“Nah, I didn’t read the book, but I disagree with it.”
I had a long talk a few months with a high school teacher discouraged by the changes that he had seen in his classroom over the years. One change was the notion that everyone’s opinions — informed or not — were equal and that everyone deserved to be heard.
Rather than being seen as an expert, he was being told by the administration to serve more as a sounding board or, as Mary Grabar mentions in an op-ed piece today, a facilitator.
This man taught an AP class with lots of information and approached his class as a lecture; he had the information and felt his job was to impart it. Now, he is expected to give more class time over to student comments and discussion, even when the students don’t know the material.
I found his comments interesting because my son increasingly came home from his high-level high school classes complaining about teachers allowing kids to pontificate, even when it was clear that the classmate hadn’t read any of the material. My son said he would much rather hear from the teacher who knew the material than his classmates who didn’t.
I understand the need for teachers to foster debate and discussion. But are all opinion equal in the classroom?
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Guides
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2011 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
38 comments Add your comment
Jeff
September 14th, 2009
10:19 am
There is a time and place to be egalitarian with comments, but the classroom is neither the time nor the place. Classrooms are the place for subject matter experts to deliver facts, and everyone else can ask pertinent questions.
Now, something like say a blog or other political/public forum is a completely different story. There, egalitarianism should reign and people can then act as they wish on the comments they hear – so long as the Punch Principle is observed.
mift
September 14th, 2009
10:21 am
It really isn’t about class discussions and such. This teacher is complaining because he is a “lecturer” – the least effective teaching method. A master teacher would know how to facilitate student learning without these types of disruptive behaviors. Do you really think that this teacher is the source of all knowledge in this information age? Is information and knowledge acquisition a skill we want students to know how to perform as adults? After all who lectures to us as adults we need to know something new?
Ernest
September 14th, 2009
10:28 am
Like many, I grew up in a household with a set of encyclopedia’s, newspapers, and dictionaries. If a research project was given and I could not find enough information in the resources at home, we would go to the local library.
Fast forward to today, the kinds of research projects students are being asked to write today almost require using the Internet for research, especially if it is on current events. The content needed for the project more than likely does not exist in a book. One can get overwhelmed with the amount of information thus may need to review several sources to find a consensus on the topic.
To the point of the blog, teachers typically deliver their lecture from the content of the book and based on their previous experiences in delivering that topic. For a subject like history, the content is relatively static with the exception of new perspectives that may be added. The teacher should be seen as the ‘expert’ however should encourage in a ‘managed’ way discussion. I see that more as a ‘technique’ to involve students in the lesson. If it is obvious the students lack an understanding of the content during the discussion, I see it as the teachers responsibility to redirect. One will never know the value of an opinion if you don’t provide an opportunity to hear it.
what's right for kids?
September 14th, 2009
10:29 am
I think that student opinions definitely have a place in the classroom. However, the little darlings had better come to the table with something. Having read the material is a good start. Teachers can tell who has done the reading and who hasn’t just by listening to a couple of sentences being spoken. Then we cut the child off and let someone who has actually read the material speak.
Maureen Downey
September 14th, 2009
10:31 am
mift, Given the amount of content that has to be covered in AP courses, how much time can be allotted for discussion?
Dunwoody Mom
September 14th, 2009
10:37 am
This is an AP class – a college-level course. Granted, it’s been a few years since I was in college, but lecturing is what you get in most college classrooms.
mift
September 14th, 2009
10:56 am
I think we have to get past “spray and pray”- spray information and hope they get it. We have to allow students the opportunity to create meaning from the information presented. After all, is that not how we learn in the “real world”?
oldtimer
September 14th, 2009
11:25 am
Projects, group activities, etc take so much more time than a lecture. There is a timeand place for both, but in an AP class there is just too much information.
Lisa B. (jim d's sister)
September 14th, 2009
11:37 am
Allowing students to pontificate about those things of which they are ignorant is just pooling ignorance, but this is the way of modern public education. The teacher is no longer the authority. Hey “oldtimer,” that Blackberry is causing you to mess up your grammar, spelling, etc. Quit blogging in class; blog after school.
V for Vendetta
September 14th, 2009
12:03 pm
No they’re not. There are many students who could benefit from the ” . . . open your mouth and remove all doubt” saying. However, in our egalitarian public school system, a child’s opinion has become sacrosanct. Children are children, no matter how opinionated they are, and the teacher is at the head of the class for a reason. Aside from all of the naysayers who base their opinions of teachers off of one negative encounter or news story, the majority of parents would agree that, as the adult professional in the room, the teacher needs to be the one in control of the conversation. A student who did not read the book/study the material has no contribution to make. If he’s smart enough to contribute to the conversation without divulging the fact that he didn’t do the assignment, he obviously has enough inherent knowledge of the subject to make well-informed comments. This is not uncommon, either.
But more and more often we are allowing students with no knowledge of a subject to commandeer the conversation at the expense of their feelings or beliefs–both of which are irrelevant to their understanding of the curriculum. This happens quite often in upper level science and government classes where students’ ingrained mystical beliefs or the political influences of their parents take precedence over the facts.
Ignorance is what we are trying to wipe out. We should not be condoning it.
V for Vendetta
September 14th, 2009
12:06 pm
mift,
And how did your college profs conduct class? AP courses are meant to have the rigor of a college course. The teaching methods should reflect that.
Larry
September 14th, 2009
12:41 pm
Yes, differing opinions are equal, provided they are actual opinions based on facts. If you don’t know the facts, you can’t possibly form an opinion; you can only speculate, fantasize and waste other folks’ time.
Last week, one of your competitors ran a half page “editorial” sharply criticizing the suggested lesson plans provided for the President’s school address. The problem was, he actually said “reportedly” when referencing the lesson plans. This twit hammered out 33 column inches without bothering to read the two page document he criticized.
Bad enough the duller public sector engages in such destructive activity, but when it’s acceptable to publish editorial content based on nothing other than what someone else claims to exist, I’m forced to reconsider my position on involuntary sterilization.
Ignorance isn’t bliss – it’s simply ignorance.
Maureen's accountability metric
September 14th, 2009
12:48 pm
So we are saying that all the oral traditions, from cultures all over the world, where wisdom was passed down from the elders, were totally ineffective, because they didn’t take have the benefit of the latest educational “research”?
Maureen's accountability metric
September 14th, 2009
1:14 pm
“After all who lectures to us as adults we need to know something new?”
And of course this settles the argument, because no one, anywhere, has ever voluntarily gone to hear a speaker thinking they could learn something new, right?
mift
September 14th, 2009
2:35 pm
Who said it was good instruction in college? Look- it is no secret that lecture teachers resist teaching in more effective ways because it takes to much effort and they believe they are the center of teh universe when it comes to their content. There are just so many ways to engage students in ways that are more meaningful to students. I am not saying that allowing students to take over your classroom with non-sensical ramblings is an effective teaching method but the last think I want my high schooler exposed to are the two extremes we are debating today.
Jeff
September 14th, 2009
2:47 pm
mift:
When a student can show me how to do an isomorphism without any assistance from anyone ever teaching him, he has my blessing to talk as much as he wants in my class.
Until then, he is to sit there, pay attention to me, and ask any relevant questions he needs to. *I* am the subject matter expert in that classroom – not him.
In the words of the Master Chief (from GI Jane, not Halo): “When I want your opinion, I’ll give it to ya.”
Again, this only goes for the classroom. As I said above, in political debates or other public forums, things SHOULD be much more egalitarian. But inside the classroom, when the goal is the acquisition of knowledge, the teacher is RIGHTFULLY a dictator, because the teacher IS the SME in the room.
mift
September 14th, 2009
3:05 pm
Jeff
I hate that you have that attitude. This approach has given us the results we have so far in the US. Students can recall “knowledge” you provide but they just are unable to use it or understand it. They may be able to do well on a test but how well do they do in life long after you are gone? Sad.
Jeff
September 14th, 2009
3:33 pm
mift:
Actually, what YOU put forth has given us the crap we have now.
My style is what put boots on the moon.
Tony
September 14th, 2009
4:19 pm
I taught chemistry and physics before becoming a principal. In that classroom, I was the expert. There was material to be learned, and reading and homework were expected from the students. My job was to make sure students were learning. This includes sharing new information in a way that made sense to the students (lecturing), structuring activities that caused students to practice (solving problems, homework, labs), and listening to students to assess their level of understanding.
Chemistry and physics were not opinion oriented courses, and neither is math, as Jeff has pointed out. The teachers are hired (I hope) because they are experts.
Students should not be granted “equal time” just to run their mouths. This is a waste of time for the ones in the room who actually want to learn. A principal that fosters this kind of environment is ill-informed and the teachers should call him/her on it.
With that said, there are teaching strategies too often ignored by teachers because they are too lazy to do the preparation. An AP class should not be 100% lecture. The teacher should have other learning strategies in place for the students, but the teacher should still be the one in charge.
Students who “don’t read the book” should earn appropriate grades, too. My two kids hated the mindless work assigned by teachers, but they always enjoyed good discussions about what they read in literature. They did not like having their time wasted by kids that did not know the material. As adults, we shouldn’t put up with either.
mift
September 14th, 2009
4:27 pm
Hopeless
lecture lover
September 14th, 2009
5:44 pm
I guess I’m in the minority, but I always enjoyed lecture classes – I hated being put in a group and having to foster some stupid discussion over what ever was the topic of the day. While I had some dreary profs, I had some whose lectures were great – entertaining, informative, etc. For the record, I graduated magna cum laude, so it must’ve worked for me.
Maureen Downey
September 14th, 2009
5:49 pm
lecture lover, I agree with you, at least with regards to college. I had some great lecturers and loved listening to them. But in high school, I would loved more hands-on learning opportunities. With the exception of bio and chemistry, I don’t think I did too many hands-on activities in my classes. Nor do I recall a lot of group discussion.
Rosie
September 14th, 2009
5:59 pm
We are spoon feeding kids in elementary, middle and high schools. Students are leaving high school unprepared for college and the real world. In college and the work place information is delivered in lecture format. We are to take the information and apply it without rubrics, graphic organizers, word walls, etc. More time is spent on worrying about teaching strategies than actual factual information students need to know. I want my child to have the teacher with the most knowledge of the subject matter, not the teacher with the most teaching strategies.
ScienceTeacher671
September 14th, 2009
6:08 pm
Lecture is not currently “politically correct,” but it is the most efficient way to transmit large quantities of knowledge.
As Tony mentioned, students in science classes also need practice working problems, and plenty of hands-on lab activities.
old teach
September 14th, 2009
6:38 pm
When I went to college, I believed I was paying …a rather high price…. for the professors to impart their knowledge or to help me discover the knowledge in my chosen field. That was actually what I experienced in undergrad school where I majored in a subject…not in Education…at a college with quite an academic reputation.
However, when I decided I wanted to teach, and began classes toward my Masters Degree in education , I found that , at least at the university which I attended, that almost ALL of the classes involved the students in the class preparing and presenting their “take” on whatever subject was at hand. The professors in all these classes sat there while the students , for all practical purposes, taught the class. I have since come to believe that this is part of the problem with education today.
old teach
September 14th, 2009
6:39 pm
Post eater at work!!!!
ScienceTeacher671
September 14th, 2009
7:13 pm
I’ve noticed that most of the “professional development” courses we have to attend on what used to be known as “planning days” consists of lecture interspersed with silly games.
Maureen Downey
September 14th, 2009
7:20 pm
ScienceTeacher 671, I would love to talk about the quality of professional development sometime. I had a friend who described the courses she had to take as “vacuous and hollow.”
Of late, however, teachers have reported great improvements in the relevance and helpfulness of their professional development courses. Has there been a change?
Maureen
Tony
September 14th, 2009
7:29 pm
Rosie – I have seen some of the most knowledgeable people try to teach and they could not communicate a single point such that kids could understand them. Without teaching strategies that are effective, kids will not learn.
d
September 14th, 2009
7:59 pm
I try to keep my lecture days to a minimum but sometimes, I do have to just say here’s what you need to know. I try to make it relevant and turn it into a discussion and ask students to relate the material to their real life with some success depending on the student. I allow the students to work in group settings to come up with a solution, but too frequently other distractions work their way into the group discussions and I have to redirect. I don’t mind doing this, but just think how much more they would learn if they had not strayed to begin with. Frankly, I think the students, even at the high school level, need some mental time down to blow some steam. What I do worry about though is when my students enter college next year (and I polled them, 100% are planning on going to a 2- or 4-year college next year) what are they going to do when they get into a lecture hall and don’t have the hands on simulations that I try to do.
Rural Education
September 14th, 2009
8:36 pm
I teach AP and IB and the format is Lecture/Discussion, with a heavy dose of writing. The sheer volume of material that has to be covered does not lend itself to anything else. I have never favored “group” projects and most of my students don’t like them either.
ScienceTeacher671
September 14th, 2009
8:49 pm
Maureen, generally the district schedules the professional development courses, so whether or not there has been a change probably depends upon where one is located. In our district, we haven’t noticed much, if any, change. Frequently, if there is useful information, it could be presented in 1/4-1/2 of the time allotted, but the presenter has to fill up the entire time so we’ll have enough contact hours – I suspect that is part of the reason for the silly games, but maybe they think we need “hands on activities” like the kids do.
ScienceTeacher671
September 14th, 2009
9:40 pm
And “I didn’t read the book but I disagree with it” reminds me of the people who were opposed to President Obama’s speech to the schoolchildren….
free market educator
September 14th, 2009
11:22 pm
My child’s ITBS scores for 7th grade (he is just starting 8th) were 96th percentile in language, 99th percentile in math total, 99th percentile in core total, 96 percentile in science, and 98th percentile composite. In our home school we combine traditional lecture style videos, less formal classes which I directly teach, some hands-on projects, and a few home school co-op classes. I also use computer drills for things such as geography, foreign language and spelling. My children pepper me with questions constantly, and I have taught them to “google it”. It is amazing how much information they pick up in this manner because they are already motivated to learn the answer. This year we are working on taking notes from lectures, keeping organized, and developing effective study skills. I remind them that in college, profs are hired for their knowledge and expertise;many lectures will have information not found in the text so they must right it down. Developing rote memorization skills in the early grades is invaluable. As the volume of material increases in the 7th and 8th grades, they can learn it quickly and keep it up.
V for Vendetta
September 14th, 2009
11:23 pm
ScienceTeacher671,
I agree with your assessment of professional development.
Maureen,
To quite succinctly answer your question: no, it hasn’t changed much at all. Professional development remains an enormous drain on teachers’ time and energy–both of which could be better spent planning, grading, or tutoring.
free market educator
September 15th, 2009
1:57 am
Oops! Make that right “write”.
Tony
September 15th, 2009
8:45 am
Some of the blog comments today may make into my current research project. The study I am conducting has to do with effectiveness of professional development for teachers. As a principal, I do not want to squander the time of teachers because time is a precious resource. Once the time is used, you can’t get it back. Poorly designed and frivilous staff development not only robs teachers of their time, but it robs students of their time, too.
Andrew Pass
September 15th, 2009
9:34 pm
Not all opinions are equal. However, the classroom teacher has a responsibility to solicit opinions from students. These opinions should be informed, however, informed by reading and thinking. But the classroom teacher’s responsibility does not end there. Instead he/she must challenge even the most informed students to refine their thoughts based on insight thoughts and perspectives.
http://www.lessontech.blogspot.com