Do you trust the CRCT?
Welcome back from Spring Break. I hope you all had a restful week and a happy holiday.
It’s test season in metro Atlanta. Some kids will start taking the CRCT tomorrow, while other districts will begin giving the test over the next two weeks.
The controversial test became more so last spring after early results showed about 70 percent of the sixth- and seventh-graders failed the social studies exams and about 40 percent of eighth-graders failed the math.
Parents and teachers were outraged, with many accusing the state of developing faulty tests.
State schools Superintendent Kathy Cox ultimately threw out the social studies results, citing a breakdown between the test questions, the new curriculum and what teachers taught. But she let the math results stand.
Since then the state developed new social studies standards and new exams. Teachers across the state received training on the new curriculum. Also, in math, the state and local school district provided teachers with more training and students with more extra help.
Is this enough to prevent a repeat of what happened last year?
How much faith do you have in the exams?
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91 comments Add your comment
jim d
April 14th, 2009
11:56 am
Voice
good points, i was just throwing out some suggestions.
As for the theft of government–I GAVE NOTHING, it was in fact liberated from me against my will, surrendered by others. I will personally be attending a rally of over a million people (hopefully) on 11/12/2009 in DC to demand it be returned. If you’d care to join us you can sign up here— http://www.freedomsfirst.org/
ScienceTeacher671
April 14th, 2009
11:56 am
VOICE, I agree that we need accountability, but the General Assembly and the state DOE apparently just want an illusion of accountability.
My problem is not with testing per se. However, when the cut scores are set so low that the testing tells us little to nothing, and when students can be promoted even when they don’t meet those low cut scores, what is the purpose?
jim d
April 14th, 2009
11:56 am
oops 9/12/2009
jim d
April 14th, 2009
12:00 pm
Voice,
CHOICE is actually the only method of holding our public schools accountable. As I indicated before, everything else is merely lip service that will fail to get er done.
ScienceTeacher671
April 14th, 2009
12:03 pm
Very odd how some posts on this board appear instantly, others appear hours later, and some seem to appear, disappear, then reappear later.
jim d, I’d argue that CHOICE might work in metro Atlanta, but for those of us in more rural areas where public schools are miles apart and there are very few private schools, improving the public schools may be the only real option.
ScienceTeacher671
April 14th, 2009
12:24 pm
hmmmm…should I retype the posts that never appeared, or assume they’ll show up sometime tonight or tomorrow?
VOICE
April 14th, 2009
12:27 pm
Jim d, not to change the subject of this blog, but I would join the rally if we didn’t already have the means to correct “the theft of government”. It’s kinda like the CRCT, we have something in place, maybe not working as it should, but let’s improve it. Simply put, a rally of millions ain’t necessary, just vote the bums out at the end of their terms. The founding fathers had the right idea to start with.
Meanwhile, we should probably take a hard look at this 2-party system that we have. I know that we have other parties, but are they a real factor in our elections, especially on the national level?
Finally, I must agree with you. CHOICE could eliminate the need for the CRCT, and CHOICE can also reclaim our governments. The CHOICE actually belongs to us. Ain’t America GREAT!
Private School Guy
April 14th, 2009
12:28 pm
Why not use random testing on randomly selected students. If results indicate that there is a problem them more testing could be given to a wider range of students. There would be no weeks spent preping for testing since no one would know when testing will occur. This would be cheaper and consume less educational time.
If a parent felt their child was not getting a good education they could request testing.
But those in the testing business would profit less.
Reality2
April 14th, 2009
12:42 pm
Science Teacher:
I don’t disagree that the CRCT implementation has problems – starting with but certainly not limited to how the cut scores are established. However, that’s a policy issue, not the issue with the quality of the test. We can easily remedy that by simply establishing a new set of cut scores.
If we go with a test like the ITBS, how do we know if students are learning what they are expected to learn? How are teachers to decide what to teach? What’s the point of having state standards if teachers will be teaching to the ITBS (or whatever)? Is there a science ITBS test? Or social studies? Doesn’t it vary from state to state what might be the emphasis (life science/earth science/etc.) in Grade 8 science curriculum? A nationally normed test does serve some purposes, but we also need a way to make sure students are learning what we are expecting them to learn (and teachers are teaching those topics), too.
jim d
April 14th, 2009
12:46 pm
Voice,
an interesting moniker you use there–I CHOOSE to make MY VOICE heard. I encourage other to do the same, leave us not wait until we are silenced to attempt to raise our voices. The sound we can make is one long missing in this great nation and one that our founding fathers attempted to assure would exist as long as we do.
YES AMERICA IS GREAT! Largely due to this– “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Time to exercise those rights!
Reality2
April 14th, 2009
2:51 pm
Science Teacher,
I’ve had the same experiences. Some posts appear immediately after I hit “Submit Commtent,” while others will show up several hours later. In fact, I don’t see the response I entered to your post, which I submitted about an hour ago yet. I have no idea what’s happening.
VOICE,
I’m not sure how choice will eliminate the need for the CRCT. Wouldn’t intellligent consumers demand data to make their choices?
jim d
April 14th, 2009
3:19 pm
“a rally of millions ain’t necessary”
but we can because we are Great!
Back on topic— Testing a kid to make them smarter is like weighing a pig to make it fatter. It just don’t work. When you want the pig to fatten up you FEED them.
VOICE
April 14th, 2009
3:22 pm
Yep, they would demand data, but not necessarily an assessment like the CRCT. Intelligent consumers may prefer the number of Division I schools accepting the graduates, or the actual graduation rate. But, CHOICE would be at the heart of their decision. Meanwhile, competition would either drive the others out of business or make them adjust to improve.
As I suggested earlier, CHOICE has shortcomings, too. But overall, it will probably render a better system and product.
jim d
April 14th, 2009
3:23 pm
Reality 2,
I’m afraid you may have fallen into the trap of believing that all are the same. Allowing people the freedom to select the schools their children attend would be based on unique–different criteria that fills their individual need.
Reality2
April 14th, 2009
3:31 pm
VOICE & jum d
I don’t disagree with what you are saying – except whether or not school choice will really improve education outcomes – but different consumers need/want different data. So, schools will have to produce all kinds of data that are important to some people – so ITBS, CRCT, Division 1 (I suppose if your kids are in athletics, that’s important???), drop out rates, student-teacher ratio, teacher-administrator ratio, PTA participation rate, etc. etc. Will the consumers be satisfied with the self-reported “data” or do they want something that can be independently confirmed? I suppose some schools can decide what data may be economically feasible to gather to recruit students.
jim d
April 14th, 2009
3:38 pm
Reality 2,
Here’s the real thing. The burden of a childs education becomes thaat of the parent and their choices. Freeing government of that resposability. Let’s look at it this way; If you buy a car that turns out to be a piece of crap you don’t keep driving it, you trade it in and get one you are happy with. That same premise will work in education.
jim d
April 14th, 2009
3:46 pm
Reality 2,
Let me add that with choice there will be parents that make poor choices. Do I care? Not really! I believe though that the vast majority of parents do not want to see their kids spending a lifetime at Mackie D’s or the BK lounge flipping burgers and are quite capable of making informed , intelligent choices to assure they have every opportunity to succeed.
VOICE
April 14th, 2009
4:05 pm
Reality 2,
I think Jim d is on point. Again, CHOICE is not a “cure-all”, but it moves us in the right direction. And, you are right, schools will have to produce all kinds of data, which may or may not be independently confirmed. It’s whatever the consumer wants.
Just consider why so many foreigners come to the US to attend our colleges and universities. These same people would not give a dime to attend our K-12. CHOICE and COMPETITION help to make our university system probably the best in the world. However, we are rapidly loosing ground because of the failure of k-12. This must and will CHANGE.
Jim d, I also think a number of factors will force us to adopt CHOICE as the standard. Will discuss later.
jim d
April 14th, 2009
5:06 pm
Reality 2,
I gotta admit you gave me a chuckle with this one. “Will the consumers be satisfied with the self-reported “data” or do they want something that can be independently confirmed?”
They accept what they arae now given–GO FIGURE!!
Reality 2
April 14th, 2009
5:17 pm
I found it interesting to contrast the faith you seem to have parents (for making informed choices) and all those complaints we often see in this forum about uninvolved parents and parents who can’t (won’t) discipline their kids.
Of course, another important factor is affordability – choices without affordability is really not a choice.
ScienceTeacher671
April 14th, 2009
9:04 pm
9 hours later and 2 of my posts haven’t shown up yet. I’m still betting they will eventually, but just in case…
VOICE, I agree we need accountability, both from the teachers and from the students. My point is that with the cut scores set so low, and no consequences even if the low bar is not met, the CRCT and other Georgia tests don’t give us accountability yet – but I agree that they *could* be used for accountability if reasonable cut scores were set, and if there were consequences for not passing.
jim d, theoretically I like the idea of choice, and I think it might be of some use in the metro area where there are already a lot of choices, but here in rural Georgia where public schools are not close together, quality private schools are almost non-existent, and there is no public transportation available, I think it’s a non-starter. Improving the quality of public education is, practically speaking, our only option.
ScienceTeacher671
April 14th, 2009
9:24 pm
jim d, when you want to fatten a pig, you feed it, but when you want to know how fat it’s gotten, you WEIGH it.
jim d
April 15th, 2009
3:08 am
ST671,
generally speaking you OBSERVE it, only weighing when you are about to slaughter.
jim d
April 15th, 2009
5:38 am
I have concluded that the primary flaw with these types of tests is that they attempt to measure in volume that(knowledge) which should be measured in application.
jim d
April 15th, 2009
11:23 am
Reality 2
my faith in parents to make choices is based on an interesting fact I’ve heard many times while setting in higher level school meetings. That being that “95% of the problems are caused by the same 5% of students.”
That being said we can then conclude that 95% of parents are at least doing a fair to decent job of raising their children. what I have found in the past to be even more interesting is that the 5% figure is also one often bandied about as roughly being the percentage of students that are actually retained in any given year. (pre OR post CRCT)
Assuming this may be a pattern that would repeat–we could then assume we would see roughly 5% of parents incapable of making an informed choice. and to be quite frank, I don’t really give a rats behind about them.
ScienceTeacher671
April 15th, 2009
8:22 pm
Ever done any reading about the voucher program Congress funded in D.C.? (It’s been in the news recently because the funding has been discontinued; some people think it’s hypocritical for the president & congress to send their own children to private schools but deny less wealthy students the same opportunity.)
Anyway, researchers studying the program found that the kids in the very worst schools in DC were the least likely to be applying for and using the vouchers – the researchers hypothesized that the parents of those children were either unwilling or unable to negotiate the paperwork hurdles involved with applying for vouchers and private schools.
ScienceTeacher671
April 15th, 2009
8:40 pm
If the DOE ever raised the cut scores so that passing the CRCT meant that the student had really mastered the standards…
And if the General Assembly removed the loopholes that allow students who don’t pass the CRCT to be promoted anyway…
Who do we think is going to holler loudest?
The teachers? The administrators and school boards whose schools don’t make AYP and who need to find something to do with all the students who can’t be promoted yet?
Or the parents whose children “just don’t test well” even though they are very smart and make good grades?
Math Teacher
April 16th, 2009
12:20 pm
So in summary… standardized tests are essential tools for academic accountability… but are being so politically hamstrung by artificially low cutoff scores and social promotion that they are currently ineffective, despite their usefulness in predicting future underachievement.
teach1
April 17th, 2009
12:47 pm
jim d -Using your same analogy, 95% of the teachers are doing a great job! It’s that other 5% giving us a bad name!
jim d
April 17th, 2009
1:55 pm
teach1,
True that
Pjj3
April 18th, 2009
7:22 am
To: ScienceTeacher671
And if the General Assembly removed the loopholes that allow students who don’t pass the CRCT to be promoted anyway…
A freshman legislator DID indeed try this sesssion. See below for information on HB 501 introduced by Rep. Rick Austin (R-Demorest). The bill was bogged down in the politics of the DOE.
HB 501 ensures that first and second grade students build the educational base necessary to succeed in later grades by adding these two grades as retention years for the Criterion-Referenced Competency Test.
Currently, Georgia students are required to pass the CRCT in order to be promoted in the third, fifth and eighth grades. However, many school systems continue to socially promote failing students despite this requirement.
“Georgia already mandates that first through eighth graders take the test,” Austin said. “By leaving the first checkpoint until the third grade, unprepared kids advance too far. By the time they fail the third grade exam, it is too late for them to get the foundation they need to be successful.”
He said that promoting children who are not educationally ready sets them up for greater failure in the future.
HB 501 – Educational programs; placement and promotion policies for grades one, two, four, six, and seven; provisions
First Reader Summary
A BILL to be entitled an Act to amend Part 12 of Article 6 of Chapter 2 of Title 20 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to effectiveness of educational programs, so as to provide for placement and promotion policies for grades one, two, four, six, and seven; to provide for documentation of promotion decisions; to provide for data to the State Board of Education regarding students failing the criterion-referenced assessments in certain grades; to provide for a timetable for implementation; to provide for related matters; to repeal conflicting laws; and for other purposes.
ScienceTeacher671
April 18th, 2009
10:31 pm
Thanks, Pjj3. I agree that “promoting children who are not educationally ready sets them up for greater failure in the future” – and catching them that early would be in the spirit of RTI as it is meant to be implemented.
Angry Parent
April 23rd, 2009
11:23 am
So what happens to the kid who gets A’s and B’s all year, exceeds some subjects on the CRCT, but has math anxiety, ADD has a 504 in place, but gets physically sick with the anxiety of these tests and blanks. Flunks test but has great grades. How will retaining this student in the same grade help the student?
ScienceTeacher671
April 23rd, 2009
6:31 pm
Angry Parent, I am guessing that the student in question took the test with 504 modifications in place?
It is *possible* that the math anxiety is caused by poor math skills, especially if the student is fine in other subjects. How did the student do on the math portion of the ITBS? How many modifications, retests, etc. were necessary for the student to make A’s and B’s all year in math?
What’s going to happen when the student’s test anxiety causes him or her to fail the math portion of the GHSGT and not get a diploma?
ElementaryTeacher
April 24th, 2009
8:32 am
Someone in the state is getting a monetary kickback for the implementation of the CRCT. Hmmm..I wonder where s/he will be vacationing this summer?
Let me change topic for just a beat… our county has done away with the SST (student support team) process and has implemented Tiers. What a joke! It takes forever (and maybe never) for students to get help when every traditional method has been used in assisting students who are in need of critical help. Here is the tie-in to the CRCT… valuable dollars are being spent on CRCT materials when those crucial dollars could be going to hiring teachers to decrease class size. Thus providing more individualized instruction to students who are in desperate need of it. I can’t begin to implement remedial, on-grade level, and enrichment instruction to the BEST of my ability because 28 – 30 5th graders in one classroom is just too many!
I love teaching! But, the hoops and dog and pony shows teachers are required to jump through are the ruination of instruction. The CRCT is just one aspect of the crisis our educational system is facing.
ScienceTeacher671
April 26th, 2009
10:11 am
Elementary Teacher, don’t you wish some of the DOE officials who are telling us how to do these things would come down and demonstrate?
Angry Parent
April 28th, 2009
3:38 pm
In the past student has always passed math portion of CRCT. In 5th grade she exceeded it and I credit some of that to having a good teacher. Last year the mods for the test were forgotten about and she didn’t answer the last twenty questions of the math test (ran out of time) and got an 817 on it.
To answer your question as to what will happen on the High school test, I don’t know. My point being one test should not be the whole measure of a school year.
Oh and how mnay re-tests did it take her to get the A B average in Math? None that I know of. Did she fail some tests this year? Yes. Did she get 100’s on others? Yes.
On the ITBS she ranked in the average range.
ScienceTeacher671
April 29th, 2009
5:15 pm
Angry Parent, if the student made an 817 on the math test, she didn’t flunk it, and given the other information you provided, she seems to be working on grade level.
In fact, it sounds as if, had the mods been followed correctly, she might have even “exceeded” in that area, given time to finish all the questions.
jeffrey ross
May 16th, 2009
5:54 pm
I don’t think that we should have the CRCT because its alot of pressure on the kids and then they got to work hard on there last week test to go to the high school. george bush has mess up everthing…
jeffrey ross
May 16th, 2009
6:00 pm
I am an 8th grader trying to go to the 9th grade but, I mest the math by 1 or 2 points I got 1 797 on the math realy think they should get rid of the CRCT.
Debbie Rice
March 17th, 2010
7:03 pm
I don’t live in GA, but I can tell you as a grandmother and educator my grandson is suffering. He is telling me his teacher says if he does not pass this test he has to repeat 3rd grade. hogwash. first of all these test should be done at the beginning of the school year to see where the deficits are, then go from there. teachers can then build their curriculm around the classroom needs. you are putting strain on the teachers, students and parents for what??? It’s not bad enough his dad is fighting a war, now he is so stressed out he has nightmares and hates school. come on people this is why we are in education to help children learn to be great leaders of our future. It makes me mad when politics gets envolve with learning.