In mixed up world: “Girls will be boys and boys will be girls”
There was a good Sunday New York Times story on the growing tension between gender-bender high school students and traditional dress codes. The story made brief reference to the recent North Cobb High case involving student Jonathan Escobar.
There seems to be a rise in news stories about cross-dressing students. A Houston senior was in the news last week when he wore black leather pants, purple high heels and a page-boy wig to class. It was the wig that landed him in trouble because his school has a rule that boys cannot wear hair longer than their collars.
Among the points of view reflected in the story:
“This generation is really challenging the gender norms we grew up with,” said Diane Ehrensaft, an Oakland psychologist who writes about gender. “A lot of youths say they won’t be bound by boys having to wear this or girls wearing that. For them, gender is a creative playing field.” Adults, she added, “become the gender police through dress codes.”
“It’s hard enough to get kids to concentrate on an algorithm — even without Jimmy sitting there in lipstick and fake eyelashes,” said Kay Hymowitz, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. “You can understand why a lot of principals get fed up with these sorts of fights and just decide on school uniforms.”
When the local case was in the news, many of you weighed in that cross dressing is both a distraction to other students and a potential danger to the cross dresser. (The article cites the death of a cross dressing eighth grader in California, shot to death in class by another student last year. )
I think schools will have to come to terms with gender experimentation as students feel freer to flout conventional expressions of femininity and masculinity. I see more and more teen boys in eye liner and scarves. (Girls have always been a lot freer to wear male attire.)
The Times says:
ALTHOUGH dress code disputes are largely anecdotal, popping up in the news when a lawsuit threat emerges, educators and psychologists say that more schools will have to address them in the near future. There are 4,118 gay-straight alliance clubs in high schools across the country, which raise awareness of such issues. Gender-boundary questions are even bubbling up in elementary schools, with parents seeking to pave the way for their children, in blogs like acceptingdad.com and labelsareforjars.wordpress.com.
It’s a new world, and I’m not sure schools have figured out how to respond. Nor do I have any suggestions beyond what I said a few weeks ago. If anyone has any insights, please share them with us.
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42 comments Add your comment
Everything old is new again!
November 8th, 2009
11:46 pm
Oh, please – this is nothing new. Remember the glam movement in rock in the early 70s? The hoopla over hippies and their long hair in the 60s? Punk rock in the 80s? Dandies in Europe 100+ years ago? The young will always want to do something to separate themselves from the adult mainstream and gender-bending is a sure-fire way to get those over thirty (the ones the baby-boomers themselves said not to trust) to get their panties in a wad. Even the homosexuality (whether it’s experimentation or orientation) isn’t new either.
Society – been there, done that.
Sarge
November 9th, 2009
2:30 am
Every generation has demonstrated their oddities to the oldsters of the day, often with mixed reception. My folks, with their zoot suites, the Charlston, etc, probably ticked off the adults, much as my generations’ Beatle hair styles, white socks with Sunday dress attire, and two-inch wide neckties served as a source of great annoyance to them. One of the greatest insults, relative to hair length, was “…hey, Buba, you might as well put on a dress and call yourself Mary”!
It would be the charitable thing to wisk off today’s teenage antics with a kids-will-be-kids (psuedo) acceptance. However, I’m not too sure we can afford that luxury anymore. Already, there are glaring signs of “lost generations”…kids who, well into the late-teen/”pre-adult” years seem to demonstrate little viability as budding productive members of a society already struggling and starving for leadership and direction. When the current 40/60-somethings are fully retired and “out of the picture” as far as providing that leadership goes, we will have ample cause to BE AFRAID…VERY AFRAID!
Craig S
November 9th, 2009
7:11 am
“And a potential danger to the cross-dresser”. Why do we blame the cross-dresser for the danger, rather than the ignorant, unstable person, who thinks that a gun helps him deal with his lack of communication skills. It’s more of today’s society of blame the dead instead of the real problem. Lets bring back personal-responsibility.
Capper
November 9th, 2009
7:54 am
I am very much opposed to stopping smoking in mental institutions. I think if you want to smoke in a mental institution you ought to be allowed to.
Also, I believe boys should dress like boys and girls like girls. Back in my day, if somebody got a little weird, they would get their ass whipped and get them back in line. We need more of that today.
clyde
November 9th, 2009
8:11 am
Keep in mind that the mentioned eigth grader was shot by a classmate,keeping the self correction within the generation.
V for Vendetta
November 9th, 2009
8:19 am
Craig S.,
Absolutely! Blame a person for being gay, but don’t place any blame on the biogted fool who beat/shot/killed him. Kids will be distracted? Only if they were raised by bigoted parents. Sorry, I don’t particularly care for people with closed minds . . . .
. . . like Capper. Of course, let’s just slap the homosexuality out of people. Why haven’t we tried that before!? There is a line a parent can walk between enforcer and friend. I am the first person to say that spanking is still acceptable, but only if it is deserved. How about this instead: Explain to the child the ramifications of his or her choice of attire. Tell them the potential negative effects that could come from dressing in such a way, but allow him or her to make the final choice. (Note: I’m strictly speaking of cross-dressing here, not homosexuality. If you believe that’s a choice, do us all a favor and jump off of a very tall structure.)
RJ
November 9th, 2009
10:03 am
The first thing I though about was my male friends in high school wear eyeliner. Yes, they’re all out of the closet now, but in the 80’s it wasn’t that big of a deal. Now a wig and heels are bit extreme.
@ V I totally disagree with you. “Kids will be distracted? Only if they were raised by bigoted parents.” You don’t have to be raised by bigots to see something extremely different and become distracted. Even when a girl wears a pink wig, it’s a distraction. And, many students are brought up in homes that are based on religious morals and values. While homosexuality may be accepted, cross dressing may not. There is a definite difference.
I would never allow my “child” to make a choice as to whether or not they would wear clothes of the opposite sex. They can make that choice as an adult. Until then, they’ll wear what I provide. Part of the problem with children today is that they’re given less direction and more options. Sure, I allow my kids to make certain choices in life. As a matter of fact, when they do something wrong, I explain to them that they made a poor choice. However, there are times when parents have to make a choice for them. You’re the parent.
Boys should dress like boys and girls should dress like girls. There should be no discussion. When they’re grown, they can dress however they please.
DeKalb Conservative
November 9th, 2009
10:39 am
Every time this topic comes up I think people are too quick to jump to finger pointing. Think back to when you were a kid — kids are pretty smart. Though they often have trouble controlling their outbursts, it doesn’t take a boy wearing high heals and make up to trigger a child’s intuitions that something is unusual. Not to stereotype, but a boy having a strong love for music and theatre, only hanging out with girls and having no male friends tends to trigger a similar reaction from students as would a boy wearing a wig and high heels.
DeKalb Conservative
November 9th, 2009
10:51 am
Why is the burden always on the masses to be accepting? I’m all for individual choice and for others to respect the choices of others, but I must question the long term impact. I suppose the same question comes up each generation, but what type of future and path in life can a young person expect that is unable to assimilate to society norms, or at least contain their behavior to not be displayed in formal settings such as school.
Just like conversations need to be made to make the public aware of these young people and how they identify their gender — the same needs to occur to the youth. Some one needs to make them aware of the impact of their individual actions and the limitations it will potentially create for them as adults. By not assimilating they severely limit their income source options as adults.
DeKalb Conservative
November 9th, 2009
10:58 am
I used to intern at Disney World. Disney is a popular work place for the GLBT community and has thousands of employees that identify as GLBT. That said, Disney has very strict policies on customer-facing male employee appearance:
– Men must have their hair color be natural and one color.
– Men cannot have facial hair, other than a mustache.
– Men cannot have sideburns past their ears
– Men cannot have earings and must take them out during work
– Men cannot have any visible tattoos
– Men cannot wear makeup
Related to this topic, is Disney being too harsh with its policies? Are some of the GLBT employees sellouts for complying with Disney policies and silencing their identities in the workplace?
SallyB
November 9th, 2009
11:02 am
This is just another example of the effects of our permissive, child centered world. So afraid to injure a child’s .. “self esteem” [oh how I hate those words and the infinite damage they have done to our young!] ….we allow children [and as long as they are your dependents that's what they are ] to make decisions they are not equipped to make and that should be in the parents’ domain.
ON THE OTHER HAND
Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, and even Hesiod [700 B.C.poet] have, according to some sources, all complained about the future of youth of their day and even of their culture.
“What is happening to our young
people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They
ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions.
Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?”
AND
“I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words.”
“…..Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?”
AND
“…….As for the girls, they are forward, immodest
and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress.”
SallyB
November 9th, 2009
11:06 am
Uh-Oh…Big Bad Filter Monster got me again!!!!
mystery poster
November 9th, 2009
11:32 am
I think if a company has a set policy (like Disney), then they are free to enforce it and people know beforehand if they want to work there or not.
My main problem with the Cobb incident was that the student violated no written dress code rules.
Also, I don’t buy the argument about these students limiting their income potential. Students know very well that different situations warrant different behaviors. Even a two year old knows he can get away with more at Grandma’s than at home.
Terry
November 9th, 2009
11:49 am
@capper – your post was scarey to me
V for Vendetta
November 9th, 2009
11:54 am
RJ,
Your “my way or the highway” approach works in some circumstances, but not in others. Why don’t you try talking to your kids instead of demanding things from them. Before you lump me into some sort of hippie, laid-back discipline group, know this: I spank, I yell, and I make darn sure my point is heard. I also talk to my kids and make sure they understand the hows and the whys of what is happening. Action/reaction, cause/effect.
Dekalb Conservative,
Ah yes, the masses . . . If the masses don’t agree with something, then why should they be forced to put up with it? Careful, my friend. You are walking some dangerous philosophical ground. Majority rule is simply mob rule, and mob rule is collectivism in its most primal state. A group should NEVER have the power to infringe on an individual’s rights without proper cause. I hardly call cross-dressing a proper cause. Your Disney example is flawed because they are a company, and a company has made its expectations clear from the get-go. But a public school is NOT a company, and, since all children are forced to attend, dress code rules such as these should be open for discussion. (It is important to note that a private school, because it chooses who to admit, can make whatever rules it wants in regards to dress code–and most often do.)
Your viewpoint is exactly why I would never consider myself a conservative.
jim d
November 9th, 2009
11:58 am
MAJORITY RULES AT THE EXPENSE OF INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY.
WHAT A LOAD OF DONKEY DUNG
mystery poster
November 9th, 2009
12:00 pm
@V
Are you reading my mind? You seem to write exactly what I’m thinking (although you verbalize it much better).
DeKalb Conservative
November 9th, 2009
12:03 pm
@ mystery poster
Fair point about the difference between a private enterprise such as Disney and a required education such as Cobb. That said, a specific written dress code might not be required if there is a sufficient code of conduct statement. Never seeing the Cobb rules I can’t comment, however such clauses tend to be included and are often fairly liberal allowing administration to put its own interpretation on it. However, to your point if such a dress code rule doesn’t exist, then the burden remained on the school administration to include such a clause and address such a matter in the next printing.
In terms of limiting income potential, it absolutely will. In particular alot of customer facing roles will not be available without assimilation. That’s where the Disney example comes in. Each young person identifies himself/herself as gender bending will need to decide if he/she wants to conform or not.
jim d
November 9th, 2009
12:06 pm
Let me get this straight—
Many of you believe a child has a RIGHT to a forced government education. But don’t believe they have a RIGHT to dress themself?
What a screwed up place this is fast becoming!
RJ
November 9th, 2009
12:08 pm
@V you misunderstand. I don’t yell and make demands, I set the expectations in my home. My kids and I talk EVERYDAY! I just had an incident with my teen, but we were able to talk it through. I reminded her know that I was once a teen and did some very stupid things. We talk about everything in my home. However, I do have rules in which they must abide. I teach, so my opinion stems from what I encounter daily.
Parents are able to attend board meetings and address their concerns regarding school dress codes. I doubt that any board is going to approve boys wearing wigs and dresses to school though. Schools have enough issues without adding Johnny wearing a dress like Susie’s to them. Children need to learn that in certain situations you are expected to dress and behave a certain way. If not now, when?
V for Vendetta
November 9th, 2009
12:08 pm
mystery poster,
Thanks! However, you should keep posting, too. Maybe we’ll get through to a few people.
RJ
November 9th, 2009
12:11 pm
One more thing, where does this freedom stop? Should we allow girls to wear halter tops and mini skirts to express themselves? Continue to allow boys to sag their pants without reprimand? Can white tees or other solid color tees be allowed again even though students were wearing certain colors to represent their gang? The line has to be drawn somewhere.
jim d
November 9th, 2009
12:13 pm
The line can be drawn when students are no longer FORCED to attend the school of someone elses choice.
V for Vendetta
November 9th, 2009
12:14 pm
RJ,
Do they really need to “dress and behave in a certain way”? You’re assuming that they’re all going to grow up to be accountants, but that’s not the case. I think teaching them that, in order to be an accountant, you most likely have to dress in a suit and tie is a better lesson than just saying don’t dress like a girl. I agree with you (and Dekalb Conservative) on that point, but I think that a student, especially a teen, can understand such a concept without being forced.
You also said that you remind her that you were young and did “some very stupid things.” Are you likening cross-dressing to a “very stupid thing”?
I’m a teacher as well, and I think there are far larger problems to address in public education than cross-dressing. Let’s get our priorities straight.
V for Vendetta
November 9th, 2009
12:15 pm
RJ,
Your examples are of things sexual and/or discipline in nature. I think prohibiting such attire is fine. I have been assuming all along that the cross-dressing would adhere to the normal dress code at most schools.
Warrior Woman
November 9th, 2009
12:23 pm
@ Mystery poster. In what you call the “Cobb incident” the school did nothing to penalize the student, other than to tell him he couldn’t use the women’s restrooms and he couldn’t wear the hot pink wig with bunny ears in class. Even then, the school offered use of the faculty restrooms if the men’s rooms made Jonathan uncomfortable. Despite this, Jonathan withdrew himself because he felt discriminated against. This is the student’s problem. The school was in the right on this one.
Badger
November 9th, 2009
12:29 pm
This is a country that was founded on freedoms. The pursuit of life liberty and happiness are more than just words in our constitution. “In God we Trust” is imprinted on all our coins and our forefathers were steeped in religion. Yes it also says “All Men are Created Equal”, and they are. That doesn’t mean a child from the day he or she is born, has every right that an adult would have. This is a child people, even if that child is in High School, he or she is still a child. Just becuase they want to do something, doesn’t mean they should. We as parents, administrators and adults, have put way too much emphasis on allowing children to express themselves. Expression is good but when it goes against societies norms, and for all the gays, lesbions and atheists out there, our societies norms place you outside accepted behavior. That is not to say that you don’t have the right to be what you want or believe what you want. Children in school are impressionable and should be directed in a positive manner. That means their expected behavior is that of what society considers inside its parameters of norms. Especially if it is a distraction to other students that want to learn. Besides they have all their ADULT life to be what they want to be.
V for Vendetta
November 9th, 2009
12:32 pm
Badger,
Thanks for putting us all “outside societal norms.” (I’ll let you decide which one of your examples I am.) See my earlier post in regards to majority–i.e., mob–rule.
You know, the Nazis thought the Jews were “outside societal norms” as well. Just saying.
DeKalb Conservative
November 9th, 2009
12:49 pm
@ V for Vendetta
When I discuss the masses I am referring to free marketing capitalism. People go to Disney because they have a perceived expectation of what type of experience they’ll receive. This includes what the park will look like, and how the employees will look and interact with them.
The Disney example is where tolerance and acceptance but heads. A company can tolerate a particular lifestyle, not discriminate and even use affirmative action style hiring-quotas if it decides. The same company can also decide not to accept such a lifestyle interfering with the customer experience.
If schools, in particular public school are supposed to prepare youth to be adult citizens, then what obligation does the school have to prepare a student for a potential life in the private sector?
I realize this illustrates why you would never want to be a conservative, but let’s use a little common sense. Would a pair of heals, a wig and some fake eyelashes be appropriate for a male high school-aged student to wear on a part time job interview? What about a college admission interview?
If a guy wants to dress heavily feminine, let him. Just make sure he understands the potential outcome from his actions and let him make the decision is this is how he wants to project himself.
Larry
November 9th, 2009
12:54 pm
Except for Lola…
Actually, I live between a high school and the student parking lot. After diligently observing students walking between the two, I have no idea how the boys dress.
Exactly why young guys are so easily distracted from their natural role in life is troubling, so I’ll do my part to help:
Listen up young men – for every gay/cross-dressing/effeminate guy you see, there is a girl who can’t find a boyfriend. Applying what you should have learned about supply and demand to this situation, this means ladies your age will be forced to lower their expectations. As the odds tip in your favor, you will be able to date pretty, intelligent girls who normally wouldn’t be caught dead talking to a jerk like you, simply because there isn’t anyone else. I was once where you are now and have spent over 20 years with the most gorgeous woman on the planet only because she can’t find a normal, decent man who isn’t gay.
If your buddy wants to dress like a girl, buy the guy some lipstick. The payback will be when you can safely ignore criticism about how you leave the toilet seat and who takes out the garbage.
DeKalb Conservative
November 9th, 2009
12:55 pm
This type of topic is where liberals / progressives and libertarian-leaning conservatives tend to find some common ground. Want to dress to a different gender? Go for it. If it blows up in your face and you are denied a job because of it, or lose a job because you are unable (unwilling) to assimilate to provide an experience that meets the norms of customer expectations, don’t come complaining.
No one should deny a person the ability to dress this way based on some moral ground — Southern republicans are notorious for taking some moral high road on topics such as this. Equally, no gender-bending person should be able to jam down acceptance for this lifestyle at business owners / hiring managers, in particular for positions where such an appearance could have adverse effects on desired customer action, including sales and business revenue.
DeKalb Conservative
November 9th, 2009
1:07 pm
@ Badger
You make some good points, however there’s one point I strongly disagree with. “Children in school are impressionable and should be directed in a positive manner.”
Implying a gender-bending lifestyle is not positive is just ignorant. The idea that being gay, lesbians, or an atheist goes against society norms is absurd. Society norms are based around behavior, not identification.
Using your argument you could say that all Catholics go against society norms because they hold a different view of God. In addition, you could also say that all pro-life Christians are against society norms because 50.1%+ of Americans believe in a women’s choice.
RJ
November 9th, 2009
1:15 pm
@V I really think you’re missing my point. First, I NEVER stated that cross dressing was a very stupid thing. Since you’re an educator, I ‘ll let you re-read my post without clarifying.
I never suggested that they would become accountants or any other white collar professional. I am stating that there is a time and place for everything. And dress is most definitely a school priority.
RJ
November 9th, 2009
1:18 pm
@Dekalb Conservative, well said.
V for Vendetta
November 9th, 2009
2:19 pm
Dekalb Conservative and RJ,
A student could dress however he or she wants in college, so why not public school? I think they understand before entering the workforce what a particular employer tolerates. I don’t think the school/job prep argument holds water here.
I saw kids dress like this when I was in college. No one got hurt. We even learned a little. Imagine that.
In mixed up world: “Girls will be boys and boys will be girls … School’s Rate
November 9th, 2009
2:56 pm
[...] more: In mixed up world: “Girls will be boys and boys will be girls … By admin | category: boys school | tags: county, goalie, johnny, lacrosse, [...]
DeKalb Conservative
November 9th, 2009
3:06 pm
@ V for Vendetta
I know I’ve had alot of posts on here today, but I’m all for letting kids dress how they want. Kids should be given the benefit of the doubt that they can learn the importance of what settings certain behaviors are expected in. Call it a common sense ‘dress for success’ attitude. Since success means different things to different people and success can be measured differently, why not allow some more segmentation?
There is some danger in your argument. You’re making an assumption a student is going to college. Again, if the sole purpose of a school was to prepare a student for self sufficient adult citizenship, then discussing college has no merit. The community’s obligation to the student and preparing him for adult citizenship ends with an earned high school diploma, the lowest common denominator.
That said, let’s debate the college angle. Unlike public secondary schools, in college (public or private) a student is not forced into that environment and has an obligation to fund he/her way, either through capital, or through scholarship. In college, the student has more choice and has more control over his destiny.
In college the stakes are raised to the freedom and choices a student can make and in addition the stakes are raised for students to express opposing views towards cross dressers, a negative outcome. In high school verbal outbursts, or other negative behavior, including hazing directed towards a cross dresser is more easily identified and punishable. Move to college where some campuses have 30k+ students and no vice principal for discipline, and it gets a whole lot harder for a cross dresser to stop harassment.
Finally college tends to blur the classroom v. non-classroom setting via dorm rooms. In public high schools students do not attend school on the same campus that they live. I do realize that for the very flamboyant cross dresser that this blurring can make life more difficult because there are fewer safe havens were he is able to dress the way he identifies himself without being surrounded by negative reactions of his peers.
Amy D
November 9th, 2009
10:23 pm
Dear Ms. Downey,
In my opinion the phenomena of “gender-bending” you discussed in your recent article describing the growing tensions between “gender-bending” teenagers and traditional dress codes, In mixed up world: “Girls will be boys and boys will be girls,” are indicative of a deeper issue that has actually been around since the very beginning of education. That issue is, how much First Amendment freedom are we willing to give students within school walls? To put it another way, how do we balance a student’s freedom of expression against a school’s need for order?
This problem came up during the Vietnam War when, in a noteworthy Supreme Court case Tinker v Des Moines School District, the Court ruled that students were allowed to wear armbands in protest contra to the school’s complaints. This decision did not, however, allow students to enjoy First Amendment rights fully. Instead, the Court ruled that students could only protest and otherwise act out against school policies under the protection of the First Amendment so long as their actions did not disrupt the learning environment in schools.
Many individuals would argue that the recent “gender bending” acts against school code, such as cross-dressing, would probably, if not definitely, disrupt the learning environment and should be disallowed. Based on the manner in which schools are fun today, these actions probably would cause a disruption. However, I argue that the distraction that would ensue is not representative of a problem within the action of the children, but instead with the set up of the schools. If our schools were run in such a way where children were encouraged to take an idea and think about it, I mean really think about it, these sorts of actions would not cause a disruption. If children were given the opportunity, after being provided with all the facts, to make their own decisions about an idea’s value and merit as opposed to just given a ‘truth’ by the education system, children acting contrary to certain policies would not be distracting at all. Instead the practice of constant inquiry would be a part of the learning process. That is, children would be taught to question the norm. They would be encouraged to make decisions for themselves after being given all the facts. This sort of system would turn out more tolerant and compassionate individuals. For example, instead of perpetuating outdated gender stereotypes, children would be freer to decide how to define themselves as individuals, not as part of a sex. I am not saying that children should or would agree with everything that other students believed. Instead, they would be able to at least respect and dignify others’ opinions (which is more than many adults are able to do). This system would also give children a better chance of success in their own lives and as contributing citizens. This is the case because instead of focusing on the useless retention of random facts, which unfortunately many schools do, the system would focus on analytical thought, which is a much more important tool than memorization.
I know this sounds like a sort of cuckoo idea at first, but understand that I am not advocated that there be no rules, or that children be encouraged to break rules. Instead, children should be able, with their teachers, to talk about a system of rules that should be implemented. They should discuss why some are better and more necessary than others, and why some treat certain groups of students unfairly. What better training for being an engaged citizen? In this system, children could wear what they wanted so long as the other students agreed that it didn’t hurt or distract anyone. The only reason a wig on a boy is distracting is because adults have been telling children that it’s not right. I think schools need to be more focused on educating children in how to think freely. Children need to be more involved in determining the rules that they will be subject to within school walls. This is America after all, if we are going to preach freedom, shouldn’t we teach it as well?
Amy Durrence
Raised in Marietta GA in Cobb County public schools
philosopher-
November 10th, 2009
8:48 am
Amy Durrence….I would certainly not argue with such reasoning-well said! HOWEVER… my experience with public schools is that being reasonable is not part of the game plan…kids thinking for themselves is NOT encouraged in public school…CONTROL is what it is all about…on every level. The answer to every problem faced by school officials is, “take it away”, “prohibit it”‘, or “punish it”. Hell’s bells, they can’t even handle the small things…someone wrote on the wall in the bathroom at my child’s school, so now, they aren’t allowed to use the bathroom (it’s true! ). Public school mentality…you can’t teach them anything new.
meanbutlovingMAMA
November 10th, 2009
9:07 am
@ Larry … LOL!!!
BlackGirl
November 10th, 2009
9:56 am
Until NCLB is ended or revamped, the only concern of public schools will be test scores.
Bring Back Southern Voice!
November 25th, 2009
12:21 pm
Great discussions! I agree we should pay attention to our children, and if you want to focus on dress, okay. Now let’s channel all of this energy to homework, safety, discipline, structure, morals, guidance, etc.