School systems: Can big ever be better?
I was looking at the enrollment figures for DeKalb, Gwinnett, Fulton and Cobb and wondered when, if ever, a system gets too big and unwieldy? Can anybody be heard in a system with 100,000 students? Do you have to shout to be heard?
In general, I am a fan of small systems and small schools because I think they are easier to navigate. I am not sure the data says that the education is always better in smallers systems and schools. From what I have read, reducing class size in the early grades helps poor kids learn, but the boost seems to disappear after third grade. Smaller classes don’t matter as much to middle-class students, suggesting that across-the-board class size reductions are not as effective as targeting high-risk schools.
Back when the state had its education panel, there was a call for keeping high school enrollment between 600 to 900 students, middle schools at 600 and elementary schools at 300. That idea never went anywhere. There was less discussion of system size.
One Nevada study on systems size concluded: “Moreover, 24 districts in the U.S. now enroll more than 100,000 students. If economies of scale actually were the result, we would find school-district spending on instruction increasing as a share of the total as district size increased. Empirical research finds, however, that not to be the case. In fact, as school district size increases, the percentage of budget spent on teachers, books, and materials actually tends to decline.”
For those of you in the mega-systems, how do you get heard? Is the school universe limited to the schools your kids attend? Is each school an island unto itself, with a different culture perhaps than schools across the county? Do you see any benefits to big systems?
(I am going to Gainesville today to talk about balancing family and work, something I am still working on. I’ll be back around 2. You all do quite well without me, but if anyone has any specific points to make to me, I will be checking in then. Have a good day, Maureen)
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23 comments Add your comment
Ernest
August 6th, 2009
7:53 am
Ah, the age old question of ’small and many’ versus ‘large and few’. Valid points can be made for both. City of Decatur schools (CODS) is a good example of the former. As I understand, residents pay significantly more in property taxes to support their infrastructure however residents do so willingly because many feel they are getting a ROI with their dollars. Obviously there are some programs and services that cannot be offered partly due to economies of scale but because of their proximity to DeKalb Schools, they have entered partnership agreements to share some resources.
The key benefit I see with larger systems is the ability to provide more services. I don’t know whether CODS offers as many AP classes or has the same type of offerings as DeKalb for special needs students. These are also some of the things that make larger systems somewhat attractive.
At the end of the day, you can get what you are willing to pay for. I look at what my friends in the Northeast pay for property taxes, many having school systems like CODS. I’m not sure if many here would be willing to make that kind of investment.
jim d
August 6th, 2009
8:10 am
After years of dealing with the states largest school system, I can assure you that bigger isn’t better in many areas.
The largest disconnect seems to be in communications. Secondly the rudeness of the administration grows propotionally to the size of the system, largely due to admin. knowing they can safely piss off close to 50% of the population at any one time without any serious consequence. They also realize that voters have relatively short memories so elected officals can get away with enacting policy that is just over the top.
I have also observed that the larger the system the less support and larger the disregard of the working force including 180-220 contract personel.
Then there’s always my pet-peeve; The larger the system the stronger the political ties and DISREGARD FOR THE LAW
As well as less accountability for how tax dollars are being spent.
(One bid contracts with change orders that exceed the origional contract amount. spending money on administrative salaries or generous consulting fees to influential friends. $1000 “retirement” checks to local pastors or… whatever else might strike a school official’s fancy. Construction of a school between two toxic landfills. The disappearance of accusations of malfeasance leveled by an ex CFO of the system. purchase of the taj mahl they call central offices.)
Shall i continue?–naw, no one gives a damn.
HS Teacher, Too
August 6th, 2009
8:19 am
I do, jimd! And with the latest round of “sc#!w-the-teachers,” I am sure many more folks are starting to, as well!
jim d
August 6th, 2009
8:26 am
Really??
Are you willing to do something about it??
I’ve heard this for 5 election cycles from people all over the county but you can’t even get them to the polls to vote these arses out of office.
Gwinnett Parent
August 6th, 2009
8:32 am
I think larger school systems tend to waste more money than smaller ones.
When I saw Gwinnett’s Instruction ssupport center for the first time, I was impressed. Then I saw how kids at local schools are stuffed into trailors like cheap vegitables.
Someone tell me, what is more important ? Providing safe and comfortable environment for our kids or state of the art mega buildings for people who are not involved directly with kids’ education?
jim d
August 6th, 2009
8:35 am
Daniel D. Seckinger, District II, 2009 Chairman
joined the Board in 1995
Dr. Mary Kay Murphy, District III, 2009 Vice-Chairman
took office in 1997
Carole Boyce, District I
The newest member–2005
Dr. Robert McClure, District IV
a Board member since 1995
Louise Radloff, District V
OMG, since 1973
jim d
August 6th, 2009
8:43 am
Teacher too,
You must have a rather short memory, y’all were dumped on for years–then Alvin spits up a 3% raise during an election year and teachers just fell in line.
One thing I have learned over the years is that the majority of teachers do not like change and will not willingly vote for change. They step into the booth and punch every encumbents name.
That is just the way it is!
elizabeth
August 6th, 2009
8:46 am
This is one of my pet subjects. I went to school in a high school of 500 with a graduating class of less than 150 then went to teach in Cobb where I taught more than 150 kids in any given year.
I know folks argue that bigger schools have more resources and can afford to offer more courses, but smaller schools offer a more personal connection. This is especially important in the arena of discipline because in bigger schools, students can simply run away and you don’t know who they are. In smaller schools with tight knit faculties either you know who the offender was or the person beside you does.
In fact, the ONLY good thing that ever came out of NCLB was that my little “po dunk” high school was finally recognized as a school of excellence when those scores were published. I can’t say the same for the megaschool where I taught.
Where the teachers better? Certainly not better paid at my little school. No, smaller schools require more interpersonal communication and a greater mutual respect on the part of students, teachers, administration, and parents is the natural result.
As for politics, I hate to break it to all of you who are frustrated, but that’s everywhere. In a small town you just know more of the details. : )
Cere
August 6th, 2009
9:17 am
I’ve been advocating for DeKalb to break out into 4 or 5 smaller districts – where the area superintendents virtually function as superintendents. Then, the overall school system could be led by a CEO superintendent – who spends his time evaluating programs, planning for the future and meeting with the area superintendents to discuss area needs. The overall system could also provide the magnet and theme programs, as well as alternative and very special needs programs which anyone from the 4 or 5 districts could take part in.
As it is now, Dr. Lewis has his pinkie in every little Peyton Place drama that occurs systemwide. He tends to micro-manage, which turns his attention away from focusing on the big picture and the future. He (or whoever functions as the CEO Superintendent) should be a leader – an innovator — and let the area supers run the day to day events.
The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation spent millions of dollars to find out that yes, it’s true, smaller systems and smaller “learning communities” are best. We could create smaller communities within the larger community easily. DeKalb had been discussing a regional plan – but somehow, as is usually the case, after much work, research and input by parents and community volunteers, the flexible regional plan has fizzled.
jim d
August 6th, 2009
9:18 am
You really want to bring badly needed improvement to education in Georgia? Here’s how you do it.
Petition the State legislature to once again change the state constitution to allow the Gov. To appoint the state school super. Placing total accountability for that selection on the Gov.’s back, which would force a very careful appointment of someone well versed in educational issues instead of someone looking to climb the ladder in state politics.
Along with that change, make local supers an elected position once again in order to force them to listen to parents concerns. Well at least once every four years, during an election cycle anyways, when they would have to answer for their words, actions or inactions.
At the local level this would help curtail cronyism, politics, micro management, and corruption.
IMHO, this would be the quickest and most effective method of bringing education in Ga. up to par. If you have an opportunity to attend a state legislators town hall meeting in the next year–stand up and speak out. If not, Write or, better yet, call them.
Ernest
August 6th, 2009
10:03 am
JimD, I can agree with you that the state super should be an appointed position. I’m not sure I could support local supers being an elected position. Citizens elect Board of Education members who I believe should appoint the super. This should ensure the goals of the Board and super are aligned. If the super were elected, there decision making might conflict with that of the Board and could cause stalemates.
Cere, that is a GREAT suggestion! It would be something if this created ‘competition’ between districts that caused all to improve.
jim d
August 6th, 2009
12:05 pm
Ernest,
The question then is one of if the local super is there to serve a few politico’s called the BOE or if he / she should be accountable to the people. I suggest there would be more accountability if he/she were actually serving the people.
Reality 2
August 6th, 2009
12:59 pm
I think it all depends on the people. I lived in Pennsylvania where there are hundreds of school districts – some have only one of elementary, middle and HS – and Maryland where each county is a district – I believe Baltimore County is one of the largest district in the country. I think there are large but good system and there are small and ineffective systems.
So, the question is how to get good people to run the school. I’m not quite clear why jim d thinks it’s bad to have an elected state superintended but ok to have local ones being elected. Wouldn’t we have the same problem of someone just looking to climb up the political ladder – perhaps more so with the local one. We already have this problem in local board, so I don’t see how that will make difference.
I would like to see some form of examination systems – people who want to be super or board must pass some tests on education laws, basic subject matter knowledge, and basic pedagogical knowledge. Only those who pass the test can run or be appointed as a super of board members. And they have to do this every time – not just passing it once but before each election/appointment. It may also be useful to include actual “teaching” – at whatever the level of students and subject they chose.
Cere
August 6th, 2009
1:25 pm
Thanks, Ernest. I think this plan would allow for more purposeful planning. Each “district” would offer neighborhood schools (which you could choose between as suggested in the regional plans) and the over-arching county system could offer the alternative type schools for students who desire and/or need something different – Examples — A super nice vocational high school (like the one in my hometown ( http://www.pentacareercenter.org/ ) , a very CREATIVE-focused school of the arts, an alternative – more “Open Campus” for students who need more flexibility, need to work, or are working on a diploma at a different pace, a Math/Science/High Tech school (Arabia is supposed to function as such, but it’s inaccessible to most as it’s located 1 mile from the Rockdale county border) and maybe even someday – a military academy. Add in the “special” schools for those with high level needs as well as home tutoring for those with health issues and a small, intense school for at-risk or students from juvenile detention.
As it is now – it’s a patchwork quilt assembled over years of shooting from the hip. (This was my complaint about the military school – it was not being well-planned, just being forced in without a lot of thought.) The superintendent should be the planner – the visionary – the one who reorganizes the system into something effective and accessible for all.
FLAWoodLayer
August 6th, 2009
6:38 pm
I’ve taught in small and large systems and both have their issues. It really depends on the pressure applied by the community to ensure their schools work and the quality of personnel running the schools and the system. In DeKalb we will be blessed Friday with wasting quality planning time so we can be bussed to sites to hear der Fuehrer err…I mean Crawdad Lewis speak. I wonder whether ihe will have theme music when he enters this time like he did when I went to New Teacher Orientation? The cost to bus teachers to these sites has to be immense and at a time when we are facing budget cuts it makes you wonder. But then again it is what it is in Premier DeKalb.
catlady
August 6th, 2009
6:39 pm
I agree with you, Maureen, and so does national data, especially for “at risk” youth. See the work at the National Center for Educational Statistics, such as work with the NELS 88 data.
We either pay from the front or though the rear. For some reason, we accept spending it after the fact, through dropouts, crime, premature family formation, etc.
Yeah, but then again -
August 6th, 2009
7:08 pm
“We either pay from the front or though the rear.”
True that!
bigger is not better
August 7th, 2009
8:40 am
I taught for Giwnnett county and during the past few years I have learned that they are cold and with no soul. Rome was the biggest empire and we all know what happened to it, bigger cars pose a problem on the enviornment, bigger bodies are bad for our health, do you see where I am going? Mr. Wilbanks makes over $343,000 dollars with $4,000 in travel expenses. He doesn’t really do anything because he has area superintendents that make over $100 grand that oversee schools. He didn’t take furlough days. Bigger = greedy. My principal was just evil! I took my child out of Gwinnett Public schools to put her in a much smaller school system. I couldn’t be happier about my choice. A middle school teacher once told a freind that its not that they don’t care its just that they don’t have time to care. My friend moved to Barrow real quick. With IE2 Gwinnett is going to implode she told me that one kindergarten class has 23 students, that is way to many little ones in a small classroom. Gwinnett only cares how they look to the rest of the state not how they treat their teachers, and people would be in shock to find out what really goes on behind the scenes.
Robin
August 7th, 2009
9:28 am
Larger school systems tend to be to “top heavy” and spend way too much on useless administrative positions. It takes more man power to run these mega districts thus more money on management and in turn less money gets spent on directly educating the students.
Gwinnett has gotten too big. They have played a huge role in creating their own “monster”. Embracing “diversity” and drawing large numbers of ethnic groups into the county has given GCPS HUGE federal and state funds. Gwinnett as a whole has seen nothing but DOLLAR signs and that’s why our community is going to suffer the most during this economic downturn.
Biggest is not best!! Attacting the wrong population that really brings few tax dollars into our county has damaged our community. You get what you pay for.
Perturbed
August 8th, 2009
8:20 am
True scenario, in so many places: teachers have their rooms for planning. On an elementary level, it’s understandable. But how many companies intentionally leave 1/6 of their building vacant, and put trailers in the backyard to accomodate this practice? GCPS does. During tight times, why don’t we return the trailers, which cost thousands of dollars EACH, every year, and have teachers share rooms? I was told because this cost is from a different fund than that of the school. Duh? Communicate!
PS – I’m a 15 year veteran, still teaching. Yes, it would be inconvenient, but so would 7 more days of furlough, which are possible this school year. Too big can be a bad thing sometimes.
ScienceTeacher671
August 8th, 2009
8:52 am
Some of the small systems don’t have enough resources, and the larger systems are too big & impersonal. Somewhere there is a happy medium, but the education bureaucracy rarely finds a happy medium in anything. It apparently prefers to constantly swing from one extreme to the other.
InAtlanta
August 8th, 2009
9:30 am
THe decision to build large schools in Gwinnett started with ALton Crewes. I worked at the central office level for Alvin. I was threatened and much worse happened to me, the EEOC fined GCPS for crippling me. ALvin see’s large school budgets as a means to increase his salary. I worked for GCPS over 12 years, I saw ALvin in the technology dept, no more the 2 times. The exec directoress that refused to let me take 6 weeks sick leave and timely sugery, ALvin promoted. She is a racist. She fired fired black employees rather than the woman who lied on her resume, or the wife of her friend hired in at an much higher salary than her experience of education demanded. Alvin has very little knowledge of what goes on in his school system, through his own choice. His staff wouldn’t talk to me or the EEOC. THen they hide behind the excuse that a large school system is difficult to manage.
concerned
August 8th, 2009
5:24 pm
Gateway tests need to be gone! A waste of a lot of money and time. I would like to see the full amount spent on Gateway tests, prep and teacher time for one school year. Unbelievable.
Big systems can work, but only by smaller divisions having some control and community.