Put an income cap on who qualifies for HOPE Scholarships

Thanks Mo,

your myth buster link while correcting my one assertion validates others on scholarship availability.

and as mr. Carmichael states “Determination might not be the most glamorous talent in the world, but it works! ”

my opinon how it should work.
state should grant HOPE loans that would be forgiven with a given GPA
don’t pull the grade–pay back with interest.

A very simple plan that would WORK and damn well if i may say so.

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I like Reality 2’s idea of requiring some services before students receive HOPE. I think it does two thing. First, students will be more mature. I think the main reason many do not succeed in college is their maturity. Having some service experiences will definitely help. Second, such a requirement will make students (and their families) consider the option more carefully. Some will decide to go ahead and send kids to college right away – with loans, etc. Others will opt to wait two years. Who knows, those students might find something they really want to study in those two years.

The services can include working as teachers’ aids in schools, too. That might be an added benefit.

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Good grief. Where should I start dispelling all of this ignorance:

Laura — Glad you paid for your masters. But here are your words: “Perhaps the individuals playing the lottery and wishing for a miracle should focus more on doing stuff to better themselves and less time throwing their money away on a pipe dream that will probably never come true.”

Funny how it’s OK for you to preach to the individuals playing the lottery, while at the same time taking THEIR money for YOUR benefit! There was no need for me to read your post for context because you effectively made my point with your own words. Whether the lottery is “like” a tax or not, it’s still a “pseudo” tax that you chose not to pay. So why take advantage of it while looking down your nose at the people who do/did choose to play. Again, blatant hypocracy.

To “Big Al”: While Ms. S rambled on and didn’t choose her words as effectively as she should have, your comment about Affirmative Action being solely for African Americans was/is ignorant. Here’s a newsflash, genius, the group that has benefited the most from Affirmative Action is … white women, through a little piece of legislation called Title IX. Might do you some good to turn off Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity and the like, and read a little. Just a thought.

And finally, to “doit”: Again, I won’t/can’t defend Ms. S (and she most likely doesn’t want/need my help), but spare me the immigrant story. Your people came here BY CHOICE!! Yes, I’m sure they encountered some racism, but they could have picked up their things and returned to their home country. Ms. S and my ancestors didn’t have that choice. And they worked for free. And they weren’t allowed the opportunity for an education. And their families were often times torn apart (mothers, fathers, children sold to other plantation owners). And, by the way, the federal government initially acknowledged this inequity and promised freed slaves “40 acres of land and a mule,” and began to implement Reconstruction. But both initiatives faded away or were discontinued before they could become effective. So please think twice before you sound off on the issue of African Americans wanting/needing/demanding handouts. We, quite frankly, have a proud history in this country — one which we helped build for FREE — of working for everything we’ve gotten.

Wow! So much IGNORANCE in the world, but so little time (and space) to refute it!

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FAFSA is a joke. Like others have mentioned, on our $50,000 year income, we are supposed to be able to “afford” $10,000 in college expenses each year. We did pay $5,500 her first semester – but that was for room, board and other “fees” that the college threw in. Room & board – and a lot of other fees – are not covered by Hope. Thankfully, she studied hard and had a good GPA so her tuition, some books and some fees were covered. How about the colleges quit gouging us for extra “fees?” She is attending a local college now and living at home, so we don’t have all the associated expenses that go with that. But, even at the local college, “fees” make up approx. $700 additional per semester. There is an “intramural” fee of $40, a “recreational programs” fee of $30, a “student center” fee of $100, etc. And – to help keep the “food services” option available – they force every student to purchase $200 in “dining dollars.”

On a different, but related subject, how about we quit subsidizing the text book printing business. I know these companies need to make money, but they have a “revision” every few years, so that “used” books can’t be used. The teacher requires students have the latest version, even if there aren’t any significant changes to them. I can understand that there may be some subject areas where the information may have changed, but not all of them. My daughter had a class that used an on-line text and it was great! She paid a usage fee, the book was always available and she didn’t have to sell it back at an 80% loss at the end of the semester!

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The problem with the income-dependent idea is there are all kinds of ways to cheat and make yourself look poorer than you are. We see this all the time.

If you make the grades, you should get HOPE, no matter how well or ill-prepared your parents are for you to go to college. Right now, however, there is significant grade inflation, as shown by the frequent lack of coordination between SAT and grades. In Georgia, grades cannot be depended upon. To those who claim they “don’t test well”–well, college is ALL about tests. Whether you do the homework or not, you don’t get the boost like you did in high school. So if you “don’t test well”, you’d better drop down to a two year school and build your test-taking skills. It is much harder to cheat on the SAT than it is to “cheat” on how much money you apparently make/have.

I don’t believe HOPE pays for enrollment in remedial courses, and hasn’t for years.

We sure don’t want to add to the number of employees needed to administer the program! So the “fix” needs to be elegant, simple, and with data that are already gathered. GPA and SAT/ACT are easily computed and readily available. Too many of the ideas upstairs would significantly impact the administration overhead=less money for students.

Oh, and cut out the high salaries and high bonuses for lottery personnel. And the legislature should FORCE the Lottery Corp to put the full amount of funds they are supposedly required to put into the program. The shortfall, in percentage and real dollars, is significant.

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Conservative Hypocracy, (whose name is misspelled, BTW) I see no problem taking that money because they are VOLUNTARILY giving it of their own accord to a clearly labeled fund. No one makes them do it. No one held a gun to their head and said “You HAVE to buy $20 worth of Mega Millions tickets! Muhahahahahahaha” They did it themselves. They made that decision to contribute towards the college fund of the average Georgian child who can manage not to be brain dead enough in high school to make a 3.0.

I have no problem reaping the benefits of the stupidity of others. If you are going to be ignorant, then what you lose is your own damned fault.

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How about requiring students graduate from a georgia high school. I have met several people who come across state line and live here the required time just so their kids will qualify for hope.

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(1) Restrict pre-K to the low-income students who really need it, instead of having subsidized day care for all.

(2) Use SAT, ACT, or other objective scores to determine HOPE eligibility, rather than using subjective (and frequently inflated) high school grades.

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JLo, I agree with your 11:49 a.m. post that education should be equitable across the state. I further note that while the Georgia Constitution says that the state should use taxation to provide an adequate and free education to all its citizens, the state instead appears to be trying to transfer this responsibility to the federal government and the counties.

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I live in Maureen’s neighborhood and have high school kids. She is right. There are a lot of very high achieving kids in our area. I also know from talking to their parents and to the kids themselves that there is no way in Hades that any of them would stay in this ridiculous excuse for a state if not for the HOPE scholarship.

I would far prefer that my kids get the heck out of Georgia b/c their futures are limited here. However, the fact that they can graduate with little or no debt from a University that is now (thanks to HOPE) highly regarded outweighs the benefits of leaving Georgia at 18 rather than 22.

So fine, put an income cap on it… and watch UGA become the pathetic excuse for a university that it was in the 70s and 80s when anyone with a pulse and respiration rate could get in. You put a cap on HOPE and you will lose most of the high achieving kids… or I guess according to Maureene they are just “lucky.”

Sounds like a great idea Maureen.

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Maureen,

Sorry it took so long, I’ve been running around all afternoon. Allow me to retort to your (much) earlier post.

I agree with your assertion that your children have won the genetic lottery, so to speak. It sounds as though they are high achievers who see the value in pursuing a rigorous and thorough education. My question to you is simple: Why do you seem so eager to commit them to a life of serfdom and sacrifice?

Whenever the productive men are penalized simply for being productive, they are being treated as slaves by those without ability or means–be it socioeconomically or intellectually. These moochers see fit to strip the producers of their earned assets–be they tangible or intangible–citing egalitarian rhetoric as their justification for “leveling the playing field.” Many people buy into such rhetoric, even some of the producers who are being robbed of money, resources, and values. If something is to be earned based on merit, there should be no other variables considered.

You asked two important questions:

1. “How do you separate advantage versus merit?”

2. How is merit measured? By what you have achieved, or by what you have overcome?

By addressing the first, I hope to also address the second. The answer is quite simple: You don’t. Reality is reality. Just as your children were fortunate enough to be born (relatively) affluent, intelligent, and capable, other children are born poor, unintelligent, and unable. Does their disadvantage equate to a mortgage to be paid by your children? I should hope not, as your children have done nothing to incur a debt other than to exist. It is not their fault that poverty exists. It is not their fault that they are not themselves impoverished. Herein lies the root of the problem.

As I have said before, a man has a right to his life in the sense that no one can take his life or stake a claim on his life. However, that same man does not have a right to live at others’ expense. His life is his own responsibility, or, in the case of a child, the responsibility of his or her parent. The circumstances in which he begins his life are irrelevant; it is still HIS life and HIS responsibility. Though it seems easy to make exceptions for people in horrible situations, an important question must first be considered: If it is not this person’s responsibility to care for himself, whose is it? Does this person’s life become someone else’s debt?

Collectivists would answer a resounding “YES!” Such a person is covered by “society’s” debt. But when men begin thinking collectively, the rights of the individual become forfeit. The redistribution of wealth begins, all in the name of “society.” What is good for them must be good for “society.” A “society” is only as good as its lowest members. Right?

Or is it? Has any society in history every been shaped by its lowest members? Have the ignorant or poor, living off the bread of the state, ever steered the course of a nation in the right direction? No. The closest a nation of people ever came to being steered in the right direction was when the United States of America was born. The Founding Fathers, in their great wisdom born of the Enlightenment, declared that all Americans had the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (i.e., ownership of private property). They advocated that the government should remain small and hold few powers beyond preserving those individual rights–ironically the very rights on which our government now tap dances every year. The Founding Fathers knew that the only moral society was one in which each man controlled his own destiny–free to succeed . . . or to fail.

So, to return to your original questions, the only moral way to measure merit is based on what one has achieved. What one has overcome or endured has nothing to do with academic merit. To attempt to “level the playing field” is to evade reality. No playing field is ever level, and that fact of life does not equate to an entitlement to be paid by those who enjoy the advantage.

“In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromiser is the transmitting rubber tube.”

– John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

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a pleasant, I never said that restrictions on HOPE would hurt the high achievers. The very first comment I made in this article called for an increase in the GPA and inclusion of more stringent requirements for getting HOPE, which would solve this whole stupid problem to begin with. But ohhh, no. Let’s make it about race and about class and what political party we are (which, to reiterate, I am NOT a Republican) instead of just realizing that some kids can do it, and some kids can’t. Sorry to be so blunt, because I’d like to see every college student succeed so we can have a decent work-force, but it’s not going to happen. There is no shame in going to a vocational school or a tech school. There are plumbers who make more than I do. More power to them – they’re obviously working hard and are good at what they do, and I respect that more than someone sitting on their butt raking in $100K a year in a cushy job.

And yeah, actually, I would rather the poor use their money for something useful instead of BUYING A LOTTERY TICKET. If the people who look to the lotto for their future actually took it in their own hands maybe there wouldn’t be an issue to begin with.

I don’t want to tax people to pay for my education. That would be forcing them to do something that is my responsibility. That tax, unlike the road tax, taxes to pay for public works, etc. would not benefit *every citizen*, and therefore would be unfair. The lottery is, and I repeat this for the 100th time, VOLUNTARY. People know where that money goes when they buy that ticket, so they honestly can’t complain about it later. And hey, if there weren’t HOPE? I still would have worked my way through college, saved money, and also had my family who planned for me to go to school to help. If you don’t have that, then you get loans, grants – whatever you need. There are some things that are ok to go into debt for. Your education is one of them. I have no clue where people get off saying that a tax is the cure for everything. I have no children, so I choose to minimize the property tax that I pay by living in an apartment. That money is better used in my own pocket, not in the pocket of a politician, Republican or Democrat, who will just use it for the flavor of the month idea to buy votes from people who think it’s the government’s job to blow their nose while leading them to the land of milk and honey.

If there weren’t HOPE and if I didn’t want to use my college money for other things like personal savings, I never would have gone to college in this state to begin with. I made a decision and I’m ok with it. It sounds like some people around here resent what others have accomplished. There is no reason whatsoever that someone from a lower income can’t get HOPE, and no reason why a minority can’t get it. I teach some kids who would blow the white middle class Muffy kids out of the water. This whole thing is about if a kid, regardless of race, sex, creed, religion, orientation,whatever – if they can do the work, and if they can maintain, then they get HOPE. Sounds like some of you guys are either people who didn’t manage to do this and resent people who did. You have yet to present one logical, thought out argument to what myself and others on here have said, probably because what you keep trying to blame it on isn’t the real issue.

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It’s not the lowest income kids that need HOPE – it’s the low middle and working class. The lowest income will get aid, largely in the form of federal GRANTS. The working class and low middle (pink collar, for example) will get aid but it will be largely LOANS that put the student in debt right out of the starting gate.

I have no problem with having a sliding scale, but I would taper it off on the low end as well as the high end. Perhaps the HOPE could be part of a total aid package for the lowest income students, but at a reduced rate. I think the GPA could be raised to 3.5 out of HS and perhaps 3.2 to maintain in college. I don’t have a problem with tying it to an SAT/ACT score, but perhaps that could be waived for students with, say, 5 passing AP scores. I agree that it should not be used to pay for remedial classes, and I think it could be a reimbursement program, at least freshman year. Students could get loans that are immediately repaid at the end of the year with HOPE if the GPA is maintained. I also don’t have a problem with a 15 hour per week work requirement – after all, one part of federal aid packages is work study.

food for thought!

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Too many kids with limited academic skills are getting Hope. Use a two tiered system in conjunction with grades, class ranking and SAT/ACT scores. A 3.0 to 3.25, an SAT/ACT score of 1000 and high school class ranking of less than 90% qualifies you for community college. After completing the two years successfully you can then qualify for a four year institution. A 3.25 and above, an SAT score of over 1000 combined with a class ranking of over 90% qualifies your for a four year institution.

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Laura

How would you know what I’ve achieved, or where I went to school, or what I do now? I actually didn’t go to school in Georgia, as it happens. Not that it matters, though, because the idea that anyone who wonders about class privilege must be a resentful loser is ridiculous.

Isn’t it possible, even slightly, that some people are simply interested in trying to give people, as far as possible, equality of opportunity if not equality of results?

I agree with you that there’s no shame at all in going to vocational and tech schools, and I wish there was more emphasis on this kind of thing in America. I don’t think college is everyone (even though I went and did reasonably well, in some ways I don’t even think it was for me), but who goes to college and who goes to vocational school should be determined by the individual student’s abilities and interests, not by class. And it’s quite easy for the college/tech school divide to harden into a rigid caste system if people from poor backgrounds aren’t given a chance to go well in the first place. You know, good schools, good teachers, the potential for actual learning and thinking, not just mindless test-taking. And, for some people, scholarships like HOPE.

The point of the article here is that HOPE is running low on money. The question is how to fund it. If we want to continue offering the HOPE scholarship it has to be funded through either a) taxes, or b) restrictions on well-off people (the argument about exact numbers is a separate one) taking the scholarship when they don’t really need it.

As for taxes funding education, I vehemently disagree that paying, to some extent, for public education doesn’t “benefit everyone” in the way that public works do. That’s the problem with glibertarians like yourself: they see the world in such narrow me-me-me terms that they don’t understand that a caste society where only the rich can go to school and do well isn’t a good or dynamic society.

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HOPE scholarships:

Make HOPE a loan/scholarship hybrid. Students take out a loan, that is automatically repaid each semester with a 3.0 college GPA, open to all Georgia students. If the GPA is not kept at a 3.0 or above, the student will have to pay it back, beginning when the student graduates/is out of college for one semester. If the student can raise the GPA back up, they begin to qualify again for repayment.

PRE-K

Keep the Pre-K program and pay teacher salaries, but put Pre-K classes in local schools under local control, just like K-12. The state has 26 consultants, that each probably make between $30,000 and $50,000 each plus driving expenses, where positions could be cut. The counties would not have to pay the $1,200 PER CLASSROOM equipment/materials budget, but would be able to buy NEEDED items (not a new math center per state consultant when the old ones work just fine) and consumable materials through the school budget.

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Just a thought or two:

1) Given that grade inflation is rampant within the schools, a 3. might as well be a 2. and so on and so forth.

2) A true measure of academic performance might be indicated more accurately in the first one or two collegiate “report cards”.

Therefore, HOPE monies could be applied only after one or two semesters of above average academic performance.

3) If there is true financial need, low-cost loans, from the HOPE reservoir, would cover the first one or two non-funded semesters.

From what I’m reading on this issue, it seems that everyone, regardless of family income, wants a free ride at the HOPE trough. I realize that these are tough times, but lets face it, people…this is not the first time in the history of the world that tough times have decended upon homo sapiens. In past eras of economically-challenging times, kids, even poor kids, have gone to college with financing from such distastful sources as work/study (jobs), loans, and even, Heaven forbid, ROTC.

One more point of consideration: there are/used to be financing sources whereby, upon graduation with a degree in a field of shortage/high demand, loan are/would be reduced/forgiven in exchange for a particular period of service within that field and/or in an under-served geographic location.

As for “Conservative Hypocrasy” and a few more indignants, let’s try and steer clear of the “Hero of the working class” arguements. When someone drops a dollar or two on the lottery, the motivation is definetely not to fund some future budding scholar…the motivation lies in one of modern Mans’ most-basic motives…GREED. It matters not one iota what percentage of disposable income that one or two dollars represents; it’s winner take all. Your arguement could just as well be applied to the cost of fuel, a hot dog, housing or whatever. OK?

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LOTS of good points but I want to thank NATE @3;24.

A 4.0 at one college is NOT the same as a 4.0 at another. Keeping the HOPE is also not the same at different schools.

I KNOW it would be a struggle for me to attend college today and work the 28 hours per week I worked at Wal Mart. I had a 3.5 ( 25 years ago) and that was on a scale of 94-100 is an A…not 90-100.

Our son worked 24 hours per week ( for the past 4 years) and while I am sure he could have had somewhat better grades, his work experiencehas proved invaluable for professional school.

Someone please tell me…is a 4.0 GPA more important for hiring or would you rather have a student who has a work ethic and has worked at a part time job AND gone to school. I hear the latter from most folks who are hiring but maybe I am wrong here.

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I think we should redistribute all wealth. Families who earn higher wages should be villified and punished.

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Kim, could you please explain why you feel that families with higher household incomes should be villified and punished…I am quite certain that all readers are anxious to see how hard work, a good employer who rewards achievement, and, let’s face it, good fortune…are all punishable. Assuming you are over the mental age of six, and not a card-carrying Communist, I would love to read your reasoning…seriously

(giggle giggle!)

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The HOPE scholarship is funded by the Lottery proceeds…. It is not tax-payer funded it is not a Right, it is a gift from those people who play the lottery. It is a FACT that the greatest percentage of lottery revenue comes from low income and poverty level areas which means that the poor in this state disproportionately contribute to the HOPE scholarship fund, which funds the educations of Hundreds of thousands of Georgia College students. Forgive me, but isn’t that “socialism”. Further V for Vendetta discussed the “moochers” I gathered he meant those who “dont deserve” according to him, even though he himself admits to having “Used HOPE Funds to get throuth School. They are “Moochers” according to him nevertheless. Since the discussion is on making it needs based vs. grade based, the moochers would be those who are needs based in his opinion. Question: If “needs based” means those children who come from middle to low income or poverty level areas, and those are the people who disproportionately fund the Scholarship through their lottery purchases, then wouldn’t the “Moochers” be the well off kids who use the funds but their parents contribute little to NOTHING to the fund itself? What gives them the right to pilfer and profit from the revenue generated by others? I smell socialism in action! LOL! Give it a rest! Hyprcrites! It only works in the reverse I see. If they need it and you give it, they are moochers, if you need it or even if you don’t and you get it, then you are entitled…… Reconcile this for us will someone?

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