The Bible belt: A stranglehold on schoolchildren?
I still don’t get why there are so many issues with the church-state divide in Georgia schools. A few weeks ago, we had the Jesus in the bleachers issue with the north Georgia cheerleaders carrying billboard-sized Bible verses onto the football field.
Now, we have Bibles being handed out at an Oglethorpe County elementary school. A parent complained that fifth-grade students were told at the end of the school day they could pick up the pocket-sized Bibles from a table set up by two members of an evangelical group.
The parent called it “an egregious thing of crossing the line of church and state.”School principal Kim Lord said the Bible giveaway was Ok, saying it was “as if they were picking up a pamphlet for parks and rec or any other activity.”
Debra Seagraves, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Georgia, told the Associated Press that the school was not doing anything illegal unless it denied the same privilege to other religious groups.
I still think schools should avoid these issues. Because I don’t think parents would be happy if Branch Davidians or other less-than-mainstream religious groups and cult wanted to hand out their literature in the schools.
What do you think?
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60 comments Add your comment
Vince
October 15th, 2009
10:24 am
The school did nothing wrong…unless they made an announcement promoting the giveaway. However, now they must afford the same opportunity for Wiccans, satan worshippers, etc.
Kenny
October 15th, 2009
10:25 am
I think just that… The problem in Georgia is not that they pass out bibles in school. The problem is that if ANY other religion did the same, there’d be civil war! Jewish, Muslim, and Wiccan groups take the higher ground by not pushing their beliefs on young impressionable minds. Any parent will tell you that the more you get on the kid about cleaning his room, the less room cleaning will be accomplished. All it takes in these schools is for the “cool” kids to laugh at one kid carrying a Bible. Then soon, every kid in the school wont want anything to do with one. The evangelicals are cutting their own throat. They push to have religion taught in school, but what happens when the school picks a particular Christian Schism (which to date there are over 30,000 different versions of Christianity) in which to teach, and little Johnny comes home saying Jesus said one thing when Mom and Dad know darn well that Jesus didn’t. EXPLOSION! The bottom line is this, they need to stop the push, lest they self destruct. I think even most non-Christians would be less agitated, if it weren’t an elementary school. And you ALL know darn well, if those books were free Korans, or free Tanachs, how this story would differ.
jim d
October 15th, 2009
10:25 am
I concur, but watching this one light up should be fun.
jconservative
October 15th, 2009
10:31 am
I agree the school did nothing wrong on the surface – can Muslims hand out the Quran? If so, no problem. If not, problem.
Joy in Teaching
October 15th, 2009
10:34 am
When I was in elementary school in Georgia in the 70s, it was a regular treat to have what we called “The Bible Lady” who would come and tell stories using a flannel board. Most of her stories were just stories, but she always had at least 1 Biblically based story. But it was just that: a story. She didn’t preach nor did she try to convert us. Didn’t hurt any of us a bit. Oh yes…and the Gideons would sometimes drop by with those red covered New Testaments. Students could either take one or not: their choice.
I was sure that that sort of thing stopped in the 70s…back when we didn’t have students out of control in schools, when there was an attempt at discipline, and before school violence became a regular occurance.
Marie
October 15th, 2009
10:47 am
Why school officials don’t just have some more common sense and ban all religious groups from handing out religious material is beyond me. This invites non-academic related lawsuits and distractions that a school shouldn’t be dealing with.
Jeff
October 15th, 2009
11:14 am
I’m with the general consensus so far. It was after school, it was voluntary, and presumably other groups would be allowed to make the same offer with their choice of book. As long as those three are maintained, I see no problem here.
TW
October 15th, 2009
11:17 am
Being that the school has to deal with this non-academic issue, we will be lowering their test score bar, right?
Meme
October 15th, 2009
11:35 am
I don’t think that the school did anything wrong. No one forced the child to pick up the Bible. Are the parents thinking lawsuit = money!
Maureen's accountability metric
October 15th, 2009
11:46 am
Doesn’t it just figure that the principal’s name would be Kim Lord?
What I would give to see the look on Kim Lord’s face when a Wiccan group approaches her to pass out literature and tells her to think of it “as if they were picking up a pamphlet for parks and rec or any other activity.”
Maybe the Wiccans could get a snapshot of her look, and sell it on Ebay to benefit the Ivy Preparatory Acadamy.
TW
October 15th, 2009
11:57 am
‘Maybe the Wiccans could get a snapshot of her look, and sell it on Ebay to benefit the Ivy Preparatory Acadamy.’
lmao…thanks.
Shannana
October 15th, 2009
12:51 pm
My 8th grader came home from a Cobb County school with an orange pocket-sized Guideon New Testament Bible. He told me he got it from one of his friends who, in turn, got it from a gentleman who was handing them out at school. I didn’t believe that the friend actually got it from someone on school grounds but I guess it was true. So – it’s not just in Oglethorpe County. By the way, my son was glad to get it.
Jessica
October 15th, 2009
12:58 pm
One idea would be for schools to invite community groups (clubs, sports groups, religious organizations) to set up a little expo one evening each year, maybe the same night as orientation. That way, churches and other groups have an opportunity to share information and materials with students and their parents. If you consider Bibles objectionable (or if your child already has one at home), you can just decline the offer.
DAG
October 15th, 2009
1:43 pm
Someone should try to hand out LaVey Satanism’s “Book of Satan”… or maybe Wiccan’s “Book of Shadows”… then it’d be crystal clear what’s going on.
DeKalb Conservative
October 15th, 2009
1:43 pm
Moving to Georgia from MA is like going back in time. There are schools in MA that don’t allow Christmas carols, or even Halloween to be celebrated (Wiccans protested). I feel that is extreme and over the top, many people will agree.
That said there really is no place for schools to be handing out any religious material. Stories like this, especially when it hits the national media plays into Georgia being a bunch of dumb rednecks.
DeKalb Conservative
October 15th, 2009
1:44 pm
Until a school community is leading the national stage is test schools and academics, get off the moral high ground. Its moments like this that make me question what goes on in the classroom, particular if in world history the teacher is telling the students that Alexander the Great was able to conquer the known world thousands of years ago after a dramatic battle with the dinosaurs.
Parent in Midtown
October 15th, 2009
2:06 pm
Can we talk about the REAL problem here, which is that Kim Lord thinks handing out bibles is equivalent to handing out parks and rec brochures? This person has no business being a principal.
Consider the decision-making process Lord must have gone through: hmmm, these folks want to hand out bibles at my school. Yeah, well, I guess that probably won’t offend anybody because I’m not excluding other faiths and because most folks here in GA are Christians anyway–they’ll probably go along with and applaud my decision. What could possibly be the downside?
Lord, meet downside. If you survive this, it’ll only be because you’re lucky instead of smart. And you’ll only get lucky if this story doesn’t go national. If it does, you’ll be sacrificed on the altar of public relations, and intelligent, rational parents will shed no tears for you. Because it is not the public schools’ prerogative to play any role–any role whatever–in the religious life of children. That’s explicitly usurping the authority of parents, and it cannot be tolerated.
When you give permission to a group to hand out materials in your school, you ARE passing judgment on the content of their materials. Your approval is your de facto endorsement, because the buck stops with you.
I think Lord should be suspended with pay for 5 days and forced to take a course in what it means to have a secular public education system.
Thankful
October 15th, 2009
2:06 pm
I am another one who moved to GA from MA and do agree- it is like going back in time. I would not be surprised if other religions now start lining up for their turn to hand out their literature to students and if this happens, my guess is they will not be allowed to do so. While many feel, there is no issue with this, it is simply not appropriate at school. We do have separation of church and state in this country for a reason. I also don’t want our public schools to be such targets of solicitation. Vendor fairs are good places for solicitation and marketing and I would hate for school grounds to become regular locations where vendors of all types set up shop on a regular basis. The principal did not think this through.
Lord did not break any kind of law
October 15th, 2009
3:33 pm
The principal did exactly what she should have done: she made the group pass out the literature after school and outside. Schools are part of the community.
Now, what she has done is open up the school to other groups to do the same, whcih will be a scheduling nightmare: Muslims could get Mondays, Christians can come on Tuesdays; since Jews don’t do Wednesday night service, we can let them have Wednesdays. The parks are rec and other non-religious can have Thursdays, and other random religious groups can have Fridays.
However, the principal broke no law in doing what she did. She simply made her life a little more complicated.
Ignatius
October 15th, 2009
4:01 pm
Yeah we don’t want them to actually learn what morals are and obstain from pre marital sex. Oh heavens no we cannot have that. You liberal hypocrites have the nerve to sware on a Bible in a court of law and then teach the lies of evolution in schools, The Declartion of Independence states “endowed by our creator”. If you don’t like it tough! …..all exits are open.
V for Vendetta
October 15th, 2009
4:03 pm
I think a lot of you are missing the big picture: Why should any organization be allowed to pass out non-school-related material on school grounds? Flyers for tutors? Sure. Flyers for educational opportunities and/or scholarships? Why not. Flyers for Parks and Rec? Um . . . Bibles? He11 no!
Remember when schools were in the business of educating children?
I agree with many posters’ comments about the other religions. I refuse to believe that Oglethorpe County is awash in religious tolerance and good will. I’m sure, had this been a Koran or even a Torah, there would be quite a different reaction from the school, the community, and the majority of the posters on this blog. Had it been anything pagan in nature, we’d be facing a full scale evangelical hurricane.
Perhaps they should be passing out copies of Darwin’s Origin of Species instead.
V for Vendetta
October 15th, 2009
4:05 pm
Ignatius,
You’re right of course. Morals are impossible without religion. That’s why all atheists are miserable psychopaths who eat babies and kill kittens. It’s all so clear now.
That evolution thing really didn’t work out either, did it? Ever heard of Lucy? Ever heard of Ardi?
I thought not.
TW
October 15th, 2009
4:36 pm
“You liberal hypocrites have the nerve to sware on a Bible in a court of law and then teach the lies of evolution in schools”
Yeah, that’s a lot worse than GOP homosexual games with underage boys…or adulterous homosexual prostitution in public airport bathrooms….
Oh, and lets not forget eight years worth of ‘w’ using the Bible for toilet paper…or that they use ‘liberal’ as an insult, despite The Sermon on the Mount…
Go Raiders!
DeKalb Conservative
October 15th, 2009
4:46 pm
@ Ignatius
If in 2009 with all of today’s access to technology you feel that evolution is a lie, your opinion is completely irrelevant.
The Declaration of Independence is just that, a declaration. It is not a law, it is a document of intent to free the colonies from England. To promote the idea that ‘all exits are open’ if you don’t like the “endowed by our creator” statement in the DoI then you are no better than England in the 1600’s and its oppressive views on recognizing only certain religions.
Learning morals can be taught without distributing bibles. Pre marital sex can be deterred in non-religious ways such as:
1. promote marriages of 15 and 16 year olds (used to be done that way)
2. show the kids pictures of STDs on genitals
3. show girls the excitement of being ‘fat’ in their teen years
4. tell kids candidly what having a child at a young age will mean to their potential in life as adults (opportunities that likely won’t exist, etc)
DeKalb Conservative
October 15th, 2009
4:53 pm
@ Lord did not break any kind of law
Your logic sucks. You can’t give every group a day of the week, unless you expand it to a monthly basis. What day do the following groups get:
- Buddhist
- Hindu
- Wicca
- atheists
- pagans
What gives the principal the moral authority to decide that the bible is a proper handout? What’s stopping Muslims from demanding to distribute a “beauty of Jihad and death to Christians” pamphlet?
Certain Muslim groups could say their religion is the only moral ground and way into heaven. Using your logic, that literature would have to be allowed if distributed after school and outside.
Scratching my head
October 15th, 2009
5:21 pm
From these comments, it’s easy to understand why so many are teaching their children at home.
Hope
October 15th, 2009
5:57 pm
An announcement WAS made promoting the giveaway.
What?
October 15th, 2009
6:11 pm
Your kidding me right? Ignatius…Wow. How about if parents and adults teach morals and values and what happens when kids have kids….Gee, there’s a concept. How about if you take responsibilty for educating the young people you are responsible for right from wrong and stop displacing your responsibility in the name of religion. Get a grip.
Donna S
October 15th, 2009
6:30 pm
Even when you move to a county like Cobb with a decent reputation for good schools, you still have to put up with board members, administrators who are as backward as the rest of the state. We apparently pay millions to a “connected” school board attorney because the board members, etc make bad decisions based on their own ignorant religious based agendas.
Hugo
October 15th, 2009
10:39 pm
God only wrote one Bible. I suppose He could have written more if he had had the spare time, but you know how it is.
Robynn
October 15th, 2009
11:58 pm
To the commenter who assumes that “liberals” swear in the Bible in a court of law: In fact you are not required to swear on the Bible in a court of law, and in most places it’s not commonly practiced any more. You may choose to affirm that you swear to tell the truth without the use of the word God or the Bible, and it is within your rights to do so without fear of penalty or reprisal. Again, this has nothing to do with being against the faith of others, and all about making sure that all beliefs are respected equally. The Wicca bashing may be amusing to some, but if The United States military accepts Wicca as an established religion (and they do) than surely we should.
free market educator
October 16th, 2009
12:53 am
Well, as I’ve posted before, the ONLY families practicing separation of church and state are FREE MARKET EDUCATORS! Our kids can be as religious as they want and even read the Bible during school hours. Why? BECAUSE OUR GOD IS GREAT ENOUGH TO PROVIDE THE BUCKS FOR THEIR EDUCATION. What kind of god do you serve? ONE WHO IS ALWAYS IN DEBT AND HAS TO TAKE FROM OTHERS TO SURVIVE. HA HA HA HA! Don’t forget, Abraham Lincoln’s first text book was a B-I-B-L-E. Shhhhhhh.
Bestoink Dooley
October 16th, 2009
4:44 am
The distribution may have been “outside,” but it was still on school grounds. It never ends. We have to be forever vigilant. These people never give up trying to foist Christianity on the rest of us and our vulnerable children. They would be like the Taliban in Muslim countries if they could get away with it. If you believe in silly children’s stories from a book of dubious origin instead of science to explain our complex universe, keep it to yourself and your own kids,LEAVE MINE ALONE! As for this principal, he should be severely disciplined for being so stupid.
jim d
October 16th, 2009
10:40 am
Larry,
Maybe someone should set up at schools to hand out copies of “Magical Rites from the Crystal Well.”
I’m fairly certain that Ed Fitch wouldn’t object.
Laura
October 16th, 2009
11:19 am
Wow… lies of evolution AND a lack of understanding about the Enlightenment beliefs of the Founding Fathers. Brilliant. If you don’t understand scientific theory, I’m pretty sure that you don’t get Deism, either.
Listen, I’m a Christian, but I read my Bible at home. There is a time and a place for everything, and during the public school day is not one of them. I remember feeling miserable in high school because we constantly had Southern Baptist ministers speak, and being from the North, I’m not one. I can’t imagine how the non-Christian kids felt… I know I had Catholic friends who almost got the school board involved.
It is perfectly legit to read examples from the King James Bible in lit class (World lit books include it) as long as it is accompanied by other religious texts and presented in the context of a unit.
Christianity helps reinforce my morals, but it doesn’t create them. Atheists are just as moral as Christians. You have to be at least moderately so to function properly in society.
V for Vendetta
October 16th, 2009
11:21 am
Wow, fme,
I’m glad your god has nothing better to do than make sure you’re financially secure. I suppose all them poor people must be atheists. Too bad Honest Abe’s Bible couldn’t stop bullets.
CJ
October 17th, 2009
5:00 pm
the day that planned parenthood and the rest stop recruiting OUR children with abortions, guardisil, condoms, (trying to legislate their morality)etc., the day we’ll stop allowing Bibles to be passed out, voluntarily, deal?
db
October 18th, 2009
3:54 pm
Wow? All of you who are against Christ and making these outrageous statements about the word of God? That is just crazy man! God is very real and we will all be Judged by Him. I would hate to be some of you. I am for sure not perfect, but I do have enough since to know better then to try Him. I would advise you all who hate against the all mighty God, the prince of peace, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the Rose of Sharon, the Lord of Lords, and the King of Kings! You all need to think real hard. Just imagine hearing these words from Christ on your Day of Judgment. “Depart from me I never knew you” If you don’t believe in God or Hell. You will find out that both exist and both will be very real in your life at your day of Judgment like it or not! We pass out Condoms but not Bibles? Some of you need to take these free Bibles and open them up and read them. Good Grief? Some of you who are posting on this page is doomed, if you do not get your life right with Christ! He is very real and he is coming for his Bride, and you will get left behind if you do not know Him. Just think like this, if I am right then you have everything to gain, (i.e.) Heaven, Streets of Gold,the Land of Milk and Honey,a Mansion in the Sky, no more sorrow and no more pain, or if I am wrong you have nothing to lose. Why would anyone in their right mind gamble with their eternal life? Why would anyone deny God? We are truly living in the time of Revelation. How sad for some of you!I hope and pray that if you do not know Him that you will get to know Him. He is wonderful, and he is my Savior and Lord. I love Him with all of my Heart.
Former Georgian
October 18th, 2009
4:39 pm
If my memory is correct, the Gideons hand out the King James version of the Bible, which has long been considered to be a high mark of English literature. Therefore it is a legitimate educational item, unlike the Koran, Book of Morman, etc. Of course, many of us well-educated parents(my husband is a PhD cancer researcher and I am a science teacher with a master’s degree and 14 years experience as a teacher in SC public schools)have opted out of the public system and send our children to private Christian schools where the Bible is part of the curriculum in all subjects. And yes we do teach our students what the theory of evolution says and the alleged evidences for it. Private schools have much more freedom to explore different viewpoints than public schools because parents who don’t like what we teach are free(and encouraged) to take their students elsewhere.
V for Vendetta
October 21st, 2009
12:17 pm
db,
I have enough “since” to know that the Bible is a fairy tale. While you were in church, I was learning diction.
Jerry
October 21st, 2009
10:47 pm
Ladies and gentleman, we will shortly be arriving at Hartsfield- Jackson airport. Please set your watches back two hundred years.
Saintmarks
October 22nd, 2009
4:03 am
Don’t know what all the uproar is about. Since Georgia is so backwards compared to Massachusettes, the kids in Georgia schools can’t read the bibles anyway.
shaggy
October 22nd, 2009
7:08 am
To all of the “Georgia is backwards” nitwits: There are several transportation methods available for you to go back to either that pretty rust belt you ran away from in the first place or that peculiar smelling northeast, where “youse guys” reigns as good grammar. We really don’t want you here, and we were better off before you desserted your own heritage, crapped up your home environment, and now want to spread like a virus.
And, no I don’t want religon of any kind mixed with government, and I believe evolution is the way we got where we are today, except loud, obnoxious Rosie O’d types from the north. Those are surely signs of reverse evolution, and they will one day return to being a single-cell organism that infests bagels and emits large amounts of noxious gas.
Huh?
October 22nd, 2009
10:06 am
So what exactly is in the bible that you are afraid your kids might read?
Also, if you think Georgia has rednecks, go spend some time in rural Connecticut and Massachusetts. Finger-pointing jerks. How did it go in Boston when the federal courts ordered school bussing for racial equality? Not so liberal then, were you. People who elected Ted Kennedy year after year to represent them, and apparently appropriately so.
Kitty
October 22nd, 2009
10:23 am
Shaggy, Read the test scores for GA; we are in fact ‘backwards’.
chuck allison
October 22nd, 2009
10:43 am
I sure wish unsaved Americans would quit trying to champion heathen foreign religions here in the USA.
Christianity is not just an alternative religion; it is the worship of the one and only true and living God. Giving out the Word of God in our schools is very different from giving out the Koran, book of Mormon or any other pagan, heathen “holy book”. You can’t just invent your own religion.
Kitty
October 22nd, 2009
10:49 am
Chuck Allison,
Simply; you are incorrect.
Kitty
October 22nd, 2009
10:54 am
In fact you can just “invent your own religion”, consider that before a certain period in time, there was no Christianity, so in fact it was ‘just made up’. Those of us not afraid to live our current lives, await no fears of death. Those of you unhappy with the way you have chosen to live this one life have ‘created’ a second life senario in which you afford yourselves a second chance to get it right. Just Do it right now, and you won’t need the ‘Do over’ senerio you have ‘invented’. Be unafraid, you can do it!
Jennifer
October 22nd, 2009
11:37 am
I am a practicing catholic, and I grew up in the Georgia public school system, where my religion was never an issue. It rarely came up, and my parents and our parish shaped my religious beliefs. It wasn’t until I graduated and attended a well-known ‘christian’ college in Georgia that I realized how lucky I was to be protected by the separation of church at state. At this ‘christian’ school I was constantly told that I was not a christian, that jesus was a baptist and that I needed to be saved. The students were relentless, and at times vicious. I was completely caught off guard. I had never had my beliefs challenged and ridiculed before. It was quite a learning experience. I transferred to UGA soon after. Often the people that are pro prayer in school are only pro their prayers and their beliefs. We need separation of church and state, and I applaud the ACLU.
Jackson
October 22nd, 2009
11:55 am
Former Georgian – Interesting that you reference the King James version of the Bible as a high water mark for English Lit. It might be that but is also one of the least accurate English translations of the various writings compiled in the 4th century to form today’s Bible. It was published just prior to the discovery of several ancient manuscripts of the new testament which revealed the errors and alterations of generations of monks, scribes, clergy and translators.