Remedial problems in college

Unfortunately some perceive that saying college is not right (at least immediately after HS) for every student means you have low expectations. There are some who recall some students being ‘directed’ to the old ‘vo tech’ programs without really performing an assessment of that students actual abilities. I prefer to say that everyone should have post high school education albeit at a career technology school or college.

While many school districts are adding career technology programs and providing opportunities for students to attain work place certification, it will still be important for continuing education in order to be competitive in the global workforce.

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The original plan was that if the student did not pass the EOCT, he/she did not get credit for the course. This looks like a good reason to implement that plan.

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The watering down does not stop in high school. Universities are also weakening their requirements past the freshman year. The business program I graduated from in 1995 required 3 Accounting classes, one junior level in addition to 3 Economics classes, one senior level. Calculus was also a requirement. The year I graduated the upper level Accounting and Economics requirements were eliminated, as well as Calculus. My husband just finished a similar program at GSU. It was definetly watered down. It is not fair to the previous alums that were forced to take the more rigorous classes. Unfortunately, the watered down degree holds the same weight. We need to stop catering to those that cannot make it at 4yr colleges. Not everyone is university material. We need to encourage some students to go to technical school.

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I am a middle school remedial math teacher in Cartersville. LSH expressed my thoughts perfectly. I cannot for the life of me see how Kathy Cox expects us to meet standards in Middle School when the students are not even coming close to mastering the standards in elementary! And the cycle will continue until something is done about it.

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**I am off work today** I am an elementary teacher and I totally agree with the middle/high school teachers. I am SO OVER being aggravated with the way we pass the students along in elementary schools. It isn’t rocket science that they have already been set up to fail. I’ve been saying (before I left Dekalb) that if we were to honestly start failing students that need to fail..the lower grades would SWELL and everyone would be stuck in K, 1, and maybe 2. These students are babied all year long. They aren’t expected to do their absolute best and have already been trained to think that we will accept whatever BECAUSE..they ‘tried’.

My students aren’t anywhere near where they need to be for the next grade. It isn’t just my class..I have worked with what I was given and have done my absolute BEST! I can only do so much when they don’t know the alphabet, let alone the sounds, or cannot recognize their numbers to 20.

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Ooops..I meant to add..along with not recognizing numbers…they are supposed to be able to master 2 digit addition/subtraction. How can they compare numbers if they don’t know what 35 is?

I have totally forgotten about the middle/high school teachers and their plight because I am so angry with ours. I cannot begin to imagine the frustration of teaching middle/high school and not being able to do what is needed because of YEARS of unmastered skills were left behind.

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Another problem, that so far does not seem to have been mentioned, is that colleges allow unqualified students to enter. Do you think they have recognized a cash cow? Students have to take the remedial courses, pay for them, and they still have to take all the required classes? It’s not just the teachers and schools who are at fault.

Grade inflation is bad, but I recognize many teachers are pressured by bad administration to “pass” as many kids as possilbe. These men and women should think about the consequences of giving kids something for nothing. What are we teaching them?

Gifted/AP/Advanced content courses in high school are not places for remediation. The teacher bemoaning that situation should have been backed by the principal to have the student placed in another course.

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What do we expect? Our culture doesn’t believe in allowing anyone to fail – even if it’s due to their own lack of discipline or effort. You can’t recognize honor students because other will feel bad, you can’t play games that make students feel like losers, everyone should have high self esteem whether it’s earned or not. Because, of course, life isn’t like that!

Our kids are turnig out ill-prepared for life because of the attitude that everyone should be passed along and no one should feel bad because of lack of effort.

For this reason, both our kids went to private school – where the teachers had expectations and, if they weren’t met, consequences would be felt. When they went to college (and one did lose the Hope scholarship) they both felt better prepared for college than their public school classmates. And there were consequences for losing the Hope Scholarship. The spending money we gave him was reduced since we had to pick up extra expenses without the Hope. Life comes with consequences, we would do our children a favor by teaching them that lesson earlier, rather than later.

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And then there’s this.

Matters only worsen.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30556276/

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Why look at just the negative? I noticed my kids’ high school in Gwinnett was one with a low “first year in college remediation” rate. The school (Dacula) also scored well in the “grade inflation” report back in February. Both explain why my kids’ professors in college rave about their skills and knowledge. My daughter and son both tell me college is a breeze compared to what they had to do in high school. Way to go Gwinnett!

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Vince, congratulations on the success your children are having. I believe we look at the ‘negatives’ because we are expecting a greater ROI of our tax dollars. I’m embarrassed that the school my children attend was in the upper third of that list. Though I know my children will do well once in college, I am concerned also about the ‘false hope’ we are giving many of our children regarding their academic abilities.

I am concerned with how businesses look at that information. That kind of information ‘could’ influence them regarding where to set up shop thus providing employment opportunities. Who would want to open a business in an area perceived to have significant grade inflation.

As usual, interesting comments from the teachers that participate. I also have concerns about what is happening in ’some’ of our elementary schools. It is reasonable to question whether they leave elementary school equipped to succeed in later grades. I’ve spoken to many middle school teachers that complain about the amount of remediation they have to do.

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jimdear and others: please know that the comments made by “Old School” are NOT by me. Evidently someone likes my screen name enough to appropriate it.

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I heartily apologize, I am not a regular on this blog and was drawn to visit after reading the article about grade inflation. I didn’t realize the screen name was taken.

We must think alike – on screen names anyway!

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I still think that grades would improve considerably if a student had to repay their HOPE grant if they did not get a 3.0. Part of the problem is that many kids today are not mature enough or emotionally prepared enough for the independent study and living expected by colleges and universities. They don’t know how to study (they never had to in high school), they don’t know how to budget their time (since every moment for their entire life has been blocked out for them, from day care, to school to after school programs to organized sports leagues, etc., etc.), they complain if the professors actually give them the grade they deserve and don’t give a flip what it does to their scholarship, and they think that they aren’t holding up their end as college students unless they are getting blindingly drunk four days a week, or staying up all night playing World of Warcraft and missing classes left and right the next morning.

You can’t remediate immaturity. Sometimes life just has to smack you upside the head a few times before you get it.

My son at college was shocked at a friend’s illiteracy when he was asked to look over a paper. “Mom, the grammar and punctuation was so bad, I didn’t even know where to start.” My son handed the paper back and said, “Sorry, but it’s so bad, I don’t think there’s anything I can do for it, I’d have to rewrite it completely, and I’m not willing to do that.” Friend got angry, but admitted that his parents had rewritten almost every paper he “wrote” in high school.

My question is: WHY do colleges offer remedial classes in the first place? To me, that’s a shocking waste of limited resources, and if I were an admissions director, I would be humiliated that kids had slipped in under my admissions criteria radar. If a student can’t hack college-level work, then they flunk out and have to figure out something else to do with their life. It’s called “consequences.”

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DB….loved the rewrite story. We personally know a 21 year old whose Mother is writing his college papers….HELLO?
My kids are in Gwinnett. When we visited Auburn ( before my son went to UGA) we were told:
we love students from your school in Gwinnnett County Ga, as they are prepared to handle the course rigor in college…. they looked at his SAT score and said he was in…did not even have to apply, except for the formality!
He decided to attend UGA but did take a few summer classes at Perimeter College here in the metro and told me,
“those classes were easier than my high school classes… and nothing like UGA.”
For what it is worth…I work in some Kindergartens where the students cannot speak or comprehend English by THIS TIME OF YEAR and yes they are passed to first grade…..HELLO?
Whose fault it this?

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Another issue — how is the state’s raising of standards (i.e. the implementation of the new, “more rigorous” math curriculum) going to help anybody with anything when apparently the kids were unable to master the old, allegedly less rigorous curriculum? There’s a huge disconnect here.

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To Old School 2: no problem. Just be prepared to get your ears pinned back from time to time.

Here’s what’s going on in my area: several teachers at my school have been “encouraged” to resign for high failure rates. Grades get changed without first going through proper channels. But my biggest concern is credit recovery. Students who have a 65 to 69 can show up for a few days, go through the motions and TA DAH! their grades become 70! It doesn’t matter that they still haven’t done the work or learned the material and will likely bomb the graduation test. They passed with a 70 and get credit for the course.

Makes me miss the old days when kids got Ds which were still passing but everyone (especially colleges) knew it was BELOW AVERAGE. A 70 was a C and only average. Maybe we should bring back the D; allow more kids to graduate which will boost numbers and make lots of folks happy; and bring back the F word: FAILURE. There are ample opportunities for students to do what it takes to pass. We’ll hurt for a few years but once everyone figures out that the rigor isn’t going away and everyone is accountable, students will come into my class knowing what an inch is and how to divide a fraction in half and maybe. . . just maybe able to read on or near grade level!

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So I guess I’ll be the bad guy and bring up the dirty words: The IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act) hurts students. There–I said it. Gather the kindling, stoke the fire, and erect the stake. I’ll strap myself to it. It would be better to burn alive at the hands of those that claim they are “helping kids” than watch the ship of education go down the way it is.

You know–I have seen so many kids come in with “disabilities.” Sadly, that word now means they “just can’t turn things in” or “have trouble completing work on time.” It used to be that those lessons would be learned-either through failure or through success but they held consequence. Now, these academic faults are now labeled disabilities that require “accommodations.” These accommodations are interpreted to mean that as a teacher, I am required by federal law to ignore deadlines, take half-way completed and often illegible work, allow students to take and re-take tests, and generally throw my ethics as a teacher out the window.

Public or private–doesn’t matter. I am put in the classroom and paid by the community to teach the children in the area that my school services. However, when the federal IDEA gets involved, parents are allowed to wield an unfairly powerful sword against teachers, administrators, counselors, and by extension the tax payers. Teachers are legally not ALLOWED to say no. To say no, would be to deny a child his/her equal access to education–no matter the bogus diagnosis.

(ha that [slant] rhymed!)

The saddest part? Schools know. Teachers know. Administrators and counselors know. Our hands are tied in the face of IDEA. I can not fight the lobby of special education parents to ensure that little Amy learns her lesson when she does not turn in a single report all year long. Unfortunately, because of little Amy’s “accommodations” she is allowed to turn in everything in the last 3 weeks of school. Amy’s parents say it is my fault she didn’t turn it in. Never mind the webpage where assignments are posted, or the calendars, the emails, the phone calls–none of it is as important as little Amy’s sense of “you can do it.”

I do not say this without knowledge of the needs of Special Education. I am the sister, the aunt, and the daughter of Autistics. I have seen the good that IDEA has brought for my family. However–the purpose of IDEA was NEVER to provide an easy weapon against schools. It was NEVER meant to be used to give students and parents a way to bully schools (and honestly the communities they serve) into making exceptions to ethical obligations. It was meant to ensure quality education for students in a way that was appropriate. I know my brother will never complete a sentence on paper. He can tie his shoes and recite his phone number. He is 23 and happily lives with my parents. IDEA made that happen and we couldn’t be more satisfied. That is what IDEA was supposed to do.

I’m a teacher and I’m mad–but as a taxpayer who is being bullied by a group of parents that could care less about the purpose and goal of education–aren’t you even more angry?

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posted a comment at 6:00 PM and it has disappeared…must be the Blog monster [Censor]

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Evil Old English Teacher (love that name!): It will show up eventually. Sometimes it takes a while.

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*they – pardon the typo

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The entire Georgia Education System is a sham and farce or should I say the United States. First of all, Elementary Schools and Parents are where the problems start. Elementary Schools fail children because teachers to often give grades because Johnny sits quiet and he does the best he can on his work. Then, Mary is a smart girl but her behavior is terrible and she gets all the breaks in the world because she is an A student. By the time Johnny and Mary get in 5th grade – Johnny has A’s and B’s but can’t read or add and subtract and Mary is a smart girl but she is now cursing out the teachers, walk out of class and tell the teacher what she is not going to do. They allow children in elementary school to do anything and they want teachers to change grades to please parents. Johnny, mom is the VP of the PTA so the teachers feel intimidated and afraid to tell them that Johnny can’t read. This is what we have in elementary school. Until, the Principals and teachers be real and the system allow teachers to truly and really do their jobs you will continue to have children being pushed on because of their good behavior with A’s and B’s but can’t read or write a five word sentence and don’t mention add or subtract. Then, you will still have behavior problems that goes unnoticed in elementary school because the Principals hands are tied. Wake up Kathy Cox and all your big time Staff and see Education in Georgia for what it really is “F”.

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Let’s talk about the big test…CRCT.. can Kathy Cox or someone on her staff please tell me why do we give the CRCT? Please tell me why they stress students and teachers out with the CRCT when it is a joke. They make the big speech about if students in 3rd and 5th grade fail the CRCT they will be RETAINED>> This is just a Joke and a Myth and the children as well as the parents know it. The students do not care because they have seen to many of their neighbors and friends go on to 4th and 6th grade without passing the test. This is a joke and then, a kid could make F’s all year and pass one test and go on to the next grade is also dumb. This is one reason why children do not put forth any effort in school because they know all they need to do is pass the CRCT or come within a point or two and they will be promoted anyway. First of all Kathy, you all need to get on One Accord if a child fails the test then they will Repeat the grade regardless of how many times they fail the test. 2. You all will allow teachers to teach and then you all will go back to the basics “See Dick Run” and “Run Dick Run”. Something should be in place for children to be successful and pass on to the next grade but it must be something that represents what the child has been taught during the year. The curriculum for the State of Georgia sucks and it is No Way that the teachers have enough time to teach all the skills children need to be successful. In 5th grade teachers teach a new math skill everyday. How in the world can children truly understand a skill taught in one day with no time for reinforcement. When you were coming up Kathy, you didn’t have to learn a skill in one day, you were taught one skill a week with much repetition but not today. All the teachers do in Georgia is introduce a student to a skill/concept and move on they do not teach for Mastery. Mastery is what students should be taught not just See it and Move on to something New. Kathy, you all need to use real teachers and allow teachers and principals to tell you all the truth about the curriculum because it is failing our kids in Georgia at an all time High. Speak to Real People and I am sure you can find some teachers that will tell you the truth and not be afraid of losing their job. You all need help with this mess of an Education in Goergia because we are at the Bottom of the barrell and even our A students graduating has trouble entering college and feel left out and behind. Use the stimulus money and get a new Curriculum and definitely a New Math Series for Elementary Schools.

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I find Cathy Cox’s pronouncements either grossly ignorant, or out of touch, or insulting. Maybe all three.

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8:44 and my post from 6PM still not here. What a shock…oh well..going back to chalk box from which I came.

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Who should be surprised about the necessity of expensive remediation programs in Georgia’s public colleges when there is a dearth of effective remediation programs in the secondary, middle, and elementary schools of our state’s public school system?

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How can Kathy have a convesation on this topic WITHOUT ONE WORD about the pressure teachers face to inflate grades?

One question the AJC, if it were doing its job would ask. Did Doc Neese “kowtow to low expectations” or was he railroaded for having high expectations?

But then what else to you expect from someone who was willing to destroy the integrity of the state science curriculum by kowtowing to those who would remove the word evolution from the curriculum?

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Laura: This article must have hit a nerve. I actually did not think that my above post was published. I just saw it. Thanks for publishing it. The grade-give-away program is a universal problem, but very acutely so in the metro area. I talked to one of our attorneys tonight about an up-coming hearing, and he, not knowing anything about your article, said that Dr. [Name Withheld by me]’s only “sin” was that she refused to just give the kids grades when they did not deserve them. Wonder of wonders…she has standards. (Kathy Cox…are you listening? By the way, Kathy, I attended the Fayette County Board of Education meeting tonight [your ole stomping grounds], and I do not think that this school system has sunk to the depths of DeKalb and Atlanta yet. I hope that it maintains its standards. My children live in Fayette County.) Where does Dr. [Name Withheld by me] teach? You guessed it…at a high school in “Premier” DeKalb. I re-read what I hastily wrote earlier today and posted. I saw three glaring typos. Sorry. Next time, I will proof my posts better…I hope. Good job, Laura. Teachers in Georgia definitely need a sounding board. To “Old School 1″ and “Old School 2,” keep up the posting.

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I teach Economics at one of the high schools listed in that very long chart and I can tell one very important reason for the lack of correlation between passing EOCT scores and passing grades. Simply put, I’m not allowed to have students fail. If my students are failing it is my fault and I am brought before administration to explain why.

If I show the 0’s in my grade book due to work not being done, I am not challenging my students enough, otherwise they would be happy to do my work. If the work is challenging, I am too hard and should scale it back. I should also not assign homework because realistically students today don’t learn from homework.

If I try to explain material, I lecture too much. If I do projects, my rigor is too low. If I were more entertaining or exciting my students would be delighted to learn Economics.
Really? Have you taken an Economics class? Is it that entertaining? I am passionate about it (I wouldn’t have taught it for so many years otherwise) but even I know it can be dry at times and is not for everyone. However it can be learned even if you don’t like it. Just like anything else in this world.

We are so afraid of AYP in today’s schools that we will do anything to pass… anything. We are afraid of law suits so we don’t want to be too challenging or fail too many. We don’t want to look like failures so we can’t have low graduation or passing rates. Don’t want to deal with parents? Pass the student. Don’t want to hurt their feelings? Give them an “A” for effort. After the last article on this subject came out, administrations in many schools glossed over it and didn’t want to talk about it. Why? Because they knew they were guilty of the offense too and did not want to examine that reality.

Do you honestly think students don’t learn all this? They really aren’t stupid, they can figure all of this out and pass the information on to their peers. Students learn to work the system as much as anyone else and they can and do it every day and WE as schools hand them the tools to do it. Truthfully, as frustrating as it can be as a teacher, why should I blame them? We’ve encouraged them to act this way and designed a system that rewards them for lack of effort.

Oh and don’t forget that we all must be on the same page at the same time. If you teach the same subject, you must be on the same topic each day regardless of whether you teach AP, ESOL, so called college prep or small group special education. If you are going to fast you need to slow down, don’t worry if you can’t cover everything that might be on the test as long you cover some of it really well – of course don’t have your students actually fail the test, because that is a reflection on you (I once had an administrator say those exact words to me). If you are too slow, you need to speed up so that you are on pace with everyone else – if your students need more time to learn, that is your fault and no one else’s. Some readers might think I am joking but teachers know the reality of this idea.

Students end up in classes that say “it’s ok you can take all semester to turn in work.” “Oh you put your name on it? Great you get at least a 50 for trying”. I’ve spent years listening to people say “teach the standards” and I say “ok I’ll do it”. Now Kathy Cox is saying “we’ve kowtowed to the low expectations”. I’d like her to tell me what to do? How do I grade by standards? If I say a student should know how money income flows from businesses to households and back in the form of payments, am I allowed to fail them on that standard if they can’t explain it? If I offer extra help and they don’t take it? Because right now, I’m not and I don’t know any more what to do.

And let’s be honest… how many parents will let us change the system? Will you agree to it if it is your child who fails? If it is your child who does not go to the college of his or her choice?

I really don’t know the answer anymore and the reasons why are so large and so complicated that any one person or group can not take responsibility. We as a society have created this mess and until we are willing to admit that the whole thing is messed up we will never recover.

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Here are some free-market SOLUTIONS to government school failures:

1. Teachers, vow that you will never work for a government school monopoly, but only a free- market school. START a private school in your area if one does not exist. Offer Internet courses in your specialty for a fee (see WriteAtHome.com). Get creative! If you remain in a sub-standard school, compromising your standards, yet continuing to take a taxpayer supported paycheck, YOU are part of the problem!!!!

2. IF NO ONE COMES, THEY WILL NOT BUILD IT!
Want to save billions in tax dollars by NOT building schools? Parents, pull your kids out of failing, debt-ridden schools and home school them or find a private school. Churches should start more private schools and offer reduced tuition.

3. K-3rd ARE THE MOST CRITICAL YEARS IN EDUCATION! Reading, writing, and arithmetic lay the foundation for all other academic pursuits. Studying the Bible gives the child a firm moral foundation and a standard by which to evaluate behavior, literature, and philosophy. Why do you think the government schools have such moral chaos? The students have been turned away from this Biblical foundation.

WROTE LEARNING IS THE BEST METHOD FOR THIS AGE GROUP. Their brains are geared for it. As they get older, their capacity to memorize decreases, and their logic skills increase.

WROTE MEMORIZATION OF ALL ADDITION, SUBTRACTION, MULTIPLICATION, AND DIVISION FACTS SHOULD BE MASTERED BY 3rd grade. Because he has done this, my EIGHT year old can do long division and multiple digit multiplication. He can also manipulate fractions and uses origami to build various polyhedra.
PARENTS, PLEASE MAKE YOUR CHILDREN MEMORIZE THOSE FACTS!
Here is a FREE website with a great no-nonsense math fact drill. Their math curriculum is a good supplement for helping students VISUALIZE math.
http://www.mathusee.com/drill.html

MANY CHILDREN CAN BE TAUGHT TO READ AND WRITE BY AGE 4!
ALL BY AGE 5. If the child has learning disabilities, it may take longer.
HOW? Again, WROTE memorization of PHONICS opens the door to decoding. Also, reading aloud to children and having them “narrate” in their own words, increases reading comprehension and vocabulary. Handwriting should be taught with phonics. Teach the sound of consonants and how to write them first. Only after they have MASTERED them, teach short vowels. Next teach consonant -vowel blends such as SA, SE, SI, SO, SU. Next, add a consonant and your child can read three letter words. Let them practice, practice, practice. Teach the long vowels in the same manner. Now, this is the big leap. Teach the two vowel rule: When there are two vowels in a word, the first one is long and the other is silent. Now your child can read a whole new group of words- enough to read a basic reader. None of this guessing and looking at pictures to figure out the word! Begin working on three consonant blends like “str”. Next, teach compound words and sounding out by syllables. Finally, using wrote chanting, memorize spelling irregularities such as “or” in sailor, “ir” in bird, and “ur” in nurse. This method teaches your child to spell as he learns to read. This is a brief overview of one of the most successful reading/spelling/phonics programs.
This curriculum can be found in an inexpensive little book called “The Handbook for Reading” (sorry, I don’t know how to underline) at https://www.abeka.com/AbekaOnline/BookDescription.aspx?sbn=94927&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

4. Parents, if you currently have no choice but to use the government schools, don’t settle for curriculum that doesn’t work for your child. The homes chool free market has produced hundreds of alternative curricula and methods at a reasonable cost. Most can be purchased used. Check out home school reviews on the web and visit home school book fairs. Many offer video teachers. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE TO PREPARE YOUR CHILD FOR THEIR FUTURE. DON’T SQUANDER OTHER’S MONEY BECAUSE OF SLOTHFULNESS. IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE. HELP ABOUNDS!

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Fraid not Ernest. What it does confirm is a tremndous need for common sense, something sorely lacking in education for the past 40 years.

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When our son was in high school we attended one of the DeKalb touchdown club dinners. When the players who were being recognized that week were announced, they gave the GPA and the SAT score for each one. It was amazing the number of straight A students with an SAT score (old version 1600 max) in the mid 800s or low 900s. I told my husband there was something seriously wrong with those pictures. I know some students who are smart and work hard have trouble with standardized tests, but there were way too many of these to attirbute it to poor test taking. I was shocked and dismayed. Our son was at St. Pius and was held accountable for his work and behavior (he too said his classes in college were easier than high school).

My son went on to college and is about to graduate (on time). He talks about the number of kids who register for a full load to get Hope, then drop any class they aren’t doing well in to make sure they keep the Hope scholarship. They can’t graduate in 4 years this way and are taking 5 or even 6 years in many cases. Eventually Hope does stop paying, but in the meantime the colleges love it – more revenue for them, but it’s doing a disservice to the current students and the potential students who may not be able to get Hope funding.

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freemarketeducator May 5th, 2009 3:34 am: The correct term would be ROTE.

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Main Entry: (2)rote
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English
Date: 14th century
1 : the use of memory usually with little intelligence
2 : mechanical or unthinking routine or repetition

If more of our students had this “old-fashioned” method of instruction and less time with calculators and computers, they just might build a solid foundation upon which to craft a successful educational career.

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All of these are really good responses. So why are we not copying and pasting our “vents” into letters and sending them to the congressmen, senators, and state superintendents?
She/they really need a daily dose of reality.

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Are we forgetting about the graduation test? Even if students ARE being passed along from grade to grade due to grade inflation, etc., they still have to pass the graduation test to graduate. That test is supposedly based on mastery of the standards. So maybe part of the problem is with the graduation test. No teacher can graduate a student who hasn’t passed that test. No amount of grade inflation will allow a student to pass that test and graduate.

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teacher three, according to the State’s 2008 Testing Newsletter, a student has to be reading at a higher level to get “Pass Plus” on the 6th grade CRCT than to get it on the GHSGT…page 18 of the testing newsletter found on the Testing page of the DOE website.

Looks like Kathy Cox and the rest of the DOE are “kowtowing to low expectations”, doesn’t it?

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And what does a free market education get you? It gives you someone who thinks rote memory and rote learning are wrote memory and wrote learning. Egad!

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I agree 100 percent with Metro Economics Teacher (and I actually really enjoyed econ when I took it in college, by the way).

I also wanted to add that while I actually did consider going into teaching for some time about 12 years ago, I decided that wasn’t what I wanted to do. After following this blog, I am REALLY glad I decided against teaching. The stuff teachers have to deal with, the inept bureacracy, the failure to actually set standards and STICK to those standards … no way would I want to deal with that, day in, day out, for 25-30 years of my life.

Having said that, I absolutely applaud those who do go in there, try their best and teach, regardless of the rampant stupidity they have to deal with every single day.

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The powers that be in my county have come up with so many creative solutions to help us make AYP that it isn’t even funny. They make all these elaborate proclamations that kids WILL be retained if they fail this test or that test, blah blah, but then turn right around and create so many loopholes that very few end up being retained.

My principal is estimating that at least 100 8th graders in my building may not pass the math portion of the CRCT test. There are plans underway to create a “math bootcamp” for the last week of school were these students are pulled out of ALL classes for the and immersed in math in an effort to help them pass the test on the retake.

Now, I’m not a betting woman, but if I were, I’d imagine that spending 50-60 hours a week on math on the LAST WEEK OF SCHOOL is not that high on the list of priorities for a 14 year old. Who is going to bet with me that more than a few of those will not pass that test?

And to make things even more wonderful, we also use what is called the “Lights Retention Scale” to determine whether or not students should be with held. Never mind that it isn’t supported by more than a few studies, is contradictory, and that it actually blames genetics for part of a kids failure in school.

And people wonder why most teachers drink.

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Sometimes I just can’t help myself. Freemarketeducator, you would do well to practice some of what you preach. Besides your ridiculous misuse of the word “rote,” you assert that “studying the Bible gives the child a firm moral foundation and a standard by which to evaluate behavior, literature, and philosophy.” It would seem to me that REASON is what underscores a child’s evaluative abilities, not the hocus pocus mumbo jumbo found in the Bible. Furthermore, nearly all human morals and ethics can be derived logically from rational behavior. For a detailed analysis of such a concept, I would refer you to Ayn Rand’s The Virtue of Selfishness.

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To all:
I’m sorry I wrote wrote when I meant to write rote
However, my 8 year old can write rote just right! (He had phonics; I had Dick and Jane.)

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vendetta,
Why don’t you use your reasoning skills and equally apply your spelling critiques to all educators’ posts? I admit, my post was a “rough draft”. I know how to spell “rote”, but I post very late at night, and sometimes the old brain slips into automatic mode and spells with the most frequently used spelling. Perhaps my “look/say” public school education contributed to this mishap, yes?

As for selfish Ayn Rand vs. God, I’ll deal with it tomorrow. It’s late.

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vendetta
For starters, you might not want to use your “hocus pocus mumbo jumbo found in the Bible” anti-semitic/anti-christ hate speech in the classroom. Check this out:

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Judge-Rules-Against-SoCal-Teacher-in-Creationism-Case.html

But, I digress.

I have never been interested in reading Rand’s (a.k.a. Alisa Rosenbaum) work, although I have certainly heard of her novels. After researching her philosophy on the internet, I was even less impressed. However, I did find an interesting blog which considers her to be a Russian Communist subversive. It is interesting to note that Alan Greenspan was once part of her inner circle of influence.
Tell me what you think of this:
http://jewishracism.blogspot.com/2008/01/ron-paul-ayn-rand-and-trust.html

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This is just a test. Let’s see if anyone at the AJC is actually reading the posts late at night, or if they just use a robot reader to recognize certain “hot” words which results in a hold on one’s comment. This is just a test.
anti-christ

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Vendetta,

I must say, your response is driven by emotion rather than reason. I did not threaten you. I merely warned you of consequences based on legal precedent (whether I agree with the ruling or not) for exactly the type of speech you made on this blog. This is a current ruling. I was just trying to keep you out of trouble in the classroom. My kids aren’t in public school. I don’t have a dog in this fight.

But I digress.
Now, let’s rationally analyze the following statement you made:

“I instantly dismiss anyone who brings up the negative use of the word “selfishness” in regards to Ayn Rand because it’s immediately clear that they have not read her work and fundamentally misunderstand her philosophy of Objectivism.”

First, let’s get a rational and objective definition of “selfish”.
According to Webster, 1. too much concerned with one’s own welfare or interests and having little or no concern for others; self-centered 2. showing or prompted by self interest.

Selfishness denotes the precedence given in thought or deed to the self, i.e., self interest or self concern. It is the act of placing one’s own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others. Selfishness is the opposite of altruism (selflessness). (Wikipedia)

The Webster version is copyrighted 1982 (predating Wikipedia) and by definition, selfish is defined as a negative trait because of the use of “too much concerned with”. Rand was using classic Soviet brainwash methods by taking a well-defined and broadly understood word and redefining it to mean something entirely different or opposite. The Bible succinctly addresses this practice,”Woe unto you who call evil good and good evil.” There is no “negative view” of “selfishness”. It is what it is. If Rand were a true and honest philosopher, she would have created her own word for her ideas on “positive” self-worship. The blogger’s critique was accurate according to the proper use of the word “selfish”. Creating confusion is part of the subversive’s strategy.

Here is another blogger’s critique of Rand’s “Immortal Robot” argument:

“Some Objectivists oppose or are at least skeptical of indefinite human life extension on the grounds that immortal human beings would be akin to the “immortal, indestructible robot” Ayn Rand described and alleged cannot have any values. Mr. Stolyarov argues that it will never be possible for human beings to be completely indestructible, even if they progressively eliminate various causes of death. The absence of death does not imply the absence of the possibility of death, even for so simple a reason as that human beings can always choose (however foolishly and irrationally) to commit suicide. Moreover, even if there existed an immortal, indestructible robot with otherwise human properties, Mr. Stolyarov argues that such a being can have values, because the threat of being destroyed is not a conscious entity’s sole motive for acting.”
The full YOUtube video critique here:
http://progressofliberty.today.com/2008/12/31/eliminating-death-7/

I have more to write tomorrow.

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freemarketeducator, I thank you for including the definitions of “selfishness” in your post. You are helping me to prove my point. The second definition provided by Webster’s states that selfishness is “showing or prompted by self interest.” I don’t find anything at all negative about that assertion nor do I find anything negative in the definition you provided from Wikipedia: “Selfishness denotes the precedence given in thought or deed to the self, i.e., self interest or self concern. It is the act of placing one’s own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others. Selfishness is the opposite of altruism (selflessness).”

As a morality of altruism is inherently evil because it requires a person to willingly and inarguably sacrifice himself to others, I find the Wikipedia definition to be quite positive. Since when is a rational self interest evil or negative? You say it is defined as a “negative trait because of the use of ‘too much concerned with,’” but that is in relation to only one meaning of the word. I would argue that the definition you quote denotes irrational selfishness while the second denotes a more rational view. The Wikipedia definition seems skewed more to a rational definition as well. I don’t think you need to use “Soviet brainwash methods” to understand that.

What you’re doing is known in philosophy as “begging the question.” You’re assuming you are right because you are assuming “selfishness” to be negative and only negative. Your use of the “succinct” Bible quote supports my assertion. I’m not “creating confusion” in order to be subversive; I’m simply pointing out facts.

Once again, you refer to a blogger who doesn’t seem to have a firm grasp of Objectivism or Objectivist ethics. Rand’s immortal robot argument was an attempt to explain the non-identity of a supreme or eternal being by its very (supposed) nature. It seems that Stolyarov is missing the point. Rand’s argument centers on an understanding of Aristotle’s law of identity (A is A), i.e., an entity cannot possess more than one identity. It argues that reality is explicit and knowable and cannot possess contradictory features. Though he is correct in (hypothetically) assuming that the immortal robot could be destroyed, he is consequently missing Rand’s point: Because the robot is not living, it cannot value the same things a living entity values. The concept of a supreme being violates the law of identity because such a being is outside the realm of human perception, immortal, omniscient, yet somehow maintains a humanistic value system.

The reason god has a humanistic value system is because WE have a humanistic value system.

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freemarketeducator,
Wow. Just . . . wow. So, your pragmatic view of definitions holds that the “commonly accepted” definition was the ONLY definition of “selfishness” pre-Rand? And that the Wikipedia definition (cited by YOU, I might add), was obviously written by a “Randite” with the intention of “displacing Biblical theology?” I’m also having trouble understanding how Rand’s philosophical opinion of man’s fall was “hidden,” as you say–considering I quoted it in one of my first responses to your earlier posts.

Furthermore, what is your definition of “objective Truth?” Since you capitalize the word “truth,” I’m assuming you are somehow implying that the the Bible is “objective truth.” Considering you’re fond of using definitions in an attempt to support your points, allow me to use a definition in support of mine. “Objective,” as defined by Merriam-Webster, means ” relating to or existing as an object of thought without consideration of independent existence —used chiefly in medieval philosophy b: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind.” It’s second definition is grammar related, so I’ll skip to the third: “expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations.”

It would seem to me “objective” is the opposite of “faith.”

In that case, Rand absolutely believed in objective truth. She thought that man was a capable being and that his mind was his means for interpreting reality. Man’s purpose in life is LIFE. He needs no higher purpose to justify his existence because HE EXISTS. His ethics, goals, and morals stem from his rational pursuit of his own existence. (The Bible is not the originator of morals, by the way. Morals can be logically derived from objectivity and reason–see Rand’s The Virtue of Selfishness.) Rand felt that capitalism was the only proper economic system because it rewards men based on their ability and vision; it eschews a morality of altruism. The idea you proposed of “Biblical capitalism” is a negation of logic and a contradiction of terms: How can any sort of altruism exist in a free economy? Charity should not be forced nor expected.

I would also point out that I am making a concerted effort to respond to the entirety of your posts while you seem content to focus on a detail and attempt to exploit it to your advantage. I suppose, though cannot prove, that your knowledge of Rand is limited to secondhand sources and religious polemicists who dream up conspiracy theories that are not based in any sort of reality, history, and/or science. Until you find something more concrete with which to continue this debate, I would implore you to spare me the blog sources, online articles, and anecdotal tales.

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Another oops! Make that Benjamin HARRISON. Yes, they would wonder who Harris is. My bad.

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vendetta,
In answer to your second point on “objective Truth”, I’ll quote the Bible:

“Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.” Romans 3:4b (God has reality independent of man’s mind)

also, “…what may be know of God is manifest in them (men), for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools…” Romans 1:19-22

Assumptions underlying Rand’s philosophy:
1. Man is the highest form of intelligence.
2. Survival is the ultimate goal of life.
4. Man is the product of random events, and has no more importance than a rock. Life and nonliving objects are on a continuum.
5. There is no outside moral standard by which to judge man. Each individual is his own standard and all are equal. Therefore, all behavior is acceptable.
6. Man’s senses give him perfect information.
7. Man has no free-will because there is nothing to choose. All “choices” are equal.
8. Death is the end because mind and senses cease to function.
9. Death and life are equal, so her claim that the only meaning of life is Life, is false. It could be death.
10. If all the matter in the universe were gathered into one place, it would explode and emanate light and organized mathematical geometries and forces. (Could you please explain to me then, why we have black holes?
11. The origin of the matter CANNOT be an intelligent being.
12. There is no explanation for the origin of the matter.

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So, let me get this straight:

To refute my definition of selfishness and explanation of (your) use of the word “objective” and its dictionary definition, you use a quote from the Bible? Am I missing something here? It seems to me that you’re doing what most slavish biblical devotionists do in this situation–create an argument that travels in circles because you have no OBJECTIVE ground on which to stand. The only “proof” you can claim comes from a book with no proof behind ANY of its claims–only FAITH. It’s hard to argue from faith.

I must say, some of your “assumptions underlying Rand’s philosophy” are just plain insipid, and I shudder to think that, based on your blog name, you teach children somewhere. I’ll point a few of them out for you:

2. “Survival is the ultimate goal in life.” Of course it is! To assume otherwise is to assume that this life means very little. To assume otherwise is to have a very poor opinion of man and to think of man as a pet or a slave. To assume otherwise is to worship a morality of death.

5. “There is no outside moral standard by which to judge man. Each individual is his own standard and all are equal. Therefore, all behavior is acceptable.” That’s anarchism, not Objectivism. Man’s mind gives him the power to think rationally and further his self interests in a rational way. No behavior that infringes on another man’s right to exist and pursue his own existence is acceptable, i.e., moral.

7. “Man has no free-will because there is nothing to choose. All “choices” are equal.” This is a non sequitor, i.e., a negation of logic and a contradiction in terms. Consciousness is a volitional act. Man chooses to rationally pursue his interests or to negate them and perish. Since the results of his choices can vary, it is impossible to say that all choices are equal.

8. “Death is the end because mind and senses cease to function.” Death IS the end. To think otherwise is to be arrogant and irrational. There is no reason to think that there is any existence beyond mortality (irrational), and there is no reason to think that we DESERVE any existence beyond mortality (arrogant). That’s akin to saying we deserve to live, which is fundamentally untrue. We must work to live.

9. “Death and life are equal, so her claim that the only meaning of life is Life, is false. It could be death.” This is just Kantian nonsense. Life cannot be death. Death, by its very nature, is an absence of life.

11. “The origin of the matter CANNOT be an intelligent being.” An Objectivist would never say that because it’s not inherently proven. A true Objectivist would say, “It’s PROBABLY not an intelligent being.” The opposite of your statement would be to say, “It IS an intelligent being,” which is also impossible to prove.

As for your biographical information about Ayn Rand, I must continually question your sources and their motivations. It seems to make little sense that a woman born in Russia, who lived through the Bolshevik Revolution, would embrace the political upheaval that left her middle class family’s business government owned and operated–causing them to escape to the Crimea. Also, it would defy logic that a college graduate would flee to the United States (after the University of Petrograd would taken over by Communists) if her secret communist ties would have allowed her to live in relative luxury in Russia. Furthermore, Ayn Rand has produced an enormous amount of philisophical writing, not to mention her four works of fiction, and none of them contain any viewpoints even remotely communist, collectivist, socialist, statist, Marxist, or altruistic. Your “sources” amount to little more than conspiracy theories and uneducated nonsense espoused by those who know as much about Ayn Rand as they do about Quantum Mechanics.

Once again, unless you plan on debating a topic without begging the question or relying on invalid “sources,” I will consider this a conversation not worth having.

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