparts because the parents who are involved enough to spend thousands of dollars on their child’s education are the same parents who read to their children, encourage responsibility, engage their children, and everything else that comes with being a “good parent.” I am not saying that they are the only parents who do so, but if involved public school parents in bad school districts can afford private school, they usually pay up. Private schools can easily expel any child who inhibits the learning environment and they do not have to accept any special needs child that they do not have the resources to teach. If I could pick out the children with involved parents and get rid of the rest, my students would score in the top tenth percentile in everything and I teach in an inner-city school. Look, the reality of the situation is that our schools have far too many children whose parents are not doing what they are supposed to do, society dictates that every child is entitled to a public education regardless of whether they want it or not, and education is seen as the key to fixing societal ills when the problems in schools are merely a reflection of societal ills. It isn’t perfect, but on the bright side: most of us are products of public schools and the US continues to be a leading world power. It isn’t all bad either!
Why the hostility to research
December 30th, 2009
3:58 pm
There is a simple answer to why there is so much hostility to educational research, compared to research in other fields. Educational researchers don’t use the same strict scientific protocol as other fields do, yet they want to maintain their research is every bit as valid.
That’s why education has so many failed fads, despite the fact that the research said they would be effective.
Unspoken truths
December 30th, 2009
4:10 pm
Supposedly we have no idea if homeschool is effective. No idea at all.
Just like we have no idea, when we are in the bank, if that guy wearing a ski mask, holding a note in one hand, with his other hand hidden in his pocket, is really going to rob the bank, or if he just came in from the cold and needs a note because he has laryngitis.
But if we can at all avoid it, we sure don’t stick around to find out do we?
Unspoken truths.
Lee
December 30th, 2009
4:18 pm
The bottom line is that many parents now realize one of the most important factors of their child’s academic success is the demographics of their classmates.
You put an average-above average child in a room full of chronic troublemakers, dullards, special ed kids who are still wearing diapers in the second grade, and non-English speakers, that child’s education will suffer. It matters not if the class is in a trailer or a Taj Mahal brick and mortar building, if the teacher is a first year greenhorn or a 20 year Phd National Board Certified, that child will be disadvantaged.
Homeschool, private school, Charter Schools, vouchers, ad infinitum, are merely attempts of parents to segregate their child from the unwashed masses.
“But those private schools get to pick the creme of the crop. If they had to take all comers like the public schools, they would not do as well.”
Well duh, Einstein. That’s sorta the whole point, isn’t it?
Lee
December 30th, 2009
4:21 pm
“African Architecture” ROFLMAO
Chapter One: Mud huts.
Chapter Two: blank
Chapter Three: blank
etc, etc, etc
Unspoken truths
December 30th, 2009
4:21 pm
Yes we do know why their is hostility toward educational research that doesn’t exist compare to other research. Because in many, if not most cases, it doesn’t even come close to following the same strict scientific protocol of research in other areas, yet educrats want to insist it is every bit as irrefutable.
Until the next fad comes along, which just like the last failed fad, was supposedly validated by the research.
Unspoken truths.
Reality2
December 30th, 2009
4:50 pm
Joel,
You seem to assume that US education was ever that good. At least in math and science, they have been mediocre since the 60’s and probably before then, too.
Cold splash of water to Kerry N
December 30th, 2009
4:59 pm
Kerry N you have a compromised immunity system, yet you want to go into teaching?
Angling for an early death, or a life of really bad health?
But if you insist on trying, by all means volunteer. But be aware, volunteering will no more acquaint you with the actual stress of teaching, than watching COPS will acquaint you with the actual stress of being a police officer.
Not only volunteer during school, talk to teachers after school and find out exactly what they are going through in terms of time commitments to a job the public thinks last from 8 to 3 with summers off.
Ask teachers about the stress of being held accountable, yet with so many factors clearly not in their control. Ask teachers about stresses and strains teaching other children has when it comes to quality of life with their own family.
Find teachers who left the public schools to go to private schools and ask if the loss of pay was worth it in the long run.
Ask them if they had to do it all over again would they, and would they currently recommend it to others?
Realize that at least one of three new teachers quickly decide they were sold a bill of goods when it comes to teaching, and leave the profession, and plan accordingly for an alternative job path.
Go into your research with as cold and sober a look at it as you can possibly muster, so you don’t end up disappointed.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:08 pm
Reality2 – If U.S. education hadn’t been “that good”, the world wouldn’t have been trying to attend our universities.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:14 pm
Maureen Downey – How convenient for you! My personal experience equates to “hostility to research”, yet your statements constitute irrefutable and unquestionable proof.
Unspoken truths
December 30th, 2009
5:16 pm
U.S. high schools pale in comparison to other countries, but other countries send their kids to U.S. colleges.
Gee, I wonder which of the two, high schools or colleges, places the responsibility for learning primarily on the student?
Unspoken truths
Shannon, M.Div.
December 30th, 2009
5:18 pm
Joel, the United States had public education before communism was a twinkle in Marx’s eye. (Marx was born in 1818; the first public school in the US was in 1821). Communists also eat food, drink water, and breathe air. Should we stop all those things?
The world would be a much better place if people looked at themselves like Republicans (i.e., personal responsibility) and at others like Democrats (i.e., the social safety net and concern for equity). The difference between the ant/grasshopper fable and the issue we’re discussing is that the ant and grasshopper had equal capability and equal opportunity.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:19 pm
Back at you, Cold splash of water to Kerry N. Persons considering a profession in teaching should possess the good sense to realize the stresses involved, after all, they have been students for quite a few years.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:36 pm
M. D. “…hostility to research…”. Hilarious! BTW, do you understand the meaning of “kids”? It certainly isn’t “children”.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:38 pm
It’s hard to believe that someone who accuses me of being hostile to research would disrespectfully refer to children as kids.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:43 pm
kid
n.
1.
a. A young goat.
b. The young of a similar animal, such as an antelope.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:45 pm
child
n. pl. chil·dren
1.
a. A person between birth and puberty.
b. A person who has not attained maturity or the age of legal majority.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:45 pm
“Children” are not “kids”.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:46 pm
Maureen doesn’t seem to understand the difference.
Animal House
December 30th, 2009
5:48 pm
We the young antelope doesn’t apply the lessons learned, you better believe the lion holds him accountable.
But human society, and the governments that govern human society constantly make excuses for their kids. Then they wonder why dysfunction sets in when the lion called Real Life comes calling.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:49 pm
Please don’t send your goats to school.
Reality2
December 30th, 2009
5:50 pm
Joel,
You must distinguish universities and K-12 school. US K-12 schools have never been “world class,” while universities and graduate schools in the US have been, without any question, the world leaders. Of course, we are loosing some of the advantages there as well. In any event, if you think US K-12 schools were ever that good, you are horribly mistaken.
Animal House edit
December 30th, 2009
5:50 pm
Not we the young antelope, when the young antelope.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
5:58 pm
Government does nothing well. Why would any sane person willingly entrust the education of their precious children to known incompetents? I’m constantly amazed at how a family will spend thousands to fence their yard so a purebred dog will not roam the streets and mate with a mongrel, yet those same persons have no clue with whom their children are associating. Duh…
Joel
December 30th, 2009
6:01 pm
Until the 1950’s, U.S. K-12 schools were most definitely world class. Now, government does nothing well. Why would any sane person willingly entrust the education of their precious children to known incompetents? I’m constantly amazed at how a family will spend thousands to fence their yard so a purebred dog will not roam the streets and mate with a mongrel, yet those same persons have no clue with whom their children are associating. Duh…
Joel
December 30th, 2009
6:03 pm
People spend thousands to fence a yard so their purebred dog will not roam and mate with a mongrel, but they have no clue where their children are…
Joel
December 30th, 2009
6:06 pm
Reality2, please note : Until you know the proper spelling of “losing”, please don’t attempt to give me a history lesson. Thank you.
Animal House
December 30th, 2009
6:26 pm
People do spends thousands to protect a purebred, and many of them do have no idea about the state of their children. Yet we play the game called blame the teacher.
Next time educrats say we can no longer accept excuses, teachers should say they are right. We can no longer accept excuses from educrats who won’t give teachers the authority to truly hold students accountable for behavior and academic performance.
This is why the public schools are so afraid of homeschools, vouchers and charter schools. Because so many of them are willing to do what the public schools won’t, which is hold the student responsible, and in the process expose the dysfunction and the lack of will of the educational system to do the same.
The organism is responding to a threat to its existence, with little to no regard as to what might be best for the students its existence is supposed to serve.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
6:37 pm
“Sisyphus” (SIS-i-fus)
“Sinner condemned in Tartarus to an eternity of rolling a boulder uphill then watching it roll back down again. Sisyphus was founder and king of Corinth, or Ephyra as it was called in those days. He was notorious as the most cunning knave on earth. His greatest triumph came at the end of his life, when the god Hades came to claim him personally for the kingdom of the dead. Hades had brought along a pair of handcuffs, a comparative novelty, and Sisyphus expressed such an interest that Hades was persuaded to demonstrate their use – on himself.
And so it came about that the high lord of the Underworld was kept locked up in a closet at Sisyphus’s house for many a day, a circumstance which put the great chain of being seriously out of whack. Nobody could die. A soldier might be chopped to bits in battle and still show up at camp for dinner. Finally Hades was released and Sisyphus was ordered summarily to report to the Underworld for his eternal assignment. But the wily one had another trick up his sleeve.
He simply told his wife not to bury him and then complained to Persephone, Queen of the Dead, that he had not been accorded the proper funeral honors. What’s more, as an unburied corpse he had no business on the far side of the river Styx at all – his wife hadn’t placed a coin under his tongue to secure passage with Charon the ferryman. Surely her highness could see that Sisyphus must be given leave to journey back topside and put things right.
Kindly Persephone assented, and Sisyphus made his way back to the sunshine, where he promptly forgot all about funerals and such drab affairs and lived on in dissipation for another good stretch of time. But even this paramount trickster could only postpone the inevitable. Eventually he was hauled down to Hades, where his indiscretions caught up with him. For a crime against the gods – the specifics of which are variously reported – he was condemned to an eternity at hard labor. And frustrating labor at that. For his assignment was to roll a great boulder to the top of a hill. Only every time Sisyphus, by the greatest of exertion and toil, attained the summit, the darn thing rolled back down again.” Eventually, the great boulder of poor education will roll down and crush our entire nation…
Joel
December 30th, 2009
6:42 pm
The Sisyphean task we now call “education” must undergo significant positive changes.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
6:58 pm
I shall not apologize for any harsh comments I have left today. Unless people become angry or laugh, they soon stop concentrating on and lose interest in any topic. We must all endeavor to keep education in the forefront. Thank you all very kindly for your time, patience, and attention. God bless America!
Maureen Downey
December 30th, 2009
7:15 pm
Joel,
You apparently believe language is immutable. If that were so, calling you “awful” would be a compliment. And calling you “sophisticated” would be an insult.
Times – and language – change.
If you can’t find any dictionaries that define “kid” as a young person of either sex, I suggest you invest in a new dictionary.
Maureen
Joel
December 30th, 2009
7:26 pm
Neither the passage of time, nor the appearance of the term “kid” defined as a young person in a dictionary, makes the term any less disrespectful.
Reality2
December 30th, 2009
7:33 pm
So, government can’t do anything right, but the government schools in the US were world class till the 50’s. Is it “government” who can’t do anything right, or is it the “US” government (particularly more recent ones) who can’t do anything right? Certainly government schools in other countries are doing better than ours.
I, for one, have been laughing at your statements. I suppose you can claim yourself to be the evidence of the failure of the government schools.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
7:52 pm
Yes, I am “the evidence of the failure of the government schools” – and please don’t forget to blame the failure of Emory University. I hold both a “J.D.” and a “M.D.” from the school. Oh, and I also earned two degrees at a failed government operated trade school on North Avenue, a “B.A.” in human biology, and a “M.A.” in nuclear physics…
Unspoken truths
December 30th, 2009
7:53 pm
I see the nuances of language are willing to be addressed, but not the essential issue of, if it’s really the teacher above all else, why is it that teachers who come from countries than run academic circles around us, don’t recreate that same success here?
Why is it, if it’s really the teacher above all else, these teachers don’t talk about the comparative lack of quality of U.S. teachers compared to their peers overseas, but instead talk about the lack of value and work ethic students exhibit here, compared to the students they taught in their country of origin?
Unspoken truths; question we don’t want to answer, lest we have to give up our agendas.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
8:21 pm
I’m sorry. I suppose much of the failure of the U.S. government can be laid at the feet of my blood relatives. “The Adams family is a family of politicians from the United States. Below is a list of members.
Samuel Adams (1722-1803), delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention 1779 1788, Massachusetts State Senator 1781, candidate for U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1788, Lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts 1789-1794, Governor of Massachusetts 1793-1797. Second cousin of John Adams.
John Adams (1735-1826), Delegate to the Continental Congress from Massachusetts 1774-1778, U.S. Minister to the Netherlands 1781-1788, U.S. Minister to Great Britain 1785-1788, Vice President of the United States 1789-1797, President of the United States 1797-1801, delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention 1820. Second cousin of Samuel Adams.
Joshua Johnson, U.S. Consul to London, England 1790-1797. Father-in-law of John Quincy Adams.
Joseph Allen (1749-1827), delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention 1788, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1810-1811. Nephew of Samuel Adams.
John Quincy Adams (1767-1848), U.S. Minister to the Netherlands 1794-1797, U.S. Minister to Prussia 1797-1801, U.S. Minister to Russia 1809-1814, U.S. Minister to Great Britain 1815-1817, Massachusetts State Senator 1802, U.S. Senator from Massachusetts 1803-1808, U.S. Secretary of State 1817-1825, President of the United States 1825-1829, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1831-1848, candidate for Governor of Massachusetts 1838. Son of John Adams.
John Pope (1770-1845), Kentucky State Representative 1802 1806, U.S. Senator from Kentucky 1807-1813, Kentucky Secretary of State 1816-1819, Governor of Arkansas Territory 1829-1835, U.S. Representative from Kentucky 1837-1843. Brother-in-law of John Quincy Adams.
Benjamin Crowninshield (1773-1851), Massachusetts State Representative 1811, Massachusetts State Senator 1812, U.S. Secretary of the Navy 1815-1818, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1823-1831. Grandfather-in-law of John Quincy Adams.
William S. Smith (1755-1816), U.S. Representative from New York 1813-1815. Son-in-law of John Adams.
William Cranch (1769-1855), Judge of U.S. Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia 1801 1806. Nephew by marriage of John Adams.
Charles Allen (1797-1869), Massachusetts State Representative 1830 1833-1835 1840, Massachusetts State Senator 1836-1837, Judge of Court of Common Pleas in Massachusetts 1842-1845, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1849-1853, delegate to the Republican National Convention 1856, Superior Court Judge in Massachusetts 1859-1867. Son of Joseph Allen.
George Washington Adams (1801-1828), Massachusetts State Representative 1826. Son of John Quincy Adams.
Edward Everett (1794-1865), U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1825-1835, Governor of Massachusetts 1836-1840, U.S. Minister to Great Britain 1841-1845, U.S. Secretary of State 1852-1853, U.S. Senator from Massachusetts 1853-1854, candidate for Vice President of the United States 1860. Brother-in-law of Charles Francis Adams, Sr..
Charles Francis Adams, Sr. (1807-1886), Massachusetts State Representative 1831, Massachusetts State Senator 1835-1840, candidate for Vice President of the United States 1848, delegate to the Republican National Convention 1856, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1859-1861, U.S. Minister to Great Britain 1861-1868, candidate for Governor of Massachusetts 1876. Son of John Quincy Adams.
Alfred Cumming (1802-1873), Mayor of Augusta, Georgia 1836; Governor of Utah Territory 1858-1861. Great-grandson-in-law of Samuel Adams.
John Quincy Adams (1833-1894), Massachusetts State Representative 1866 1869, candidate for Governor of Massachusetts 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1879, candidate for Vice President of the United States 1872. Son of Charles Francis Adams, Sr..
William C. Lovering (1835-1910), Massachusetts State Senator 1874-1875, delegate to the Republican National Convention 1880, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1897-1910. Father-in-law of Charles Francis Adams III.
William Everett (1839-1910), U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1893-1895, candidate for Governor of Massachusetts 1897. Son of Edward Everett.
Brooks Adams (1848-1927), delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention 1917. Son of Charles Francis Adams, Sr..
Henry Cabot Lodge (1850-1924), Massachusetts State Representative 1880, U.S. Representative from Massachusetts 1887-1893, U.S. Senator from Massachusetts 1893-1924, delegate to the Republican National Convention 1924. Brother-in-law of Brooks Adams.
Charles Francis Adams III (1866-1954), Mayor of Quincy, Massachusetts 1896-1897; delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention 1917; U.S. Secretary of the Navy 1929-1933. Son of John Quincy Adams.
Thomas B. Adams (1910-1997), candidate for Democratic nominations for U.S. Senate from Massachusetts 1966, delegate to the Democratic National Convention 1972. Great-grandson of Charles Francis Adams, Sr..
William R. Merriam (1849-1931), Minnesota State Representative 1883 1887, Governor of Minnesota 1889-1893, delegate to the Republican National Convention 1896. Descendant of John Adams.
Eugene H. Nickerson (1918-2002), delegate to the Democratic National Convention 1972, Judge of U.S. District Court 1977. Descendant of John Adams.” This is only a partial list of the scoundrel politicians to whom I am directly related. Though I was once directly involved in politics, thank God no one has yet added my name to the “Wikipedia” list.
Carolyn
December 30th, 2009
8:34 pm
Joel,my family is a product of Brown v Board of Ed. My family can now attend schools with adequate facilities and books that were not ready for the garbage can. There is not “colored teacher” pay and “white teacher” pay that my grandmother experienced as a teacher. My father was given the opportunity to go to Medical School of his choice. All of my relatives went to schools of their choice versus those “For Colored Only.” I was educated in some of the finest schools in this country. As a result, my family is highly successful and my children benefit from a society that that they can aspire and reach dreams. De facto segregation still exists due to stereotypes and prejudices, but the ruling enables all of America to have the legal right for public institutions to uphold the ideals of the Constitution.
Maureen Downey
December 30th, 2009
8:38 pm
Unspoken, Maybe those specific foreign teachers simply aren’t strong teachers. If you do not think that teachers matter, look over the research of William Sanders who created the value-added assessment system.
Kerry N.
December 30th, 2009
8:42 pm
Cold Splash of Water and Joel:
I do wish to go into this decision eyes wide open. It is for that reason I am posting on a Blog where, I’ve heard, teachers tend to participate. I thank you for your suggestions. I believe I will head to the nearest middle school and see if I can set up some meetings with the teachers.
My lowered immune system is due to my having one kidney. It just means I’m more likely to catch a cold if I’m not cautious. Not looking for an early death. I do what I can to keep my immune system up and healthy.
I wish you all a happy, healthy, and prosperous new year!
Joel
December 30th, 2009
8:48 pm
I’ll be so proud when Puerto Rico becomes a state because then, Georgia will probably move up one spot in the education rankings.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
8:50 pm
Kerry N. – May I be so nosy as to ask if you have had a renal allograft? Thank you.
Joel
December 30th, 2009
9:09 pm
If you have had a renal allograft and you are taking immunosuppressant(s), just be careful not to touch your hands to your face and do your best to see that no sick child sneezes in your face and you should be fine. Many renal allografts are now lasting twenty five to forty years. Advanced therapies will soon result in preventing organ rejection altogether.
Unspoken truths
December 30th, 2009
9:11 pm
Wow the lengths we go to to hold on to our agendas! The single most probable explanation isn’t that these teachers from foreign countries have a legitimacy to their views, but instead it’s more probable that they are weak teachers?
No tendency to blame the teacher here is there?
Nobody said teachers don’t matter at all. The contention is that educrats, mainly because they don’t want to address their own failings, have made the teacher the scapegoat for all of America’s educational problems.
But be careful quoting Sanders. If he says teacher effects on student achievement have been found to be both additive and cumulative with little evidence that subsequent effective teachers can offset the effects of ineffective ones, isn’t he in essence saying it’s unfair to hold the teacher accountable for the failings of a student who previously had a poor teacher?
Kind of proves the point that we are
holding teachers accountableblaming teachers for student failure without acknowledging that there are factors that are beyond the teachers control.That’s the thing about relying too much on the research. If you’re not careful, you end up getting hoisted on your own petard.
Cold splash of water to Kerry N
December 30th, 2009
9:15 pm
If you tell them about the one kidney, regardless of how qualified you may be, you may very well find yourself out of the running, without knowing why.
Don’t ever make the mistake that because the primary focus is supposed to be helping children, that people in education have corned the market on acting ethical.
Unspoken truths
December 30th, 2009
9:19 pm
Pardon me for repeating this, but I think it deserves to be noted as a stand alone point.
If Sanders says there is little evidence that subsequent effective teachers can offset the effects of ineffective ones doesn’t it prove the point that we are blaming teachers for student failure, when the cause of that failure is outside their control?
I’m sure the educrats didn’t want people to think about that when they pointed to the research did they?