Put an income cap on who qualifies for HOPE Scholarships

TN also has a minimum ACT score requirement. A problem with income caps is that a teacher and a cop parents would leave a student unable to receive the HOPE scholarship. Our children were not able to receive any help other than loans. We really never made a lot of money and helping with college, even with HOPE was a struggle.

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Put a limit on the pay and spending of the lottery personel……. Use the money for it’s intent……Students !

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I agree with Laura. Hope should be a reward to those students who work hard to qualify and keep the grades required for eligiblity for the scholarship. Besides, there are many more scholarships and grants available and specifically targeted to those who need finanical assistance.

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Absolutely, set a high income cap. HOPE was originally envisioned as a means to help good, but not stellar students (B average), who were not likely to win academic scholarships and whose family income, while not high, was too high to qualify for much, if any, financial aid. I have no problem with it being a combination academic achievement/needs based award. I believe Emory has developed program specifically for middle class families making up to $100,000. HOPE could have a scale based on family income and total number of family members. I think its perfectly reasonable for that financial aid to be denied to, for example, a family with one child that makes $200,000 per year in order to have aid available for a child from a family making $50,000.

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I agree, Laura.

C’mon, Maureen, you’re smarter than this, right? If the question is one of money, the only fair solution is to make the HOPE scholarship more academically exclusive. Despite having used the HOPE myself, I’ve always thought that a 3.0 GPA was a bit low to earn such a monumental reward–value for value, remember. The GPA requirement could be raised and a testing requirement added–maybe with two options for both the SAT and ACT. Combined with the testing requirements, I would hope that would put the HOPE out of the reach of grade inflation; however, that would NOT put the HOPE out of the reach of the moochers.

The past few days, the moochers have proven me right time and again by demonstrating something that is a given when dealing with a belief system such as theirs: No matter what is handed over to them, they will always demand more from the producers–i.e., the people of ability. They will never be satisfied as long as someone exists who has something that they don’t have. It’s really that simple.

We’re seeing it now with the HOPE scholarship. Because they are unable to EARN the scholarship, the moochers must find a way to take it by force. They claim that their lack of money is a sufficient claim on the funds of the HOPE scholarship, that the families who could pay for the children’s education don’t deserve to use the HOPE, and that academic achievement is not a fair arbiter of ability. Once again, their rhetoric amounts to “I’m emtiteld to what you have for no other reason than I don’t have it.” Is there anything more base and immoral than that?

There is only one way to stop a moocher; it is, of course, the same way in which you would stop a parasite: you must remove the source of its nourishment. By raising the achievement level required for the HOPE and adding a testing requirement, the scholarship will be preserved and well beyond the grasp of the moochers. Were that to happen, the moochers cries would be immediate and desperate, seeking more entitlements and values with nothing to offer in return.

“I saw that evil was impotent…and the only weapon of its triumph was the willingness of the good to serve it.” – John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

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I hate big gummint socialism.

But

I need the HOPE skolarship dun take it away.

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$100,000 doesn’t go far when you have more than one or two children to put through college.

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It’s simple. Take the total dollars collected by Hope and divide by the number of eligible students. Send the students a check for that amount.

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HOPE staff should find a way to decrease the eligibility WITHOUT counting income as a factor. You make a few solid suggestions, including SAT/ACT minimums and/or class rank. You could also increase the eligibility out of high school OR make the requirements for maintaining HOPE more stringent. As a graduate of a GA public university I can vouch that maintaining a 3.0 gpa is not all that hard if you go to class and study 6-8 hours a week.

As others have said, a child can only affect how they do in school, not how much their parents make. And although some “middle-class” folks would like to believe children of the affluent are handed everything, it is not always the case. Why should those whose parents do not provide 100% support be penalized with student loans when others aren’t?

Take a quick example. Child A’s parents make $101,000 per year and therefore child does not qualify. Parents put themselves through college and therefore do not assist child. Child leaves school with $40k in debt. Child B’s parents make $99,000 per year and do qualify for HOPE. Child gets tuition and book stipend, borrows for living expenses, and leaves school with $10k in student loans. How is this scenario fair for either Child A or his parents?

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what about it-

How could you possibly know that your sons were more qualified for UGA than “others?” I seriously doubt that if they had these scores they’d be denied entry. Is it possible they just weren’t qualified and you’re using evil affirmative action as an excuse?

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The criteria needs to be raised for these scholarships. A 3.0 GPA might be an accomplishment in high school, but if you graduate with a 3.0 in college, essentially you’re a borderline loser that either didn’t dedicate enough of your time to your studies, or you were in over your head and shouldn’t have been in college in the first place.

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HOPE needs to remain achievement based if we want to keep the state’s brightest here….and ONLY achievement based. I do agree with the writer that the qualfications should be raised because stats show that too many HOPE recipients never finish college. 1/3 of recipients fail to get the grades to even re-qualify for year 2.

That tells me that there are a lot of unqualified students receiving the funds and I would bet a lot of it comes from grade inflation at the high school level. Which is why college entrance exam scores should be included in the criteria.

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catlady, I could go with your suggestion from 12:02 combined with a sliding scale award based income. How about 50% of the award based on grades and 50% based on income? A student from a lower income family with good grades can get a maximum 100% award. A student from an affluent family with good grades can get a maximum 50% award. You could also set it such that any additional scholarships earned will be deducted from the award IF 100% of fees are already covered. This would provide the student from the affluent family an opportunity to secure additional scholarships to reach the 100% level.

From a historical standpoint again, the lottery was ’sold’ to citizens as a means to provide higher education opportunities to lower income students. Ironically, it did not pass by a large margin. It was expanded to allow all students to participate however the demand for awards may soon exceed the funds available.

Interestingly, I recall many calling the lottery a ‘tax on ignorance’ primarily based upon where the greatest sales took place.

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another welfare program… heck no. my children have worked their tails off to be eligible for the HOPE and there is not way i’m going to let it be based on income or diluted academic scoring found in metro atlanta.

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Looks like this is proposing the middle class lose out again. I guess it doesn’t matter what kind of grades and/or intelligence those who earn below a middle class wage actually achieve. As long as they don’t make much money, they can qualify for HOPE, financial aid, all kinds of grants, etc. And the middle class have to take out student loans at ridiculous interest rates that take years to pay off.

And why is it that there seems to be an assumption that every child’s parents are paying for their higher education when this is simply not the case? There are too many students in college who graduate with student loan debt that are still paying down in their 30s.

I don’t think an income cap is the answer here.

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@ mdowney (11:49)

Thank you for bringing up the original intention of HOPE. When looking at this from the prospective of this being a scholarship for high achieving / lower income that by not having funding would be a deal breaker is significant. That said and being there are always budget limitations, focusing on the highest potential students that ultimately would likely never attend school and directly enter the work force is the biggest contribution that could be made.

As much as I would like to see no income limit, because I think the middle class get shafted when it comes to paying for college, perhaps we’re looking at mid-to-high achieving SATs (ex. top 25% bracket), combined with a top 25% bracket GPA at their school and a bottom 25% bracket from an income perspective (this might more realistically mean <50k, even 35k).

Students that can break through that have these type of stats encompass the American dream.

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As a teacher at a 2-year school, I see a trremendous number of students who test into learning support classes (math, English & reading – these students receive HOPE! HOPE should cover college credit, not high school courses. Let these students pay for the learning support courses and then if they have a 3.0 average, HOPE can kick in. This may also encourage students to work hard in highschool.

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Just cut paying for ANYTHING besides tuition. There is no need to pay for anything else. If people are poor enough they can easily qualify for grants for the remaining amount. Also, ANYBODY can qualify for loans for the full remaining costs.

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You are correct. I’d like to throw something at you! So, let’s shaft the people who work hard and have been able to earn a little more than the average. Let’s ensure only rural or urban groups are given any support and forget the suburban families. Of course, you should never reward hard work and doing the right thing. Let’s only help those that strive to be the lowest common denominator.

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What I have learned in my brief existence on this earth is that the rich always want to get richer at the expense of the poor. I think the lottery money should be allocated to sudents in schools in the areas that spend the most on the lottery.The more money that area invests in the lottery the more Hope assistance a student from that area can get. Thats ruural and urban. Suburban areas would get whats left because they invest the least in it because they are “Successful” and worked hard to get there. The same way affluent communities form their own cities to keep their tax dollars in their communities. As long as they benefit HOPE scholarships are great because their kids can get some of the pie of which they put very little into. It is ridiculous to hear people on this blog tlak like they are affected by any change in HOPE funding. Your child will just have to do without a car on campus because you spent their college savings on school rather than a car or off campus housing. Stop the madness I say.

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No income caps! Raise the GPA requirement and hold high school teachers more accountable for teaching students and find way to discourage grade inflation.

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Maureen, congrats. You’ve just summarized what’s wrong with this state’s gifted education program. Why just have the students who have the IQs and test scores who are gifted? No, let’s get the kids in there who *try*. Giftedness is no longer the psychological blessing it was once considered – now anyone can do it!

Not everyone can do college, upper, lower, or middle class. College needs to be about those who can succeed in it. I had a bunch of middle class friends who couldn’t pass muster, and they dropped out. They were what you would deem “advantaged,” I suppose.

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Come on people – the HOPE scholarship was created to give those who wouldn’t necessarily go to college an opportunity to go. It is NOT an academic scholarship – stop trying to make it one!! If we establish higher GPA’s as a requirement for HOPE – then we have defeated the purpose of the scholarship. Students with GPA’s higher than 3.0 most often qualify for academic scholarships and don’t need HOPE and if they are using it, it is merely a supplement. Base it on ACT/SAT scores – really – what about those who are bad testers like me – should I be disqualified because I only scored a 21 on the ACT? Rank in class is inconsequential considering there is a minimum 3.0 GPA requirement – so that is a moot point. When we start putting academic restrictions beyond the current requirement – we cut a large pool of indviduals who would be eligible and award scholarships to those who can easily obtain other academic scholarships in their own right.

I believe looking at an income cap with consideration for the number of family members is an appropriate avenue to pursue. This would eliminate scholarships for students whose parents can easily afford college for their children.

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One of the greatest benefits of the HOPE program has been the retention of high-achieving, middle class students in GA colleges. When HOPE first started just about anyone could get into UGA. The program has been an excellent deterrent for brain-drain, which has strengthened our work force.

From the program’s beginning, it seemed as if politicians just couldn’t stand to see all that lottery money going to education. Not that they are opposed to education, necessarily, but because it’s the only money available that isn’t tied to a tax of some kind. So, when it comes time to fund a new program for some politician’s local district or special interest – they look to that big pot of money.

The economy is beginning to make slow strides toward a recovery and this “crisis” will be non-existent in a few months. Let’s just ride this out and the lottery numbers will increase again… just like every other time we’ve heard this in the past!

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Let start by stopping local goverments from using HOPE to train their employees. Some fire departments have stopped training their own EMTs and Paramedics inhouse. They have worked out deals with the Tech Colleges to send their recruits to them for training on HOPE. It not unusal for fire departments to send 20-30 recruits in one class for training all on HOPE. All this mandatory training was once done within the departments. These local goverments are shifting the cost of training their fire fighters onto the state and HOPE.

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The middle class suffers more from lack of college funding than the low income class who qualify for financial aid and federal grants. A salary of $100k for a family of 6 is hardly rich when it comes to a college price tag of 10K++ per year with NO finacial aid. What HOPE does is to keep our best performing students IN-STATE. These students go on to graduate and become contributing members of our society. If you must limit the funds, add other criteria besides GPA, but don’t punish the middle class who is already facing so many other financial burdens.

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HOPE is supposed to help kids who otherwise cannot attend college, but how can you base that on their parents’ incomes? As one astute writer mentioned above, a kid with parents who are teachers or cops/firefighters would not qualify under your plan. A better idea would be to limit the scholarships to the funds available each year (pay as you go) and base the amount each student can receive on merit and need.

Consider a plan that does not automatically pay 100% of all tuition and fees, but a sliding scale based on financial need (as other government scholarships and grants do). Also consider basing the amount a student receives on merit – the HOPE plan’s minimums are way too low. Finally, consider a plan that MATCHES what a student is able to get elsewhere – either through on-campus jobs, other scholarships, etc.

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Our agreement with our kids was that they had to pay their tuition, whether by HOPE or loans, and we would pay room/board if they were serious. It is our belief that when you have to earn something or pay for it yourself, you will work harder to keep it. Too often kids go off to school with Mom & Dad footing the bill and have a good old time and do very poorly in the first year as they adjust to life on their own. Often the parents respond by revoking the funds, the kids move back home and go to community college until they grow up enough to figure out that’s not what they want. HOPE is a great opportunity to put young adults on the right path of earning their own way and becoming responsible citizens.

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“You *are* working for this money, or do you consider what students taking 6 AP exams a year not work?”

They should be able to take AP exams and hold a job if their parents won’t pay. My parents worked hard, saved $200K, and put me through private college. Why should other people (especially those who never shut up about personal responsibility) get a handout?

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Robin Hood was a common thief who didn’t qualify for MENSA. Stealing from the poor is, to anyone with functioning neurotransmitters, an obviously futile venture.

Since you had the wisdom to ask for a better plan I’ll give it a shot:

1) Make HOPE a reimbursement program for everyone, just like it exists for home schooled kids.

2) Use your income qualification of 100 grand, or whatever, to make an exception to Rule 1 (I’m starting to sound like the IRS) for families who couldn’t possibly afford the first semester.

Still thinking about chasing you down Marietta Street…

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Hey Maureen, why don’t you write a check back to the state for that free tuition your kid got!

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Whats wrong with a job requirement?

Its not discriminating against anyone for the amount of money they have or anything else. If you want the HOPE, you must show your pay stubs showing that you work a minimum of 20 hours a week.

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Putting an income limit on HOPE is the worst thing that can happen in Georgia. Why do you penalize a child who did everything that was asked of him or her and made the grades required because his parents are successful? Why do you penalize parents who have worked hard to make a good income by saying their child doesn’t deserve a scholarship. Grants, scholarships and aid are plentiful already out there for low income families. The families who earn more deserve scholarship assistance too.

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mscutie78…. Seem to miss the point… HOPE has stopped being about education and is about MAKING MONEY. The colleges are making so much money on EMT classes, they are exploring performing firefighter training. Is it becasue they can do a better job than the fire departments. Or is it so they can make money. If you are so willing to pay for this training to save your life, allow local goverments to raise you taxes and perform this training within the departments. Perhaps then we will have enough HOPE to training some nurses or doctors.

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I think ALL college students should have a part time job.

I actually mentor a lot of high school students and I am always preaching to them that they need to work too. If you are 16 or older, you should have a pay check of some kind.

The worst thing that any parent can do for their child is to let them go through school and never work. If your very first job is the one that you get when you graduate college, you will be ill prepared for that experience.

I have a friend who graduated near the top of his class in law school. After obtaining a job as a junior associate in a firm, he called me to complain, “My boss is always telling me what to do”. He had never delivered pizza, dug a ditch, life guarded, or anything in his life and he failed miserably in his career.

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I’m all for an income cap. So, I have an idea . . . let’s take cash from the poor and send students, many of whom would be able to afford college (I consider repaying loans “affording”), to in state schools. This way, their parents can spend college money on cars instead. There is no justice in this. Yes, people who buy lottery tickets have to accountable for their poor spending, but we’ve set up a system that steals from the poor and gives it to the middle and upper class. Ridiculous.

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mscutie – You should also be disqualified for your idiotic posts on this blog. Please submit your name and address to the HOPE administrators for immediate revocation of future privileges.

You don’t think college kids should have to work 20 hours a week? Let’s do a little math exercise.
Total hours in a week = 168
Hours of sleep @ 8 hrs/night = 56
Hours to eat @ 3 hrs/day = 21
Hours of school (at full load) = 15
Hours remaining = 76, or more than 10 hours per day.

After the 20 hour PT job requirement, you would still have 56 hours during the week to study, play, or do whatever (read – 8 hours per day). If you can’t succeed in college with that much time then you either don’t belong in college or scored less than a 22 on the ACT (or both).

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I totally agree with Teacher’s comment. Without HOPE neither my children nor myself could have attended college I make roughly $50K per year and was told by FAFSA that I could afford to pay $5-10K per year for BOTH of my children to attend college. Puhleese!.

I told both my kids to work hard, keep your GPA up so that you don’t lose HOPE. I will not be able to make up the difference, it will be on your dime. You know what – they did! Plus, I returned to school 3 years ago. I worked my tail off to get my 30 credit hours with a (pat on the back) 4.0 to “earn” HOPE. I had to take remedial classes having been out of school for so long, gain 30 credit hours with the prerequisite 3.0 to qualify. I paid myself for those first 30 hours. But I had incentive to do well.

It shocked me that students out of high school, qualified for the HOPE (3.0) and were taking those remedial classes with me. Then after a semester or two, they lost HOPE and guess what? You guessed it – dropped out. I think a better way to manage is to say, we will give EVERYBODY HOPE. Here’s your chance. Equal opportunity. Even pay for the remedial. BUTif you don’t earn a 3.0 – it turns into a loan and you must pay it back. Then maybe we wouldn’t waste millions on students who only go a semester or two. I’ve seen it.

When you have to pay for something yourself or at least be on the hook for it, you certainly do work harder. As opposed to those, that have the mentality, it’s not my money, so what if I don’t go to class, study, etc. etc. Therein lies the problem.

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I am so tired of people saying ” if you make 200k ” ,you should pay for school or pay more taxes. What you don’t realize is 200k gross is very different from the net take home pay . I already contribute more to state taxes ,federal taxes ,county taxes than most people ,but I am far from being rich. I raise 3 children and they should not be discriminated against because of my income. I would really like to see where all that lottery money went .I guarantee it did not all go for scholarships and books. I have worked very hard for what I have and i will not apologize for what I have accomplished and I do not think I should be penalized.

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HOPE scholarships should not be based on income and should be used as it’s orginial intent was – college bound students NOT pre-K. Do away with the pre-K program…..and the basis for what a family should pay towards their childs college is completely wrong — families have bills; they claim we should be apying $26,000 towards my daughters college and we live from paycheck to paycheck. My daughter also does not live at home and supports her own working a full time job along with attending college; but we have to use our income as a basis on her FASFA forms until she is 24 when others get handouts from the government because of their race.

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Eliminate the pre-K program first. Why should we use those funds to cover peoples daycare? How much does a 4 year old really learn in pre-K?

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if anyone wants to use HOPE, they should take a standardized test. depending upon the funds available, the top number “x” get to have it. your GPA will be averaged among all other students from your school taking the test. if you have a higher GPA, you get a multiplier, a lower, a deducter. all numbers are computed and the winners get HOPE. everyone else, should have studied.

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How about simply raising the requirements? Increasing the minimum GPA to say 3.25 would quickly reduce the number of qualifying students. Keeping the middle class as part of the Hope scholarship program encourages young intelligent students to stay in the Georgia school system, keeping talent in-state. Please note, this comment in no way is meant to say that certain social classes are intellectually superior than others. It just means that if you take this scholarship option away from in-state students, more intellectually gifted individuals will begin leaving for out-of-state schools.

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$100k a year is NOT RICH!!!

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I go to GT and I am 5th year. I get HOPE because I have worked to keep my 3.7+ GPA. I have friends who were valedictorians of their high schools in GA lost hope their first year. My parents saved me and my sister some money for undergrad and combined with my co-op semesters for additional funds; I will get out of here in May debt free and with some of my own cash for graduate school. My parents are conservative spenders and make maybe when fully employed 120k a year.

Why should I be prevented HOPE when I am on my own and do work hard but my parents make enough to “give” me a College education. Without HOPE in May, I would be starting my professional life with a student loan of 25k+.

Also a someone mentioned above that off campus housing is more expensive… That is BS at georgia tech. To live as an upperclassmen for a semester in one of the on campus options is about 3300 a semester solely for the housing. My apartment with the same space one street over is 1500 w/ utilities. I cook my own food for about 600 a semester instead of 1400 a semester meal plan.

Additionally if you receive HOPE and still can’t afford the campus life… COMMUTE (if possible).. It is significantly cheaper to drive than it is to room and board on campus (I just can’t stand living at home anymore)

A college education is not a right, and not everyone belongs in college. At Tech, if you do not work at your engineering classes, you will NOT keep it..a 3.0 is hard to come by here.

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The unintended consequences of HOPE are several: grade inflation in high schools, kids going to college who really have no “hope” of success, and, worst of all, a proliferation of “proprietary” colleges (i.e., “for profit” schools) that trade on the HOPE scholarship and federally subsidized loans and offer students little in return. So, I agree: let’s make it based on parent and/or student income and assets, but let’s don’t set the income amounts at a level that squeezes out middle income people, who tend to PAY for everything!

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Parent’s income should be of no importance whether or not a child receives a Hope Scholarship. There are some wealthy parents that cut their children off financially as soon as they finish high school or others that end up losing a business, bad health, or some other financial tragedy. I also know a lot of upper middle class parents that paid their own way through college and expect junior to do the same. This is placing a child at a disadvantage based on a matter that is completely out of control, parents. If funds are tight then increase the standards. If Georgia wants a bright work force, we should focus on the most intelligent and motivated, not just the ones born to the wrong parents.

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Is that $100K before or after giving to charities? Another example of hard work and good deeds being punished. All this idea will ever promote is more laziness on the part of the parent. ALL kids who work hard should be awarded.

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Gwinnett Parent … if you don’t want the parents income in the equasion, you will have to remove it from all from the criteria of all funding sources. Student loans, grants, etc., all take the parents income to account.

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Conservative Hypocrisy,

I am NOT a Republican or a conservative by any means, but apparently that’s become an insult to anyone who advocates people doing stuff for themselves, so whatever.

Perhaps the individuals playing the lottery and wishing for a miracle should focus more on doing stuff to better themselves and less time throwing their money away on a pipe dream that will probably never come true.

BTW, you misread my taxation comment, which seeing as how you had a “point” to make does not shock me at all. I said that the lottery is LIKE a tax. Tax dollars go to public schools to help out students, so why should the lottery money NOT GO TO HELP STUDENTS AS WELL. Heck, you could say that it’s more justified than using tax dollars, because everyone knows what that money goes towards, wheras there are people being forced to pay property tax who no longer have children who are school aged or never had them to begin with. I never said that paying taxes entitled me to HOPE, but apparently you can’t read for context.

I paid for my masters MYSELF because that is something that I wanted to do. And, like many others, my family falls into that gray area of making too much to get grants and scholarships and the like, though I guess I could have always have used my ethnicity as a crutch and made my education based on something superficial like race and not based on what I can do as a person.

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Enter your comments here

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Of *course* there are calls to do away with the pre-K program and divert the money into HOPE. Middle-class families handle socialization and early exposure to reading and counting on their own; it’s only the lower-class families who really need pre-K.

Ultimately, too many people who were born on third base think they hit a home run. Here’s a tip: just because you worked hard for it doesn’t mean that you ONLY got it because you worked hard. There’s a difference between necessary and sufficient. Yes, it’s necessary to work hard to be successful… but it is not sufficient.

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1gadawg, you must have been kicked in the head by a horse. Liberal Socialism??? The vast majority of the state is conservative GOP. BTW, if you really want to show your conservative mettle then you should support doing away with the HOPE all together. Maybe take the money and put it towards K-12, and cut people’s property tax rates.

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Merit scholarships are also hard to come by. My son graduated with a 3.91 GPA. He took a total of nine AP classes in high school so he did not take all easy courses and he received NO scholarships except the Hope even though we applied to as many merit scholarshps as we could find. My husband and I make more then 100,000 a year and have three children. If we did not have the Hope it would be very difficult to put them thru college. Yes, they would still go but the Hope has made it just a little easier

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Add me to your surprise count of folks who think pre-k is a waste of money.

Had one kid in pre-k and one kid in quality day care. Can’t say I there was any difference between what the kids learned or the cost to me.

Available money should be put to a better use.

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Ms. S, thanks for playing the race card so well. You must be an experienced card player. who is playing entitlement whore now? i am poor and black. gimme, gimme, gimme. give us a break. i am pretty sure that I had nothing to do with racism in this country, considering that my family came here and worked as migrant farmworkers. but, my hispanc forefathers didnt bit*& and moan about how racism affected them. they didnt lament how they were victims. they didnt stand before their fellow americans and say they owed them. no, they worked their butts off, forced their children to read, had stable homes, and now, i can proudly say that all of my cousins and second cousins are college graduates, with many going to graduate or professional school.

And when I stand before God, I will proudly say that I can be counted among the proud of my family because what I accomplished was from my own blood, sweat and toil and not from any handouts.

Good day.

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Other states offer tiered programs that increase the award based on GPA/SAT etc. This methodology seems fair to me – also not every kid needs to go to a 4 year school. There are many that could make a great living in technical trades etc. that a pushed into programs where they eventually fail. What is the drop out rate for HOPE students in the first 2 years? Lets judge the program by that measure.

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Very ironic discussion. Place an income limit on who can PLAY the lottery…….

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How about only using lottery money for HOPE Scholarships and Pre-K. How many other non direct educational programs get money from the Ga Lottery. Thats is a story that needs to be written.

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Saving HOPE is a peice of cake—I’ve offered the solution time and again in these blogs.

Quit making it an entitlement and eliminate the millions spent every year on kids that don’t keep it. MAKE IT A Reimbursable

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mDowney, while she was it she could have also dropped an line to the board of regents asking why tuition was so high….

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I doubt anyone will scrolled down far enough to see this – but lets talk HOPE. I have seen a lot of posts talking about WHY it was initially created – they are all in some degree correct – but mostly wrong. HOPE was created by a politician up for re-election – period. Zell Miller in a move of political genius, created a way to woo the middle class and solidify himself with the largest voting block in the state – people who want a better life for their children. However, the HOPE scholarship has become exactly what it was intended to be – a middle class entitlement. The middle class, for better or worse, has come to depend on and expect the HOPE scholarship. Yes, we should help those less fortunate who want to succeed, but we should not punish a hard working student because of who his parents are.

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My solution would be to include the SAT with the GPA. At some point, if the SAT does not exceed a theshold the hope should only pay for a local community college. Too many of the kids are going to a 4 year college unprepared. Raising the GPA will lead to more grade inflation and not help the problem. The community colleges are less expensive than a 4 year school. If the student does well at the community college, they can transfer to the 4 year school to finsh. This should lower the cost and help student succeed. In Gwinnett, 20% of the student graduated with honors (90% or above: “A” average), what percentage had a “B” average? Grade inflation is widespread.

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I think we should tie the HOPE to a service program. Before students can get the money, they must serve full time in some form of services for 2 years. No income cap, just service requirement BEFORE they can get the benefit.

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Mdowney, that may be true but I believe I applied for the same internet and local scholarships but received nothing. My brother was in the same situation. I think he got maybe $500. My point is that people act like getting a scholarship is a breeze these days. That is not correct and we all know it. Also, some people struggle on the SAT and ACT. I was one of those people. I simply could not take standardized tests well, but I finished like 19th in a class 500 students in high school. The SAT proves nothing about a student’s work ethic and character. Therefore, I went to a smaller school and then transferred to Tech.

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Mo,

Gotta dis with you–there is money out there if a kid will turn over the right rocks.

a lot of corporations have scholarship programs open to the general public, then there’s money available for certain areas of study, there are Military contracts, as well as the academys, in short there is a lot of private money available that goes untouched every year. Hope has at the very least stiffled young minds from searching and applying for these funds based soley on the eazze of getting the HOPE. Stop it from being an entitlement and you’s still have classrooms full of students–they would be studemts more capable perhaps of critical thinking.

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To those individuals who are protesting that HOPE is stealing from the poor to give to the middle-class, I ask…who is forcing individuals to buy lottery tickets? If individuals from lower income areas could establish their own “locally owned” college fund and put the money they spend on lottery tickets in that fund would they do it?

As for those who are against taking HOPE money away from Pre-K programs I encourage you to ask for data that supports the success of these programs. In the years since the program’s inception there is no research that shows it is a value to our kids. Perhaps a better use of that money would be to divert it to a need-based daycare program. It would cost less and keep the HOPE money going to advance the education of all kids who put forth the effort when it will actually be of value to them.
Finally, everyone needs to get off the class warfare bandwagon or Atlas will eventually shrug! And yes, if it continues many of us middle-class folks will work exhaustively to find ways to keep as much of our middle-class money in our communities as possible.

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mdowney,

I see that your children utilize the HOPE scholarship yet advocate a $100,000 income limit. You are free to decline HOPE but choose not to. Why is that?

Everyone should realize that they are discussing who has legitimate claim to corrupt funds. The GA Lottery is nothing but a government monopoly on gambling.

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You are correct – HOPE first had an income threshhold. I was one of the parents who protested this – I think at the time it was approximately $75,000. How far do you think that amount goes when you’re educating 3 children? Your idea that middle class children do not deserve this assistance makes me sick. Why should the children of hardworking, dual income families be penalized? Your idea is another case of giving more, more, more to the “underprivileged.” Give me a break. The middle class are the backbone of our society.

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The newer research on pre-k is that by thrid grade those without pre-k have “caught up” with their peers. It is popular with parents and provides good child care.
HOPE was intended for ALL GA teenagers who earned it. Now, let’s make high schools more accountable with grades. Maybe counties should pay for students who have the HOPE and must take remedial classes.

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Rich, that’s so we can sell more lottery tickets.

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common sense, you may want to check your history. Zell Miller introduced legislation for the lottery for HOPE in 1991, after he was inaugurated as governor. Many may not realize many the intangible benefits this scholarship brought to the state, especially in the area of jobs. We have legitimate concerns about our K-12 infrastructure as a whole but many feel we have some of the top research/higher education institutions in the country. This is evident by the recent rankings of top colleges/universities by various publications. What the ranking do not indicated is that many of the students at these schools are from Georgia. Can one make a circular assumption and say that perhaps our K-12 are doing better than we think given the kudos given to our colleges/universities?

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Thanks Mo,

your myth buster link while correcting my one assertion validates others on scholarship availability.

and as mr. Carmichael states “Determination might not be the most glamorous talent in the world, but it works! ”

my opinon how it should work.
state should grant HOPE loans that would be forgiven with a given GPA
don’t pull the grade–pay back with interest.

A very simple plan that would WORK and damn well if i may say so.

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I like Reality 2’s idea of requiring some services before students receive HOPE. I think it does two thing. First, students will be more mature. I think the main reason many do not succeed in college is their maturity. Having some service experiences will definitely help. Second, such a requirement will make students (and their families) consider the option more carefully. Some will decide to go ahead and send kids to college right away – with loans, etc. Others will opt to wait two years. Who knows, those students might find something they really want to study in those two years.

The services can include working as teachers’ aids in schools, too. That might be an added benefit.

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Good grief. Where should I start dispelling all of this ignorance:

Laura — Glad you paid for your masters. But here are your words: “Perhaps the individuals playing the lottery and wishing for a miracle should focus more on doing stuff to better themselves and less time throwing their money away on a pipe dream that will probably never come true.”

Funny how it’s OK for you to preach to the individuals playing the lottery, while at the same time taking THEIR money for YOUR benefit! There was no need for me to read your post for context because you effectively made my point with your own words. Whether the lottery is “like” a tax or not, it’s still a “pseudo” tax that you chose not to pay. So why take advantage of it while looking down your nose at the people who do/did choose to play. Again, blatant hypocracy.

To “Big Al”: While Ms. S rambled on and didn’t choose her words as effectively as she should have, your comment about Affirmative Action being solely for African Americans was/is ignorant. Here’s a newsflash, genius, the group that has benefited the most from Affirmative Action is … white women, through a little piece of legislation called Title IX. Might do you some good to turn off Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity and the like, and read a little. Just a thought.

And finally, to “doit”: Again, I won’t/can’t defend Ms. S (and she most likely doesn’t want/need my help), but spare me the immigrant story. Your people came here BY CHOICE!! Yes, I’m sure they encountered some racism, but they could have picked up their things and returned to their home country. Ms. S and my ancestors didn’t have that choice. And they worked for free. And they weren’t allowed the opportunity for an education. And their families were often times torn apart (mothers, fathers, children sold to other plantation owners). And, by the way, the federal government initially acknowledged this inequity and promised freed slaves “40 acres of land and a mule,” and began to implement Reconstruction. But both initiatives faded away or were discontinued before they could become effective. So please think twice before you sound off on the issue of African Americans wanting/needing/demanding handouts. We, quite frankly, have a proud history in this country — one which we helped build for FREE — of working for everything we’ve gotten.

Wow! So much IGNORANCE in the world, but so little time (and space) to refute it!

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FAFSA is a joke. Like others have mentioned, on our $50,000 year income, we are supposed to be able to “afford” $10,000 in college expenses each year. We did pay $5,500 her first semester – but that was for room, board and other “fees” that the college threw in. Room & board – and a lot of other fees – are not covered by Hope. Thankfully, she studied hard and had a good GPA so her tuition, some books and some fees were covered. How about the colleges quit gouging us for extra “fees?” She is attending a local college now and living at home, so we don’t have all the associated expenses that go with that. But, even at the local college, “fees” make up approx. $700 additional per semester. There is an “intramural” fee of $40, a “recreational programs” fee of $30, a “student center” fee of $100, etc. And – to help keep the “food services” option available – they force every student to purchase $200 in “dining dollars.”

On a different, but related subject, how about we quit subsidizing the text book printing business. I know these companies need to make money, but they have a “revision” every few years, so that “used” books can’t be used. The teacher requires students have the latest version, even if there aren’t any significant changes to them. I can understand that there may be some subject areas where the information may have changed, but not all of them. My daughter had a class that used an on-line text and it was great! She paid a usage fee, the book was always available and she didn’t have to sell it back at an 80% loss at the end of the semester!

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The problem with the income-dependent idea is there are all kinds of ways to cheat and make yourself look poorer than you are. We see this all the time.

If you make the grades, you should get HOPE, no matter how well or ill-prepared your parents are for you to go to college. Right now, however, there is significant grade inflation, as shown by the frequent lack of coordination between SAT and grades. In Georgia, grades cannot be depended upon. To those who claim they “don’t test well”–well, college is ALL about tests. Whether you do the homework or not, you don’t get the boost like you did in high school. So if you “don’t test well”, you’d better drop down to a two year school and build your test-taking skills. It is much harder to cheat on the SAT than it is to “cheat” on how much money you apparently make/have.

I don’t believe HOPE pays for enrollment in remedial courses, and hasn’t for years.

We sure don’t want to add to the number of employees needed to administer the program! So the “fix” needs to be elegant, simple, and with data that are already gathered. GPA and SAT/ACT are easily computed and readily available. Too many of the ideas upstairs would significantly impact the administration overhead=less money for students.

Oh, and cut out the high salaries and high bonuses for lottery personnel. And the legislature should FORCE the Lottery Corp to put the full amount of funds they are supposedly required to put into the program. The shortfall, in percentage and real dollars, is significant.

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Conservative Hypocracy, (whose name is misspelled, BTW) I see no problem taking that money because they are VOLUNTARILY giving it of their own accord to a clearly labeled fund. No one makes them do it. No one held a gun to their head and said “You HAVE to buy $20 worth of Mega Millions tickets! Muhahahahahahaha” They did it themselves. They made that decision to contribute towards the college fund of the average Georgian child who can manage not to be brain dead enough in high school to make a 3.0.

I have no problem reaping the benefits of the stupidity of others. If you are going to be ignorant, then what you lose is your own damned fault.

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How about requiring students graduate from a georgia high school. I have met several people who come across state line and live here the required time just so their kids will qualify for hope.

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(1) Restrict pre-K to the low-income students who really need it, instead of having subsidized day care for all.

(2) Use SAT, ACT, or other objective scores to determine HOPE eligibility, rather than using subjective (and frequently inflated) high school grades.

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JLo, I agree with your 11:49 a.m. post that education should be equitable across the state. I further note that while the Georgia Constitution says that the state should use taxation to provide an adequate and free education to all its citizens, the state instead appears to be trying to transfer this responsibility to the federal government and the counties.

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I live in Maureen’s neighborhood and have high school kids. She is right. There are a lot of very high achieving kids in our area. I also know from talking to their parents and to the kids themselves that there is no way in Hades that any of them would stay in this ridiculous excuse for a state if not for the HOPE scholarship.

I would far prefer that my kids get the heck out of Georgia b/c their futures are limited here. However, the fact that they can graduate with little or no debt from a University that is now (thanks to HOPE) highly regarded outweighs the benefits of leaving Georgia at 18 rather than 22.

So fine, put an income cap on it… and watch UGA become the pathetic excuse for a university that it was in the 70s and 80s when anyone with a pulse and respiration rate could get in. You put a cap on HOPE and you will lose most of the high achieving kids… or I guess according to Maureene they are just “lucky.”

Sounds like a great idea Maureen.

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Maureen,

Sorry it took so long, I’ve been running around all afternoon. Allow me to retort to your (much) earlier post.

I agree with your assertion that your children have won the genetic lottery, so to speak. It sounds as though they are high achievers who see the value in pursuing a rigorous and thorough education. My question to you is simple: Why do you seem so eager to commit them to a life of serfdom and sacrifice?

Whenever the productive men are penalized simply for being productive, they are being treated as slaves by those without ability or means–be it socioeconomically or intellectually. These moochers see fit to strip the producers of their earned assets–be they tangible or intangible–citing egalitarian rhetoric as their justification for “leveling the playing field.” Many people buy into such rhetoric, even some of the producers who are being robbed of money, resources, and values. If something is to be earned based on merit, there should be no other variables considered.

You asked two important questions:

1. “How do you separate advantage versus merit?”

2. How is merit measured? By what you have achieved, or by what you have overcome?

By addressing the first, I hope to also address the second. The answer is quite simple: You don’t. Reality is reality. Just as your children were fortunate enough to be born (relatively) affluent, intelligent, and capable, other children are born poor, unintelligent, and unable. Does their disadvantage equate to a mortgage to be paid by your children? I should hope not, as your children have done nothing to incur a debt other than to exist. It is not their fault that poverty exists. It is not their fault that they are not themselves impoverished. Herein lies the root of the problem.

As I have said before, a man has a right to his life in the sense that no one can take his life or stake a claim on his life. However, that same man does not have a right to live at others’ expense. His life is his own responsibility, or, in the case of a child, the responsibility of his or her parent. The circumstances in which he begins his life are irrelevant; it is still HIS life and HIS responsibility. Though it seems easy to make exceptions for people in horrible situations, an important question must first be considered: If it is not this person’s responsibility to care for himself, whose is it? Does this person’s life become someone else’s debt?

Collectivists would answer a resounding “YES!” Such a person is covered by “society’s” debt. But when men begin thinking collectively, the rights of the individual become forfeit. The redistribution of wealth begins, all in the name of “society.” What is good for them must be good for “society.” A “society” is only as good as its lowest members. Right?

Or is it? Has any society in history every been shaped by its lowest members? Have the ignorant or poor, living off the bread of the state, ever steered the course of a nation in the right direction? No. The closest a nation of people ever came to being steered in the right direction was when the United States of America was born. The Founding Fathers, in their great wisdom born of the Enlightenment, declared that all Americans had the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (i.e., ownership of private property). They advocated that the government should remain small and hold few powers beyond preserving those individual rights–ironically the very rights on which our government now tap dances every year. The Founding Fathers knew that the only moral society was one in which each man controlled his own destiny–free to succeed . . . or to fail.

So, to return to your original questions, the only moral way to measure merit is based on what one has achieved. What one has overcome or endured has nothing to do with academic merit. To attempt to “level the playing field” is to evade reality. No playing field is ever level, and that fact of life does not equate to an entitlement to be paid by those who enjoy the advantage.

“In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromiser is the transmitting rubber tube.”

– John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

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a pleasant, I never said that restrictions on HOPE would hurt the high achievers. The very first comment I made in this article called for an increase in the GPA and inclusion of more stringent requirements for getting HOPE, which would solve this whole stupid problem to begin with. But ohhh, no. Let’s make it about race and about class and what political party we are (which, to reiterate, I am NOT a Republican) instead of just realizing that some kids can do it, and some kids can’t. Sorry to be so blunt, because I’d like to see every college student succeed so we can have a decent work-force, but it’s not going to happen. There is no shame in going to a vocational school or a tech school. There are plumbers who make more than I do. More power to them – they’re obviously working hard and are good at what they do, and I respect that more than someone sitting on their butt raking in $100K a year in a cushy job.

And yeah, actually, I would rather the poor use their money for something useful instead of BUYING A LOTTERY TICKET. If the people who look to the lotto for their future actually took it in their own hands maybe there wouldn’t be an issue to begin with.

I don’t want to tax people to pay for my education. That would be forcing them to do something that is my responsibility. That tax, unlike the road tax, taxes to pay for public works, etc. would not benefit *every citizen*, and therefore would be unfair. The lottery is, and I repeat this for the 100th time, VOLUNTARY. People know where that money goes when they buy that ticket, so they honestly can’t complain about it later. And hey, if there weren’t HOPE? I still would have worked my way through college, saved money, and also had my family who planned for me to go to school to help. If you don’t have that, then you get loans, grants – whatever you need. There are some things that are ok to go into debt for. Your education is one of them. I have no clue where people get off saying that a tax is the cure for everything. I have no children, so I choose to minimize the property tax that I pay by living in an apartment. That money is better used in my own pocket, not in the pocket of a politician, Republican or Democrat, who will just use it for the flavor of the month idea to buy votes from people who think it’s the government’s job to blow their nose while leading them to the land of milk and honey.

If there weren’t HOPE and if I didn’t want to use my college money for other things like personal savings, I never would have gone to college in this state to begin with. I made a decision and I’m ok with it. It sounds like some people around here resent what others have accomplished. There is no reason whatsoever that someone from a lower income can’t get HOPE, and no reason why a minority can’t get it. I teach some kids who would blow the white middle class Muffy kids out of the water. This whole thing is about if a kid, regardless of race, sex, creed, religion, orientation,whatever – if they can do the work, and if they can maintain, then they get HOPE. Sounds like some of you guys are either people who didn’t manage to do this and resent people who did. You have yet to present one logical, thought out argument to what myself and others on here have said, probably because what you keep trying to blame it on isn’t the real issue.

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It’s not the lowest income kids that need HOPE – it’s the low middle and working class. The lowest income will get aid, largely in the form of federal GRANTS. The working class and low middle (pink collar, for example) will get aid but it will be largely LOANS that put the student in debt right out of the starting gate.

I have no problem with having a sliding scale, but I would taper it off on the low end as well as the high end. Perhaps the HOPE could be part of a total aid package for the lowest income students, but at a reduced rate. I think the GPA could be raised to 3.5 out of HS and perhaps 3.2 to maintain in college. I don’t have a problem with tying it to an SAT/ACT score, but perhaps that could be waived for students with, say, 5 passing AP scores. I agree that it should not be used to pay for remedial classes, and I think it could be a reimbursement program, at least freshman year. Students could get loans that are immediately repaid at the end of the year with HOPE if the GPA is maintained. I also don’t have a problem with a 15 hour per week work requirement – after all, one part of federal aid packages is work study.

food for thought!

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Too many kids with limited academic skills are getting Hope. Use a two tiered system in conjunction with grades, class ranking and SAT/ACT scores. A 3.0 to 3.25, an SAT/ACT score of 1000 and high school class ranking of less than 90% qualifies you for community college. After completing the two years successfully you can then qualify for a four year institution. A 3.25 and above, an SAT score of over 1000 combined with a class ranking of over 90% qualifies your for a four year institution.

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Laura

How would you know what I’ve achieved, or where I went to school, or what I do now? I actually didn’t go to school in Georgia, as it happens. Not that it matters, though, because the idea that anyone who wonders about class privilege must be a resentful loser is ridiculous.

Isn’t it possible, even slightly, that some people are simply interested in trying to give people, as far as possible, equality of opportunity if not equality of results?

I agree with you that there’s no shame at all in going to vocational and tech schools, and I wish there was more emphasis on this kind of thing in America. I don’t think college is everyone (even though I went and did reasonably well, in some ways I don’t even think it was for me), but who goes to college and who goes to vocational school should be determined by the individual student’s abilities and interests, not by class. And it’s quite easy for the college/tech school divide to harden into a rigid caste system if people from poor backgrounds aren’t given a chance to go well in the first place. You know, good schools, good teachers, the potential for actual learning and thinking, not just mindless test-taking. And, for some people, scholarships like HOPE.

The point of the article here is that HOPE is running low on money. The question is how to fund it. If we want to continue offering the HOPE scholarship it has to be funded through either a) taxes, or b) restrictions on well-off people (the argument about exact numbers is a separate one) taking the scholarship when they don’t really need it.

As for taxes funding education, I vehemently disagree that paying, to some extent, for public education doesn’t “benefit everyone” in the way that public works do. That’s the problem with glibertarians like yourself: they see the world in such narrow me-me-me terms that they don’t understand that a caste society where only the rich can go to school and do well isn’t a good or dynamic society.

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HOPE scholarships:

Make HOPE a loan/scholarship hybrid. Students take out a loan, that is automatically repaid each semester with a 3.0 college GPA, open to all Georgia students. If the GPA is not kept at a 3.0 or above, the student will have to pay it back, beginning when the student graduates/is out of college for one semester. If the student can raise the GPA back up, they begin to qualify again for repayment.

PRE-K

Keep the Pre-K program and pay teacher salaries, but put Pre-K classes in local schools under local control, just like K-12. The state has 26 consultants, that each probably make between $30,000 and $50,000 each plus driving expenses, where positions could be cut. The counties would not have to pay the $1,200 PER CLASSROOM equipment/materials budget, but would be able to buy NEEDED items (not a new math center per state consultant when the old ones work just fine) and consumable materials through the school budget.

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Just a thought or two:

1) Given that grade inflation is rampant within the schools, a 3. might as well be a 2. and so on and so forth.

2) A true measure of academic performance might be indicated more accurately in the first one or two collegiate “report cards”.

Therefore, HOPE monies could be applied only after one or two semesters of above average academic performance.

3) If there is true financial need, low-cost loans, from the HOPE reservoir, would cover the first one or two non-funded semesters.

From what I’m reading on this issue, it seems that everyone, regardless of family income, wants a free ride at the HOPE trough. I realize that these are tough times, but lets face it, people…this is not the first time in the history of the world that tough times have decended upon homo sapiens. In past eras of economically-challenging times, kids, even poor kids, have gone to college with financing from such distastful sources as work/study (jobs), loans, and even, Heaven forbid, ROTC.

One more point of consideration: there are/used to be financing sources whereby, upon graduation with a degree in a field of shortage/high demand, loan are/would be reduced/forgiven in exchange for a particular period of service within that field and/or in an under-served geographic location.

As for “Conservative Hypocrasy” and a few more indignants, let’s try and steer clear of the “Hero of the working class” arguements. When someone drops a dollar or two on the lottery, the motivation is definetely not to fund some future budding scholar…the motivation lies in one of modern Mans’ most-basic motives…GREED. It matters not one iota what percentage of disposable income that one or two dollars represents; it’s winner take all. Your arguement could just as well be applied to the cost of fuel, a hot dog, housing or whatever. OK?

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LOTS of good points but I want to thank NATE @3;24.

A 4.0 at one college is NOT the same as a 4.0 at another. Keeping the HOPE is also not the same at different schools.

I KNOW it would be a struggle for me to attend college today and work the 28 hours per week I worked at Wal Mart. I had a 3.5 ( 25 years ago) and that was on a scale of 94-100 is an A…not 90-100.

Our son worked 24 hours per week ( for the past 4 years) and while I am sure he could have had somewhat better grades, his work experiencehas proved invaluable for professional school.

Someone please tell me…is a 4.0 GPA more important for hiring or would you rather have a student who has a work ethic and has worked at a part time job AND gone to school. I hear the latter from most folks who are hiring but maybe I am wrong here.

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I think we should redistribute all wealth. Families who earn higher wages should be villified and punished.

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Kim, could you please explain why you feel that families with higher household incomes should be villified and punished…I am quite certain that all readers are anxious to see how hard work, a good employer who rewards achievement, and, let’s face it, good fortune…are all punishable. Assuming you are over the mental age of six, and not a card-carrying Communist, I would love to read your reasoning…seriously

(giggle giggle!)

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The HOPE scholarship is funded by the Lottery proceeds…. It is not tax-payer funded it is not a Right, it is a gift from those people who play the lottery. It is a FACT that the greatest percentage of lottery revenue comes from low income and poverty level areas which means that the poor in this state disproportionately contribute to the HOPE scholarship fund, which funds the educations of Hundreds of thousands of Georgia College students. Forgive me, but isn’t that “socialism”. Further V for Vendetta discussed the “moochers” I gathered he meant those who “dont deserve” according to him, even though he himself admits to having “Used HOPE Funds to get throuth School. They are “Moochers” according to him nevertheless. Since the discussion is on making it needs based vs. grade based, the moochers would be those who are needs based in his opinion. Question: If “needs based” means those children who come from middle to low income or poverty level areas, and those are the people who disproportionately fund the Scholarship through their lottery purchases, then wouldn’t the “Moochers” be the well off kids who use the funds but their parents contribute little to NOTHING to the fund itself? What gives them the right to pilfer and profit from the revenue generated by others? I smell socialism in action! LOL! Give it a rest! Hyprcrites! It only works in the reverse I see. If they need it and you give it, they are moochers, if you need it or even if you don’t and you get it, then you are entitled…… Reconcile this for us will someone?

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[...] Put an income cap on who qualifies for HOPE Scholarships | Get … [...]

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