Handing out Bibles at a high school: Why do we keep doing this in Georgia?
Too many public schools continue to blur the church-state divide in Georgia
The zest with which Georgia schools test the church-state divide never fails to stun me.
I wonder if other states grapple with this issue or is this unique to the Bible Belt?
With the threat of litigation, public schools ought to think very carefully about allowing any religious group access to students and the possible charge of proselytizing on school grounds.
Yet, a north Georgia parent sent me a note that Bibles were handed out at her high school last week. She is a Christian and reveres the Bible, but doesn’t think the high school was the right place to hand it out.
Her concern mirrors my own: Our schools are attended by students of all faiths and traditions. All those faiths and belief deserve respect. We risk making many students feel like outsiders when we elevate one religion above all others.
Consider the 1656 warning by devout Baptist Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island, on the consequences of mixing religion and government: “God requireth not an uniformity of religion to be enacted and enforced in any civil state; which enforced uniformity, sooner or later, is the greatest occasion of civil war, ravishing of conscience, persecution of Christ Jesus in his servants and of the hypocrisy and destruction of millions of souls.”
More than a century later, Thomas Jefferson allayed the fears of the Baptist Association that the newly birthed United States of America was planning to designate a national religion. Responding to the worried Baptists, Jefferson wrote, “The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State.”
Many of you will argue that America was created as a Christian nation. But the 1797 treaty between the United States and Tripoli, written under President George Washington and signed by his successor, John Adams, says that “the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
But what about the phrase “one nation under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance and “In God We Trust” on our currency? Both grew out of the anti-Communist fervor of the McCarthy era.
In 1954, politicians tacked “under God” onto the pledge; three years later, they engraved “In God We Trust” onto paper money. Concerns were raised even then about blurring the line between church and state, but no lawmakers wanted to risk casting a vote against God.
James Madison believed that the only way to preserve both religion and government is to maintain a safe distance between them. “The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatever, ” wrote Madison, “beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against the trespasses on its legal rights by others.”
Madison got it right. Too many of our schools are getting it wrong.
Why?
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183 comments Add your comment
jopar
November 24th, 2009
6:33 am
Whatever it is, it isn’t motivated by any rationale or emotion that Jesus would condone.There’s an underlying meanness to it that is scary.For some of the extremists, it’s literally “agree with me or I’ll kill you.”
I’m certainly not the first to note the similarity in these folks and Islamic extremists.
Larry
November 27th, 2009
5:57 am
This is purely a constitutional issue and making anyone feel good or bad is immaterial.
It wouldn’t surprise me if most of the landmark cases actually originated in the North. The 1963 case over school sponsored prayer (everyone remembers Madalyn Murray O’Hair, but the case was actually Abington v. Schempp), school holiday naming standards and selling Creation as Intelligent Design were Pennsylvania cases.
The South seems to have more local issues, such as the one mentioned above, which require adherence more than standard setting, but one big difference is the media attention attracted by politicians to a given case. Around here, you don’t have to look hard to find politicians willing to declare themselves the sole guardians of Christianity, but this is much less common in the North because of the different voting base.
When half your constituents send their kids to Catholic school, you talk about funding their transportation costs and skip the part about how public schools they don’t attend are threatening the existence of their religion.
George
November 27th, 2009
6:57 am
You all may understand after the rapture occurs. Jesus will be returning to earth to gather His people.
netgnat
November 27th, 2009
7:06 am
Jopar, which Christian said “agree with me or I’ll kill you”? I’d like to see where you get this quote from. Thanks.
Randy Cooper
November 27th, 2009
7:11 am
Maybe if we handed out more Bibles, we’d hand out less condoms…. If you don’t like the way we do it here, Delta is ready when you are.
Jebus
November 27th, 2009
7:14 am
netgnat, how about this:
Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.”
Suzy
November 27th, 2009
7:14 am
I realize you are writing an opinion piece, but my guess is you have no idea what the real situation was at this school. I seriously doubt it was the school that was handing the Bibles out. It was most likely a group of students wanting to share their faith with whomever wanted to listen with no requirement that anyone listen or take the Bibles at all. If a group of another religious faith wanted to do something similar would you have even written this piece? It seems to me that people who argue “church and state” issues would increasingly rather that christianity be completely stamped out of our society and let government guide our every thought, move and choice. Part of our society’s issue right now is there isn’t enough “church” involved in the state. It’s all about power. I say kudos to those who are not afraid to let their schoolmates know they are proud to be Christians and are willing to share something positive rather than bow to those who would rather give every situation a negative spin to suit their own political leanings.
KIM
November 27th, 2009
7:24 am
Netgnat: well, the guy that killed Dr George Tiller basically said that. Randy Cooper: no, YOU LEAVE. I think Iran has the theocracy you are looking for. George: the rapture? What in the world are you talking about? Weirdo
downsouth
November 27th, 2009
7:25 am
mr. cooper, your analogy just doesn’t work. some of the most hot to trot chicks i knew in high school and college were southern baptists. they didn’t drink, but boy did they like to get in positions where condoms were needed ; ) one guy i knew prided himself on sleeping with all the hotties in the uga baptist student union. unite they did!
fieldofdreams
November 27th, 2009
7:29 am
Shine: make ‘em wonder what you got. Make ‘em wish they were not, on the outside looking bored. Shine: let it shine before all men, let ‘em see good works, and let ‘em glorify the Lord.
Earl V. Ford Jr.
November 27th, 2009
7:29 am
Is there a problem with having those who would like to accept the Bibles do so and, those don’t want one, simply say “no thank you?”
fieldofdreams
November 27th, 2009
7:41 am
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. Luke 19:40
Joy in Teaching
November 27th, 2009
7:46 am
Getting back on subject here….were the students forced to accept the Bibles? If not, what is the problem, exactly? Students (and teachers) are offered things at schools all the time. That doesn’t mean that they have to accept those items. It’s called “personal choice.”
John
November 27th, 2009
7:59 am
Just a point of clarification about “In God We Trust” on US currency.
The phrase was added to our coins during the Civil War – first appearing on the two-cent coin in 1864. Further details can be found here: http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml
David
November 27th, 2009
8:17 am
The article’s quote of Roger Williams was taken way out of context. For nearly 200 years in this country the Bible was respected and accepted. Please point out to me any case in which that led to Christianity ever being forced upon our society. It has NEVER happened in this nation. But in the last 50 years, with the Bible and Christianity being under attack in this nation have we seen the moral decline and proliferation of the problems of drugs, violence, teen pregnancy, etc… in our schools. Surely a “concerned parent” can find other issues to be “concerned about” rather than a Bible being offered, not forced upon students in the schools.
Dr. K
November 27th, 2009
8:28 am
Maureen Downey:
I want you to look up all of your teachers and contact them…so they can kick you for making them look like they did not do their jobs. Go back to Jefferson’s and Roger Williams quotes and understand their positions on the matter. Understand the spirit and context in which these statements were made…NOT the word for word quote that you copied and pasted off of wikipedia. I am embarrassed for you.
Who cares?
November 27th, 2009
8:28 am
You made your own argument for it Maureen. Freedom of religion and assembly doesn’t just apply to non Christians, but to Christians too. I doubt that the group forced kids to take the Bibles… simply handed them out to anyone who wanted one. How is that any different than handing out pamphlets on abstinence?
No wonder you have few people read your columns. I’m sure the ACLU will give you a job.
waterstim
November 27th, 2009
8:31 am
Giving out those Bibles has really gotten us close to civil war, hasn’t it? Look at the price this country has paid and is paying for turning its back on the Bible and accepting the Adam Lamberts of the world. It just keeps on getting worse; at some point, there will be a price to pay.
By the way, the 1797 Treaty was re-written, with those words left out, four years later, a fact that this blogger conveniently leaves out. Whether you accept it or not, most of our forefathers were practicing Christians. The Hollywood crowd and the Democratic party are Marxist, Godless perverts.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” How exactly do you get “separation of church and state” from this? OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF. How does this restrict handing out Bibles in schools? You liberals have made a mockery out of the constitution.
Ackshun
November 27th, 2009
8:39 am
I have never understood why the Bible makes even “Christians” so nervous. Would the parent mentioned above have been so concerned if the school handed out copies of “The Secret” or “The Da Vinci Code” probably not. The Bible is a unique work of literature with a very positive message. Considering the garbage that spews from the press to school library bookshelves and is made readily accessible frre of charge to any student wishing to have a go, why would anybody be concerned about a kid getting their hands on the ultimate self-help book? Ghandi read it (he never converted to Christianity by the way), so has just about every President that ever kept watch in the oval office. If a kid can read the words of a madman “Mein Kampf” in school, why not make the Bible available to them. What “never fails to stun me” is that so called liberal and open minded people seem to promote tolerance for everything but God and the Bible. You can be gay, lesbian, sex or drug addicted, anything but a Christian. Amazing in a world of tolerance that only God is rendered intolerable. And if I were him, I would be really disappointed in my kids for that. What are you afraid of?
Kevin P
November 27th, 2009
8:46 am
Does anyone yet realize that by not allowing the free expression of religion, anywhere, is in fact elevating the “religion of state” above all others? Atheism is itself a religion. Humanism is a religion. Believing NOTHING becomes a defacto religion. I recently read a novel which paints a scary, yet quite likely scenario of where we are heading. It’s fictional, but could easily happen. Read Jerry Jenkins’ trilogy Soon, Silenced, and Shadowed.
Get It Right
November 27th, 2009
8:48 am
Wow, Maureen, you leave out just enough critical detail to really screw up the discussion. You memntion “separation of Church and State, cite some various quotes from certain founders, but don’t give the actual Constitutional phrase. It reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .”. First Amendment – freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc. You also say that Bibles were handed out at a north GA high school. Who bought the bibles, the school or a private group? Did the school personnel hand them out or did students? Were they given to all students in class or handed to those who accepted them as they walked by?
This is a very good example of why we cannot have a civilized discussion on religion, race, abortion, or any other sensitive subject in this country. A lot of people use what they hear from the press as the major factor when forming their opinions. When the press fails to provide adequate information, then it is no better that the propaganda machines in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia.
Note to jopar and KIM regarding the, “agree with me or I’ll kill you”, viewpoint. Yes, there are some terrorists hiding behind Christianity, but they are shunned by the Christian community as a whole. When caught, they are punished for their criminal transgressions against society. Islamic Facism is based on text in the Koran and is endorsed and supported by the Islamic states and religious hierarchy. Big difference.
We all should care.
November 27th, 2009
8:50 am
I sent my children to a private christian school for all of the reasons mentioned in your blog. It was the best money I ever spent, and in the overall scheme of things, the costs were about the same is what many people pay for their car or truck. A good private christian school will provide a loving, caring environment with high academic standards, but will not allow the nonsense or bad behavior found in public schools. For those that would like a private school education for their children but don’t think they can afford it, there are scholarships available. You only get once chance to raise your children.
JohnD
November 27th, 2009
8:55 am
All you need to know about this state can be summed up in the lyrics to Randy Newman’s “I’m a Redneck.” Google those lyrics and Randy will explain it to you in stark detail.
That’s all that need be said on this topic.
Soo
November 27th, 2009
9:03 am
Maybe we should have copies of the Quaran handed out and see how well that goes over. If you allow one religion’s holy book to be passed out, then any other religion should have the same opportunity.
scott
November 27th, 2009
9:11 am
I know we are on vacation but this is shoddy reporting at it’s best. First were the Bibles handed out BY THE HIGH SCHOOL? I grew up in Virginia and the Gideons use to pass out the small New Testament Bibles every year across from the school. As you were walking home they would OFFER you a Bible.
It amazes me how Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, and any other religion is openly discussed and debated in publich schools all the time. However, Christianity is frowned upon as a topic to even be “touched”. Yes, I am a Christian, however if some of the basic day to day principles of Christianity were discussed (maybe compared and contrasted) as much as the other major faiths maybe we will see more positive stories other than the weekly “I can’t believe this is happening” stories we see out of Clayton County. Yes other districts have issues to, I am just using Clayton as an example due to the number of events involving teachers, students, and community members over the past few weeks.
Just because you do not agree with something does not mean it can not be a helpful guide. You may not agree with the Constitution but it still provides a legal framework for people to live by.
Ms Dorothy
November 27th, 2009
9:18 am
I think that is a blessing to hand out bibles you can acknowledge all other religions and you can teach about evolution but when The Truth is Being orchestrated then it’s a Problem it’s a choice, not all have to take that bible but it may be one person that may need that bible so We as a Christians Shouldn’t dispute this This is what got prayer taking out of School because Christians were Silence So I appauld the Schools that are doing this Praise God for that we need this all other things are taught in School but we are so Bold to take Christ out of it and You wonder why School shootings, Gangs, Teachers sleeping with Students, Children having sex in bathrooms and Drugs We need to check ourselves and see if we really want to mess with The all knowing Mighty Powerful God. Although God doesn’t come to destroy US Sin does but we embrace Sin when we PUsh GOd out; We invite Satan to come in and Have a Field day So May God of ALL True and Living God Have Mercy on Us as a Country and Nation…. Be Bless May we Repent and Get It right….
Pete
November 27th, 2009
9:20 am
If I was handed a Bible at my school, I’d rip the pages out of it and throw it away right in front of the givers.
Krebs
November 27th, 2009
9:21 am
Never thought I would say this but it is probably time to take a serious look at vouchers. Parents who think schools are corrupting their children would now be free to place their children in christian schools. They would have access to the bible for the full school day. Contract the public schools, hire the best teachers, solve the problems without all of the distractions of folks who are going to be constantly talking about how education has been going downhill ever since prayer was taken out of the schools. Give those folks schools where they can pray every minute of the school day. To keep forcing these individuals into public schools is a mistake. Let them go. Let the public schools move forward. They may find in several years down the road that the public schools have moved on and progressed while some of the these private schools are still stuck in the past and left behind.
Sluggo
November 27th, 2009
9:25 am
Jebus…Are you really making a case that Christians in the United States, as a matter of doctrine, would kill those who don’t believe in Jesus? No rational thinking a person in the universe could buy off on that case. The fact of your suggestion reveals both deep hatred and basic ignorance.
Donnie
November 27th, 2009
9:26 am
I will be visiting as many public school websites over the next few days posting this website:
http://www.freequran.com/html/front.htm
I think that the students might like to learn about the Quran, and this website is giving them away for free. Each of you should get a copy too.
Atl Resident
November 27th, 2009
9:26 am
More and more issues like these arise on news and everywhere to keep reminding us we are in the last days. When are we going to pay attention? And by the way whoever mention that the Quaran should be handed out, that basically is the Holy Bible just with a different name and rewording of the original stories in the Holy Bible.
Mateo
November 27th, 2009
9:27 am
Wow, Pete. You’re a tough guy. You show ‘em! Do you show the same respect for those “Sweet Valley High” books you’re still struggling to finish?
Bubba
November 27th, 2009
9:28 am
The problem, as I see it, are the circumstances under which the Bible is handed out to students. Students are required to attend school. If Bibles are distributed during school hours, a minor student could easily be “persuaded” to understand that his school is requiring him to accept the Bible as part of the curriculum. There are no parents or guardians of the student present when the Bibles are distributed to tell the student that he/she is not required to accept the gift. It is the distributor of the Bible who use these circumstances to unduly persuade the student that, because they’re handed out during school hours, he/she is required to accept it.
The student can read “Mein Kampf” in school, yes. But “Mein Kampf” isn’t distributed during school hours to each student during school hours. I encouraged my child to read “Mein Kampf,” but only so that I could do my job as a parent to discuss the book with my child, explain the context of the book with him and help him discern his own feelings.
Knowledge and ideas are dangerous only when they are either forced upon the student, or are offered as persuasion in an environment the context of which suggests that the have no choice but to accept the teachings of the “lesson” lest they be ostracized or ridiculed for “bucking the norm,” be those lessons from “Mein Kampf” or the Bible. It is my job as a parent to teach my child a system of values, attitudes and beliefs, in order that my child, when he becomes an adult, has the unfettered environment in which he may ultimately choose for himself. That, in my opinion, is what America is all about: the freedom to choose for himself.
What am I afraid of? That Christians are so worried that the message of their teachings are so weak that they use all circumstances available to them to force their beliefs, either through intimidation or coercion, into the empty vessel of a child’s mind. Respectfully, that’s not your job. That’s my job as a parent. If you want to make “Mein Kampf,” the Bible, or any other piece of literature available to anyone by placing it in a library for a student to check out, I’m all for that. But until math books are made available to any student attending church during services, I oppose. I object not so much to passing out the Bible during school hours, but rather the usurpation of my rights as a parent to control the environment in which my child gains knowledge. “Free will” also means the freedom to say “no.” Passing out Bibles during school hours creates an environment in which the freedom to say “no” is removed, either by enforcement of rule or by using “peer pressure” to remove the perception of freedom.
Kevin P
November 27th, 2009
9:34 am
Pete, I’d defend your right to do that. It’s their choice to offer it. It’s your choice to accept it. And it’s your choice to do with it what you want. I’m praying you’ll get curious as to what you’re throwing away, though. For 24 years I felt the same way as you and wouldn’t open a Bible. Now, it’s so much more than simply a book to me. I know it is God’s Word. Hope you’ll take a look someday soon too.
soulfinger
November 27th, 2009
9:40 am
I say “why not?” Even though I myself am not a Christian..nor do I consider myself of any one particular religion. But what harm could it possibly do? Maybe people will start treating each other better!
JTex
November 27th, 2009
9:41 am
“What “never fails to stun me” is that so called liberal and open minded people seem to promote tolerance for everything but God and the Bible. You can be gay, lesbian, sex or drug addicted, anything but a Christian. Amazing in a world of tolerance that only God is rendered intolerable.”
I see that this particular bit of illogic persists…For one, given the predominance of Christianity in this country it is ludicrous to suggest that Christians are persecuted or forced to hide. For another, this “liberals are intolerant of Christians” thing is utterly ridiculous. What “liberals” are intolerant of is proselytizing by ANY religious group in schools or other government-funded organizations. We are intolerant of ANY religious group attempting to use religious prejudice or taboo as the justification for laws that limit individual freedoms – Blue Laws, for example. We are not “intolerant” of Christians, in fact you’ll find that most of us ARE Christians. And seriously – the constant equating of gays and lesbians to drug addicts, child molesters or what-have-you by so-called loving Christians is offensive and ignorant.
Similarly the “atheism is religion” argument is pure sophistry. By definition, “religion” involves a systematized collection of beliefs shared by its members that refers to a higher power. The fundamentalist factions of Christianity have attempted to make this logically fallacious claim for years now, in order to make it seem as if the absence of religion is a religion in and of itself, but it is absolutely false.
“And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. Luke 19:40″
Yes…Islamic fundamentalists claim that they have a mandate from God that requires them to convert others, too. You’re in such…good company. If you were a decent human being, you would respect the rights of others instead of attempting to force your own on them.
Fundamentalists of whatever religion are the lowest form of human being. The world would be so much better off without the rigidity of thought and the inherent hatred against those who are different that fundamentalists live for.
Bill
November 27th, 2009
9:46 am
If we aren’t a Christian nation, then why do we observe the federal holiday of Christmas? Thanksgiving is also a holiday for thanking God, as declared by President Lincoln. So much for a wall between church and state.
Crazy World
November 27th, 2009
9:54 am
Sooo:
I hate to say it but the Quaran IS already being handed out at schools along with groups that wants to destroy all Christians for their beliefs. Please look at the overall picture. If you think that Christians are the only one’s passing out Bible’s or other coorespondence, you need to look again.
I do feel sorry for the non-believers and pray for them. Hey, this IS apart of God’s plan. Read Revelations! It’s only going to get worse. Why do you think this country is going down quickly? Just keep taking God out of everything and see how low this country will go. Look at the great nations of past history. They became great on putting God 1st! They fell when they ignored God and brought in other FALSE religions & FALSE prophets.
Jesus is the truth, they only true living God that beat death. Mohamed????? never understood that one. They say that he defeated death………. Oh, by the way, they found his bones. False prophet. Of course they never found Jesus bones and never will. He conquered the grave!
Echo
November 27th, 2009
9:56 am
Ms. Dorothy, that was the longest sentence I have ever read. I’m not sure why you capitalized a bunch of those words either.
On topic, schools shoudn’t allow ANY religion access to students on the school property. They are a “captive audience” and shouldn’t have religion thrust upon them. They are free to read the bible, bring it to school, go to the church of their church and even PRAY in school. I love when people say we “took prayer out of school”…we didn’t! Students are allowed to pray on their own, we simply do not force them to like we used to (we now have a “moment of silence and self reflection” in Georgia schools, lol). I see many students close their eyes and murmur a little prayer every time I hand out a test. I believe if they had actually studied and prepared it would be more beneficial but whatever.
Devildog
November 27th, 2009
9:57 am
Jebus: Exodus was written long before Christ. It’s in the Old Testament. Duh! If you’re going to be clever, at least know what you’re writing about.
Rightwing Troll
November 27th, 2009
9:57 am
Why do you always take more than one southern baptist fishing with you?
Answer: Because if you only take one, he’ll drink all your beer!
JohnD
November 27th, 2009
9:57 am
Everything you need to know about the State of Georgia can be summed up in the lyrics to Randy Newman’s “I’m a Redneck.”
Google that and you will understand.
By the way, I’m a native Georgian and call ‘em like I see ‘em.
Devildog
November 27th, 2009
10:02 am
Too bad we can’t get Jefferson and Roger Williams on Oprah or The View so that they could straighten out Maureen’s out of context quotes.
Social Studies Teacher
November 27th, 2009
10:02 am
Want to see something interesting…
Go to Georgia Standards .org
Look up World History Standards 9-12
Look at how many standards cover Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism…
Then go look at how many cover Christianity.
Christianity is only mentioned with the Fall of Rome and the comparison between Judaism and Islam. There is not even 1 full standard devoted to Christianity when Islam gets at least 5 and Buddhism/Hinduism get at least two.
Great parity there…
mom to four
November 27th, 2009
10:06 am
Why do you all continue to follow Maureen? She is just trying desperately to goad people into responding to her blog. She can’t or won’t follow real news about education issues, so she posts sensationalized stories that she knows will get a response. If parents or students offered the Bibles, then what is the problem? The Bibles were not forced on anyone.
The Wall Street Journal (a real newspaper) has had two news articles within the past few days about President Obama’s education initiative Race to the Top. Has Maureen even mentioned this?
Notallagree
November 27th, 2009
10:10 am
People hear this type of info and just accept it as history. It is just as easy to argue the other side. Here are a couple of resources to start with:
http://www.christianheritagemins.org/articles/The%20Myth%20of%20Article%2011.pdf
or read a book:
America’s Providential History (Including Biblical Principles of Education, Government, Politics, Economics, and Family Life) (Paperback)
~ Mark A. Beliles (Author), Stephen K. McDowell (Author)
Ole Guy
November 27th, 2009
10:17 am
People like this Cooper fella just piss me off no end! If one dares disagree with a belief, one way or another, well, “Delta’s ready…”. Who in the hell do you think you are, Cooper…some sort of smaller-than-life demi-god? You can take your “Delta’s ready…” nonesense and, together with your pea brain, GO TO HELL!
As for the insistence of the education elite in allowing an excess of tax-supported public ed energies to be directed toward non-academic end…perhaps this is why we have such a woeful state of education. Weather or not one chooses to pursue ecclesiastical studies should be a personal choice, not one mandated, and most-certainly not publically-funded, by “big brother”.
And by the way, Cooper…what’s wrong with condoms? You’re not only a moron, but a stupid moron.
Devildog
November 27th, 2009
10:20 am
Thanks for mentioning and agreeing with James Madison. He also wrote the Second Amendment, which allows us rednecks to carry firearms and hamper thugs from doing their business.
JANE
November 27th, 2009
10:24 am
Ms. Downey’s essay didn’t include the proximity to school, the quantity of bibles distributed, or whether the distribution was solicited. I revere the Bible as Yahweh’s inerrant Word, as I am a Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod Christian. As such, I actually read and study it. Jesus says at Acts 1:8, “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” I believe the primary concept in this commission is the “witness”. Christians witness with their lives (i.e. words, actions-Elohim knows and judges our thoughts); in fact, the Greek word for “witness” is martyr. Since Christians are simultaneously saints and sinners, the seduction of extremes is a real danger, requiring constant vigilance, repentance and restitution.
Luke 3:7-16, Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 give some insight into what kind of Christian witness we should give. Christians should be the best scientists, thinkers, workers and citizens. Oftentimes we’re not, and although God forgives we must still acknowledge and correct ourselves with our neighbors.
Friday
November 27th, 2009
10:27 am
A few thoughts…
The wall of separation was intended to protect the church from the state. The historical context shouldn’t be ignored. Our country was founded by people who were forced into one form of Christianity or another by their European nations/kings. The American formula was to inhibit the state from imposing itself upon the Christian church. At that point, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, ect… were all prevalent and accepted in America. The intent of separating church and state was merely to allow these groups to co-exist rather than repeating the bloody history after the Reformation in Europe.
Today, we have a completely different society. Rather than protecting different forms of Christianity, our government tries to protect every religion equally. As noted above by others, this is really an impossibility. Atheism is the new state religion of the US. Good thing our hope is in Christ alone!
Bob
November 27th, 2009
10:29 am
What are the bible-toters worrying about?
They certainly are by far the majority in Georgia and the South. With churches on every corner, a large majority in the state-house, and state laws that represent their wishes (read liquor laws), they still find a need to offer bibles to students at schools.
I am old enough to remember when Pastor Louie D. Newton of the Druid Hills Baptist church fought against mixing church with the state.
The controversy at the time was over President Truman’s decision to send an ambassador to the Vatican. Truman, by the way, was a Baptist himself.
Missionary zeal is offensive to many of us. This type of thinking fits in with our problems today. Witness our attempts to convert the world to “Democracy” through what amounts to a crusade. Of course we have no problems in this country to worry about and some people never saw a war they did not like.
Bubba
November 27th, 2009
10:34 am
Whether the United States was founded as a Christian nation or not is irrelevant to this issue. The Constitution states: “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” How exactly does that sentence prohibit the handing out of religious material in schools?
Ignatius
November 27th, 2009
10:42 am
You hypocrites! You swear on the Bible in a court of law and put the Ten Commandments on top of your Supreme Court Building. You put “In God We Trust” on your money and “Endowed by Our Creator” on the Declaration of Independence. Your favorite TV shows all deal with law and justice. Oh, heavens no we cannot hand out Bibles. We don’t want our children to actually learn what morality is. We can’t have that! but we can indoctrinate them with the evolution theory. What a joke!
Jebus
November 27th, 2009
10:46 am
To devildog: someone asked for a Christian quote that said “agree with me or I’ll kill you”?I gave them one from Exodus. Don’t Christians quote the Old Testament? Isn’t that where the Ten Commandments come from that Christians are always trying to ram down our throats?
fieldofdreams
November 27th, 2009
10:50 am
Perhaps a movie allusion will help: In “Close Encounters of the Third Kind”, some folks in Indiana are (unmistakeably) visited by a UFO. Nobody else knows about it, but the encounter changes them in ways they do not fully understand, and leads them to a Wyoming mountaintop, where they are transported off to another world. Meeting and following Christ is not unlike their experience. Is it any wonder that we feel so compelled to shout it from the rooftops?
Christians are Lemmurs
November 27th, 2009
10:55 am
The Bible was written by men, not by “God”. If the men who wrote the Bible were alive today they would look an awful lot like…L. Ron Hubbard. Please explain how humans who claimed to be divinely inspired 2 millenia ago have any more credibility than a man who claimed in the 1970’s to be divinely inspired? Christians are no less retarded than Scientologists. The only difference is that Scientology has not had enough time. Organized religion is a plague on society. It’s all a huge scheme to separate morons from their money.
fieldofdreams
November 27th, 2009
10:56 am
The real plague on society is sin.
I1this
November 27th, 2009
10:56 am
As a Roman Catholic I am a little concerned as to which one of the “christian” bibles was passed out? Remember “Christians”, there are multiple editions, none are exactly the same and none are accepted by each “christian” faith as cannon. Rather than bore you with the details, the “bible” is in its 9th edition from the time it was constructed (with numerous books not making it into one or the other). Translated into Greek by a bunch of egyptians. We don’t have editions 1-8 but based on the information we do have we know there are a sick number of errors (read the story of noah in each book and contrast), parts contradict each other (see the trinity, jesus at the temple, etc.) and parts where added or removed (idea of trinity was added to the bible to address the nature of god). In short any idiot who believes this book verbatum is a moron. If my child was handed a half complete math book, full of half truths and down right deception I wouldn’t stand for it. So I can’t say I would stand for it in any other subject. Either talk about all of it or none of it. And since the christians can’t handle the full truth, then we can talk about none of it.
KLB 129
November 27th, 2009
11:03 am
Here’s something – if a student doesn’t want the Bible, they have the freedom of choice to reject it.
fieldofdreams
November 27th, 2009
11:07 am
Jesus said His followers are salt and light, not morons and idiots; the day may come, however, when my freedom of religion is sacrficed on the altar of political correctness to appease those who can’t stand the light. When and if this day comes America will crumble before our eyes.
ScienceTeacher671
November 27th, 2009
11:07 am
IIRC, the reason the Catholic church formed schools in the United States is so that their children wouldn’t be taught the Protestant Bible and religion in public schools.
Maybe these groups should hand out Bibles at the local shopping center….
Really Now
November 27th, 2009
11:07 am
They give out condoms at school, why not the bible? Whats wrong with it? Did they preach to the child before they handed the book? Get over yourself and just accept that its the Bible and it was a gift over the Chrismas season. Deal with it and stop complaining.
I1this
November 27th, 2009
11:16 am
condoms are correct and true 99%. The bible is correct maybe 50% of the time. Condoms win.
“Oh god why have you forsaken me”……who exactly is he yelling to if he is god? What day was the last supper, and did jesus go to the temple in the morning or the afternoon? How was he able to get into jeruselum, eat the last supper, get picked up in the garden and then the next day he was in the temple?
Who discovers the cave is empty after reserrection? Who is in the cave waiting?
These are the problems with the bible folks both old and new testaments. Pick a book, each one is completely different at the key points.
Condoms are necessary..
Echo
November 27th, 2009
11:20 am
A few people keep mentioning this on here, so I have to ask…name one school in Georgia that is “giving out condoms”. I already know the answer to this. BTW, it isn’t against the constitution for schools to educate about birth control, so stupid to use that in an argument against school’s (government’s) promotion of a religious viewpoint.
montanadawg30
November 27th, 2009
11:44 am
At least in my state where I live now this isn’t going on.I left Ga. because this kind of crap goes on,the church is so involved in state functions and politics its not even funny. I was born and raised in Ga. and I can send my kids to school with the peace of mind knowing they arent going to have the Bible,Koran or any other religious texts crammed down their throats. Keep ‘em seperate hypocritical Christians,it’s why our great nation is here. Drink like fish on saturday worship on Sunday,what a load of baloney. You know who you are.
Bubba
November 27th, 2009
12:03 pm
Dear Echo: Please site the exact language in the Constitution that prohibits Bibles being offered at a school. And since you take issue (correctly) at the language that schools are “handing out” condoms, please be more careful in your own language that the “schools (government) promotion of a religious viewpoint.” Nothing of the sort is true.
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
1:08 pm
Matthew 22:20-22(King James Version)
And He saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
They say unto Him, Caesar’s. Then saith He unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him, and went their way.
Please…MARVEL AND BE ON YOUR WAY!
Even Jesus, my hero, understood separation of faith and state.
sanborn121
November 27th, 2009
1:09 pm
it’s not rocket science, take God out of the schools and you’ve got the big mess we have today! Dysfunctional families galore!
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
1:33 pm
Maureen- do you have a Philosopher filter?
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
2:12 pm
sanborn121: When did schools become churches? And what are you going to do about the Jewish teacher? Or the agnostic teacher, or the atheist teacher, or the Moslem teacher? How will you knowwhat the teacher believes or will teach? SO how about we leave the religion thing to the God and the parents, OK?
As a Christian, the number one reason, I don’t want these people handing out Bibles and taking it upon themselves to “witness” to kids is because even among Christians, interpretations about right and wrong, how we should behave, how we should worship, and even what a Christian is, varies. While Jesus was on earth, he was a rabble rouser. He befriended crooks and prostitutes, lived among them, and loved them all. And he frequently chastised the self-serving, self-righteous religious rulers. He didn’t stand at the pulpit of a megachurch and rave and rant. He walked among the people. He entreated us to love EVERY man. He taught us not to judge until we are perfect. He said it is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. He was the ultimate Liberal. Now, do you think THAT”S what the right wing conservative Chrisitians are out there to teach the kids…HECK, NO!!
6th Grade Teacher
November 27th, 2009
2:16 pm
Just ask about the local GCPS school that asked Islamic Leaders to come into the school to teach, yet “couldn’t find” a Chirstian Leader to do that same!
JTex
November 27th, 2009
3:10 pm
“I hate to say it but the Quaran IS already being handed out at schools along with groups that wants to destroy all Christians for their beliefs. Please look at the overall picture. If you think that Christians are the only one’s passing out Bible’s or other coorespondence, you need to look again.”
Really? Can you cite a source giving verifiable examples of this, or are you just being paranoid?
“You hypocrites! You swear on the Bible in a court of law and put the Ten Commandments on top of your Supreme Court Building. You put “In God We Trust” on your money and “Endowed by Our Creator” on the Declaration of Independence. Your favorite TV shows all deal with law and justice. Oh, heavens no we cannot hand out Bibles. We don’t want our children to actually learn what morality is. We can’t have that! but we can indoctrinate them with the evolution theory. What a joke!”
Let’s talk about jokes…One, you don’t swear on Bibles anymore if you choose not to. Try and keep up with the actual world and not what you see while watching Matlock and gumming your food. Two – as has already been pointed out, In God We Trust was added during the Cold War as a reaction to the “godlessness” of theh Communists. The reference to “our Creator” is a Deist statement – the Enlightment saw the rise of reason over superstition, and Deism, which posits a “natural” and rational God was very popular. Please look up “Ceremonial Deism” if you need to, for further explanations of various Deistic references in our traditions. Three – What exactly does “law and justice” have to do with Christianity? Are you implying that there is no law or justice without religion, or that morality does not exist without religion? You understand that the moral and ethical underpinnings of Western society originated with the GREEKS and are pre-Christian, right? Last – sigh…indoctrination with evolution theory…I can’t even begin to address the ignorance here…the words I would have to use would be too big for you to understand. In brief – many, if not most, Christians around the world have no problem reconciling the tenets of their faith with the SCIENTIFIC THEORY (please check the difference between your vernacular definition of theory and the definition that applies to scientific theories) of Evolution. And, in fact, science makes no attempt to claim that they SHOULDN’T coexist. Humean skepticism, which informs the positivist/realist hegemonic paradigm in the natural sciences today, demands that science ignore questions of the metaphysical (such as causality) and concentrate only on understanding better the processes by which the universe operates.
The world would be such a better place if people kept their religion in their private lives, and concentrated on their own behavior, rather than being so bloody concerned with forcing their religion on other people.
JTex
November 27th, 2009
3:25 pm
To Social Studies Teacher, who claimed the disparity between Christian and non-Christian topics in the 9-12 standards…you really should assume that people are going to check these things when you say them, so you should verify your facts.
From the Georgiastandards.org 9-12 World History standards:
Describe polytheism in the Greek and Roman world and the origins and diffusion of Christianity in the Roman world.
Explain the Great Schism of 1054 CE.
Describe the impact of the Crusades on both the Islamic World and Europe
Analyze the relationship between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Analyze the process of religious syncretism as a blending of traditional African beliefs with new ideas from Islam and Christianity.
Describe the political impact of Christianity; include Pope Gregory VII and King Henry IV of Germany (Holy Roman Emperor).
Explain the role of the church in medieval society
Analyze the impact of the Protestant Reformation; include the ideas of Martin Luther and John Calvin.
Describe the Counter Reformation at the Council of Trent and the role of the Jesuits
Describe the English Reformation and the role of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I.
Sooo…basically, you are wrong. There are a number of other areas in which discussion of religion and Christianity would be inherently involved, such as the Renaissance. Let’s be honest as to what you REALLY want…you DON’T want other religions discussed at all. You DO want Christianity to be treated as if it is correct and other religions are wrong. You DO want to underplay the role of other religions in the development of the world – which is fairly arrogant, ignorant and short-sighted, particularly for a “Social Studies Teacher”. I know…how about we just teach history AS IT IS instead of attempting to turn it into a revisionist pile of nonsense.
sanborn121
November 27th, 2009
3:40 pm
Philosopher, how about teaching your children right and wrong so that when they are at school, they can say ‘NO THANK YOU” to the bibles. Oh yes, that just wouldn’t be politically correct.
sanborn121
November 27th, 2009
3:45 pm
to the agnostic, athiest and muslim teachers…deal with it! If you don’t like it, go to a country that supports only that belief. China:atheist, Pakistan:muslim. Most born in this country are tired of how we have pacified others for too long! We are a Christian nation. We were founded on Christian ideals.
Reality
November 27th, 2009
3:52 pm
I1this, to further illustrate your point I suggest they Google The Synod of Carthage.
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
3:53 pm
sanborn121- What an arrogant, out-of line assumption…just the sort of thing I am talking about! My having a different opinion from you does not mean my children do not know right from wrong! My kids should not have to say “no” to someone handing out Bibles at school…THAT”S THE POINT!
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
3:59 pm
sanborn121: Yes, by all means…let’s purge America of all non-whatever version of Chrisitans of the variety only YOU think is the correct one. And do we all have to be white, AngloSaxon, and blue-eyed? Hmmm, Ideas like that birthed the death machine that killed over six million Jews…How lovely!
Rachelle
November 27th, 2009
4:45 pm
We wonder why the world is in the shape that it is in. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light.
Linda
November 27th, 2009
4:48 pm
Dear George,
After the rapture, I usually have a cigarette.
Cletus
November 27th, 2009
5:39 pm
I don’t see a problem with letting religious groups hand out their religious tracts as long as all denominations are allowed to do so without discrimination. I do draw the line at letting the majority force teachers to lead state-sponsored incantations to their mythological entity.
Echo
November 27th, 2009
6:07 pm
Bubba, it’s the first amendment, read it or have it read to you. Sorry you aren’t familiar with the document. In a nut shell it basically says the government can’t promote any particular religious beliefs…that includes handing out chrisitian bibles at schools.
I don’t have a problem with schools providing condoms. I really wish they would have them available at the high schools, maybe then I wouldn’t have so many pregnant girls in my classes. I don’t filter what I say because I fear some may be offended, I pretty much tell it how I see it.
And btw, it’s CITE not “site”.
RC35
November 27th, 2009
6:22 pm
How ironic that, just a few weeks ago, libraries across America promoted “Banned Books Week” inviting people to read “banned books.” Of all the books in America, the Bible seems to be the one most banned these days.
Remember two things: First, this is a VOLUNTARY Bible distribution. Nobody has to take one.
Second, the same First Amendment that prohibits establishing a religion also forbids “prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” For four decades plus, the Supreme Court seems to have remembered only the establishment clause and forgotten the free exercise one. The two can coexist, and did, until the Warren Court kicked off the suppression of Christian expression.
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
6:30 pm
Oh, PLEASE! Bibles are not “banned books”. You just have to hand them out somewhere besides public schools. A group so determined as to side-step the law and go after children is really scary…and I bet YOU would have been screaming bloody murder if a group had taken a bunch of Harry Petter books or “Twilight” books and handed them out for free at school. Stay away from impressionable kids- hand out Bibles to adults…all over the place. But leave the task of teaching religious faith to God and the parents. ONLY!!!
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
6:32 pm
Potter, that is
Aquagirl
November 27th, 2009
6:50 pm
Maureen, after reading some of these responses, you should understand…yep, it’s a bible belt thing. Religious wackos here are forever ready to trample anyone if you don’t leave “their” country.
Sam
November 27th, 2009
6:53 pm
We Christians believe Bibles make wonderful gifts for everybody. So what is wrong with offering gifts to people?
JTex
November 27th, 2009
6:58 pm
Fascinating…while applying for grad schools I recently spent a year working at Barnes and Noble…we had three shelf sections that were nothing but Bibles…that’s pretty good for a “banned” book…a “banned” book that is among a small number of books that are excluded from all Bestsellers Lists because they habitually top sales figures. Do you feel silly now, or are you just…incapable of rational thought?
I don’t know how many ways it can be said. NO one is attacking religion in this country. Well, there are fundamentalist Christian types who are attacking other religions, but other than that…I just don’t understand how anyone can rationally argue that limiting the role of religion within public-funded institutions like the school system equates to “suppressing” Christian expression. It must be occurring in some tiny little part of the country, because, besides Georgia, I’ve lived in North Carolina, New York, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Texas…and there is certainly no shortage of “Christian expression” in any of those places. I’m a doctoral student at a University of Texas school, and not only is there an on-campus chapel that is decidedly NOT non-denominational, but there are dozens of Christian student associations that advertise on campus, hold their events on campus, etc. It’s absolutely ridiculous to suggest that Christianity is being persecuted…anyone who says so needs to climb down off the bloody cross…someone needs the wood.
No – the only people who claim this “persecution” are the fundamentalist bigots…those who believe that Christianity should be the state religion, and that everyone should either bow to their will or be relegated to second-class status. It’s the same people who see the phrase “Happy Holidays” as being offensive, or who aren’t satisfied with Nativity scenes at the hundreds of local churches, but demand that they appear at the County Courthouse as well, or those who don’t understand why a sanctioned prayer of ANY religion at a public school is inappropriate.
It isn’t about persecution – it’s about an ignorant and uneducated belief that says that if Christianity is not elevated to a position of superiority within the society, if it is not given hegemony over all of the citizens of the United States, then there is some conspiracy to destroy it. It’s ludicrous in the face of the number of Christians in this country, but then…the people who advance this nonsense aren’t interested in logic, or reason, or anything other than their beloved persecution complex.
And I say this, by the way, as a life-long Episcopalian. Contrary to the assertions of the back-water Baptists and barely literate Evangelical types, there are MANY Christians in this country who don’t demand that everyone bow to their rule. It’s only the idiots.
JTex
November 27th, 2009
6:59 pm
“We Christians believe Bibles make wonderful gifts for everybody. So what is wrong with offering gifts to people?
The same thing that is wrong with banging on someone’s door and demanding to know if they have a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” – a phrase which makes me want to vomit. It’s rude, it’s intrusive, and it’s NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS.
Echo
November 27th, 2009
7:19 pm
JTex pretty much said all that needs to be said.
willie
November 27th, 2009
8:09 pm
I made a comment and it is not showing so please excuse me if I posted the same remarks more than once
willie
November 27th, 2009
8:12 pm
JTex:
You have lost all credibility with the word DEMANDING. Surely you have been turned over to a reprobate mind and discussion with you is absolutely impossible.
What is a REPROBATE MIND? Print Page
Smaller Text | Larger Text
Q. What does the Bible mean when it speaks of someone having a reprobate mind?
(Submitted by: S. W.)
A. The King James Version of the Bible (KJV) shows three verses in the New Testament which use the word reprobate:
“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient” (Romans 1:28)
“Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.” (2Timothy 3:8)
“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16)
Even if we don’t know what the definition of the word is, we can see from the context clues that it doesn’t mean anything of a complimentary nature! Someone didn’t like to retain God in their knowledge, so they became reprobate; men of corrupt minds are reprobate concerning the faith; someone denies God and is reprobate regarding good works. It sounds as if these people are not living the right way. They don’t seem to have a desire to please God. The result of their approach to life is this state of being reprobate.
willie
November 27th, 2009
8:17 pm
JTex:
What is a REPROBATE MIND?
Q. What does the Bible mean when it speaks of someone having a reprobate mind?
(Submitted by: S. W.)
A. The King James Version of the Bible (KJV) shows three verses in the New Testament which use the word reprobate:
“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient” (Romans 1:28)
“Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.” (2Timothy 3:8)
“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16)
Even if we don’t know what the definition of the word is, we can see from the context clues that it doesn’t mean anything of a complimentary nature! Someone didn’t like to retain God in their knowledge, so they became reprobate; men of corrupt minds are reprobate concerning the faith; someone denies God and is reprobate regarding good works. It sounds as if these people are not living the right way. They don’t seem to have a desire to please God. The result of their approach to life is this state of being reprobate.
Steve
November 27th, 2009
8:37 pm
Each student should be able to receive a Bible and read it if they want. Maybe they would understand God better and the science teacher may get some interesting questions about how the world was created!
Old School
November 27th, 2009
8:55 pm
What is the big deal with giving Georgia school kids a Bible? According to most folks, they can’t read ‘em any way.
td
November 27th, 2009
9:09 pm
lol Christians
Rational Universalist
November 27th, 2009
9:28 pm
I’ve always wondered at the quirk of intellect that would lead modern people to believe that a collection of works that were assembled largely based upon the strength of various factions at the time that the collection occurred was somehow the immutable word of God. Even after that particular codification, the Bible that is claimed to be a literal representation of an omnipotent and omniscient being continued to change over the centuries. Even today, there are many different versions and translations.
It’s a problem with definition – the phrase “literal word of God” leaves zero room for variation. Either it IS or it ISN’T. Given the vast number of Bibles that exist today, with differences in language, interpretation, and even in the books that are and aren’t included, there is no rational way to conclude that the Bible is the literal anything. This position is a reflection of the ignorance and stupidity of those who believe it.
I’ve no doubt that the high-school graduates, high-school dropouts, trade school repairmen and other sundry members of the intellectual lower class will continue to cling to their belief that the “Bible”, which is demonstrably NOT a monolithic and singular creation, and can therefore not be the immutable word of ANYTHING, is, in fact, more reliable than the scientific and philosophical explorations of two thousand years…
Nothing we can do but pray that the gene pool squeezes this sludge out. Please – do the human race a favor and die off.
TomT
November 27th, 2009
9:45 pm
Do you have God in your life? If not you may burn in hell
Yanamom
November 27th, 2009
9:58 pm
ScienceTeacher671 – You need to look at the history of public schools, they were created as a response to Catholic schools, Catholic schools were not created in response to public schools. When the first Catholic schools were being opened in this country, only the rich could aford to get an education, Catholic schools changed that. Before that, being educated was only for rich kids, whose parents could afford tutors or private schools. Public schools were a response to the percieved threat of Catholic schools educating the poor. Non-Catholics were afraid that Catholic schools would not only educate the poor, but also be used to convert the children to the Catholic faith.
extremerightwing
November 27th, 2009
10:05 pm
I am not sure what all of the fuss is about. These Bibles are usually handed out for free without any coercion by the Gideon’s International. This organization is the one who places Bibles in hotels, hospitals, doctor offices, military bases, etc. Again this is a purely voluntary effort and not attempt is made to make anyone take a Bible. Usually the Bibles this organization distributes contain the New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs.
Libs are always screaming about choice. Why not let groups like the Gideons establish a time they will be at the schools to hand out these Bibles if anyone wants one. If the students don’t want one, don’t take one.
If a school can allow condoms to be passed out, why not Bibles?
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
10:05 pm
This issue is NOT about having God in our lives! What bogus crap! This is about forcing YOUR version of God at children. Stick with adults and your own children…that should keep you busy enough. Share your beliefs with people who are old enough to make choices and tell you to go away if they choose. As a Christian, I am absolutely horrified at this bold, driven, insistence on going after children. This isn’t about offering a gift…this is about forcing YOUR chosen agenda on someone else’s kids!
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
10:13 pm
Here’s the big deal. Religion wields great power, especially here in the South. The people so intent on passing out Bibles in public schools are the same people powerful enough to coerce the school administrators to block the children from hearing the President talk to them about staying in school and working hard. These people would have you leave the country if you do not practice the same faith, in the same way as they do! It is no joke. There is no listening to reason, no acceptance of another’s right to worship as he/she sees fit. As a Christian and an American, I say this is frightening and we’d better pay attention here. Freedom from religious tyranny has been won, but it can be lost.
Rational Universalist
November 27th, 2009
10:19 pm
“Do you have God in your life? If not you may burn in hell”
The fact that you worship a version of God that would condemn you to a never-ending eternity of agonizing suffering for failing to properly worship him says a great deal about you and anyone like you. You can take your version of God and shove it. I prefer a more rational Deity, thanks. Your “God” is representative of the thought and moral processes of a five-year-old, cowering in the dark and praying for someone to protect him…grow up and embrace an idea of Deity that requires you to be a fully-functioning human being rather than a cowardly automaton.
Donnie
November 27th, 2009
10:25 pm
Muslim heaven….now that’s heaven. 40 virgins.
What’s Christian heaven got on that? Donte saw a parade everyday in the Paradiso. I don’t even like the one annually on Thanksgiving.
mmm, mmm, mmm Barack the LIAR Obama
November 27th, 2009
10:29 pm
If you don’t want one, don’t take it. How difficult is that?
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
10:33 pm
mmm.mmm.mmm- Don’t break the law, don’t pass out Bibles at school…how difficult is THAT?!
Ken
November 27th, 2009
10:35 pm
I believe a moment of silence would suffice in a government run school. It is healthy to close your eyes and pay respect for your existence before you begin your educational process. If you choose not to pray, you can take a 1 minute nap. Naps are healthy as well. No one should be intimidated by someone in silent prayer.
V for Vendetta
November 27th, 2009
10:36 pm
JTex,
Can we be friends?
As one of the (admittedly, very few) resident atheists on this blog, I am shocked, though not at all surprised, by the outpouring of vitriolic, self-righteous tirades from all the “Christians.” Surely your ire makes a better case against god than for him. As someone earlier mentioned, I would love to see the indignant responses sparked by someone passing out Korans at a metro high school. I would find the responses very interesting.
I’m not going to get into a debate with any of the true believers out there, but I’ll leave it at this: No matter how much you want to interpret things through your narrowly focused christian viewpoint, there is, should, and always will be a separation between church and state in this country. It is essential for our survival as a nation, and it has been encroached upon far too much already. (There were a few people who mentioned that we don’t have enough church in our state. I would kindly ask that they relocate to Iran to see how the whole theocracy thing is working out.)
I’m offended enough by all the god talk in my daily life, and I sure as heck would be pissed if someone tried to force a Bible into one of my children’s hands. Maybe I’ll respond in kind. Perhaps I’ll purchase a number of books and hand them out at schools around Atlanta–free of charge, of course. You might even want to read them:
God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins
Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris
Great reading material for all young, open-minded skeptics. How would that float your boat?
mmm, mmm, mmm Barack the LIAR Obama
November 27th, 2009
10:37 pm
There is NO law about handing the Bible out at school, maybe you should have paid more attention while you were there, Dufus.
mmm, mmm, mmm Barack the LIAR Obama
November 27th, 2009
10:39 pm
V, here’s one YOU should read….”It’s hot in hell” by deathbed conversions.
V for Vendetta
November 27th, 2009
10:42 pm
I don’t believe in hell. What a horrible (and most obviously human) concept that is. An all-powerful, though frightfully petulant, creator condemns people to an eternity of torment simply for not agreeing with him. And people claim that the Bible teaches morals?
mmm, mmm, mmm Barack the LIAR Obama
November 27th, 2009
10:44 pm
V, “I don’t believe”, is your problem, trust me you will.
jarvis
November 27th, 2009
10:45 pm
Proclaimed Atheists are ridiculous. It’s one thing not to believe in anything. It’s another to go about bragging about your belief in not believing in anything.
Oh look at the smart Atheist….he’s so clever. The way he’s figured out that every thing was caused by nothing. If you tell him your beliefs, he’ll tell you why you’re wrong. That’s how smart he is.
Oh, and he’s offended by your belief that he’s going to hell…even though he doesn’t believe in it.
Atheists are like the gifted kids in school that thought it was necessary to show everyone how smart the were. The better-adjusted gifted kids just roll their eyes.
irisheyes
November 27th, 2009
10:45 pm
There are too many unanswered questions here for me to make an informed opinion. Who was the group handing out the Bibles? Were they on school property or off? Were they physically handing the Bibles to students, or did they just have a bunch and people could come over to get one? The story seems a little thin on facts and just full of opinions.
BTW, I have no problem with groups coming in to pass out Bibles or the Quaran, or even the Commumnist Manifesto. Let the kids take them, read them, and become well rounded. I know that’s what the classes are for, but let’s be honest. Not enough of the classics are read in high school. I know there’s lots of books I wish I’d read. I’d love to now, but the mindless paperwork of teaching calls!
V for Vendetta
November 27th, 2009
10:50 pm
I’ll take my chances. Thanks, though.
Tim J.
November 27th, 2009
10:51 pm
Here is information that is not commonly known….Emjoy:)
Prayer in Public School – Overview of Governing Constitutional Principles
The history of prayer in public school is a story of legal interpretation. The relationship between religion and government in the United States is governed by the First Amendment to the Constitution, which both prevents the government from establishing religion and protects privately initiated religious expression and activities from government interference and discrimination. The First Amendment thus establishes certain limits on the conduct of public school officials as it relates to religious activity, including prayer.
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer. Good News Club v. Milford Cent. Sch., 533 U.S. 98 (2001); Everson v. Board of Educ., 330 U.S. 1 (1947). Accordingly, the First Amendment forbids religious activity that is sponsored by the government but protects religious activity that is initiated by private individuals, and the line between government-sponsored and privately initiated religious expression is vital to a proper understanding of the First Amendment’s scope. As the Court has explained in several cases, “there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect.” Santa Fe Indep. Sch. Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290, 302 (2000).
Prayer in Public School – Drawing the Line of Permissible Expression
The Supreme Court’s decisions over the past forty years set forth principles that distinguish impermissible governmental religious speech from the constitutionally protected private religious speech of students. For example, teachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the Bible, or other religious activities. Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962); School Dist. of Abington Twp. v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963). Nor may school officials attempt to persuade or compel students to participate in prayer or other religious activities. Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 599 (1992). Such conduct is “attributable to the State” and thus violates the Establishment Clause. Weisman, 505 U.S. at 587.
Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.” Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969). In addition, the Supreme Court has made clear that “private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression.” Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995). Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302. For example, “nothing in the Constitution … prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day,” and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.
Prayer in Public School – Our Country’s Legacy
It wasn’t until the early 1960’s that prayer in public school was “outlawed” by a new interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. In fact, the history of the U.S. includes prayer and Bible readings in all sorts of public places, including schools. In 1782, the United States Congress passed the following resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”
William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in U.S. public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the “Schoolmaster of the Nation.” McGuffey declared: “The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology.”
Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, (John 17:3); and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let every one seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3).”
Tim J.
November 27th, 2009
10:58 pm
Here is information that is not commonly known….Emjoy:)
Prayer in Public School – Overview of Governing Constitutional Principles
The history of prayer in public school is a story of legal interpretation. The relationship between religion and government in the United States is governed by the First Amendment to the Constitution, which both prevents the government from establishing religion and protects privately initiated religious expression and activities from government interference and discrimination. The First Amendment thus establishes certain limits on the conduct of public school officials as it relates to religious activity, including prayer.
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer. Good News Club v. Milford Cent. Sch., 533 U.S. 98 (2001); Everson v. Board of Educ., 330 U.S. 1 (1947). Accordingly, the First Amendment forbids religious activity that is sponsored by the government but protects religious activity that is initiated by private individuals, and the line between government-sponsored and privately initiated religious expression is vital to a proper understanding of the First Amendment’s scope. As the Court has explained in several cases, “there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect.” Santa Fe Indep. Sch. Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290, 302 (2000).
Prayer in Public School – Drawing the Line of Permissible Expression
The Supreme Court’s decisions over the past forty years set forth principles that distinguish impermissible governmental religious speech from the constitutionally protected private religious speech of students. For example, teachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the Bible, or other religious activities. Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962); School Dist. of Abington Twp. v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963). Nor may school officials attempt to persuade or compel students to participate in prayer or other religious activities. Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 599 (1992). Such conduct is “attributable to the State” and thus violates the Establishment Clause. Weisman, 505 U.S. at 587.
Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.” Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969). In addition, the Supreme Court has made clear that “private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression.” Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995). Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302. For example, “nothing in the Constitution … prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day,” and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.
Prayer in Public School – Our Country’s Legacy
It wasn’t until the early 1960’s that prayer in public school was “outlawed” by a new interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. In fact, the history of the U.S. includes prayer and Bible readings in all sorts of public places, including schools. In 1782, the United States Congress passed the following resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”
William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in U.S. public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the “Schoolmaster of the Nation.” McGuffey declared: “The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology.”
Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, (John 17:3); and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let every one seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3).”
commonly known….Enjoy:)
Big L
November 27th, 2009
11:18 pm
Road to hell- long and wide. Road to heaven- short and narrow. Modern times give me a new perspective on this everyday. What we want is more important than anythimg else. This has become a nation of filth and decay. This country has turned from god and in the same respect , he has remived his protection from it. Corrupt government, systematic removal of christianity from a childs every day life. I pray for my planet and country.
Atl Resident
November 27th, 2009
11:19 pm
It’s only sad that people are really naive about the truth. We keep ignoring the signs but judgment and the truth is on the way soon. These issues as well as the floods are just examples. We are and going to continue to see and learn the hard way. Everything was already perfect but “people” are the ones who have jacked the world up.
This blog is entertaining!
November 27th, 2009
11:25 pm
Wow – what a blog thread! This comment is my favorite – “Randy Cooper
November 27th, 2009 7:11 “Maybe if we handed out more Bibles, we’d hand out less condoms…. If you don’t like the way we do it here, Delta is ready when you are.”
That’s so funny – since I swear – everyone in the Bible is sleeping with someone/everyone/their brother or his goat.
ScienceTeacher671
November 27th, 2009
11:43 pm
I wonder what would happen if other, non-Christian, religious groups also took advantage of the opportunity to pass out their holy books at the same school? If the school allows Christian groups to do this, it would have to offer the same opportunity to other groups, would it not?
fred
November 28th, 2009
1:03 am
Wow, Georgia ranks last or dang close to it in education and YOU Maureen are worried about a damn bible? DO you ALWAYS write against Christianity in your SCHOOL blog or do I just seem to get “lucky” when I stumble upon it? Did you speak out about Muslim day in Gwinnett County where the Muslims come in to ‘educate” us poor hicks on the beauty of THEIR religion as well? Not that I really care.
I have an idea, practice what you preach (yuck yuck, get the pun?). Keeping YOUR religious beliefs out of a SCHOOL BLOG would set a wonderful example. How about focusing on some things that would actually help schools to better educate their students? I mean really, passing out bibles in schools where probably over 50% of the students can’t read can’t be THAT big of a problem……….
Heck on that note I reckon I’ve convinced myself that I am now in favor of them passing out Boble, or Torahs, or Korans in school if it induces the kids to educate themselves enough to read and understand the damn things lol.
What a joke. I read the titles included in your “recent posts” and I see two on fat porky pigs, two on a calender, one each on “Jaysus”, a dog whisperer, selling lessons plans, taking time OFF from schools for (gosh sakes sake), and the good old paddling debate. Do you ever write about the thing that is actually SUPPOSED to happen at school in the process of getting schooled? You know that waskly little thing called learning, or god forbid actually passing some tests and useless junk like that?
No wonder I send my kid to a private school, they actually focus on EDUCATION there, not on who is passing out a damn bible or who is fatter than who, (whom fatter than whom? hmmmmmm…. I’m sure someone will correct my grammar, although she hit the last person that tried to correct her, the feisty old bat). Come on I know you can fire the natives up and stir a useless whizzing contest with your hatred of Christianity but aren’t you SUPPOSED to be writing about school not God?
fred
November 28th, 2009
1:07 am
Edit on above post for clarity: First paragraph, last sentence. “Not that I really care” is open to interpretation of what I lack concern about. I lack concern about discussions on someone “educating” others on their religion, not that I don’t care about the peaceful followers of that peaceful religion of Islam. I actually think that all students should take a course called “religion” where ALL religions are presented in a “here is what folks following this religion believe” manner for educational purposes. Too many folks have no knowledge of ‘that other religion” they spend so much time putting down lol.
TheWay
November 28th, 2009
1:47 am
Just wow. The people who don’t want the Bibles handed out in schools have some very hateful things to say. There is a lot of judgement of others based on their beliefs, and mockery of Christians. I understand where people acting as Christians have driven away the very people they are supposed to be loving and saving, but I would have thought the people who don’t want Bibles handed out would be open-minded and thoughtful, rather than emotional and spiteful. Hand out the Bible, the Quran, the Torah . . . there is something to be learned from it all. Why all the fear? I happen to believe the Bible will teach you to love others as yourselves, and that Jesus died on the cross to forgive my sins. Yes, people who follow Jesus want to share the good news, but that doesn’t mean that you are being forced into religion. Those of you who quote the Old Testament to show a wrathful God happily forget the part where He gave His grace. So, whether you believe it or not, God loves you and wants a relationship with you. If you’ve read this, you have heard the news. If you choose not to believe it, then you are exercising the free will that God gave you. I hope someday you will change your mind. Whether you do or not, I respect your right to have an opinion, and to share it. I don’t believe you are forcing others to change their beliefs by saying what you believe, even if you believe nothing. If you choose to criticize or disagree with me, I respect that. If you hate me because of what I believe and have nasty horrible things to say, well, then I won’t hate you back. It’s hard to love people because we are human, but when you follow Jesus, you have to try. By the way – this country wasn’t founded on the principle of freedom FROM religion (ACLU) but the freedom of religion – where you can practice whatever you believe in a free manner. Does it sound like that’s where we are when we think that the Bible is an awful thing for a child to have? My children’s beliefs are rooted enough that I am not afraid of any people with other beliefs to talk to them, to interact with them, or to share their book of faith with them. I see a whole lot of fear on this blog (including by the original author) and not a lot of rational thought. So, again, wow. A Bible. Run and hide?
nemo
November 28th, 2009
6:07 am
I am 59 years old, when I was in the 3rd grade a local minister came to my class and handed out bibles. I chose the one with the zipper because I wanted to give it to my mother. She kept that bible and carried it to church with her for 40 years until she died. When we were going trough her things, I gave the bible to my daughter who carried the bible to church through her teens and now has a son and I’m sure he will carry the same bible when he gets older.
I guess what I am trying to say is leave it alone, if you don’t want a bible just don’t take it. This one made me proud when I gave it to my mom when I was 9.
nemo
November 28th, 2009
6:29 am
Godless people don’t believe in hell.
bronco
November 28th, 2009
6:33 am
When I was in the 3rd grade a man came to our class and gave out bibles. I chose the one with the zipper because I wanted to give it to my mother, she didn’t have one small enough to carry to church. I gave it to her and she carried it until she died. I gave it to my daughter and now she carries it. Wow whats wrong with that. What a great memory.
Mitch (the one in Rome)
November 28th, 2009
6:43 am
There are many layers to this issue as discussed on this blog regarding this article, but here are a few things to chew on.
1. The issue of church/state is not really understood, historically, by most. Separation of church/state is, at the heart, the belief that the church should not run the state and vice versa. Not that a person can’t practice their faith in public and at public places.
Muslims should be allowed to hand out Qurans if they want. Christians should be allowed to hand out Bibles. We are NOT an atheist society. This is not the former USSR in which all religion is viewed as the “opiate”. Put all religion in the public square and let reasonable people make their decisions. But do NOT begin to dissuade the establishment of religion and the free exercise thereof.
2. Georgia is NOT the only place this issue is dealt with. Are you serious? Have you never traveled outside of Georgia? I see this in many countries and many states in which I get to travel. Don’t show so much ignorance of the world around you dude.
3. Don’t make ignorant statements about Jesus saying that he would not condone handing out bibles. Have you read one lately from cover to cover? He was not crucified because he was “Mister Rogers”. He made some pretty exclusive statements that C.S. Lewis, the avowed agnostic, saw and thus he converted based on his conclusions.
4. Don’t make ignorant statements about Islam. Have you read the Quran lately? The fact is there is a mandate “dawa” to convert in Islam as well. We are a free country and should be allowed to put our exclusive beliefs on display, respect each other, talk about the differences, make our decisions and move on without the waste of journalism of such folly. This is called FREEDOM. Enjoy it or lose it.
5. Let go of the archaic and dying worldview that this should not be an issue. Dude, again, get out of Georgia and look around. Globalization is a reality and the world’s religions are at your front door. We must speak to each other, agree to disagree, do this with civility and honesty (not denying each’s exclusive truth claims), and allowing all to make their decisions as they desire. Even atheism. Although as a system of thought is dying for various reasons. Again, it’s called Freedom.
6. If we are going to have government schools, then they should not take the worldview of denying the existence of the various religions of the world by not allowing them to be exercised or debated at all. That is a blinders mentality that is ignoring reality and thus an opportunity to learn, but then again, the goal is not learning in government schools, it’s propagation of a government mentality and testing to get money. I don’t believe in government schools as it is, and this very article is why. They are blind and dumb regarding real learning and miss great opportunities like this to learn a global perspective and equip students to interact globally. Nowhere else in the world are kids so uni-cultural than in the USA. Nowhere else are kids so muted in discussion of and exposure to other beliefs and religions. It’s a shame. That is why I work my rear off to put my 3 sons in private school. I want them to learn, not be indoctrinated with an agnostic governmental approach to education.
Bottom line, it’s sad and ignorant.
william
November 28th, 2009
7:15 am
Why do we always get confused on this? Seperation of Church and state was designed to keep the state out of church affairs. That we would not have a state run church like we had in England. One of the the reasons we left. But,now that we are in such moral decay we twist it to fit our needs not as it was intended.
william
November 28th, 2009
7:34 am
“Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
Mike In Woodstock
November 28th, 2009
7:39 am
As a Christian, I do not want faith being taught in our schools simply because my kids teacher is more than likely a heathen who doesn’t worship the way I teach my kid to worship. On the other hand, the atheists don’t realize that you cannot legislate faith away, even in public schools…Don’t believe me? Go to a high school football game, you’ll see players kneel in prayer before the games. In rural areas, you’ll still see people in the stands praying. That’s not going to stop no matter what any judge rules.
catlady
November 28th, 2009
7:50 am
The Gideons gave them out, as they always do, to our fifth graders last week. These are the small New Testaments they probably gave out to fifth graders on Noah’s Ark (that’s a joke, people) I had no problem with it–although there was peer pressure to take one–but it led to teachers having to say, “Now put away your Bible and take out your science book.” That, in North Georgia, is kinda dicey.
Rex
November 28th, 2009
9:05 am
The explanation for the opinion piece is not difficult. Back in the cold war when it was the free world vs. the communists, both sides tried to implant spies and moles on each others soil. The communists probably did a better job of it than we did. They infiltrated the U.S. and did it mostly in fields where their prevailing view would last for generations. The fields of influence they managed to infiltrated most successfully were higher education, law and journalism. Thus, there is an anti-Christian view amongst the majority in the field of journalism.
Sarah
November 28th, 2009
9:09 am
I didn’t want to read through all the comments but you didn’t name the school where bibles were given out. I haven’t seen a bible being given out in our school system in over 20 years.
Cere
November 28th, 2009
9:16 am
I think teens should study the Bible, it’s highly educational and far more entertaining than television today. And, the stories themselves have a funny way of diluting the seriousness of these kinds of debates. Plus, at it’s core, the Bible explains many of the world’s conflicts – even today’s – as well as provides opportunity for some challenging math. I will share a sample lesson overview from a Bible study I once attended.
As far as our Bible Study today goes, we will leave behind the marked Cain in Genesis 4 (who exactly was he supposed to be afraid of out there?) and jump straight to Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 12. We skip Genesis chapter 5, which basically tell us about lots of incredibly old men who father sons and daughters when they are way past their prime (all without the benefit of Viagra, I might add). If my math is correct Genesis 5 spans nearly 1600 years and brings us to Noah, whom we all know built the ark (at the age of 500 plus). We also skip Genesis 6 through 9, which are all about that nasty flood, and Genesis 10, which is all about sons and tribes whose names I can’t pronounce. But I guess that’s an appropriate segue to Genesis 11, which is about the Tower of Babel and the Lord confusing the language of the entire world. When men can no longer understand one another, they go their separate ways. But the language barrier does not stop them all from continuing to father sons and daughters. They continue to multiply their way through Genesis 11 but they only live to be 200 to 400 years old instead of 800 to 900 years old as their predecessors did. (All that siring had to catch up to them sometime I guess.) Anyway, we finally get to Abram in Genesis 12, who was really a youngster compared to Noah. Abram (who later becomes Abraham) was only 75 years old when we meet him. And as far as I am concerned he wasn’t very nice to his wife.
Abraham’s wife, Sarah makes Hagar, her servant sleep with her husband, and when Hagar conceives, Sarah sends her off into the wilderness barefoot and pregnant. But God tells Hagar to go back. She does and delivers her baby boy – and Sarah sends them both packing again to the wilderness. Hagar perseveres through the tragedy of her life circumstances and God rewards her by making “a great nation {Islam] of” her son, Ishmael. In today’s world, all the great nations are already made. So those of us who suffer (and we all do) shouldn’t get any big ideas. But God hasn’t forgotten about us – that’s why he invented Prozac. And what happened to that nasty Sarah? She got to have a child when she was very, very old. She named him “Isaac”, which means “he laughs”, since she couldn’t stop laughing when she found out she was pregnant.
So you see, God does work in mysterious ways . . .
Leigh
November 28th, 2009
9:26 am
While at the gym last week, I saw a retired teacher. We sat and talked a few minutes. One of the topics of discussion, of course, was the state of our schools. She always began her day by having students read from the Bible, pray, and say the Pledge of Allegiance. She was not alone. Every teacher did that. When I see these teachers now, God bless them, I still answer with ‘Yes Ma’am’ and ‘No Ma’am’. I’m thankful I had teachers like them. It’s a shame that we’ve gotten away from it. You need only to look at today’s society to see what happens when values are thrown by the wayside. ‘Tis sad.
Echo
November 28th, 2009
9:56 am
Funny how people equate “today’s problems” & “moral decay” with taking “god out of schools”. All the problems we have today existed before, always have. You just didn’t hear about them because we have so much access to information today.
For those that keep arguing that handing out bibles at a public school is not specifically prohibited by the 1st amendment, you probably should read the supreme court’s rulings on some 1st amendment cases (ie: posting 10 commandments in coutrooms and pubic buildings). The 1st amendment is widely interpreted to prohibit any religious references/affiliations within or by government entities. “Freedom of religion” cuts both ways, you don’t get to interfer with other’s rights to not worship. When was the last time atheists handed out anything at a school or knocked on your door to get you to get jesus out of your life?
dbow
November 28th, 2009
10:33 am
It’s very easy for the people in the majority to say just say no to the bible, but were talking about kids here. Kids don’t want to look like the outcasts or be the different kid. You can’t expect a kid to reason like an adult. If in fact these bibles were handed out by school employees then clearly the law has been broken. If the bibles were handed out by a religious group on school property during school hours, then again the law has been broken. The law is very clear here. No preaching during school hours on school grounds. Before and after school religious groups are given wide latitude, but that’s it. It’s purely voluntary and even then, they can’t actively recruit during school hours either. The majority always thinks it’s easy to just say no when it’s their agenda that’s in question. It isn’t that easy.
mambo
November 28th, 2009
12:00 pm
I doubt that the lady Maureen Downey refers to is either a Christian or a “reverer” of the Bible. If she was, she would have no problem with evangelism or with the passing out of Bibles at a public high school regardless of the threat of litigation from the ACLU.
And, Madison did get it right, but Ms. Downey’s unenlightened misunderstanding of his comments fail to show an understanding that government and religion are to leave each other alone to freely exercise.
RJ
November 28th, 2009
12:21 pm
Although I’m a Christian, I disagree with Bibles being passed out to students. If we allow bibles to be given to students, then other religious organizations should be allowed to do the same. A public school is not the place. Parents have the right to send their kids to any religious school they choose.
One of the problems I see is how religion is handled in the public school. We are in the Winter Holiday season. Some public schools will have Christmas trees, Santa Claus and sing Deck the Halls. The reality is that we live in a pre-dominantly Christian society and the practices of Christianity will always be a part of public school.
Philosopher
November 28th, 2009
12:59 pm
@Big L. What a sad and bitter attitude. If you raise a child in Christ, he/she won’t be ruined in 6 hours of public school. No one is removing Christianity from a child’s life. Do you not manage to remain a Christian during your 8 hour work day? Those of us who are Christians teach our kids outside of school. We already have Bibles. The real agenda here is not protecting Christians, or Chrisitanity…I do believe He is quite capable of managing that… it’s about recruiting the young and impressionable. I do not WANT just anyone teaching my children about Christ and I certainly wouldn’t have public school teachers do it…or some rightwing conservative.
Jerry
November 28th, 2009
1:05 pm
Prayer should be put back into Schools.
Philosopher
November 28th, 2009
1:05 pm
mambo- your comments are very interesting. First, you don’t even hesitate to judge someone as a Chrisitan based on Your interpretation of how one should behave or think…Thank you for supporting my point so well…Your idea of a good Christian and mine are world’s apart…stay away from my Christian children.
Best of all- “Ms. Downey’s unenlightened misunderstanding of his comments fail to show an understanding that government and religion are to leave each other alone to freely exercise.” I absolutely agree- you stay away from the government(public school) and the government will stay away from your religious world… and all will be well
And MY point
Jerry
November 28th, 2009
1:06 pm
Enter your comments here
Philosopher
November 28th, 2009
1:52 pm
@Big L. What a sad and bitter attitude. If you raise a child in Christ, he/she won’t be ruined in 6 hours of public school.. No one is removing Christianity from a child’s life. Those of us who are Christians teach our kids outside of school and in church. We already have Bibles. The real agenda here is not protecting Christians, it’s about recruiting and making more of the kind you believe in. I do not WANT just anyone teaching my children about Christ and I certainly wouldn’t have public school teachers do it…or some rightwing conservative.
V for Vendetta
November 28th, 2009
3:58 pm
Mitch,
“Even atheism. Although, as a system of thought, it is dying for various reasons.”
As a proud and happy atheist, I’d love to know what those reasons are.
Simon T.
November 28th, 2009
4:33 pm
The writer of this article got it wrong because the U.S. was founded on Judaeo Christian principles. Proof: Our oldest federal buildings are in fact covered with biblical references.
In the past 50 years we have gotten away from our founding principles in the school system. Schools that ban God are breeding grounds for gangs, preteen pregancies and horrific violence. We never had tragedies like Columbine before this era. Perhaps handing out free Bibles might be better than handing out condoms.
Simon T.
November 28th, 2009
4:39 pm
V for Vendetta, one of the recommended books on your list is “The God Delusion.” I prayed for a coworker that had an inoperable brain tumor and they got healed. If you’re in an impossible situation you are deluded not to go to the only one who can do the impossible.
MsCrabtree
November 28th, 2009
5:21 pm
The more our country distances itself from religion, the worse off we will be. It is also very obvious that there are many anti-Christians out there. That’s right, give out condoms in school, teach about birth control and abortion, but not the Bible which is the textbook for morality. Even in the new disaster movie, 2012, Christian edifices take a hit but not any other religions. Hmmm.
Maureen Downey
November 28th, 2009
8:05 pm
Fred. Your comment prompted me to do a quick review. Out of the 461 postings I have written since I took over this blog in early August, I have written 14 dealing with religion in school. If my math is correct, that is around 3 percent. I think you are just lucky.
Maureen
ScienceTeacher671
November 28th, 2009
9:05 pm
Maureen, don’t get too defensive. You’re doing a great job!
Cere
November 28th, 2009
10:28 pm
461 postings since August?!! I suddenly feel very lazy! You go girl!
Philosopher
November 28th, 2009
10:52 pm
WOW- what convoluted arguments…this is like talking to stoned people! Do they not understand what we are saying, or do they just think we are too stupid to understand what they are up to?
There are Christians, atheists, agnostics, and people from all different religions who DON”T WANT YOU INFLUENCING OUR KIDS! Your insistence on ignoring that fact is a clear indictment of your motives…drug dealers enlist kids, guerilla soldiers enlist kids…why? Because they are iimpressionable and vulnerable. Practice your recruiting on any acceptable front, but stay away from public school kids!
JTex
November 28th, 2009
11:04 pm
When we last had prayer in schools, we also had segregation and Jim Crow laws. Women were beaten by their husbands, and the law protected the abusers. Gay people were murdered on the streets and no one cared. Blacks were lynched for daring to “talk back” to Whites. Blacks were forbidden from marrying Whites, and people who were “different” were persecuted with no legal recourse. You think that putting prayer “back in the schools” will make the world a better place?
There is a logical fallacy known as the “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. A “Post Hoc” fallacy is one in which an effect is inappropriately ascribed to an unrelated cause. For instance – relating the so-called “downfall” of society (I would argue that there is no such thing – personal freedoms have advanced substantially – legal discrimination has decreased dramatically, and people who aren’t ‘the norm’ are more and more shuffling off their second-class status) to the absence of prayer in schools is clearly a Post Hoc fallacy. It is…infantile…to relate the various complex social issues which are usually referred to by Christian Fundamentalists in this country as indicative of our “downfall, resulting from prayer being taken out of schools” to such a simplistic cause. But then – I wouldn’t expect anything but infantile thought from Religious fundamentalists, whose thought processes stopped maturing around the time they first found hair “down there”.
“I prayed for a coworker that had an inoperable brain tumor and they got healed. ”
I once stubbed my toe and it rained. That means that if there is a drought, I just need to stub my toe. Tell me – given your “conclusion” how do you explain the many, many people who pray for people who don’t recover? Are you truly so ignorant as to believe that your prayer was instrumental in the recovery of your co-worker? You might as well practice voodoo.
Religion isn’t about magic. It isn’t about demanding that everyone believe as you do. It’s about individuals and families and groups and friends who share common belief trying to make sense of their existence, trying to understand WHY WE ARE HERE. It isn’t about hate, it isn’t about discriminating against others, it isn’t about making yourself special. The sooner the human race learns that, the sooner people stop FLYING PLANES INTO BUILDINGS, or SHOOTING EACH OTHER, or BEATING EACH OTHER TO DEATH.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
Nome
November 28th, 2009
11:05 pm
When we last had prayer in schools, we also had segregation and Jim Crow laws. Women were beaten by their husbands, and the law protected the abusers. Gay people were murdered on the streets and no one cared. Blacks were lynched for daring to “talk back” to Whites. Blacks were forbidden from marrying Whites, and people who were “different” were persecuted with no legal recourse. You think that putting prayer “back in the schools” will make the world a better place?
There is a logical fallacy known as the “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. A “Post Hoc” fallacy is one in which an effect is inappropriately ascribed to an unrelated cause. For instance – relating the so-called “downfall” of society (I would argue that there is no such thing – personal freedoms have advanced substantially – legal discrimination has decreased dramatically, and people who aren’t ‘the norm’ are more and more shuffling off their second-class status) to the absence of prayer in schools is clearly a Post Hoc fallacy. It is…infantile…to relate the various complex social issues which are usually referred to by Christian Fundamentalists in this country as indicative of our “downfall, resulting from prayer being taken out of schools” to such a simplistic cause. But then – I wouldn’t expect anything but infantile thought from Religious fundamentalists, whose thought processes stopped maturing around the time they first found hair “down there”.
“I prayed for a coworker that had an inoperable brain tumor and they got healed. ”
I once stubbed my toe and it rained. That means that if there is a drought, I just need to stub my toe. Tell me – given your “conclusion” how do you explain the many, many people who pray for people who don’t recover? Are you truly so ignorant as to believe that your prayer was instrumental in the recovery of your co-worker? You might as well practice voodoo.
Religion isn’t about magic. It isn’t about demanding that everyone believe as you do. It’s about individuals and families and groups and friends who share common belief trying to make sense of their existence, trying to understand WHY WE ARE HERE. It isn’t about hate, it isn’t about discriminating against others, it isn’t about making yourself special. The sooner the human race learns that, the sooner people stop FLYING PLANES INTO BUILDINGS, or SHOOTING EACH OTHER, or BEATING EACH OTHER TO DEATH.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
JTex
November 28th, 2009
11:54 pm
Why are reasonable, civil comments being blocked from publication?
John
November 29th, 2009
2:08 am
Low SAT’s, administrators who change answers on standardized tests, incredibly high drop-out rates, miserably inefficient systems, and you get hot and sweaty about this? Good grief, no wonder Georgia’s public schools stink.
Bio Teacher
November 29th, 2009
8:56 am
John, your citations have NOTHING to do with your fairy in the sky God. They are a result of parents that REFUSE to act like parents, with or without some deity!
d
November 29th, 2009
9:08 am
I would argue that the moral decay in America is not from a lack of prayer in public schools. Parents are not instilling morality and respect in their children. I pulled a student in the hall to talk to him last week and he kept staring off in the opposite direction till at one point I told him it is extremely disrespectful not to look at someone who is talking to you. His response: “I don’t look at my dad when he talks to me either.” I’ve heard similar statements from other students throughout my teaching career.
Bio Teacher
November 29th, 2009
9:22 am
d, that is mild compared to what has been said to me. Again, it is a lack of parental responsibility and the presence of one or more parents. Try being a white male in a class room, you gain new insights into the ills of society…and it has NOTHING to do with the presence or absence of prayer in the class room or any where else!
ScienceTeacher671
November 29th, 2009
10:00 am
I still want to know why these groups aren’t handing out Bibles at the local shopping centers. Wouldn’t they reach a lot more people?
Bio Teacher
November 29th, 2009
1:59 pm
ScienceTeacher671, two reasons. 1) Public school students are a “captive audience”
2) High School kids and younger are less likely to object, refuse, or state what they believe and/or feel out of fear of retribution.
ScienceTeacher671
November 29th, 2009
6:44 pm
BioTeacher, there’s probably also a bit of rebellious spirit, to see if anyone will complain…but I think if the agenda were really to get The Word out to as many people as possible, the giveaways would occur a lot more often and in a lot more places, rather than just once a year in a public school.
V for Vendetta
November 29th, 2009
7:23 pm
Simon T,
One time, while I was taking a dump, someone was healed of cancer. Connection? I think not!
Your argument–and your grammar–are laughably weak.
Wounded Warrior
November 29th, 2009
11:05 pm
Tolerance is what led to the FT Hood shootings. We don’t need to shove multiculturalism down kids throats. When Bibles were banned, then kids brought guns to school.
freemarket educator
November 30th, 2009
3:03 am
It is obvious that compulsory school attendance laws violate the First amendment. Otherwise, we would not be blogging on this topic.
Christian Professional
November 30th, 2009
9:09 am
I am a member of the Gideons International, an association of Christian business and professional men whose sole mission is to lead others to a saving knowlege of Jesus Christ by distributing and placing Bibles and by personal wittnessing. We are organized in 190 countries and our 290,000 plus memebers place over 78 million Bibles and New Testements in 93 languages each year. We once were allowed to go into the schools and offer New Testements to grades 5 thru 12, but sadly the misguided efforts of those who demand “political correctness” have stopped that. We now must stand on the public sidewalk and offer the Testements to the students before they enter the school property. No student is forced to take a Testement, and we never set foot on school property. Perhaps if we were to allow God’s word and presence back into our schools we would read fewer headlines about children and young persons bringing guns and bombs to school in order to kill and injury themselves and others.
John K
November 30th, 2009
11:01 am
I think it’s a shame the churches and religious parents in Georgia must be so inadequate in teaching their children religion that people feel the need to have schools pick up the slack.
John K
November 30th, 2009
11:08 am
Christian Professional, it sounds less like “political correctness” but more like whining on your part that society is now recognizing that there is more than one belief, or lack there-of, in this nation. I’m always amazed at how some in the 85% majority religion in this country are so quick to scream persecution. No one is stopping you from practicing your religion, but go ahead and pretend that you’re skating on thin ice.
April
November 30th, 2009
11:12 am
NO such thing as separation of church and state anyway- it’s nowhere in the constitution. Students don’t need to accept the Bibles. They can if they want and many of today’s students need Jesus in their life!!! It’s when Bible reading and prayer were taken out of school that most of today’s problems began.
John K
November 30th, 2009
11:17 am
April, who are you to decide what students need in their life. And if you want to play the false correlation between Bible reading, prayer and today’s problems, then on the flip side you have to say that segregation and racism were because of Bible reading and praying.
And, just to clarify, prayer was never taken out of school. Administration led prayer yes, but any student can pray as necessary. Or does it only count when one does it publicly where everyone else can see how “devout” you are?
Ole Guy
November 30th, 2009
11:55 am
Fred, your comments of several days ago require no clarification whatsoever. The unwritten messages from the majority of these blogs tells me that, in order to be a good Christian, one has to go ape over the acknowledgement of The Lord. In contrast to your pragmatic view, it would appear that many consider the primary objectives, for which public education exists, are to take a back seat, in terms of time and energies, to the studies of religous faith. When these kids face the world head-on, the watered-down academics, for which the education system “accells” will have prepared them for nothing but a life of mediocrity…but hey, they’ll be a hit at the lunchtime Bible studies in the backroom at McDees!
Before casting stones of aspersion, the Bible thumpers of Georgia would do well to consider the ole saw “God Helps those who help themselves”…without that firm grounding in the “three ars”, the future of America can rest assured that there will always be an ample source of labor for Wal Mart.
Honor The Lord, by all means, but keep it in perspective. If my engine starts sputtering on long final, the very last thing I will do is break out the ole Bible. I will, instead, exercise every skill my experience, and The Lord, has provided. Being a good Christian, therefore, in my view, is demonstrated through actions and not words alone. that 12-year pipeline is short enough…let’s use it wisely. AMEN!
Norm
November 30th, 2009
11:58 am
Your comment on the Tripoli treaty is only half the story. It is a good example of America kowtowing to Muslims for the first time. The words were added to avoid the presumption of a crusade as the Tripoli pirates were Muslim.
As far as handing out Bibles at high schools. Who really cares? It’s up to the student to accept or deny it. What if the Bibles were handed out across the street…would that be enough of a buffer for you to be a “separation”…how about 100 yards in either direction?
It isn’t like the principal is out there handing them to kids. Stop persecuting Christians for what they believe in, it isn’t harming anyone.
V for Vendetta
November 30th, 2009
12:17 pm
Actually, Norm, like all religions, it harms quite a few people–directly and indirectly.
John K
November 30th, 2009
12:19 pm
Persecuting the Christians for what they believe in? You surely must be joking. Why are there some Christians who seem to believe their faith trumps everything? So now since they are not to pass out their Bibles on school property, they are being persecuted? That is the most pansy definition of persecution I’ve ever heard.
E
November 30th, 2009
2:39 pm
I am not surprised these people find some need to target children instead of handing out material to their parents. When you pass them by, they often drop a bible in your pack, if it’s open, even after you say no. It’s a captive audience, and the targeting practice is unethical, unprofessional, and certainly treads on the establishment of religions. Our schools regularly denied other groups equivalent access. I don’t see how anyone can view this as neutral – it would require a willing blindness because the particular religion appeals to them.
j
November 30th, 2009
3:22 pm
According to “Religion In the Public Schools: A Joint Statement Of Current Laws” signed by Muslims, Jewish groups, many Christian denominations and more (including the ACLU) statement number 1 is “Students have the right to pray individually or in groups or to discuss their religious views with their peers so long as they are not disruptive.” There’s more, but I’ll let you Google it. So, yes, there is still prayer in schools. Just not school-mandated prayer.
Statement 9: Students have the right to distribute religious literature to their schoolmates, subject to those reasonable time, place, and manner or other constitutionally-acceptable restrictions…”
Statement 10: “Outsiders may not be given access to the classroom to distribute religious or anti-religious literature. No court has yet considered whether, if all other community groups are permitted to distribute literature in common areas of public schools, religious groups must be allowed to do so on equal terms subject to reasonable time, place and manner restrictions.”
Check it out. All sides will have something to learn by reading this. The separation between church and state is to protect religious belief from state intrusion and vice-versa, something all reasonable people of all points of view should want to respect and encourage.
Thanks for the post!
live.love.eat.
November 30th, 2009
4:43 pm
Go ahead people and hand out bibles. Just don’t be offended when I start handing out other religion’s holy texts to your children.
Georgia Teacher
November 30th, 2009
7:54 pm
Folks,
As a Christian who has significant problems with organized religion, not my faith, but the churches that pretend to be the authority on faith, I have some advice: if you want to attract followers, be more passive.
Instead of handing out books, set up a booth allowing people to come to you.
Instead of preaching to people, instead lead, quietly, by example.
Instead of condemning those who do not follow your faith to Hell, just be a good friend and allow them to make up their own minds.
When someone asks, enlighten them of your views, but do not press them.
In short, be a good person, be a good friend. Let your actions speak for you and your quiet, boundless faith will draw others.
If you do that, there is no need to distribute Bibles or any other religious text in school… the students who desire your faith will come to you.
Barry
November 30th, 2009
10:58 pm
Maureene,
When you write an article that bases your premise on certain historical facts, you should make sure your facts are accurate. The motto’s and slogans that you cited did not originate during the anti-communist era of the 50’s. Our national motto “In God We Trust” originated in the 1600’s with the Pilgrams. They engraved on the bulkhead of the Mayflower “God be with us, In God is our trust.” While it was in the 50’s that our national motto was imprinted on our paper money, but you conveniently left out the fact that it first appeared on our coinage in the mid 1800’s under the Lincoln administration. I also see that you have left out the numerous references to our country being a Christian nation by the majority of our founding fathers, but those facts would not have supported your liberal bias.
John K
December 1st, 2009
8:57 am
Seriously, what is wrong with Churches and parents not giving their children Bibles if they want the children to have them? Are we attempting to have some sort of Christian Nanny State?
If you want your child to have a Bible, then get one for them. Don’t wait for some group to pick up your slack.
I wonder what the reaction would be if it were a Koran or Book of Mormon?
jim d
December 1st, 2009
1:09 pm
The solution, my friends, is a simple one.
Schools of CHOICE. Then each school could hand out and teach whatever they could and maintain a student base.
Magenta
December 2nd, 2009
1:46 pm
Tennessee is worse than Georgia. There are more rural communities; many areas are isolated due to mountains and lack of interstates. It is not near a major media center such as Atlanta. My son was in an urban public high school a few years back. His Spanish teacher taught the class by bringing in tapes of sermons given at her church. No, they were NOT in Spanish. There were frequent assemblies led by local pastors. The rationale given to me off the record was that most of the students were poor minorities who “need religion to keep them in line.” IMO, what they need is education, since there are full-time cops at that school with frequent gang incidents, tazing and lockdowns. Churches don’t teach math & science, so why should schools think it’s okay to teach religion? My son went to live up north after one year.