College admission secrets revealed: Still a mystery to me
AJC reporter Laura Diamond has a good Q&A today with the Emory University director of admissions on how to get into college. (You are on your own in figuring out how to pay for it.)
I love reading these sorts of interviews, although I still think that there are many puzzling aspects to the whole college admissions process. (That’s why there is an entire cottage industry now around the experience. I have a stack of new “how to get into college” guidebooks on my desk.)
With more competition for college admissions, the process has become more complicated. (John Moran/New York Times Photo.)
Why are some kids admitted to Duke and Princeton and rejected by Washington U and Williams?
Is a straight A record with lots of “honors” courses – which are undefined by any set criteria and vary in rigor from school to school – better than a B record loaded with AP classes?
The admissions people typically say to go with more AP classes but I remain dubious. I think that a straight A transcript is a big selling point.
Does it matter if 15 other high-achieving classmates are also applying to Vanderbilt or Emory? The admissions folks say it does not matter, but I know many kids who feel their application was canceled out by a classmate with a slightly higher GPA or SAT score.
The Emory admissions director says that kids don’t have to write about a personal tragedy in their essay, but I think that we are all naturally drawn to stories of overcoming adversity.
I have also heard of students who essentially fabricated dramatic personal episodes and wrote effectively and winningly about them. I know kids who volunteer solely for the purpose of being able to appear caring and involved on their college applications. I am not sure there is anything wrong with resume building, but it does expose the nuttiness around this process.
I have had two kids go through the admissions process. My daughter sought my help on her applications. My son never even showed me any of his essays. Both seem happy at their colleges.
I will go through the process again in eight years with my twins. I am not looking forward to it.
Anyone have any good advice for high school seniors and their weary parents?
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35 comments Add your comment
Rural Education
December 1st, 2009
11:04 am
I have been told directly by college admissions people that they do favor students who take advanced classes because of the rigor those classes involved. We have IB and AP in our school and these students are admitted to the colleges of thier choice at a much higher rate than students who made straight A’s in easier classes.
jiim d
December 1st, 2009
11:06 am
A couple of things for those seniors and their parents.
one) you should already be well into the process of applying and recieving early acceptance
two) Don’t get weighted down with the bigger colleges–there are many great smaller schools out there.
three) don’t become hung up on staying in state
four) best advice i can give is to ask one of your previous English teachers to proof read your essays and cut the fluff from your resume–keep it short and concise.
This seemed to work well with a 3.2 student, with only 2-AP classes, being accepted 2 years ago at all but one of his choices
jim d
December 1st, 2009
11:08 am
FILTERS!! Ms. Downey
Maureen Downey
December 1st, 2009
11:10 am
Jim d, You are out.
jim d
December 1st, 2009
11:11 am
Thank you Dear.
Jennifer
December 1st, 2009
11:57 am
Look carefully at the deadlines. Postmarked versus Received By 12/1.
I am one of those weary parents. 
And I get to go through it all again next year.
Lynn
December 1st, 2009
1:59 pm
I agree Maureen. The harder AP classes without As hurt your admission chances. Despite what the admission officers say, the actual result is a higher GPA is valued over rigor. And that higher GPA can be coupled with a nonimpressive SAT or ACT score and still outweigh Bs in an AP class. I would like to see the most weight given to the standardized SAT or ACT test scores. That would eliminate some of the question about rigor and eliminate the issues with grade inflation and deflation.
The AJC had an article earlier this year that compared the grades high schools gave with the EOCT results. The resulting correlations or lack thereof were reported. This reporting made clear what some have suspected. Some schools inflate grades and others deflate grades. Having students who attend a deflationary school, I would welcome an objective criteria that would eliminate the questions.
FulCoTeach
December 1st, 2009
4:06 pm
AP scores (not just the grades in the AP class) are objective as well as SAT/ACT; the GPA issue varies by college. Grades in the same class at the same school may vary widely by teacher (the “hard” teacher vs the “easy” teacher). Personally know a valedictorian who wasn’t admitted to a VERY prestigious school while another student only in top 10% was admitted. (Their high schools and SAT scores were very similar, and they were same ethnicity, so the “passion” issue apparently spoke loudly here.) I tell kids not to obsess about getting the A over learning the material – above and beyond what they get at school.
HATE seeing kids opt for the easier course for the grades – and HOPE taking away honors points has definitely driven some that way, sadly. Think they could have addressed the problem more equitably – and to students’ benefit. Schools obviously inflated grades could have their honors points adjusted – i.e., if the vast majority of their students lost HOPE…
oldtimer
December 1st, 2009
4:45 pm
It is all so confusing. I am glad mine are done with this. I have spent the last years with a junior then a senior homeroom and have tried to help some of these wonderful students. One thing that really helped, several very good students decided to go to (I am in TN now instead of Atlanta) TN Tech, MTSU, and put off “Vanderbilt” or “Univerity of the South” till there junior year. One reason for this is money. This community is one VERY much changed due to the loss of jobs. They also participated in joint enrollment…free, and AP classes. This really gives them a step up. I feel they made good decisions based on the reality of our times. They will not end up in serious debt. I will look forward to seeing their achievement.
Lynn
December 1st, 2009
5:18 pm
Great points FulCo teacher. AP scores are objective and would be a great way to evaluate the AP class grades. Unfortunately, I don’t think many schools use these scores for admission criteria. You are right about different teachers and grading difficulty as well as the disincentive for students to take Honors classes. That’s why I think using an objective test as the first criteria would be fairer for all concerned.
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Patricia Taylor
December 1st, 2009
6:03 pm
Lynn, I’ve had 2 Admissions Counselors of larger out of state colleges tell me exactly the opposite of what you wrote. GPA is not as important as rigor. A student could take general level courses and make all A’s while a second student could take gifted and AP classes with a “B” sprinkled in and they would be accepted over the straight A student. Colleges are not impressed with students that do not make an effort to take more advanced, rigorous courses in high school.
Old School
December 1st, 2009
6:32 pm
Oldtimer: my youngest graduated from high school here in Georgia and was able to attend MTSU because of the Academic Common Market. If you haven’t already shared it with your students, you might want to. It saved us a huge amount of money because we paid in-state instead of out-of-state tuition. It’s a great consortium and worth a look-see.
sreb.org and explore the Academic Common Market.
live.love.eat.
December 1st, 2009
7:47 pm
I advise taking AP classes, but not too many that would cause you to burn out. I recommend taking AP’s in subjects you enjoy. The hardest AP will most likely be the first one; however, you get use to it. In the state of Georgia you get 7 points added to your report card (although I’m not sure if all the colleges accept it…probably not but I would look into it). Try to challenge your kids but dont push them too far.
Lynn
December 1st, 2009
8:17 pm
Patricia- I have observed first hand the difference between what the admissions counselors say and what actually happens. If you are going to make an A in that AP class then definitely take it. If you aren’t going to make the A, then you are better off in an Honors class. Given the vast disparities in grading, I still maintain that using test scores would be the fairest way to make admission decisions.
Ole Guy
December 1st, 2009
8:47 pm
Rural Ed, your comment reminds me of a somewhat disturbing observation during my short sojourn in the public ed system. As a rookie, one of the first objectives on my agenda was to determine just where the kids (5th grade) stand in math competence. The test, right out of the book, was failed by a large portion of the class. To illuminate the presence of grade inflation, it turned out that a large number of these kids were taking AP. As it turned out, upon indepth investigation, it appeared that, while these kids had glowing grades both in and out of the AP camp, the reality was that, by my humble standards, THEY DIDN’T KNOW SQUAT. As it turned out: 1) their lead teacher had “awarded them points for trying”, and 2) many (if not all) kids on AP had been placed there by parental insistence.
As a practicing educator, all would be favorably served, as to the real value of AP, if the incidence of remedial programs for college freshmen
with an AP background were tracked. Some years ago, the same type of tracking was initiated with Coll freshman who were recipients of HOPE (with the ostensible hs academic achievement records thusly required).
Lee
December 1st, 2009
10:14 pm
Let us not forget about the “diversity” quotas that most colleges quietly implement.
Diversity is our strength, blah, blah, blah…
oldtimer
December 1st, 2009
10:34 pm
Old School, Yes we have heard of the program. MTSU is a great school. (I graduated from a private GA college, GSU, and UGA). I have never worked with a college so student friendly. The campus is lovely also. And Murfreesboro is a really growing town. In-state tution is very resonable and TN does have a Hope scholorship program. It works much like GA.
Dealing with colleges is hard though. You never really know what they want. UGA has gotten so picky. I knew one kid turnedd away because both her parents had gone there. ????What is that?
Dave
December 2nd, 2009
8:37 am
Maureen: How many false admissions rumors can fit into one post/responses? “I knew one kid turned away because both her parents had gone there (UGA)”? Please, that is so absurd! Or the idea that “Despite what the admission officers say, the actual result is a higher GPA is valued over rigor.” The idea of shooting down the AP program because the students “DIDN’T KNOW SQUAT”, and then letting us know that these are 5th graders (taking AP classes, yeah right). Where does everyone get this vast source of knowledge about admissions and “actual” results? Stick to what each college tells you they look for, ask them detailed questions, and then stop spreading these absurd rumors! If you know facts, deal in facts. If you don’t please do not act like you do.
Maureen Downey
December 2nd, 2009
9:15 am
Dave, I will admit to bafflement over the 5th graders and AP comment. But I think there is justified confusion over a higher GPA versus tougher courses. A student from one of the suburban schools sent me a note that she was bumped from the No. 1 ranking in her school when it stopped weighting honors courses. The new No. 1 student had taken far fewer honors and AP classes, but apparently done slightly better in the less demanding courses.
I must also note that colleges boast about how many valedictorians they have, so they communicate the value of class rankings to both students and parents.
I would like you to consider this question: Is it better to be valedictorian with fewer honors and AP classes than to be loaded with them and ranked in the top 15 percent of the class?
I would bet that the valedictorian status would be the better postion.
The fact is that the colleges contribute to this confusion because parents see firsthand disparities in admissions.
Maureen
Tony
December 2nd, 2009
9:41 am
Instead of looking at college admissions as if it is some sort of game to win, students need to understand and value the importance of hard work throughout their school careers. Good grades, no matter what the course, are an indication of hard work. Yes, some courses are easier than others but there is no way to really control those kinds of differences. Students should take the courses that are most rigorous even if it means getting a grade less than an A. I say this because the purpose of education is to prepare for life not simply to get a “ticket” to college. True learning will last a lifetime and will serve a person well no matter what career path they may ultimately take.
Another important point that students need to remember is the one jim d made about applying to smaller colleges rather than setting their sight on the big names. Many smaller university offer a high quality program, and these smaller universities, especially the private institutions, will have financial aid offers that bring their costs into a competitive range when compared to state institutions.
Students who are diligent in doing their best will always rise to the top. These are the students who are sought after by the colleges. It is shameful that so many people seem to be using certain institutions as status symbols with their peers rather than truly seeking out a degree program that will be a better fit.
Dave
December 2nd, 2009
9:42 am
Maureen: Just like each company has their own unique method of selecting employees, each college has their own way of determining admission. That is why I said for students and parents to ask each college a student is looking at how they review applicants. As for the No. 1 student, that is a call by the high school as to how it does it, not the college. And while colleges boast how many vals they get, they also boast about a lot of other things (SAT/ACT, GPA, variety of states/countries), but that does not mean that those factors have a specific “it” factor where an exact score/attribute is desired over another. My knowledge of just the GA high schools indicates that about 30+% of schools do not even rank their students, especially the private schools. My suggestion again is that instead of saying “I would bet”, you ask the colleges. As for the firsthand disparities idea, my guess is that this is due to a lack of knowledge about all applicants and a handy set of rose-colored glasses when looking at their own child.
In reply to your example question, I would guess that each college would have their own answer, but a lot would say “tell me more about the student than just 2 factors”.
I am guessing that it is sometimes a challenge for journalists when people speak in generalities about the profession and make unfounded assumptions, all the while not knowing the realities. Don’t you think this could also be the case for college admissions?
M
December 2nd, 2009
10:11 am
If honors and AP classes are so critical to college admitance then why are those weighted grades not considered by colleges? My daughter did not get into her college of choice because her “weighted” GPA was not considered, only the non-weighted. So why take an AP class? If she would have taken regular classes making an A her GPA would have been higher, thus helping her eligibility to certain colleges. I agree that these classes are more challenging for students thus preparing them for college academics but there appears to be a disconnect in what classes to take and how they are counted toward GPA.
Gail
December 2nd, 2009
10:20 am
I think that you need to listen to the advice of the admissions dept from the schools that your child is applying. Each college looks at the selection criteria differently. Some may prefer a well rounded student rather than an all academic student.
Also, I do believe that class rank is important. Class rigor varies from teacher to teacher and school to school; therefore, class ranking is an accurate comparison of students at a given school. It shows how well the student did with what was offered at his school, ie maybe your school had bad teachers and/or did not offer many AP classes.
Maureen Downey
December 2nd, 2009
10:32 am
Dave or anyone else with insights, I think the disconnect owes in part from what high school counselors tell kids. I think many kids are disappointed when they are not admitted to schools that their counselors assured them were not a stretch.
I would also ask this question: If, in fact, public colleges use grades, rigor of the school and SAT scores, wouldn’t Tech and UGA become Athens versions of the standout high schools that have high achievement across the board?
Is there a penalty for being a good student at a school overflowing with good students, such as Walton or Northview or Davidson Magnet or McIntosh?
Maureen
Dave
December 2nd, 2009
10:40 am
Second try.
Maureen: Different companies have different methods for hiring employees, and each may value different skills in different ways. Colleges are the same way, with each having a different balance of what factors they are looking at and the level of importance that is placed on these factors (Emory and GT, for example, state that they have a somewhat different focus on the level of importance of certain factors). This is why the students and parents should talk to each college about how they review applications.
Now on to HS rankings. First, high schools are the ones that set their own regulations on how to calculate rank (and from what I have seen, 30+% of GA HS’s do not give rank, especially private schools). And yes, colleges boast about the number of val’s in their class, but they also boast about SAT/ACT scores, GPA, number of states/countries their students are from, etc, yet this does not mean there is a magical “X” level for these items that automatically makes them the primary factor in admission. These are just tangible facts that can be distributed and bragged about. Second, colleges would probably look at your example and then ask for more details, as this gives only two factors. But I am also guessing that some would favor the val, and some would favor the top15%, based upon what they state is important to them.
Lastly, a major part of the “firsthand disparities in admissions” comes from a serious lack of knowledge about the overall applicants and the other students they know, and a handy set of rose-colored glasses for when they look at their own child.
As a reporter, when you have sources that start out with “I have also heard” or “I know many kids who feel”, what is your next step? Get the facts, or go with assumptions?
As a journalist, you probably have to bite your tongue when people bash your profession without really knowing what truly goes on at the AJC. Every profession has this issue. All I am saying is don’t be a party to rumors and false statements, and instead stick with the facts.
jim d
December 2nd, 2009
10:56 am
Ms. Downey asked. “Is there a penalty for being a good student at a school overflowing with good students, such as Walton or Northview or Davidson Magnet or McIntosh?”
I suspect that is why the question is asked on every application I saw asking students rank in class.
Dave
December 2nd, 2009
12:22 pm
Maureen: What are the numbers at GT and UGA as far as the number of students admitted and enrolled from the schools you mentioned? I am guessing at least the enrolled numbers are out there, although this only gives you half of the answer (most top students at the HS’s mentioned have a number of options and may not choose to attend GT or UGA). I am guessing that you will see that the top feeder schools at both UGA and GT come from what you would consider top HS’s in GA. But I would also suggest that we do not assume that at these schools mentioned, high achievement is across the board.
HB
December 2nd, 2009
1:55 pm
M, how do you know that your daughter would have gotten in with a higher GPA in easier classes? Just because a school doesn’t give extra weight in their calculations does not mean that having taken AP courses doesn’t benefit students. They may throw a kid who took no AP courses on the rejection pile before they even bother looking at the GPA. My understanding 10 years or so ago, was that the number of AP courses taken mattered mostly in regard to how many were offered at your school. If the school only offered a few you needed to try to take them all. If they offered a ton, you could probably get away with skipping some of them instead of overloading and losing electives.
Schools may also look at a student’s particular talents. Let’s say there’s a kid with a 3.5 who shows amazing talent for writing demonstrated by awards won in addition to good grades in the humanities whose Bs were mostly in math and science courses. Then say there’s another student with a 3.7 who had fewer Bs but showed no truly outstanding talent in any particular area. The school may decide they want the 3.5 student figuring he won’t major in science anyway but could become a real standout. I think the key is there’s no set formula or rules — do this and you’ll get in — as frustrating as that is to parents.
So take Tony’s advice and help your kids work toward obtaining the best education (actual learning — not just the piece of paper) they can.
majii
December 2nd, 2009
2:45 pm
Lee,
Even when colleges implement diversity quotas “quietly,” those students admitted under that standard still have to prove themselves by being able to complete their chosen curriculum according to the college’s standards and graduate. IMHO, promoting diversity is important because it exposes students to the cultures of others and prepares them to work in companies that employ persons with diverse cultures. I also think that it helps students to see that although a person may differ from them racially/ethnically/culturally, they share some things in common. IMO, diversity only becomes a bad word when one person/group feel(s) that people who differ from them in some way are the lesser children of God. The same God who made man in His own image, and the God they say they worship.
catlady
December 2nd, 2009
6:58 pm
There is significant differences in the process between selective privates and publics. How many kids does this really impact?
I worked in an admissions office of a large, popular public university in a state south of Georgia. There were 2 processes; One for white kids, and one for “others”. The white kids were evaluated first on SAT. Less than a 1200 (old scale, math and language only and before “renorming” got a denial letter unless there was a department going to bat for them as a “talented, special admit”. Black and American Indian kids’ transcripts were evaluated on a different scale. Over 900, they were an automatic admit. Under 900, each transcript was indivdually discussed in a committee to see if there were any grounds on which to justify admission. I sent out many admit letters to these students with SATs below 800. Now, this was almost 20 years ago, so quite possibly the process has changed.
It would be more helpful to talk about how the publics make these decisions.
lynn
December 2nd, 2009
10:23 pm
Many publics are very numbers driven. UGA says that for early action, 2/3rds of their decision about a student is based on rigor of courses and grades in those courses. UGA only looks at grades in core courses and foreign language plus any elective AP courses. The remaining 1/3rd is standardized test scores. For regular decision, UGA claims to look at the bigger picture including extracurriculars and essays.
The admissions people at UGA say that they don’t discriminate against students at schools like Walton, etc, but I think some parents would disagree. Amongst many parents in northern Atlanta, the believe is that your kid has to be in the top 10 percentish to get into UGA. The new John’s Creek High School has a senior class of about 70. Some of those parents made the decision to move their kids from Northview to JC because they hoped their kids could get into UGA. (The top ten percent at Northview is a tough nut to crack. ) A few years ago, the Valedictorian of a South Georgia high school wasn’t admitted to UGA — but she/he didn’t have the rigor that UGA so values.
Dave
December 3rd, 2009
2:13 pm
I would suggest looking at this video from Vandy, although it is a little long. GPA and rigor of curriculum is discussed at the 6 minute mark. Vandy, of course, is very selective, but I am guessing this applies to many of the “selective” colleges.
Dave
December 3rd, 2009
2:13 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKARNadxshU
Annabeth
January 6th, 2010
3:36 pm
As a junior in high school, I am personally going through this process right now. Although academics are very important, GPA is not necessarily the most important consideration for the school. I am in the IB program and it is ranked as one of the top schools in the country. My counselor advised me that if I were to get straight A’s in the honors classes my chances of being picked over an applicant with “alright grades” in IB are greatly diminished and I will probably lose the acceptance to the IB student. Also, students in AP and IB are set aside to begin with, so you’re already at an advantage. Colleges look for well rounded and rigorous individuals who take initiative.
Plus if you think about it, there’s many more students who are in “regular” classes with straight A’s then they are AP/IB students. If you have the option for AP/IB at your school I strongly recommend you take advantage of this because colleges can see that you chose the easier courses!