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	<title>Comments on: Arne Duncan: &#8216;Tinkering around the edges is not sufficient.&#8217;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/</link>
	<description>Your source to discuss and learn about education in Atlanta, Georgia and the nation</description>
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		<title>By: ScienceTeacher671</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/comment-page-2/#comment-8999</link>
		<dc:creator>ScienceTeacher671</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 22:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=1321#comment-8999</guid>
		<description>Cere, all the research I&#039;ve ever read says the same thing - early intervention is the key.  

As I&#039;m sure you know, the original idea behind Pre-K was to provide just that intervention for at-risk children, before it became subsidized daycare for all.

RTI as originally constituted was also supposed to provide early diagnosis, intervention, and remediation of learning problems, but the current implementation in Georgia is, in most cases, directly contrary to the research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cere, all the research I&#8217;ve ever read says the same thing &#8211; early intervention is the key.  </p>
<p>As I&#8217;m sure you know, the original idea behind Pre-K was to provide just that intervention for at-risk children, before it became subsidized daycare for all.</p>
<p>RTI as originally constituted was also supposed to provide early diagnosis, intervention, and remediation of learning problems, but the current implementation in Georgia is, in most cases, directly contrary to the research.</p>
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		<title>By: MBW</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/comment-page-2/#comment-8489</link>
		<dc:creator>MBW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 01:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=1321#comment-8489</guid>
		<description>I support reconstituting bad schools...but we need to make sure that there are mechanisms in place to replace the outgoing staff with BETTER teachers/administrators.   Replacing bad teachers with different bad teachers solves nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I support reconstituting bad schools&#8230;but we need to make sure that there are mechanisms in place to replace the outgoing staff with BETTER teachers/administrators.   Replacing bad teachers with different bad teachers solves nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: MBW</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/comment-page-2/#comment-8488</link>
		<dc:creator>MBW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 01:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=1321#comment-8488</guid>
		<description>A school&#039;s performance should be measured by student achievement alone......but student achievement needs to be measured with a variety of techniques that include, but are NOT limited to, testing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A school&#8217;s performance should be measured by student achievement alone&#8230;&#8230;but student achievement needs to be measured with a variety of techniques that include, but are NOT limited to, testing.</p>
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		<title>By: MBW</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/comment-page-2/#comment-8487</link>
		<dc:creator>MBW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 01:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=1321#comment-8487</guid>
		<description>As a teacher that worked in a perpetually struggling APS middle school, I agree with Arne Duncan on this one.  Sometimes you just need to scrap the whole thing and start over. 

The main issue with reconstituting schools, however, is this:  *** If your school has a hard time filling teaching vacancies to begin with, then replacing 50% or more of the staff may not be realistic.  You just end up having to settle for the same teachers, which solves nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a teacher that worked in a perpetually struggling APS middle school, I agree with Arne Duncan on this one.  Sometimes you just need to scrap the whole thing and start over. </p>
<p>The main issue with reconstituting schools, however, is this:  *** If your school has a hard time filling teaching vacancies to begin with, then replacing 50% or more of the staff may not be realistic.  You just end up having to settle for the same teachers, which solves nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Cere</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/comment-page-2/#comment-8415</link>
		<dc:creator>Cere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 01:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=1321#comment-8415</guid>
		<description>Someone came to the DeKalb School Watch blog and shared some powerful research -

Below is the blogger&#039;s synopsis, but I hope that you will all read the research at the link below and think about it.  I believe (as many of us at the DeKalb blog believe) that we can make a difference in so many children&#039;s lives if we just put serious effort in early on and then strongly again in adolescence.  To heck with the damned tests...

Square Peg said...
If you want &quot;research based&quot;, read economist James Heckman, a Nobel laureate, an expert on this topic. 

http://jenni.uchicago.edu/human-inequality/

Scroll way down and you&#039;ll get to a heading called Policy Analysis, with links to a couple of papers, one of which is supposed to communicate to a general audience. I confess I haven&#039;t really digested them yet, but take a look for yourself. 

&quot;The best way to improve the schools is to improve the early environments of the children sent to them.&quot; (pp 21-22 of the 2007 paper) &quot;Early skills breed later skills because early learning begets later learning... Returns are highest for investments made at younger ages and remedial investments are often prohibitively costly.&quot; (p. 24) &quot;If early investments are made, the returns to later investments will rise. Investment in the preschool years raises the productivity of schooling and post-school job training.&quot;

But all is not lost after the preschool window closes. Anon 10:27 talks about mentoring and plain old fashioned love and attention. The 2006 paper points out that while current systems of evaluating educational reforms are based predominantly on changes in scores on cognitive tests, these tests capture only one of the many skills required for a successful life. There is substantial evidence that that mentoring, etc., can be effective in helping disadvantaged teenagers to become more successful by developing noncognitive traits such as motivation and persistence. (see page 9) 

My interpretation is that diverting an enormous amount of our schools&#039; resources to the futile goal of meeting AYP is an incredible national waste of money and effort. And testmania crowds out love and attention.

What struck me was that the Perry Preschool project described by Heckman cost about $9,785 a year in 2004 dollars. According to a posting today on another thread on this blog, that&#039;s about what Dekalb spends per student anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone came to the DeKalb School Watch blog and shared some powerful research -</p>
<p>Below is the blogger&#8217;s synopsis, but I hope that you will all read the research at the link below and think about it.  I believe (as many of us at the DeKalb blog believe) that we can make a difference in so many children&#8217;s lives if we just put serious effort in early on and then strongly again in adolescence.  To heck with the damned tests&#8230;</p>
<p>Square Peg said&#8230;<br />
If you want &#8220;research based&#8221;, read economist James Heckman, a Nobel laureate, an expert on this topic. </p>
<p><a href="http://jenni.uchicago.edu/human-inequality/" rel="nofollow">http://jenni.uchicago.edu/human-inequality/</a></p>
<p>Scroll way down and you&#8217;ll get to a heading called Policy Analysis, with links to a couple of papers, one of which is supposed to communicate to a general audience. I confess I haven&#8217;t really digested them yet, but take a look for yourself. </p>
<p>&#8220;The best way to improve the schools is to improve the early environments of the children sent to them.&#8221; (pp 21-22 of the 2007 paper) &#8220;Early skills breed later skills because early learning begets later learning&#8230; Returns are highest for investments made at younger ages and remedial investments are often prohibitively costly.&#8221; (p. 24) &#8220;If early investments are made, the returns to later investments will rise. Investment in the preschool years raises the productivity of schooling and post-school job training.&#8221;</p>
<p>But all is not lost after the preschool window closes. Anon 10:27 talks about mentoring and plain old fashioned love and attention. The 2006 paper points out that while current systems of evaluating educational reforms are based predominantly on changes in scores on cognitive tests, these tests capture only one of the many skills required for a successful life. There is substantial evidence that that mentoring, etc., can be effective in helping disadvantaged teenagers to become more successful by developing noncognitive traits such as motivation and persistence. (see page 9) </p>
<p>My interpretation is that diverting an enormous amount of our schools&#8217; resources to the futile goal of meeting AYP is an incredible national waste of money and effort. And testmania crowds out love and attention.</p>
<p>What struck me was that the Perry Preschool project described by Heckman cost about $9,785 a year in 2004 dollars. According to a posting today on another thread on this blog, that&#8217;s about what Dekalb spends per student anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Cere</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/comment-page-2/#comment-8208</link>
		<dc:creator>Cere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=1321#comment-8208</guid>
		<description>Shudder...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shudder&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: V for Vendetta</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/comment-page-2/#comment-8198</link>
		<dc:creator>V for Vendetta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 03:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=1321#comment-8198</guid>
		<description>Sam,

What is there to respond to?  Mary&#039;s assertion that some students can overcome their disgusting home lives is completely accurate; however, she forgets her own words and goes on to contradict herself:

&quot;So, this concept that children can’t overcome their crappy home lives is a myth. Will most of them overcome it? Probably not. But, what if MANY can?&quot;

She was right the first time.  Most will not overcome it; the influence of their home lives is too great for them to emerge unscathed.  Are there exceptions to the rule?  Of course!  There will always be those who recognize something as a value even when those around them are blind to that fact.  I would never turn my back on a student whom I thought could recognize education as a value and make strides to improve his or her life.  However, after the opportunity is extended, it is up to the student to take the next step.  I will stay after school until nightfall to help a student who expresses a desire to make a profound change in his life.  I have no patience for those who with to imitate the mooching habits of their ignorant friends and families.

I&#039;m sure your post was tongue-in-cheek since you seem to think that merely being around these types of students makes you some sort of saint, but your willingness to sacrifice those who perform to those who choose not to reveals the error in your premises.  It&#039;s not about race, money, environment.  It&#039;s about choice.  At the end of the day, no matter how bad a student&#039;s situation is, he or she is still capable of making a choice.  But only those who understand the concept of consequences are likely to view education as a value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,</p>
<p>What is there to respond to?  Mary&#8217;s assertion that some students can overcome their disgusting home lives is completely accurate; however, she forgets her own words and goes on to contradict herself:</p>
<p>&#8220;So, this concept that children can’t overcome their crappy home lives is a myth. Will most of them overcome it? Probably not. But, what if MANY can?&#8221;</p>
<p>She was right the first time.  Most will not overcome it; the influence of their home lives is too great for them to emerge unscathed.  Are there exceptions to the rule?  Of course!  There will always be those who recognize something as a value even when those around them are blind to that fact.  I would never turn my back on a student whom I thought could recognize education as a value and make strides to improve his or her life.  However, after the opportunity is extended, it is up to the student to take the next step.  I will stay after school until nightfall to help a student who expresses a desire to make a profound change in his life.  I have no patience for those who with to imitate the mooching habits of their ignorant friends and families.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure your post was tongue-in-cheek since you seem to think that merely being around these types of students makes you some sort of saint, but your willingness to sacrifice those who perform to those who choose not to reveals the error in your premises.  It&#8217;s not about race, money, environment.  It&#8217;s about choice.  At the end of the day, no matter how bad a student&#8217;s situation is, he or she is still capable of making a choice.  But only those who understand the concept of consequences are likely to view education as a value.</p>
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		<title>By: ScienceTeacher671</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/comment-page-2/#comment-8197</link>
		<dc:creator>ScienceTeacher671</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 02:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=1321#comment-8197</guid>
		<description>V, or maybe they should make a better effort to do what they are supposed to do, and do it correctly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>V, or maybe they should make a better effort to do what they are supposed to do, and do it correctly.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/comment-page-2/#comment-8196</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 01:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=1321#comment-8196</guid>
		<description>Come on V, you&#039;re not going to pass up taking on Mary @ 1:07 pm, are you?  Let&#039;s have your response.  Let&#039;s have you expose more of your brand of thinking.  Reflection and learning seem to be happening.  Keep it coming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Come on V, you&#8217;re not going to pass up taking on Mary @ 1:07 pm, are you?  Let&#8217;s have your response.  Let&#8217;s have you expose more of your brand of thinking.  Reflection and learning seem to be happening.  Keep it coming.</p>
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		<title>By: V for Vendetta</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2009/08/27/arne-duncan-tinkering-around-the-edges-is-not-sufficient/comment-page-2/#comment-8193</link>
		<dc:creator>V for Vendetta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 00:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/?p=1321#comment-8193</guid>
		<description>ScienceTeacher671,

Perhaps that&#039;s the problem then, isn&#039;t it?  Maybe the government should get out of the education business and let the chips fall where they may.  I have a sneaking suspicion that the students and parents committed to education would end up just fine.  Those who don&#039;t place a value on education would end up accordingly.  It is a shame that children must pay the price for parental neglect and ignorance.

As far as what Jesus has to say about the matter, I could honestly care less . . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ScienceTeacher671,</p>
<p>Perhaps that&#8217;s the problem then, isn&#8217;t it?  Maybe the government should get out of the education business and let the chips fall where they may.  I have a sneaking suspicion that the students and parents committed to education would end up just fine.  Those who don&#8217;t place a value on education would end up accordingly.  It is a shame that children must pay the price for parental neglect and ignorance.</p>
<p>As far as what Jesus has to say about the matter, I could honestly care less . . . .</p>
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