WTOC reports: Parent says school took paddling too far
My e-mail this morning has several tips from Get Schooled readers, including this referral to a story by WTOCTV.com in Savannah about a paddling incident in an Appling County middle school.
According to the WTOC 11 story:
BAXLEY, GA (WTOC) – Should educators be allowed to spank a child who misbehaves? It’s a subject that’s been debated for years.
In the State of Georgia, paddling students is legal, but the implementation of a spanking policy is left up to each school district. But one Baxley parent says her son’s school took it too far.
“I haven’t seen any write-ups or warnings. It just says, ‘classroom disturbance, throwing objects in class’ and he received two licks,” said mom Carletta Crummey.
She says the note was sent home Thursday about her 13-year-old son Cody and that, “two licks” means being hit twice with a paddle.
“He said, ‘I need to call home’ and they refused to let him call home and they paddled him,” said Crummey.
Crummey says Appling County Middle School teachers should have let her know first before they made the decision to hit her child.
“We don’t believe in paddling our child,” she said. “I don’t think what he did was right. I want them to punish him, but not hurt him where he is afraid to go back to school. You know if I put bruises on him, I would be in trouble. I don’t think a stranger should be allowed to put bruises on a child.”
Crummey says she doesn’t understand why some school districts allow this to happen.
“Suspend him, send him home, let me take care of the problem.
We have talked about this issue here many times, and I remain steadfast in my belief that schools should not physically discipline kids. I agree with the parent. Suspend the student. Call the parents. Send him home. But don’t hit him.
(And for those of you who are going to say that if this mother paddled her son more, he wouldn’t throw thing in class, there is no evidence that kids raised on corporal punishment are better behaved as a result.)
Have a good Saturday.
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144 comments Add your comment
Concerned parent.
November 21st, 2009
5:13 pm
Sorry- Michael Goldfied-forgive me !
Concerned parent.
November 21st, 2009
5:15 pm
Ah, heck- Goldfield I don’t type well when mad.
Science Guy
November 21st, 2009
5:28 pm
@concerned parent…
If your child would never do anything deserving punishment, I believe you. The vast majority of my students fall into that category as well. Unfortunately, a few of the 120 or so I teach every day aren’t quite so wonderful. You might find it interesting to know that I’ve never known of a student who was afraid of me. I’m probably among the most well-liked teachers on my campus (not that I really care if they like me or not). My job is to teach, and on the rare occasion when a student refuses all my efforts to do that, paddling is an option I have available if needed. Again, I use it sparingly and only then with kids that I’ve determined are likely to respond to it with the desired outcome of correcting their inappropriate behavior.
You are welcome to visit my classroom to confirm that I’m no barbarian. You might also learn from your visit that middle school students today are a far cry from those you’ve seen on “Leave it to Beaver”. Eddie Haskell was a nice kid by comparison.
Tonya
November 21st, 2009
5:40 pm
Oldtimer:
I’m 28, and that was used as my punishment in middle school when I cursed in the presence of a teacher. These parents now would have a FIT if poor Johnny were made to do manual labor. Taught me a lesson about right and wrong that I remember to this day.My parents still whooped my behind when I got home though because I knew better. NEVER DID IT AGAIN.
Philosopher
November 21st, 2009
6:22 pm
Paddling shouldn’t even be an option at all… so here’s what I want to know- Why are we even having THIS discussion, anyway? I raised 3 kids- they were not discipline problems-never even visited principlal at all. BUT..these are my kids and my responsibility. Aren’t all parents responsible for their kids? So, if I am responsible for my kids and they can’t behave in school, then I expect to be called to remove the kid from the school. Why should teachers and other students be disrupted by my kid’s unacceptable behavior? Why am I not accountable for teaching my kid how to behave in school and then be responsible for alternative education if they can’t behave? MY kids, MY problem…period! Don’t hit my kid…but if he is acting up, won’t follow the rules, disrupts the class ,etc., I should have the responsiblity for correcting the problem or removing my kid, shouldn’t I?
Terry
November 21st, 2009
6:35 pm
@science guy – if you are resorting to the paddling AT ALL, you are not effectively implementing PBIS. Do you know how many lawsuits are filed on districts for this? Previous news stories on Mississippi should enlighten you. Maybe educators need to sign an oath similar to nurses and doctors ‘to do no harm’. I think it’s high time they do. I feel bad if any of your students may have an undetected medical or mental disorder, then what? Where on God’s Green Earth did you learn about paddling – I am almost positive that nobody is training you on how not to injure – but maybe I am in the dark on that one.
Terry
November 21st, 2009
6:59 pm
Don’t answer that question on where you learned about it, I’m afraid of what the answer will be. Bottom line is NO EDUCATOR learns this behavior management technique from anywhere except perhaps ‘tradition’. It doesn’t work. Never has, never will and in 2009 it’s innapropriate.
majii
November 21st, 2009
7:54 pm
In the last school system where I worked before retiring, the schools sent a notice of options to the parents to select the type of discipline they wanted used for their child: in school suspension, out of school suspension, work study, or a paddling.
Joy in Teaching
November 21st, 2009
7:54 pm
When I was in the 4th grade, I copied spelling words on my desk. My teacher caught me, pulled me out into what we called “The Hot Room” and gave me two swats with the paddle. She didn’t hit me hard and it didn’t even physically hurt. The embarrassment hurt much worse. I never cheated on a test, or even homework, again.
Wouldn’t you say that that paddling worked, Terry?
Bruce
November 21st, 2009
8:04 pm
Growing up, my four sisters and I always had a two-for-one deal … paddling at school always got a paddling at home, too. We all turned out pretty well if I may say so myself, a school teacher, a registered nurse, and three hard-working white collar ladies. Our parents would have never questioned the teacher or administrators. But, that’s the kind of parents with whom schools now have to deal. A sorry state our state and country have gotten in. Most parents do discipline in their own way, but our public schools have plenty of parents who don’t and the school systems and their classmates suffer. Many minutes (and often hours) are wasted on classroom discipline. Private schools can just kick the offenders out. Too bad public schools don’t have that option, other than maybe an alternative setting. They have to take them no matter how awful the behavior and how unmotivated to care about school.
Terry
November 21st, 2009
8:14 pm
@joy ummmmmm – perhaps you turned ok IN SPITE of that type of discipline. Read the studies folks – there are plenty of them. Chances are more likely than not kids are not positively effected by physical discipline. Some kids – not all – at least to every study I have read, go on to develop more aggression, school phobia, drug and alcohol problems – especially if the physical discipline goes on into later years.
@ Bruce – that’s why school systems have support staff – to do appropriate assessments and implement behavior plans that work.
Terry
November 21st, 2009
8:18 pm
oh and joy– I’m left handed. Getting the ruler on my left hand 40 years ago did not change my left handedness either.
Philosopher
November 21st, 2009
10:10 pm
Joy in Teaching..The point is…there were innumerable OTHER ways besides hitting you that would have taught you the same lesson. Once again, if kids CAN be taught without hitting…it is not necessary. I don’t even have to hit my pets to train them, why shouldn’t my child be given more consideration. I was spanked on a regular basis- can’t remember in one single incident what it was for. But, by golly, the 2 times I expected a spanking and it didn’t happen, I remember as clearly as if it were yesterday. Spanking is easy, quite satisfying to the hitter, lazy, unimaginative and simply wrong. Let’s don’t argue that paddling is what is needed, let’s change the status quo, outlaw corporal punishment, teach our kids how to behave appropriately, make an effort to learn creative, (not permissive) means of humane discipline and change the laws to make parents responsible for their kids. Give kids who chronically disrupt and disobey back to their parents to deal with!.
Kathy
November 21st, 2009
10:29 pm
I am curious how many of you, particularly educators, have read HB 605, the student disciplinary ACT of 1999, and, how many of have gone before your child’s school council to discuss why paddling works, or why it should be banned at your school if you are against the idea?
If spanking was an equal opportunity discipline measure that would be one thing, but according to recent data, children who are spanked more oftern then their peers are minoirties/blacks, and disabled kids. Could it be that spanking is tolerated and encouraged because it may inadvertently weed out the PERCEIVED WEAK in our society…after all, these are the same populations/disaggregate groups that drop out in Georgia and/or more likely to fail the high stakes tests? Perhaps remembering that we only began “deinstitutionalizing disabled persons/kids in 1963″ and in the South we only began providing equal education opportunites for blacks since the ESEA of 1964. I would also like to point out that white children, have been educated for over 200 years in our great country. Could it be that the almost 150 year head start for white “normal” children is actually why we have such an achievement gap at all?
I hope you don’t jump to conclusion about this being a racial thing, I think it is all about “survival of the fittest” and those in charge making decisions determine who is FIT.
I would also like to share….I agree parents should be made to spend time at the school when their child acts up and perhaps if folks look at HB 605 you will see there are disciplinary measures an educator can take other than spanking. Unfortunately, with 2014 approaching when 100% of the students, (exception being those taking the Georgia Alternative assesment) we are going to see more and more frustration amongst all school personnel. Parents are GOING to be null and void even more as school systems scramble to “make the AYP numbers work” for them. Regardless the outcomes, schools will always take credit for success, and parents will always be the scapegoat for the school system’s failures.
Competitive
November 22nd, 2009
12:14 am
Let’s clarify the issue. Many people don’t want schools to paddle, isolate students, yell at students, allow misbehavior to have any impact on a student’s grades or ability to participate in school activities, assign silent lunch, require students to do any types of custodial work or community service acts, give detentions, assign Saturday School, place students in ISS, place students on OSS, or expel students.
Every one of these forms of punishment is currently criticized by a large number of people.
As a teacher, the question is very simple. HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DISCIPLINE STUDENTS WHO MISBEHAVE? All of our options are being taken away. What is going to happen when there are no more punishments allowed for misbehaving students.
Each of the above punishments is a legitimate response to certain types of behaviors and for certain types of kids. We need MORE OPTIONS for punishing students, not fewer.
Isn’t it amazing that as corporal punishment has decreased in schools, student behavior has gotten worse? Suspension rates are up, teachers are leaving in droves due to poor student behavior, and acts of unspeakable violence are more common than ever. For those who claim that there is no evidence that corporal punishment is effective, I challenge you to show me the evidence that shows the increased effectiveness of any other punishment when compared to corporal punishment.
Competitive
November 22nd, 2009
12:18 am
I forgot, you can’t make students write as a punishment either. Some people actually think copying “I will not talk during class.” 100 times or writing an essay as a punishment will make students hate to write!
wondering
November 22nd, 2009
12:41 am
They sure do arrest parents – here is case:sqaj@nyms.net
http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/69972307.html
But they don’t arrest educators because of the immunity they have. It’s almost as if educators know they have immunity too…
Why don’t school systems try saturday school – you put one kid to school on a saturday, i betcha he or she would never be in trouble again.
wondering
November 22nd, 2009
1:12 am
all you hitters out there – keep justifying your disciplinary tactics all you want if it makes you feel better.
ScienceTeacher671
November 22nd, 2009
7:07 am
@wondering, my system does not allow corporal punishment. I didn’t use corporal punishment with my own children beyond a “swat” when they were toddlers, and I certainly don’t want to spank other people’s children.
I do think it’s pretty stupid to suggest, as some here have, that the majority of parents and teachers who spank get a sadistic thrill from doing so, and I think it’s pretty stupid to think that in the past 50 years, children have become so delicate that they will be irreparably harmed by a method of punishment that has apparently been used with some success for thousands of years.
Unfortunately, Saturday school does not work for all students either. Some are there almost every Saturday. Some won’t come to Saturday school, and sometimes they live too far away to walk and their parents can’t bring them due to work schedules or won’t bring them because they don’t want to get up early on Saturdays.
Some of the other punishments mentioned here, such as writing sentences or picking up trash around the school building, have been forbidden by our school board for one reason or another. Our “bag of tricks” becomes more limited by the day.
WTOC reports: Parent says school took paddling too far | Get Schooled School’s Rate
November 22nd, 2009
7:56 am
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Concerned parent.
November 22nd, 2009
9:53 am
Science Guy- What a sad statement…I’d love to visit your school…just to be sure I know where never to send my child. I don’t care whether you’re liked or not. It STILL doen’t make hittiing a child with a paddle acceptable. Please think about this…before you are one of those we read about…someone who thought he always had it under control…..
@competitive
November 22nd, 2009
10:38 am
How about if the educators move away from the ‘punishment’ model to the discipline model. I am actually a parent that is o.k. with saturday school and ok with silent lunch if it is warranted, but I want to be included in determining the discipline right from the start. I don’t want my child’s behavior issue unknown to me. I don’t want any educator to assume that I don’t want to be involved because I do. At the start of a behavior issue, I want to be informed and I want to know what you are thinking right away. Because I can promise you that although I am not a proponent of harsh discipline I am a proponent of natural consequences and in my house that is extra chores, removal of privileges, writing an apology letter, no friends and the like, and it works in my house because I am the one responsible. Please stop assuming all of us parents who are against hitting are lax parents, we are not.
Elementary School Teacher
November 22nd, 2009
12:08 pm
I teach in a county that, until last year, allowed paddling. As a teacher and a parent, I did not like the idea of an adult hitting a child with a piece of wood. However, the threat of paddling was an effective deterrent to misbehaving children. Unfortunately, as with all threats, I had to actually paddle some children. It made me feel like a brute and eventually, I stopped paddling on my own.
Another paddling problem that I observed was that it the inequitable manner in which it awarded to students. Black male students made up less than 25% of my school’s population but were recipients of greater than 50% (probably closer to 75%) of the licks. Again, based on observation, black male students were not responsible for an equivalent amount of the infractions. The common thought among the faculty was that they would not receive any punishment at home so it needed to be taken care of at school. I don’t believe that the disproportionate amount of paddling was due to overt racism because many of the teachers who frequently paddled students were also black. Some of the inequity may have been due to the reluctance of black teachers to paddle white students. Our county is small and rural, and there remains a vast gap between the races. That is an issue for a different blog.
Competitive
November 22nd, 2009
1:56 pm
To @Competitive:
Please reread my posts and look for the word “parent.” You will find that I did not use the word parent because the arguments against those punishments are made by educators, parents, academics, interest groups, and a host of other people who are not parents. Similarly, there are many people in a variety of groups who support those punishments. I am in no way making any statement about parents who do not want corporal punishment to be lax. Where did I write anything like that?
I will restate my message: Teachers need MORE OPTIONS for dealing with student misbehavior. If schools continue to ban any punishment that some group of people opposes, there will be no options left when punishment is required. If the punishments I listed above are not acceptable (and each of them is opposed by a significant group of people), then HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DISCIPLINE STUDENTS WHO MISBEHAVE? I want people to respond with more options and ideas.
Also, you mention moving from a punishment model to a discipline model. Please elaborate on what you mean by a discipline model. What are the differences in the models. Again, I’m not saying I’m opposed to your idea, I just want to know more about your idea.
I argue that no matter what discipline philosophy is implemented, there are always going to be students who make mistakes or poor choices and misbehave. Often, those actions require some form of punishment in response. We need options available in those situations. I have no problem involving the parent in developing a plan to change future behaviors, but the school must be able to make independent decisions on the punishment a student receives when misbehaving. We wouldn’t expect a judge to get our approval when sentencing our child after being convicted of a crime. Certainly, the parent deserves to be notified of misbehavior and punishments. However, it is impossible to notify a parent immediately every time a student talks in class and is assigned a silent lunch.
I see teachers who do a poor job maintaining discipline in their classes everyday. I am not denying that many teachers are the problem and many parents are excellent supporters of schools.All teachers must do a better job of establishing authority and relationships, providing bell to bell instruction, etc. But we also need options for dealing with misbehavior, and those options are being taken away from us. We can’t just say no to everything.
Kathy
November 22nd, 2009
1:57 pm
Elementary School Teacher…. Thank You for your bold statements that seem to support the ACLU’s recent findings regarding who gets spanked disproportionately….
I would like to repeat the question, who amongst you, especially educators, have actually taken the time to read HB605, The Student Disciplinary Act of 1999? Until you read the provisions and opportunities, you are missing out and so are the kids.
Here’s an email I received on June 9, 2009, “Your email to State Superintendent Kathy Cox has been received and is being addressed by AskDOE, the Superintendent’s help desk. I am responding on behalf of Superintendent Cox.
Upon receipt of your email, I consulted with our Policy Division, the office that conducts research for our agency. I was informed that we do not have research on corporal punishment as it relates to AYP. Additionally, we are not aware of any other source of research on this topic, either statewide or national.
Please let me know if I can provide assistance to you in the future.
Regards,
Sue Goodman
Manager, AskDOE
Georgia Department of Education
2054 Twin Towers East
205 Jesse Hill
So, why do we spank? How does it affect self esteem, which is the foundation for self efficacy? Like I stated previously, if spanking were an equal opportunity process then the subjective theories many of you are arguing might be taken more seriously.
ScienceTeacher671
November 22nd, 2009
3:46 pm
@Kathy, is self-esteem the foundation for self-efficacy, or does increased self-efficacy lead to increased self-esteem? I’ve always heard that the relationship is a bit unclear, but what I was told in graduate school and the most recent research I’ve seen tend to indicate toward the idea that increased efficacy would raise self-esteem, rather than vice versa.
Kathy
November 22nd, 2009
5:13 pm
According to the undergraduate work I successfully completed I was taught that there are several different disciplines in psychology and social psychology to explain behaviors and how one’s personality is developed. Self efficacy is a psychological theory researched by folks like Albert Bandura, who I especially like. The key phrase being this is only ONE of the psychological disciplines to understanding human behavior. I see no reason why you can’t have your self efficay steps manifesting into one’s self esteem if that is where your education experiences led you. To argue which came first, self esteem or self efficacy would be like arguing: which came first the chicken or the egg….or which came first, low expectations or low test scores (remember self fulfilly prophecy)?
Regardless which psychological discipline one prefers to predict and explain behaviors, or argue nature vs. nurture in learning, the question still stands: what affect does spanking have on minority and disabled children’s self esteem/self efficacy when they are cognitively intuned to see the evidence that they are not treated like their white peers. How should we expect these kids to cope with such inconsistencies?
My statements were never to get off the subject of spanking, but to examine what affect it might have on children. The crux of this whole issue should be, how does spanking increase high stakes test scores and making AYP. Georgia does NOT know if spanking is a best practice that is “scientifically based research” that begets the best outcome for all students.
gamom
November 22nd, 2009
5:59 pm
What gets me is that the educators on this blog are so matter of fact about hitting someone else’s child. It’s wrong folks! Call your lawmakers. Make them phones ring off the hook.
ScienceTeacher671
November 22nd, 2009
7:40 pm
Kathy, thank you for your response. I think if one were to do such a study, spanking at home would also have to be factored in. It would be an interesting study. I haven’t seen a list of which counties still use corporal punishment, but I still suspect it’s the smaller, poorer, and more rural counties which do — that would give you a lot of other variables that tend to reduce achievement as well.
All other factors being equal, I’d suspect that the schools with the best discipline might have the best achievement, but I don’t know if corporal punishment is more conducive to good discipline, or if it even matters which form of discipline is used so long as it is consistently applied – which I find not to be the case in many schools.
@competitive
November 22nd, 2009
8:44 pm
I disagree. I think teachers need MORE TRAINING in identifying learning disorders that may be contributing to misbehavior. And they need to know when to bring support staff in to do proper assessments and implement good positive behavior plans. It is your job under IDEA to identify those kids, right? So that’s in response to your statement that you need more options for ‘discipline’. What you need is identify kids who have the problems and HELP them.
@competitive
November 22nd, 2009
8:54 pm
I don’t know if my response to you got picked up by the spam fairy, but here’s what I suggest. Are you a special ed or general ed teacher? Not knowing what your focus is, there are so many wonderful resources online and at the library for classroom management. Also, if you are having a particular bad behavior issue, have you thought it may be do to an undetected learning problem or disorder? Are you pulling in the parents to discuss and troubleshoot and further have you thought about going to your support staff for early intervention or assessments.
@competitive
November 22nd, 2009
9:38 pm
my apologies for the above typos! Gosh I just re-read my post and found some errors….oh well.
Competitive
November 22nd, 2009
10:06 pm
????? I’m not sure how it relates to my question, but here goes…
1. I have taught for 11 years, most of it in general ed (middle school social studies). Every teacher in education is a special ed teacher, even if that is not their specialty. That is the result of mainstreaming.
The last few years I have been the ISS teacher at my school.
2. I don’t and never have had major discipline issues. I write very few referrals, and those usually for students who I don’t even teach (misbehavior of students in the hallway, bus lane, etc.). My students and I have a mutual relationship of respect and I deal with most issues that arise without anything worse than a detention. Corporal punishment is not allowed in my system.
3. I meet with parents and support staff frequently to discuss interventions for students, both academic and behavioral. Frankly, teachers (and some parents) usually come to me for advice.
4. Yes, many behavioral issues can be tied to academic issues.
5. I am very aware of the vast array of resources available with ideas for classroom management. I read literally hundreds of books, articles, websites, etc. in conducting research the last few years on school discipline, particularly as it relates to running an effective ISS program that helps reduce recidivism and maintain academic progress. Also, I’ve been to countless professional development meetings and sat through a variety of college courses that focus on student behavior.
6. My previous posts are not about me or my classroom. They are about education in general.My posts apply to all classrooms in all schools across the country. I am really serious when I say that schools and teachers need to have a variety of punishments available to deal with misbehavior. We will never be able to completely prevent misbehavior, so we have to have responses to it. I am sick of every single punishment that schools use being labeled unacceptable for one reason or another. If a particular punishment is considered unacceptable in a community, then so be it. But we have to have alternative punishments put in place THAT STUDENTS ACTUALLY CONSIDER A PUNISHMENT.
You don’t want corporal punishment. OK, then give us alternatives that students will respect. You don’t like ISS. OK, then give us alternatives that students will respect. You don’t like Saturday School. OK, then give us alternatives that students will respect. SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS NEED MORE OPTIONS IN DEALING WITH STUDENT MISBEHAVIOR.
I am asking for a real dialogue on what punishments are acceptable to the community at large, which punishments are effective, and what punishments are schools not currently using that would be both acceptable and effective. Every article I have read about school discipline in the AJC for the last several years essentially argues against the use of one punishment or another. We can’t just say no to every punishment. So, again, I ask for MORE OPTIONS TO BE OFFERED.
It’s interesting to me that no one on this blog has offered any new alternatives.
Leigh
November 22nd, 2009
11:19 pm
Two licks is not going to kill anybody, and it might just deter other students from the same behavior. Kids know that teachers can’t touch them, so they have free reign to do as they choose. In-House Suspension is exactly what they want – a day out of class. If they can’t be paddled, then perhaps cleaning toilets, mopping floors, and wiping lunch tables is an alternative.
Kathy
November 23rd, 2009
12:56 am
I would be curious as to how many compacts at Title I schools include corporal punishment in the verbage. How many schools allow parents in the creation and updating codes of conduct as OCGA 20-2-36 allows? Until schools actually embrace Georiga laws and or guidelines of HB 1187 and HB 605 and section 1118 of NCLB to involve parents than I have little to no confidence that educators actually want education reform…some are completely satisfied with Georgia’s ranking. After all somebody in the union has to be amongst the bottom 5 right? The more poor we have, the more federal dollars we get in Title I funds…. so as long as the money keeps coming, what is the incentive to actually educate? Besides, if we educated all the children, what jobs does Georgia have for them?
Kathy
November 23rd, 2009
1:03 am
Correction: OCGA 20-2-736 regarding involving parents in the creation and updating codes of conduct, sorry for any confusion……..
Kathy
November 23rd, 2009
1:49 am
If anyone wants the data regarding corporal punishment for school systems in Georgia simply write to legal analyst, Patricia Mills at the GDOE. ONe parent obtained the data and paid $35 and she was so kind to share it with a group of us. After running the data and comparing it to AYP, the findings were that school systems that do not utilize corporal punishment were more likely to make AYP. Also, something interesting….County schools are also less likely to make AYP than city school systems, which might be along the lines or theory of ScienceTeacher671. I would encourage any or all of you, if you have the ability and interest to run the numbers and do a study. Remember, this year, there is an 8.1 increase for CRCT math proficiency in order for schools to make AYP. (5 & 8 graders) which may skew the study…however, prior to 2010, school systems had 3 years to achieve the same level of meeting standards, which makes comparing corporal punishment and AYP more feasible.
ScienceTeacher671
November 23rd, 2009
7:36 am
@competitive, I have no doubt that many of the behavior problems we see are due to undiagnosed academic problems, but you’d be amazed what we have to go through to get them to even consider testing a student for learning problems…much less actually do the testing!
Leigh, our system doesn’t allow paddling or cleaning up around the school or writing assignments to be used as punishment.
Kathy, keep in mind that if the law says parents must be involved, the schools can’t keep them out, if the parents are interested and want to be involved. It’s also possible that in the communities that allow corporal punishment, parents are involved and think corporal punishment is just fine – “it worked when we were in school, didn’t it?” I take it that when you did your AYP study, you didn’t take SES into account?
gamom
November 23rd, 2009
10:43 am
Finally! Science Teacher – you just confirmed what I suspected – that you said behavior issues can be related to undiagnosed academic problems – This is precisely why this barbaric practice must be eliminated, because the studies show there are kids being punished for things they cannot help. School systems are supposed to be indentifying these kids and helping them – Not Punishing them.
Mo- can you find out if there is any plan for Appling to review and revise their policy . Inquiring minds want to know. In the meantime, I know I will never move there.
ScienceTeacher671
November 23rd, 2009
11:43 am
gamom, I didn’t say they couldn’t help their behavior. It’s well known that some children who are struggling academically choose to misbehave so their their peers will think they are failing because they are “cutting up” rather than think they are failing because they are “stupid.”
KidsRpeople2
November 23rd, 2009
11:57 am
The FACT is that Physical/Corporal Punishment is not allowed in prisons or juvenile detention centers, it is ILLEGAL for school employees to hit children with WOODEN PADDLES in SCHOOLS in 30 STATES, Come on people, ask yourselves “Why?” If physical punishment were so wonderful, why don’t nations have a competition in the Olympics for it? Did you enjoy the feelings you had when you were a child being hit? Did it teach you respect or fear and resentment and distrust? We have laws to protect animals from physical punishment, why not children? Physical Punishment does not belong in our tax-payer funded schools! We have tv shows that teach people to be calm and in control of themselves when dealing with their dogs, such as “The Dog Whisperer” and “It’s Me or the Dog!”, why not more shows similar to “Nanny 911″ or “Supernanny” where child experts teach parents how to effectively engage their children and teach them non-violenct problem solving through non-violent “discipline” practices? If hitting children with wooden paddles is so acceptable, why don’t prime time children’s television shows portray that as a reality? Perhaps when people record what is taking place in our schools and it is broadcast on the evening news all of this sad ignorant, lazy “discipline” in schools by hitting children with WOODEN PADDLES will finally come to an end, as the majority of American citizens are unaware that physical punishment of children in schools is legal or practiced anywhere in the U.S. Our nation’s children deserve to be treated with human dignity and respect and our Education System MUST include training for educators in NON-VIOLENT Discipline techniques!
Sarge
November 23rd, 2009
1:18 pm
Only two licks…poor kid!
Kathy
November 23rd, 2009
4:36 pm
scienceteacher671, You said, “– “it worked when we were in school, didn’t it?” I take it that when you did your AYP study, you didn’t take SES into account?”
I never got spanked and we did not have any black kids OR disabled kids in our classroom…. the disabled kids were all in one room where none of us could see them. The point being today that studies show that “minorities and disabled groups” are being disproportionately spanked.
I am curious what supplemental education services has to do when comparing AYP to corporal punishment. If a school is having to offer SES and/or choice, both would skew the data to reflect BETTER scores as tutoring is supposed to raise test scores, and not being at a particular failing school might decrease the disaggregrate’s group numbers, which may enable a school to not consideer that group (Georgia is 40) indeterming AYP. Thus, I don’t necessarily see SES as a confound.
Also, in any type of scientific research, additional research is encouraged either to duplicate the study and/or to come up with one’s own theory/hypothesis. The point here being that the GDOE uses tax dollars and time to document and collect the data, but for what purpose?
ALthough the law has guidelines for parents to be involved, it is not that easy because the Ga. constitution Article VIII Section V paragraph I & II empowers the elected BOE members the constititutional right to see to the day to day operations of schools in their jurisdiction.
I am also curious why any school personell wants to take over the role of a parent entirely? ScienceTeacher671, did you have an opportunity to read HB605?
ScienceTeacher671
November 23rd, 2009
6:02 pm
Kathy, my point was that some parents support corporal punishment in the schools, and in places where corporal punishment is still used, it is quite likely that the majority of the parents DO support it — otherwise there would be quite a bit of pressure on the school boards to change the policy.
By the way, that’s the same law that says teachers have the right and the power to remove disruptive students from the classroom — but in practice, most of the time we really don’t.
Kathy
November 23rd, 2009
6:15 pm
ScienceTeacher671 you wrote: it is quite likely that the majority of the parents DO support it — otherwise there would be quite a bit of pressure on the school boards to change the policy.
2 things here: It is highly likely that a survey regarding corporal punishment HAS NEVER been dispersed to parents or primary caregivers….remember: Title I schools receive federal funding to INVOLVE parents (USDOE mandates that districts have to spend 1% on involving parents). This is a pretty good indicator the involvement of parents that the Fed. govt. has to pay them to be involved.
ALSO: Ever heard of Diffusion of repsonsibility? IT is my professional conclusion that parents are more likely, than not, to wait for someone else to speak up.
Yes, HB 605 offers guidelines to get rid of students…and the reason why teachers might not be using this process could be because after so many students are referred to the office, that teacher is looked at and may have to undergo “CLASSROOM MANAGEMENT” training
@competitive
November 23rd, 2009
6:44 pm
I beleive in earlier interventions to identify children with learning disorders and other medical/health related issues. Children usually act out when needs are not being met. Therefore, those needs have to be met. Now I understand school systems cannot be the be-all and end – all, but frankly the kids should not be scapegoats either. Meet the individual needs of the kids, you likely will see improved behavior and implement pbis from the top on down. That means administrators have to buy into it too.
Terry
November 23rd, 2009
7:59 pm
I have been writing to lawmakers for over a year on this issue to get a measure introduced to repeal 20-2-730, 20-2-731 and other related statutes as it relates to hitting of children in the name of ‘discipline’. So far no luck. One lawmaker alluded that there was not enough public outcry from parents. I don’t know how much more public outcry there needs to be quite honestly. With that said, every parent concerned about this needs to review their school districts policies and OPT OUT with a note from an licensed medical doctor and perhaps even a letter from an attorney, and it has to be done every year without fail and hopefully parents can keep their children safe at school After I read the recent report by the ACLU/Human Rights Watch I was simply appalled at the report because this apparently is even happening to kids with disabilities. Why? This should not be happening at all. So please write your georgia lawmakers and include your members of Congress and tell them enough is enough.
E
November 24th, 2009
8:08 am
On one side, I tend to want to say yes, paddling is horrible because, well, it seems everyone does lately – and the reasons seem nice enough at first…
but I also recall when they took paddling away from my school growing up. I only remember one person ever being paddled – and him just once. The school was a pleasant place, I don’t recall fights – there was a line students just would not cross. It went away and there were some classes you might as well have put a zoo keeper in. Fist fights, students sent home injured, classes that had no instruction time for weeks. The first impulse is to say paddling is bad… but even the guy who was paddled didn’t say it hurt – it just hit his ego. It was controlled, done by administrators, and parents were notified at the start of the year (just as they are now notified about every other punishment, but few bother to read that). On the flip side… if they get rid of that they do need something else – ISS, OSS, and detention are just games to many students. Some will even ask for it to get out of class – I’ve seen teachers told by students that they’ll “make you pay if you make me stay in class, so you might as well send me out now”. As far as parent punishment? Many refuse contact with the school, list wrong phone numbers and are furious if you do somehow manage to contact them. It’s nuts out there now.
ScienceTeacher671
November 24th, 2009
9:47 am
Kathy, our school district hasn’t used paddling for 10-20 years, but we still have parents who come in and tell us we should paddle their children if they misbehave. Of course we do not, but not all parents find the idea of spanking, even at school, as abhorrent as you do.
Terry
November 24th, 2009
9:50 am
All of you educaors who say this is acceptable are basing your opinion on only anecdotal subjective information. The educators need to understand there is not one peer reviewed study that says it works at all. Leave the anecdotes aside and out of the picture. I am beginning to believe that this problem will never get fixed based on the comments by educators. All well-respected, peer reviewed studies indicate the children being struck at school go on to develop serious, serious issues. Including more aggression, depression, and a host of other issues. But I guess no one cares about that.