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	<title>Comments on: Are Jeb Bush and ACLU talking about same schools?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/</link>
	<description>Your source to discuss and learn about education in Atlanta, Georgia and the nation</description>
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		<title>By: Read: Tuesday Morning Teacher Edition&#160;&#124;&#124;&#160;Dropout Nation</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-18658</link>
		<dc:creator>Read: Tuesday Morning Teacher Edition&#160;&#124;&#124;&#160;Dropout Nation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2830#comment-18658</guid>
		<description>[...] Maureen Downey takes a look at the Florida ACLU suit and former Sunshine State governor Jeb Bush&#8217;s response. Hint: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Maureen Downey takes a look at the Florida ACLU suit and former Sunshine State governor Jeb Bush&#8217;s response. Hint: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: E</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-17336</link>
		<dc:creator>E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2830#comment-17336</guid>
		<description>@Martha  I think the HOPE grant is fantastic... but it really has skewed things here.  If only it were some % of students in some way.  The program has great intentions, but the grades are massively inflated now.  I am rather tired of tutoring &quot;A/B&quot; average seniors who cannot do simple, single digit Algebra.  (ie.  X + 3 = 8, what is X?)  They are so sure that they&#039;re ahead of everything until they try to go to college.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Martha  I think the HOPE grant is fantastic&#8230; but it really has skewed things here.  If only it were some % of students in some way.  The program has great intentions, but the grades are massively inflated now.  I am rather tired of tutoring &#8220;A/B&#8221; average seniors who cannot do simple, single digit Algebra.  (ie.  X + 3 = 8, what is X?)  They are so sure that they&#8217;re ahead of everything until they try to go to college.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-17230</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 07:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2830#comment-17230</guid>
		<description>Hey Coach, don&#039;t sweat the small stuff...spelling &quot;opses&quot; notwithstanding, your message is loud n clear. When you talk with people, kids and adults alike, you have to concentrate so much on picking the right words, facial gestures, etc...people seem to become offended over the most idiotic things, like nose and ear hairs being too long!

When I was playing 7th grade football, back in the Sputnick years, after practice, the coach would prowl the locker room in search of wayward property...socks, jocks, and the like. Prior to dismissing the troops, he would hold aloft each item he found lying about, inquiring &quot;who belongs to this&quot;! When the hapless lad stepped forward to claim his property, the coach would, in ceremonious fashion, pop the kid,on his six, with his paddle (all teachers/coaches had paddles). This small gesture served two purposes: 1) teach the kid to keep track of his stuff, more importantly 2) unify the team. Pretty soon, (I suspect) kids were mis-placing their stuff on purpose just so they could be &quot;initiated&quot;...COACHING SURE HAS CHANGED...thou must be pc at all times! Godspeed, Coach!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Coach, don&#8217;t sweat the small stuff&#8230;spelling &#8220;opses&#8221; notwithstanding, your message is loud n clear. When you talk with people, kids and adults alike, you have to concentrate so much on picking the right words, facial gestures, etc&#8230;people seem to become offended over the most idiotic things, like nose and ear hairs being too long!</p>
<p>When I was playing 7th grade football, back in the Sputnick years, after practice, the coach would prowl the locker room in search of wayward property&#8230;socks, jocks, and the like. Prior to dismissing the troops, he would hold aloft each item he found lying about, inquiring &#8220;who belongs to this&#8221;! When the hapless lad stepped forward to claim his property, the coach would, in ceremonious fashion, pop the kid,on his six, with his paddle (all teachers/coaches had paddles). This small gesture served two purposes: 1) teach the kid to keep track of his stuff, more importantly 2) unify the team. Pretty soon, (I suspect) kids were mis-placing their stuff on purpose just so they could be &#8220;initiated&#8221;&#8230;COACHING SURE HAS CHANGED&#8230;thou must be pc at all times! Godspeed, Coach!</p>
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		<title>By: Been There. . . Done, well. . . just done!</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-17205</link>
		<dc:creator>Been There. . . Done, well. . . just done!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 16:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2830#comment-17205</guid>
		<description>I have to say &quot;Coach&quot;, having once been in the profession, this is what I&#039;ve observed about classes geared towards the attainment of the PLUs necessary for certificate renewal:  while most of us (and I last worked with a group generally psyched to earn additional units) understood why we were there and made the BEST of it, these classes were stretched-out, watered-down, delivered to us - I have to say this, otherwise no one will state it this way - as though we were stupid, inane, helpless students (of any generic group) who NEEDED to be taught as though (often by ALTs, ILTs, state-sponsored &quot;visitors&quot; who needed to over-talk to us as though each extra minute justified their salary  exponentially) our lives depended on it!  These &quot;classes&quot; could have been cut by one-half the amount of time taken...oops!...I&#039;ve let the secret loose!  These &quot;instructors&quot; from whom we took these classes delivered this &quot;instruction&quot; as though they&#039;d seemingly forgotten EVERYTHING they ever knew about being in a classroom!  As for your comments Benny, Clyde, &amp; Martha, I have been in those situations too:  friends of mine still in the profession (at my last location) routinely have stories about the administrator(s) who COMBINE administrative referrals for students&#039; behavior, instead of addressing each INDIVIDUAL instance (most of these TERRIBLY egregious).  Why?!  Any time a student spends in in-school suspension or out-of-school-suspension impacts the attendance indicator for AYP?  Why do I bother to mention this?  This last location receives Title I funding, has numerous behavior problems, and serves a community where a vast majority are underprivileged, divorced parents, blended families, low-SES, and where the parent(s) are struggling to get by, work hours where they aren&#039;t able to attend conferences, and seem a little overwhelmed when it comes to helping their kids with their schoolwork (if they even talk about it at all).  In summary, this location struggles - as do yours, Benny, Clyde, &amp; Martha (to take nothing away from you hard-working classroom warriors) - with how to discipline while SIMULTANEOUSLY trying to learn.  Oh...I forgot...some of the teachers are more interested in themselves &amp; if they&#039;re considered part of the principal&#039;s &quot;in crowd&quot;, where they can get away with such things as skipping duties when our kids change for connections classes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say &#8220;Coach&#8221;, having once been in the profession, this is what I&#8217;ve observed about classes geared towards the attainment of the PLUs necessary for certificate renewal:  while most of us (and I last worked with a group generally psyched to earn additional units) understood why we were there and made the BEST of it, these classes were stretched-out, watered-down, delivered to us &#8211; I have to say this, otherwise no one will state it this way &#8211; as though we were stupid, inane, helpless students (of any generic group) who NEEDED to be taught as though (often by ALTs, ILTs, state-sponsored &#8220;visitors&#8221; who needed to over-talk to us as though each extra minute justified their salary  exponentially) our lives depended on it!  These &#8220;classes&#8221; could have been cut by one-half the amount of time taken&#8230;oops!&#8230;I&#8217;ve let the secret loose!  These &#8220;instructors&#8221; from whom we took these classes delivered this &#8220;instruction&#8221; as though they&#8217;d seemingly forgotten EVERYTHING they ever knew about being in a classroom!  As for your comments Benny, Clyde, &amp; Martha, I have been in those situations too:  friends of mine still in the profession (at my last location) routinely have stories about the administrator(s) who COMBINE administrative referrals for students&#8217; behavior, instead of addressing each INDIVIDUAL instance (most of these TERRIBLY egregious).  Why?!  Any time a student spends in in-school suspension or out-of-school-suspension impacts the attendance indicator for AYP?  Why do I bother to mention this?  This last location receives Title I funding, has numerous behavior problems, and serves a community where a vast majority are underprivileged, divorced parents, blended families, low-SES, and where the parent(s) are struggling to get by, work hours where they aren&#8217;t able to attend conferences, and seem a little overwhelmed when it comes to helping their kids with their schoolwork (if they even talk about it at all).  In summary, this location struggles &#8211; as do yours, Benny, Clyde, &amp; Martha (to take nothing away from you hard-working classroom warriors) &#8211; with how to discipline while SIMULTANEOUSLY trying to learn.  Oh&#8230;I forgot&#8230;some of the teachers are more interested in themselves &amp; if they&#8217;re considered part of the principal&#8217;s &#8220;in crowd&#8221;, where they can get away with such things as skipping duties when our kids change for connections classes.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-17145</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2830#comment-17145</guid>
		<description>Sorry Northview, your Equality vs Equity argument doesn&#039;t cut it.  You&#039;re trying to assign blame to the imaginary concept of &quot;white privilege&quot; because the black student is not performing on the same level as his white counterpart.  What you (and most educators) fail to consider is the role that IQ plays in the education equation.  

Simply put, you cannot expect the child with an 85 IQ to perform on the same level as the child with a 100 IQ.  The current education model throws all children into the same class and teaches them in the same manner.  A better solution would be to group by ability and teach them in a manner and pace that is appropriate for their ability level.

But, the politically correct will not allow this.  The moment that blacks are disproportionately represented in the &quot;slower&quot; class, they will start with the usual cries of racism and there must be another reason besides IQ.

And the only thing they can come up with is the imaginary concept of white privilege.

LOL in that you expected a politician to keep his promises.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Northview, your Equality vs Equity argument doesn&#8217;t cut it.  You&#8217;re trying to assign blame to the imaginary concept of &#8220;white privilege&#8221; because the black student is not performing on the same level as his white counterpart.  What you (and most educators) fail to consider is the role that IQ plays in the education equation.  </p>
<p>Simply put, you cannot expect the child with an 85 IQ to perform on the same level as the child with a 100 IQ.  The current education model throws all children into the same class and teaches them in the same manner.  A better solution would be to group by ability and teach them in a manner and pace that is appropriate for their ability level.</p>
<p>But, the politically correct will not allow this.  The moment that blacks are disproportionately represented in the &#8220;slower&#8221; class, they will start with the usual cries of racism and there must be another reason besides IQ.</p>
<p>And the only thing they can come up with is the imaginary concept of white privilege.</p>
<p>LOL in that you expected a politician to keep his promises&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Buzz G</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-17144</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzz G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2830#comment-17144</guid>
		<description>We need three things to fix our education system:  Vouchers, vouchers and more vouchers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need three things to fix our education system:  Vouchers, vouchers and more vouchers.</p>
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		<title>By: Been there a while</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-17143</link>
		<dc:creator>Been there a while</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2830#comment-17143</guid>
		<description>Amen, Northview Ex !!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen, Northview Ex !!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Northview (Ex) Teacher</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-17121</link>
		<dc:creator>Northview (Ex) Teacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 00:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2830#comment-17121</guid>
		<description>Lee,

It’s hard to understand how anyone seriously would argue that there is no white privilege in America. I remember how the German Jew Walter Benjamin wrote that every cultural artifact is an expression of oppression, and Americans are part of that, as any honest person knows.

The example you give of two children being given exactly the same treatment, with the white one succeeding and the black one dropping out actually proves a point that is a bit different from yours. The idea of absolutely equal treatment is, simply put, not enough to make up for the deleterious effects of white privilege. We should approach the example you provide from a perspective of equity, rather than absolute equality. As you point out, equality of treatment results in minority children failing in many cases, so we should, instead, look to equity, which, in education, means providing conditions for each child to be successful. Much to your disapproval (I imagine), that might well mean giving a black child or a poor child “more” in recognition of the ill effects of white privilege on the education of minority and poor children. Somehow, equity in education doesn’t seem superficially “fair,” but it really is much fairer than the sink or swim model we have embraced. Equity does not mean equality, as white privilege has made equality a chimerical idea for many children. Equity is not a race-based issue, however. White children from the lower classes also suffer from classism, so the same point applies to them.

Of course, a child may still drop out or fail or reject the opportunity to be educated, but at that point it is an individual responsibility. I would argue that conservatives want to place individual responsibility too early in the education process as a way of avoiding our collective responsibility to educate all children, which means actively implementing equity.

I’m feeling actively discouraged about the prospects for meaningful educational reform, and this time I have to criticize the Democrats. As an (ex) educator, I enthusiastically supported Obama and expected that one of his first acts would be to repeal NCLB, which, in my opinion, is destroying teachers and the art of teaching. However, Obama seems to have forgotten his mantra of change in this area, and Arne Duncan, Obama’s Secretary of Education, is pushing more and more testing and research-based practice, which means more and more control over what teachers do. Ironically, those who support privatization of public education have an ally now, and profits are just waiting to be made by the edupreneurs. I’ve always been quick to criticize republicans (especially the loathsome and despicable Ashley Widener), but honesty demands that the Dems take their licks as well. 

Doesn’t anyone care about educating children? I mean really, truly educating them to the point of joy? We’re raising a generation that doesn’t have any sense of intellectual challenge or struggle or the euphoria of everything falling in place. I wish I could say that my decision to leave teaching was a mistake, and it almost drives me to despair to realize that it was not, even more so because both Dems and Repubs are equally at fault, including people I worked for and voted for and eagerly supported. 

This is a painful time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee,</p>
<p>It’s hard to understand how anyone seriously would argue that there is no white privilege in America. I remember how the German Jew Walter Benjamin wrote that every cultural artifact is an expression of oppression, and Americans are part of that, as any honest person knows.</p>
<p>The example you give of two children being given exactly the same treatment, with the white one succeeding and the black one dropping out actually proves a point that is a bit different from yours. The idea of absolutely equal treatment is, simply put, not enough to make up for the deleterious effects of white privilege. We should approach the example you provide from a perspective of equity, rather than absolute equality. As you point out, equality of treatment results in minority children failing in many cases, so we should, instead, look to equity, which, in education, means providing conditions for each child to be successful. Much to your disapproval (I imagine), that might well mean giving a black child or a poor child “more” in recognition of the ill effects of white privilege on the education of minority and poor children. Somehow, equity in education doesn’t seem superficially “fair,” but it really is much fairer than the sink or swim model we have embraced. Equity does not mean equality, as white privilege has made equality a chimerical idea for many children. Equity is not a race-based issue, however. White children from the lower classes also suffer from classism, so the same point applies to them.</p>
<p>Of course, a child may still drop out or fail or reject the opportunity to be educated, but at that point it is an individual responsibility. I would argue that conservatives want to place individual responsibility too early in the education process as a way of avoiding our collective responsibility to educate all children, which means actively implementing equity.</p>
<p>I’m feeling actively discouraged about the prospects for meaningful educational reform, and this time I have to criticize the Democrats. As an (ex) educator, I enthusiastically supported Obama and expected that one of his first acts would be to repeal NCLB, which, in my opinion, is destroying teachers and the art of teaching. However, Obama seems to have forgotten his mantra of change in this area, and Arne Duncan, Obama’s Secretary of Education, is pushing more and more testing and research-based practice, which means more and more control over what teachers do. Ironically, those who support privatization of public education have an ally now, and profits are just waiting to be made by the edupreneurs. I’ve always been quick to criticize republicans (especially the loathsome and despicable Ashley Widener), but honesty demands that the Dems take their licks as well. </p>
<p>Doesn’t anyone care about educating children? I mean really, truly educating them to the point of joy? We’re raising a generation that doesn’t have any sense of intellectual challenge or struggle or the euphoria of everything falling in place. I wish I could say that my decision to leave teaching was a mistake, and it almost drives me to despair to realize that it was not, even more so because both Dems and Repubs are equally at fault, including people I worked for and voted for and eagerly supported. </p>
<p>This is a painful time.</p>
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		<title>By: Maureen Downey</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-17085</link>
		<dc:creator>Maureen Downey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 19:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2830#comment-17085</guid>
		<description>Chris, 
Thanks very much. We are all trying. Maureen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,<br />
Thanks very much. We are all trying. Maureen</p>
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		<title>By: Netti Schreiner-Yantis - ex-teacher</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/11/06/are-jeb-bush-and-aclu-talking-about-same-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-17049</link>
		<dc:creator>Netti Schreiner-Yantis - ex-teacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 15:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2830#comment-17049</guid>
		<description>YES, it is the lack of being able to DISCIPLINE STUDENTS which is ruining the federal education system!  My college training (at Purdue U.) equipped me to teach, and I did so for one year, then decided it was not for me.  I had spent all my time trying to keep order and felt defeated as I really wanted to provide knowledge to my students.  This was way back in 1960&#039;s!  Now I have two daughter-in-laws who are teachers and things are much worse.  I truly believe it is ONLY the long summer vacation that has kept them in the job.   I doubt that very many of today&#039;s teachers are doing so because they actually enjoy it!

While, I do not teach, I work in a job where I go to many middle schools.  I was amazed to see listed in the halls teacher&#039;s names followed by the students in their classes and to find there were less than 15 students per class in most all classes.  Being from a country school in Indiana, I grew up with two classes in each elementary classroom, i.e. 1st &amp; 2nd together, 3d &amp; 4th, 5th &amp; 6th.  These teachers each had about 30 students in their room and they seemed to have no difficultly in controlling them.  If anyone misbehaved the teacher paddled them--I know, as I got a paddling the FIRST day of school!  But, I only needed that one to keep me unpaddled through the rest of my school days.  And I was not bruised, only a little embarrassed.  It didn&#039;t crush me for the rest of my life.  My paddling  also set a great example for the rest of my classmates--all of those who attended our 50th class reunion remembered the incident.  WE NEED TO BRING BACK THE PADDLE--students can be punished with a provision that proper witnesses be present which would  prevent abuse by a teacher or principal.  One source says, &quot;Spare the rod, spoil the child,&quot;  and we are definitely spoiling the lives of our children when we EXPELL them from school--rather than paddle them--because they are disruptive; and if we DON&#039;T EXPELL them, we are spoiling the education of the only students who are trying hard to learn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YES, it is the lack of being able to DISCIPLINE STUDENTS which is ruining the federal education system!  My college training (at Purdue U.) equipped me to teach, and I did so for one year, then decided it was not for me.  I had spent all my time trying to keep order and felt defeated as I really wanted to provide knowledge to my students.  This was way back in 1960&#8217;s!  Now I have two daughter-in-laws who are teachers and things are much worse.  I truly believe it is ONLY the long summer vacation that has kept them in the job.   I doubt that very many of today&#8217;s teachers are doing so because they actually enjoy it!</p>
<p>While, I do not teach, I work in a job where I go to many middle schools.  I was amazed to see listed in the halls teacher&#8217;s names followed by the students in their classes and to find there were less than 15 students per class in most all classes.  Being from a country school in Indiana, I grew up with two classes in each elementary classroom, i.e. 1st &amp; 2nd together, 3d &amp; 4th, 5th &amp; 6th.  These teachers each had about 30 students in their room and they seemed to have no difficultly in controlling them.  If anyone misbehaved the teacher paddled them&#8211;I know, as I got a paddling the FIRST day of school!  But, I only needed that one to keep me unpaddled through the rest of my school days.  And I was not bruised, only a little embarrassed.  It didn&#8217;t crush me for the rest of my life.  My paddling  also set a great example for the rest of my classmates&#8211;all of those who attended our 50th class reunion remembered the incident.  WE NEED TO BRING BACK THE PADDLE&#8211;students can be punished with a provision that proper witnesses be present which would  prevent abuse by a teacher or principal.  One source says, &#8220;Spare the rod, spoil the child,&#8221;  and we are definitely spoiling the lives of our children when we EXPELL them from school&#8211;rather than paddle them&#8211;because they are disruptive; and if we DON&#8217;T EXPELL them, we are spoiling the education of the only students who are trying hard to learn.</p>
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