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	<title>Comments on: Report: Use student performance to rate teachers</title>
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	<description>Your source to discuss and learn about education in Atlanta, Georgia and the nation</description>
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		<title>By: Darcy Moody</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/10/26/report-use-student-performance-to-rate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-16129</link>
		<dc:creator>Darcy Moody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2515#comment-16129</guid>
		<description>I teach in Arizona and many of the issues discussed above apply.  I was involved with the research and discussion behind the report that Hope Street Group presented. I&#039;d encourage anyone involved in this discussion to go to  www.hopestreetgroup.org and join in the discussion there and read the full report.  I recognize all of the complications and drawbacks of linking student achievement as measured on standardized tests to teacher performance.  The report that was put out recommends a system that includes multiple and varied measures for gauging student growth.  This would provide a more comprehensive view of the student and increase the validity of the evaluation system as well.  Yes, this would be difficult to do, but it needs to happen for both the students&#039; sake and ours.  The general consensus out there seems to be that teachers do not want to be accountable and I just don&#039;t think that&#039;s the case.  Why would we spend hours and hours looking not just at &quot;data&quot; from test scores, but at student work trying to figure out what growth the students are showing and how we can differentiate to meet their needs?  I think we know what effective teaching is, take our profession very seriously, and want to move our students and continuously improve our skills.

This report wasn&#039;t recommending basing everything on standardized test scores.  It stated, &quot;Objective measures of student achievement gains must be a major component of teacher evaluation&quot; and listed a number of specific measures to pull from.  These included student work (including performance criteria and evidence of student growth), teacher-generated information about student goals and growth, formative assessments, objective performance-based assessments, assessments of affective engagement and self-efficacy.  Student growth needs to be a part of the evaluation process, I think everyone agrees on that... if we are teaching well students show growth.  But...measuring this is complicated.  Again, if you log onto the site there is a lot of meaningful discussion going on about this issue.

The measures listed are difficult to quantify and extremely complicated, but there is research out there and it can be done.  Shouldn&#039;t we start looking seriously at how to do this rather than not engaging in the discussion and leaving it to those outside of the profession?  If teachers aren&#039;t a part of the process (another one of the recommendations made is that involving teachers and teacher groups in the design of an eval system is necessary) those designing an evaluation will default to the easiest and least complicated option of simply pulling test scores. 

But student achievement was only one of the components discussed in the recommendations.  Again, I would encourage reading the full report and even more importantly all of the discussion that led up to it and add all of the thoughtful discussion going on in this blog to the site.  Much of what is being discussed here is included in the report (the need for thoughtful feedback at the classroom level through evaluations implemented by skilled and knowledgeable evaluators for instance).  Under recommendation 2 and 3 these ideas are discussed at length beginning with the statement that... Teacher evaluations cannot rely on measures of student learning outcomes alone (even the multiple and varied measures included in recommendation 1).  Teachers need feedback during the school year on their daily practice, and assessments of student achievement are insufficient to capture all of the work, leadership, and skill that a teacher needs to be effective.  I think all teachers agree that we need thoughtful, calibrated measures at the student and classroom level and that standards of classroom practice need to be clearly defined for those being evaluated and those doing the evaluating.  How many of us have been evaluated by an administrator unfamiliar with our grade level or content area and unknowledgeable about classroom practice...or too busy to do much more than mark &quot;dressed appropriately&quot; and &quot;effective classroom management demonstrated?&quot; 

So...check out the site and the report and add to the discussion.  Through Race to the Top etc a teacher evaluation system is coming.  I&#039;d really like to see it be thoughtful, comprehensive, logical, and be generated by those in the profession who understand just how complicated and critical it is.
www.hopestreetgroup.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I teach in Arizona and many of the issues discussed above apply.  I was involved with the research and discussion behind the report that Hope Street Group presented. I&#8217;d encourage anyone involved in this discussion to go to  <a href="http://www.hopestreetgroup.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.hopestreetgroup.org</a> and join in the discussion there and read the full report.  I recognize all of the complications and drawbacks of linking student achievement as measured on standardized tests to teacher performance.  The report that was put out recommends a system that includes multiple and varied measures for gauging student growth.  This would provide a more comprehensive view of the student and increase the validity of the evaluation system as well.  Yes, this would be difficult to do, but it needs to happen for both the students&#8217; sake and ours.  The general consensus out there seems to be that teachers do not want to be accountable and I just don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the case.  Why would we spend hours and hours looking not just at &#8220;data&#8221; from test scores, but at student work trying to figure out what growth the students are showing and how we can differentiate to meet their needs?  I think we know what effective teaching is, take our profession very seriously, and want to move our students and continuously improve our skills.</p>
<p>This report wasn&#8217;t recommending basing everything on standardized test scores.  It stated, &#8220;Objective measures of student achievement gains must be a major component of teacher evaluation&#8221; and listed a number of specific measures to pull from.  These included student work (including performance criteria and evidence of student growth), teacher-generated information about student goals and growth, formative assessments, objective performance-based assessments, assessments of affective engagement and self-efficacy.  Student growth needs to be a part of the evaluation process, I think everyone agrees on that&#8230; if we are teaching well students show growth.  But&#8230;measuring this is complicated.  Again, if you log onto the site there is a lot of meaningful discussion going on about this issue.</p>
<p>The measures listed are difficult to quantify and extremely complicated, but there is research out there and it can be done.  Shouldn&#8217;t we start looking seriously at how to do this rather than not engaging in the discussion and leaving it to those outside of the profession?  If teachers aren&#8217;t a part of the process (another one of the recommendations made is that involving teachers and teacher groups in the design of an eval system is necessary) those designing an evaluation will default to the easiest and least complicated option of simply pulling test scores. </p>
<p>But student achievement was only one of the components discussed in the recommendations.  Again, I would encourage reading the full report and even more importantly all of the discussion that led up to it and add all of the thoughtful discussion going on in this blog to the site.  Much of what is being discussed here is included in the report (the need for thoughtful feedback at the classroom level through evaluations implemented by skilled and knowledgeable evaluators for instance).  Under recommendation 2 and 3 these ideas are discussed at length beginning with the statement that&#8230; Teacher evaluations cannot rely on measures of student learning outcomes alone (even the multiple and varied measures included in recommendation 1).  Teachers need feedback during the school year on their daily practice, and assessments of student achievement are insufficient to capture all of the work, leadership, and skill that a teacher needs to be effective.  I think all teachers agree that we need thoughtful, calibrated measures at the student and classroom level and that standards of classroom practice need to be clearly defined for those being evaluated and those doing the evaluating.  How many of us have been evaluated by an administrator unfamiliar with our grade level or content area and unknowledgeable about classroom practice&#8230;or too busy to do much more than mark &#8220;dressed appropriately&#8221; and &#8220;effective classroom management demonstrated?&#8221; </p>
<p>So&#8230;check out the site and the report and add to the discussion.  Through Race to the Top etc a teacher evaluation system is coming.  I&#8217;d really like to see it be thoughtful, comprehensive, logical, and be generated by those in the profession who understand just how complicated and critical it is.<br />
<a href="http://www.hopestreetgroup.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.hopestreetgroup.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: Darcy Moody</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/10/26/report-use-student-performance-to-rate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-16128</link>
		<dc:creator>Darcy Moody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2515#comment-16128</guid>
		<description>I teach in Arizona and many of the issues discussed above apply.  I was involved with the research and discussion behind the report that Hope Street Group presented. I&#039;d encourage anyone involved in this discussion to go to  www.hopestreetgroup.org and join in the discussion there and read the full report.  I recognize all of the complications and drawbacks of linking student achievement as measured on standardized tests to teacher performance.  The report that was put out recommends a system that includes multiple and varied measures for gauging student growth.  This would provide a more comprehensive view of the student and increase the validity of the evaluation system as well.  Yes, this would be difficult to do, but it needs to happen for both the students&#039; sake and ours.  The general consensus out there seems to be that teachers do not want to be accountable and I just don&#039;t think that&#039;s the case.  Why would we spend hours and hours looking not just at &quot;data&quot; from test scores, but at student work trying to figure out what growth the students are showing and how we can differentiate to meet their needs?  I think we know what effective teaching is, take our profession very seriously, and want to move our students and continuously improve our skills.

This report wasn&#039;t recommending basing everything on standardized test scores.  It stated, &quot;Objective measures of student achievement gains must be a major component of teacher evaluation&quot; and listed a number of specific measures to pull from.  These included student work (including performance criteria and evidence of student growth), teacher-generated information about student goals and growth, formative assessments, objective performance-based assessments, assessments of affective engagement and self-efficacy.  Student growth needs to be a part of the evaluation process, I think everyone agrees on that... if we are teaching well students show growth.  But...measuring this is complicated.  Again, if you log onto the site there is a lot of meaningful discussion going on about this issue.

The measures listed are difficult to quantify and extremely complicated, but there is research out there and it can be done.  Shouldn&#039;t we start looking seriously at how to do this rather than not engaging in the discussion and leaving it to those outside of the profession?  If teachers aren&#039;t a part of the process (another one of the recommendations made is that involving teachers and teacher groups in the design of an eval system is necessary) those designing an evaluation will default to the easiest and least complicated option of simply pulling test scores. 

But student achievement was only one of the components discussed in the recommendations.  Again, I would encourage reading the full report and even more importantly all of the discussion that led up to it and add all of the thoughtful discussion going on in this blog to the site.  Much of what is being discussed here is included in the report (the need for thoughtful feedback at the classroom level through evaluations implemented by skilled and knowledgeable evaluators for instance).  Under recommendation 2 and 3 these ideas are discussed at length beginning with the statement that... Teacher evaluations cannot rely on measures of student learning outcomes alone (even the multiple and varied measures included in recommendation 1).  Teachers need feedback during the school year on their daily practice, and assessments of student achievement are insufficient to capture all of the work, leadership, and skill that a teacher needs to be effective.  I think all teachers agree that we need thoughtful, calibrated measures at the student and classroom level and that standards of classroom practice need to be clearly defined for those being evaluated and those doing the evaluating.  How many of us have been evaluated by an administrator unfamiliar with our grade level or content area and unknowledgeable about classroom practice...or too busy to do much more than mark &quot;dressed appropriately&quot; and &quot;effective classroom management demonstrated?&quot; 

So...check out the site and the report and add to the discussion.  Through Race to the Top etc a teacher evaluation system is coming.  I&#039;d really like to see it be thoughtful, comprehensive, logical, and be generated by those in the profession who understand just how complicated and critical it is.  www.hopestreetgroup.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I teach in Arizona and many of the issues discussed above apply.  I was involved with the research and discussion behind the report that Hope Street Group presented. I&#8217;d encourage anyone involved in this discussion to go to  <a href="http://www.hopestreetgroup.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.hopestreetgroup.org</a> and join in the discussion there and read the full report.  I recognize all of the complications and drawbacks of linking student achievement as measured on standardized tests to teacher performance.  The report that was put out recommends a system that includes multiple and varied measures for gauging student growth.  This would provide a more comprehensive view of the student and increase the validity of the evaluation system as well.  Yes, this would be difficult to do, but it needs to happen for both the students&#8217; sake and ours.  The general consensus out there seems to be that teachers do not want to be accountable and I just don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the case.  Why would we spend hours and hours looking not just at &#8220;data&#8221; from test scores, but at student work trying to figure out what growth the students are showing and how we can differentiate to meet their needs?  I think we know what effective teaching is, take our profession very seriously, and want to move our students and continuously improve our skills.</p>
<p>This report wasn&#8217;t recommending basing everything on standardized test scores.  It stated, &#8220;Objective measures of student achievement gains must be a major component of teacher evaluation&#8221; and listed a number of specific measures to pull from.  These included student work (including performance criteria and evidence of student growth), teacher-generated information about student goals and growth, formative assessments, objective performance-based assessments, assessments of affective engagement and self-efficacy.  Student growth needs to be a part of the evaluation process, I think everyone agrees on that&#8230; if we are teaching well students show growth.  But&#8230;measuring this is complicated.  Again, if you log onto the site there is a lot of meaningful discussion going on about this issue.</p>
<p>The measures listed are difficult to quantify and extremely complicated, but there is research out there and it can be done.  Shouldn&#8217;t we start looking seriously at how to do this rather than not engaging in the discussion and leaving it to those outside of the profession?  If teachers aren&#8217;t a part of the process (another one of the recommendations made is that involving teachers and teacher groups in the design of an eval system is necessary) those designing an evaluation will default to the easiest and least complicated option of simply pulling test scores. </p>
<p>But student achievement was only one of the components discussed in the recommendations.  Again, I would encourage reading the full report and even more importantly all of the discussion that led up to it and add all of the thoughtful discussion going on in this blog to the site.  Much of what is being discussed here is included in the report (the need for thoughtful feedback at the classroom level through evaluations implemented by skilled and knowledgeable evaluators for instance).  Under recommendation 2 and 3 these ideas are discussed at length beginning with the statement that&#8230; Teacher evaluations cannot rely on measures of student learning outcomes alone (even the multiple and varied measures included in recommendation 1).  Teachers need feedback during the school year on their daily practice, and assessments of student achievement are insufficient to capture all of the work, leadership, and skill that a teacher needs to be effective.  I think all teachers agree that we need thoughtful, calibrated measures at the student and classroom level and that standards of classroom practice need to be clearly defined for those being evaluated and those doing the evaluating.  How many of us have been evaluated by an administrator unfamiliar with our grade level or content area and unknowledgeable about classroom practice&#8230;or too busy to do much more than mark &#8220;dressed appropriately&#8221; and &#8220;effective classroom management demonstrated?&#8221; </p>
<p>So&#8230;check out the site and the report and add to the discussion.  Through Race to the Top etc a teacher evaluation system is coming.  I&#8217;d really like to see it be thoughtful, comprehensive, logical, and be generated by those in the profession who understand just how complicated and critical it is.  <a href="http://www.hopestreetgroup.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.hopestreetgroup.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: brumley70</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/10/26/report-use-student-performance-to-rate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-15991</link>
		<dc:creator>brumley70</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2515#comment-15991</guid>
		<description>I teach in a very impoverished area of KY.  I would LOVE to see success of a student tied to the welfare checks of parents.  I can teach, use all the theory in the world, curriculum map myself to death, go to all of the PD that I can go to, but if a child and their parents do not view education as a priority, I cannot change that.  Have parents get their welfare checks cut down according to the success of their child and you would see parents jumping to help their children succeed. They would beg us as teachers to help and even possibily see all the work we as teachers put in to see their child succeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I teach in a very impoverished area of KY.  I would LOVE to see success of a student tied to the welfare checks of parents.  I can teach, use all the theory in the world, curriculum map myself to death, go to all of the PD that I can go to, but if a child and their parents do not view education as a priority, I cannot change that.  Have parents get their welfare checks cut down according to the success of their child and you would see parents jumping to help their children succeed. They would beg us as teachers to help and even possibily see all the work we as teachers put in to see their child succeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Twenty Year Veteran</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/10/26/report-use-student-performance-to-rate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-15957</link>
		<dc:creator>Twenty Year Veteran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2515#comment-15957</guid>
		<description>Well, What would Mr. Ott Say?, since you have all the answers, when are you coming into the classroom?  Since you know best what we should do and how we should be evaluated, come on down!  Show us all how it should be done!  I just love experts who&#039;ve never taught but still know best how we should do our jobs, don&#039;t ya&#039;ll??  Reminds me of the old saying:  just because I have an [anus] doesn&#039;t make me a proctologist...just because you went to school doesn&#039;t make you an educator!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, What would Mr. Ott Say?, since you have all the answers, when are you coming into the classroom?  Since you know best what we should do and how we should be evaluated, come on down!  Show us all how it should be done!  I just love experts who&#8217;ve never taught but still know best how we should do our jobs, don&#8217;t ya&#8217;ll??  Reminds me of the old saying:  just because I have an [anus] doesn&#8217;t make me a proctologist&#8230;just because you went to school doesn&#8217;t make you an educator!</p>
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		<title>By: Maureen Downey</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/10/26/report-use-student-performance-to-rate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-15820</link>
		<dc:creator>Maureen Downey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2515#comment-15820</guid>
		<description>Who ran the AJC,  I can tell you that reporters/bloggers are held accountable for what can be measured directly, including hits on the Web. We all have access to a service that measures online readership day by day. 
To your specific comment:  The decline in print readers is more than offset by the massive surge in online readership, but newspapers have yet to figure out how to turn the growth in online readership into a profit-making enterprise. 
If readership counts were based on AJC.com traffic, we&#039;d all have raises this year. 
Maureen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who ran the AJC,  I can tell you that reporters/bloggers are held accountable for what can be measured directly, including hits on the Web. We all have access to a service that measures online readership day by day.<br />
To your specific comment:  The decline in print readers is more than offset by the massive surge in online readership, but newspapers have yet to figure out how to turn the growth in online readership into a profit-making enterprise.<br />
If readership counts were based on AJC.com traffic, we&#8217;d all have raises this year.<br />
Maureen</p>
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		<title>By: Rural Education</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/10/26/report-use-student-performance-to-rate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-15817</link>
		<dc:creator>Rural Education</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:37:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2515#comment-15817</guid>
		<description>Really should be simple.  Give a pre-test sometime during the first week and then give the exact test at the end of the year.  Since we are already being trained to teach to the test this seems to be fair.  The thought of letting adminstrators being responsible for some sort of pay evaluation is scary.  You only need three years of classrooom experience to become an adminstrator in Ga. and we see how well that has worked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really should be simple.  Give a pre-test sometime during the first week and then give the exact test at the end of the year.  Since we are already being trained to teach to the test this seems to be fair.  The thought of letting adminstrators being responsible for some sort of pay evaluation is scary.  You only need three years of classrooom experience to become an adminstrator in Ga. and we see how well that has worked.</p>
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		<title>By: Who ran the AJC into the ground?</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/10/26/report-use-student-performance-to-rate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-15814</link>
		<dc:creator>Who ran the AJC into the ground?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2515#comment-15814</guid>
		<description>By the logic of this report, shouldn&#039;t newspaper editors and journalists be accountable for declines in circulation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the logic of this report, shouldn&#8217;t newspaper editors and journalists be accountable for declines in circulation?</p>
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		<title>By: What Would Mr. Ott Say?</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/10/26/report-use-student-performance-to-rate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-15806</link>
		<dc:creator>What Would Mr. Ott Say?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2515#comment-15806</guid>
		<description>Well, all you teachers are just incredibly creative with coming up excuses.  If teachers can&#039;t be evaluated based on students&#039; achievement, how else should they be evaluated?  How they dress?  How much they weigh?  How loud they can scream?  If you can&#039;t improve students&#039; achievement from the beginning of the year to the end of the year, you don&#039;t deserve to be in classrooms.  Get out!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, all you teachers are just incredibly creative with coming up excuses.  If teachers can&#8217;t be evaluated based on students&#8217; achievement, how else should they be evaluated?  How they dress?  How much they weigh?  How loud they can scream?  If you can&#8217;t improve students&#8217; achievement from the beginning of the year to the end of the year, you don&#8217;t deserve to be in classrooms.  Get out!!!</p>
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		<title>By: MathMan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/10/26/report-use-student-performance-to-rate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-15799</link>
		<dc:creator>MathMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2515#comment-15799</guid>
		<description>Mr. Ott and Warrior Woman obviously don&#039;t know the story about the difference between public education and how Blue Bell Blueberry Ice Cream is made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Ott and Warrior Woman obviously don&#8217;t know the story about the difference between public education and how Blue Bell Blueberry Ice Cream is made.</p>
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		<title>By: SET</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/10/26/report-use-student-performance-to-rate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-15791</link>
		<dc:creator>SET</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 02:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=2515#comment-15791</guid>
		<description>What a stupid notion.

Any attempt to rate teachers on student performance will result in a direct negative premium in being assigned Negro (love that word!) students.  One can beat around the bush about just trying to avoid dull students in favor of bright ones, but to speak plainly as I tend to do - you&#039;d want Jewish kids in your assigned classrooms, not blacks.

Because all people are not created equal. Some people tend to - in groups - test higher.

It&#039;s hard enough to get teachers willing to work with black students as it is.

So there&#039;s your pay them by performance issue.  Who in their right mind would work under such nonsense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a stupid notion.</p>
<p>Any attempt to rate teachers on student performance will result in a direct negative premium in being assigned Negro (love that word!) students.  One can beat around the bush about just trying to avoid dull students in favor of bright ones, but to speak plainly as I tend to do &#8211; you&#8217;d want Jewish kids in your assigned classrooms, not blacks.</p>
<p>Because all people are not created equal. Some people tend to &#8211; in groups &#8211; test higher.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard enough to get teachers willing to work with black students as it is.</p>
<p>So there&#8217;s your pay them by performance issue.  Who in their right mind would work under such nonsense?</p>
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