Brace yourself: ACT and SAT scores are coming
The frenzy is about to begin over whether Georgia is gaining or losing ground on the SAT. The fanfare at the release of the scores follows a pattern.
First, there is either outrage over Georgia’s poor showing or cautious pride in whatever slight increase we register. Then come complaints that the scores shouldn’t matter because – take your pick – the SATs don’t tell us anything significant or we are among the states with high numbers of students sitting for the test and thus cannot fairly be compared to South Dakota where apparently only three people take it. (Joking, please don’t send me the numbers for SD.)
The national and state ACT scores will be released Wednesday; the SAT next week. Here are some interesting questions that Bob Schaeffer of the National Center for Fair & Open Testing (FairTest) wishes somebody would answer about these tests:
Did the ACT overtake the SAT as the nation’s most popular college admissions exam? Since the introduction of a “new” SAT in 2005, the number of students taking the ACT has risen rapidly while SAT testing volume has remained relatively stagnant.
What do ACT/SAT score trends indicate about the effectiveness of No Child Left Behind in enhancing college readiness and narrowing achievement gaps? Students in the high school class of 2009 were in fifth grade when the controversial federal mandates became law. If NCLB’s approach were effective, should there not be significant improvements in admissions exam averages as well as a narrowing of historic score differences between demographic groups?
Does a gender gap still exist in admissions tests even though females earn higher grades than males when matched for identical college coursework? Since the sole purpose of these exams is to forecast first year undergraduate performance, a fair and valid assessment would not consistently under predict the academic capacity of young women. The problem, according to independent researchers, is bias in the tests’ time-pressured, multiple-choice format, which both the ACT and SAT have failed to address.
Will ACT/SAT controversies lead more schools to drop their admissions testing requirements? Now, more than 800 accredited, bachelor-degree granting institutions do not require all or many applicants to submit test scores for admissions.
As usual, Bob has raised Interesting questions. I doubt anyone will answer them as I think parents and the public in general are comfortable with these admissions tests. Politicians also care about these tests and use them to their advantage, as we’ll see next week when 2009 SAT scores become either a club or a trophy.
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26 comments Add your comment
Joy in Teaching
August 18th, 2009
5:18 am
I always love it when the SATs come out so that educators in Georgia can be slapped down yet again.
So, here ya go:
In Georgia, there is an inflated number of students who are encouraged to take the SAT because of the HOPE scholarship and because we have a BOE that thinks that ALL students should go to college. It doesn’t seem to matter if the student has any actual ability or not.
If you look at the number of students taking the SAT in Minnesota, you will notice that the scores themselves are much higher because the number of students taking the SAT is much lower. Why? Because in Minnesota, only the truely academic minded take the SAT.
This gets pointed out every single year when the SATs come out, yet the media and the politicians don’t seem to be able to understand those simple facts. They probably shouldn’t have taken the SAT either.
GB
August 18th, 2009
7:04 am
Why does the writer tip-toe around one of the key reasons Georgia “ranks” low in average SAT scores? (I use the quotes because the College Board states explicitly that the averages are not useful measures of the performance of schools or states’ schools systems.)
Ms. Downey makes reference to the fact that states with a high percent of students taking the tests have lower averages. However, she refers obliquely to “historic score differences between demographic groups.” Blacks score lower than whites, nationally, in every state. Georgia has a high proportion of black students. Georgia also, as Ms. Downey states, tests a high percent of its students. These are the reasons for Georgia’s low “rank.”
The racial gap is a major factor. Why ignore it?
As Ms. Downey says, the numbers will be out soon. I am sure we can count on the AJC to continue its tradition of reporting on this issue, reporting marked by superficiality, banality, sensationalism, and careful avoidance of certain facts.
Mishap
August 18th, 2009
7:43 am
GB,
When comparing along economic demographics, poor people do worse than the wealthy on the SAT or ACT. What does that mean? The richer the state the better the scores…why not propose we become richer? Asians do better than Whites…should Purdue bring in scores more Asians to bump GA to the top? I’m not Black and my SAT score worked well enough when I needed it so I really don’t have a horse in this race but for you to bring it up since you’re not going to fix the SAT scores w/ racial commentary w/o solid basis other than projecting your own prejudices. If you’re so concerned w/ Blacks and the SAT performance, why aren’t you out tutoring inner city youth?
Georgia can’t exactly change its demographics overnight so what exactly do you propose here other than attempt to highlight a racial group as a cause for our SAT woes? Don’t let blacks take the SAT? Focus on your own kid’s testing and quit trying to incite racial hatred since I’m sure you realize how productive that is.
Maybe GA needs to focus better on non-college track education. Telling every kid to take the SAT and go to college is certainly a recipe for low scores. I went to a predominantly white and middle class high school in Gwinnett and I can tell you solid percentage of them were destined for the very bottom quintile of scores. The HOPE Scholarship has a severe distortion effect on the # of students attempting to get into college much like it’s distorted our entire grading system. Tell kids college is free if you get a 3.0 and then give every kid a 3.0 leaves nothing but the SAT to differentiate for the few increasingly difficult to get seats at one of GA’s decent schools. Lowering the GPA bar to the point where it’s meaningless probably hasn’t helped our students in the slightest and unlike race or economic factors, there’s something that can be done to improve incentives and career paths that don’t require college. The kid who can’t break 1000 on the SAT may have great aptitude certain at vocations and make a great living by getting some hands on training vs. struggling for 3 years to fail out of Southwestern Georgia Mountain College b/c he got a free ride.
Dr. John Trotter
August 18th, 2009
7:50 am
Because of the Law of Large Numbers, there will NEVER be anything but tiny incremental gains or losses each year. Why all the fanfare — as if there is going to be some great change? It is simply more difficult to engage in massive cheating on the SAT and ACT — unlike the apparent systematic cheating which apparently took place (and perhaps still takes place) under the non-leadership of Beverly Hall in Atlanta and Crawford Lewis in DeKalb. The SAT and the ACT are norm reference tests. Georgia has and will continue to rank at the bottom on this type of test. Period.
The Sarge
August 18th, 2009
7:53 am
My preparation for the SAT was a two-pronged attack:
1) My buds and I held the Friday night-before drinking to a minimum
2) We came home before daybreak
Of course, that was in an era when teachers taught, and students either learned, or sat in class and pretended to learn. Deviations from this standard were dealt with in an unmistakable manner, not at all to be confused with the “feel good” tactics employed with today’s crop of future adults. Somehow, that bygone generation was able to achieve quite a bit, in spite of the fact that we had to use slide rules to perform the “gazintas”, and our actual gray matter to think through the problems we faced. WHAT HAPPENED?
sad brotha
August 18th, 2009
7:59 am
No matter what the score… IT WILL BE A JOKE!
GB
August 18th, 2009
8:14 am
Mishap:
I could have predicted your response. I have seen and heard the same reply numerous times. For reasons I cannot understand, many people think it is racist to point out that blacks score lower than whites on the SAT.
Actually, the link between poverty and SAT scores is less significant than the link between race and SAT scores.
All I am asking for is honest reporting. The racial gap is a fact. In every state. No state has been successful in narrowing the gap.
If Ga had the racial gap and, say, Wisconsin did not, perhaps our schools could learn from Wisconsin and do things to close the gap here. But when no state has been able to do this, maybe we ought to consider the possibility that the problem is not in the schools.
Facts are stubborn things. We ignore them at our peril. I repeat: all I am suggesting is that the AJC report facts instead of concealing them.
Maureen's accountability metric
August 18th, 2009
8:15 am
Bob Schaeffer does indeed ask some very valid questions. Unfortunately, rather than being given the careful consideration they deserve, I believe they’ll get lost in the political posturing the trophy or the club that Maureen referred to.
Of course one could argue that SAT scores can only be used as a trophy or club to the extent that the media allows it happen.
Speaking of media coverage, I truly want to thank Maureen for responding to the question raised with her post last night at 9:56pm. Her willingness to share her views has added, in my opinion, a new dynamic, in that not only can we now discuss what role parents, educators, politicians and citizens play in shaping the education debate, we can now discuss what role the AJC plays in shaping the education debate.
And I have to give Maureen credit for being willing to commit, as her comments raise many interesting questions about AJC coverage. For example:
“I do not share your view of what the most pressing problems are in Georgia education. I see no data to support your statements…”
So Maureen, even though your very own paper has run multiple stories, with incontrovertible evidence, on how multiple school systems have manipulated data in order to minimize the extent of discipline incidents, you claim you see no data? Are we to conclude that you implicitly trust the “data” provided by school systems, but you don’t trust the competency of the reporters at your very own paper?
“…and don’t believe it is because teachers are too scared to come forward.”
Well Maureen, I was inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt on that until…
“I have had countless off-the-record discussions with teachers about all sorts of problems.”
Until you told on yourself in your very next sentence! LOL
Maureen, if you don’t think the specter of retaliation is a clear and present danger for teachers, why are these conversations you reference “off the record.” If systemic intimidation isn’t a real issue, as it is in almost every other aspect of business and government, why aren’t you having countless conversations “on the record”?
Maureen, you gotta admit, you kinda led with your chin on that one.
“And my job as an editorial writer was not to defend teachers, as you seem to believe.”
I never said your job was to defend teachers. Advocating for more support for the teacher in dealing with chronically disruptive students, so teachers can maximize their instruction has every bit as much to do with supporting students as it does teacher. Every bit.
Yet, as Foskett states, you found it unworthy of even a single mention. For close to a decade.
You may dismiss my point of view on the matter, but are you willing to dismiss your very own colleague, Opinion editor Ken Foskett’s view? Foskett himself called the issue “worthy” and Foskett himself was so flummoxed by what he found, or to the point, didn’t find in the editorials, that he could offer no honest reason for the shockingly glaring omission.
“It was to write about education policy though a single lens – what can Georgia do to improve student learning?”
My focus is on improving student learning as well. And you can’t address academics if you don’t address behavior. The two go hand in hand. One difference is, my lens isn’t distorted by having to have my views fit into a political agenda like the AJC editorial board’s.
Now Maureen, whatever you do, please don’t come on here and embarrass yourself by claiming the AJC editorial board doesn’t have a political agenda. And as such, one has to ask:
Did you really, really think, that ignoring the behavior problems in public education, and the lack of systemic support teachers receive in such, was really going to improve “what can Georgia do to improve student learning?”
Now that I see what you wrote, and the positions you are forced to defend, I can see why you were so hesitant to respond.
Rebuttals anyone? Jump write in-bad pun intended!
Fulton Teacher
August 18th, 2009
8:19 am
GB, where is your data to back up your statement? It has more to do with socio-economics than race. I’ve taught in pre-dominantly black schools in middle to upper middle class neighborhoods and trust me, those kids had great standardized test scores.
I agree with other posts that Georgia simply needs to stop pushing everyone to take the SAT. Everybody is not meant for college. I teach, my cousin drives a truck. Guess who makes more money?
Dr. John Trotter
August 18th, 2009
8:37 am
MAM, though you are persistently repetitive, as usual, you have made your point quite well. Maureen’s “educational” position is untenable. She simply lacks the experience that you and I and others have. You cannot buy experience. You have to experience it. Maureen, I don’t think that you would ever want to experience what teachers (especially urban teachers) have to endure. The sheer indignities would probably be more than your upstate New York background could take.
Teachers are mad. I don’t blame them one bit. Teaching went from a nice professional way of making a living while truly changing children’s lives for the better to a hackneyed profession because of the pure insanity of how teachers are now treated by administrators, parents, and students. Teachers have become the Collective Scapegoat for the lack of parenting skills and care as well as the abject lack of motivation and effort by the students to perform academically.
MAM, I haven’t seen anyone educational policy “thinker” yet who can tackle this one simple mantra which MACE espouses: You cannot have good learning conditions UNTIL you first have good teaching conditions. Hey Maureen, the Earth is round. The problem with our educational “thinkers” today is that they are still operating on the notion that the Earth is flat. (c) MACE, August 18, 2009.
Dr. John Trotter
August 18th, 2009
9:15 am
You guys are very right. Not all students are cut out for college. No shame. They can and often do make more money and have a good career and life in jobs which do not require college education. However, the standardized tests are driving everything now. Presumably, this is why Beverly Hall shut down a highly successful auto body shop at the old Archer High School. This “shop class” could not contribute to the standardized tests (the false gods of public education), though this “shop class” had contributed mightily to changing many students’ lives in the Perry Homes/Hollywood Court area of Atlanta. These kids, under the inspirational leadership of Mr. Whitehead, took this “shop class,” took great pride in their success (winning statewide competition), and got meaningful jobs in places like Beaudry Ford. But, abruptly and without sufficient explanation, the program was eliminated.
The standardized tests are driving this notion that all students should become “scholars” rather than “vocationalists” (did I make up this word?). Most of the students, I believe, who begin college do not complete college. They went down the wrong track. The British model may provide something in the offing. The State of Georgia should forget about the standardized test scores. The State should throw off the shackles of stadardized testing. Yes, have tests, but for the purposes of simply gaining insight, not funds. In the old days, we had the yearly Achievement Tests, but we were not enslaved to these tests. The State should establish strong vocational programs in nearly every high school in Georgia. (c) MACE, August 18, 2009.
mdowney
August 18th, 2009
9:15 am
GB, One fact that we also should report is that, at least in the past, Georgia’s “A’ students scored lower on the SAT than their top-grade counterparts around the country. A report teased out scores once and aligned them, showing that straight A students were likely to score in a certain range on the SAT. The students in Georgia who had the best grades did not score as high on the SAT. Not sure what to make of that and not sure if it is possible to make such a comparison any longer.
Maureen
mdowney
August 18th, 2009
9:31 am
Dr. Trotter, The ideal “teaching” conditions are not universal. I know teachers who have left well-run suburban schools because their calling was to make a life-changing difference to a child whose world was short on advantages and supportive adults. These teachers have gone into the “worse” schools because those are the children they believe need them most. (I will tell you that most of these teachers either had grown kids or no kids, and were in a place where they could make their career the focal point. Not everyone can do that, which we all understand.)
The critical condition to them was a place where they themselves were critical, where they could redirect a child’s path.
I think teaching conditions are important but each teacher brings an individual set of “ideal” conditions. Working in New Jersey, I interviewed a science teacher once who was legendary for inspiring kids in an urban setting to major in science in college and had a slew of newly minted MDs to his credit. He told me, “Give me chalk and I will write on a sidewalk if I have to, I’ll teach in a Crackerjack box or a boxcar. I can’t stop myself.”
By the way, whatever you are doing is keeping you out of the filter. It may be the shorter posts.
Maureen
Maureen's accountability metric
August 18th, 2009
9:46 am
Maureen,
Because one chooses to go into a tough educational setting, and because we’d like to bridge the gap between rich and poor, we should stay silent on the teaching conditions, and specifically, the lack of institutional support teachers are given when they try to impose a structure so desperately needed when it is lacking at home?
With all due respect your action show that you don’t value advocating for the good teaching conditions these teachers could benefit from when they choose to go to these schools.
Don’t take my word for it, take your colleague Ken Foskett’s word: You, nor you paper, with the one exception of Wooten have addressed it.
Not once.
In close a decade.
Simply put, you can’t advocate for better academic situations for children, if you will not speak to the behavioral concerns teachers face. It would be like advocating for Michael Vick, but refusing to have any discussion whatsoever about his dogfighting.
In other words, it’s a morally indefensible position, which is why I suspect it took you so long to respond.
Cheers
In close to a decade
Dr. John Trotter
August 18th, 2009
9:57 am
Maureen, I imagine that this New Jersey teacher had some backing from his administration for his valiant efforts in the classroom. I am very confifent that he had discipline in place, supported by his administration. Otherwise, no matter how valiant his efforts, with no discipline in place, the efforts would be for naught. I am not putting down every teachinkg situation in an urban setting. I am saying that often times, the students in these urban settings are very challenging, and to be successful, like MAM just said, requires structure to be put in place. There urban students (and all students, for this matter) need structure and discipline, not pampering and coddling. The latter will cripple them for life. The military understands this but our educational “thinkers” do not. By the way, I am glad that Brother Filter is letting me in more! LOL.
Dr. John Trotter
August 18th, 2009
9:59 am
confident, not confifent. Desculpe.
GB
August 18th, 2009
11:04 am
Fulton Teacher:
You ask for a source. Try Curtis Linton, “Courageous Conversations About Race,” 2005. On page 30 a chart breaks down scores by race AND income. Whites in families making less than $20,000 average 976. Blacks in families making over $80,000 average 942.
GB
August 18th, 2009
11:17 am
Maureen:
You point out that Ga A students score lower than A students in nationally. I was not aware of that. What does this mean? Maybe that grade inflation is worse here than elsewhere. But this stat still offers no breakdown by race.
Ga whites actually score lower than whites nationally. The difference in 2001 was 50 points, 1033 vs 1083. Significant difference, but not overwhelming. Blacks nationally scored 207 points below whites (857 vs 1060) and in Ga blacks scored 182 points less than whites (851 vs 1033). I remain concerned that the AJC omits this information.
(I haven’t studied the numbers in any detail since 2002, hence my reference to the 2001 numbers. I would be quite surprised if they have changed significantly.)
mike
August 18th, 2009
1:47 pm
Bob @ Fair Test is always good about getting his “800″ figure in the press, but what he doesn’t mention is that the vast majority of those 800 are bible and technical schools. There are also a small number of northeast liberal arts schools. Almost all state schools and larger private schools still have a test requirement for admissions.
There are other reasons to explain the gender difference in SAT scores (which only exists in match scores). These include the fact that high school females may be lest interested in subjects perceived as more “male”, like math and physics, and the fact that fewer males than females go on to 4-year colleges and therefore those males that do may be slightly better prepared on average
oldtimer
August 18th, 2009
4:09 pm
Some states have quit using SAT or ACT scores for community colleges. It also gives some who are “slow starters” a chance to catch up.
As to scores and A students; Unless you are in AP or other advanced classes your grade means little. In many schools teachers are “encouraged” to allow students to redo everything for a better grade. This is a good practice for some activities, it is not appropriate for evaluation methods.
In a county I taught in any grade lower than a 50 was automatically changed to a 50. This should have been left to the teacher to decide. At the beginning of the year you might give someone the “benefit of the doubt”, but, later on you might have had enough and the grade they received is the one they actually earned.
As for comments about behavior, the teacher does set the standard, but she/he does need parent support and administrator support. I have been in schools where the students run the show and in schools where adults run the show. Though turning behavior takes time and the stats look bad for a while it can be done. Everyone just needs to get on the samee page and start out correctly from day one.
verdi73
August 18th, 2009
5:20 pm
Sometimes the SAT is not a true indicator of how well a student will do in college. I also believe that students should take the SAT and ACT. I did, and my score on the SAT was 850(old scoring), but my ACT score was a 31. I went to college and graudated with a GPA of 3.8 and graduate school with a 3.95. If you went by my SAT score you would have thought that I wouldn’t do well in college. These scores are not the be all end all that people want to make them. Sometimes work ethic and motivation to do well should be considered, not just a score.
trying hard to be patient
August 18th, 2009
7:04 pm
Most Georgia colleges are not using ACT scores for admission. 2006 was the first year the writing portion of the SAT was put into place. Colleges are still not using the writing scores for their admissions. The writing portion is very subjective. I agree with a few of the posters. College is not for all students and Georgia needs to stop thinking that it is!
Lee
August 18th, 2009
7:56 pm
GB is right on with his assessment of the demographics and test scores.
…and it doesn’t matter if you are talking about the SAT, ACT, CRCT or an IQ test, the results will follow the same pattern.
[[[ oops, did I mention race and IQ?? ]]]
The only way to realistically compare school systems across the country is to eliminate as many of the variables as you can. It might be interesting to compare the top 10% white male students with those in other geographic areas, for example.
But the politically correct pathogens will never allow an honest dialogue about race, IQ, and academic success.
d
August 18th, 2009
11:30 pm
Trying hard…. all Georgia schools take both ACT and SAT. One thing that needs to be noted is these two tests are designed very differently. ACT is more aligned to high school curricula across the country. SAT, which used to be know as the Scholastic Aptitude Test is designed to measure Aptitude (1. capability; ability; innate or acquired capacity for something; talent: She has a special aptitude for mathematics.
2. readiness or quickness in learning; intelligence: He was placed in honors classes because of his general aptitude. ) Sorry for the copy and paste there, but aptitude is not something that can really be taught. It is something you are born with.
Rob
August 22nd, 2009
9:33 am
Great comment Joy, but for politicians to better understand it lets put it this way. The Eastern Division of the Southeastern Conference decides to hold a 5K race among its schools. The school with the best average time wins a big bonus. Participation is as floows:
Georgia 20,000 students
Tennessee 10,000
Kentucky 5,000
South Carolina 3,000
Vanderbilt 1000
Florida 500
Guess who wins. Florida, because they send the fastest runners and thus have the best average times. If you took the average times of the 500 fastest Georgia runners, the two schools would be competitive.
Why is this concept so hard to understand?
Gregg Williams
August 22nd, 2009
7:11 pm
We absolutely need improvements to our education systems, and test obsession is not the answer. Look at what happened in DeKalb with the administrators doctoring answers. Look at our obsession with college rankings from US News, which are based off of SAT averages and colleges are also gaming the system to improve their ranking. Yes, we need standards. Yes, we need tests. But, we need to do it in a better way. There’s an upcoming seminar in Duluth with the founder of C2 Education, Saturday, August 29. It’s free, and I suggest people to check it out. He has a lot of great things to say. There’s a youtube video of him floating around, and it might be on their website too, http:///www.c2educate.com. In any case, if you have time go to his seminar. Great advice. Great ideas. We need people like him in government.