Handing out Bibles at a high school: Why do we keep doing this in Georgia?
Too many public schools continue to blur the church-state divide in Georgia
The zest with which Georgia schools test the church-state divide never fails to stun me.
I wonder if other states grapple with this issue or is this unique to the Bible Belt?
With the threat of litigation, public schools ought to think very carefully about allowing any religious group access to students and the possible charge of proselytizing on school grounds.
Yet, a north Georgia parent sent me a note that Bibles were handed out at her high school last week. She is a Christian and reveres the Bible, but doesn’t think the high school was the right place to hand it out.
Her concern mirrors my own: Our schools are attended by students of all faiths and traditions. All those faiths and belief deserve respect. We risk making many students feel like outsiders when we elevate one religion above all others.
Consider the 1656 warning by devout Baptist Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island, on the consequences of mixing religion and government: “God requireth not an uniformity of religion to be enacted and enforced in any civil state; which enforced uniformity, sooner or later, is the greatest occasion of civil war, ravishing of conscience, persecution of Christ Jesus in his servants and of the hypocrisy and destruction of millions of souls.”
More than a century later, Thomas Jefferson allayed the fears of the Baptist Association that the newly birthed United States of America was planning to designate a national religion. Responding to the worried Baptists, Jefferson wrote, “The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State.”
Many of you will argue that America was created as a Christian nation. But the 1797 treaty between the United States and Tripoli, written under President George Washington and signed by his successor, John Adams, says that “the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
But what about the phrase “one nation under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance and “In God We Trust” on our currency? Both grew out of the anti-Communist fervor of the McCarthy era.
In 1954, politicians tacked “under God” onto the pledge; three years later, they engraved “In God We Trust” onto paper money. Concerns were raised even then about blurring the line between church and state, but no lawmakers wanted to risk casting a vote against God.
James Madison believed that the only way to preserve both religion and government is to maintain a safe distance between them. “The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatever, ” wrote Madison, “beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against the trespasses on its legal rights by others.”
Madison got it right. Too many of our schools are getting it wrong.
Why?
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183 comments Add your comment
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
10:05 pm
This issue is NOT about having God in our lives! What bogus crap! This is about forcing YOUR version of God at children. Stick with adults and your own children…that should keep you busy enough. Share your beliefs with people who are old enough to make choices and tell you to go away if they choose. As a Christian, I am absolutely horrified at this bold, driven, insistence on going after children. This isn’t about offering a gift…this is about forcing YOUR chosen agenda on someone else’s kids!
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
10:13 pm
Here’s the big deal. Religion wields great power, especially here in the South. The people so intent on passing out Bibles in public schools are the same people powerful enough to coerce the school administrators to block the children from hearing the President talk to them about staying in school and working hard. These people would have you leave the country if you do not practice the same faith, in the same way as they do! It is no joke. There is no listening to reason, no acceptance of another’s right to worship as he/she sees fit. As a Christian and an American, I say this is frightening and we’d better pay attention here. Freedom from religious tyranny has been won, but it can be lost.
Rational Universalist
November 27th, 2009
10:19 pm
“Do you have God in your life? If not you may burn in hell”
The fact that you worship a version of God that would condemn you to a never-ending eternity of agonizing suffering for failing to properly worship him says a great deal about you and anyone like you. You can take your version of God and shove it. I prefer a more rational Deity, thanks. Your “God” is representative of the thought and moral processes of a five-year-old, cowering in the dark and praying for someone to protect him…grow up and embrace an idea of Deity that requires you to be a fully-functioning human being rather than a cowardly automaton.
Donnie
November 27th, 2009
10:25 pm
Muslim heaven….now that’s heaven. 40 virgins.
What’s Christian heaven got on that? Donte saw a parade everyday in the Paradiso. I don’t even like the one annually on Thanksgiving.
mmm, mmm, mmm Barack the LIAR Obama
November 27th, 2009
10:29 pm
If you don’t want one, don’t take it. How difficult is that?
Philosopher
November 27th, 2009
10:33 pm
mmm.mmm.mmm- Don’t break the law, don’t pass out Bibles at school…how difficult is THAT?!
Ken
November 27th, 2009
10:35 pm
I believe a moment of silence would suffice in a government run school. It is healthy to close your eyes and pay respect for your existence before you begin your educational process. If you choose not to pray, you can take a 1 minute nap. Naps are healthy as well. No one should be intimidated by someone in silent prayer.
V for Vendetta
November 27th, 2009
10:36 pm
JTex,
Can we be friends?
As one of the (admittedly, very few) resident atheists on this blog, I am shocked, though not at all surprised, by the outpouring of vitriolic, self-righteous tirades from all the “Christians.” Surely your ire makes a better case against god than for him. As someone earlier mentioned, I would love to see the indignant responses sparked by someone passing out Korans at a metro high school. I would find the responses very interesting.
I’m not going to get into a debate with any of the true believers out there, but I’ll leave it at this: No matter how much you want to interpret things through your narrowly focused christian viewpoint, there is, should, and always will be a separation between church and state in this country. It is essential for our survival as a nation, and it has been encroached upon far too much already. (There were a few people who mentioned that we don’t have enough church in our state. I would kindly ask that they relocate to Iran to see how the whole theocracy thing is working out.)
I’m offended enough by all the god talk in my daily life, and I sure as heck would be pissed if someone tried to force a Bible into one of my children’s hands. Maybe I’ll respond in kind. Perhaps I’ll purchase a number of books and hand them out at schools around Atlanta–free of charge, of course. You might even want to read them:
God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins
Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris
Great reading material for all young, open-minded skeptics. How would that float your boat?
mmm, mmm, mmm Barack the LIAR Obama
November 27th, 2009
10:37 pm
There is NO law about handing the Bible out at school, maybe you should have paid more attention while you were there, Dufus.
mmm, mmm, mmm Barack the LIAR Obama
November 27th, 2009
10:39 pm
V, here’s one YOU should read….”It’s hot in hell” by deathbed conversions.
V for Vendetta
November 27th, 2009
10:42 pm
I don’t believe in hell. What a horrible (and most obviously human) concept that is. An all-powerful, though frightfully petulant, creator condemns people to an eternity of torment simply for not agreeing with him. And people claim that the Bible teaches morals?
mmm, mmm, mmm Barack the LIAR Obama
November 27th, 2009
10:44 pm
V, “I don’t believe”, is your problem, trust me you will.
jarvis
November 27th, 2009
10:45 pm
Proclaimed Atheists are ridiculous. It’s one thing not to believe in anything. It’s another to go about bragging about your belief in not believing in anything.
Oh look at the smart Atheist….he’s so clever. The way he’s figured out that every thing was caused by nothing. If you tell him your beliefs, he’ll tell you why you’re wrong. That’s how smart he is.
Oh, and he’s offended by your belief that he’s going to hell…even though he doesn’t believe in it.
Atheists are like the gifted kids in school that thought it was necessary to show everyone how smart the were. The better-adjusted gifted kids just roll their eyes.
irisheyes
November 27th, 2009
10:45 pm
There are too many unanswered questions here for me to make an informed opinion. Who was the group handing out the Bibles? Were they on school property or off? Were they physically handing the Bibles to students, or did they just have a bunch and people could come over to get one? The story seems a little thin on facts and just full of opinions.
BTW, I have no problem with groups coming in to pass out Bibles or the Quaran, or even the Commumnist Manifesto. Let the kids take them, read them, and become well rounded. I know that’s what the classes are for, but let’s be honest. Not enough of the classics are read in high school. I know there’s lots of books I wish I’d read. I’d love to now, but the mindless paperwork of teaching calls!
V for Vendetta
November 27th, 2009
10:50 pm
I’ll take my chances. Thanks, though.
Tim J.
November 27th, 2009
10:51 pm
Here is information that is not commonly known….Emjoy:)
Prayer in Public School – Overview of Governing Constitutional Principles
The history of prayer in public school is a story of legal interpretation. The relationship between religion and government in the United States is governed by the First Amendment to the Constitution, which both prevents the government from establishing religion and protects privately initiated religious expression and activities from government interference and discrimination. The First Amendment thus establishes certain limits on the conduct of public school officials as it relates to religious activity, including prayer.
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer. Good News Club v. Milford Cent. Sch., 533 U.S. 98 (2001); Everson v. Board of Educ., 330 U.S. 1 (1947). Accordingly, the First Amendment forbids religious activity that is sponsored by the government but protects religious activity that is initiated by private individuals, and the line between government-sponsored and privately initiated religious expression is vital to a proper understanding of the First Amendment’s scope. As the Court has explained in several cases, “there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect.” Santa Fe Indep. Sch. Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290, 302 (2000).
Prayer in Public School – Drawing the Line of Permissible Expression
The Supreme Court’s decisions over the past forty years set forth principles that distinguish impermissible governmental religious speech from the constitutionally protected private religious speech of students. For example, teachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the Bible, or other religious activities. Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962); School Dist. of Abington Twp. v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963). Nor may school officials attempt to persuade or compel students to participate in prayer or other religious activities. Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 599 (1992). Such conduct is “attributable to the State” and thus violates the Establishment Clause. Weisman, 505 U.S. at 587.
Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.” Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969). In addition, the Supreme Court has made clear that “private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression.” Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995). Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302. For example, “nothing in the Constitution … prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day,” and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.
Prayer in Public School – Our Country’s Legacy
It wasn’t until the early 1960’s that prayer in public school was “outlawed” by a new interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. In fact, the history of the U.S. includes prayer and Bible readings in all sorts of public places, including schools. In 1782, the United States Congress passed the following resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”
William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in U.S. public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the “Schoolmaster of the Nation.” McGuffey declared: “The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology.”
Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, (John 17:3); and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let every one seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3).”
Tim J.
November 27th, 2009
10:58 pm
Here is information that is not commonly known….Emjoy:)
Prayer in Public School – Overview of Governing Constitutional Principles
The history of prayer in public school is a story of legal interpretation. The relationship between religion and government in the United States is governed by the First Amendment to the Constitution, which both prevents the government from establishing religion and protects privately initiated religious expression and activities from government interference and discrimination. The First Amendment thus establishes certain limits on the conduct of public school officials as it relates to religious activity, including prayer.
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer. Good News Club v. Milford Cent. Sch., 533 U.S. 98 (2001); Everson v. Board of Educ., 330 U.S. 1 (1947). Accordingly, the First Amendment forbids religious activity that is sponsored by the government but protects religious activity that is initiated by private individuals, and the line between government-sponsored and privately initiated religious expression is vital to a proper understanding of the First Amendment’s scope. As the Court has explained in several cases, “there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect.” Santa Fe Indep. Sch. Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290, 302 (2000).
Prayer in Public School – Drawing the Line of Permissible Expression
The Supreme Court’s decisions over the past forty years set forth principles that distinguish impermissible governmental religious speech from the constitutionally protected private religious speech of students. For example, teachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the Bible, or other religious activities. Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962); School Dist. of Abington Twp. v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963). Nor may school officials attempt to persuade or compel students to participate in prayer or other religious activities. Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 599 (1992). Such conduct is “attributable to the State” and thus violates the Establishment Clause. Weisman, 505 U.S. at 587.
Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.” Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969). In addition, the Supreme Court has made clear that “private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression.” Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995). Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302. For example, “nothing in the Constitution … prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day,” and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.
Prayer in Public School – Our Country’s Legacy
It wasn’t until the early 1960’s that prayer in public school was “outlawed” by a new interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. In fact, the history of the U.S. includes prayer and Bible readings in all sorts of public places, including schools. In 1782, the United States Congress passed the following resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”
William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in U.S. public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the “Schoolmaster of the Nation.” McGuffey declared: “The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology.”
Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, (John 17:3); and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let every one seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3).”
commonly known….Enjoy:)
Big L
November 27th, 2009
11:18 pm
Road to hell- long and wide. Road to heaven- short and narrow. Modern times give me a new perspective on this everyday. What we want is more important than anythimg else. This has become a nation of filth and decay. This country has turned from god and in the same respect , he has remived his protection from it. Corrupt government, systematic removal of christianity from a childs every day life. I pray for my planet and country.
Atl Resident
November 27th, 2009
11:19 pm
It’s only sad that people are really naive about the truth. We keep ignoring the signs but judgment and the truth is on the way soon. These issues as well as the floods are just examples. We are and going to continue to see and learn the hard way. Everything was already perfect but “people” are the ones who have jacked the world up.
This blog is entertaining!
November 27th, 2009
11:25 pm
Wow – what a blog thread! This comment is my favorite – “Randy Cooper
November 27th, 2009 7:11 “Maybe if we handed out more Bibles, we’d hand out less condoms…. If you don’t like the way we do it here, Delta is ready when you are.”
That’s so funny – since I swear – everyone in the Bible is sleeping with someone/everyone/their brother or his goat.
ScienceTeacher671
November 27th, 2009
11:43 pm
I wonder what would happen if other, non-Christian, religious groups also took advantage of the opportunity to pass out their holy books at the same school? If the school allows Christian groups to do this, it would have to offer the same opportunity to other groups, would it not?
fred
November 28th, 2009
1:03 am
Wow, Georgia ranks last or dang close to it in education and YOU Maureen are worried about a damn bible? DO you ALWAYS write against Christianity in your SCHOOL blog or do I just seem to get “lucky” when I stumble upon it? Did you speak out about Muslim day in Gwinnett County where the Muslims come in to ‘educate” us poor hicks on the beauty of THEIR religion as well? Not that I really care.
I have an idea, practice what you preach (yuck yuck, get the pun?). Keeping YOUR religious beliefs out of a SCHOOL BLOG would set a wonderful example. How about focusing on some things that would actually help schools to better educate their students? I mean really, passing out bibles in schools where probably over 50% of the students can’t read can’t be THAT big of a problem……….
Heck on that note I reckon I’ve convinced myself that I am now in favor of them passing out Boble, or Torahs, or Korans in school if it induces the kids to educate themselves enough to read and understand the damn things lol.
What a joke. I read the titles included in your “recent posts” and I see two on fat porky pigs, two on a calender, one each on “Jaysus”, a dog whisperer, selling lessons plans, taking time OFF from schools for (gosh sakes sake), and the good old paddling debate. Do you ever write about the thing that is actually SUPPOSED to happen at school in the process of getting schooled? You know that waskly little thing called learning, or god forbid actually passing some tests and useless junk like that?
No wonder I send my kid to a private school, they actually focus on EDUCATION there, not on who is passing out a damn bible or who is fatter than who, (whom fatter than whom? hmmmmmm…. I’m sure someone will correct my grammar, although she hit the last person that tried to correct her, the feisty old bat). Come on I know you can fire the natives up and stir a useless whizzing contest with your hatred of Christianity but aren’t you SUPPOSED to be writing about school not God?
fred
November 28th, 2009
1:07 am
Edit on above post for clarity: First paragraph, last sentence. “Not that I really care” is open to interpretation of what I lack concern about. I lack concern about discussions on someone “educating” others on their religion, not that I don’t care about the peaceful followers of that peaceful religion of Islam. I actually think that all students should take a course called “religion” where ALL religions are presented in a “here is what folks following this religion believe” manner for educational purposes. Too many folks have no knowledge of ‘that other religion” they spend so much time putting down lol.
TheWay
November 28th, 2009
1:47 am
Just wow. The people who don’t want the Bibles handed out in schools have some very hateful things to say. There is a lot of judgement of others based on their beliefs, and mockery of Christians. I understand where people acting as Christians have driven away the very people they are supposed to be loving and saving, but I would have thought the people who don’t want Bibles handed out would be open-minded and thoughtful, rather than emotional and spiteful. Hand out the Bible, the Quran, the Torah . . . there is something to be learned from it all. Why all the fear? I happen to believe the Bible will teach you to love others as yourselves, and that Jesus died on the cross to forgive my sins. Yes, people who follow Jesus want to share the good news, but that doesn’t mean that you are being forced into religion. Those of you who quote the Old Testament to show a wrathful God happily forget the part where He gave His grace. So, whether you believe it or not, God loves you and wants a relationship with you. If you’ve read this, you have heard the news. If you choose not to believe it, then you are exercising the free will that God gave you. I hope someday you will change your mind. Whether you do or not, I respect your right to have an opinion, and to share it. I don’t believe you are forcing others to change their beliefs by saying what you believe, even if you believe nothing. If you choose to criticize or disagree with me, I respect that. If you hate me because of what I believe and have nasty horrible things to say, well, then I won’t hate you back. It’s hard to love people because we are human, but when you follow Jesus, you have to try. By the way – this country wasn’t founded on the principle of freedom FROM religion (ACLU) but the freedom of religion – where you can practice whatever you believe in a free manner. Does it sound like that’s where we are when we think that the Bible is an awful thing for a child to have? My children’s beliefs are rooted enough that I am not afraid of any people with other beliefs to talk to them, to interact with them, or to share their book of faith with them. I see a whole lot of fear on this blog (including by the original author) and not a lot of rational thought. So, again, wow. A Bible. Run and hide?
nemo
November 28th, 2009
6:07 am
I am 59 years old, when I was in the 3rd grade a local minister came to my class and handed out bibles. I chose the one with the zipper because I wanted to give it to my mother. She kept that bible and carried it to church with her for 40 years until she died. When we were going trough her things, I gave the bible to my daughter who carried the bible to church through her teens and now has a son and I’m sure he will carry the same bible when he gets older.
I guess what I am trying to say is leave it alone, if you don’t want a bible just don’t take it. This one made me proud when I gave it to my mom when I was 9.
nemo
November 28th, 2009
6:29 am
Godless people don’t believe in hell.
bronco
November 28th, 2009
6:33 am
When I was in the 3rd grade a man came to our class and gave out bibles. I chose the one with the zipper because I wanted to give it to my mother, she didn’t have one small enough to carry to church. I gave it to her and she carried it until she died. I gave it to my daughter and now she carries it. Wow whats wrong with that. What a great memory.
Mitch (the one in Rome)
November 28th, 2009
6:43 am
There are many layers to this issue as discussed on this blog regarding this article, but here are a few things to chew on.
1. The issue of church/state is not really understood, historically, by most. Separation of church/state is, at the heart, the belief that the church should not run the state and vice versa. Not that a person can’t practice their faith in public and at public places.
Muslims should be allowed to hand out Qurans if they want. Christians should be allowed to hand out Bibles. We are NOT an atheist society. This is not the former USSR in which all religion is viewed as the “opiate”. Put all religion in the public square and let reasonable people make their decisions. But do NOT begin to dissuade the establishment of religion and the free exercise thereof.
2. Georgia is NOT the only place this issue is dealt with. Are you serious? Have you never traveled outside of Georgia? I see this in many countries and many states in which I get to travel. Don’t show so much ignorance of the world around you dude.
3. Don’t make ignorant statements about Jesus saying that he would not condone handing out bibles. Have you read one lately from cover to cover? He was not crucified because he was “Mister Rogers”. He made some pretty exclusive statements that C.S. Lewis, the avowed agnostic, saw and thus he converted based on his conclusions.
4. Don’t make ignorant statements about Islam. Have you read the Quran lately? The fact is there is a mandate “dawa” to convert in Islam as well. We are a free country and should be allowed to put our exclusive beliefs on display, respect each other, talk about the differences, make our decisions and move on without the waste of journalism of such folly. This is called FREEDOM. Enjoy it or lose it.
5. Let go of the archaic and dying worldview that this should not be an issue. Dude, again, get out of Georgia and look around. Globalization is a reality and the world’s religions are at your front door. We must speak to each other, agree to disagree, do this with civility and honesty (not denying each’s exclusive truth claims), and allowing all to make their decisions as they desire. Even atheism. Although as a system of thought is dying for various reasons. Again, it’s called Freedom.
6. If we are going to have government schools, then they should not take the worldview of denying the existence of the various religions of the world by not allowing them to be exercised or debated at all. That is a blinders mentality that is ignoring reality and thus an opportunity to learn, but then again, the goal is not learning in government schools, it’s propagation of a government mentality and testing to get money. I don’t believe in government schools as it is, and this very article is why. They are blind and dumb regarding real learning and miss great opportunities like this to learn a global perspective and equip students to interact globally. Nowhere else in the world are kids so uni-cultural than in the USA. Nowhere else are kids so muted in discussion of and exposure to other beliefs and religions. It’s a shame. That is why I work my rear off to put my 3 sons in private school. I want them to learn, not be indoctrinated with an agnostic governmental approach to education.
Bottom line, it’s sad and ignorant.
william
November 28th, 2009
7:15 am
Why do we always get confused on this? Seperation of Church and state was designed to keep the state out of church affairs. That we would not have a state run church like we had in England. One of the the reasons we left. But,now that we are in such moral decay we twist it to fit our needs not as it was intended.
william
November 28th, 2009
7:34 am
“Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
Mike In Woodstock
November 28th, 2009
7:39 am
As a Christian, I do not want faith being taught in our schools simply because my kids teacher is more than likely a heathen who doesn’t worship the way I teach my kid to worship. On the other hand, the atheists don’t realize that you cannot legislate faith away, even in public schools…Don’t believe me? Go to a high school football game, you’ll see players kneel in prayer before the games. In rural areas, you’ll still see people in the stands praying. That’s not going to stop no matter what any judge rules.
catlady
November 28th, 2009
7:50 am
The Gideons gave them out, as they always do, to our fifth graders last week. These are the small New Testaments they probably gave out to fifth graders on Noah’s Ark (that’s a joke, people) I had no problem with it–although there was peer pressure to take one–but it led to teachers having to say, “Now put away your Bible and take out your science book.” That, in North Georgia, is kinda dicey.
Rex
November 28th, 2009
9:05 am
The explanation for the opinion piece is not difficult. Back in the cold war when it was the free world vs. the communists, both sides tried to implant spies and moles on each others soil. The communists probably did a better job of it than we did. They infiltrated the U.S. and did it mostly in fields where their prevailing view would last for generations. The fields of influence they managed to infiltrated most successfully were higher education, law and journalism. Thus, there is an anti-Christian view amongst the majority in the field of journalism.
Sarah
November 28th, 2009
9:09 am
I didn’t want to read through all the comments but you didn’t name the school where bibles were given out. I haven’t seen a bible being given out in our school system in over 20 years.
Cere
November 28th, 2009
9:16 am
I think teens should study the Bible, it’s highly educational and far more entertaining than television today. And, the stories themselves have a funny way of diluting the seriousness of these kinds of debates. Plus, at it’s core, the Bible explains many of the world’s conflicts – even today’s – as well as provides opportunity for some challenging math. I will share a sample lesson overview from a Bible study I once attended.
As far as our Bible Study today goes, we will leave behind the marked Cain in Genesis 4 (who exactly was he supposed to be afraid of out there?) and jump straight to Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 12. We skip Genesis chapter 5, which basically tell us about lots of incredibly old men who father sons and daughters when they are way past their prime (all without the benefit of Viagra, I might add). If my math is correct Genesis 5 spans nearly 1600 years and brings us to Noah, whom we all know built the ark (at the age of 500 plus). We also skip Genesis 6 through 9, which are all about that nasty flood, and Genesis 10, which is all about sons and tribes whose names I can’t pronounce. But I guess that’s an appropriate segue to Genesis 11, which is about the Tower of Babel and the Lord confusing the language of the entire world. When men can no longer understand one another, they go their separate ways. But the language barrier does not stop them all from continuing to father sons and daughters. They continue to multiply their way through Genesis 11 but they only live to be 200 to 400 years old instead of 800 to 900 years old as their predecessors did. (All that siring had to catch up to them sometime I guess.) Anyway, we finally get to Abram in Genesis 12, who was really a youngster compared to Noah. Abram (who later becomes Abraham) was only 75 years old when we meet him. And as far as I am concerned he wasn’t very nice to his wife.
Abraham’s wife, Sarah makes Hagar, her servant sleep with her husband, and when Hagar conceives, Sarah sends her off into the wilderness barefoot and pregnant. But God tells Hagar to go back. She does and delivers her baby boy – and Sarah sends them both packing again to the wilderness. Hagar perseveres through the tragedy of her life circumstances and God rewards her by making “a great nation {Islam] of” her son, Ishmael. In today’s world, all the great nations are already made. So those of us who suffer (and we all do) shouldn’t get any big ideas. But God hasn’t forgotten about us – that’s why he invented Prozac. And what happened to that nasty Sarah? She got to have a child when she was very, very old. She named him “Isaac”, which means “he laughs”, since she couldn’t stop laughing when she found out she was pregnant.
So you see, God does work in mysterious ways . . .
Leigh
November 28th, 2009
9:26 am
While at the gym last week, I saw a retired teacher. We sat and talked a few minutes. One of the topics of discussion, of course, was the state of our schools. She always began her day by having students read from the Bible, pray, and say the Pledge of Allegiance. She was not alone. Every teacher did that. When I see these teachers now, God bless them, I still answer with ‘Yes Ma’am’ and ‘No Ma’am’. I’m thankful I had teachers like them. It’s a shame that we’ve gotten away from it. You need only to look at today’s society to see what happens when values are thrown by the wayside. ‘Tis sad.
Echo
November 28th, 2009
9:56 am
Funny how people equate “today’s problems” & “moral decay” with taking “god out of schools”. All the problems we have today existed before, always have. You just didn’t hear about them because we have so much access to information today.
For those that keep arguing that handing out bibles at a public school is not specifically prohibited by the 1st amendment, you probably should read the supreme court’s rulings on some 1st amendment cases (ie: posting 10 commandments in coutrooms and pubic buildings). The 1st amendment is widely interpreted to prohibit any religious references/affiliations within or by government entities. “Freedom of religion” cuts both ways, you don’t get to interfer with other’s rights to not worship. When was the last time atheists handed out anything at a school or knocked on your door to get you to get jesus out of your life?
dbow
November 28th, 2009
10:33 am
It’s very easy for the people in the majority to say just say no to the bible, but were talking about kids here. Kids don’t want to look like the outcasts or be the different kid. You can’t expect a kid to reason like an adult. If in fact these bibles were handed out by school employees then clearly the law has been broken. If the bibles were handed out by a religious group on school property during school hours, then again the law has been broken. The law is very clear here. No preaching during school hours on school grounds. Before and after school religious groups are given wide latitude, but that’s it. It’s purely voluntary and even then, they can’t actively recruit during school hours either. The majority always thinks it’s easy to just say no when it’s their agenda that’s in question. It isn’t that easy.
mambo
November 28th, 2009
12:00 pm
I doubt that the lady Maureen Downey refers to is either a Christian or a “reverer” of the Bible. If she was, she would have no problem with evangelism or with the passing out of Bibles at a public high school regardless of the threat of litigation from the ACLU.
And, Madison did get it right, but Ms. Downey’s unenlightened misunderstanding of his comments fail to show an understanding that government and religion are to leave each other alone to freely exercise.
RJ
November 28th, 2009
12:21 pm
Although I’m a Christian, I disagree with Bibles being passed out to students. If we allow bibles to be given to students, then other religious organizations should be allowed to do the same. A public school is not the place. Parents have the right to send their kids to any religious school they choose.
One of the problems I see is how religion is handled in the public school. We are in the Winter Holiday season. Some public schools will have Christmas trees, Santa Claus and sing Deck the Halls. The reality is that we live in a pre-dominantly Christian society and the practices of Christianity will always be a part of public school.
Philosopher
November 28th, 2009
12:59 pm
@Big L. What a sad and bitter attitude. If you raise a child in Christ, he/she won’t be ruined in 6 hours of public school. No one is removing Christianity from a child’s life. Do you not manage to remain a Christian during your 8 hour work day? Those of us who are Christians teach our kids outside of school. We already have Bibles. The real agenda here is not protecting Christians, or Chrisitanity…I do believe He is quite capable of managing that… it’s about recruiting the young and impressionable. I do not WANT just anyone teaching my children about Christ and I certainly wouldn’t have public school teachers do it…or some rightwing conservative.
Jerry
November 28th, 2009
1:05 pm
Prayer should be put back into Schools.
Philosopher
November 28th, 2009
1:05 pm
mambo- your comments are very interesting. First, you don’t even hesitate to judge someone as a Chrisitan based on Your interpretation of how one should behave or think…Thank you for supporting my point so well…Your idea of a good Christian and mine are world’s apart…stay away from my Christian children.
Best of all- “Ms. Downey’s unenlightened misunderstanding of his comments fail to show an understanding that government and religion are to leave each other alone to freely exercise.” I absolutely agree- you stay away from the government(public school) and the government will stay away from your religious world… and all will be well
And MY point
Jerry
November 28th, 2009
1:06 pm
Enter your comments here
Philosopher
November 28th, 2009
1:52 pm
@Big L. What a sad and bitter attitude. If you raise a child in Christ, he/she won’t be ruined in 6 hours of public school.. No one is removing Christianity from a child’s life. Those of us who are Christians teach our kids outside of school and in church. We already have Bibles. The real agenda here is not protecting Christians, it’s about recruiting and making more of the kind you believe in. I do not WANT just anyone teaching my children about Christ and I certainly wouldn’t have public school teachers do it…or some rightwing conservative.
V for Vendetta
November 28th, 2009
3:58 pm
Mitch,
“Even atheism. Although, as a system of thought, it is dying for various reasons.”
As a proud and happy atheist, I’d love to know what those reasons are.
Simon T.
November 28th, 2009
4:33 pm
The writer of this article got it wrong because the U.S. was founded on Judaeo Christian principles. Proof: Our oldest federal buildings are in fact covered with biblical references.
In the past 50 years we have gotten away from our founding principles in the school system. Schools that ban God are breeding grounds for gangs, preteen pregancies and horrific violence. We never had tragedies like Columbine before this era. Perhaps handing out free Bibles might be better than handing out condoms.
Simon T.
November 28th, 2009
4:39 pm
V for Vendetta, one of the recommended books on your list is “The God Delusion.” I prayed for a coworker that had an inoperable brain tumor and they got healed. If you’re in an impossible situation you are deluded not to go to the only one who can do the impossible.
MsCrabtree
November 28th, 2009
5:21 pm
The more our country distances itself from religion, the worse off we will be. It is also very obvious that there are many anti-Christians out there. That’s right, give out condoms in school, teach about birth control and abortion, but not the Bible which is the textbook for morality. Even in the new disaster movie, 2012, Christian edifices take a hit but not any other religions. Hmmm.
Maureen Downey
November 28th, 2009
8:05 pm
Fred. Your comment prompted me to do a quick review. Out of the 461 postings I have written since I took over this blog in early August, I have written 14 dealing with religion in school. If my math is correct, that is around 3 percent. I think you are just lucky.
Maureen