Virtual schools, but real tax dollars paying for them. Good idea?
I’m en route to the charter school rally at the Capitol. Interesting AJC story today by D. Aileen Dodd on for-profit online class providers seeking approval from our new state Charter School Commission. The commission’s approval to set up shop in Georgia and thus qualify for school tax funding would be a financial bonanza for such companies.
Take a look at the story. I was a doubter of the effectiveness of virtual classes until I looked at the scores of high school students in Georgia taking AP classes online. Their scores were in the range of peers who took the AP classes in schools. The high school program is overseen by the state DOE.
However, I have concerns about doling out thousands in tax dollars to private online providers. My chief concern is monitoring. I suspect that the spending would be hard to parse if any questions ever arose.
Back in a few hours. I won’t be around to clear filter until 1.
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40 comments Add your comment
Bone
November 6th, 2009
9:35 am
When change occurs anywhere, everyone looks at the negatives. This is especially true with regards to education. Our basic core education hasn’t change in over 100 years…educating our kids for a life of an assembly line.
Back in my day, we had no course material made available for learning how to balence a checkbook or the pros and cons establishing credit…wish they did. Currently my daughter is taking such a course in high school. But to install changes within the core process takes years, which is not good for our kids today.
I welcome an opportunity to see if this will work. Apparently the process is fine to receive a college degree. Why not high school and other levels?
Meme
November 6th, 2009
10:41 am
I think on-line school for all students is coming. I too worry about the monitering.
Michael
November 6th, 2009
11:30 am
This isn’t new and it isn’t good. Anyone who’s taken an online course or participated in an online conference knows how much you miss. Let’s not intentionally fund second-class education just because it’s cheaper.
Seana
November 6th, 2009
11:52 am
I am one of the lucky parents that get to teach my daughter with Georgia Virtual Academy, an online public school. Just so you know, there is monitoring. children turn in portfolios, take performance tests and also take the CRCT as well as other standardized tests. I would recommend that people such as Michael do his research as to how the school teaches before making comments.
As my daughter’s teacher I have the advantage of being responsible for my child’s education and how she is raised. I no no longer have worries about her being attacked at school, worry about bullies, or worry that my innocent little girl is receiving a sex education class from her “peers” on how to use your camera phone to record performing sexual acts and how to post it to YouTube. But, hey if that is the education that you are looking for for your child, please send your child to the traditional school where the classrooms are too filled for them to get the one on one instruction that my child is getting.
Meme
November 6th, 2009
11:55 am
Seana, I am sorry that you had such an experience with public school, but they are not all as you describe.
Online Educator
November 6th, 2009
12:04 pm
As a person who has been involved in online education for the past 6 years, I have to let Michael know that online education is not “2nd class education.” As with any class either face to face or online, you will run into 2nd class teachers and mediocore curriculum. On the other hand, there is more and more outstanding curriculum online and amazing interactive tools that can really make learning more engaging for visual learners.
Online education is not for everyone. The most successful students are usual more self-motivated and able to communicate fairly well in writing. At the same time, there are also more and more voice-tools to also allow for synchronous and voice communication online.
When it comes to monitoring, teachers and administrators have the ability to monitor almost every key stroke and minute spent online. All learning management systems have that capability. How that will be reported with vary by organization.
I am undecided as to whether or not tax dollars should be used for this. For me, I would need to see the quality of the course content and the training of the course facilitators before I could say it is worth it. As a parent of a young child, I certainly will be looking for opportunities for online learning for him when he gets older. I like the idea that he can be learning from experts in the field with visual content and images he might not get in the classroom. Did you know that you can access MIT and Standford courses online for free. With that said, how can you call online coursework 2nd class?
V for Vendetta
November 6th, 2009
12:42 pm
I am always open to anything if it is done well. I have taken some online courses and found them to be both rigorous and informative.
Batgirl
November 6th, 2009
1:10 pm
I think this is probably a good option for students who are homebound with illness or injury but should not be publicly funded for those who simply don’t want to go to a traditional school.
As for online degrees, one of my colleagues did an online degree through West Georgia and had to work very hard; however, and she would acknowledge this, she missed out on the interaction with other students. Obviously, one can have a conversation online, but it’s not the same as being a room with others. I think it’s very important to hear others’ opinions, especially at the high school and college level, and not just rely on one’s own family and friends. I don’t think anyone can argue that what we do here is the same as a live conversation.
Also, I think Michael is right to be concerned about quality. Not every school is MIT or Stanford and many are not even West Georgia. Many of them are simply businesses that are after the money of people who can’t get into West Georgia, MIT, Stanford or any other accredited school.
Jim
November 6th, 2009
1:11 pm
As a former educator (10+ years), now in the private sector- Under no circumstances is this a good idea. Diploma mills and lack of accountability and standards are hard enough, not to mention a generation of teachers who think teaching is nothing more than a web site and a power point.
No sense wasting our little tax revenues for this “reach”
Lee Williams
November 6th, 2009
1:19 pm
Has a student going into the Educational Profession, I don’t like the idea of taking everything online. What about your Fine Årts classes? Band, Chorus, Drama, Art, Video, etc… How could you work such a program through a online based classroom? Plus we are talking about cutting back teachers if we go to this program. I think we should just leave it like it is, and maybe have some online classes that students may choose to take while taking tradition courses, that might not could fit it into their graduation requirements during their school term. Its a thought, but a dangerous one at that!
Raul
November 6th, 2009
1:26 pm
What prevents a student from letting or paying someone do his/her work & take tests for them?
Sharee
November 6th, 2009
1:34 pm
I happen to be a learning coach of a Fifth grade Georgia Virtual Academy student.The program exceeds my standards.To all who are concern about accountability,I personally think that the students in Gva has to give more accountability than Traditonal schools.Attendance has to be logged daily,if not you will get a call from someone.They have to take Scantron test periodically to monitor there performance.They attend weekly Elluminate sessions with interactions with state certified teachers and other students.Last but not least for the record check the Crct test scores.You do the math…….If its not your choice it dosen’t mean its not right for someone else.Its time to step out side of the box,There wouldn’t be debates about this if the public schools were up to standards.It’s broken and it needs to be fixed(Something new and fresh).People please don’t be afraid of change……….This is our future where talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maureen Downey
November 6th, 2009
1:39 pm
Sharee, Please take a look at what I just posted. It is an interview with a very unhappy former GVA parent. I would appreciate your response on the blog.
Maureej
Georgia Virtual Academy Learning Coach
November 6th, 2009
1:54 pm
This is our third year in Georgia Virtual Academy, those of you who think this does not work, think again.
Reality 2
November 6th, 2009
1:54 pm
Some online programs are good and others are just trash – just like regular public schools. What bothers me is the band-wagon effect and uncritical way of looking/evaluating the effect. The only way we can examine the effectiveness is by doing a randomized evaluation, but that is probably not possible. So, we have to make the best guesses. What we want to know is for those AP students taking online classes is how well they would have performed if they were enrolled in the traditional courses, and vice versa.
But, this is another major issue that the new state law (Charter School Commission) created. The sooner we repeal the law, the better off we will be.
Gary
November 6th, 2009
1:55 pm
I would think this could only work for those courses that specifically can be taught online. Lee, I think the courses you mention must be taught in a live person environment.
I think there is a lot that can be learned by those colleges/technical schools that do both – offer courses both online and in-classroom. I have done both – general courses online and lab courses in person. The professors were very involved in both and I had access to them at anytime in person, over the phone, or via email.
I think public/private education can eventually go this route, though it doesn’t have to be overnight. I am good with trying it with advanced courses for high school students first, then trickling it down to other courses at the high school level until you have a system in place. Of course not all courses can be done online as Lee has noted above and will require some classroom experiences for students which is ok. The technology is there and you can set it up to where it can work and only those who want to participate will be allowed too.
As for the public funding – I think the current funding structure needs to be changed. We spend so much more money than any other industrialized nation and most of the time achieve lesser results. I think private virtual schools and public schools could partner together and offer choices to parents/students. The entire school environment needs to be changed. Education should be offered for anytime, anywhere – instead of a set calendar and set school times. Right now it is being ran more like a daycare instead of an educational facility. The only schools that are not like that are charters, universities/secondary education centers, and home school. The use of taxpayer dollars should not be a concern when dealing with education. We give dollars and tax breaks to businesses to locate here and we give monies to other organizations for other purposes. What is so wrong with giving money to educational centers? Like these other businesses and organizations you can track achievement as a condition for the money/contract.
It is a situation that we need to discuss and see if the pros outweigh the cons.
Batgirl
November 6th, 2009
1:57 pm
Those of you who claim to be educators should really pay attention to your spelling and grammar. You give fuel to our critics.
HR
November 6th, 2009
2:18 pm
BAD IDEA. The corporate World often does not take applicants with on-line degrees seriously, why would a HS diploma or courses be any different. Agree that change in our educational system MUST take place but this is the wrong direction. Foolish and dangerous.
Sharee
November 6th, 2009
2:21 pm
This is in response to Maureen’s latest post about the parent from Cobb saying that the Georgia Virtual Academy is a waste of time and money.I don’t know all the details in this mom’s case, but the one think I can say is the program works for me but it may not work for someone else.For one thing I understand that some parents may not have the time or patience for this type of schooling.I work a fulltime job also.So I know that time management is very imporant.Its all ways good to find out about something before jumping into it without doing research.Some parents today are so used to taking the easy route of passing on the education responsibility to a teacher or someone else because they just don’t have the time to do it themselves.I take pride in my childs education,I don’t pass it on to another teacher or adult .Yes Gva parents are called Learning Coaches.Im here to coach my child until he gets his education along with Gva’s curriculam.How hard can this be?It dosen’t take a rocket scientist to figure this thing out…………
Maureen Downey
November 6th, 2009
2:25 pm
Thanks Sharee. The question for me is how is GVA sold to parents? Are parents told right up front that they play a main role in the actual instruction? The Cobb mom is clearly a bright woman, but she wanted her child to attend a school online, not to be her child’s teacher with a bit of online assistance. If GVA does, indeed, deem the parents are the teachers, then why would they have to use the GVA materials and books? And what is the state paying for exactly with its per-pupil funding to GVA?
I know it is very different with the Georgia DOE virtual school. I have known kids who have taken AP courses online and it did not involve the parent and had far more regular contact with the online teacher than it seems GVA does.
Maureen
mift
November 6th, 2009
2:33 pm
The research is really clear. There is not difference in outcome(virtual or F2F). Choice is here to stay.
mift
November 6th, 2009
2:35 pm
http://www.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/tech/evidence-based-practices/finalreport.pdf
mift
November 6th, 2009
2:39 pm
Additionally- this is a choice. Nobody is forcing a student to be online. Over 1 million k-12 students take online classes in the US this year.
Middle School maniac
November 6th, 2009
3:17 pm
I know of a school that is actively looking at doing a blended learning environment where online learning management systems are integrated with face to face instruction. THis provides teachers with ways to differentiate for kids, it allows kids a sense of ownership and efficacy in the learning process, it lets parents know exactly what learning is taking place or should be expected of kids in the classroom and it helps provide administrators with a better way to monitor the actual instruction taking place on a day to day basis. It is a marriage of the best of both worlds. It provides rigor, accountability, and customizable learning paths for students. The current funding structure through FTE is based on seat time and not on demonstrated learning because seat time is easy to measure. We should take this as an opportunity to make policy shifts that allow FTE to be based on learning outcomes as measured by multiple means, which would include standardized tests scores and not limit schools ability to earn dollars based on the amount of minutes kids are at a desk. A blended learning school could conceivably have different students in the classrooms at different times to get what they need from face to face. This helps special education and kids in need of intervention to get the help they need from smaller class sizes and it allows those gifted students to get the individualized attention they deserve. The learning management systems make it possible for teachers to manage this and meet the needs of kids. Don’t throw out online learning just because of some bad experiences with it in its infancy or at the college level.
Middle School maniac
November 6th, 2009
3:30 pm
Enter your comments here
Marie
November 6th, 2009
3:39 pm
I’m curious about a few issues and would love to get some feedback from GVA parents. Mainly, I’m curious do you have to supplement your child’s curriculum with private lessons for music/arts/foreign language? It just seems to me like some subjects like foreign language require immersion in a classroom or some type of continuous interaction with a teacher. Do GVA’s just not cover these particular subjects?
Gary
November 6th, 2009
3:40 pm
HR on the contrary…..the business world does take online degrees seriously. The University of Phoenix has one of the country’s largest online degree programs. It is a well respected university and many of my colleagues and our fellow competitors view them as a legitimate school and degree program.
Also as I stated earlier, many colleges – especially the top and respected ones – offer many online courses to their students and have for several years now. Personally I am looking into taking two courses through MIT. My company and I have discussed the two courses and agree it would be beneficial to me and my current position. They are even putting forth half of the cost and I the other half. I know many friends and fellow colleagues in my industry who report having the same respect with online schools and online courses that my company does. It is definitely something to look at.
I would like to know how this is anymore dangerous than making those students who have no desire to be in school attend and disrupt the learning environment of those who are making an effort? You can cheat and foolproof this as much as you can the current system.
uberVU - social comments
November 6th, 2009
4:19 pm
Social comments and analytics for this post…
This post was mentioned on Twitter by FlorenceBernard: Virtual schools, but real tax dollars paying for them. Good idea? http://bit.ly/hcnQB…
Larry
November 6th, 2009
4:57 pm
Let’s see – we could have a for-profit corporation operating a virtual school chartered by a board that is appointed by another appointed board, but is a public school because it gets not only state, but also local tax revenue.
Since burning voter registration cards would be a protest unrelated to this situation, perhaps we could trade them for shares of stock. Before promoting this notion, I’ll check to make sure officers of these corporations are elected by shareholders and not appointed by some entity over which they have no control.
Virtual schools, but real tax dollars paying for them. Good idea … | Wiki Electronica
November 6th, 2009
5:28 pm
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catlady
November 6th, 2009
5:54 pm
Too many problems for public money to fund. If you choose this, pay the bill. Or, you get public money up to the amount you actually pay. For me, my property taxes (school portion) is about 340$ per year–far too little to afford much of any private education.
If you opt for this, don’t return to the public school to clean up your mess. We have our own messes to try to fix without parents moving kids in and out of private/homeschool.
If you are in a bad public school, MAKE NOISE! Don’t just complain to your neighbor, this blog, etc.
flipper
November 6th, 2009
6:13 pm
Uuuuuuh, Sharee…… based on the grammar in your posts, I would highly highly recommend that you let someone teach your child who actually has some basic skills. There is no way that your child is going to learn what s/he needs to know with you as a teacher. Pleeeeaaaase find that child a school somewhere so s/he can learn to communicate.
I’m just sayin’.
Newton Teacher
November 7th, 2009
9:59 am
flipper,
I believe you should have put a “g” with the letters “sayin” if you were trying to spell the word “saying”. Or maybe that was your backwater attempt at sarcastic humor. Heck, maybe it was mine. I’m just saying…
Georgia Teacher and Mother
November 8th, 2009
2:33 am
As an experienced first grade teacher, I know that there are many parents whose educational levels would make it impossible for them to help their child at the high school level. I have had parents who were unable to work with their first grade child. I have also had a parent ask me to help her fill out the free/reduced lunch form.
This being said, I think it could be perfect for many students that are self-motivated or those students that are having a bad school experiences, such as: peer pressure, taunting, bullying, being different, prejudices/reverse prejudices, gangs, or low performing schools and/or teachers.
As a mother, I have one son that breezed through AP classes and the only time he got in trouble at school, was for carrying a travel sized Chess set in his back pack. (He received 3 days ISS in tenth grade. This was his first and only “offense” from Pre-K to 10th.) This seemed very unfair to me as a teacher, when I have students that demand about half of my instructional time addressing behavior. I also have another son who is very different. He is constantly in trouble, because of little things, such as: having ski cap on to hold down his very curly hair, not having a belt on eventhough his pants do not sag down, or because he dresses in the Skateboarder or Gothic style (No make-up.) He actually had a teacher tell him that he was a Satan worshipper and then she called me concerning this! My son will quickly let anyone know that he is a Christian. His clothes are an expression of his individuality. It is a style! It has about as much to do with religion as bell bottoms or sneakers. When I went to the high school to address this with the office, it was made clear that this behavior was not new for this teacher, and they quickly assisted me with changing his courses. This clearly shows that there are teachers that do not belong in our schools and that some schools are not for every child. I only recently became aware of the Georgia Virtual Academy. I offered my son the choice of completing high school online, but since it was his senior year, he opted to tough it out and graduate with his friends. My son, the student who has always had a hard time in school even though he has a high IQ (gifted), didn’t jump at the chance to stay home on a computer. I think he proves that there will not be a giant exoduce of the public schools, but I do think it should be there for those that would benefit from it and yes, it should receive public funding.
Georgia Teacher and Mother
November 8th, 2009
3:57 am
I am a first grade teacher with 12 years of experience and a mother of two sons. My children are night and day in appearance, learning styles, behavior, likes, dislikes, and much more. They both have gifted IQs, but they have had very different educational experiences.
My oldest son never struggled with any work, was spoken highly of by all of his teachers, and was involved in academic teams. He only had one discipline action taken in grades Pre-K – 12th. He received three days ISS in 10th grade for having a travel Chess set in his backpack. Most schools promote Chess because it promotes higher-level thinking and strategy skills. He was very upset by this. In the first place it was a Chess set and he did not have it out. Secondly, this was his first time being written-up and did not receive a warning or even just one day ISS. And lastly, because he sees other students, athletes in particular, who wild in the halls, misbehaving, skipping classes, and so on, but never go to ISS or have their behavior addressed.
My youngest son on the other hand has always disliked school and has had a very hard time in school. He has received F’s on projects because he would not read his presentations or recite the Declaration of Independence in front of the class. Why should a child being shy, affect his grades? Last year, in the 11th grade, he had a teacher tell him that he was a Satan worshipper because of the clothes that he wear, and then she called, told me the same thing, and said we need to have a parent/teacher conference. My son wears Skateboarder and Gothic style clothing, but he is a Christian. His clothes have about as much to do with religion as the bell-bottom pants of the 60’s or the tennis shoes many of us wear today. When I went to the school to address her accusations and behavior to my son, it was made clear by the principal that this was not new for her, and they quickly changed his schedule to move him out of her class.
I decided to offer my son the option to complete school with the Georgia Virtual Academy. Even though he has had a very difficult time in a traditional school setting all of these years, he chose to stay in his school and graduate with his friends. Had I offered it to him years ago, he may have jumped at the chance, but he didn’t want to change this close to the end.
I honestly do not believe there will be a massive exodus from the public schools, but I do think that it is definitely a much needed, long overdue, and WONDERFUL option for those children that have been or are truly miserable in school because of: peer pressure, gangs, bullying, drugs, the nasty rumor mills, clicks, prejudices/reverse prejudices or favoritism shown to a select few by some teachers, misjudged/mistreated based on looks, differences, styles, or learning styles.
And I believe that Online Education should be available for students that need or want it based on the previously mentioned reasons and it SHOULD BE FUNDED BY TAX money because it is our responsibility to educate EVERY CHILD, and every child deserves a chance to have a successful educational experience in a safe NON-threatening environment.
Just as one shoe or job is not suited for everyone, public classroom are not the best answer for everyone. Innovations are almost always met with skepticism or indifference because some people do not see the necessity of it unless it affects them, especially if it will affect their money/taxes. Think outside the box and the WALLET!
Laura
November 8th, 2009
10:50 pm
I think that an online school can be just as effective as a traditional class, but it takes knowledge and research to find a program that works for that individual student. This is not a decision that should be rushed.
http://learn.colostate.edu/blog
Not typical
November 9th, 2009
7:41 pm
Sure, online course participants miss the social interaction of face-to-face instruction. So? That’s not the only source of social interaction, otherwise we’d all stay in school for our entire lives. Straw-man argument there.
“Some parents aren’t qualified to teach their children…” Very true indeed. But nearly 30% of adults in the US have a bachelor’s degree or higher and 10% have a master’s or higher. Most of those don’t have that degree in “elementary education” but instead in a subject that required some serious study. Those parents are far more qualified to help their kids than are the teachers they hire to do it.
Some of you seem to be making the argument that “if some online schools are bad, they are all bad” and that “if some parents are too stupid to teach their kids all parents are too stupid” – neither of those arguments has any validity whatsoever. I have two bachelor’s and three master’s degrees – I don’t need some half-educated public elementary school teacher telling me what works and what doesn’t. I suspect that I’m more than qualified to make my own decisions.
E
November 10th, 2009
2:12 pm
@ Georgia Teacher and Mother:
That generation is growing up, and the style with them. I went out for lunch the other day in my casual clothes, and was confronted in the bathroom by a mother who asked “You’re one of them weird goth things aren’t you?” I was confused, as I merely had on a black t-shirt with a video game graphic, white sneakers, and black cargo pants – hardly extreme in any way. It turns out her son is now dressing in that “weird stuff”. I informed her that I was doing perfectly fine, graduated college, and was employed doing professional work for the government – that I didn’t think the clothes would hurt him any. Maybe you should send that teacher a couple NCIS episodes.
Educator and GVA Parent
November 10th, 2009
4:02 pm
As a 20 yr. GA educator, I see a very real need for GVA. As a parent, I’m in my 3rd year with GVA now with our 7th grader. GVA is very clear in how their program works. The parents are coaches, but they do have the support of teachers. The state funding is used for hiring those teachers, buying the materials(textbooks, science experiment materials, workbooks, etc). I couldn’t believe the quality and depth of materials that we received to help with our son’s education. I will say this too, GVA has vastly improved from it’s first year up until now. Everyone must keep in mind that this is a new concept for K-12 public education and it will be a learning process for them, as well as the parents and all those involved. And it won’t be the right “fit” for everyone.
Janet
November 16th, 2009
9:45 am
Traditional classroom education doesn’t work for everyone, so it’s no surprise that online education (or a combination of online/traditional education) is becoming so popular. Plenty of kids in rural areas in the USA and Australia received fine educations at a distance via radio or tv, so why not online? As long as they have other opportunities to meet kids their own age, it’s not going to be a problem.
The major beneficiaries of this mode of learning at the moment seem to be working adults. Getting a degree from an accredited online university, like AIU Online (http://www.aiuonline.edu), is a convenient way to further one’s education without having to stop work.