Are fewer but longer days the solution to Fulton’s woes?
I understand that Georgia’s school systems are under financial duress. But I am wary of the increasing response of systems to trim the number of days students attend school to cut costs.
Yes, I understand that instructional time remains the same because systems lengthen the days. But I tried to think about this in terms of my job: If I made my day slightly longer but worked less days, would I accomplish as much?
I doubt it.
Kristina Torres has a story today about Fulton County’s proposal to add 11 extra minutes a day to its classes, so it can then cut five days from the school year.
Under the proposal, Fulton students would attend class 175 days rather than the standard 180. The Fulton board will consider the proposal next week, but will also hold public hearings before rendering its decision.
“Being taken into consideration [is] how we can deliver instruction in the best way possible but also find financial savings,” said Fulton spokeswoman Susan Hale.
Fulton is not alone in its calendar contortions; Peach County students now attend school four days a week for an expected savings of $407,000 in operations and transportation costs.
Murray County officials adopted a 160-day school year that starts after Labor Day. Under the trade-off, elementary school students gain another hour in class and middle and high school students another 30 minutes — for a savings of $124,000 this school year.
Will adding 11 minutes a day balance out losing a week of classes?
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69 comments Add your comment
I hoipe Cobb does the same!
August 11th, 2009
6:39 pm
I grew up in upstate NY. School started at 9:00. We walked home for lunch at 11;45 and returned at 1:00. Dismissal was 3:15(five hour school day). Clearly a far shorter school day than we have today, and we turned out OK!! My point is that yes, Fulton could add 11 minutes to the school day, and subtract 5 days…and guess what? The kids would still turn out OK!
Schools are not babysitters, and forcing kids into long days and longer years(if some people had there way) will NOT lead to improved student achievement. Period.
What is our priority?
August 11th, 2009
8:48 pm
If nothing much is happening in school, then losing (or adding) days will not have any impact on kids. What matters is really what happens in classroom with teachers and students.
What is our priority – save money? What are we willing to spend money on? What’s too much? Wny no just stop funding schools period – that will save a lot of money.
Gwinnett Parent
August 11th, 2009
9:31 pm
If school districts will take some real cost cutting measures, we wouldn’t be talking about cutting school days from the calendar.
Why is the instructional expenditure per student for the large school districts less than half of the total expenditure per student ?
Being in IT field, I can tell they can cut a lot of waste from their IT expenditures.
Has AJC ever done some investigation on IT expenditures of Gwinnett, Fulton etc. and how they compare with similar size school districts from other states?
The System is a Mess
August 11th, 2009
9:44 pm
I’m more concerned with a board meeting starting at 4:30pm. There’s definitely is an effort with the bad traffic and work schedules to keep southside parents away from the meetings.
The length of the school day isn’t going to effect the bad treatment that the southside students and prents receive from this system. Meeting in small rooms and early meeting times keep the parental involvement from those on the southside where Katie Reeves wants it – low.
ScienceTeacher671
August 11th, 2009
9:49 pm
Cutting instructional days tends to spread the pain around…that way custodians, cafeteria workers, and bus drivers can be furloughed, in addition to classroom teachers. Also, parents have to pay for more days of daycare.
Maybe at some point everyone will be angry enough to force the General Assembly back into session.
mocha
August 11th, 2009
10:10 pm
I think this is a fabulous idea and hope that Cobb Schools considers the same. In fact, I am going to start discussing this with Holly Cash on the Cobb County School Board. I think this would be a fabulous way to save money (opening the schools, running the buses, etc) while not sacrificing instructional time or cutting teacher pay. In addition, I grew up in NY, and can’t understand why school starts sooooo early in GA. GA schools need to be more creative in cost cutting efforts rather than just reducing someone’s pay!
jim d
August 11th, 2009
10:23 pm
Solution to fultons issues????
CHOICE!!!! Why the hell is that so difficult??
sav teach
August 11th, 2009
11:01 pm
If you had a clue, you would realize that the last week of skewl is a joke. Only the parents who DONT love their children, send them to skewl on the last week.
Mark
August 12th, 2009
6:31 am
One problem with this is that by doing this, you are balancing the budget on the backs of working parents who will just have to pay more in child care costs for the additional days that kids are not in school — there are tradeoffs to everything.
Ernest
August 12th, 2009
6:40 am
Mark, based on your response I would offer a solution. What if we increased taxes on everyone so that schools would not have to make some of the decisions they are making? Would you prefer that?
catlady
August 12th, 2009
6:43 am
We have too many “administrators” and “consultants” and 49% ers (people being rewarded for their service after retirement by being hired back at half pay (the max allowed) to push papers or “manage” facilites.
Macy
August 12th, 2009
6:53 am
While we’re at it, can someone please figure out a way to get our summer vacation on par with the rest of the country’s? This is absurd and needs to be addressed!!
I get it!
August 12th, 2009
7:03 am
Let’s please not make an issue of parents having to pay more for daycare…..schools are not daycares, and parents who send their kids to school for that purpose are THE problem. If you don’t want to pay for child care, don’t have children. Let’s focus our schools, for whatever length of time we deem necessary as a community, on quality instruction all of the time. Teachers will gladly cut out the “fluff” days at school if we are supported by the community that things like pictures, field day, etc. are not necessary. Then, even the parents that “love” their kids can send them to school on the last week. Let’s remember, this is about kids, not parents or their needs. You had your schooling, then you decided to have kids; it’s their turn now, and all they need is your support, not your griping about daycare expenses.
Jeff
August 12th, 2009
7:05 am
I’ve been tracking this issue a bit with my general tracking of the General Assembly, and this is, IMHO, a great option. It allows local systems to make the best decision for their students and their needs, without having a state mandated number of days in class.
For example, the new law is a state mandated number of hours, roughly 1500. There are roughly 260 weekdays in a year, meaning that theoretically a school day could be as short as 5hrs, 45 minutes. Or, going to 12 hour days, a school year could be completed in 125 days – meaning that under this type of schedule, a student could actually complete almost three years of school in a single calendar year, if the schedule dictates 12 hr days every day of the year.
Most likely, school systems would go somwhere between this, as is already happening.
The point being, it allows maximum flexibility within a set standard, and is a DRAMATIC improvement over the old mandated-days system. I truly applaud the General Assembly – and the Governor, who ultimately signed it into law – for allowing local decisions in such a manner.
Ernest
August 12th, 2009
7:15 am
Jeff, well said! I also like the flexibility this law allows. We have been dictated by ‘That’s the way we’ve always done it’ too long. We are still going to school fewer days/hours than our Asian counterparts but who is comparing.
A tweak I’d like to see is a ‘trigger’ that would mandate recess for elementary school students if the number of hours goes over a set amount. We would need this without that adjustment but at least this would provide a chance for students to recharge their batteries.
Mel
August 12th, 2009
7:22 am
I hope Cherokee Co. considers the same. There are many reasons I think this is a good idea (in no particular order):
1) Financial – We are sending our kids to school at the height of the heat. Air conditioning costs are crazy right now. Saving just a few days also saves on gas for busses. Not to mention food in the cafeteria and lights in the building.
2) While the shorter summer didn’t bother me as much last year, this year we really could have used an extra week off. And we did LESS this summer than last.
I don’t know that it needs to be limited to 11 minutes. If you add 30 minutes, you see about 2 weeks difference. I know there are considerations that have to be made for exams, etc. but the possibility is there. Or at least, in Cherokee, eliminate the full week vacation we get in Feb. and make it another long weekend.
3) Every teacher I have spoken with, both retired and current but all from elementary school, said they would welcome the extra time. They felt they would actually be able to expand on topics and not rush through them. Do you know that one school system taught 100 years of American history in 10 days? That’s a decade a day in 30 min. or less.
Overall, I will concur with other posts…it gives an option and we need to be moving away from the one-size fits all mentality we currently have in education. This is a small start. Next hopefully will be actually teaching the students at their ability.
ScottR
August 12th, 2009
7:36 am
If it weren’t for the social aspect, I might home school.
ornery
August 12th, 2009
7:57 am
The school year as currently developed is based on a outmoded agrigarian and religious calendar that no longer makes sense educationally, financially or socially. I suggest we go to a business model of 4 quarters, and derive appropiate breaks on those 4 quarters, aligning vacation and breaks around that schedule. So in essence the new school year would start either January 1st or July 1st, attend school as needed with an appropriate 2 weeks off for 2 quarters, and 4 weeks off for 2 quarters. Also enhance the time allotment to more reasonable hours, 8 or 9 am start, with 4pm end times. and tweak for greater efficiency. School systems with superior success get cut a break more than lower performing schools. We must think outside of the box. I also suggest a state mandate that all new schools that receive state funding MUST be built according to L.E.E.D standards, this will reduce energy costs.
Ray
August 12th, 2009
8:00 am
In states like GA, where education is valued only as day care, it’s a great idea.
In states that will produce the future of our country, it’s a loser.
Commit to education – or don’t. Invest in America – or cry about your taxes.
Ray
August 12th, 2009
8:04 am
Mel – Cherokee county’s property values are going in the toilet as a result of their horrible political/educational leadership.
Because their schools stink, and will continue to stink as a result of thinking like yours, the property values will take forever to recover from this recession.
Those, say in East Cobb, where the schools are excellent, will see their property values return to what they were much more quickly.
Cherokee ought just drop the facade of wanting education and cut school all together. Hence the term ‘dumb rednecks.’
Reality 2
August 12th, 2009
8:04 am
Jeff,
What the GA should be paying attention isn’t the number of this mysterious “school” hours. Rather, they should mandate the minimum instructional minutes for each subject matters. They should NOT be able to count field days, DARE assemblies, etc. as a part of “instruction” hours – as worthwhile as they may be.
Reality 2
August 12th, 2009
8:08 am
ScottR,
There are so many different ways home schooling families handle the “social” aspects – so go ahead and home school – unless your real reason for not home schooling is something else.
I’ve taught HS students who were home schooled through middle schools. I think the ratio of home schooled students who aren’t socially adopted is about the same among the “schooled” children.
Fulton Teacher
August 12th, 2009
8:16 am
Why can’t these school systems get it right?! Adding 11 minutes to a school day will hurt kids. It will be 11 minutes of down time.
Patricia Templeton
August 12th, 2009
8:19 am
This is a ridiculous idea. Adding 11 minutes to a day is not going to increase learning; it’s just going to be frittered away. My son’s school already does no work the month after CRCTs. Losing another week is going to mean even less education, which I thought was supposed to be the point of school.
Sorry, no cute name
August 12th, 2009
8:33 am
Gee, everything I’ve read for years indicates beyond a doubt that the longer the summer break the more kids forget and the more time at the start of the new year is spent re-teaching material from the previous year. A waste of resources and a waste of educactional advancement.
Which is why there are districts opting now for year-round school.
If nothing’s being taught the end of the year, that’s the fault of the teacher and the district – did not happen in my daughter’s Accelerated Math class in an Atlanta Public School middle school – new material was taught until near the end of the week.
Cut admin. positions where the multi-layers of fat hide out…
Paulding County Teacher
August 12th, 2009
8:58 am
Absurd. The first and last weeks of school are already a waste of time because materials are not available. If fact, because the focus has turned so much to the CRCT, the 2 months after the test are a wash. There are far too many teachers just punching the clock and collecting a paycheck. The system isn’t designed to give teachers any authority to manage their classroom or enforce responsibility. This is a reflection of laziness. If you think about it, the 180 day schedule is already trimmed down at least two weeks at the beginning and end, as well as at least a day or two before and after every holiday. An extra 11 minutes is a joke of a justification for cutting a week. It is time to privatize the school system and begin holding teachers and administrators accountable. There must be incentives in place to push achievement and productivity- not new schemes to lessen the work load of an already lazy, apathetic work force.
IEatCats
August 12th, 2009
9:01 am
Wow, I didn’t realize buses and food were the low hanging fruit of costs savings. As the general economy is slowly pulling out of this recession, the enlightened school boards are still furthering their belt tightening measures? Rather than accept the fact that education has been and always will be a “cost center” and that trimming excesses at the administrative level is the only viable, or publicly acceptable, alternative during lean times, these geniuses decide to short shrift the end users of this system, namely the students. So by tacking on 11 minutes to each day of the school year, the system can reduce the number of days children attend from 180 to 175. Think of all the incremental learning that can be achieved in those extra 11 minutes…what a farce. Japan has been in financial crisis for the last 20 years, yet their school calendars still call for more than 220 days of in class education. By the way, Japan also boasts a 90% high school graduation rate. In the U.S., it is less than 70% on average, and in Georgia estimates range from 56% to 62%. Go ahead and shorten the calendar board members, our future non-productive members of the global economy will thank you for it.
William Casey
August 12th, 2009
9:19 am
I retired in 2006 after 31 years as a teacher, coach and administrator (Pebblebrook, St. Pius, Fredrica Academy, Crestwood, Chattahoochee and Northview)….. some pretty good schools.
My question is: are furloughs (I suggest two weeks) being applied to the high salaried ($100.000+) administrators down at the central office on Cleveland Avenue?
Mike
August 12th, 2009
9:27 am
Have the school systems considered year-round-school? Take a look at Blount County Tennessee as they have an excellent year-round program and the teachers spend less time re-teaching after a break. Re-teaching takes the majority of the first month to 2 months at most schools after the 78 day summer break.
Jennifer Falk
August 12th, 2009
9:37 am
Is a unilateral exemption of the 5.5 hours for “minimal instruction time” the correct educational solution for the 26,000 students attending alternative education programs and schools in Georgia ? Or is it the just the correct fiscal solution for local boards of education ? Keep an eye on the GDOE board meeting on Wednesday, August 12 to see what they think.
barneyb
August 12th, 2009
9:44 am
Will 5 days less adversely impact the kids’ performance when adding 11 minutes to each school day? Most likely it won’t. However, until parents step up to the plate and be PARENTS and become involved in their kids’ school, staying on top of homework, studying,etc. and not expecting the schools/teachers to do the parents’ job, Georgia schools will not see any tangible increases in test scores. Generally, for the most part, all districts are pretty much the same. Same teacher credentials/qualifications, same curriculum, etc. The difference is PARENT INVOLVEMENT! Nothing will ever change as long as sorry parents are shipping their kids off to school and not taking an active role in raising their children!
mdowney
August 12th, 2009
9:50 am
Jennifer, Do you mean the state BOE working committee meetings today at lunchtime or the 3:30 public hearing?
Maureen
Paulding Teacher
August 12th, 2009
9:56 am
Barneyb- The only parent involvement that is needed at this point is their participation in pushing for the privatization of the school system. To think the current system can be fixed and maintained by any level of government is nothing but a dream. Teachers are stripped of every ounce of power to enforce discipline, responsibility, and accountability in the classroom. As a result, the majority of teachers just show up to collect a paycheck. Sure, there is a character issue there as well, but the bigger issue is the board and administration’s refusal to back teachers’ classroom authority. Oh, and let’s not forget the latest is classroom absurdity- everyone goes home with a passing grade and a smile (or as I like to call it, “Pulse For Pass.”). Open your eyes people! All signs point to privatization. It is the only way any of this will be solved!
Sandra B. C. Hunter
August 12th, 2009
9:57 am
Is Glenn Brock running the Fulton County School System? It seems like Brock & Clay have taken over running the metro school systems. Perhaps they ought to learn the Georgia school law relative to open meetings and employee grievances. This might help, but is it really just all about the money?
Dawgtime
August 12th, 2009
10:07 am
As an educated individual with a vested interest in the public school systems, I can tell you that the present funding strategies are archaic and inequitable. To simply increase the mileage tax rate is totally inequitable and unrealistic. Why should property owners be responsible for shouldering the increased burdens? Instead of increasing property taxes that can reach the level of 20 mills, I suggest that all Georgia citizens contact their elected representatives and encourage them to change the sales tax restrictions. If public schools are destined to serve all the members of society, shouldn’t all members of society be responsible for sharing the tax burden. That equitable approach would provide an equal balance to all. If only the land owners are funding the school funds, then they should be the ones that have the dominant voices and decision making capacities. Since the last statement is not realistic or the “American way”: we should increase sales taxes to help with the funding. In terms of adjusting the time of day, I am in favor of shortening the school day to four days a week and ten hours a day. That adjustment would maintain the same number of contact hours while saving the school systems thousands of dollars via lower transportation cost, utilities, and lower food cost. That equates to a significant amount of money. That would produce a situation with lower funding requirements while maintaining the same number of educational contact hours. The three day weekend would serve to be an incentive to attract prospective teachers into the field of education. In terms of federal stimulus plan, citizens need to be aware that many gaps are not addressed. The average citizen does not realize that federal title educational funds are specifically earmarked and cannot be utilized for such things as lack of salary funding, inadequate staffing, and educational services. I personally know of schools that had to fire teachers due to lack of funding yet were able to purchase things defined by the federal government. Fire a teacher but build a butterfly garden. Yes, it is just that assassin. The stimulus money is not destined to fund state shortfalls and all the citizens need to be aware of that. I know of schools that fired teachers yet created federally mandated positions such as academic coaches even though the positions are not paramount in the days of funding restrictions. Please don’t believe local boards are given a check and allowed to spend it the way they need to. Yes, that is typical politics, but it is damaging the education of Georgia’s children. We all know how successful federal politicians have been at defining educational accountability. Yeah right. No Child Left Behind has been a total disaster.
Debbie
August 12th, 2009
10:12 am
I think school should be like work hours. Start at 8ish with 8 hours work days, have all traditional holidays off, week for Thanksgiving, 2 for Christmas, and a spring break, then a 2 months of summer break…June-July start the new year in August. Keep kids learning and focus! Working around the parents hours will result in kids walking to and from school alone, being home alone, and the parents (some) get to be home with the students instead of sending them to daycare.
Just a thought for the SCHOOL SYSTEMS in GA.
Paulding Teacher
August 12th, 2009
10:17 am
Dawgtime- Apparently you’re educated enough to have a utopian opinion, but not enough to know how to spell- its asinine, not assassin.
Paulding Teacher
August 12th, 2009
10:21 am
Debbie- Why should the school systems bend any further over for you, the parent? The administrators already capitulate to every whining and complaining parent, even at the expense of the teacher. Part of the problem is that the parents have too much control.
Dawgtime
August 12th, 2009
10:26 am
Any person that has ever studied economics knows ctiizens have to increase spending to get out of a recession. How can you increase spending with lower incomes due to higher taxes? Not going to happen. In reference to earlier post, I will tell you that educational contact minutes are defined as 300 minutes per day. If your school stops teaching after CRCT, let me encourage you to approach the principal and the board of education because that is unethical. I’m not aware of any school that does that. Most citizens need to know all the facts such as federal mandates require that all students perform at grade level by the year 2014. Frankly, that is impossible. You have students that have learning restrictions that will not produce the desired results. So when the child does not reach the grade level benchmark what do you do to the child and teacher? Some things are beyond their countrols, but the federal government seems to lack that understanding. You also have some students that simply do not care and suffer from severe apathy. We need to get real with what is and is not happening in modern classrooms. I encourage everyone the research the realities of education because it effects all of us.
Debbie
August 12th, 2009
10:31 am
Paulding Teacher-My son will start school next year! I don’t know about most…but when I was in school parents were the VOICES. That’s all I know. When our parents spoke things got done. I know times are different, but I’ll be one of those parents. If the schools would take a look at the students and their behavior, it’s because they are learning early how to be adults and take care of themselves. Although my suggestion is a benefit to the parents, I think kids may be a “lil” different if his(her)mother was there everyday to pick them up and drop them off, teachers would be able to have a relationship we parents seeing them on a daily base. Let’s review the commanders in cheif and make cuts from the top and not the bottom. I also think that parents should get together and stand up for these kids, and speak at meetings, and be heard in your community.
John
August 12th, 2009
10:39 am
That is a ridiculous idea. There is no way that you can add 11 minutes to a school day and learn anything. Assuming that there are seven periods or subjects in a day, like is the case in the high school where my children attend (and their school day goes from 8:25 to 3:45), that would be adding 1 and a half minutes to each class. That would not be any instructional time. Yet, you would lose an entire week of teaching. Can we abandon these silly proposals and get back to education?
Dawgtime
August 12th, 2009
10:42 am
Paulding Teacher, you should know that basic syntax does not all one to follow a hyphen with a comma because that creates a grammatical contrast. Thank you for the correction. You are right with the spelling. I was just typing and not focusing on grammar. In terms of the utopian response, I am a property owner that is sick of higher taxes that is totally inequitable. I could care less if you like reality or not. Believe me, I wish that that higher taxes are nothing more that ideal beliefs. Higher taxes are my reality. I must admit that I am wondering why a teacher is posting 10:17 on a Tuesday. You should be teaching. In terms of questioning my educational level, I must admit that I’m laughing about that. You know nothing about me. I will tell you that my educational level exceeds the graduate level. Don’t attack the truth. Deal with it. Your lack of high order comprehension is an insult to teachers because I am defending them in my comments. We are discussing a major issue and all you focus on is a grammar error. Get a clue.
Debbie
August 12th, 2009
10:42 am
That’s the problem with EDUCATORS…and the people in the SCHOOL SYSTEM. You are being paid to do a job. Some people (with and w/o) a college degree pull 10,11,12 hour shift. You are not MY SITTER…, you are here for your career and doing something that you love, something that is suppose to make a difference! If you don’t like what parents have to say…try another field! Believe me PARENTS DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. It’s 10:41am, and if your a teacher of working for the school system….YOU SHOULD NOT BE READING THIS UNLESS YOUR AT LUNCH…NOT or off work. Now that’s the BIG problem
Seen it all
August 12th, 2009
10:57 am
That IS part of the problem of education here in the United States- the lack of parental support for educational and of schools. That’s understandable considering we really don’t value education. Our system is not based on merit away. If it were, you would care about bettering yourself. But school really is a babysitting service for most people.
When I was teaching I actually had a fourth grade student (this is in a middle class surburban) tell me that his parents could teach him and he didn’t need school. Where do you think he got that attitude from?
Debbie
August 12th, 2009
11:15 am
Sorry I DO care about my son education. With out his education…um he is NOTHING. And I don’t know what babysitting service you use…, but the school system is not on my list for a sitter. SCHOOLS are where kids are suppose to attend for a better learning. I do to teach my son, but when he is in school I expect for teachers to go that extra mile with him..I don’t expect that from my sitter.
john
August 12th, 2009
11:27 am
teachers unions better start thinking now. are you going to lose 5 more days pay a year to balance the budget. You get paid for 180 plus 10 now. arwe they going to pay you still for the 180 days. I think not. They arent unterested in what the students get, add eleven minutes a day that time wiill be wasted like the half days so many systems have now
Jessica
August 12th, 2009
11:27 am
I know that everyone, including the state, is having to tighten the belt right now because of budget troubles, so I can understand the efforts to save money. I’m sure the teachers can be creative and find a way to teach the kids what they need to do in five less days.
Paulding Teacher, PARENTS are responsible for making sure their children are well-educated. Schools and teachers should work with parents to get the job done, not treat them as a nuisance.
At the same time, I agree that schools should be privatized. That way, the schools will have FIRE power — the ability to fire wimpy administrators, lazy teachers and uncooperative students (I know students get expelled, not fired, but you get my point). I think teachers and administrators will be a lot more effective if they know their jobs depend on good performance. I also think that parents will be a lot more helpful if they know that little Johnny might get kicked out of school if he never does his homework or bullies some other kid. This would be especially effective if mom and dad don’t get their tuition money (voucher, scholarship, etc.) refunded.
Bursaw
August 12th, 2009
11:31 am
School has been getting longer & longer. Yet the scores don’t seem to be improving. Wouldn’t that suggest that its not the amount of time, but the way in which we are teaching? If the kids are loosing what is taught over the already shortened summer, doesn’t that reflect on the methode the information was taught? Seems to me the easy way out is to blame the kids. Most of the people I talk to about this that want longer or year round school are really looking for free day care. They always seem to be the parent who complains about their kids or the lack of time they have because of their kids. If the methode you teach someone is poor then it won’t matter if you put more or less time in teaching it.
Parent
August 12th, 2009
11:58 am
I am a parent and have read the comments posted. My daughter just started school and we have always taken an active role in her learning. I am sad to see that there is even a thought to close schools down even more than they already are. My question is, are our children doing so well in GA schools that we can afford to close schools more than they already are? 11 minutes to a day is nothing, all that is, is explaining an assignment or going over what will be done the next day.
GA has one of the worst schools systems in the country and administrators are wondering how to cut costs with the answer being shorter school years and we wonder why we can’t be competive in the global market.
Reality 2
August 12th, 2009
12:21 pm
Bursaw,
I think the school year has been 180 days for a LONG time – so I have no idea where you are getting the idea that schools is getting “longer and longer.” At the same time, I agree with you absolutely what matters is what happens when students are in schools. If nothing much is happening, then losing (or gaining) several days matters.