Jesus in the bleachers: Why sis-boom-bah and the Bible don’t mix at football games
Tuesday's rally in Catoosa County for the Bible-verse carrrying cheerleaders drew 500 supporters. AP Photo/The Chattanooga Times Free Press, Dan Henry
Why does the church-state issue continue to crop up in public schools?
The latest flare-up is here in Catoosa County where the Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe High School cheerleaders turned to God when nothing else seemed to be helping their football team.
The cheerleaders created banners with Bible verses to change the fortunes of the team and displayed them during the football games. The banners are the sort that the players crash through as they enter the field and include such biblical verses as “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.”
“The cheerleaders are not trying to push a religious cause, to shove religion down someone’s throat,” said youth minister Brad Scott to the Chattanooga Times Free Press. “The cheerleaders are just using scripture to show motivation and inspiration to the players and the fans.”
Apparently the cheerleaders have sought divine intervention through the banners since 2003 with the approval of the then football coach, but a complaint was only recently filed with Superintendent Denia Reese. Now, the banners are out.
“Personally, I appreciate this expression of their Christian values. However, as superintendent I have the responsibility of protecting the school district from legal action by groups who do not support their beliefs,” said Reese in a press statement.
As you might expect, the decision has rankled some people in Catoosa. A rally was held last night to protest the decision.
Among those entering the fray on the side of the cheerleaders is state Rep. Jay Neal, who told the rally crowd, “Our Founding Fathers had one thing in mind when they founded this country, and it was a Christian nation built upon the principles of Jesus Christ.”
Neal apparently hasn’t checked with the U.S Supreme Court, which spoke to this issue in a 2000 decision that grew out of student-led prayers over the loud speaker at football games in Santa Fe, Texas
There are legal ways for students to gather for prayer, but this isn’t one of them, according to the Supreme Court.
The court ruled the prayers illegal because school authorities had made religious conformity the price of attending school athletic events. The court concluded that the district’s public prayer policy delivered a dangerous message that non-believers ”are outsiders” in the community and “encourages divisiveness along religious lines of a public school setting.”
Superintendent Reese has the support of the Anti-Defamation League, which sent her a letter today commending her for upholding the First Amendment to the Constitution.
Written by ADL Southeast Regional Director Bill Nigut, the letter states in part:
“ADL believes deeply in the importance of safeguarding freedom of religion in our increasingly pluralistic nation. This position is not one of hostility toward religion; rather, it reflects a profound respect for religious freedom and recognition of the extraordinary diversity of religions represented by the students and staff in our public schools. It is essential that high school sports programs keep in mind that the children entrusted to your care likely have widely divergent religious points of view. Your decision shows respect for this diversity.
Of course students have the right to individually express their religious beliefs and it is commendable that you have sought out alternatives that can meet the needs of your students and stay within the principles of the First Amendment.
Can we all say “amen” to that?
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316 comments Add your comment
Dunwoody Mom
September 30th, 2009
4:38 pm
Someone does not know our country’s history either. Our founding father’s were very clear in their believes in the separation of church and state. In fact, there are no terms relative to Christianity at all in the Consitution. Might I suggest for their reading “Founding Brothers” by Joseph Ellis.
Hanie
September 30th, 2009
4:47 pm
What ever happened to freedom of religion? If the cheerleaders wanted to put bible verses on banners they should be allowed to. This country was founded on freedom of religion. So taking away there right to express themselves is wrong. Of course that is just my opinion. If someone from another religion expressed themselves on banners and wrote positive scriptures on them I wouldn’t care. Just as long as the message is positive. Again just my opinion.
Gary Hart
September 30th, 2009
5:29 pm
Geez MD–you allowed the words penetration, climax, thressomes and foreplay on the student sex blog. What was wrong with my Beta Club joke?
jim d
September 30th, 2009
5:43 pm
Mo.
you can say amen you may say anything you wish. the problem with this one was stated very clearly in the article.
“Apparently the cheerleaders have sought divine intervention through the banners since 2003 at the instruction of the football coach,” emphasis on WHO gave the instruction. A school employee may not do this. The law is quite clear on this issue.
Tony
September 30th, 2009
5:45 pm
Oh, this one is quite precarious. The students actually do have a right to free expression and the Supreme Court has upheld that right, too. While student led prayers may be overt, printed Bible verses do not require participation. Even though this may be a school sanctioned event, the use of Bible verses on the part of the cheerleaders may tread on their individual rights. The coach, however, crossed a boundary if he directed them to use scripture texts. He is an agent of the state and the court has clearly defined that role.
Now, as a Christian, I am offended that scriptures and prayer have been trivialized by this kind of use – football game fight slogans! Jesus gave very clear instructions to His disciples about prayer (enter into your closet and pray in secret) and response to government (render unto Caesar…). I have a personal distaste for those who distort the acts of personal faith in ways like this, and then stir up a controversy that defames the beliefs they claim to espouse.
V for Vendetta
September 30th, 2009
6:11 pm
Hanie, you would be wise to heed Dunwoody Mom’s comment. I’m shocked, though not altogether surprised, by Rep. Neal’s misunderstanding of our country’s history. I can’t believe he would utter such nonsense:
“Rep. Jay Neal, who told the rally crowd, ‘Our Founding Fathers had one thing in mind when they founded this country, and it was a Christian nation built upon the principles off [sic] Jesus Christ.’”
Sorry, Mr. Neal, but that’s completely untrue. From John Adams:
“As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion . . .”
“The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation.”
-quotes from The Treaty of Tripoli
From Benjamin Franklin:
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.”
“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
From Thomas Jefferson:
“Erecting the ‘wall of separation between church and state,’ therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”
It is amazing to me how many people believe in this nonsense of a Christian nation. Apparently our own elected officials are unclear in regards to this matter. I find that quite troublesome. We have allowed religious dogma to usurp common sense for far too long. It is time that logic and reason once again become the means by which our country is guided. After all, as bad as socialism is, a theocracy is far, far worse.
Maureen Downey
September 30th, 2009
6:12 pm
To clarify, the Chattanooga paper reports that the coach who gave his blessing to the signs back in 2003 is now with another school. The paper reported that current head football coach Todd Windham said the school system must obey the law, despite everyone’s opinions. “Just my standpoint, I thought the banners were unique,” Mr. Windham said. “I really feel for the girls who prepare the banners and I think they really do a good job. They prepare a whole season’s worth during the summer and they put in a lot of work on those.”
boots
September 30th, 2009
6:16 pm
Who wrote this article? I do not see it attributed to anyone, and I find if v e r y opinionated. In any event, I find the assertion that the founding fathers did not base the base documents upon Christian principals unintelligent. They did, and there is no historical debate to this and the strong consensus of historical scholars hold to this position. However, I do think it is not appropriate. As a Christian, and a very strong, conservative one, it is probably better judgement to not use banners. If they wanted to pray beforehand, that would be appropriate. Further, for the ADL to get involved is just silly. This is not a move to defame any faith, and to even get involved seems to be making much to do about nothing. One final note: what bothers me most about this whole thing is the Federal government trying to dictate to these students what they can & cant do. We need to curb the encroachment of the power-hungry dictators in DC.
DAVID
September 30th, 2009
6:23 pm
Bet if the school caught fire & there were children trapped inside…….there would appeals for Devine intervention……even from big LIBs.
Maureen Downey
September 30th, 2009
6:27 pm
Actually, as the daughter of a firefighter, I would appeal to the fire department.
boots
September 30th, 2009
6:27 pm
My bad, I see the attribution now. In any event, the quotes provided above by V are out of context. 1. Adams is simply establishing that the Christian faith is not endorsed by the government. I agree with Adams. 2. The treaty of Tripoli was with a Muslim government and the statement is in the context of working to make peace with this nation, not to reflect upon motivations of the founding fathers or the culture of the time. 3. Franklin was not a Christian, and I conceed that. His statement is not relevant to the intent of the Founders to limit Christian expression (or any other expression). 4. Jefferson is making Adam’s point above – no sanctioned government.
There is so much evidence that the Founders would not have wanted to limit personal expression on religion, that it is unnecessary to hammer the point home for any reasonable person. V, you should study history and not misquote or take others out of context, including me.
V for Vendetta
September 30th, 2009
6:31 pm
boots,
Christian principles are one thing, a Christian NATION is quite another. Of course, having good morals or principles is not a phenomenon unique to Christians.
DAVID,
Perhaps, though I bet they would know how to spell Divine . . . even the big LIBs.
Maureen's accountability metric
September 30th, 2009
6:36 pm
Speaking of religion, from Maureen earlier today
“When we received the letter that he was nearing the point of suspension, we went bonkers and introduced a Marine-style regimen to his mornings, beginning with an occasional bugle wake-up by my trumpet-playing husband.”
So Maureen, when you yourself were confronted with a chronically disruptive child, you didn’t blame yourself for not making the morning routine more “engaging” or “relevant” or or in other ways find the primary fault was with you for not making the morning routine so “interesting” that your child would just naturally want to comply?
Apparently not, because by your own words when you received the letter that your child was nearing the point of suspension, you “went bonkers and introduced a Marine-style regimen to his mornings…”.
Yet when a teacher is confronted by a chronically and unlike yours, even severely disruptive child and, also unlike you, has to also manage 20 or more other children at the same time, you can’t preach what you’ve admitted you practiced and advocate the teacher be given the authority to exercise a stronger hand?
Does that not sound a bit conflicted?
And speaking of conflicted and religion, did you by any chance go to a Catholic school as a child, as thereby still harbor a resentment toward any teacher who would exercise a firm hand in discipline, even though you clearly admit its efficacy when it came to your own chronically disruptive child?
Maybe you didn’t go to Catholic schools as a child, but something has to explain your basically inexplicable contention that lack of support for teachers isn’t a “pressing” issue.
V for Vendetta
September 30th, 2009
6:37 pm
Thanks, boots. I have studied history quite extensively, and I don’t believe those quotes are out of context. Obviously, since I cited the source document, I am familiar with how Adams used the quote in the Treaty of Tripoli. I think his quotes illustrate the point that America is NOT a Christian nation. As I’ve previously said, I support the claim that the Founding Fathers had Christian ideals. (Though I find it funny that Christians claim Jefferson as one of their own. Perhaps they’ve never heard of the Jeffersonian Bible, in which Jefferson omitted Jesus’ miracles in order to make him appear as more of a philosopher, not a direct link to divinity.)
By the way, boots, when did I quote you out of context?
Parent
September 30th, 2009
6:46 pm
Do we really need to pray to God for touchdowns? Really! I would be more impressed with their Christian values if the cheerleaders spend their time volunteering at hospitals, schools and nursing homes, not making “Christian Banners” so their team could win.
a-jax
September 30th, 2009
6:51 pm
Cheerleading, which is sponsored by the school, should not be allowed the squad to promote any particular religion over the other. would it be the same if they quoted passages from the Torah for inspiration?
V for Vendetta
September 30th, 2009
6:53 pm
a-jax,
Haha! What about he Koran? I would have loved to see the reaction that would have gotten.
DannyX
September 30th, 2009
6:53 pm
I did what Thomas Jefferson did. I created my very own Bible. I, like Jefferson, used a pair of scissors to chop out the parts I don’t believe in.
One thing I did keep in my edited Bible was the part about public prayer. Jesus hates public prayer. In fact he wants us to keep our faith private. Its amazing how something so amazingly simple can be ignored by the loudest Christians. Where do you all come up with all these phony waivers?
As a Christian nation I demand that the Christians in this country open up their own Bibles, and stop skipping over the parts they don’t like. The next Christian law enacted should be a ban on any type of public prayer or display of the Christian religion. Its in the Bible. Public prayer is a choice, its also a sin. You can’t love the sin and love the sinner.
REPENT!
Jimmy
September 30th, 2009
6:58 pm
The coach who started this is now at Silverdale Baptist. His email is at this website: http://www.silverdalebaptistacademy.com/www/docs/383
Jimmy
September 30th, 2009
7:01 pm
Nice to see the tradition has continued at Coach Allen’s new school. The signs are very similar: http://www.silverdalebaptistacademy.com/www/docs/626
Tracy
September 30th, 2009
7:41 pm
God did not write the bible men did! With so many different religions who’s to say Christianity is the right one?? who’s to say any are right men wrote them NOT GOD. If someone said God spoke to them today they would get put in a mental institution. They can protest all they want. There is something called separation of church and state and it is a public school. I’m sure everyone there is not Christian. Brainwashing starts at a early age. These girls are obviously brainwashed and need to open their science books. They need to open a lot of books and leave the bible closed. After being told those verses over and over 16-18 years who wouldn’t believe them. That is unless they were smart Oh wait their cheerleaders my bad….
Bob
September 30th, 2009
7:43 pm
The signs are both lawful and good.
No one complained, either. That is a fabrication by the school superintendent to deflect criticism off of her. The person who called wanted to make sure everything was done to make sure there couldn’t be a lawsuit. Her concern was protection of the students and teachers, NOT a complaint to try and coerce the school system into violating the cheerleaders’ God-given and constitutionally guaranteed right to freely express their Christian faith by writing inspirational Bible verses on a big piece of paper.
To deny the Christianity of the Founders and the Christian purposes and foundations of our government and laws is one of the most ignorant positions a person could take. Seriously, the historical evidence is massively overwhelming.
You may not like that and wish it weren’t so and try to change it, but to deny it is just plain stupid.
Jimmy
September 30th, 2009
7:47 pm
Photo credit? Has the AJC sunk so low that they must now lift the intellecual property of the Chattanooga paper without giving them credit?
Jimmy
September 30th, 2009
7:59 pm
t
THE CATHOLIC HAMMER
September 30th, 2009
8:05 pm
Silly Protestants.
They get what they deserve.
Ray
September 30th, 2009
8:19 pm
Ah, I see. So, God was sleeping while Christian George W Bush exterminated tens of thousands Iraqi citizens, but now that he’s awake, he’s going to take on the all-important task of high school football.
Fred
September 30th, 2009
8:33 pm
I find the lack of reading comprehension skills on this blog, although typical in today’s world, rather sad. The person who not only lacks the ability to comprehend the written word but also lacks the basic computing skills to copy/paste a “quote” is especially sad. Or did jim b deliberately misquote the article in a poor attempt to make some sort of contrived point? Hey jim b, there is a HUGE difference in the words approval and instruction. How you got “instructed” from the writers use of the word “approval” is beyond me. As such jim b, the “problem” obviously was NOT “clearly stated in the article” as you suggested with your botched quote. Try reading and copying the black parts next time, not rewriting the article in your post.
boots: How was this blog “v e r y opinionated?” After reading it, I could not tell which side of the fence the author comes down on. She attributed quotes both for and against from more than one source, including; A US Supreme Court decision, A US Congressman, The School District Superintendant, a Baptist pastor, and far leftist activist Bill Nigut. Nowhere did I see the author give an opinion. I have to admit I am shocked to say that lol. I expected to find a piece very biased one way or the other when I saw the title on the AJC home page but was pleased to find an article that basically just gave the facts, just like in the good old days, when papers employed journalists to report the news instead of the commentators of today’s media who seem to think we need the “news’ interpreted, and done so along their personal viewpoint.
Maureen Downey
September 30th, 2009
8:34 pm
Jimmy, good point. I will track down photo credit and add
Tim Tebow
September 30th, 2009
8:41 pm
It was I, Tim Tebow, that called the super. I got dibs on God for the next three months, and I’m not gonna share. Pray to Buddah, b####s!
G-Man
September 30th, 2009
8:42 pm
Just another incident to where if you are a Christian and say so publicly, you come under attack or scrutinized as an outsider. Keep your heads up ladies!! We have to get back to the concept of a power greater than ourselves(HP..Higher Power) will restore this nation and the ills we are currently facing. That’s what I believe the Founding Fathers meant. We must consult some divine being to make sure we are making the right decisions for the nation rather than political party agendas.
Tim Teeball
September 30th, 2009
8:49 pm
“Someone does not know our country’s history either. Our founding father’s were very clear in their believes in the separation of church and state. In fact, there are no terms relative to Christianity at all in the Consitution.
The Christian God still has a huge presence in American gov’t. Ever noticed “In God We Trust” on all money produced? Congress still opens sessions with prayer to the Christian God. Ever read the Pledge of Allegiance? (One Nation, Under God) And here’s the end of the Constitution:
“Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth.”
The Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves though. America becoming the United States
of Israel isn’t sitting too well with them.
Maureen Downey
September 30th, 2009
8:51 pm
Fred, To be fair to Jim d, I rewrote this blog entry several times this afternoon as I obtained more information. So, Jim was responding to an earlier version. I often edit myself and I need to make note of that in view of comments that may reflect earlier versions. I am sorry.
I can’t say anything about Boots. His/her comments will have to stand on their own.
Maureen
7/9
September 30th, 2009
8:53 pm
A noodley appendage of the Flying Spaghetti Monster will pull the feet right out from under a running-back. So it was said and heard, written and read, on this day.
Tacky
September 30th, 2009
9:05 pm
First and foremost, the thought of using religion as a goad to win a football game is offensive. Do people REALLY believe that God – in whatever form you might choose to acknowledge him/her/it – CARES about the results of a high school football game, or ANY game, for that matter? This trivialization of religion is appalling, not to MENTION the basic theological problems associated with an intellectually honest Christian presuming that God favors ONE set of His children over another. How about we return religion to what it should be – an attempt by man to understand the ineffable and unknowable. This…Kentucky Fried Chicken version is nauseating and pathetic.
Oh…and you people rambling about the Founding Fathers should look up the phrase “Ceremonial Deism”. REAL history is your friend, not the garbage that fundy apologists manufacture.
murph
September 30th, 2009
9:06 pm
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof……
The “separation of church and state” metaphor is not mentioned in the Constitution and is not law – anywhere. This country was founded by Christians. We have references to Bible quotes and Christian theism in several “public”, government buildings throughout this country. “In God We Trust” is printed on our money and can be found in plaques in the capital building. We say “under God” when we recite the Pledge of Allegiance. We even have chaplains on the public payroll in local, state, and federal levels of government. The Liberty Bell has a Bible verse engraved on it. Christmas (the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ) is a federal holiday.
These girls are not trying to establish a religion nor force anyone to profess allegiance to Christianity. They are expressing their First Amendment right of free speech.
Tim Tebow
September 30th, 2009
9:10 pm
What?? God doesn’t care about football?? Does Ra? Does Zeus? Help me, Jeebus!!
Tacky
September 30th, 2009
9:18 pm
“The “separation of church and state” metaphor is not mentioned in the Constitution and is not law – anywhere.”
False. There are several kinds of law, one of which is common law. Common law is that law which is determined by court precedent and judicial decisions. Judicial precedent long ago established the separation of church and state. And before you start ignorantly bleating about “activist judges”, Common law was built into our judicial system, based on the Common law system that existed in England long before the Colonies rebelled.
desmondk
September 30th, 2009
9:22 pm
The girls are promoting a religion using a public-school sponsored organization at a public-school sponsored event. The Catoosa County taxpayers can’t choose not to fund the school system if they don’t support Christianity, unless they prefer jail. That’s the difference here. If that’s a private school, no problem. My old private school said benedictions every school day and before every event. But why should a Buddhist or Jewish family’s money go to help support a religion they don’t believe in?
Bob Dobb
September 30th, 2009
9:23 pm
I’ll put all of hooey in my pipe and smoke it.
V for Vendetta
September 30th, 2009
9:30 pm
G-Man,
“Just another incident to [sic] where if you are a Christian and say so publicly, you come under attack or [are] scrutinized as an outsider.”
Are you serious? As a proud and unapologetic Atheist, I can barely get the word out of my mouth before I am witnessed to by hoards of Christian apologists claiming everything from my eternal salvation to eternal damnation. (Heck, I really don’t know where I’m going these days, to be honest. Depending on who I’m talking to, it seems to change by the minute.)
“We must consult some divine being to make sure we are making the right decisions for the nation . . .”
To be frank, comments like that scare the he11 out of me. I have a novel idea: How about consulting reason, logic, science, and history? I agree with your assessment of the political parties–I’ll grant you that–but the idea that some mystical and unknowable supreme being can (or should) lead us in the right direction is simply absurd. Why do you so willingly surrender your own intelligence? Why do you subjugate yourself before something of which you really know absolutely nothing–yet claim to know everything? It amazes me that people have so little respect for themselves. A few quotes to consider:
“Ask yourself whether the dream of heaven and greatness should be left waiting for us in our graves—or whether it should be ours here and now on this earth.”
from Atlas Shrugged
“I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction.”
from Anthem
murph
September 30th, 2009
9:30 pm
Okay, Tacky…
Why then is Christianity so prevalent in our government institutions/buildings? And, please cite the case law (common law) that prohibits cheerleaders from displaying banners containing Bible quotes.
Fly like a Eagle
September 30th, 2009
9:33 pm
For all of you non-believers and who dare blaspheme God’s Holy Word, may you confess your sins and ask the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive you and save your soul before it is eternally too late.
BubbaLove
September 30th, 2009
9:38 pm
It’s all about intimidation. What if there was a Jewish kid on that football team? What if they asked him to kneel and bow his head during a pre-game prayer that mentioned Christ? Would the kid feel like he had to? Would you want him to feel that intimidation? Would you want him to feel bad about his family and his religious heritage?
John
September 30th, 2009
9:43 pm
Catoosa County is also the only place I’ve gone in the past 15 years where they insist on having a prayer over the public address system before a high school football game. Every other school in northwest Georgia is obeying the Constitution while Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe and Ringgold teach their students that they don’t have to obey the rule of law in this country. I am a Christian but am appalled at this practice every time the high school my children have attended has had to visit Catoosa County.
Ray
September 30th, 2009
9:44 pm
Well said, Vendetta. And based on what I’ve seen out of our so-called American ‘Christians’ over the past decade- they can have it.
Judge/demean anybody who doesn’t see it their way?
Pack their little self righteous churches on Sunday, but then badmouth Jesus like liberalism all week?
Puff out your chest and bomb?
Sign up for big business’ anti-government movement so you don’t have to pay for the poor?
Band together to hunt ‘illegals’? Call God’s children ‘illegal’ in the first place?
Nooooooooo thanks.
Seriously though, we all know the ‘American Christians’ ceased being actual Christians when they laid on their back for the Republican party.
Eagle98
September 30th, 2009
9:45 pm
I am not a historian but I am a Christian and I believe that we are a “Christian Nation.” Not a Theocracy such as the country from which we took our Freedom many years ago but a free, religious and tolerant nation founded on Judeo-Christian values as illustrated in these two articles:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=23909
KMan
September 30th, 2009
9:45 pm
Since they can’t make signs with Bible verses, how about: “Recall our Superintendent”, or “In case of Rapture, Maureen we’ll miss you when we’re gone” or “Thanks AJC for letting people make fun of Christians one more time” The last one was a little wordy….
bleacher bum
September 30th, 2009
9:55 pm
KMan is practicing peace and Christian love.
Seriously, dude, who are you to judge anyone? People like you give religion a bad name because you use your religion to hate others.
murph
September 30th, 2009
10:00 pm
Do they force you to pray, John? Are you also against reciting the Pledge of Allegiance? Congress has a chaplain (on the public payroll) that opens each session with a prayer.
And Bubba….please explain how a banner with a Bible quote is intimidating. Nobody is asking anyone to kneel or bow – and no one is offending any other religion.
BubbaLove
September 30th, 2009
10:16 pm
Murph, you just don’t get it do you? Read again what I wrote, put yourself back in High School and run in my cleats. That was my experience and it was intimidating.
dansfae
September 30th, 2009
10:21 pm
Anyone who thinks god cares about football in the first place is trivializing god.
Thank you to the superintendant for upholding the law. The prayer business is divisive and exclusionary.
RC35
September 30th, 2009
10:28 pm
Isn’t it interesting that this issue is in the paper during “Banned Books Week”? Is there any book that has been banned in more places around the world and throughout its history than the Bible? Is there any book more likely to arouse anger when used in schools than the Bible? Sorry, J.D. Salinger, your “Catcher in the Rye” doesn’t catch near the flak of “The Sermon on the Mount”.
murph
September 30th, 2009
10:32 pm
Bubba-
Your personal high school experience has nothing to do with this issue.
teeoh
September 30th, 2009
10:48 pm
The phrase “separation of church and state” is not in the constitution,but neither is “right to a fair trial.” The concepts are though. “Right to privacy” is not mentioned, but it’s clear the Supreme Court thinks the concept is. We have the right to vote, but the phrase “right to vote” is not in the constitution.
I could go on and on, but the fact remains, these banners have no place at a public high school… unless you want to make it ecumenical. I seriously doubt these folks do. Take the banners down.
BubbaLove
September 30th, 2009
10:49 pm
Murph, It’s just an example of one of the reasons our founding fathers separated Church and State.
BubbaLove
September 30th, 2009
10:51 pm
Teeoh,
I agree. It’s also important to note that the term ecumenical only refers to Protestants.
Jennifer
September 30th, 2009
10:51 pm
This horrifies me to no end.
We are Jewish and I can recall many times that my children have been singled out. From the ‘academic bowl championships’ where so many of the questions were from the Holy Bible- my son answered them all – and a teammates parent blurted out loud – “and to think a Jew answered these” – to my daughter having to go to basketball training and participate in a group prayer. All ended up as teachable moments – but they did not come without a significant emotional cost that someone so young should not have to endure.
I am deeply thankful to the Superintendent for recognizing that all religion needs to be respected and a feverish group display of one religion that makes kids feel uncomfortable is wrong.
Sowega
September 30th, 2009
10:56 pm
I had a Jewish friend in high school; we were in the band together. I remember when the collective mob wanted to pray a highly sectarian prayer before a show, he would make the point of standing tall and holding his head high. What courage. I didn’t pray either, but just because I’m a contrarian.
I was also a soldier a long time ago, and when our chaplain held a service shortly before we rolled over the border, I asked him if he could put me in touch with a deity that understood blood, steel, and fire–such a deity would be infinitely more useful in such times. He got a little flustered and said he’d pray for me.
Christians being oppressed? Hate to tell you, but the coliseum and the lions are long gone. The real oppressed are the reason-oriented kids that live in these backwater hells and looked at like they’re some kind of alien dog for not bending their knee in submission to the youth group masses.
gee zuss
September 30th, 2009
11:06 pm
Enter your comments here
Hey you kids on earth, stop it or I won’t help anyone score touchdowns or win grammys anymore
Tim Tebow
September 30th, 2009
11:09 pm
No, gee zuss, Noooo!
Thogwummpy
September 30th, 2009
11:11 pm
Well, the issue is implied indoctrination using the school as a forum. That said, it would but stunning if OVERT INDOCTRINATION—specifically all these gramar school kids on surfacing YouTube videos reciting organized political praise of Obama their teachers taught them in public school—-were a topic that deep Leftist Bill Nyg-ass became interested in using his bully pulpit to expose. See folks…it’s all selective prosecution with Nigut’s type.
teeoh
September 30th, 2009
11:11 pm
Bubba Love, if you agree, why are you defending the banners?
As for the phrase, “one nation under god,” that wasn’t added until 1954 because people were so freaked out about godless communism. It’s not a very old tradition. It’s a bit of an over reaction, in my view.
As far as the definition of ecumenical goes, I’m aware it’s “Christian.” But Catholics and Protestants can’t even agree on which version of the 10 commandments to follow… Exodus or Deuteronomy? I could personally care less… but those are the type of issues you get into when you start posting biblical quotes before a football game. Let’s just watch some football.
murph
September 30th, 2009
11:13 pm
I think some of you are blowing this way out of proportion….horrified, oppressed, intimidated? Are you serious? Are there that many people in this country that fear cheerleaders with banners? I would suggest you fear your government – not the Christian cheerleaders. The Christians are not trying to censor your freedom of speech – the government is. If you let them censor this simple, harmless act, you will give them the power to squelch our voices on much more important issues.
We are asked, in this country, to be tolerant. Why can’t folks tolerate a simple Bible quote. These references to Christianity exist in a lot of government buildings, memorials and text.
Personal reminiscing is interesting, but it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This is a question of freedom. No one is oppressing or forcing or promoting or intimidating here. Those who make these ascertains should read their history! History will show you true oppression, intimidation, fear, and horror – and you don’t have to go all the way back to the coliseum days.
If we continue to empower this government – through congressional law or common law – all of us will suffer…..no matter what your religious belief.
V for Vendetta
September 30th, 2009
11:14 pm
RC35,
Considering how many Korans there are in print worldwide, I’d say it has the Bible beat. But look at this way: they’re both equally useless. Feel better?
teeoh
September 30th, 2009
11:16 pm
“Christians being oppressed? Hate to tell you, but the coliseum and the lions are long gone. The real oppressed are the reason-oriented kids that live in these backwater hells and looked at like they’re some kind of alien dog for not bending their knee in submission to the youth group masses.”
Couldn’t agree more Sowega.
murph
September 30th, 2009
11:23 pm
Bubba-
I assume you are talking about the “establishment clause”?
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion……”
Separation of church and state does NOT appear anywhere in the Constitution.
teeoh
September 30th, 2009
11:25 pm
I thought I posted a response to Bubba Love, but it never showed up.
I said, if you agree, why are you defending the banners? And yeah, ecumenical is defined as “christian” but even catholics and protestants can’t even agree on which version of the 10 commandments to follow… Exodus or Deuteronomy? How can they agree on a banner. And what about other faiths. Can’t we leave all this stuff for Sunday school and just watch some football?
teeoh
September 30th, 2009
11:30 pm
Well, my other post did make it… sorry for the repeat…
Murph… I hate to keep repeating myself… but you obviously know nothing about the Constitution. Check my original post. You keep saying “separation of chruch and state” appear nowhere in the document, but so what, neither does “right to a fair trial.” The concepts are though. “Right to privacy” is not mentioned, but it’s clear the Supreme Court thinks the concept is. We have the right to vote, but the phrase “right to vote” is not in the constitution.
Your talking point is just down right silly.
teeoh
September 30th, 2009
11:33 pm
Sorry, I said Murph, but I meant Bubba Love.
Country Blonde
September 30th, 2009
11:38 pm
Enter your comments here
I think the cheerleaders need to start worry about their education; they misspelled a simple word on one of their banners. It says “Jesus are Savior.” Dear Cheerleaders: The second person possessive word that you are looking for is spelled “our.” “Are” is a verb.
murph
September 30th, 2009
11:40 pm
Gimme a break teeoh…
Here’s the Sixth:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
And here’s the Fourth:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
These two Amendments are obvious! Your argument is weak.
How can you deduce “separation” from the Establishment Clause? That is such a stretch!!!
Who, obviously, is misinterpreting the Constitution/Bill of Rights here?
Country Blonde
September 30th, 2009
11:40 pm
Enter your comments here
Oops I meant start worrying! (Giggle) : )
murph
September 30th, 2009
11:44 pm
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Someone please explain how anyone would interpret this as “separation of church and state”.
V for Vendetta
September 30th, 2009
11:52 pm
murph,
Your understanding of government needs work. So does your defense of religion. You said:
“We are asked, in this country, to be tolerant. Why can’t folks tolerate a simple Bible quote.”
Tolerance? What a novel idea. Is that unique to Christians or do, say, gay folks get to enjoy tolerance as well? I’ve seen quite enough of Christian tolerance.
BubbaLove
September 30th, 2009
11:57 pm
Murph, What if we asked, or told, the cheerleaders to hold up a banner that said “Alah Akhbar” (God is great)?
Sp Ed Teacher
September 30th, 2009
11:59 pm
Brad I am proud of you and your group. Keep up the good work. Your FB friend.
murph
October 1st, 2009
12:04 am
V-
Gays? WTF does that have to do with cheerleaders holding banners? This is the typical liberal/progressive argument – change the subject and make uninformed accusations.
BTW….although I am Christian by birth, I’m not a Bible thumper – far from it. I can’t even remember the last time I attended church. This is a question/debate of freedom, culture, tradition, history, etc. to me.
murph
October 1st, 2009
12:07 am
Go ahead and ask/tell them, Bubba…..it’s a free country.
school's out
October 1st, 2009
12:09 am
People are missing the point, which is the school is a public school supported by the public which includes people of all religions, non-believers, sun worshippers, etc. in that county. If I were forced to hand over $3,000 of my pay every year to a school, and then I saw the cheerleaders post banners promoting the Muslim faith or Hinduism, I wouldn’t like it, and neither would most of you. Nor would you like you children to be forced into praying to Allah before every game. But some people think it’s okay for Christianity because it’s the majority. And don’t give me “free speech” nonsense. People who cry out “free speech” generally only do so when they agree with what is being expressed. Yell “free speech” if a hebrew prayer is ever recited at a public school before a game.
promoting religion in a public school - Savannah area - Georgia (GA) - Page 2 - City-Data Forum
October 1st, 2009
12:14 am
[...] [...]
scott
October 1st, 2009
12:15 am
I wonder if this would even be an issue if they where quoting the Torah or Qu’ron or would it be a protection of religion and freedom of speech?
7/9
October 1st, 2009
12:15 am
The Flying Spaghetti Monster does not argue with the coffee table, it hoovers gently above.
school's out
October 1st, 2009
12:25 am
If they were trying to promote either those banners would have never seen the light of day. Or if by some miracle they did every zealot within a 50 mile radius of Catoosa Co. would be calling for the firing of the cheerleading coach, principal, and super, especially if it was found “offensive” to them as Christians.
7/9 – I would like to see a banner that says “The Spaghetti Monster is my rock and savior” at an upcoming game.
Jessica
October 1st, 2009
12:25 am
As a Christian, I think it is unwise to trivialize Scripture by using it to promote a high school sports team. It’s simply disrespectful to God.
Sowega, the “lions” are still around. Worldwide, more Christians were martyred in the 20th century than in the 19 centuries before that combined. Just becuase we have not experienced that threat here in America doesn’t mean it can never happen. As for a deity who understands “blood, steel and fire” — read the Old Testament or Revelation. God is good, but He is not soft.
Political Mongrel
October 1st, 2009
12:47 am
The founding fathers made it quite clear that this nation was founded on both freedom of religion AND freedom from having another’s religion forced down our throats.
foosball
October 1st, 2009
12:50 am
I am the way, the truth, the light, and the offensive line….Those that know me shall not be tackled but be awarded points for carrying a ball across a strip of grass.
Larry
October 1st, 2009
12:54 am
Tony, I had to think about this one for a while, too.
If the cheerleaders all personally supported the same candidate for a local BoE election, they could wear T-shirts to this effect in their classrooms and school administrators would have to allow it.
If the cheerleaders wore these same T-shirts and used a banner supporting their candidate at football games, I think most folks would view this as a school sponsored political endorsement, not individual expression, and school administrators would intervene to stop it.
I think a court would find Superintendent Reese made the correct decision.
7/9
October 1st, 2009
12:59 am
His Noodley Appendage will redeem you!
Jesus in the bleachers: Why sis-boom-bah and the Bible don't mix … « Blogging
October 1st, 2009
2:02 am
[...] View original here: Jesus in the bleachers: Why sis-boom-bah and the Bible don't mix … [...]
Kenneth
October 1st, 2009
4:00 am
First off I just want to say I am a Christian, but I have a huge problem with people trying to intertwine the church and state.
If I’m not mistaken an Atlanta metro county, Cobb, I believe now teaches Creationism as an alternative to Evolution. Why do all Christian parents believe it is their duty to save everyone else’s children? It is one thing to show up on my front doorstep, but another to force religion down children’s throats at school. Esp, children who practice a different religion other than Christianity.
If you want this in your children’s school then send them to a CHRISTIAN SCHOOL, not a state run public school.
Jeff
October 1st, 2009
5:15 am
Yeah, this war has been raging for a couple of days now on PeachPundit and I wrote about it on SWGAPolitics.com earlier this week as well.
My basic position here: The school system was right. This isn’t about denying anyone any rights – the cheerleaders were told they could display their banner in another location outside the stadium where anyone else was also free to display similar banners. Instead, this is about not allowing ‘Christians’ SPECIAL privileges that NO ONE ELSE HAD.
A snippet from one of my comments on PeachPundit (I use the same name there as here):
Steve
October 1st, 2009
5:21 am
Now I know why the rest of the country looks at the south as a distinct entity of country bumpkins. The only part I care about is freedom for most of you trying to force your dogmatic nonsensical hooplah upon me. I wonder how many of you would support an Islamic message written by the cheerleaders? Hypocrits.
6 Things You Can Do To Give God’s Word To the World | Lingamish « Religion
October 1st, 2009
6:11 am
[...] Jesus in the bleachers: Why sis-boom-bah and the Bible don't mix … [...]
Total Insanity
October 1st, 2009
6:24 am
One of the great things about this country, is freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I may not like either position someone may hold in regard to such, but I have to respect their RIGHT to have and voice those positions. According to two cheerleaders from the school interviewed on television yesterday, they claimed that this tradition went back 20 years. Long before the often not so wise US Supreme Court made any type of formal ruling. They also on that program claimed only one person had come forward with a complaint about their use of scripture on the banners. Was it a person or an organization. I see the folks at the ADL certainly jumped on the bandwagon quick.
Perhaps if more young fresh minds were allowed to voice their personal opinions we would see that they are after all…often more sensible than the adults that try to protect them. They are banned from personal religious belief being displayed at a football game. Maybe we should have them turn to the great role model Michael Vick for guidance. Heck…he did what he did, and now signed another contract to again endorse Nike products. Our children can learn then that crime in fact does pay. There is someone that can show them how to have team spirit, and inspire them…to a life of crime.
Maybe we could have Snoop Dog come to school for show and tell. He could inspire the children on how to be an O.G. Gangsta’…where to buy your weed at wholesale prices…and how to include just the right lyrics in your rap music. Plenty of “blank” whitey…”blank” the police…and how to be the ho’ your man/pimp wants you to be while you sell yourself into prostitution. He and his nephew Akon could gather all the youth for a pep rally where they could sing their new hit…I Want To “blank” You. The world knows that we truly need more “ballers” like Snoop up on the set.
Maybe as Dunwoody Mom ( get spell check D-Mom) suggested, people should learn more about American history. The youth could then perhaps emulate their great fore-fathers. Ben Franklin surely should be one to impress and inspire them. Founding father, statesman, publisher, inventor, and racist. Gee…did I just say Ben was a racist? Yup that was me. Proven fact BF despised Jews, and hated them so much in fact that he refused to sign anything in the beginning unless the Constitution stated Jews would never be allowed to come to America. Was he in fact inspired by King Edward I whom in 1290 issued Royal proclamation expelling all Jews forever from his beloved England. That proclamtoin by the way has never been reversed to this authors knowledge. Though Franklin claimed Jews would at some point be the death of this new nation, he did succumb to peer pressure and sign. There’s a $100 roll model for a kids.
Nope…these god fearing Christian children turned to whom they believed was the ultimate roll model and person to inspire…and we told them to stuff their public religious belief back in the closet, to keep it in church, in the bathroom, perhaps under the bleachers, anywhere but in public where Oy Vey! someone may get their poor little feelings hurt. But hey…we are only trying to protect them…are we not?
If we really want to see a separation of church and state lets take the “In God We Trust” off the money printed by the Federal Reserve.
Total Insanity
October 1st, 2009
6:32 am
One of the great things about this country, is freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I may not like either position someone may hold in regard to such, but I have to respect their RIGHT to have and voice those positions. According to two cheerleaders from the school interviewed on television yesterday, they claimed that this tradition went back 20 years. Long before the often not so wise US Supreme Court made any type of formal ruling. They also on that program claimed only one person had come forward with a complaint about their use of scripture on the banners. Was it a person or an organization. I see the folks at the ADL certainly jumped on the bandwagon quick.
Perhaps if more young fresh minds were allowed to voice their personal opinions we would see that they are after all…often more sensible than the adults that try to protect them. They are banned from personal religious belief being displayed at a football game. Maybe we should have them turn to the great role model Michael Vick for guidance. Heck…he did what he did and now signed another contract to again endorse Nike products. Our children can learn then that crime in fact does pay. There is someone that can show them how to have team spirit, and inspire them…to a life of crime.
Maybe we could have Snoop Dog come to school for show and tell. He could inspire the children on how to be an O.G. Gangsta’…where to buy your weed at wholesale prices…and how to include just the right lyrics in your rap music. Plenty of “blank” whitey…”blank” the police…and how to be the ho your man wants you to be while you sell yourself into prostitution. He and his nephew Akon could gather all the youth for a pep rally where they could sing their new hit…I Want To “blank” You.
Maybe as Dunwoody Mom ( get spell check D-Mom) suggested, people should learn more about American history. The youth could then perhaps emulate their great fore-fathers. Ben Franklin surely should be one to impress and inspire them. Founding father, statesman, publisher, inventor, and racist. Gee…did I just say Ben was a racist? Yup that was me. Proven fact BF despised Jews, and hated them so much in fact that he refused to sign anything in the beginning unless the Constitution stated Jews would never be allowed to come to America. Was he in fact inspired by King Edward I whom in 1290 issued Royal proclamation expelling all Jews forever from his beloved England. Though Franklin claimed Jews would at some point be the death of this new nation, he did succumb to peer pressure and sign. There’s are $100 roll model for a kids.
Nope…these god fearing Christian children turned to whom they believed was the ultimate roll model and person to inspire…and we told them to stuff their public religious belief back in the closet, to keep it in church, in the bathroom, perhaps under the bleachers, anywhere but in public where Oy Vey! someone may get their poor little feelings hurt. But hey…we are only trying to protect them…are we not?
If we really want to see a separation of church and state lets take the “In God We Trust” off the money printed by the Federal Reserve.
atheist
October 1st, 2009
6:50 am
Too bad these Christians have so little knowledge of their own belief system. If they bothered to read the bible, the could find out exactly what Jesus thought of public prayers:
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
(Matthew 6:5-6)
catlady
October 1st, 2009
6:57 am
The cheerleaders sponsor must have the brain of an ant.
Hanie: what if they wanted to use verse you would call “non-positive?” Like “Kill the infidels” or something? Is that okay? Is THAT protected speech.
I get tired of our school system cramming religion (Baptist) down our throats through prayers at meetings, etc. And yes, I am a Christian. But, like Tony, I don’t think the word of the Lord should be trivialized. What’s next? Biblical slogans on the CRCT pencils? How about the toilet paper?
catlady
October 1st, 2009
7:00 am
Why is it you see the errors in spelling, grammar, or punctuation one nanosecond AFTER you hit
“submit”?
akhter
October 1st, 2009
7:55 am
Which Bible are you talking about??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDrObm8aotM
Jeff
October 1st, 2009
7:59 am
Also, I should point out that if we actually separated school and state, none of these issues would occur…